Colo. Shootists were NOT wargamers PLEASE READ!
Ray Rangel
Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
The fact is that in one report (Nightline) a student being interviewed said
that the Black Trench Coat Mafia would play wargames in school, hiding
behind corners with plastic toy guns and such. I expect that this is the
source of this misinformation.
Nip this in the bud now and stop repeating this untruth. None of the media
that I have seen has referred to anything but this "game" that these kids
played stalking one another between classes.
--
Ray Rangel
ray.r...@mindspring.com
Be sure to visit the Lone Star Historical Miniatures in it's temporary
location at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~ray.rangel/lshm.html
Neal Smith
Here is the Reuters story. It appears that Doom and Duke Nukem are the
"wargames" being cited...
Neal
By Dan Whitcomb
LITTLETON, Colo. (Reuters) - In many ways, they were just typical teens --
they liked way-out clothing, violent computer war games and chatting
endlessly on the Internet.
One even went to his high school prom Saturday night.
But something snapped in the minds of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold that
turned their harmless computer games into a real-life version of the popular
computer game DOOM and sent them on a bloody rampage, shooting up their high
school and killing 13 people before taking their own lives.
Acquaintances said the two 18-year-old seniors, who would have graduated in
19 days time, were members of an outcast group called the ``Trench Coat
Mafia,'' whose members paraded around the school dressed in long black coats
and talked a lot about guns, violence and Hitler.
They were also described by some as Gothics -- a loose-knit youth
sub-culture which dotes on tales of darkness and evil. Kipland Kinkel, the
15-year-old Springfield, Oregon, youth who killed his parents before
shooting to death two classmates at his high school last June, was also
described as a Gothic fan.
Jerad Tomicich, an 18-year-old senior at Columbine High School, said he knew
Dylan fairly well and that the youth spent ''a lot of time on the Internet
playing war games like 'Duke Nuke 'Em' and 'Doom.'''
Tomicich said, ``Dylan was heavily into war games. He was a little bit weird
but nothing extreme. He and his group, the 'Trench Coat Mafia,' were
ridiculed a lot at school. That's because they were weird for this time and
environment. This is a pretty high class school.''
The youth added that he was not surprised that Klebold and Harris were able
to pull down bombmaking information from the Internet because, he said, it
was a fairly easy thing to do.
Meanwhile reports circulated that Harris had a webpage in which he discussed
apocalyptic visions of destruction complete with bomb diagrams. But America
Online, with whom he had an account, said any pages or materials related to
the Colorado were quickly removed Tuesday and forwarded to the FBI. They
would not confirm any reports on content.
Neighbors of Harris said the family, which lived in a cul-de-sac in a
well-to-do section of Littleton, kept to themselves, especially Eric.
``The day before this happened I could hear glass breaking and saws going
like bzzzzzz,'' 10-year-old neighbor Tony Fattore told Reuters, making the
sound of a saw.
``I didn't think anything of it cause he was always in his garage doing
something. But then we heard about the explosives so maybe he was in there
building them,'' Fattore said.
Another student at Columbine High School, Devon Adams, 16, said Harris had
``changed recently. He's gotten mean.'' She also said that Klebold was
``different. He just likes the clothes. I don't think he was a mean or evil
guy.'' She added that Klebold was at a high school prom Saturday night.
Fellow student Adam Foss said the gunmen were not stupid.
``They were intelligent kids. They just wore black coats to show they had
friends. They spent time with each other and played on computers,'' Foss, a
senior, said.
Foss was among about 60 students trapped for hours in the choir room at the
school, hiding in terror from Klebold and Harris.
The two gunmen had an arrest record for stealing from a car -- the kind of
crime many teen-agers get involved in.
Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas said the two recently
completed a probation program for stealing from a vehicle, which he said was
a felony.
``The two completed a probation program through my office in February
1999,'' Thomas told reporters.
Neighbors of the Klebold family put a sign on the gate in front of the posh,
upscale home tucked underneath a red rock outcropping and surrounded by
several acres of land.
``Sue and Tom, we love you,'' the note addressed to Klebold's parents, said.
tn...@pop.phnx.uswest.net
Dand D , Battletech, And were into roll playing , they didn`t say what kind. Not
real good Press for the Hobby.
Tom in Az
Jason Schmidt
really doesn't have anything to do with Rebel flags and Nazism. It
really seems strange that people are so desperate to label these kids as
members of some group. The very first line in one of the cover stories
in our paper today mentioned Marilyn Manson, fercrissakes!
What I'm still waiting to see is someone coming to the realization that
if jocks and preppies didn't fuck with kids like this so bad, shit like
this might not happen.
--
Codeine: tugboat captain, King of Spain
Myrmydon
you may be correct , but my local paper lists them as wargamers, of
course its not unusuall for the media to change and manipulate the truth.
Penguin Boy
>
> Incidently, these two weren't "Goths" either. The Gothic subculture
> really doesn't have anything to do with Rebel flags and Nazism.
Quite! We get *beaten up* by Nazis for crying out loud. See the threads
currently dominating uk.people.gothic and alt.gothic.
AP
Penguin Boy
>
> There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
Oh great. So Goth, RPGs and now my other subculture being witch-hunted
all at the same time. Truly exceptional, even by media standards.
AP
pega...@my-dejanews.com
"Ray Rangel" <ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
> that the Black Trench Coat Mafia would play wargames in school, hiding
> behind corners with plastic toy guns and such. I expect that this is the
> source of this misinformation.
>
> Nip this in the bud now and stop repeating this untruth. None of the media
> that I have seen has referred to anything but this "game" that these kids
> played stalking one another between classes.
>
It appears that the Goth angle is taking over for the wargamer angle. I've
known many wargamers and a few Goths. Most of the wargamers I know wouldn't
think of going on a rampage such as this, and the Goths I've known aren't
anywhere near this uptight. They were more interested in having a good time.
IMO, even the Gothic angle doesn't make sense. Reminds me of what
role-playing went through in the Seventies and early Eighties.
Brian (a wargamer who has been known on rare occaisions to wear black).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
James Paulsen
Ray Rangel wrote:
> There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
Did you scoure this report?
http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/REPORTS/HSSHOOT/ap trench990421.htm
It specifically mentions "World War II games." I'd like to know which ones...
Remember...the press IS NEVER wrong! *ducks as objects fly in his direction*
Jim,
Who is hoping both that this never happens again and that the press is indeed
wrong.
John Davis
is that they were computer gamers, specifically the game DOOM. That would be
close enough for some people. But you are right, disassociate from them. The
Gothic crowd did the same thing on national tv (CNN and MSNBC) yesterday.
People thought because they wore black all the time they were goths. And here
I ws thinking Goths were jsut another wnadering tribe to kill with the Romans.
Ray Rangel wrote:
> There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
> The fact is that in one report (Nightline) a student being interviewed said
> that the Black Trench Coat Mafia would play wargames in school, hiding
> behind corners with plastic toy guns and such. I expect that this is the
> source of this misinformation.
>
> Nip this in the bud now and stop repeating this untruth. None of the media
> that I have seen has referred to anything but this "game" that these kids
> played stalking one another between classes.
>
Myrmydon
dispell the evils myths of gamers( GAMA are you listening ?) To take the spot
light off us and disassociate us from this negative media. I remember gaming in
the late 70's in high school and my parents reading what an evil cult D&D was ,
I could never really explain to my dad that it was harmless. The sad thing is
that my dad was a smart and well educated professional , and was not a very
religiuos person, yet he still believed that these gamers were somehow
subversive. Well enough of my ranting, does anyone know anyyone with GAMA, give
them a call.
Philip Dutre
Jason Schmidt wrote:
>
> Incidently, these two weren't "Goths" either. The Gothic subculture
> really doesn't have anything to do with Rebel flags and Nazism. It
> really seems strange that people are so desperate to label these kids as
> members of some group. The very first line in one of the cover stories
> in our paper today mentioned Marilyn Manson, fercrissakes!
Problem is that people who are active in these subcultures can see the
differences, but for the 'outside' world it's all subtle and not very
meaningful.
> What I'm still waiting to see is someone coming to the realization that
> if jocks and preppies didn't fuck with kids like this so bad, shit like
> this might not happen.
European newspapers are mentioning this quite a bit. But then it's
maybe because the 'jock-dominated school' is the cliche with which
all Europeans tend to associate American high schools.
Phil
--
=======================================================================
Philip Dutre Program of Computer Graphics Cornell University
ph...@graphics.cornell.edu http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~phil/
=======================================================================
Jon B. Walker
> >
> > There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in
the
> > Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the
truth.
> > Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> > reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
including my local paper (the Tulsa World) and it has come up in a couple of
CNN articles.
Jon W.
moses
John Davis wrote in message <371F266B...@navix.net>...
>Not even a bad April Fools joke like the one of Old Glory. What was
reported
>is that they were computer gamers, specifically the game DOOM. That would
be
>close enough for some people. But you are right, disassociate from them.
The
>Gothic crowd did the same thing on national tv (CNN and MSNBC) yesterday.
>People thought because they wore black all the time they were goths.
I get rather upset that the media delve into this tragedy with the hunger of
a wolf. The only reason 99.9% of the media (who make money from the job)
really even bother reporting the event is because it will sell papers/air
time, and thus sell advertisment time/space. We hear 'people have a right
to know' and they do, but that is not their adjenda.
Speaking of adjenda's, I note that whenever a tragedy such as this occurs
everyone who has an adjenda gets on their soap box and starts speaking. It
happened when the Port Arthur Massacre occured in Tasmania Australia, and it
will happen every time something occurs. It isn't a case of 'gun control'
'banning goths' 'banning wargamers' 'banning violent games' etc. I like the
occasional violent game. There is nothing better sometimes than letting
loose with a chain gun into a demon. I'm not a Goth, and won't speak
regarding that culture. I would have a gun if I had the need (hunting
whatever) which can also include just being a collector. I also (obviously)
wargame. Probably more than 50% of the list members can agree with my
sentiment. I, along with the vast majority manage to keep the games and
culture sane. Unfortunately some can't.
This tragedy would have occured anyway. It may not have been with these
guy's, it may not have been for another 5 years. It would have occured.
I'm sorry to say, that there is an almost certainty that something similar
will occur within a very short period of time.
Wargamers are probably going to have to wear a little rough riding during
the next couple of weeks. It will probably be minor. Please note that
despite the bad press AD&D received a decade ago due to some people being
killed, it still survived. Your friends and family know you are sane, and
know the hobby is harmless. Let the press be the way the press is, and
learn from it. Learn that most of what comes out of the press is garbage,
and next time you hear a report on a group that you are not a member of, and
have no inside knowlege of, consider that the report MAY be over the top.
My condolances to the friends and family of the victims.
Ian
Ray Trochim
Since the event happenned not to far from where I live (about three
miles), I feel I can shed some light on the subject. I know a staff
member from the school this happenned at, and from what I gathered from
the news and my friend, these were just two kids that lost it. They were
not gamers* and the fact that they played DOOM all the time isn't true. I
have no idea where the news gets this kid of stuff. The news only cares
about ratings and not the truth anyway, so its not hard to figure out how
reliable it can be.
Had they been gamers*, chances are they would have been more stable.
Just my oppionon on the subject. I can speak from personal experience.
I started gaming seriously in the 7th grade (Napoleonics a favorit). It
kept me out of a lot of trouble.
*gamers as in strategy gamers who play historical and fantasy based
miniature or board games.
-Ray
In article <7fm0mm$ntt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>,
Ray Rangel <ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
>Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
>reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
TcSqd
from the Colorado shooting press. Unless you are queried or a local hobby shop
called by the press, do not stick head out.
The press will write the following, "Wargamers deny death games encourage Teen
murderers" or "Wargamers feel victimized by Press"
All these will serve to drive the sensationalism of the press. Right now the
press is in a feeding frenzy and as they lack for angles to exploit the
victims' misery and horror they will pick on someone else standing close. Don't
let it be you/us.
The better approach would be to raise a good press story in about 4 months.
Then the press begins with a positive impression and god forbid a similiar
tragedy occurs the press will call you for clarification on facts -- not to
make you the story.
Remember the brilliant college student who played D & D and died in the sewers
somewhere?. Hollywood even made movies about it. You still hear people remember
that event.
Nope, the right course of action is let the software computer people take this
bullet and be thankful that historical games are linked.
It sounds crass, but we are talking the press here and they a sensational
carrion hunters looking for targets.
And let us all pray that it won't happen again and that victims' families get
the support they need to get through this.
CPerry9286
>*gamers as in strategy gamers who play historical and fantasy based
>miniature or board games.
intended to
either the victoms or the survivors.
As my ex-wife and i were discusing the incident :
"Look on the bright side " I say, " if they had been gamers, with the
application of some minor tactical skills and knowledge the body count might
have been higher".
"Let see. We are suicidal, lets load this car up with explosives (which we
have) and nails. Lets set a medium fire, pull the fire allarm. Lets watch the
crowd gather. Let the firedepartment arrive. Drive into the biggest crowd.
Boom."
More success/deaths more press.
The goal of these boys was not directly to kill folk. By virtue of the nature
of their actions, random victom, tauntinig of survivors, the goal was to cause
chaos, trauma, and to achive "notice" while they remained alive.
Chris Perry
Mike Garcia
>Remember the brilliant college student who played D & D and died in the sewers
>somewhere?. Hollywood even made movies about it. You still hear people remember
>that event.
This was the case where the young man was (a) prodigy, attending
university at 15 or 16 and not fitting in with his "peers", (b) having
an affair with one of his teachers, (c) using recreational
pharmicuticals, and (d) found within a month of his disappearence by a
PI hired by his family. Yep, it must have been the D&D that messed him
up.
Mike G
Ed Allen
>Remember the brilliant college student who played D & D and died in the sewers
>somewhere?. Hollywood even made movies about it. You still hear people remember
>that event.
Dallas Egbert did not die in the sewers. He did a little live RPG stuff in
the steam tunnels under MSU, or maybe was just mapping them with the handy
quadrille ruled paper, and then ran away from home & school to Texas,
after which the cops were searching the tunnels for him, since they found
his maps. He then committed suicide in a mundane way, because he was a 16
year old mixed up, gay kid, in college early and somewhat precocious, who
felt too much pressure from his parents, school, and probably from being a
gay teen. I started at MSU the year following his scandal and hung around
with a lot of the same people, who were still smarting from the stupid
press frenzy. He was not a particularly good D&D player, BTW, according to
one of the people that played with him, and not great in chemistry
according to his lab partner. Your typical bright but unhappy kid, made
out by the slavering press to be a broken genius swept away by cultists.
The TV movie based on the crappy book was sensationalized BS, just as the
press coverage was then and now.
I still remember the FBI agents wandering around the first meeting of the
Tolkien Fellowship in the fall of 79 trying to pretend to fit in and spy
on us potential subversives who putatively had led Dallas astray. Instead
they found a bunch of silly but nice egghead college students who had
spent too much time memorizing bits of Tolkien poetry, bouncing puns off
each other, singing filksongs, and doing skits from the books. What a let
down.
Ed Allen
--
Ed Allen
Programmer/System Administrator
Center For DNA Sequencing and Technology
Stanford University
al...@sequence.stanford.edu
http://tetrad.stanford.edu
Neal Smith
I'm not into Goth, but even I know you at least need to have black hair and
eye shadow! :-)
Later,
Neal
Jason Schmidt wrote in message <371EB8...@earthlink.net>...
>Incidently, these two weren't "Goths" either. The Gothic subculture
>really doesn't have anything to do with Rebel flags and Nazism. It
>really seems strange that people are so desperate to label these kids as
>members of some group. The very first line in one of the cover stories
>in our paper today mentioned Marilyn Manson, fercrissakes!
>
>What I'm still waiting to see is someone coming to the realization that
>if jocks and preppies didn't fuck with kids like this so bad, shit like
>this might not happen.
>
John Holly
recreate WWII battles.
John Holly
John Davis wrote:
> Not even a bad April Fools joke like the one of Old Glory. What was reported
> is that they were computer gamers, specifically the game DOOM. That would be
> close enough for some people. But you are right, disassociate from them. The
> Gothic crowd did the same thing on national tv (CNN and MSNBC) yesterday.
> People thought because they wore black all the time they were goths. And here
> I ws thinking Goths were jsut another wnadering tribe to kill with the Romans.
>
Ray Rangel
Ray Rangel <ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7fm0mm$ntt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
Of course now, a couple days after the shooting the press reports have
changed. The AP wire ran a story today that stated the boys played wargames
without further clarification. This is quite normal for the press. Their
interest in not in reporting about war games, but rather reporting about the
nature of the individuals who committed the act.
A lot of local news "sources" simply rewrite a wire story or print it out
right. A newspaper in Montana is not going to send an investigative team to
Colorado. They will gather "facts" from other news sources and propagate
them. The AP wire carried stories containing interviews with a fellow
student who referred to "war games". Night Line did a interview in which a
fellow student referred to "war games". These stories do indicate that the
war games were like running around stalking each other. Seems more like
paintball or laser tag to me. But most of the local media simply parrot what
the news agencies say, and often paraphrase, the only thing the local media
say is "war games" because it's such a nifty sounding sound-byte.
I happen to agree with some other posters. This will blow over soon. There
will be another building or two blown off the map in Europe and media
attention will be focused there. The best response is no response. And that
means quelling the alarmist elements within our own ranks. No one is going
to shut down war gaming. It's a hobby that is hundreds, if not thousands, of
years old. No one is going to take your little lead men away. The worst
thing anyone in the war gaming industry could do is make an issue out it. To
do so is to validate the rumor and mis-statements by all the media that make
them.
Ray Trochim
No one is going to take your little lead men away you say? My mom tried
when I was a little kid, because she thought I should be doing what the
other kids were doing. In short, getting into trouble. You know,
stealling cars, breaking windows, blowing up things. Anyway, the hobby
kept me to busy to get into trouble so my mischief was kept down to a
small storm. Also kept me from smoking. I was always against it, but
when I did think about it (half hearted), I always figured the money I
waste on cigarettes would be put to better use if I buy Napoleonic books
games and figures.
Just babbling again. Even after I complained about non-historical
postings to this group.
-Ray
Penguin Boy
>
> I couldn't figure that one out either...
>
> I'm not into Goth, but even I know you at least need to have black hair and
> eye shadow! :-)
Nice to see some non-Goths can see what a crock of shit this latest
media onslaught is. Already, friends of mine have been attacked. I am
*not* a happy bunny atm.
Anyway, thanks for your support. All the groups being witch-hunted need
to stick together IMHO
AP
WW1 German General Goth
Penguin Boy
>
> Ray Rangel <ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:7fm0mm$ntt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> > There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
> > Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> > Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
> > reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
> >
>
> Of course now, a couple days after the shooting the press reports have
> changed. The AP wire ran a story today that stated the boys played wargames
> without further clarification. This is quite normal for the press. Their
> interest in not in reporting about war games, but rather reporting about the
> nature of the individuals who committed the act.
The Washington Post and others have started to refute the slur on the
Goth scene as well, and none too soon (only a handful of us have been
attacked so far). If you want to see how much worse things could be for
wargamers, take a look at alt.gothic.
AP
DLCRCF
<jbwalke...@mindspring.com> writes:
>There were NO reports that those people were wargamers
Jon,
When I came home from work my wife told me these kids were wargamers I
myself heard it later on CNN Headline News.
This event was a horriable tradjedy
Christine Plumer
herself. Some of the early news reports said the two suspects were
involved in wargaming. They seemed to stress computer games, like Doom
rather than the figure gaming. EVEN if these two individuals were into
gaming, they don't reflect the hobby as a whole. In the next few weeks
experts and pseudo-experts will give all kinds of reasons for this
senseless tragedy, the usual suspects have already been mentioned,
violence on T.V., movies, music and the Internet. There are no
clear-cut answers, and probably there never will be.
Minadmiral
shared by the jocks who persecuted non jocks. Remember your own days in
school? Who was on top? Who was on the bottem?
Maybe a little more emphasis in the schools on getting along with everyone
would help.
Chuck
David
through the loners and geeks. No insult is intend on anybody but we all
know how bad kids can be on those who do not fit in. No an excuse just
a thought....
SMHuckaby
that these two people are wargamers (regardless of flavor). Don't even mention
it. Ignore all associations with it. Do you know even one of your wargaming
friends capable of this? How many of the people you know at Historicon who
would have intervene by calling the police or even shuttling the kids to safety
as many of those teachers did? How many of the people in HMGS have high school
kids of their own?
Yes there are witchhunts on right now and everyone is running from the
Goths to TV to the press to the NRA (although guns will be the victim most
likely to burn at the stake).
But I must point out one universal truth that wargamers should hold up in
defense: When a professional ball player kills his family no one suggest that
it was football's fault. There is no push to ban high school football. To
erase all that old Super Bowl tape. Why is that? Because its not violent? Come
on - why do you think they have that board with the neck brace by the sideline.
No, its because its accepted. Well, wargamers don't have to accept this crap
either.
Also, Chris Matthew, (former aide to Tip O'Neil therefore no Charleston
Heston) said about the shootings that at this time we need to remember the good
things about America and our freedom and that we don't need to legislate the
freedom of 260 MILLION people based on the actions of 2 people.
Ray Rangel
Minadmiral <minad...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990424042312...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
> Bet noone is going to go into the responsibility
> shared by the jocks who persecuted non jocks. Remember your own days in
> school? Who was on top? Who was on the bottem?
> Maybe a little more emphasis in the schools on getting along with everyone
> would help.
> Chuck
>
This is not a subject for rgmh but I couldn't resist putting in my two cents
<sigh>.
There is a natural pecking order that establishes itself in any social
group. It exists at work, school, clubs, churches, and any other place where
more than one person exists. This is the natural way of things. It disturbs
me that people focus on the symptoms rather than the cause. The cause, in
this case, was the boys' inability to deal with their chosen place in the
school social order.
In other words, there will always be those at the top and those at the
bottom. It can't be changed, nor would you want it to be. This is where
people are trained for adult life. Take your game club for instance. Aren't
there those that are at the top of the pecking order? Aren't there those at
the bottom? We all simulate battles on table tops and represent every rank
from general to private. Do you really think it's wise to have every soldier
think he's a general...or a private?
The problem was not that these boys were outcasts. The problem was that
these boys *chose* to be outcasts and then couldn't deal with it. If they
hadn't shot up the school and they got together got drunk in their misery
and wrapped their car around a tree we would never know about it. The
shootings were a symptom. The fact that they were at the bottom of the
school's social order was a symptom. Their inability to deal with it was the
cause. Figure out *why* they couldn't and you might have some answers.
The answers are not easy to find. There is no silver bullet.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> The problem was not that these boys were outcasts. The problem was that
> these boys *chose* to be outcasts and then couldn't deal with it. If they
> hadn't shot up the school and they got together got drunk in their misery
> and wrapped their car around a tree we would never know about it. The
> shootings were a symptom. The fact that they were at the bottom of the
> school's social order was a symptom. Their inability to deal with it was the
> cause. Figure out *why* they couldn't and you might have some answers.
Very well said, Ray, and spot-on, IMHO.
I might steal this line from you to use in conversation... <G>
Tony
Mike Garcia
>This is not a subject for rgmh but I couldn't resist putting in my two cents
><sigh>.
>
>There is a natural pecking order that establishes itself in any social
>group. It exists at work, school, clubs, churches, and any other place where
>more than one person exists. This is the natural way of things. It disturbs
>me that people focus on the symptoms rather than the cause. The cause, in
>this case, was the boys' inability to deal with their chosen place in the
>school social order.
Substitute the word "assigned" for "chosen" and I'll agree.
>In other words, there will always be those at the top and those at the
>bottom. It can't be changed, nor would you want it to be. This is where
>people are trained for adult life. Take your game club for instance. Aren't
>there those that are at the top of the pecking order? Aren't there those at
>the bottom? We all simulate battles on table tops and represent every rank
>from general to private. Do you really think it's wise to have every soldier
>think he's a general...or a private?
The difference is that those "on top" should not be allowed to mistreat
those "on the bottom". When the HS football team looked like it would
win the chamionship, they could do no wrong. At the time I figured the
football jocks would be pumping my gas and cleaning my windshield in 10
years. I think I was right. :-)
Mike G
Ray Rangel
Mike Garcia <mtg5-...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:7ftjnq$l...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> Substitute the word "assigned" for "chosen" and I'll agree.
No, I think not. No one told them they had to wear black trench coats any
more than anyone told the football players that they must play football.
These are personal choices. If one makes unpopular choices, whether they are
good or bad, then one must be prepared to live with the consequences. A sure
sign of immaturity is blaming others for one's own choices. Age, in this
respect, doesn't seem to make any difference. There are always those who are
not adult enough to take responsibility for their own actions.
> The difference is that those "on top" should not be allowed to mistreat
> those "on the bottom". When the HS football team looked like it would
> win the chamionship, they could do no wrong. At the time I figured the
> football jocks would be pumping my gas and cleaning my windshield in 10
> years. I think I was right. :-)
That depends on what you mean by mistreating them. Physical abuse, of
course, is right out. However, if those at the top (whether it's school,
work, or play) don't have some advantages then where's the motivation for
those at the bottom to aspire to greater things? I would venture to guess
that there were a lot of members of the team that went on to greater things
than pumping your gas. You see, it's all in your point of view, isn't it.
> Mike G
Steven M Goode
Colo. Shootists were NO.. by "Ray Rangel"@mindspring.
> > The difference is that those "on top" should not be allowed to mistreat
> > those "on the bottom". When the HS football team looked like it would
> > win the chamionship, they could do no wrong. At the time I figured the
> > football jocks would be pumping my gas and cleaning my windshield in 10
> > years. I think I was right. :-)
>
> That depends on what you mean by mistreating them. Physical abuse, of
> course, is right out. However, if those at the top (whether it's school,
> work, or play) don't have some advantages then where's the motivation for
> those at the bottom to aspire to greater things?
Correct me if I misunderstood, but you seem to be saying:
Those "at the top" should be allowed to mistreat those "below" them in
non-physical ways, as this perk provides an incentive for those lower in
the pecking order to rise to "greater things" such as mistreating their
fellows.
What is "being on top" in school other than being popular? Why is being
popular a "greater thing"? Why should we tolerate any intentional (let
alone intentional *and* organized) mistreatment?
Screw popularity. Screw people who mistreat other people. *That's*
what the unpopular kids in school need to hear.
Ray Rangel
Steven M Goode <gro...@CMU.EDU> wrote in message
news:Ar8aE8a00...@andrew.cmu.edu...
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.miniatures.historical: 24-Apr-99 Re:
> Colo. Shootists were NO.. by "Ray Rangel"@mindspring.
> >
> > > The difference is that those "on top" should not be allowed to
mistreat
> > > those "on the bottom". When the HS football team looked like it would
> > > win the chamionship, they could do no wrong. At the time I figured
the
> > > football jocks would be pumping my gas and cleaning my windshield in
10
> > > years. I think I was right. :-)
> >
> > That depends on what you mean by mistreating them. Physical abuse, of
> > course, is right out. However, if those at the top (whether it's school,
> > work, or play) don't have some advantages then where's the motivation
for
> > those at the bottom to aspire to greater things?
>
> Correct me if I misunderstood, but you seem to be saying:
> Those "at the top" should be allowed to mistreat those "below" them in
> non-physical ways, as this perk provides an incentive for those lower in
> the pecking order to rise to "greater things" such as mistreating their
> fellows.
That again depends on what you mean by "mistreat". Is not inviting them to
parties mistreatment? Is simply labeling them as "weird" mistreatment? If
the outsiders want to be on the inside then they have to act accordingly. If
they truly don't care to, then they shouldn't complain when they aren't
included.
> What is "being on top" in school other than being popular? Why is being
> popular a "greater thing"? Why should we tolerate any intentional (let
> alone intentional *and* organized) mistreatment?
If your only definition of "on top" is popularity then it is no wonder you
feel the way you do. There are *many* ways to be on top. If the only way you
can think of is be the football captain or the head cheerleader then you are
headed for a hard time.
> Screw popularity. Screw people who mistreat other people. *That's*
> what the unpopular kids in school need to hear.
What they need to hear is that there is, and always will be, a natural
pecking order that evolves in any social group. Those that deny it are bound
for failure. Those that recognize it (despite whether they agree with it or
not), whether they are leaders or followers, will succeed. It's really that
simple.
By the way, it's also natural for those at the bottom to think they are
being mistreated whether they are or not. Just as it's natural for those at
the top to think they are carrying the burden for everyone else, whether
they are or not. But the fact is that this is the way *every* social group
works. It doesn't matter whether it's a United States high school or a tribe
of South American head-hunters. It doesn't matter if it's Cub Scouts or a
corporate office. That's the way it is. It doesn't matter if I like it or
you like it or anyone hates it. That's the way it is. Those that cope (and
99.999% do!) get along with their lives....
SMHuckaby
parties mistreatment? Is simply labeling them as "weird" mistreatment? If
the outsiders want to be on the inside then they have to act accordingly. If
they truly don't care to, then they shouldn't complain when they aren't
included. >>
regardless of what they wear? How about Gym class being one hour of pick on the
kid that can't sink a basket while the coach sits idly by and smiles? How about
the kid gets to the point where he dreads school? How about when others are
saying that they are glad that summer is over so they can see their friends a
kid sees as the end of a parole? How about being push to the outside to the
point that they don't even think they have a right to be in school? I don't
know about these kids, but many kids become "weird" because they aren't allowed
to join the group. Chances are you didn't know these kind of kids in your
school or give a rat's a** but they were probably there. That is in no way an
endorsement or excuse for the shootists' action. I want to emphasize this, but
I laugh when the press says "there are no answers" or "how can this be" .
This has been going on for years. Worse, teenagers, unlike adults have
different psychological make-up. Being forced out of the mainstream literally
is the end of the world. If you don't understand what I am talking about, know
that Hollywood does, that's why that make films like "Never Been Kissed" or
"Angus" or for that matter "Carrie". Hell, "Carrie" is this incident except
with psychic powers instead of guns! Once again, none of this matters when
young people have been killed, this is no excuse for what these kids did, after
all, there are so many kids in the same boat who found other ways to cope.
Just remember those of you talking pecking order and expected benefits, there
are millions out there who will never call high school the "best time of their
lives" like the majority do or you do.
Ray Rangel
> young people have been killed, this is no excuse for what these kids did,
after
> all, there are so many kids in the same boat who found other ways to cope.
Which is my point entirely! The fact is that cliques *will* exist. There
*will* be those that are envied and those that are looked down upon. To
prevent incidents like these one must look at ways to make kids understand
and cope.
> Just remember those of you talking pecking order and expected benefits,
there
> are millions out there who will never call high school the "best time of
their
> lives" like the majority do or you do.
And there are those that hated being in the service...and those that have to
force themselves to get up in the morning to go back to work...and those
that rue the day they were married...and...and...and...
The point is that there is *always* a social order. Kids, if anything, need
to be taught to deal with it. My kids were taught that sometimes they will
be on top of the order, in which case they have certain responsibilities.
Sometime they will be at the bottom, in which case they must cope.
The media likes to toss gasoline into a fire. So instead of saying that the
parents are at fault, or the shooters themselves, they throw around things
like "war games", "computer games", "TV", etc. simply because they are
pandering to the public's basic believe that kids just don't do this sort of
thing.
Again getting back to the thread....
Since the first day when "war games" was mentioned, the media has picked up
the phrase and propagated it out of context. This, I believe, is not some
dark concerted effort to eliminate gaming. It is simply the parroting of a
sound byte that whose context gets left behind as it travels from report to
report.
DucDallas
>group. It exists at work, school, clubs, churches, and any other place where
>more than one person exists. This is the natural way of things. It disturbs
>me that people focus on the symptoms rather than the cause. The cause, in
>this case, was the boys' inability to deal with their chosen place in the
>school social order.
Yeah the pecking order is formed by the jock being a foot taller and twice the
weight. But that is okay because when he beats the shit out of some kid that is
just normal "pecking order" establishment. However if the poor SOB on the
bottom picks up a baseball bat he is a criminal. So he does not do it and
remains slime in the peer group. Add a million cases of this and POW. Someone
snaps.
Your "pecking order" shit is as much the cause as anything else.
Lloyd
Ray Rangel
DucDallas <ducd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990425124422...@ng02.aol.com...
No. The inability to deal with it is. The "order" is not the problem. The
problem is how people deal with it. There is nothing wrong with playing
football. Football players aren't required to go around beating people up
any more than non-athletes are required to get beaten.
Some of these abuse problems come with youth. Kids generally don't have the
self control mastery to keep themselves from taking advantage of weaker (in
any sense) kids. They have power, leadership, and group acceptance and don't
know how to control themselves. These are, of course, the minority.
It is interesting to observe that those individuals who cry foul when they
are labeled as anti-social, nerds, bookworms, weaklings, etc. are quite
ready to point a finger and label others as jocks, etc. It flows both ways.
I can imagine what the attitude of the RPGers would be if an individual who
was a known "jock" sat down, letter jacket and all, and ask to play. I can
see the players eyes rolling back in their heads.
The bottom line is that nobody is ever going to stop cliques from forming
because it's just basic human nature. Nobody is ever going to stop social
stratification (fancy term for pecking order) because it's basic human
nature.
What we *can* do is help kids learn how to exercise self control. We can
teach them tolerance. We can *enforce* non violence. We can teach kids that
there is more to life than belonging to (or being rejected by) an adolescent
clique.
Brian Hodson
Ray Rangel wrote in message <7fvopt$mjn$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>What we *can* do is help kids learn how to exercise self control. We can
>teach them tolerance. We can *enforce* non violence. We can teach kids that
>there is more to life than belonging to (or being rejected by) an
adolescent
>clique.
While I'll agree with this statement, you have in fact strayed from the
language of your original post, which suggested that it is the fault of the
"outsiders" when they are abused or maltreated by the "insiders" and the
only solution is for them to "get used to it". This position I cannot agree
with and I do hope that your re-formulation, quoted above, is in fact your
actual stance, rather than the subtly vicious social-darwinism you espoused
earlier.
Maybe now we can all agree that, while social stratification ultimately
cannot be avoided or removed, the means by which stratification is enforced
may be more or less violent and that less violent, "voluntary" forms of
stratification are to be preferred to violent, "imposed" forms. In this
light, the tragedy in Colorado resulted from the willingness of the
teenagers involved to use violence as a means of resolving the feelings of
status anxiety common to most adolescents, rather than seeking other means
of satisfying their need for acceptance and validation.
Ok, enough psycho-babble. Let's get back to talking about
rec.games.miniatures.historical.
Brian Hodson
moses
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <3721F8...@indiana.edu>...
>I might steal this line from you to use in conversation... <G>
Dont forget to say 'quote Ray Rangle........', or you may find yourself in a
law suit :)
Ian
moses
Ray Rangel wrote in message <7ftlp6$s23$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>No, I think not. No one told them they had to wear black trench coats any
>more than anyone told the football players that they must play football.
>These are personal choices. If one makes unpopular choices, whether they
are
>good or bad, then one must be prepared to live with the consequences. A
sure
>sign of immaturity is blaming others for one's own choices. Age, in this
>respect, doesn't seem to make any difference. There are always those who
are
>not adult enough to take responsibility for their own actions.
I kind of agree with both comments. I think there is some choice, but I
also think that there is some assigning. Someone who doesn't quite fit in
(perhaps because of the way they are, not because of the choice they make -
buck teeth - red hair - a physical deformity - home pressure - et al) will
be less likely to be able to be 'one on top'. He may try to play football,
but not be any good at it etc etc. The end result may be such that he
CHOOSES to go into the position of Trench coat wearing geek, but was
assigned the position of an outie as opposed to an innie (and I don't mean
belly buttons)
Ian
J.O.S.
<ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>There is a rumor floating about on this newsgroup that the shooters in the
>Colorado incident were wargamers. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>Let's Nip this in the bud RIGHT NOW! I scoured the AP and local news
>reports. There were NO reports that those people were wargamers.
>
>The fact is that in one report (Nightline) a student being interviewed said
>that the Black Trench Coat Mafia would play wargames in school, hiding
>behind corners with plastic toy guns and such. I expect that this is the
>source of this misinformation.
>
>Nip this in the bud now and stop repeating this untruth. None of the media
>that I have seen has referred to anything but this "game" that these kids
>played stalking one another between classes.
Well, what do you expect, The PC crowd had to eventually discover
the existence of this hobby. Naturally, the subject it deals with is
not PC and it ties in with the Left's continual battle to stop
everyone from having fun. After all, hobbies are for the rich. Next
they'll go after Colonial wargames and say that they're "racist" and
that'll be the end of Foundry's darkest Africa line! if not wargaming
altogether. Jim S.
Brian Hodson
J.O.S. wrote in message
<544DA59E9137BA31.B06A4AC0...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
> Well, what do you expect, The PC crowd had to eventually discover
>the existence of this hobby. Naturally, the subject it deals with is
>not PC and it ties in with the Left's continual battle to stop
>everyone from having fun. After all, hobbies are for the rich. Next
So, what you're saying is that "Leftists" can't have fun? Damn, I guess I'd
better wipe that perpetual grin off of my face and adopt a dour expression.
That, plus not being rich....I guess gaming just isn't for me and my
political views.
Thanks for clearing that one up.
Brian Hodson
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> It flows both ways.
> I can imagine what the attitude of the RPGers would be if an individual who
> was a known "jock" sat down, letter jacket and all, and ask to play. I can
> see the players eyes rolling back in their heads.
>
> teach them tolerance. We can *enforce* non violence. We can teach kids that
> there is more to life than belonging to (or being rejected by) an adolescent
> clique.
Ray, you're making far too much sense.
I'm going to have to ask you to stop, or common sense will break out.
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
Only the first time. <G>
A friend of mine has a rule in attributions and things you say:
The first time, you have to say the name. "Dave Williams once said..."
The second time, you can hedge. "Someone once said..."
The third time, you can claim it as your own. "I've always said..."
Tony
Ray Rangel
moses <ian.n...@no.spam.please.usa.net> wrote in message
news:6fKU2.196$Hn2...@198.235.216.4...
> I kind of agree with both comments. I think there is some choice, but I
> also think that there is some assigning. Someone who doesn't quite fit in
> (perhaps because of the way they are, not because of the choice they
make -
> buck teeth - red hair - a physical deformity - home pressure - et al) will
> be less likely to be able to be 'one on top'. He may try to play
football,
> but not be any good at it etc etc. The end result may be such that he
> CHOOSES to go into the position of Trench coat wearing geek, but was
> assigned the position of an outie as opposed to an innie (and I don't mean
> belly buttons)
>
So one can't play football. That's a reason to wear trench coat and act
stupid? There are dozens, if not hundreds, of groups to which these kids
could have attached themselves with some modicum of success. Ever hear of
journalism club, band, baseball, glee club, not to mention drama, art, etc..
etc. etc. They didn't choose these, it might involve so effort. Instead they
chose the easy way out and created a sick little anti-social group in which
*they* could be the leaders and reject others.
The fact *is* that these kids segregated themselves and then blamed everyone
else for it. Those coming to their defense are well meaning but misguided.
These kids made a *choice* to reject normal society because they couldn't
belong to one tiny segment of it. Blaming the "jocks" or anyone else for
their choices is a crock. It's just this kind of well meaning, but
wrong-headed thinking that gets these kids into trouble:
"There, there son, it's not *your* fault you're a social misfit...it's those
evil football players...those evil temptress cheerleaders..."
And then in the aftermath...
"I don't understand how they could have done it..."
Brian Hodson
>least as far as I've seen., People who call themselves "Leftists"(AKA
>Liberals) and say so very loudly., Seem to oppose a lot of things
>which by their nature actually harm nobody. Things which no one could
>say are offensive or harmful. They(The American Left or So-Called
>Liberals) have tried or called for; Banning Popcorn in theatres.,
>Hamburgers(meat)., People smoking cigars in the privacy of their own
>homes, Un-PC Toys,various sports teams, old movies and now wargames,
>especially computer wargames. On and on utill no one is allowed to do
>anything because it offends someone or because it makes people do
>"things". Anytime something like this(Mass Murder) happens in the
>U.S. It's always something other than the guilty parties at fault.
>Killers; They played wargames= ban wargames. He liked trains=Ban model
>trains. They wore black hats and smoked cigars=Ban cigars and black
>hats. If you consider yourself a Leftist but don't think this way
>about such things, I apologise. Political correctness has just gone
>too far and it is now threatening another harmless pastime. The;
>"Blame something or someone other than the guilty party" crowd never
>gives up. J.O.S.
The phenomena you describe really has nothing to do with politics of the
"left" or "right" -- it results when some individual or organization
attempts to capitalize on current events and endorse policy ideas that
appear to satisfy the "popular reaction." You will find unscrupulous people
from both the left and the right threatening to impose ill-conceived
"controls" on unsanctioned behavior, whether it is playing rap music,
reading "un-american" books, or watching an androgynous make-believe
television character with purple skin and a triangular antenna. If you
really believe that "the Left" is synonymous with "PC" (examples of which
spring from both the "left" and the "right"), or even that "PC" represents a
coherent political ideology, you've been sucked in by the mish-mash
infotainment that substitutes for political debate in this country.
What any of this has to do with playing historical miniatures wargames is
becoming harder and harder to discern.
Brian Hodson
tomb...@muskegon.com
friends around deserve the infamy that goes with being a bully. They will
take to their grave the knowledge that it was their bullying that helpd to
bring this about.
Tom Bryant
In article <37218779...@erols.com>,
David <dl...@erols.com> wrote:
> High Schools have a feudal sociality with jocks and cheerleaders down
> through the loners and geeks. No insult is intend on anybody but we all
> know how bad kids can be on those who do not fit in. No an excuse just
> a thought....
>
> Minadmiral wrote:
> >
> > Bet noone is going to go into the responsibility
> > shared by the jocks who persecuted non jocks. Remember your own days in
> > school? Who was on top? Who was on the bottem?
> > Maybe a little more emphasis in the schools on getting along with everyone
> > would help.
> > Chuck
> >
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
J.O.S.
DucDallas
>problem is how people deal with it. There is nothing wrong with playing
>football. Football players aren't required to go around beating people up
>any more than non-athletes are required to get beaten.
>
Your reply is utterly pointless. Playing football has nothing to do with it
being self-centered jerks is the underlying problem. Unfortunately it only
takes one of these jerks to mess up the whole apple cart. Rarely did I see one
of the socalled underclass individual physically attack (and very rarely
verbally) one of gods chosen. Simple fact of life 200 pds of jerk rules over
100 pds of anyone else.
As to dealing with it that is the problem children are not trained to and your
sophistry about pecking order does NOT help. In actual fact it makes it worse.
Okay kid you got beat up (terrorized, teased insulted whatever), suck it up be
a man do not cry about it that's just life.
Why not tell the individual to lay back and enjoy it?
Lloyd
Ray Rangel
your
> sophistry about pecking order does NOT help. In actual fact it makes it
worse.
> Okay kid you got beat up (terrorized, teased insulted whatever), suck it
up be
> a man do not cry about it that's just life.
> Why not tell the individual to lay back and enjoy it?
>
> Lloyd
>
Let's just clarify something before we go on...
I never have, nor will I ever condone violence. Period. If you bothered to
read *any* of the things that I have written you not find *anywhere* where I
have stated that any kind of abuse is justified in any way. Period. I will
thank you not to put words in my mouth.
What I *have* said is that social stratification (pecking order) is a
natural thing. It's part of human nature. It is IMPOSSIBLE to prevent
because it is simply part of being human. So, if we can't prevent it then we
*have* to learn to deal with it. If social stratification causes a couple
individuals out of *millions* to go over the edge, then the problem is those
individuals ability to deal with society in which they exist.
I *have* said that some kids who are at the top of the social structure
abuse their position. These individuals also need to be identified and dealt
with. That bigger, smarter, faster, better looking, kids flaunt their assets
in face of others is simply a sign of immaturity much like blasting radios
in cars.
I *have* said that social stratification is not, itself, a bad thing. There
must be generals and there must be privates. If there weren't the human race
would still be rooting for grubs in the African veldt.
Life isn't fair. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes
people do just have to suck it up and get on with life in the face of
adversity. Kids need to learn how to do that.
My point is that we can't protect every kid from every bully they are gong
to meet throughout their lives. What's more, we make their problems worse if
we do. They never learn how to cope. What we *can* do is help them to
understand and deal with it.
Now, is that clear enough? If it's not, perhaps you should go read Lord of
the Flies or take a psychology course or something. Really, I expect more
from avocational historians. Why bother learning all that history of
humanity unless you are going to put it to some practical use?
As it is, this thread has gone on long enough. It has strayed far afield of
anything remotely connected to the hobby. Feel free to get in your parting
shots, but don't expect me to respond out of respect for those that don't
care to listen to, and yet must pay for the download of, a totally off topic
argument.
J.O.S.
>The phenomena you describe really has nothing to do with politics of the
>"left" or "right" -- it results when some individual or organization
>attempts to capitalize on current events and endorse policy ideas that
>appear to satisfy the "popular reaction." You will find unscrupulous people
>from both the left and the right threatening to impose ill-conceived
>"controls" on unsanctioned behavior, whether it is playing rap music,
>reading "un-american" books, or watching an androgynous make-believe
>television character with purple skin and a triangular antenna. If you
>really believe that "the Left" is synonymous with "PC" (examples of which
>spring from both the "left" and the "right"), or even that "PC" represents a
>coherent political ideology, you've been sucked in by the mish-mash
>infotainment that substitutes for political debate in this country.
>
>What any of this has to do with playing historical miniatures wargames is
>becoming harder and harder to discern.
>
>Brian Hodson
>
In the end, I don't think politics of any kind, no matter what the
practioners call themselves, should affect harmless things like
hobbies. I think wether someone plays with lead soldiers or not is
irrelevent to how society should be governed or not governed. Even if
those kids in Colorado were wargamers, They're still guilty,not the
wargames they played. They did it. Nothing made them do it. These are
just some of my thoughts. It's sad that such things have to affect
even this(hobby) aspect of people's lives. J.O.S.
John D Salt
Ray Rangel <ray.r...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[Huge snips]
>We can *enforce* non violence.
H'mmm. This reminds me of the gag "Why should we question
authority?" "Because I tell you to!"
All the best,
John.
--
John D Salt Dept of IS & Computing,| Barr's Law of Recursive Futility
Brunel U, Uxbridge, Middx UB8 3PH | [BLORF]: If you are smart enough
Disclaimers: I speak only for me. | to use one of these... you can
Launcher may train without warning.| probably manage without one.
Brian Hodson
J.O.S. wrote in message
<1AF495F6E15CC247.47EB52FB...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
> In the end, I don't think politics of any kind, no matter what the
>practioners call themselves, should affect harmless things like
>hobbies. I think wether someone plays with lead soldiers or not is
>irrelevent to how society should be governed or not governed. Even if
>those kids in Colorado were wargamers, They're still guilty,not the
>wargames they played. They did it. Nothing made them do it. These are
>just some of my thoughts. It's sad that such things have to affect
>even this(hobby) aspect of people's lives. J.O.S.
I'll agree with you here for the most part, but unless I'm mistaken, no one
yet has suggested that the reports that these kids played "wargames" is
resulting in any kind of backlash against our hobby. It appears that the
"shoot-em-up" computer games like "Doom" and "Duke Nuke'm" (who are now
defendants in a suit brought by parents of the Paducah, KY victims) are
getting some negative attention. But I'd say it's a pretty far stretch from
there to the lead-figure hobby. For the most part (as others have recently
bemoaned on this list) we're "below the radar screen" of most Americans, who
are more likely to think we're eccentric and harmless than threatening. If
anyone can produce evidence that anyone in the public arena has spoken out
specifically against historical miniatures games as a result of the
shootings in Colorado, I'm sure that we would all like to hear about it on
this list.
Brian Hodson
DucDallas
>to meet throughout their lives. What's more, we make their problems worse if
>we do. They never learn how to cope. What we *can* do is help them to
>understand and deal with it.
>
>Now, is that clear enough? If it's not, perhaps you should go read Lord of
>the Flies or take a psychology course or something. Really, I expect more
>from avocational historians. Why bother learning all that history of
>humanity unless you are going to put it to some practical use?
>
>As it is, this thread has gone on long enough. It has strayed far afield of
>anything remotely connected to the hobby. Feel free to get in your parting
>shots, but don't expect me to respond out of respect for those that don't
>care to listen to, and yet must pay for the download of, a totally off topic
>argument.
>
issue and offered insult.
Since your parting comment is to point out that this is an off topic argument,
(which you brought up initially with your social Darwinism) and any reply to
you is just a waste of time
Then all I can say is, so long!
Lloyd
moses
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <3723A7...@indiana.edu>...
>Only the first time. <G>
>
>A friend of mine has a rule in attributions and things you say:
>
>The first time, you have to say the name. "Dave Williams once said..."
>
>The second time, you can hedge. "Someone once said..."
>
>The third time, you can claim it as your own. "I've always said..."
That sounds suspiciously like the book '1984'!
Ian
AFisherJr
get your balls in an uproar?
Al
Al Fisher
13217 Deron Ave.
San Diego, CA 92129-2511
Phone: (619) 484-2816; email