Inks?
R. Daniel Paddock
On to other newbie type questions...
What exactly are inks? I have heard reference to them numerous times in
miniature related discussions. Are they actual ink? Could I use standard
Higgins and Kohinor inks? How are they used? And finally are they worth it?
Thanks in advance
R. Daniel Paddock
Musket Man
will probably suggest Burnt Siena. Inks should have pigment in them (look
for waterproof acrylic for fluid techniques on the label). Rennaisance Inks
has a wide variety, as should your local artists' supply store.
HTH/YMMV
Musket Man
R. Daniel Paddock <dpad...@pil.net> wrote in message
news:36BF7762...@pil.net...
Andy O'Neill
<dpad...@pil.net> writes
>What exactly are inks?
Roughly what you might imagine from the name.
Acrylic inks are... acrylic based inks..
Others may not be.
>I have heard reference to them numerous times in
>miniature related discussions. Are they actual ink? Could I use standard
>Higgins and Kohinor inks?
Winsor and Newton make water soluble inks which are very useful due to
the lack of surface tension..
I recommend you buy:
WN Nut Brown
Peat
If you paint 20mm+ sized figures, see if you can obtain some of the
Games Workshop flesh wash which has just been discontinued.
Paint this into creases in flesh and onto lips.
Try these and see what you think, you risk $5 or thereabouts...
>How are they used?
Mainly for washes:
Thin and paint into the low-lights of a figure. The stuff gathers in
the lowest bits and darkens em.
You can also mix with acrylics for various effects.
There other more subtle effects, such as glazing, but I'd not worry too
much about that.
For further info:
Find the painting FAQ on the net, read my guide to painting and any
others you can find.
Search through old discussions using dejanews.
Borrow someone's GW 'eavy metal guide to painting.
Drop into a GW shop and ask the staff to train you up and explain
things....
>And finally are they worth it?
Depends on how long your piece of string is.
I use them because I prefer liquid orientated techniques over dry-
brushing ones. IMO the former are faster, produce as good results as
the latter with less effort and less ruined brushes.
It is, however, arguable that dry brushing requires less skill.
Andy O'Neill
www.l-25.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Liverpool Wargames Association
www.l-25.demon.co.uk/LWA.htm
Sheila Davis
> What exactly are inks? I have heard reference to them numerous times in
> miniature related discussions. Are they actual ink? Could I use standard
I've just started painting with inks on some of my figures
(that's painting, not just washing). If your hand is steady
enough, you can get excruciatingly fine details. Unfortunately,
I'm not that good. But I have discovered, that 2-3 coats
of a brighter color on top of a white primer produce a gorgeous
silky texture with the highlights and shadows filled in for
you automatically. This is great for clothes and fur, not recommended
for armour or fleshtones.
BTW, I discovered by accident that Higgins ink will fade in direct
sunlight. I've not encountered the problem with Citadel or
Winsor & Newton (my favorite).
Regards,
Sheila Davis Hewlett-Packard IC Business Division
s...@hpfisew.fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Colorado
Andy O'Neill
writes
> I've just started painting with inks on some of my figures
> (that's painting, not just washing). If your hand is steady
> enough, you can get excruciatingly fine details. Unfortunately,
> I'm not that good. But I have discovered, that 2-3 coats
> of a brighter color on top of a white primer produce a gorgeous
> silky texture with the highlights and shadows filled in for
> you automatically. This is great for clothes and fur, not recommended
> for armour or fleshtones.
Staining techniques with acrylic paints + flow aid or other similar
surface tension recuction agent will produce the same or similar effect.
Try mixing thinned acrylic paint and your Winsor Newton inks.
>
> BTW, I discovered by accident that Higgins ink will fade in direct
> sunlight. I've not encountered the problem with Citadel or
Acrylic and therefore light fast.
> Winsor & Newton (my favorite).
Excellent choice, but don't store your figures in direct sunlight.
Bobby Wong
>> BTW, I discovered by accident that Higgins ink will fade in
direct
>> sunlight. I've not encountered the problem with Citadel or
>Acrylic and therefore light fast.
You might want to spray or varnish your figure with a coat that has a
ultraliolet inhibitor. This anti-uv spray or varnish will protect your
your inked figures and help them from fading. However exposure to direct
sunlight will eventually bleach most paints. Try Lascaux brand of varnish,
found in most better art supply stores.
-
BOBBY WONG PCW...@prodigy.com
Sheila Davis
> 2 or 3 coats?
Yup, that's worked best for me. 1 coat wasn't sufficiently
bright for my tastes.
> Staining techniques with acrylic paints + flow aid or other similar
> surface tension recuction agent will produce the same or similar effect.
> Try mixing thinned acrylic paint and your Winsor Newton inks.
I'll try that, thanks.
> Excellent choice, but don't store your figures in direct sunlight.
I don't usually. The figure in question was on my painting
bench with a nice warm south facing window. Since I'd never
encountered the problem before, it never occurred to me to
protect the figure from the light. Luckily, I was only half
done with it anyway, so another couple of coats of ink and it
was fine again (it's now out of the light).
Andy O'Neill
writes
>> Staining techniques with acrylic paints + flow aid or other similar
>> surface tension recuction agent will produce the same or similar effect.
>> Try mixing thinned acrylic paint and your Winsor Newton inks.
>
> I'll try that, thanks.
Some further thoughts.
In particular, mix with Colour Party Paints (one of these small UK
companies run out of a couple's house).
Their paints are rather an unusual consistency, kind of gooey.
You could also try mixing with acrylic inks, I use peat brown plus the
old style of GW flesh wash to paint in flesh lo-lights.
Hmmm... maybe I mentioned that already. <shrug>
There's an artist product called acrylic glazing medium which winsor
newton do in a tube. You could also try thinning this and mixing it with
the inks.
You know car screen wash?
The blue stuff sold in car stores (eg Halfords) for something like a
pound a litre?
This is designed to reduce surface tension, I think via alcohol solution
in there.
I've also seen this recommended for thinning acrylics used in
airbrushing.
And no, the blue colour does not affect the colour of paints.
Thane
Andy O'Neill <An...@l-25.dont-spam-me.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7af7an$7b$1...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Sheila Davis <s...@fc.hp.com>
> writes
> >> Staining techniques with acrylic paints + flow aid or other similar
> >> surface tension recuction agent will produce the same or similar effect.
> >> Try mixing thinned acrylic paint and your Winsor Newton inks.
> >
> > I'll try that, thanks.
>
> There's an artist product called acrylic glazing medium which winsor
> newton do in a tube. You could also try thinning this and mixing it with
> the inks.
>
> You know car screen wash?
> The blue stuff sold in car stores (eg Halfords) for something like a
> pound a litre?
> This is designed to reduce surface tension, I think via alcohol solution
> in there.
> I've also seen this recommended for thinning acrylics used in
> airbrushing.
> And no, the blue colour does not affect the colour of paints.
I've been very siapoointed with the inks I have tried; the only one which
works well for me is the citadel Flesh Wash, Which I use for wood colors. I
usually get better luck with water thinned acrylics, but they aren't always
effective either.
I've been thinking of thinning with Isopropanol (Rubbing Alcohol)or Acetone
(fingernail polish remover) and was wondering if anyone had tried this.
Reducing suface tension does sem to be the critical factor in using an ink
effectively.
Thane Morgan
Thane's Games
www.thanesgames.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Phillip Hartzog
I add isopropanol (10-20%) to my base colors to better get into the nooks
and cranies and get a thin even coat. i use a mixture of artist tube
acrylic, inks and acrylic craft paint (depending on the colors I want.
for example gray craft paint and black ink make an excellent base, but
for reds and blues I get deeper colors using artist tube paint).
However I've never tried isopropanol in a wash, and from early
experiences with trying to use it for dry brushing it had a tendency to
disolve the paint of the undercoat if the concentration is too high. the
best washing technique I've found is to use dilute ink and lay the model
on its side (to let gravity pull the color into the crack), then after
both sides are done, dry brush away any unwanted sploches. though I will
admit I tend to use dark undercoats and the dry brush up the lighter
colors, only occassionally using washes when the dry brushing didn't give
the effect I wanted - so by no means an expert on washes.
btw keep in mind when using isopropanol with your paint that it dries
faster so use smaller amounts and clean your brush with water from time
to time.
Nathan Mitchell
remove some paints, and I have used to take paint off old minis. Acetone will
melt off the more stubborn residue that Pinesol occasionally misses.
It is also the solvent for plastic wood, an old finishing wood putty I have used
for years to smooth out and build up movement stands. I have seen small amounts
of plastic wood blister paint. As a result, I use a water based putty, which is
not as good, on the few painted figs I mount on bases.
Can't say anything about alcohol, but see no problems for giving it a try.
Let us know how it works out.
Nate
Thane wrote: I've been thinking of thinning with Isopropanol (Rubbing Alcohol)or
Andy O'Neill
dejanews.com> writes
>I've been thinking of thinning with Isopropanol (Rubbing Alcohol)or Acetone
>(fingernail polish remover) and was wondering if anyone had tried this.
>effectively.
Winsor Newton inks also have a similar effect.
Thin your ink, and paint it into where you want it, rather than
splashing it all over the show as some people recommend.
Acrylic ink will stain whatever it touches.
Thane
Nathan Mitchell <mnem...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have never tried using acetone to thin inks, but would not do so! Acetone
can
> remove some paints, and I have used to take paint off old minis. Acetone will
> melt off the more stubborn residue that Pinesol occasionally misses.
>
> It is also the solvent for plastic wood, an old finishing wood putty I have
used
> for years to smooth out and build up movement stands. I have seen small
amounts
> of plastic wood blister paint. As a result, I use a water based putty, which
is
> not as good, on the few painted figs I mount on bases.
>
> Can't say anything about alcohol, but see no problems for giving it a try.
>
> Let us know how it works out.
Good point about the acetone; I've soaked models to remove paint as well. It
usually took a while though; has anyone left a model soak in water to see if
the paint comes off?
I figured that since acrylics are water based, using less polar solvents would
be beneficial (up to a point), but it may well be the opposite. Grain alcohol
may work better after all, or maybe an industrial dispersant (as had been
mentioned before).
I've got a bunch of Warzone plastics in the new box I wasn't going to do
anything with, so maybe they'll become test subjects.
As to laying figures flat; that's what I do. Often, especially with that
citadel crap, the inks dry from the outside in, leaving a darkly shadowed
white crevases. Shame I can't think of a good use for that, except maybe to
show lava behind cracks in a wall.
I bet primer makes a difference too.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
WGNetwork
Gary Leitzell
Phillip Hartzog
> I figured that since acrylics are water based, using less polar solvents would
> be beneficial (up to a point), but it may well be the opposite. Grain alcohol
> may work better after all, or maybe an industrial dispersant (as had been
> mentioned before).
actually acrylics are an emulsion (at least I think that's the word for
it - too long since I've done non-biological chemistry for a living). The
most of the pigment in the paint itself isn't water soluable (well not at
the concentrations used), and is held in solution by the use of
emulsifiers - read here soaps and other compounds that are polar on one
end and non-polar on the other (alchols actually fall into this as mild
emulsifiers). once the water dries off the pigment is held in place by
its adhesion to the primer or less so to the metal. yes primer works
better for acrylics, I think the dried emulsifiers block the pigments
from forming polar attachments to the metal itself - while polar based
enamels will stick to the metal when their solvents dry out (which I use
to use simple enamel to prime with, though I've switched to true primer
because it holds the paint better).
I'll admit my chemistry is a little fuzzy here since its mostly guess
work, but any solvent (acetone) or emulsifier (alcohol) is going to take
some of the acrylic pigment off from the layer below if its in high
enough concentration (the emulsifier in the paint itself is tied up with
the pigments, and not in high enough concentration to remove the dried
pigments). this is why pine sol works to take off paint - its a strong
emulsifier (and acetone or other solvents cut thru the acrylic
emulsifiers to disolve the pigment directly). this is also why sealing is
important too - otherwise handling the model will eventually rub off the
unbound pigment.
> I've got a bunch of Warzone plastics in the new box I wasn't going to do
> anything with, so maybe they'll become test subjects.
well go ahead and try it, percentage will play a big roll. I just remeber
trying to drybrush on alcohol thinned flesh tone, only to end up with the
grey primer showing thru on the high points as I actually thinned the base
paint instead of adding another layer.
> As to laying figures flat; that's what I do. Often, especially with that
> citadel crap, the inks dry from the outside in, leaving a darkly shadowed
> white crevases. Shame I can't think of a good use for that, except maybe to
> show lava behind cracks in a wall.
I think the person who suggested painting the dilute ink where you want
the shadow instead of spotting on a thick coat is perhaps the way to go.
also switch to some writing (windsor?) inks. I must admit I've never used
the GW paints or inks, but I have used acrylic paints for almost 20 years
(and painting models for 10 years) - and the GW acrylic I've seen looked
(and painted) almost exactly like Folk Art craft paint (around a $1 for
a bottle twice the size of GW paint, $2 for the metalic colors and
hundreds of colors to choose from - though I still go to tube paint for
red, and I'm considering trying some of the new water soluable oil paints
for even deeper reds). I'm sure that statement might get someone's
dander up, but I stand by the results I get.
Phillip
www.asheboro.com/users/phillip/phillip.htm
(hoping to get more and better pictures up soon)
Thane
Phillip Hartzog <phi...@duke.edu> wrote:
E-mail me about what you do biochemically; I was going down that track, but
moved back into chemistry. Organic and inorganic, some pyrotechnic.
> actually acrylics are an emulsion (at least I think that's the word for
> it - too long since I've done non-biological chemistry for a living). The
> most of the pigment in the paint itself isn't water soluable (well not at
> the concentrations used), and is held in solution by the use of
> emulsifiers - read here soaps and other compounds that are polar on one
> end and non-polar on the other (alchols actually fall into this as mild
> emulsifiers). once the water dries off the pigment is held in place by
> its adhesion to the primer or less so to the metal. yes primer works
> better for acrylics, I think the dried emulsifiers block the pigments
> from forming polar attachments to the metal itself - while polar based
> enamels will stick to the metal when their solvents dry out (which I use
> to use simple enamel to prime with, though I've switched to true primer
> because it holds the paint better).
This could well be true, but the fact that the pigment can form long sheets
when it dries makes me think that we are missing something. It also does not
"re- emulsify" very well; there could a minor amount of chemical crosslinking
occuring as the paint dries.
> I'll admit my chemistry is a little fuzzy here since its mostly guess
> work, but any solvent (acetone) or emulsifier (alcohol) is going to take
> some of the acrylic pigment off from the layer below if its in high
> enough concentration (the emulsifier in the paint itself is tied up with
> the pigments, and not in high enough concentration to remove the dried
> pigments). this is why pine sol works to take off paint - its a strong
> emulsifier (and acetone or other solvents cut thru the acrylic
> emulsifiers to disolve the pigment directly). this is also why sealing is
> important too - otherwise handling the model will eventually rub off the
> unbound pigment.
This seems close to reasonable too, except that the colors would tend to
bleed and blend when I sprayed sealer on them if it was still in loose,
discrete particles held entirely by non-polar interactions. Acrylics are
common plastics; maybe they depend on long chain entanglements to form coats?
It should be easier to resolubilize than it is in water then, though. Unless
the emulsifiers are light enough to evaporate. Otherwise, maybe a minor
amount of chemical crosslinking, held in check by the H-bonding of water
until it dries.
> > I've got a bunch of Warzone plastics in the new box I wasn't going to do
> > anything with, so maybe they'll become test subjects.
> I think the person who suggested painting the dilute ink where you want
> the shadow instead of spotting on a thick coat is perhaps the way to go.
> also switch to some writing (windsor?) inks. I must admit I've never used
> the GW paints or inks, but I have used acrylic paints for almost 20 years
> (and painting models for 10 years) - and the GW acrylic I've seen looked
> (and painted) almost exactly like Folk Art craft paint (around a $1 for
> a bottle twice the size of GW paint, $2 for the metalic colors and
> hundreds of colors to choose from - though I still go to tube paint for
> red, and I'm considering trying some of the new water soluable oil paints
> for even deeper reds). I'm sure that statement might get someone's
> dander up, but I stand by the results I get.
I'm pretty sure there is a difference, I use that folk art crap for terrain;
in fact, Citadel greatly increased the alcohol content of their new paints,
supposedly to make them paint smoother. It also has the effect of escaping
into the bottlecap threads easier, and drying much more quickly than their
paint used to. Often in the bottle.
I'm certain that too much alcohol is bad; I think I'll play a bit with it all
tonight. I let everyone know what happens.
> Phillip
> www.asheboro.com/users/phillip/phillip.htm
> (hoping to get more and better pictures up soon)
Thane Morgan
Elton waters
Thane <thane_...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <oyqX+IAG...@l-25.demon.co.uk>,
> Andy O'Neill <An...@l-25.dont-spam-me.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <7af7an$7b$1...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Sheila Davis <s...@fc.hp.com>
> > writes
> > >> Staining techniques with acrylic paints + flow aid or other similar
> > >> surface tension recuction agent will produce the same or similar effect.
> > >> Try mixing thinned acrylic paint and your Winsor Newton inks.
> > >
> > > I'll try that, thanks.
> >
> > There's an artist product called acrylic glazing medium which winsor
> > newton do in a tube. You could also try thinning this and mixing it with
> > the inks.
> >
> > You know car screen wash?
> > The blue stuff sold in car stores (eg Halfords) for something like a
> > pound a litre?
> > This is designed to reduce surface tension, I think via alcohol solution
> > in there.
> > I've also seen this recommended for thinning acrylics used in
> > airbrushing.
> > And no, the blue colour does not affect the colour of paints.
> I've been very siapoointed with the inks I have tried; the only one which
> works well for me is the citadel Flesh Wash, Which I use for wood colors. I
> usually get better luck with water thinned acrylics, but they aren't always
> effective either.
> I've been thinking of thinning with Isopropanol (Rubbing Alcohol)or Acetone
> (fingernail polish remover) and was wondering if anyone had tried this.
> Reducing suface tension does sem to be the critical factor in using an ink
> effectively.
> Thane Morgan
> Thane's Games
> www.thanesgames.com
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
I'm sorry Game$ Work$hop flesh wash is not a "ink"
its a diluted standard paint!
TA TA
--
standard discliamers apply!
Rage agianst the dieing of the light
Elton (uk)
Thane
> I'm sorry Game$ Work$hop flesh wash is not a "ink"
> its a diluted standard paint!
>
> TA TA
Funny, it tasted like an ink...
Elton waters
Why does It cloud And settle then?
And if you want to try tasting i'm up for it?
where are you?
John Brabyn, Ph.D.
adding a drop of liquid dish detergent to your thinned paint. It reduces the
surface tension enough to make the paint dry properly in the crevices, leaving a
nice effect.
Cheers,
Trevor