Why does everyone hate Mage Knights so much?
Mike D
Oh ya and "cause like...they're lame and stupid" isn't what I'm looking for.
I really don't want to turn this into a giant flamewar...I'm honestly just
wondering what flaws people see in the game. Personally I think it's a
really fun, cheap, easy-to-learn, fast-paced game where the fun is in
building good armies and seeing how they matchup to your buddy's best
armies.
Also, could you mentioned if you've actually played Mage Knights yet. I find
a lot of people that are hard on it have not actually even tried it yet.
Again, let's stay civil. I don't want to turn this into a giant 'Mage Knight
sucks-fest'. Because in the end, they're all just games...meant to
entertain.
nadin brzezinski
The game is not at issue here, but the Collectible part... maybe you do not
remember Magic, I do.
When I got into the game it was jsut into Unlimited, and one of the early
releases.,
It was a fast paced game that we all enjoy. Then the arms race and ahem,
expantion began. I got out when a kid put fifty bucks on a white mox I had just
brought out... and taht was by the Dark if I remeber correctly.
CMGs have the same problem. I mean check the prices for some of these silly
things on line.
Now comes my other problem with it. You wee I get as much enjoyment from
painting an army as fielding one. Which means I will spend a lot of time on
line troops for my Warhammer or I-Guard or BattleMech forces... and MK, well
does not have the detail as in the minis.
Yes the game is simple, but comparing it to chess does chess an injustice.
Now to be quite honest, lets be honest here are you a Warlord?
Now that i have asked this... let me state this, yes MK will be around for a
while, how long I don't know. It is the first CMG and just like Magic it will
sputter along,
Now lets see at the CCG explosion, yes it crested some years back. At one point
we had over 600 CCGs, and I can alraedy see that we will probably have at least
50-60 of them, from multiple companies, in the next 24 months. No, not clicky
base, that was truly just like Magic, a copyrighted system, but others will
come wtih other systems.
After that, CMGs will shrink and have their followers, just like CCGs do today,
where we have some left... and every so often we have a flash in the pan CCG,
so we wil have a flash in the pan CMG.
Those of us who like other aspects of the hobby will not give the CMG phenomema
the time of day. Of course with the two more coming next year, Superheores from
WK and BattleTech from WK, and the "explosive expansion of the company" I
cannot help but wonder if we are seeing WK pull a Steve Jackon and they will be
forced to scale down in oh two years.
Steve Jackson survives this every so often, but I have to wonder, or if Hasbro
(or Mattell) will see this as a next quick get rich scheme and absorb them,
just as WoTC becamse a division of Hasbro.
Nadin Brzezinski
Freelance Writer
http://hometown.aol.com/nadinb/myhomepage/profile.html
MW 3 lifepaths and other goodies
http://hometown.aol.com/nadinb/myhomepage/rant.html
Thomas Pichler
> Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>
Well, the "collecting" bit is the first reason: MK is too damn expensive to
collect... and since I've done CCGs and know how you tend to start collecting
whether you can afford to or not, there's no way, no how I'm starting MK.
> Personally I think it's a
> really fun, cheap, easy-to-learn, fast-paced game where the fun is in
> building good armies and seeing how they matchup to your buddy's best
> armies.
>
It's fun and easy to learn, judging from demonstration events. It is anything
but cheap when you want particular figures - hell, for the money I'd have to
shell out for 2 of those MK uniques I like I could actually get a Warhammer
army.
This means MK="more expensive than Warhammer", and we all know "more expensive
than Warhammer"="too damn expensive".
> Also, could you mentioned if you've actually played Mage Knights yet. I find
> a lot of people that are hard on it have not actually even tried it yet.
>
Tried. Demonstration game. Game's not bad - it's the price that scares me. Oh,
that, and...
I got to see the MK figs when they first appeared and quite frankly, the dwarves
looked like somebody dumped them in a bucked of grey, and then did a piggly pink
highlight on the face and added those strenght colors.
In other words, they looked slightly worse than painted by a fourth grader [yes,
I had a fourth grader paint a fig recently. Yes, compared to the first run of MK
figs, it looked fabulous.]
I know, the rares/uniques looked better than the commons from the very start,
and I know the quality of the paint jobs has improved (considerably) since - but
the first impression stuck, and along with the price has kept, is keeping and
will keep me from ever buying MK figs.
Thomas
Jim Cowling
>Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
It's pretty flawed. I've played it, and didn't think it was all that shit-hot.
The combat dials aren't nearly as useful as they initially apear to be;
picking up the figure, clicking the dial and replacing the figure is more work
than making a pencil mark on a piece of paper.
The gameplay appears "quick and dirty", but isn't. Like Magic: the Gathering,
there are a number of strategies that work extremely well -- but only if you
invest a whole pile of money into acquiring the rare and powerful miniatures
to pull off the tactic. Essentially, the game rewards those who spend a lot of
money.
The plastic miniatures themselves are poorly sculpted and poorly painted.
Unfortunately, Mage Knight is not bringing more players into miniatures gaming
-- it is drawing people from the miniatures gaming hobby into Mage Knight;
kids can now play a miniatures game without "all that painting hassle."
My opinion? Mage Knight isn't even really a miniatures game, because it
includes so few of the elements of true miniatures games.
I bought a case of boosters, auctioned off the rares, and sell the remaining
singles on consignment at my local shop. I've made several hundred bucks,
which I've used to buy *real* miniatures. :)
--
"Gussie it up all you want, Trebek."
Lord Bob
>First off I tired it at the store. Good way to save my money.
>
Always good.
>The game is not at issue here, but the Collectible part... maybe you do not
>remember Magic, I do.
>
Yea, that's my beef. It IS an easy game to play, and fun enough. But
never actualy being able to get what you want without plopping down a
pile of cash into boosters is a drawback. In BTech, I buy the minis I
think look cool, or once in a while I go hunting for a specific one.
And I can get exactly what I want; no 'luck of the draw' involved.
>It was a fast paced game that we all enjoy. Then the arms race and ahem,
>expantion began. I got out when a kid put fifty bucks on a white mox I had just
>brought out... and taht was by the Dark if I remeber correctly.
>
Ug, yea. I quit 'round Ice Age.
>Now comes my other problem with it. You wee I get as much enjoyment from
>painting an army as fielding one. Which means I will spend a lot of time on
>line troops for my Warhammer or I-Guard or BattleMech forces... and MK, well
>does not have the detail as in the minis.
>
It's how I started BTech(and 40K); seeing this awesome looking mini in
the store, and buying it to put it together and paint it up. Then,
after a while, I get around to finding the rules and actualy playing
the game.
Bob
Blue Weasel
I did the magic thing, and fully intend to never get into another CCG.
However, as a battletech player that does not have his head up his ass,
I'm going to take a look at the new click version coming out. If this is what
the bulk of the people are going to play, then I might go ahead and get into it.
Time will tell.
Might sell a few spare battledroids and unseen to fund the game.
Might buy a booster box and sell the rares I don't want to build up
some factions...who knows.
Tom Bryant
Good question. I believe the answer comes in three sections listed
below:
1.) MINIATURES QUALITY: The quality of the minis in Mage knight is not
as crisp as many other companies metal miniatures and that is a
stumbling block to some. I don't think the manufacturing quality is THAT
low, especially if you repaint them.
2.) THE PAINT JOB: Whether they are actually done by hand, or painted
by machine, it makes no difference, they ain't that good folks. Many of
us can do better. If whiz kids wanted to get cute they could sell
unpainted or "nude" versions of their minis for collectors and painters
to work on. They could sell them at close to, but not going over the
original price per packs, doing the collectible thing with them and
still make some bread off the minis buying public.
3.) THE WHOLE CGM CONCEPT: Ever heard of "Cardboard Crack" I.E. Magic
the Gathering, Poke'mon, etc.? Well many of us who have seen this go
through fear that is what will happen to miniatures gaming as well. I'm
frankly kind of surprised GW and Foundry haven't jumped on the bandwagon
for this one already.
Good question Mike. I wish you luck in your search for answers.
Tom Bryant
President, HMGS-GL
Martin Evans
Thomas wrote:
"I got to see the MK figs when they first appeared and quite frankly,
the dwarves looked like somebody dumped them in a bucked of grey, and
then did a piggly pink highlight on the face and added those strenght
colors. In other words, they looked slightly worse than painted by a
fourth grader [yes, I had a fourth grader paint a fig recently. Yes,
compared to the first run of MK figs, it looked fabulous.] "
Who paints MK figs? Machines? Sweatshop girls? Elves?
Men of Harlech onto glory
This shall ever be your story
Keep these fighting words before ye
Cambria (Welshmen never) will not yield
---Men of Harlech, “Zulu” (1964) (Traditional Welsh song with lyrics
altered by Hollywood)
Mike D
I was going to try and respond to everyone individually, but got lazy...so
here goes.
First off, I'm not a "Warlord". I play the game with a friend and my
girlfriend and that's it. I'm actually not part of the local MK scene at
all(don't even know if there is one...all the Warhammer players scare them
all away before we can band together hehe).
I totally understand why a lot of you are turned off by the collectable
aspect of it. I played Magic when it first came out and then quickly lost
interest when a thousand expansions were released. Actually I stopped
playing around the time Ice Age came out too (like someone else mentioned).
Basically what I gather about Mage Knights is that basically it's more for
people who aren't already playing a game like Warhammer or BattleTech. What
initially drew me to the game was the idea of not having to read a huge
manual and then find x number of friends to try and teach it to...a friend
and I went in and bought some the day it came out and tried a game right
there in the store...we liked it...and we've been hooked ever since.
Sure some of the figures are ugly, but I get 4-5 of them for less than what
it would cost me for a single metal figure. I think the fact that I don't
play other miniatures games makes a huge difference too(nothing to compare
the quality to really). I think of them more as little toys that can bash
each other. I really don't think it's fair to compare MK figs to other
games. As far as I'm concerned they're not really in competition with each
other...
I think there are a lot of people that don't have the patience to paint
metal figures too. I don't consider myself a 'hardcore' gamer (unless we're
talking about PC games hehe) so I don't have time to invest in a larger more
complicated game (learning the rules, choosing armies to buy, painting them
all, playing a match that takes 6 hours etc.)
One thing that really seperates MK from Magic when it comes to collecting is
the points system. Since you have to each build an army using a set point
limit (100,200,400 etc.) it generally means you're armies are balanced...So
that having the coolest figure doesn't mean you're going to win. I have an
Arcane Draconum, the most powerful unit in the game, but he costs 202
points...a standard game uses 200 points...so he won't even fit! And in a
300 point game the other player could easily have 12+ units to gang up on me
with. All I'm trying to say here is that in magic you can build a 60 card
deck with all the best cards in the game and play against another 60 card
deck that has the worst cards in the game....there's no built in balance
system. Mage Knights has this system and I find that it really helps to
elimate the 'need to get the best card/figure' collecting syndrome...I
usually just buy a booster here and there to see what cool new units I'll
get for new strategies. Maybe it's just because I play it casually rather
than weekly with a tight group of dedicated gamers...
Anyway, I think you all made good points. Now I just wish I could walk into
my local store and buy a booster box of MK without all the Warhammer guys
playing in the back room looking at me like I'm the biggest moron in the
world. I think that since most 'non-gamers' look at us ALL as big geeks and
weirdos we should try and stick together whenever we can, even if we don't
like each others games. :) hehe
Also incase anyone is wondernig...I'm 22 (not 8) and the reference to chess
was only to say that just because something is simple doesn't mean it
doesn't have depth.
"Mike D" <skudf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RJib7.8691$HW.2...@wagner.videotron.net...
Martin Evans
Nadin wrote:
"The game is not at issue here, but the Collectible part...."
That bothers me too. These days, as soon as something makes a big
splash in the gaming world, the company that makes that something starts
sending priority shipments of that something to the Meglomart
franchises, leaving the Mom & Pop hobby shops that originally introduced
that something to the aforementioned gaming world without a product to
sell. Eventually, there won't be enough of anything left for the hobby
stores to sell to stay open. And frankly, I don't care too much for mail
order.
nadin brzezinski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Men of Harlech onto glory
>This shall ever be your story
>Keep these fighting words before ye
>Cambria (Welshmen never) will not yield
>
>altered by Hollywood)
>
>
Not quite elves, but the swatshop coimment is close to the mark. They are
produced in China, which opens a whole other can of worms.
Nadin, who is walking away from the open can... now running away!
Thomas Pichler
> 2.) THE PAINT JOB: Whether they are actually done by hand, or painted
> by machine, it makes no difference, they ain't that good folks. Many of
> us can do better.
Just for the sake of argument, I'd be surprised if there was anyone regularly
reading the NG that can't. Just look at the first figs you ever did and tell me:
ddn't those have more detail than the MK figs already?
> If whiz kids wanted to get cute they could sell
> unpainted or "nude" versions of their minis for collectors and painters
> to work on. They could sell them at close to, but not going over the
> original price per packs, doing the collectible thing with them and
> still make some bread off the minis buying public.
>
Would you really pay the original price for 10 unpainted plastic figs?
I myself wouldn't, it's fairly easy to get 9-10 unpainted high(er) quality metal
figs for about the same price as a MK starter. [Hey, try the Vendel dwarves we had
the posting for just the other day... a lot cheaper than MK, and judging by the
picture on the website, at least as good.]
Thomas
Justin Taylor
Mats Öhrman
> 1.) MINIATURES QUALITY: The quality of the minis in Mage knight is not
>as crisp as many other companies metal miniatures and that is a
>stumbling block to some. I don't think the manufacturing quality is THAT
>low, especially if you repaint them.
How repaint-able are they?
Hmm, wonder if those "click-bases" are available separately somewhere?
--
_
Mats Ohrman E-mail: ma...@lysator.liu.se
dmc
nadin brzezinski wrote in message
<20010805174326...@mb-mq.aol.com>...
Bill Seurer
> 2.) THE PAINT JOB: Whether they are actually done by hand, or painted
> by machine, it makes no difference, they ain't that good folks. Many of
> us can do better.
But MOST people probably can't. I really don't think that Whiz Kids
cares that much about "traditional" miniature gamers, they are trying
for new markets. People like me for instance. I *love* to play with
miniatures but I don't have the patience to paint them, don't have the
skill to paint them, and definitely don't have the time to paint them.
I suppose I could play with unpainted ones but that's a hundred times
worse than the "bad" job on the Mage Knight figures. So the only time I
normally get to play is once or twice a year at conventions if then.
And BTW, I don't care squat for the collectable aspect. I just bought
some booster packs, downloaded and printed the rules and special
abilities card, and am having fun playing with those. If I don't get
the "good" ones, well, who cares?
--
Bill Seurer Work: seurer AT us.ibm.com Home: Bill AT seurer.net
http://www.seurer.net/ (replace " AT " with "@" to email me)
Martin Evans
Nadin wrote:
"Not quite elves, but the sweatshop comment is close to the mark. They
are produced in China, which opens a whole other can of worms."
I was afraid somebody was going to say that. I've been trying to get
the hotels here in Las Vegas to stop using goodies made in China for
years, but without effect. Now this, golly gee.
Men of Harlech onto glory
This shall ever be your story
Keep these fighting words before ye
Cambria (Welshmen never) will not yield
---Men of Harlech, “Zulu” (1964) (Traditional Welsh song with lyrics
altered by Hollywood)
Lord Bob
wrote:
>Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>
I play, but I don't collect. So here I am, with 50-some useless minis
that I HAD to pay for to get a force I like using, because it's all
grab bag and you never know if what you get will work well together.
If they sold 'em individualy, or there was actualy some way to sub, it
would be just fine. It's that whole 'collectible' part that screws it
over.
Bob
Avatar
: Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
Well that is your right to do so.
: Oh ya and "cause like...they're lame and stupid" isn't what I'm looking for.
: I really don't want to turn this into a giant flamewar...I'm honestly just
: wondering what flaws people see in the game. Personally I think it's a
: really fun, cheap, easy-to-learn, fast-paced game where the fun is in
: building good armies and seeing how they matchup to your buddy's best
: armies.
I don't like it because the miniatures are lousy. The turn system makes
it difficult to enact any real tactical plan due to a serious lack of
action points. I also find it annoying to constantly have to lift the
minis up off the table to turn their bases and then put them back down.
The pushing rules also bugged me.
At first these were all obvious to me while watching friends play, but I
decided to give it a go anyway since my friends were liking it. I didn't
like the way it played, got annoyed with the figs and it just turned me
off totally. I play to have fun and found the game more annoying than
anything else, so I stopped playing...
: Also, could you mentioned if you've actually played Mage Knights yet. I find
: a lot of people that are hard on it have not actually even tried it yet.
A lot can be learned from watching the game. Everything I found annoying
about the game just watching it proved just as annoying when actually
playing as well. So first impressions can be important impressions even
if you are just watching it played.
: Again, let's stay civil. I don't want to turn this into a giant 'Mage Knight
: sucks-fest'. Because in the end, they're all just games...meant to
: entertain.
Agreed. It is just a game. The primary reason the market bears many
different games is because players have different interests. I have too
many issues with mage knight to enjoy it so I don't play it and instead
play the stuff I like. That is what it is all about.
Avatar
Avatar
:
: And BTW, I don't care squat for the collectable aspect. I just bought
: some booster packs, downloaded and printed the rules and special
: abilities card, and am having fun playing with those. If I don't get
: the "good" ones, well, who cares?
This is one thing that never ceases to confuse me. I agree with your
point, but everyone always gets so up in arms about the "collectible
aspect" of games like. You only need to collect if you want to. Hell,
even as a collector I played and placed well in many an early magic
tourney playing decks made totally of common cards. I eventually stopped
buying magic, because the differences in the colors started to fade. Each
had a distinct aspect to it which started to blur as more and more
expansions came out and fewer new card ideas could be found, and cards
from one color would be effectively duplicated in another color to fill in
the gaps. I have, I do believe, 9 different CCGs in my collection and
wasn't forced to "collect" any of them to enjoy playing them all...
People place too much weight on the collectible aspect without realizing
that if its just them and a few friends who buy a bunch of starters and
boosters it doesn't matter if its collectible. Let the folks who want to
pay $200 for a single mini do so, but you can still play the game in your
circle of friends without collecting more than the few minis you buy
initially...
Avatar
nadin brzezinski
Ah the spell flame, how quaint!
I am, any other problems you may have? The fact I do not spend hours editing
this, so I can spend in REAL WORK, matters little, at least to me.
dmc
writing by inpenetrable spelling, that's fine by me. But please, stay calm.
nadin brzezinski wrote in message
<20010806145558...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
nadin brzezinski
>writing by inpenetrable spelling, that's fine by me. But please, stay calm.
>
>
That's all.
And yes I do not edit these posts that heavily. Why? It takes time from "real
work."
Sorry if I do not think that these posts are THAT important.
WolfKeeper
news:3B6E21D6...@muskegon.com:
> If whiz kids wanted to get cute they could sell
> unpainted or "nude" versions of their minis for collectors and painters
> to work on. They could sell them at close to, but not going over the
> original price per packs, doing the collectible thing with them and
> still make some bread off the minis buying public.
They do -- at least my store has about 60 or so of the figures available in
unpainted lead.
- WK
--
e-mail wolfkeeper at mindspring dot com
http://www.wolfkeeper.org
Jim Cowling
>A freelance writer who can't spell - interesting
No, more like a freelance writer who chooses not to put the same kind of
effort into editing her posts that she would put into the stuff she sells.
You idiot.
quicksilv...@hotmail.com
<d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Keep calm. If you want to restrict your ability to communicate via your
>writing by inpenetrable spelling, that's fine by me. But please, stay calm.
>
Troll
QSK
Jeffrey Cherpeski
>
> Sure some of the figures are ugly, but I get 4-5 of them for less than
what
> it would cost me for a single metal figure.
Damn, You sure don't know where to buy minis. I can get a Reaper Mini for
under $3.00. The local store that even carries MK sells boosters for about
the same. I can get a whole lot more lead if I go on-line for the cost of
4-5 boosters.
Ducalguard
My dislike with Mageknight starts with the entire collectability aspect.
I don't like the idea of collectable figures, period. It degrades the game
into the person with the most money gets to play with the best toys kind of
scenario. Its even worse that Mageknight has had success so far, thereby
tempting other companies to try the collectable route. If anyone has ever been
into comics, baseball cards, etc while the whole speculator craze was going on
you'll know why this isn't a good thing. Speculation drives prices up, making
a very artificial market. When the bottom drops out of a speculated market, it
takes a lot of people with it, including stores and companies. Look at the ccg
craze a few years ago. I know of at least 5 stores that were driven by this
craze. All but 1 are now out of business (and thats just locally). They bought
into the craze, lock, stock and barrel and couldn't survive the drought that
the market collapsing has caused.
Then we get into choices. If I want to use, say one of the Dragons (what
are they called, Draconums or something like that?), then I simply want to use
that figure. I don't want to have to buy 40 boxes of boosters to hope that I
would get the figure I want to use, nor do I want to pay inflated prices (ie
$50 or so) for a single figure. Hey, if I want to drop $100 or so to play the
EXACT figures I want to play in a game, I'd much rather spend that money on a
GW game or something where you'll get substance, like 50-100 figures for the
money By making the game collectable it adds an aura that the game really
couldn't stand on its own without forcing the collectability of it.
Also, we have quality as an issue. The figures are really cheap looking.
I mean, really cheap looking. The merchandising surrounding the game is cheap
and there really is little to no background for the game. They spout off how
great it is to play with painted figures. Well, you can now buy prepainted
fantasy figures...prepainted METAL fantasy figures for little more than what
you're paying for the mageknight toys...and yes, I do consider them nothing
more than a mere toys due to quality. Have you seen the giant, dorky plastic
figure storage boxes they make? These reek of the action figure storage boxes
that were so dominant in the 70's and 80's. Then we have the "official"
mageknight mats and terrain pieces. Again, it all has the entire feel of a toy
line that should be sold in the kiddie isle of Toys R Us and not a legitimate
gaming store.
Another reason I have it in for Mageknight was Weismans comments towards
other game systems. Hey, if you're kids are too dumb to learn other games,
sorry...but don't knock the biggest selling system on the block because a)
you're kids couldn't learn it or b) they were too young to try to learn it in
the first place.. The worst way to sell your product is to say that its better
than so and so. Sell the game on its own merits, not because its "easier" than
another system. Weisman, for whatever reason, saw fit to knock Warhammer
Fantasy Battle. God knows why, but when he started spouting off about "all the
info you need to play is on the base" and then find its a lie...well, sorry,
that doesn't float in my book. The reference sheets that accompany Mageknight
are as intense as any reference sheet for WHFB. AND, as everyone who has ever
played WHFB knows....all the info you need to play the game can fit on....gee,
the exact same size sheet as the Mageknight reference sheet. Go figure.
Finally, when I buy into a game system, I buy into it lock stock and
barrel..meaning I want the background, the fiction, the sourcebooks...the
entire universe. I don't play generic miniatures systems because I like
background. WHFB has an incredibly rich background. Chronopia has an
interesting background. Crucible had a promising background. Mageknight got a
4 page mini comic that really made little to no sense.
Have I played the game? Yes, I have. It is somewhat fun but I get a
sense that Weisman and Wizkids are not into selling the game because they want
to because the game is fun but more that they want to because they want to make
a fortune off of it. If they quit the limited edition aspect of it (this
totally reeks of milking a product for all its worth) and started fleshing out
the background as well as started increasing production values on the figures,
etc, I wouldn't be so venomous towards the product. As it stands, I won't buy
any product that spirals into a game of "he who has the most money wins". It
simply not fun to have to go this route.
Doug
woed
them.
I just have no interest in collectable anything. If it was not collectable
I might be interested.
Later,
--
Ryan Fisk
woed at earthlink dot net
Jeremy Reaban
"Ducalguard" <ducal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010807014643...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> >Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and
collecting them.
>
> My dislike with Mageknight starts with the entire
collectability aspect.
> I don't like the idea of collectable figures, period. It degrades
the game
> into the person with the most money gets to play with the best toys
kind of
> scenario.
Bear in mind, I don't know much about Mage Knight. (Just got a couple
starter sets last week, which I why I've been reading this group).
But I apparently know more than you do. While it is collectible, rarer
figures are not necessarily better. And even if they are, they are
worth more points.
95% of the figures can be bought extremely cheaply. The rest are
fairly cheap (except for the Dragons), it's really only the 'Limited
Edition' ones that are really expensive, but they are not really any
better than the cheap ones (and also have higher point values, so
there's a trade off in using them...)
While most sets are random, they also do sell sets that tell you what
is in the box (+1 random figure, I think. But the majority are
described).
And since all the information on the figures stats are available on
the internet, you can simply make take a pen and make a figure
whatever you want it to be...
Some of the figures are pretty ugly (the Rangers for instance), some
are pretty cool looking (I like the Bone Golem and the Trolls), but
most are pretty decent looking for plastic guys. And while the paint
jobs aren't very good, they're much better than I could do....
Another thing, while MK is supposedly for 'kids', I find that it's
mainly kids that have time for the vastly complex and time consuming
games. In my experience, most kids over the age of 10 or so can
figure out virtualy any game. (I used to play SFB when I was a
kid...). It's adults that need quick paced games, since they tend to
have much busier schedules...
And I'm not sure how adults can take some supposedly more 'adult'
games, like Battle Tech, seriously. I mean, giant fighting robots?
Mwhahahahah. Not only do have to use a lot of physics handwaves for
that to make sense, you have to throw away a lot of common sense...
Don't get me wrong, I do have some problems with MK. I have trouble
reading the numbers of the base sometimes (since often the figure
casts a shadow over the numbers), and the click-base is really cheaply
made and often is a pain in the ass to click.
Mack Brewer
<20010807014643...@mb-mv.aol.com>...
<snip>
> My dislike with Mageknight starts with the entire
>collectability aspect. I don't like the idea of collectable
>figures, period.
Fine. Takes all kinds. More than enough non-collectible
games out there for players with your views.
<snips>
>AND, as everyone who has ever played WHFB knows....all
>the info you need to play the game can fit on....gee,
>the exact same size sheet as the Mageknight reference
sheet.
<snip>
I don't mind differences of opinion but this statement is
just plain crap!
I've played a lot of WHFB and no way in hell can you put
the game info needed onto a little double-sided 4'x7" card.
The unending mountains of rules changes and exemptions for
certain races alone (remember the ARMY books?) buries this
non-sensical statement of yours.
>As it stands, I won't buy any product that spirals into
>a game of "he who has the most money wins". It simply
>not fun to have to go this route.
>Doug
This statement highlights the fact that you have no clue how
MageKnight is played or armies are "built".
It is utterly unlike the uber-cheese CCG's on the market
where, yes, for the most part, those with the most money
win because there are no decent checks and balances built
into the deck design rules of the games.
All figures in MK have a point cost, unlike the CCG's, and
this point cost reflects their ability in battle.
If you want to take your $50 Arcane Draconum (202 pts)
up against an 8-15 or more figure army that adds up to the
same points you'll get your head handed to you EVERY time!
I know it's very effectively killing off WHFB and 40k
around here. The only other game I see being played
regularly
is the Seven Seas CCG and Bloodbowl.
Mack
(MageKnight Warlord)
--
Mack Brewer (Canadian, eh!)
Halifax, Nova Scotia, CANADA
---------------------------------------
Commander 40k SM Ground Pounders Chapter
Archon 40k DE Sacred Skulls Cabal
Hopeless Commisar 40k Imperial Guard
Chieftain VOR Razorback Growlers pack
Commander VOR Union army
Phazon Lord VOID Koralon clan
Commander VOID Viridian Marines
Enforcer VOID Junkers Convicts
dmc
better. In fact you're probably the type of person who knows everything.
Sorry.
Jim Cowling wrote in message ...
dmc
nadin brzezinski wrote in message
<20010806153923...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
dmc
quicksilv...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<3b6f104c....@news.bellatlantic.net>...
Bill Seurer
If a "Reaper Mini" costs $3.00 and a MK booster about the same aren't
you getting 5x as many MK figures for the same cost?
Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun
wrote:
>
>Oh ya and "cause like...they're lame and stupid" isn't what I'm looking for.
>I really don't want to turn this into a giant flamewar...I'm honestly just
>wondering what flaws people see in the game. Personally I think it's a
>really fun, cheap, easy-to-learn, fast-paced game where the fun is in
>building good armies and seeing how they matchup to your buddy's best
>armies.
]Horribly limited system with little depth. Being confined to a
clickbase for effects, damage and such as your base mechanic is about
as limiting as playing a RPG where all stats,skills, wounds, damage
results and so on are measured on an closed scale of 1 to 3.
It's not that cheap for the scale of investment they will be pushing
at--collectible formats are a rip off, with balance killing expansiosn
you just have to get a staple feature.
>
>Also, could you mentioned if you've actually played Mage Knights yet. I find
>a lot of people that are hard on it have not actually even tried it yet.
Witnessed a Demo, followed it closely. Recognized it as the bit of
thoughtless crap it was--flashy and shiny enought o catch the
Pokebrats attention, mainly.
>
>Again, let's stay civil. I don't want to turn this into a giant 'Mage Knight
>sucks-fest'
Well, that's hard to avoid, due to the fact that it's quality is
laughable, its limited system, ugly figures, and the despicable
collectible format.
incrdbil
Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun
<d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>A freelance writer who can't spell - interesting
>
>
do you have something useful to contribute other than the lame
spelling flame?
incrdbil
Avatar
:
: My dislike with Mageknight starts with the entire collectability aspect.
: into the person with the most money gets to play with the best toys kind of
: scenario.
This confuses me, because most fantasy/sci fi based mini games are this
way, not just Mage Knight. Take a look at warhammer, want that cool
general riding a dragon in your army then you've got to fork over the cash
for it. If you can't afford it then you don't use it, but the guy on the
other side of the table who could afford it does use it. Its not
different.
The only way the difference comes in is where you might be able to find
that hero on a dragon for warhammer a little cheaper on ebay from someone
selling off their army, while the speculative market in mageknight is as
ludicrous as magic was.
: Its even worse that Mageknight has had success so far, thereby
: tempting other companies to try the collectable route. If anyone has ever been
: into comics, baseball cards, etc while the whole speculator craze was going on
: you'll know why this isn't a good thing. Speculation drives prices up, making
: a very artificial market. When the bottom drops out of a speculated market, it
: takes a lot of people with it, including stores and companies. Look at the ccg
: craze a few years ago. I know of at least 5 stores that were driven by this
: craze. All but 1 are now out of business (and thats just locally). They bought
: into the craze, lock, stock and barrel and couldn't survive the drought that
: the market collapsing has caused.
I'm hardly going to blame the CCG craze for poor business decisions. It
is not surprising that if a store goes completely into the craae in lieu
of any other business angles they will go under when the craze dies.
Those businesses appeared as outlets for the craze and then they were not
useful once it was over...
: Then we get into choices. If I want to use, say one of the Dragons (what
: are they called, Draconums or something like that?), then I simply want to use
: that figure. I don't want to have to buy 40 boxes of boosters to hope that I
: would get the figure I want to use, nor do I want to pay inflated prices (ie
: $50 or so) for a single figure. Hey, if I want to drop $100 or so to play the
: EXACT figures I want to play in a game, I'd much rather spend that money on a
: GW game or something where you'll get substance, like 50-100 figures for the
: money By making the game collectable it adds an aura that the game really
: couldn't stand on its own without forcing the collectability of it.
Dragons are a bad example since they are sold separately, but your point
is well taken.
: Also, we have quality as an issue. The figures are really cheap looking.
: I mean, really cheap looking. The merchandising surrounding the game is cheap
: and there really is little to no background for the game. They spout off how
: great it is to play with painted figures. Well, you can now buy prepainted
: fantasy figures...prepainted METAL fantasy figures for little more than what
: you're paying for the mageknight toys...and yes, I do consider them nothing
: more than a mere toys due to quality. Have you seen the giant, dorky plastic
: figure storage boxes they make? These reek of the action figure storage boxes
: that were so dominant in the 70's and 80's. Then we have the "official"
: mageknight mats and terrain pieces. Again, it all has the entire feel of a toy
: line that should be sold in the kiddie isle of Toys R Us and not a legitimate
: gaming store.
And those prepainted fantasy figures look like they were painted by
someone who wasn't blind as well...;)
They do reek of toys, but so what?? There isn't much less toy like about
the other figures and toy soldiers out there. They have just as much
right to be sold in a gaming store as high priced metal figs do. Makes
sense to support both ends of the spectrum since if one dries up the other
will hopefully keep going.
: Another reason I have it in for Mageknight was Weismans comments towards
: other game systems. Hey, if you're kids are too dumb to learn other games,
: sorry...but don't knock the biggest selling system on the block because a)
: you're kids couldn't learn it or b) they were too young to try to learn it in
: the first place.. The worst way to sell your product is to say that its better
: than so and so. Sell the game on its own merits, not because its "easier" than
: another system. Weisman, for whatever reason, saw fit to knock Warhammer
: Fantasy Battle. God knows why, but when he started spouting off about "all the
: info you need to play is on the base" and then find its a lie...well, sorry,
: that doesn't float in my book. The reference sheets that accompany Mageknight
: are as intense as any reference sheet for WHFB. AND, as everyone who has ever
: played WHFB knows....all the info you need to play the game can fit on....gee,
: the exact same size sheet as the Mageknight reference sheet. Go figure.
Can't say I see anything new in the way it was advertised. Many games
have hit the market as the low cost, better alternative to GW games, but
at the same time those games used the same sales concepts (big box with
rules and a bunch of minis with other minis available seperately) so that
they ended up just looking like silly clones shouting "we're better!" but
looking almost exactly the same in the stores. Mage knight was a little
different in that respect. Makes sense for the game to be sold to the
wargaming impaired, after all, don't ya think??
I do agree, though, that one of the worst ways to sell your product is to
do the "neener! neener!" dance on the competition. Sadly the, "They suck,
so go with us" attitude seems to work exceptionally well in politics...I
guess that was why I wasn't too sad to see Enigma disappear. Their
advertising was directly antagonistic against GW, and their products were
crap with their big selling point being: We're cheaper than those GW
bastards. And you certainly got what you paid for there...:P
: Finally, when I buy into a game system, I buy into it lock stock and
: barrel..meaning I want the background, the fiction, the sourcebooks...the
: entire universe. I don't play generic miniatures systems because I like
: background. WHFB has an incredibly rich background. Chronopia has an
: interesting background. Crucible had a promising background. Mageknight got a
: 4 page mini comic that really made little to no sense.
Then by all means, don't play. I don't. Many people just want a game to
play that is a little more interesting than candyland, but doesn't require
as much thought about the background and history and little details as
warhammer does. The point is, why does Mageknight have to die just
because you don't want to play it?? Let those who want to play it do so.
Its their dollar that is getting spent on the game and not yours. They
are not likely to be the kind fo folks who will get into warhammer anyway
so the wargaming community hasn't lost anything really...
People were this vehement about CCGs as well, all for what?? What is so
bad about someone who doesn't necessarily want to play the same games as
you having a good time??
: Have I played the game? Yes, I have. It is somewhat fun but I get a
: sense that Weisman and Wizkids are not into selling the game because they want
: to because the game is fun but more that they want to because they want to make
: a fortune off of it. If they quit the limited edition aspect of it (this
: totally reeks of milking a product for all its worth) and started fleshing out
: the background as well as started increasing production values on the figures,
: etc, I wouldn't be so venomous towards the product. As it stands, I won't buy
: any product that spirals into a game of "he who has the most money wins". It
: simply not fun to have to go this route.
He who has he most money is not all it spirals down to. I've seen folks
buy a single army pack and a couple of boosters and have all the fun they
had ever asked for and more...No reason to be venomous, mate, just leave
it do its thing and head on over and play the games you like instead.
There just isn't anything worthwhile to gain from hating a game you don't
want to play so much...
Avatar
Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun
wrote:
>In article <RJib7.8691$HW.2...@wagner.videotron.net>, "Mike D" <skudf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>
>It's pretty flawed. I've played it, and didn't think it was all that shit-hot.
>
>The combat dials aren't nearly as useful as they initially apear to be;
>picking up the figure, clicking the dial and replacing the figure is more work
>than making a pencil mark on a piece of paper.
I can see the movement/placement problems already.
"hey, that's not where that figure was before you adjusted it!"
>
Like Magic: the Gathering,
>there are a number of strategies that work extremely well -- but only if you
>invest a whole pile of money into acquiring the rare and powerful miniatures
>to pull off the tactic. Essentially, the game rewards those who spend a lot of
>money.
Well, that's the purpose of a collectible game--reward those who blow
a lot of money, and make sure tactics doesn't frustrate the wealthy
and thick.
>
>
>I bought a case of boosters, auctioned off the rares, and sell the remaining
>singles on consignment at my local shop. I've made several hundred bucks,
>which I've used to buy *real* miniatures. :)
Hmm, possibly the first constructive use ofK figures.
somone was telling me a story about some chain stores that carried
MK--and soon he shelves were filled with torn part boxes, and
eventually the remains were dumped into a bargain bin. Got to love
those collectible games, and the spurts of theft they create.
incrdbil
Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun
<mbr...@psphalifax.ns.ca> wrote:
<snip MK rah-rah-rah>
>
>Mack
>(MageKnight Warlord)
>--
nope, no bias at all here :)
incrdbil
Walt O'Hara
not a player or collector, but hey, if some bored kid wants to sell me
a fistfull of some half decent fantasy figures for a couple of bucks,
just because they have YELLOW daubs of paint on 'em instead of RED
daubs of paint, what the heck?
I rather like the MK:Lancer minis... and am actively trying to acquire
anyone's "commons" for Soaring Crossbowmen and Skorpem
Gunners/Crossbowmen. Why? Because I can use them for a fantasy
tactical game I'm working on and I think they look really neat. Will
I probably have to repaint them? Yep. So what? The base figure is
great.
V/R
Walt
Mack Brewer
<3b70031e...@usenet.flinthills.com>...
None here either, eh? from the big GW fanboy!
:-)
and I see from your prior post you're still calling
the Pokemon players "Pokebrats". Shows YOUR "impartial"
opinion pretty well to everyone.
It's pretty amazing how much you digress from your
informed and excellent posts on the Warhammer newsgroup
to your mindless badmouthing of other games on this
group. Is MageKnight slowly killing off WHFB and 40K where
you game too?
Just like it is here?
Mack
MageKnight Warlord AND Pokemon Gym Leader
Jim Cowling
>I don't believe it's idiocy to express an opinion; but maybe you know
>better. In fact you're probably the type of person who knows everything.
>Sorry.
If you'd been here for more than the few weeks since your mommy bought you a
computer, you'd have learned that I *do* know everything. Now run along.
--
"Gusie it up all you want, Trebek."
Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun
<mbr...@psphalifax.ns.ca> wrote:
>>nope, no bias at all here :)
>>incrdbil
>
>None here either, eh? from the big GW fanboy!
Hmm, thanks for demonstrating that you really know nothign about
me--at all.
>:-)
>
>It's pretty amazing how much you digress from your
>informed and excellent posts on the Warhammer newsgroup
>to your mindless badmouthing of other games on this
>group.
Mindless badnmouthing? It's a deserved badmouthing of a poor game--at
least in comparison to miniatures games. Compared to Candyland,
chites and Ladders, it comes off better.
Is MageKnight slowly killing off WHFB and 40K where
>you game too?
>Just like it is here?
No--the game locally is a Fad that's already done. not just at the
game shops--went by Hastings, where dust is gathering on the MK stock.
>
>
>
>
incrdbil
nadin brzezinski
>:-)
>
>and I see from your prior post you're still calling
>the Pokemon players "Pokebrats". Shows YOUR "impartial"
>opinion pretty well to everyone.
>
>It's pretty amazing how much you digress from your
>informed and excellent posts on the Warhammer newsgroup
>to your mindless badmouthing of other games on this
>group. Is MageKnight slowly killing off WHFB and 40K where
>you game too?
>Just like it is here?
>
>Mack
>MageKnight Warlord AND Pokemon Gym Leader
>
>
seeing it move out like hot cakes. Maybe in your area it is, not here. I think
it did, for all of two weeks.
What's more, we have more WHFB players right at the moment than we have had in
a good while, including some kids that perish the thought got MK, and are using
some of their models to play WHFB with... We are all slowly teachign them how
to paint and how to measue and how to think.
Then again somebody is using a 1\72 scale Warhammer (Macros model) to stand in
in a game of 40K for a Dreadnough. So no they are not killing other games...
what they are havung is a heck of a problem finding table space.
But yeah, you will push this, that is your job. I am out of the game promotions
business, though will push CAV and other games since I do need targets!
I happen to like tactical games that do not involve the spending of large
ammonths of cash. Learned that with Magic, remember that one? Don't you? And as
to the comment of that Army General in Warhammer, I can at least know when I
choose to buy it form GW that the thing is indeed inside the box.
So yes, the faction boxes have helped to ease some of that grab bag problem...
whatever!
The point is, I will not suport a company that lied and deceived their fans.
Martin Evans
Incrdbil wrote:
"somone was telling me a story about some chain stores that carried
MK--and soon he shelves were filled with torn part boxes, and eventually
the remains were dumped into a bargain bin. Got to love those
collectible games, and the spurts of theft they create."
Friend of mine has a comic book store. He flatly refuses to carry any
comic or magazine that comes packaged with CCG cards. That's because the
little (and not-so-little) card hustlers think nothing of slicing the
poly bags open, and then stealing the cards. Right now, he has hundreds
of dollars worth of product just sitting around gathering dust because
of these thefts.
Men of Harlech onto glory
This shall ever be your story
Keep these fighting words before ye
Cambria (Welshmen never) will not yield
---Men of Harlech, "Zulu" (1964) (Traditional Welsh song with lyrics
altered by Hollywood)
DDR
: ... Is MageKnight slowly killing off WHFB and 40K where
: you game too?
: Just like it is here?
That was one of the most incredible sights at GenCon this year...
The WizKids booth was right next to the GW booth, and the GW booth
had one or two empty demo tables, while the WizKids demo tables were
jam-packed with people wanting to play.
WizKids is gonna take all of GW's business away...
--
DDR
Jeremy Reaban
"DDR" <d...@rac1.wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
<snip>
> That was one of the most incredible sights at GenCon this year...
> The WizKids booth was right next to the GW booth, and the GW booth
> had one or two empty demo tables, while the WizKids demo tables were
> jam-packed with people wanting to play.
>
> WizKids is gonna take all of GW's business away...
But that's because only small children (MK's fanbase) can afford to go
to GenCon...
Seriously, I think it's really 2 different markets. I don't think MK
will ever be played by the hard core mini gamer, not just because of
the elistism (which does play a big role), but because it doesn't meet
their needs. A lot of mini gamers love to spend hours and hours and
hours painting their figures. Some don't even play games with them,
just paint.
quicksilv...@hotmail.com
<d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Okay ace, you post a obviously flamatory comment and then
expect not to be called a troll? Is your name Eric Setzer by any
chance?
And I really must congratulate you on your 'three dollar words' did
your Mommy buy you a thesaurus for your birthday?
QSK
Ducalguard
>just plain crap!
>I've played a lot of WHFB and no way in hell can you put
>the game info needed onto a little double-sided 4'x7" card.
Actually, you can put all the info you need nice and neatly on a typical 8-1/2
X 11 sheet of paper that prints out from Army builder...including the special
rules.
>The unending mountains of rules changes and exemptions for
>certain races alone (remember the ARMY books?) buries this
>non-sensical statement of yours.
Give it time and you'll be eating your words. As is the case with any game, as
more expansions come out the rules get more and more complex otherwise they
stagnate. Remember, no rules system is perfect and this alone makes for
numerous changes over time. Magic, as it stands now, is a lot different than
the simple game it was when it first came out. I honestly don't think I would
be able to figure out the newest Magic game without a bit of work. I honestly
do not have a problem with WHFB nor do the people that play it around here,
including a lot of young kids.
>This statement highlights the fact that you have no clue how
>MageKnight is played or armies are "built".
I perfectly understand how the game plays and how armies are built. For gods
sake I picked up a box and read the rules and played it. I also understand
that sales locally are driven 100% by pure collectors who shuck the so called
"worthless" figures into the trash when they open the boosters. The game
simply does not get played locally nor does it get supported beyond pure sales.
>I know it's very effectively killing off WHFB and 40k
>around here. The only other game I see being played
>regularly
>is the Seven Seas CCG and Bloodbowl.
Great for your area. Glad to find it has a niche somewhere. Here, the tables
are dominated with WH40K and WHFB games. I'm not saying the game doesn't have
a market but it doesn't dominate the market in any sense of the word. I'd say
that your words are a bit more biased than most other players as you actively
promote the game for whatever reason. I was a Target games promoter and I sure
as heck wouldn't try to tell everyone that Warzone and Chronopia were 100%
better than other systems. I liked what they offered (the D20, the alternate
activations, etc) and simply let players decide. The rules are different
enough between the two that I feel they would sell themselves. Weissman, in
his interview, took to WHFB bashing and you can bet if/when they get to doing a
sci-fi game he'll probably try to bash WH40K. Its almost like he has envy of a
company the sheer size and scope of GW. Mageknight isn't a bad game per se',
but the collectability aspect of it completely blows the game as a viable
option for myself right out of the water. Ask yourself this...if the game is
so fantastic and such a wonderful game why is it they made it collectable?
Could it be to get the people to continually come to the well to get new
"water" as it were in the form of figures they actually WANT to play instead of
the random crap you may get thrown in? Collectable anything has a set lifespan
because people who collect it finally get to the point where they no longer
have any desire to collect it. In the end, if you don't have a solid, firm
base of customers...not the collectors, mind you...then you'll get to the
downside of the curve where your returns begin diminishing.
Doug
Ducalguard
>in
>a good while, including some kids that perish the thought got MK, and are
>using
>some of their models to play WHFB with... We are all slowly teachign them how
>to paint and how to measue and how to think.
Did you check out the 40K tourney at Gencon. It was absolutely brimming with
people. What a great turnout. I have seen MORE people get into 40K and WHFB
in the last year than ever before. Funny thing was, the whole Mageknight
tourney they ran at Gencon (storyline touney) had quite a few empty tables most
of the time, well over half the allocated tables. I think at a max there were
12-15 tables running during the MK tourney and I'm being generous there. Sure,
WK did a brisk bunch of demoing at their booth, but so did GW with theirs. The
funny thing was that there always seemed to be a big line at the GW booth to
purchase but the WK booth didn't. I'm not saying they didn't make money, I'm
sure they made a lot, but they also have a long way to go to have the volume of
sales of say, GW or even WOTC.
Doug
Ducalguard
>The WizKids booth was right next to the GW booth, and the GW booth
>had one or two empty demo tables, while the WizKids demo tables were
>jam-packed with people wanting to play.
>
>WizKids is gonna take all of GW's business away...
>
Really? Gee, I couldn't get into a GW demo because they were always packed. I
got into 7 Mageknight demos in 2 days. No, I didn't like the game that much,
but for the cost of the convention, I'm always up for getting as much free
stuff as you could get. And getting free metal figs for killing them and
getting free plastics to try to kill them...well, free is free.
Doug
Martin Evans
Jeremy wrote:
"A lot of mini gamers love to spend hours and hours and hours painting
their figures. Some don't even play games with them, just paint."
The only "pure" hobby shop that we have left here in Las Vegas caters
to those mini painters. Great place! It is where I spend way too much
free time. It also carries MK figures, and they do okay, but MtG and
Pokemon outsells it by huge margins.
MK could do well by putting out unpainted metal figures, and rules for
a smarter MK game.
Then they could sell paints, brushes, little tools, and complete the
circle :)
Martin Evans
Doug wrote:
"I'm always up for getting as much free stuff as you could get. And
getting free metal figs for killing them and getting free plastics to
try to kill them...well, free is free."
Free is good. I like free. I think that Whizkids should give every
Classic BTer a free Clickytech starter set so we can see what they're up
to (Stackpole: "Waaaah, what do you mean there's no money left in the
budget for my Lexus!") :)
nadin brzezinski
>
>--
>DDR
No they are not...
And I will tell you why...
GW has very good promos and custoemer serice and we saw this wiht Magic. CMGs
are a buble market, and when they burst they are gonna take some with them.
Magic... that is all I have to say. It is a steady seller but nothing like it
once was. Also the Btech crowd was encouraged to go and try the game.
And to be blunt, it is an entry level game and people will graduate to other
games... sooner or later.
nadin brzezinski
>in the last year than ever before.
Count me in for WHFB. I have always intrigued by Fantasy games... and one local
store blew a sale on all GW, getting a Vampire Counts army, book and codex (no
thiank you, skipped the boxed set), for less than 300 dollars was quite a steal
in my view.
So I will need to buy a couple blisters to round it up, still an army for less
than 400. Right about the numbers floated by WK to get all their models in one
expansion... and I got to choose my models... perish the thought!
Incrdbil_Evil_by_association
I'd liek to see gW have soem real competition to keep them on their
toes. Sadly, WizKids isn't it.
incrdbil
nadin brzezinski
>and where to send their free Phoenix Rising starter?
>
>--Camille.
They have my adress
;-)
That said.... who cares!
John Bear Ross, Hellion Productions
Ouch.
--
John Bear Ross
Owner, Lead Designer, Hellion Productions
http://www.hellionproductions.com
Hellionpr...@earthlink.net
<quicksilv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b706532...@news.bellatlantic.net...
Lord Bob
<acid...@evilnet.net> wrote:
>Watakushi no kioku ga tashika naraba, Martin Evans said the following in
>rec.games.miniatures.misc:
>>
>> Doug wrote:
>> "I'm always up for getting as much free stuff as you could get. And
>> getting free metal figs for killing them and getting free plastics to
>> try to kill them...well, free is free."
>>
>> Free is good. I like free. I think that Whizkids should give every
>> Classic BTer a free Clickytech starter set so we can see what they're up
>
>And how, pray tell, is WizKids going to know who every "Classic BTer" is
>and where to send their free Phoenix Rising starter?
>
We walk into a store, show our BMR(or other such thing, like a
battlaion of 'Mechs), they take down out name, and we walk out with a
starter?
Bob
nadin brzezinski
>
>Next!
>
>--Camille.
All of that as well as impractical, but a hell of a PR move....
Next!
;-)
Lord Bob
<acid...@evilnet.net> wrote:
>Watakushi no kioku ga tashika naraba, Lord Bob said the following in
>rec.games.miniatures.misc:
>
>> We walk into a store, show our BMR(or other such thing, like a
>> battlaion of 'Mechs), they take down out name, and we walk out with a
>> starter?
>
>Silly, uneconomical, and unwieldy as hell.
>
Thanks, I tried.
Bob
Pope Jubal
> Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>
> I really don't want to turn this into a giant flamewar
I am both revolted and intrigued by Mage Knight.
Their first run of figures were both too soft (the plastic bent, tore
and broke far too easily - especially on things like thin guns or
spears) and were apparently painted by deranged first graders with
epilepsy. You also couldn't do any touch up work yourself because the
plastic used by WizKids didn't accept paint well at all.
The cavalry expansion showed a much better production value and their
new charriot and dragon models are actually quite good - with good
paint jobs, good structural stability and good casting (even if they
are too expensive).
I like the idea of being able to play a mini game with no prep work
and no painting necessary. I have an entire army of White Scars for
Warhammer 40K, still unpainted, still unassembled, still waiting
patiently for me to scrounge up the time to at least put them together
and prime them. They won't be painted for a long time to come.
I also like the price of Mage Knight - in the beginning. You can get
a pair of starter armies for $3-$5 each if you look around and have
all the figures you need to play even if you don't have any of the
really rare folks. It's only if you want to start collecting and
building tuned armies that you start to shell out serious money. You
can make a perfectly good army with just 2 starter army sets (I got
the dwarf + golem folks) and you can even win games if you know how to
use terrain and movement to your advantage.
Pope Jubal
Jubal no Oni
---
Just one man's opinion. The prodiction values are still somewhat low,
but getting better all the time.
Avatar
:
: And to be blunt, it is an entry level game and people will graduate to other
: games... sooner or later.
:
Nadin, not sure I totally agree with this point. I do agree that I don't
see whizkids taking away GWs market, but there will mostly likely be some
players who never graduate away from Mage Knight. There seems to be an
expectation in many that quick simple games can't be played anymore once
you start playing something more comprehensive and they really aren't
mutually exclusive like that.
Magic was a prime example with the mini games and the RPGers talking how
once they pulled those kids into either one of their areas of influence
they'd drop magic and that would be that. Its funny, but as a mini game
and RPGer I still play magic regularly. Its a great thing to play while
waiting for the rest of the crew to show up for the gaming night, because
its quick, simple and self contained. Its pretty likely that many will
keep MageKnigt around for a similar use and keep playing it, though the
fad aspects will probably die away...
Avatar
Martin Evans
You know, as soon as some of the Clickytech players see real live metal
BT figures, and compare them to their cheapo plastic ones, the
Clickytechies are going to want something better....
Jeremy Reaban
"Martin Evans" <Ogre...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7114-3B7...@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> You know, as soon as some of the Clickytech players see real live
metal
> BT figures, and compare them to their cheapo plastic ones, the
> Clickytechies are going to want something better....
Well, you'd think that after seeing a real live PC, Web TV users would
want something better...
Hell, a Web TV can't even play games like a Dreamcast (or even
Saturn), yet people still buy them...
miniwa...@yahoo.com
> Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>
> Oh ya and "cause like...they're lame and stupid" isn't what I'm looking for.
> wondering what flaws people see in the game. Personally I think it's a
> really fun, cheap, easy-to-learn, fast-paced game where the fun is in
> building good armies and seeing how they matchup to your buddy's best
> armies.
>
> Also, could you mentioned if you've actually played Mage Knights yet. I find
> a lot of people that are hard on it have not actually even tried it yet.
>
> Again, let's stay civil. I don't want to turn this into a giant 'Mage Knight
> sucks-fest'. Because in the end, they're all just games...meant to
> entertain.
Actually the mage knight figures are decent and the new metal ones
look pretty good. Its always healthy to see different ideas and
concepts come to the gaming market. It will be interesting to see how
the game and the "click concept" develops.
Mage Knight Gaming World
http://www.heritage-crest.com/rlink.asp?id=14&mid=232
Ducalguard
>look pretty good. Its always healthy to see different ideas and
>concepts come to the gaming market. It will be interesting to see how
>the game and the "click concept" develops.
Yeah, for the sight impaired. I know everyone has their opinions and they're
perfectly entitled to them but as for this statement, I couldn't disagree more.
I've seen more detail on a $1.99 bag of plastic toy soldiers than on a mage
knight figure. Hey, the game may be someones cup of tea and I'm not going to
take that away from them...but the figures just plain suck. Even the metal
figures...for the most part, lack that cool factor...they remind me of the
first offerings from WOTC for AD&D...and even THOSE were better than the
mageknight figures. Its a shame because we've seen Partha produce some of the
best figures on the market and they're completely hindered by the whole
Mageknight concept art.
Jeff
said that shoppers in the old Soviet Union would hope that the stuff
they'd bought had been made on Wednesday--at the beginning of the week
the workers on the assembly line would still be hung over from the
weekend (and the quality would suffer), and at the end of the week, they
just want to bang 'em out to make their quota (and, again, the quality
would suffer).
Scott Leaton
Seriously, though, there's few games I haven't played at one time or another,
and I've had an arseload of Mage Knight figures in my closet for months. The
game just got dull after a while. Everything goes in slow motion, and it's the
same, always the same... Now they're just an investment, growing in value and
getting spider eggs on 'em.
Wish someone would revive Crimson Skies, somehow. I worry it'll be Wizkids, if
it ever happens- unless they start reviving FASA games without the clicky-base
treatment, in which case I'm all about that.
-Scott
Jeff Dee
(snip)
> yes MK will be around for a
> while, how long I don't know. It is the first CMG and just like Magic it will
> sputter along,
Just for the record, Mage Knight was NOT the first CMG.
WarChest came out 1 year earlier.
Hair-splitters might argue that since WarChest figures are
sold individually, it's not really "collectible". But so
are collectible plates. We called WarChest a collectible
miniatures game because players could collect the figures
they wanted. We didn't think it would be necessary to try
and drain our customers' wallets in order to justify using
that term. We have STOPPED using the term because of the
now inescapable negative connotations, but we think that's
a terrible shame.
> Yes the game is simple, but comparing it to chess does
> chess an injustice.
It's also ironic, considering how much more closely
WarChest compares to chess.
-Jeff Dee
--
"It is as morally bad not to care whether a thing is true
or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to
care how you got your money as long as you have got it."
-Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons", 1950
unig...@io.com * http://www.io.com/unigames/index.html
* * * AA #1355 - Knight of the BAAWA since 10/26/99 * * *
Ducalguard
>now inescapable negative connotations, but we think that's
>a terrible shame.
It is a shame...but you do have companies that are more than willing to bend
you over ...all because they apply that term to their product. I recently
talked to a store owner who said he wouldn't be opening any more Mageknight
figs....they opened two cases and didn't get a single unique figure...two
cases. Then someone walks in the store, buys three boxes out of the case they
were putting on the shelf and they get two uniques side by side. If you're
going to have levels of rarity in your product...at least have some kind of
collation to it. Geez, WOTC and Decipher were both lambasted because of
extremely poor collation in their card lines early on.
>> Yes the game is simple, but comparing it to chess does
>> chess an injustice.
WK is trying to take a page out of the Magic ccg book by comparing their game
to chess. For some reason they think by tagging the game as cerebral will
appeal to the masses even more. They're definately crying for as much
attention as they can for the game, knowing full well its probably going to be
a very cyclical game.
Doug
Paul Lesack
>
> You'll have to talk to Microsoft about that. Microsoft owns the Crimson
> Skies property--they always have. FASA had a license from MS to make the
> pen-and-paper version.
>
Actually, it all started with FASA Interactive. That branch of FASA was
sold to/consumed by MS, so that's how they acquired the rights to
Crimson Skies.
I think that was the beginning of the end for FASA.
Paul
Martin Evans
> want something better...
>
> Hell, a Web TV can't even play games like a Dreamcast (or even
> Saturn), yet people still buy them...
Did I ever say I didn't own a PC? Is there some rule someone forgot
to tell me that says I can't have both? Maybe you guys are dumb enough
to want to deal with viruses and crap on a daily basis, but I don't! I
just can't believe you doorknobs sometimes, I really can't...(Get's
up, grabs fedora, leaves room, slams door shut).
nadin brzezinski
>sold to/consumed by MS, so that's how they acquired the rights to
>Crimson Skies.
Nah, Crimson Skies WAS and IS a MS property. They gave FASA the ability to
produce the paper and pencil product.
Lets get this straignt folks.
As to anything else that is speculation... as to what led to what. Some blame
HG for it... I blame it on ohter factors... but lets not go there.
Jeremy Reaban
"Martin Evans" <ogre...@webtv.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> Did I ever say I didn't own a PC? Is there some rule someone forgot
> to tell me that says I can't have both? Maybe you guys are dumb
enough
> to want to deal with viruses and crap on a daily basis, but I don't!
I
> just can't believe you doorknobs sometimes, I really can't...(Get's
> up, grabs fedora, leaves room, slams door shut).
See, you make my point for me. You know a PC is in many ways better,
but you still have reasons for using a Web-TV....
Same with Mage Knight. It's a simple game, and none of the figures
will ever win a prize for their appearance, but people have reasons
for playing it...
(I'd also point out, I've had a computer since the late 70s, and have
been online in various forms since the early 80s. The only time I ever
got a virus was from a disk a friend gave me...they are pretty easy to
avoid. As for crap, well, perhaps you shouldn't use it while you're in
the bathroom...)
Paul Lesack
>
> Nah, Crimson Skies WAS and IS a MS property. They gave FASA the ability to
> produce the paper and pencil product.
http://www.furballmag.com/cs/interview.asp
or
http://extra.gamespot.co.uk/news/2001/01/9205.html
Not that it matters. It was vaguely disturbing to see Microsoft logos on
miniatures blister packs, though.
Paul
nadin brzezinski
>"firewalls". You install them on your PC and they filter out viruses and
>what have you. Surely somebody with your vast technical knowledge has
>heard of these.
>
>--Camille.
>
Camille just lay off your condescending tone.
For the record I DO have an Antivirus and a Firewall runing and I still know
that this is a risky thing to do.
So just lay off him!
Sheesh... camile on the attack again!
nadin brzezinski
Trust me on this one, they were licenced to do the paper and pencil by
Microsoft.
It is a kick ass game and I still have my minis, but I guess the MS logo shuold
have clued you in here. Otherwsie... why would the MS logo be there before the
Computer game out?
And no this is not intended as a flame and no, it does not matter any more.
>http://www.furballmag.com/cs/interview.asp
>or
>http://extra.gamespot.co.uk/news/2001/01/9205.html
>
>Not that it matters. It was vaguely disturbing to see Microsoft logos on
>miniatures blister packs, though.
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
Scott Leaton
still alive... the game was really very elegant, I thought.
I wonder- how long does ownership on unused properties usually last? Is there
a standard time limit, or does it vary?
Just curious!
-Scott Leaton
* * * * *
Writer, Artist, and Eater of Many Fine Pills.
Writer, Fairy Meat- http://www.kenzerco.com/fairy_meat/
Art Director, Starchildren- http://starchildren.co.uk/
"Now there will be violence!"
-Lazarus Churchyard
nadin brzezinski
>there
>a standard time limit, or does it vary?
>
>Just curious!
>
>-Scott Leaton
>* * * * *
>Writer, Artist, and Eater of Many Fine Pills.
>
>Writer, Fairy Meat- http://www.kenzerco.com/fairy_meat/
>Art Director, Starchildren- http://starchildren.co.uk/
>
>"Now there will be violence!"
>-Lazarus Churchyard
>
>
decades actually.
I would have to go look for it (once again) to give you an exact number.
miniwa...@yahoo.com
Greetings Scott,
Yes, Crimson Skies has some great miniatures. Heritage Crest
Miniatures ( http://www.heritage-crest.com ) still has some in stock
for those interested. Who knows though, maybe the market will be
revived. Who officially owns the license currently to produce the
miniatures? Did FASA give it up when they were bought out by WizKids?
I know Microsoft owns the rights for "Crimson Skies" but do they allow
anyone to manufacture the minis anymore?
Crimson Skies Gaming World
http://www.heritage-crest.com/rlink.asp?id=14&mid=522
nadin brzezinski
>I know Microsoft owns the rights for "Crimson Skies" but do they allow
>anyone to manufacture the minis anymore?
>
choose to forget anything related to FASA is... all licences reverted to
Microsoft, which means the minis too.
And yes they are great... I like my Peacemaker
;-)
Martin Evans
Nadin, MSNTV (Formerly WebTV) offers killfiles now on a limited basis :)
Adam Benedict Canning
wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 17:19:42 -0400, "Mike D" <skudf...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Just wondering because I actually really enjoy playing and collecting them.
>>
>
>I play, but I don't collect. So here I am, with 50-some useless minis
>that I HAD to pay for to get a force I like using, because it's all
>grab bag and you never know if what you get will work well together.
>If they sold 'em individualy, or there was actualy some way to sub, it
>would be just fine. It's that whole 'collectible' part that screws it
>over.
Except of course for the Dragon(s and chariots etc.) and the preset
Army boxes. [Oh I forgot there is a random figure in the preset boxes
to go with the 8 specified ones.]
Adam
Mr. Super Evil, Blackheart, Lucky #13
<d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>A freelance writer who can't spell - interesting
>
learn to snip and reply at the end of the post like those of us that
evolved with opposable thumbs and walk without dragging our knuckles
on the ground....
oh yeah... please remember to fuck off on your way out, junior...
Mr. Super Evil, Blackheart, Lucky #13
<d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Keep calm. If you want to restrict your ability to communicate via your
>writing by inpenetrable spelling, that's fine by me. But please, stay calm.
>
/calm
fuck off, fucktard
\calm
Mr. Super Evil, Blackheart, Lucky #13
(Incrdbil_Evil_has_more_fun) wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:30:32 +0100, "dmc"
><d...@sheephaven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>A freelance writer who can't spell - interesting
>>
>>
>do you have something useful to contribute other than the lame
>spelling flame?
it was way past lame inc...
Martin Evans
> been online in various forms since the early 80s. The only time I ever
> got a virus was from a disk a friend gave me...they are pretty easy to
> avoid. As for crap, well, perhaps you shouldn't use it while you're in
> the bathroom...)
My first intro to 'puters was in 1994. I was shown how great they
were for games (Yeah, Dune!) and writing. But that same first week, I
saw what happened when a virus totally destroys a 'puter too. The one
my student built for me is really nice, and I'll be damned if I'm
going to risk it.
BTW, maybe my 'puter knowhow is nearly zilch, but how about I post
the first 100 pages of my postural release manual here? Or the new
sports massage article that makes stereo instructions read like
Reader's Digest? Or maybe even all two dozen pages of my first pop
quiz ("Is a trigger point: A. An area of increased neurological
activity within hypertonic muscle tissue with associated referred pain
patterns and autonomic disturbances...").
Get the point? There's no renaissance men or women left. Have a nice
day folks. I've got some fanny to rub. :-)
Marshall Dragoo
That's the Blackheart I know and love.
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?????? Send me an email, I want to ask some things
about Gencon.
Marshall Dragoo
RGMW regular, bearer of Green Hat#365, loyal member of the CoJ,
terrain god for my local gaming group, veteran BT player, 40k3 vet,
and all-around great guy.
Paul Lesack
> My understanding and that will increasingly disapear as the years pass and I
> choose to forget anything related to FASA is... all licences reverted to
> Microsoft, which means the minis too.
>
> And yes they are great... I like my Peacemaker
>
Well, Dream Pod 9 will be producing Luft Kreig miniatures, which are
pretty similar in concept to CS miniatures, with the added bonus that
they will be in scale with each other. (http://www.dp9.com)
With the design rules and new miniatures, Crimson Skies might just be
moribund rather than dead.
Paul
nadin brzezinski
>moribund rather than dead.
Truth be told no game is ever truly dead.
As long as there is somebody playing it, right?
Geoff Blakey
>nadin brzezinski (nad...@aol.com) wrote:
>:
>: And to be blunt, it is an entry level game and people will graduate to other
>: games... sooner or later.
>:
>Nadin, not sure I totally agree with this point. I do agree that I don't
>see whizkids taking away GWs market, but there will mostly likely be some
>players who never graduate away from Mage Knight. There seems to be an
>expectation in many that quick simple games can't be played anymore once
>you start playing something more comprehensive and they really aren't
>mutually exclusive like that.
>
I play/collect several (read: way too many) CCGs. When Mage Knight came
out. I loved it and got heavily into it. It wasn't cheap and I spent a
fortune.
I got bored with grubby table tops and bought a terrain set from GeoHex
and then went on to getting a the Warhammer Fortress from Games Workshop
to liven up my terrain.
I then decided - hell, I'll paint the MK figures, they do look pretty
crap, so I bought loads of mini-paints.
Half way through painting up my MK figures, and trying so hard to paint
a face onto such shitty blank features, a friend brought me round a few
'real GW' minis and asked if I could fair better on a figure that
actually had features to paint.
I realised what a load of crap the MK figures were...
OK, so the game is easy to learn and fun, but buying the exact 100
figure Warhammer 40K army I wanted cost me a lot less than the grab bag
chances of getting the figures you want for a MK army of only 10
figures.
I graduated onto WH40K in May this year and now have 3000 points worth
of Space Marines and 1500 points worth of Necrons - all now painted.
And you know what....?
The MK stuff is now stuffed in a cupboard, and only sees the light of
day when we need a few figures to represent our D&D game.
--
Geoff
Tom Bryant
Thomas Pichler wrote:
>
> Tom Bryant wrote:
>
> > 2.) THE PAINT JOB: Whether they are actually done by hand, or painted
> > by machine, it makes no difference, they ain't that good folks. Many of
> > us can do better.
>
> Just for the sake of argument, I'd be surprised if there was anyone regularly
> reading the NG that can't. Just look at the first figs you ever did and tell me:
> ddn't those have more detail than the MK figs already?
Uh Thomas, when when did you start painting minis? I've seen some
CRAPPY old Archive and Hinchcliffe mini or worse yet, some of the old
Texas Miniatures lines. There WERE minis that looked worse than some of
MK figs. Mind you that was over 20 years ago...
> > If whiz kids wanted to get cute they could sell
> > unpainted or "nude" versions of their minis for collectors and painters
> > to work on. They could sell them at close to, but not going over the
> > original price per packs, doing the collectible thing with them and
> > still make some bread off the minis buying public.
> >
>
> Would you really pay the original price for 10 unpainted plastic figs?
> I myself wouldn't, it's fairly easy to get 9-10 unpainted high(er) quality metal
> figs for about the same price as a MK starter. [Hey, try the Vendel dwarves we had
> the posting for just the other day... a lot cheaper than MK, and judging by the
> picture on the website, at least as good.]
>
> Thomas
I said close to, not the original price. Heck they might even sell
them at significantly less than original price, say %15-%25 less than
the original "painted" price. Also, the quality of the paint job doesn't
always get bound by chain and shackle to the "quality" of the miniature.
I've seen very nice paint jobs on miniatures of "questionable" quality.
I've also seen crappy quality paint jobs on "kewl" GW/Foundry/etc, etc.
type minis that are supposed to all but insure excellent paint jobs. It
is all a matter so skill, patience and vision.
Tom Bryant
President, HMGS-GL
Jeremy Reaban
"Geoff Blakey" <ge...@gtblakey.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
<snip>
> I graduated onto WH40K in May this year and now have 3000 points
worth
> of Space Marines and 1500 points worth of Necrons - all now painted.
>
> And you know what....?
>
> The MK stuff is now stuffed in a cupboard, and only sees the light
of
> day when we need a few figures to represent our D&D game.
Well, good for you, but the average MK player probably doesn't have
the time and money to spend on buying & painting all those WH
figures...(and ability. If I tried to paint figures, they'd look worse
than the MK stuff. Much worse)
Despite claims that they are incredibly expensive due to their
collectible nature, most MK figures are pretty cheap, averaging around
75 cents each (or so*). WH figures seem to be about $3-6 each, and
that's unpainted.
* Some, like the Storm Golem seem to sell for a lot, as do the Limited
Editions. But if you really want those figures, you desevere to get
screwed a bit, I think, since the Storm Golem seems munchkiny...
Tom Bryant
WolfKeeper wrote:
>
> Tom Bryant <tomb...@muskegon.com> wrote in
> news:3B6E21D6...@muskegon.com:
>
> > If whiz kids wanted to get cute they could sell
> > unpainted or "nude" versions of their minis for collectors and painters
> > to work on. They could sell them at close to, but not going over the
> > original price per packs, doing the collectible thing with them and
> > still make some bread off the minis buying public.
>
> They do -- at least my store has about 60 or so of the figures available in
> unpainted lead.
>
> - WK
>
> --
> e-mail wolfkeeper at mindspring dot com
> http://www.wolfkeeper.org
Mage Knight minis? Gee I didn't know they did that. I thought they
only made plastics. Interesting. You know, another thought about the
crappy quality of MK minis. Could the reason for their "low" quality be
the nature of the base material out of which they are made? As many of
you may be aware, it is rather expensive to make plastic minis for
gaming purposes is because of the molds used. These are made from
hardened aluminum or machine steel and can run from $50,000 to $250,000
per mold. At those prices, if you don't need the highest level of detail
don't add it. Im just wondering if Whiz Kids didn't skimp on their mold
machining costs by going with "simpler" character designs?
Tom Bryant
President, HMGS-GL
WolfKeeper
> Mage Knight minis? Gee I didn't know they did that. I thought they
> only made plastics. Interesting. You know, another thought about the
> crappy quality of MK minis. Could the reason for their "low" quality be
> the nature of the base material out of which they are made?
Not really -- IMHO the lead versions look pretty crappy as well, with
occasional exceptions. Easily the worst quality miniatures at my store as a
whole.
Ducalguard
>occasional exceptions. Easily the worst quality miniatures at my store as a
>whole.
>
>- WK
Which is a real shame because Ral Partha used to make some of the very best
figures on the market. Heck, their last line of Crucible figures were really
good...as are their entire Shadowrun and the old, oop AD&D figures.
Doug
Incrdbil_Evil_by_association
<j...@Xconnectria.com> wrote:
>
>
>Well, good for you, but the average MK player probably doesn't have
>the time and money to spend on buying & painting all those WH
>figures..
Lookin at the serious amounts of money people dump on collectibel
games, that's not neccessarily true. with discoutn stroes and used
minis, you can find a lest costly way to play a GW game. (Several
variosu box armies were just sold by an online store for about
119--normally retailing at 220, which for once ven that deal was
cheaper than buying seperately.
.(and ability. If I tried to paint figures, they'd look worse
>than the MK stuff. Much worse)
It's amazing what you can do if you keep trying. I have no talent at
al. I need two rules to draw stick figures. However, there are plenty
of paitning guides out there that teach just the basics to the point
you can put out decent stuff. I'll never win a contest award, and I
hate the process of painting, but I'm happy with what I put out in the
end
>
>Despite claims that they are incredibly expensive due to their
>collectible nature, most MK figures are pretty cheap, averaging around
>75 cents each (or so*). WH figures seem to be about $3-6 each, and
>that's unpainted.
of course, you choose what WH figures you get, you're not throwing
away the endless "commons, you actually can have the joy of
converting--and proxying is somethign relatively easy to do."
>
>
>* Some, like the Storm Golem seem to sell for a lot, as do the Limited
>Editions. But if you really want those figures, you desevere to get
>screwed a bit, I think, since the Storm Golem seems munchkiny...
that's the entire point of collectible games--make payers pay for
power.
>
>
>
>
incrdbil
Tom Bryant
One question: have you seen any of Easy eight's Battleground WWII
line? That is all I'll say. I like their rules, not their minis.
Tom Bryant
President, HMGS-GL