[Btech] Why is it everyone hates Victor Steiner-Davion?
Gabe YEDID
Being somewhat less than fully up-to-date on the politics of the Inner
Sphere, I don't understand why everyone, both players and story
characters alike, seem to have it in for Victor Steiner-Davion. Is he
really that inept as a ruler and commander that he pretty much deserves
all the s**t his realm is in now? Or is it just fashionable to hate him
because of his alleged "Napoleon complex"? For starters, what did he
ever do to deserve betrayal by his sister (from her point of view)?
(Hm, just like the British royal family...the parents try to make
everything right (or at least seem like they are) and then the kids come
along and screw everything up). Where have the rest of his siblings
placed their loyalties--have they defected to the Lyran Alliance, did
they stay in the Fed. Suns, or has Victor holed them up on New Avalon to
make sure they don't try anything? Is he showing signs of going the same
route as Romano Liao (being hell-bent on revenge for his mother's
assassination or something)?
Note that none of this implies I'm a Victor fan...but he does seem to
want to beat the Clans, so that's 1+ in his favour.
Gabe
******************************************************************************
Gabe Yedid email: ga...@cs.mcgill.ca
Dept. of Biology, McGill University bl...@musicb.mcgill.ca
Montreal, Quebec, CANADA gye...@PO-Box.mcgill.ca
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and a national
airline--it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
--Frank Zappa
******************************************************************************
IG Cdr
The dislike of Victor baffles me as well. He is honorable, honest (as much
as any ruler can be), a sound military thinker and fairly selfless.
Catherine, aka Katrina, betrayed him without cause, and helped to slay her
own mother, she is a true subject of loathing. The underhanded scheme to
replace the Hier of the FWL with a clone is the only dirty trick I have
seen out of V.S.D., and Hanse left him with that mess anyway.
Capt. John McAllister, Jr.
CO 10th Striker Company
8th of the 151rst, ELH
William E. Ward
Gabe YEDID wrote:
>
> Being somewhat less than fully up-to-date on the politics of the Inner
> Sphere, I don't understand why everyone, both players and story
> characters alike, seem to have it in for Victor Steiner-Davion. Is he
> really that inept as a ruler and commander that he pretty much deserves
> all the s**t his realm is in now? Or is it just fashionable to hate him
> because of his alleged "Napoleon complex"? For starters, what did he
> ever do to deserve betrayal by his sister (from her point of view)?
> (Hm, just like the British royal family...the parents try to make
> everything right (or at least seem like they are) and then the kids come
> along and screw everything up). Where have the rest of his siblings
> placed their loyalties--have they defected to the Lyran Alliance, did
> they stay in the Fed. Suns, or has Victor holed them up on New Avalon to
> make sure they don't try anything? Is he showing signs of going the same
> route as Romano Liao (being hell-bent on revenge for his mother's
> assassination or something)?
>
> Note that none of this implies I'm a Victor fan...but he does seem to
> want to beat the Clans, so that's 1+ in his favour.
Gabe, the reason everyone in the stories hates Victor Steiner-Davion is
because it keeps selling books and sourcebooks. Lets face facts, if
Victor had no trouble with the FWL, no problems with the murderous,
matricidal, B**** sister of his (I DO NOT LIKE HER, GABE YOU ARE, I
WOULD CHOKE HER, NEAR AND FAR) </Katrina hating mode>, no problems
with the devious Sun Tzu, and no problems with the Clan, the Star
League would be reborn relatively quickly (yeah, I left out the DC)...
End of story, end of game, let's start Mekton.... and FASA doesn't want
that, and neither do we, so Victor is up to his elbows in alligators.
Victors a nice guy, everyone will probably admit that, as seen from
the books... Victor has two problems in his realm, one feeding off
the other: There are a number of people who do not like the idea of an
alliance between the FS and LC, and Katrina, who wants to be the ruler
of a country. When she is gone, I think you may see the FC back
together.
Outside his country, he has to balance the fact that Victor is NOT his
father, he does not believe in a quick reconquest of the Inner Sphere,
and so he wants GOOD relations with the DC and FWL (he would have
considered good relations with the CC, but for Sun Tzu...) and he
had to find the BEST way to keep them working together instead of apart.
Remember, Victor was going to allow the "imposter" to die off in a few
months, it just was a tad too soon... and he HAS maintained excellent
relations with the DC. If Kai Allard-Liao ever feels like Sun Tzu is
screwing over the CC people too badly, you may see a drastic change
in the entire politics of the Inner Sphere... after all, Kai is
the rightful ruler of the CC, as well as the SIC, and he is Victor's
friend. Hohiro Kurita is also going to be Coordinator of the DC,
and he has also become friendly with Victor. You may see him do
something
about Katrina one of these days... with the fact that Thomas Marik
is not Thomas Marik, but an imposter himself, you have a very
interesting
future to consider. Don't count Victor out...
--
William Ward
The Rare Mech Times
http://www.cs.odu.edu/~ward_w/btech.html
Chad Barnett
ig...@aol.com (IG Cdr) wrote:
>The dislike of Victor baffles me as well. He is honorable, honest (as much
>as any ruler can be), a sound military thinker and fairly selfless.
>Catherine, aka Katrina, betrayed him without cause, and helped to slay her
>own mother, she is a true subject of loathing. The underhanded scheme to
>replace the Hier of the FWL with a clone is the only dirty trick I have
>seen out of V.S.D., and Hanse left him with that mess anyway.
We don't all hate Victor Davion. Only the people who don't play
Fed-Com really dislike him, and those are mostly Capellans, who are
jealous that they don't have a leader with the skills Victor has as a
leader, and must resort to trickery to accomplish anything, but that
will soon end when Sun-Tzu starts barking at the moon as F-C troops
smash through his front line units and assault Sian.
Chad
Camille Klein
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) murdered some electrons to write:
[You're posting from a server named for a type of polearm. How....how...
appropriate *grin*]
# Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
# under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
# the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
<Siona>
Candace Liao forfeited all rights to the Celestial Throne for herself and
her Gaggle O' Bastards when she deserted her family. I don't care WHY
she did it!
# something in one of the books? But, yes, you are right he could
# take the CC if he wanted. (Now I need a heavy shield to protect
# me from CK when she sees that I called whatsname whatsname :-)
Kai Allard will have to get to the Celestial Throne by going through me
and every other Atreides in the Capellan Confederation (and there are a
helluva lot of us)!
# With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
# have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
# rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
# after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
# take a neutral position regarding her demise.
Time to dispatch the strikeforce. :)
# >Don't count Victor out...
# Only a silly Liao pet would ... </Camille--flame-bait--off>
Oh HO! You think I discount that little drekhead?! Boy, have you got
another thing coming!
</Siona>
--Camille.
--
I said it. You read it. I'm not taking it back.--Drew Lanz.
"My apologies, Mr. Speaker, but the honourable Member doesn't have the
brains of a demented canary."
Terrance Dunn-Roff
> Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
No Vlad (another Vlad?) Romano was the Baby sister, the older sister went
off to become mom.
>>
> Speaking of which ... I didn't yet read _all_ the books but I
> know that Thomas a is clone but I don't know if it was ever reveled
> what happned to the real Thomas and where he is now (if not 6 ft
> under). Until I read some of the older books I thought that Focht
> was him. The diff in age was a problem and then I found out that he
> was F. Steiner so there went that theory.
>
The rumor is that Marcos Shake of Cranston Snords Irregulars (later Rhonda Snords
Iregulars, Later Still...Clan Snord) Is in reality T.Marik. Slight memory problem
to massive traumatazation by the Old Com-Star (before the clans) is suspected...
(who else would do it?)
Check out the old Snord Irregulars Scenario book for more details.
Vlad sends
Vladimir Gabrielescu
In <31C841...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> "William E. Ward" <w...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> writes:
>relations with the DC. If Kai Allard-Liao ever feels like Sun Tzu is
>screwing over the CC people too badly, you may see a drastic change
>in the entire politics of the Inner Sphere... after all, Kai is
Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
something in one of the books? But, yes, you are right he could
take the CC if he wanted. (Now I need a heavy shield to protect
me from CK when she sees that I called whatsname whatsname :-)
> Hohiro Kurita is also going to be Coordinator of the DC,
>and he has also become friendly with Victor.
I thought he was already. Wait. Hohiro was the one traped and
rescued by Victor? Then you are right. His father is in power
as of "Wolf Pack".
>You may see him do something
>about Katrina one of these days...
With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
take a neutral position regarding her demise.
>with the fact that Thomas Marik
>is not Thomas Marik, but an imposter himself, you have a very
Speaking of which ... I didn't yet read _all_ the books but I
know that Thomas a is clone but I don't know if it was ever reveled
what happned to the real Thomas and where he is now (if not 6 ft
under). Until I read some of the older books I thought that Focht
was him. The diff in age was a problem and then I found out that he
was F. Steiner so there went that theory.
>Don't count Victor out...
Only a silly Liao pet would ... </Camille--flame-bait--off>
> William Ward
> The Rare Mech Times
> http://www.cs.odu.edu/~ward_w/btech.html
Vlad
--
Vladimir Gabrielescu NBCS Student System Programmer 1-908-445-5545
vgab...@toolbox.rutgers.edu http://nbcs.rutgers.edu/~vgabriel/
"Standards are so critical to the computer industry that they invent new
ones every six weeks." Bob Church in a.s.r
William E. Ward
Vladimir Gabrielescu wrote:
>
> In <31C841...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> "William E. Ward" <w...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> writes:
> >relations with the DC. If Kai Allard-Liao ever feels like Sun Tzu is
> >screwing over the CC people too badly, you may see a drastic change
> >in the entire politics of the Inner Sphere... after all, Kai is
> >the rightful ruler of the CC, as well as the SIC [snip]
>
> Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
> under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
> the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
> something in one of the books? But, yes, you are right he could
> take the CC if he wanted. (Now I need a heavy shield to protect
> me from CK when she sees that I called whatsname whatsname :-)
Nope, Kai Allard-Liao is the true, LEGAL heir to the Celestial Throne
of the Capellan Confederation. His mother, Candace, the current ruler
of the Saint Ives Compact, was the heir-apparant when she left the CC to
be with her lover, a deep underground mole implanted into the CC. When
she
left, she basically took the SIC with her. She personally killed her
sister,
Romano, and her sister's husband, Sun Tzu's father, for the attempted
assasination of her, and the murder of her husband, Justin Jiang Allard.
I think her words to Sun Tzu, who came into the death room while Candace
was still cleaning up were something like "Neither I nor my son wants
your throne, as long as you behave. Although we are friendly with the
Federated Commonwealth, we realize that the people of the Confederation
may not be best served by an alliance with them. However, if you EVER
harm or attempt to harm another member of my family, we WILL take you
down. Never forget, I am the "True" Chancellor of the confederation; I
simply have no desire to press my claim, nor does Kai. We are not your
enemy unless you make us so." or something like that. She then promised
that she knew more secrets about the palace than anyone alive or dead,
and that she could GUARENTEE that he would die if he tried anything.
Yeah, Kai is the LEGAL heir, he just doesn't want it....
> > Hohiro Kurita is also going to be Coordinator of the DC,
> >and he has also become friendly with Victor.
>
> I thought he was already. Wait. Hohiro was the one traped and
> rescued by Victor? Then you are right. His father is in power
> as of "Wolf Pack".
Yes, Theodore, Hohiro and Omi's father, is the Coordinator of the DC.
> >You may see him do something
> >about Katrina one of these days...
>
> With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
> have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
> rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
> after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
> take a neutral position regarding her demise.
Nope, he's figuring on putting her to pastuer in some monastary
somewhere,
where she can be controlled, watched, and guarded the rest of her
(hopefully
short) life. Hate that girl! She MURDERED Melissa!
> >with the fact that Thomas Marik
> >is not Thomas Marik, but an imposter himself, you have a very
>
> Speaking of which ... I didn't yet read _all_ the books but I
> know that Thomas a is clone but I don't know if it was ever reveled
> what happned to the real Thomas and where he is now (if not 6 ft
> under). Until I read some of the older books I thought that Focht
> was him. The diff in age was a problem and then I found out that he
> was F. Steiner so there went that theory.
>
> >Don't count Victor out...
>
> Only a silly Liao pet would ... </Camille--flame-bait--off>
Is that something like a Chia Pet?
> Vlad
--
Robert Blanchard
In article
<Pine.SUN.3.91.960618232834....@marge.cs.mcgill.ca>,
Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>Being somewhat less than fully up-to-date on the politics of the Inner
>Sphere, I don't understand why everyone, both players and story
>characters alike, seem to have it in for Victor Steiner-Davion. Is he
>really that inept as a ruler and commander that he pretty much deserves
>all the s**t his realm is in now? Or is it just fashionable to hate him
>because of his alleged "Napoleon complex"? For starters, what did he
>ever do to deserve betrayal by his sister (from her point of view)?
Nothing that I can figure out.
-----
Bob. "you give me one
r...@ior.com or bob...@aol.com phone call and I'll
MNA # 1484 give you another war" G.S Patton
http://www.ior.com/~rrb
Chad Barnett
Camille Klein <cap...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) murdered some electrons to write:
>[You're posting from a server named for a type of polearm. How....how...
>appropriate *grin*]
># Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
># under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
># the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
><Siona>
>Candace Liao forfeited all rights to the Celestial Throne for herself and
>her Gaggle O' Bastards when she deserted her family. I don't care WHY
>she did it!
Gaggle O' Bastards? I think you've gotta look up bastard in the
Dictionary Camille, or else you would know that Sun-Tzu Liao is the
Bastard, seeing how his parents where never married as far as I know.
># something in one of the books? But, yes, you are right he could
># take the CC if he wanted. (Now I need a heavy shield to protect
># me from CK when she sees that I called whatsname whatsname :-)
>Kai Allard will have to get to the Celestial Throne by going through me
>and every other Atreides in the Capellan Confederation (and there are a
>helluva lot of us)!
Hmmm, that doesn't seem like a large job, sort of like emptying the
trash. :)
># With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
># have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
># rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
># after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
># take a neutral position regarding her demise.
No, he should march to the LA and take her down himself, and he will
if he can ever get the support he needs.
>Time to dispatch the strikeforce. :)
># >Don't count Victor out...
># Only a silly Liao pet would ... </Camille--flame-bait--off>
>Oh HO! You think I discount that little drekhead?! Boy, have you got
>another thing coming!
></Siona>
Of course you haven't. How could you ignore someone who could destroy
the Capellan Confederation on a whim if he chose to.
Chad
Gabe YEDID
On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
> The dislike of Victor baffles me as well. He is honorable, honest (as much
> as any ruler can be), a sound military thinker and fairly selfless.
> Catherine, aka Katrina, betrayed him without cause, and helped to slay her
> own mother, she is a true subject of loathing. The underhanded scheme to
> replace the Hier of the FWL with a clone is the only dirty trick I have
> seen out of V.S.D., and Hanse left him with that mess anyway.
Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
Crichell or something. I bet the average Lyran doesn't know about that
though--if that was to get out, the whole Lyran military would probably
desert and jump off to New Avalon, and the Lyran citizenry would have no
trouble in accepting Victor as their ruler (or would they)? Did
Victor find out about that? [Focht, aka Frederick Steiner, doesn't have any
kind of plot up his sleeve to assume the Lyran leadership, does he?]
What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
condition (leukemia?), or was he assassinated as well? Fuuny, too,
because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
stunt isn't even the kid's father.
> Capt. John McAllister, Jr.
Anthony Kim
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: In <31C841...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> "William E. Ward" <w...@magician.larc.nasa.gov> writes:
: >relations with the DC. If Kai Allard-Liao ever feels like Sun Tzu is
: >screwing over the CC people too badly, you may see a drastic change
: >in the entire politics of the Inner Sphere... after all, Kai is
: >the rightful ruler of the CC, as well as the SIC [snip]
: Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
: under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
: the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
: something in one of the books? But, yes, you are right he could
: take the CC if he wanted. (Now I need a heavy shield to protect
: me from CK when she sees that I called whatsname whatsname :-)
:
Kai _is_ the rightful heir. How? Well, he is the oldest son of the oldest
child of Max Liao, the mad, bad, sad, dead ex-Chancellor of the Capellan
Confederation. IMO, if Sun Tzu, aka the Crap Weasel :) ever loses his
sanity like Grandpa, Kai will go after him, and more power to him. This is
referenced in "Blood Legacy". Have no doubt, if Kai ever decides to take
out Sun Tzu, nothing is going to stop him. Not the MAC aka the Theban
Sacred Band :), not the Barney Commandos, not the Warrior Houses, and not
the Red Heart Lancers.
[snip]
: With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
: have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
: rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
: after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
: take a neutral position regarding her demise.
My vote for a scenario-Victor uses the assassin that killed Ryan and
Melissa to take out the Ice Queen. The blame gets pinned on Sun Tzu Liao,
since he is hostile towards his uncle, Tormano, who was a close advisor to
Katherine S-D. Vlad is overcome and driven to madness by the death of his
One True Love (tm), and launches his forces into the Inner Sphere, thus
starting up the invasion again. As the Lyran Alliance military has been
weakened by purges and has reverted back to the old ineffectual tactics,
LAAF is indeed laughable, and the Snot Chickens roll over them. Victor
still claims responsibility for the Lyran sector, so he re-asserts control
of it and tries to defend it against the Clans. Tormano, in the meantime,
persuades an element of Loki to go after Sun Tzu and take him out. Sun Tzu
dies, and mad sister Kali takes over. She thinks Marik is responsible and
executes Isis Marik. Thomas goes ballistic and invades the Capellan
Confederation. Kai, sympathetic to the plight of the Capellans, aids them
against the FWL.
Sounds like an episode of "As the Inner Sphere Turns", eh? :)
-Tony Kim
Chad Barnett
Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
>Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
>the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
>Crichell or something.
Not Crichell, Vlad killed him moments after he was made Il-Khan. I
think Vlad Ward has a thing for her though.
> I bet the average Lyran doesn't know about that
>though--if that was to get out, the whole Lyran military would probably
>desert and jump off to New Avalon, and the Lyran citizenry would have no
>trouble in accepting Victor as their ruler (or would they)? Did
>Victor find out about that? [Focht, aka Frederick Steiner, doesn't have any
>kind of plot up his sleeve to assume the Lyran leadership, does he?]
Focht apparently has no ambitions anymore to assume the Lyran throne.
When he was offered it by the old Primus, he bumped her off and got
one that would stay out of politics better.
>What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
>condition (leukemia?), or was he assassinated as well? Fuuny, too,
>because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
>stunt isn't even the kid's father.
NAIS couldn't cure Joshua and he took a turn for the worst, so I
believe they stopped giving him medicine when he could no longer be
helped, and let him die. A Marik is Joshua's Father, he's just not
Isis's Father, who is the daughter of the real Tomas Marik.
Chad
Coyote the Sasquatch
Legally, Kai has a stronger claim to the throne of the CC than Sun-Tzu
because his mother, Candace Liao, is Maximillian's eldest child,and would
have held the throne had she not married Justin Allard. Kai could take
the CC and have a legal right to it. Provided, of course, that his
cousins didn't kill him in the process. Kali.... <shudder>
Coyote
Coyote the Sasquatch
Careful, Siona. Kai Allard-Liao has earned quite a reputation for doing
the improbable. If the Clans could not stop him, TWICE, what chance have
the followers of a bloodline of lunatics? It is a good thing he is on our
side....
Commander John Radick, 'Coyote'
CO, Spirit Company
Legion of the Rising Sun
Camille Klein
Coyote the Sasquatch (jo...@midgard.cbi.msstate.edu) murdered some electrons to write:
# Legally, Kai has a stronger claim to the throne of the CC than Sun-Tzu
# because his mother, Candace Liao, is Maximillian's eldest child,and would
# have held the throne had she not married Justin Allard. Kai could take
Candace abandoned her birthright when she deserted us in our darkest
hour. Neither she nor Kai nor ANY of the Allard-kin have any claim at
all to the Celestial Throne (and I'll fight to the death anyone who dares
dispute that)!
# the CC and have a legal right to it. Provided, of course, that his
# cousins didn't kill him in the process. Kali.... <shudder>
No--provided the Guardian of the Celestial Throne doesn't kill him in the
process. *evil grin*
Camille Klein
# the improbable. If the Clans could not stop him, TWICE, what chance have
# the followers of a bloodline of lunatics? It is a good thing he is on our
# side....
I am not the Clans, and Kai Allard can only do the improbable, not the
impossible.
Anthony Kim
Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
:
: Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
: the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
Uh, Gabe, Elias Crichell is dead. Battletech has gotten bizarre enough
lately without adding necrophilia into the mix. :)
:
: What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
: because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
: stunt isn't even the kid's father.
real Thomas. And Joshua did succumb to leukemia. I think it is mentioned
in "Bred for War".
-Tony Kim
Overste Lojtnant, Free Rasalhague Republic Marine Corps
Why join the FRR? One reason: mixed race Swedish-Japanese women! :)
A Circle of Equals I would like to see: Kali Liao vs. Katherine S-D
Vladimir Gabrielescu
In <4q9la2$c...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Camille Klein <cap...@primenet.com> writes:
>[You're posting from a server named for a type of polearm. How....how...
>appropriate *grin*]
Hehe ... Yup ... The lochaber axe was the inspiration for it. The only
error is that is not a server, but my workstation.
><Siona>
>Candace Liao forfeited all rights to the Celestial Throne for herself and
>her Gaggle O' Bastards when she deserted her family. I don't care WHY
>she did it!
There still is such a thing as freedom of choice. Why would he be
considered a deserter if she decided that she would like to relocate?
You can be mad because she ruled a part of your empire after it was
taken from you but not with her choice to leave a family she despised.
>Kai Allard will have to get to the Celestial Throne by going through me
>and every other Atreides in the Capellan Confederation (and there are a
>helluva lot of us)!
None said it would be easy. But I doubt at the end you would be still
standing if it comes to a fight. I was thinking more on the lines of
politics.
>Oh HO! You think I discount that little drekhead?! Boy, have you got
>another thing coming!
></Siona>
Darn. If you _would_ have discounted him would have made our life a
lot easier. Darn. Now we have to do it the hard way. :-)
>--Camille.
Anthony Evans
The federated Commenwealth the strongest, smartest, and most
industrial of all the houses will be reunited. Some how and
some way. I will kill victor davion-steiners sister, expose
for what she is, and reunite the federated Commenwealth.
Silencer
Commander of Eridin Light Horse
Commander of Heavy Calvary
"Glory, Honor, what does this all mean? To most Money to us
Hope for a reunited Federated Commenwealth"
Sacha Wilberg
Und es sprach jemand namens Gabe YEDID die folgenden Worte:
: What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
: condition (leukemia?), or was he assassinated as well? Fuuny, too,
: because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
: stunt isn't even the kid's father.
The (probably) real Thomas Marik doesn't know that he is who is is, too,
so I think the double-on-throne doesn't know that he is a fake.
Greetings,
--
__ __
/ \./ \/\_
__{!\_ _e_ ) e/!\ Sacha....@uni-duisburg.de
/ /\_/!\._e_/ // /
( (__{(@)e\__e.//_/__A____A_______A________A________A_____A___A___A______
\__/{/(_)\_e )\\ \\---v-----V-----V---Y-----v----Y------v-----V-----v---
( (__)_)_/ )\ \>
\__/ \__/\/\/ 'I never promised You a rosegarden.'
\__,--'
Øystein Tvedten
On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:03:10 -0400, Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> said:
> On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
>> The dislike of Victor baffles me as well. He is honorable, honest (as much
>> as any ruler can be), a sound military thinker and fairly selfless.
>> Catherine, aka Katrina, betrayed him without cause, and helped to slay her
>> own mother, she is a true subject of loathing. The underhanded scheme to
>> replace the Hier of the FWL with a clone is the only dirty trick I have
>> seen out of V.S.D., and Hanse left him with that mess anyway.
> Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
> the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
> Crichell or something. I bet the average Lyran doesn't know about that
> though--if that was to get out, the whole Lyran military would probably
> desert and jump off to New Avalon, and the Lyran citizenry would have no
> trouble in accepting Victor as their ruler (or would they)? Did
> Victor find out about that? [Focht, aka Frederick Steiner, doesn't have any
> kind of plot up his sleeve to assume the Lyran leadership, does he?]
Yes Victor knows quite well about it, he found it out about the same
time he found out Ryan Steiner was behind it as well, and had him
assassinated. This was at the same time Ryan Steiner managed to get
Galen Cox assassinated as well with a bomb (which Galen escaped, and
went undercover with his new alias (forget the name)). The problem is
that lots of people in the LA and FC belives Victor killed his mother,
because of the very nice way Katrina set it up, not waiting with the
funeral untill he'd gotten there, and so on, over the last year or so
in the timeline, Vic has become more unpopular within the LA faction
of his realm. The business with Joshua and the losses he made to CC
and FWL are bound to not make him that much more popular.
> What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
> condition (leukemia?), or was he assassinated as well? Fuuny, too,
> because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
> stunt isn't even the kid's father.
Joshua was uncurable, and he died in the end of his condition, at
which point Victor put in a clone, so that Thomas would be a nice boy,
and make Victor all his toys.
About Thomas not being Joshua's father, thats incorrect. The current
Thomas Marik, soon to be Primus of the Word of Blake (based on Terra),
*is* the biological father of Joshua Marik, but is NOT the biological
father of Isis Marik. The Switch(tm) (if Any) was made while Thomas
was on Terra being healed after the bomb which killed his father.
There are some rumors about that one of the Snordlings looks
identically to Marik, and has no memory of his past (I dunno which
sourcebook or module this surfaces, would like to know :)
Yours,
Oystein Tvedten
PS - Hey FASA - got a room for a historian at your place ? ;))
--
Roy Batty: I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the
Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in
rain. Time to die.
Martin Brumm
Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
: Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
: the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
: Crichell or something.
Apparently she found another Friend in the Clans -> Malicious Intent
: I bet the average Lyran doesn't know about that
: though--if that was to get out, the whole Lyran military would probably
: desert and jump off to New Avalon, and the Lyran citizenry would have no
: trouble in accepting Victor as their ruler (or would they)? Did
: Victor find out about that? [Focht, aka Frederick Steiner, doesn't have any
: kind of plot up his sleeve to assume the Lyran leadership, does he?]
No from the Way the Story is lead by Stackpole i assume that AF will sooner
or later manage to get the "most" IS-Houses in line behind him and
either lead the Houses back into a StarLeague or arrange the IS
with the Clans.
Interesting thought aside. What happens if the IS itself refounds the
Starleague under the same "conditions" as to the time before the
Amaris revolt ? Will the clans continue to attack ? Wouldnt
that be in contradiction to the "Hidden Hope" ?
: What was the deal with Joshua Marik, anyway? Did he succumb to his
: condition (leukemia?), or was he assassinated as well? Fuuny, too,
: because the man who was so "stricken with grief and anger" over the clone
: stunt isn't even the kid's father.
Wrong he is Joshua's Father, but Isis isnt his daughter.
: > Capt. John McAllister, Jr.
: >
: Gabe
Martin
aka Neutron
--
Martin Brumm <br...@wcpj2.chemie.uni-wuppertal.de>
Inst. f. theoretische Chemie Tel: ++49-202-4393452
BUGH Wuppertal FAX: ++49-202-4393452
Germany
Anthony Kim
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) wrote:
:
: ><Siona>
: >Candace Liao forfeited all rights to the Celestial Throne for herself and
: >her Gaggle O' Bastards when she deserted her family. I don't care WHY
: >she did it!
:
: There still is such a thing as freedom of choice. Why would he be
: considered a deserter if she decided that she would like to relocate?
: You can be mad because she ruled a part of your empire after it was
: taken from you but not with her choice to leave a family she despised.
For some reason, I am reminded of the following quote, I forgot who said
it...
Treason doth never prosper
For if it doth succeed
None dare call it treason.
Well, Candace Liao has managed to keep her nation peaceful and prosperous,
in comparison to the hellhole (for civilians, anyway) that the CC has
become. So is it really treason? :)
-Tony Kim
Overste Lojtnant, Free Rasalhague Republic Marine Corps
Why join the FRR? One reason: mixed Swedish-Japanese women!
Kenneth Petruzzelli
Camille Klein (cap...@primenet.com) wrote:
:
: Kai Allard will have to get to the Celestial Throne by going through me
: helluva lot of us)!
Somehow I doubt that the Atreides family will play much of a role
in one of Stackpole's novels, so I really don't think it's a realistic
factor in any speculation.
Ken
Camille Klein
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) murdered some electrons to write:
# Hehe ... Yup ... The lochaber axe was the inspiration for it. The only
# error is that is not a server, but my workstation.
Okay, so I'm not omniscient (I never claimed to be, so all you enemies of
mine can sod off instead of jumping on this). :) You and I should get
together and talk polearms sometime. :)
<Siona>
# >Candace Liao forfeited all rights to the Celestial Throne for herself and
# >her Gaggle O' Bastards when she deserted her family. I don't care WHY
# >she did it!
# There still is such a thing as freedom of choice. Why would he be
# considered a deserter if she decided that she would like to relocate?
Bah. She decided to go to the service of the Davion Menace rather than
take her place as Chancellor. She deserted, period.
# You can be mad because she ruled a part of your empire after it was
# taken from you but not with her choice to leave a family she despised.
Feh. Her family needed her--her father needed her! And what did she
do? She bailed. You want me to respect her for running the St. Ives
March of the FC? Yeahright, go tell it to the Free Rasalhague Marine Corps.
# None said it would be easy. But I doubt at the end you would be still
# standing if it comes to a fight. I was thinking more on the lines of
# politics.
If it comes to a fight, I'll fight to the bloody bitter end--and it
*will* come to a fight, whether on the field or in the House of Scions
and the Prefectorate.
# >Oh HO! You think I discount that little drekhead?! Boy, have you got
# >another thing coming!
# Darn. If you _would_ have discounted him would have made our life a
# lot easier. Darn. Now we have to do it the hard way. :-)
Bring 'em on!
</Siona>
Camille Klein
Kenneth Petruzzelli (ez05...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu) murdered some electrons to write:
# Somehow I doubt that the Atreides family will play much of a role
# in one of Stackpole's novels, so I really don't think it's a realistic
# factor in any speculation.
<realistically speaking>
I know, Ken. But it's still nice to dream innit?
*sigh*
</realistically speaking>
Gabe Yedid
> oyst...@ifi.uio.no (Øystein Tvedten) writes:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:03:10 -0400, Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> said:
>
> Yes Victor knows quite well about it, he found it out about the same
> time he found out Ryan Steiner was behind it as well, and had him
> assassinated. This was at the same time Ryan Steiner managed to get
> Galen Cox assassinated as well with a bomb (which Galen escaped, and
Ok, if he does know, he has absolutely no reason to show her any mercy. But this thing
between her and Vlad Ward...if I were Victor, I'd be scared of that. Those two could be a
very dangerous pair together. What are the relations like between the Kells/Warden
Wolves and Katherine?
> went undercover with his new alias (forget the name)). The problem is
> that lots of people in the LA and FC belives Victor killed his mother,
> because of the very nice way Katrina set it up, not waiting with the
Does Victor have any aces in the hole he could use to expose Katherine's role in the plot?
Seems the one man (Ryan) who could have proved her guilt is dead, so...
And oh yeah: how did the whole business affect Victor's relationship with Omi? Or has
that fizzled out by now?
> Joshua was uncurable, and he died in the end of his condition, at
> which point Victor put in a clone, so that Thomas would be a nice boy,
> and make Victor all his toys.
I wonder if things would have occurred differently if Victor had come clean about Joshua's
death. (Hm, 1000 years in the future and they still can't cure cancer) Or was Marik just
looking for an excuse to declare war on a weakened FC, and this was just the impetus he
needed?
> About Thomas not being Joshua's father, thats incorrect. The current
> Thomas Marik, soon to be Primus of the Word of Blake (based on Terra),
> *is* the biological father of Joshua Marik, but is NOT the biological
> father of Isis Marik. The Switch(tm) (if Any) was made while Thomas
> was on Terra being healed after the bomb which killed his father.
Er, how long ago did that occur? I hadn't heard anything about that.
> There are some rumors about that one of the Snordlings looks
> identically to Marik, and has no memory of his past (I dunno which
> sourcebook or module this surfaces, would like to know :)
But where's the real Thomas Marik then? Has he been brainwashed, and is now in the
WoB hierarchy? Comatose in some WoB medical facility?
> Yours,
> Oystein Tvedten
> PS - Hey FASA - got a room for a historian at your place ? ;))
> --
Gabe
Solarmech
Know one knows where the real Thomas M is. Victor got the idea that The
old Comstar (WOB) might have hidden his in FedCom space since they have
the best medical in the IS. Personally I think that the fake Thomas does
not know his is a fake.
Dave RoaE Mescher
Gabe Yedid (gye...@PO-Box.McGill.CA) wrote:
: > oyst...@ifi.uio.no (Øystein Tvedten) writes:
: > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:03:10 -0400, Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> said:
: >
: > > On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
: > Yes Victor knows quite well about it, he found it out about the same
: > time he found out Ryan Steiner was behind it as well, and had him
: > assassinated. This was at the same time Ryan Steiner managed to get
: > Galen Cox assassinated as well with a bomb (which Galen escaped, and
: Ok, if he does know, he has absolutely no reason to show her any mercy. But this thing
: between her and Vlad Ward...if I were Victor, I'd be scared of that. Those two could be a
: very dangerous pair together. What are the relations like between the Kells/Warden
: Wolves and Katherine?
Ice Queen royally hates their guts. Or more accurately, she despises
Morgan right now and doesn't think too highly of Phelan & Co. Also,
Shrimp-Boy doesn't know of the fling btwn Katherine and Vlad the Bad.
: > went undercover with his new alias (forget the name)). The problem is
: > that lots of people in the LA and FC belives Victor killed his mother,
: > because of the very nice way Katrina set it up, not waiting with the
: Does Victor have any aces in the hole he could use to expose Katherine's role in the plot?
: Seems the one man (Ryan) who could have proved her guilt is dead, so...
: And oh yeah: how did the whole business affect Victor's relationship with Omi? Or has
: that fizzled out by now?
It's been back-burnered, I think. As to holes in the plot, Shrimp-Boy
only has circumstantial evidence...
: > About Thomas not being Joshua's father, thats incorrect. The current
: > Thomas Marik, soon to be Primus of the Word of Blake (based on Terra),
: > *is* the biological father of Joshua Marik, but is NOT the biological
: > father of Isis Marik. The Switch(tm) (if Any) was made while Thomas
: > was on Terra being healed after the bomb which killed his father.
: Er, how long ago did that occur? I hadn't heard anything about that.
3040-ish, I think.
: > There are some rumors about that one of the Snordlings looks
: > identically to Marik, and has no memory of his past (I dunno which
: > sourcebook or module this surfaces, would like to know :)
The Irregular's SB.
: But where's the real Thomas Marik then? Has he been brainwashed, and is now in the
: WoB hierarchy? Comatose in some WoB medical facility?
Nobody knows.
--
Dave Mescher, co-owner Nex-Tech Industries.
"The difficult is in assembly, the impossible in R&D."
Offices on Tharkad, Luthien, New Avalon, Sian, Atreus, Strana Mechty,
Wolverine-Prime, and Blacksburg, Virginia, Terra.
Xizor
Msg ID: <4q9jhr$1...@lochaber.rutgers.edu>
From: vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu (Vladimir Gabrielescu)
Subject: Re: [Btech] Why is it everyone hates Victor Steiner-Davion?
Date: 19 Jun 1996 15:14:03 -0400
>Is he? I don't mean to start a religious war about it but I was
>under the impression that Sun Tzu, being the sun of Rommanno,
>the daugther of whatsname, was the rightful leader. Did I miss
Actually, Candace Liao was the designated heir to the throne of the CC
because Tormano Liao, the son of Maximillian Liao, is useless.
When Candace left, Romano seized the reins of rulership from her then
mad and demented father. If I am not wrong, she have her father shot
too.
In short, Kai Allard-Liao, being the eldest grandson, and the son of
the heir designate, will be the rightful ruler of the CC.
>With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
>have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
>rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
>after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
>take a neutral position regarding her demise.
Actually, if Victor has learned all his lessons well, he would not
have killed Katherine himself. He would have this grand elaborate plan
to expose her, and the Kells Hounds, and the 12th Wolf Guards under
Khan Phelan Kell, will invade and turn Tharkad into cinders under her
name. Khan Phelan will not hestitate to shoot the bitch Katherine
Steiner to avenge his mother... and I presume that the Gray Death who
had so much shit from the Skye Separatists wouldn't hestitate to
avenge some of their dead and place the blame of Katherine Steiner as
well. :)
Xizor
(red...@singnet.com.sg)
" Great Warriors? Wars no make one great. " --- Yoda.
Kenneth Petruzzelli
KILLIEN (kil...@aol.com) wrote:
: Chad did write << A Marik is Joshua's Father, he's just not
: Isis's Father, who is the daughter of the real Tomas Marik.>>
: Maybe she is the daughter of the real thomas marik mabe not
: -kil
:
Isis is the daughter of the real Thomas Marik. Joshua was the
son of the clone. Most likely, the switch was made while in the time
that Thomas was away. He chowed up at a very convenient time and the
scars and injuries are enough of an excuse to cover for minor
differences. The million dollar question though, is what does he want?
While he has allied with WoB, he does not ascribe to their point of
view. I think he's using them, and once again the question is why (of
course, WoB may decide they don't really need Thomas anymore now that
they have Terra). Thomas's plans also seem to involve the Knights of the
Inner Sphere, and it seems like he wants them to be what Comstar should
be, something that combines technological guidance with a sense of
purpose. As mentioned is Star Lord, the Knights of the IS were not
formed to be just another elite unit but an example. Again - why?
Ken
KILLIEN
Wolf
Řystein Tvedten wrote:
> Yes Victor knows quite well about it, he found it out about the same
> time he found out Ryan Steiner was behind it as well, and had him
> assassinated. This was at the same time Ryan Steiner managed to get
> Galen Cox assassinated as well with a bomb (which Galen escaped, and
> went undercover with his new alias (forget the name)).
Galen went under the alias of Jerrard Cranston. He became Victors
Secretary of Intelligence after Alex Mallory retired.
Jason Roysdon
Subject: Re: [Btech] Why is it everyone hates Victor Steiner-Davion?
In article <31c9723e...@news.singnet.com.sg>, red...@singnet.com.sg
says...
> Msg ID: <4q9jhr$1...@lochaber.rutgers.edu>
> From: vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu (Vladimir Gabrielescu)
> Subject: Re: [Btech] Why is it everyone hates Victor Steiner-Davion?
> Date: 19 Jun 1996 15:14:03 -0400
[Stuff Deleted]
>
>
> >With all due respect, I think that Victor (whom I like) would
> >have a fit if anyone gets the chance to "remodel" his sisters
> >rectum before he does. I would expect him to kill her himself
> >after all the shit he got. However he may be smart enough to
> >take a neutral position regarding her demise.
>
> Actually, if Victor has learned all his lessons well, he would not
> have killed Katherine himself. He would have this grand elaborate plan
> to expose her, and the Kells Hounds, and the 12th Wolf Guards under
> Khan Phelan Kell, will invade and turn Tharkad into cinders under her
> name. Khan Phelan will not hestitate to shoot the bitch Katherine
> Steiner to avenge his mother... and I presume that the Gray Death who
> had so much shit from the Skye Separatists wouldn't hestitate to
> avenge some of their dead and place the blame of Katherine Steiner as
> well. :)
>
In _Malicious Intent_, Victor finds out that Kai and Phelan both know
that Victor is innocent, and furthermore that they both believe Katherine
to be the real force behind the killing of Melissa. Once Victor learns
this, he mentions something about sacking Tharkad, or at least going
after Katherine to Phelan Ward. Phelan tells him something to the tune
of, "Now is not the time."
>
> Xizor
> (red...@singnet.com.sg)
>
> " Great Warriors? Wars no make one great. " --- Yoda.
--
z
\\// z
( --)
/-----------------------oOO-(__)-OOo-/--------------------------\
| Jason Roysdon, aka Snapple, aka SnapplMan |
| |
| sna...@mailhost.net Forwards to the following |
| addresses (but doesn't always work) |
| jroy...@edgeis.com Work email |
| droy...@inreach.com Personal home ISP email |
| 0x6B4147E5: C5 1E FB 67 4A DB EA C8 30 CA 35 DB 66 60 46 93 |
| Homepage - http:/www.inreach.com/personals/droysdon/jroysdon/ |
| BTech Berkeley mirror - ftp://206.215.230.35/btech/berkeley/ |
\---------------------------------------------------------------/
JRandom
Personally, I think that the next BIg event in the IS will be the
Third Marik Civil War. Isis's marriage to Sun-Tzu is not being
well-received in many quarters of the League, especially in
Parliment. I think most MPs will see this as a sellout of the League
by "Thomas" to the Capellans. I can forsee a major effort in Parliment
to remove "Thomas" and replace him as Captain-General by Kristen Marik
(Janos' youngest daughter). At least her identity, parentage and
loyalty are NOT in question. If the information of Thomas' identity is
leaked to various members of Parliment, this could be the lever to
remove him.
As for the marriage itself, I think Sun-Tzu will be lucky to avoid
assassination before and after the wedding. Oriente will immediately
rebel, along with Regulus, what's left of Andurien, and most of the
smaller member states of the League, along with their associated House
units, which are among the elite of the FWL military. They will most
likely be joined by SAFE, because they still remember the humiliation
of not catching Anton Marik's plotting with Mad Max before the Second
Marik Civil War, and they don't trust the Capellans any farther than
they can throw a Monolith! If Thomas' safety comes into question, the
Knights of the Inner Sphere and the Word of Blake will most likely get
directly involved. So we now have a realm-wide civil war involving two
fairly equally matched sides and motivation for both for using all
sorts of dirty terrorist tricks. Can you say BLOODY mess?
As for Katherine, apparently she never studied her family history.
What she's attempting to do with Vlad is what her Uncle Michael tried
doing with Mad Max and everyone remembers what happened to him.
Dealing with an enemy known for ruthlessness to eliminate a hated
rival is slightly safer than running naked under a launching
Dropship, but not by very much. I think Tormana may become more and
more alarmed at this "accommodation" or "understanding" she has with
the Wolves. He may make contact with LIC and DMI agents stationed in
the Triad and quietly put her away in a non-lethal manner. An
"accommodation" with the Clans, who threaten to destroy our society
and rebuild it for themselves? Sounds more than slightly irrational to
me. It's been centuries since Dombrowski's Depression-A syndrome has
made an appearance in the Steiner bloodline, but those damned
recessives do take time to re-emerge. Obviously, Katherine is
suffering from a severe case. Victor must remove her as soon as
possible for her own safety and that of the Lyran people (who still
remember Margaret Olsen) and put her in medical isolation with the
best medical care of course! :) I would suggest either the facility
on Poulesbo or perhaps the family estates on Gallery.
As for Victor, I think that the adventure on Coventry was his final
emergence from the long shadow (however inadvertently cast) by his
father. I do believe he is poised to unofficially take the
"unofficial" title of Defender of the Inner Sphere (normally reserved
for the Regent or Heir of the Star League) from Focht. I do believe he
will be ably supported by his friends Kai, Hohiro and Jerrard Cranston
as well as the rest of the AFFC. At this juncture, he has won the
respect of, if not the leaders of the other realms, at least that of
the senior military advisors to such leaders.
Finally, for the Clans, if they do not elect a Great Captain as IlKhan
this time around, I think the invasion will be halted within 5 years.
As it is now, the Clans are too tribal, contentious and too prone to
impose solutions by force amongst themselves to join together as a
unified fighting force. United under a Great Captain with the
diplomatic skills, vision and inspirational leadership of, say a
Julius Caesar or a Marlborough or a Hannibal, they may have a chance
to outmanuever and outflank the Inner Sphere. Without that, each Clan
touman is on it's own. Imagine a Clan unit trying to stand up to an
Inner Sphere liberation force of about 2 RCTs about a couple of weeks
after a bloody Trial of Possesion against another Clan.
As of now, about 75% of the forces that started Operation Revival are
no more. Each Clan has taken horrific (for them) losses that haven't
been felt since the Pentagon Wars. Even Vlad admitted he will have to
do some massive recruiting among the lower castes to refill his TO&E.
Don't forget that the forces leading the Invasion were not only the
Clans who won their trials, but the units and warriors within each
Clan to win their trials. In other words, the best of the best of the
Clans stormed into this holy war. Now, after horrific losses, the
Clans will try to rebuild. How many of the elite warriors are left?
Judging from the material in the sourcebooks, not many. Their
replacements will be less skillled, less experienced and far less
seasoned. For the 20% of the sibkos who survive to pass a Trial of
Position, how many will survive the first year on the Border? If
history is any judge, I'd say about 40%.
The Clan supply situation is also desperate. The pipeline is 6 months
long. That means any request now will take nearly a year to be filled
from the Homeworlds. The Clans haven't begun manufacturing any
advanced components or equipment in the Occupation Zones, so any
advanced gear like Elemental Suits, OmniMechs and pods, as well as any
Warship components wil have to come by convoy. The Clans have captured
several factories from the IS, but have done little in the way of
refurbishing them. Even if they did, the detailed engineering on all
advanced components would probably find it's way to NAIS and other
places within a couple of years. DMI, LIC and ISF are running totally
unimpeded in the Occupation Zones, and industrial espionage is a
time-honored business practice in the IS!
Where are the Clan Warships getting routine maintenance? The only
shipyard in the Occupation Zone is Camelot Command. The Jade Falcons
have Aegis-class cruisers that were old when the Star League was
formed! Don't tell me that any 700 year old vessel doesn't require
regular maintenance! I can forsee major battles fought in and around
Camelot Command because of this. Because of the length and the
primary nature of the Clan supply line, it the coming IS naval task
force decides to go raiding, the Clans will be hard pressed to
redistribute meager resources to protect the convoys. It worked well
for the Germans in 2 World Wars, even if they were an inferior naval
power compared to the British.
But one of the most fatal mistakes the Clans have made, is ignoring
the lessons of Von Clauswitz, in making war a foreign policy GOAL as
opposed to a foriegn policy TOOL!
"To us tortoises, ten years is nothing. Ten years is not enough time
to season a good warrior, much less train cadres to oppose you."
Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, "Lost Destiny"
Lt Gen Steven Revons
1st FC Armored Cavalry
"The Point of the Sword"
KILLIEN
ken Did Write << Isis is the daughter of the real Thomas Marik.
son of the clone. Most likely, the switch was made while in the time
that Thomas was away. >>
then Isis IS NOT his, i think the switch occured before he left the Holy
Order to Assume his place by his father's side the timing is right for ROM
to ferret out the details of how mad max did it. The 0nly problem i have
with this thoery is that it is somthing Waterly would do not tulipeio?
-kil
Xizor
Msg ID: <31CADB...@mailhost.net>
From: Jason Roysdon <sna...@mailhost.net>
Subject: Re: [Btech] Why is it everyone hates Victor Steiner-Davion?
>In _Malicious Intent_, Victor finds out that Kai and Phelan both know
>that Victor is innocent, and furthermore that they both believe Katherine
>to be the real force behind the killing of Melissa. Once Victor learns
>this, he mentions something about sacking Tharkad, or at least going
>after Katherine to Phelan Ward. Phelan tells him something to the tune
>of, "Now is not the time."
I said Phelan is wise. Attacking Katherine the bitch anytime now, even
if the evidence is out, is not going to prove anything.
The only way to do it, will be to have Katherine exposed of her crimes
before all the people of the Lyran Alliance. I am sure many still
loved Melissa Arthur Steiner dearly, and many units of the Alliance
will travel to Tharkad to kill Katherine themselves.
Gabriel YEDID
Chad Barnett (chad...@intergate.bc.ca) wrote:
: Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:
: >On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
: >Good God, Katherine was in on that plot? I hope the LA crumbles under
: >the Falcon's claws then--maybe she'll end up as a sex slave to Elias
: >Crichell or something.
: Not Crichell, Vlad killed him moments after he was made Il-Khan. I
: think Vlad Ward has a thing for her though.
OK, so what's the current Jade Falcon leadership like then? Has Marthe
Pryde become senior Khan? Or was she in the wrong place at the wrong
time, too?
: Focht apparently has no ambitions anymore to assume the Lyran throne.
: When he was offered it by the old Primus, he bumped her off and got
: one that would stay out of politics better.
Aw, that ruins what could have been a great scenario. Think of it: the
Falcons come in and roll over the Lyran Alliance military, despite all
their nice new Gauss-loving assault lances. Focht and the Com Guards,
with a little help from the AFFC, come in and beat the Falcons back
across the truce line. The CG remain in the LA (or what's left of it, it
is assumed Katherine dies in the invasion) under the pretense of
restoring order and peace, and Focht appears publicly saying "Guess what
everyone! I'm ba-ack!" And the lyrans are all too happy to accept him as
their leader.
: Chad
Gabe
******************************************************************************
Gabe Yedid email: ga...@cs.mcgill.ca
Dept. of Biology, McGill University bl...@musicb.mcgill.ca
Montreal, Quebec, CANADA gye...@PO-Box.mcgill.ca
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and a national
airline--it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
--Frank Zappa
******************************************************************************
Gabriel YEDID
Well, I'm amazed this thread actually spawned as many replies as it did.
Thanks to all for bringing me up to speed on the IS political scene.
From what I can make out, Victor is unfit to rule for just one reason:
his character is exactly the opposite of that which has made successful
rulers in the IS: namely, selfishness, deviousness and
cold-bloodedness. He tried to be devious once, and it blew up in his face. So
I don't think we'll be seeing too many underhanded plots out of him in the
future.
I think that the story brains at FASA (and Stackpole) would probably have
a hero's battlefield death in store for him (but hopefully not before he
deals with the Ice Witch), but I don't think he'll be around if and when
the Star League is refounded.
Jonathan R Bezeau
Gabriel YEDID (ga...@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: : >On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
: restoring order and peace, and Focht appears publicly saying "Guess what
: everyone! I'm ba-ack!" And the lyrans are all too happy to accept him as
: their leader.
And then he marries Victor?
Jonboy
Gabe YEDID
On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, John D. Ford wrote:
> ONCE, jbe...@uoguelph.ca (Jonathan R Bezeau) SIMPLY SAID:
>
> >And then he marries Victor?
>
It's bad enough the Clans condone incest. Having Victor in a
"relationship" with his...um...great uncle, is it? would be pushing
things more than a bit. If nothing else, there might be bit of
Plantagenet blood in the Davion line (heh heh heh)
> Nah, he wouldn't want to rule the LyrCom anyway, he hates politics
> since it lost 'im his eye and his identity, lemme think... This guy
> was involved in some devious plot with a Lestrade, he ruined his whole
> life and lost everything that way or something, then got captured by
> the DC and bargained away to ComStar like a slave in trade for
> communications support and old Star League 'Mechs? On top of all this,
So *he* was the price the DC paid for those stripped-down Star League
mechs they used in '39? OK, I could never figure out why Comstar would
just give those Mechs away. What did Focht have that Comstar wanted?
> his Primus betrayed him and the warriors of Tukkayid and tried to
> erect a sick, fanatical tribute to ComStar's glory by taking the whole
> IS with blood and flame, placing him as leader (dictator) of Tharkad.
Did Manic Myndo know he was who he was? Or did she happen to mention it,
and didn't know what a nerve she was hitting?
(Boy, the IS sure ain't kind to women in power. Either they end up
murdered, like Melissa, or they're power-obsessed maniacs like Waterly
and Katherine S-D.)
>
> J.D. Ford
> can you say "AR-muh-GED-dun?"
John D. Ford
ONCE, jbe...@uoguelph.ca (Jonathan R Bezeau) SIMPLY SAID:
>: : >On 19 Jun 1996, IG Cdr wrote:
>: restoring order and peace, and Focht appears publicly saying "Guess what
>: everyone! I'm ba-ack!" And the lyrans are all too happy to accept him as
>: their leader.
Woo hoo! Go Anastasius!
>And then he marries Victor?
Nah, he wouldn't want to rule the LyrCom anyway, he hates politics
since it lost 'im his eye and his identity, lemme think... This guy
was involved in some devious plot with a Lestrade, he ruined his whole
life and lost everything that way or something, then got captured by
the DC and bargained away to ComStar like a slave in trade for
communications support and old Star League 'Mechs? On top of all this,
his Primus betrayed him and the warriors of Tukkayid and tried to
erect a sick, fanatical tribute to ComStar's glory by taking the whole
IS with blood and flame, placing him as leader (dictator) of Tharkad.
Sheesh. I'd be sick of politics too. Let Focht joint-command the
Armies with Morgan. Then they can link up with Hohiro's DC and the Com
Guards and _really_ show the Clans how to fight... ;)
John D. Ford
ONCE, chad...@intergate.bc.ca (Chad Barnett) SIMPLY SAID:
>Not Crichell, Vlad killed him moments after he was made Il-Khan. I
>think Vlad Ward has a thing for her though.
Sigh. Who wants to bet that Vlad will have to face Phelan yet again in
some terrible conflict, and Phelan will win and let him live? The
blinkin' event kept happining over and over through three books.
(Grumble)
J.D. Ford
Darrin Lee Bright
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960623...@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca>,
Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>It's bad enough the Clans condone incest. Having Victor in a
>"relationship" with his...um...great uncle, is it? would be pushing
>things more than a bit. If nothing else, there might be bit of
>Plantagenet blood in the Davion line (heh heh heh)
Inbreeding is actually an extremely effective way of "purifying" a
genetic code. Sure, initially, there's a lot of problems with it, but
once you weed out the bad genes, you get a very clean homogenous genetic
code. This is one of the reasons the native Americans had such a tough
time dealing with European diseases... they had long ago bred out the
majority of their own nasty diseases, were amazingly healthy... but their
cleaner codes couldn't handle the completely foriegn European diseases.
If you want to preserve a particular genetic code, then you HAVE to
inbreed it. This is how they make hybrid flowers and other plants. The
Clans obviously place a lot of value on their genetic material and will
go to extremes to see it preserved. Other than that, it is rather rude
to judge other people by your own moral standards.
--
"Uh...yeah, I uh... suck blood all the time..." - The Tick
--
* * * Darrin Bright - Duck Ezra - Muse of Tedium * * *
= = ============================================ = =
John D. Ford
ONCE, Gabe YEDID <ga...@cs.mcgill.ca> SIMPLY SAID:
>So *he* was the price the DC paid for those stripped-down Star League
>mechs they used in '39? OK, I could never figure out why Comstar would
>just give those Mechs away. What did Focht have that Comstar wanted?
Well, only one of the best military minds of the age. He headed up the
Com Guards as Precentor Martial from the beginning, he got practically
_all_ ComStar's useful information on the Clans, and he pre-planned
Tukayyid down to the last minutiae such as when the Clans would be
more likely to be surprised by a certain unit hiding behind a certain
ridge on a path to a specific city, then bargained for Tukayyid with
Ulric, gambled and won big. In retrospect, it was a good trade, even
better than whatever Primus Myndo first saw in Focht.
>Did Manic Myndo know he was who he was? Or did she happen to mention it,
>and didn't know what a nerve she was hitting?
The Primus held her knowledge of his past over his head, sort of to
press him down and remind him who saved him. She didn't truly
understand Focht's "warrior" side, and never did. Her outlandish
policital maneuvers and brash arrogance (think Nero) cost her her
life. (shrug) If you have a decent bookstore in the area, you can pick
up Michael Stackpole's "Blood of Kerensky" trilogy: it has all the
stuff ya need to know and is more detailed than the sourcebooks.
Entertaining too!
>(Boy, the IS sure ain't kind to women in power. Either they end up
>murdered, like Melissa, or they're power-obsessed maniacs like Waterly
>and Katherine S-D.)
FASA isn't very kind to the Liao leaders either. Call me crazy (heh)
but I think a lot of people under-rate poor Sun Tzu. I think I'll
write a tale about him just for the heck of it.
J.D. Ford
true...@pipeline.com
In article <DtHDF...@iglou.com>, John D. Ford writes:
>Sigh. Who wants to bet that Vlad will have to face Phelan yet again in
>some terrible conflict, and Phelan will win and let him live?
The Kell Hounds have become a slight but worsening thorn in a ceratin
lady's(term loosly applied) side and are operating in tandem with the
nemisis of her Clan Kahn lover. Eventually, Lyran forces may just show up
coincedentally at the same time as a Wolf Clan force. In the resultant
confusion, the Hounds and Kell-Wolves may find themselves squeezed as the
Lyrans hit the Kell-wolf "Clan" force and the Wolf forces (who are NOT
cooperating with the Lyrans) hit ther Kell Hound units. All in all "Clan"
forces are fighting Inner Sphere forces and the only units openly
cooperating are Phelan's folks and the Hounds. This could be the focal
point that allows Victor to slip his unit into Tharkad and thwap his sister
in the face
Of course, Katherine will be there to claim having liberated her people
from the clan invaders who had infiltrated the Hounds and were bringing in
re-enforcements (Unfortunatly, no Hounds survived to celebrate the
liberation). The twist is that, having to dispatch forces to Tharkad, and
due to revenge based strategy, as well as not having the home field
advantage may give the defenders the upper hand and may force Katherine to
withdraw alaong witht eh remnants of the clan force. This could expose
Katherine's negociations with Vlad and allow Victor to move on the Lyran
Alliance as a whole using this to back up the evidence he has against
Katherine in their mother's murder.
The result might be that Fed Com now must consolidate and secure the Lyran
end, Re-garrison the boarders, calm Hohiro and Theodore, Guard against the
adventurisem of Thomas and Sun Tzu, and begin the negociations with new
Chaos march Soveren States and plan the re-conquest of those worlds who's
fates are much less defined.
As a result, It would take the largest powers inthe Inner Sphere(Lyran and
FedCom) out of the preparations for the clan war for a bit and put the
re-formed FedCom strictly on the defensive until Victor can put his house
in order. BTW: this would also mandate a marrage and heir.
Commander Truestar, Starlight Strike Team
First Blue Blaze Irregular Battlemech Division
Team Banzai, Everywhere
Jonathan R Bezeau
Distribution:
Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, John D. Ford wrote:
: So *he* was the price the DC paid for those stripped-down Star League
: mechs they used in '39? OK, I could never figure out why Comstar would
: just give those Mechs away. What did Focht have that Comstar wanted?
He was Focht. Look at the guy. He rules. He's about twice as cool as Sean
Connery (compared to his equals in 3050) and has his head in the right
place for thinkin about mechs kicking ass.
: Did Manic Myndo know he was who he was? Or did she happen to mention it,
: and didn't know what a nerve she was hitting?
: (Boy, the IS sure ain't kind to women in power. Either they end up
: murdered, like Melissa, or they're power-obsessed maniacs like Waterly
: and Katherine S-D.)
Well, they're not all that nice tot he guys either. One's yakuza scum.
Another is a frigging clone trying to pawn off his daughter to a loser.
Another is a loser.
And the good one is a runty little guy that everyone hates. And we
haven't even gotten into the Khans yet.
Jonboy
Gabe YEDID
On 25 Jun 1996, Jonathan R Bezeau wrote:
> Distribution:
>
> Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
> : On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, John D. Ford wrote:
>
> He was Focht. Look at the guy. He rules. He's about twice as cool as Sean
> Connery (compared to his equals in 3050) and has his head in the right
> place for thinkin about mechs kicking ass.
Boy, I gotta read that Blood of Kerensky trilogy.
> : Did Manic Myndo know he was who he was? Or did she happen to mention it,
> : and didn't know what a nerve she was hitting?
>
> : (Boy, the IS sure ain't kind to women in power. Either they end up
> : murdered, like Melissa, or they're power-obsessed maniacs like Waterly
> : and Katherine S-D.)
>
> Well, they're not all that nice tot he guys either. One's yakuza scum.
> Another is a frigging clone trying to pawn off his daughter to a loser.
> Another is a loser.
> And the good one is a runty little guy that everyone hates. And we
> haven't even gotten into the Khans yet.
>
> Jonboy
One's in love with the scumbucket sister of the nice runt. (Great start)
Several are dead: one dead spider (squishy squishy burn burn)
one dead wolf (at least this one was
dishonorably ambushed)
2 dead green birds of a feather.
well...I can't say anything bad about Phelan.
and the rest...I know nothing about. Isn't the Ghost Bear senior khan a
woman?
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Xizor (red...@singnet.com.sg) wrote:
: Actually, Candace Liao was the designated heir to the throne of the CC
: because Tormano Liao, the son of Maximillian Liao, is useless.
:
: When Candace left, Romano seized the reins of rulership from her then
: mad and demented father. If I am not wrong, she have her father shot
: too.
:
: In short, Kai Allard-Liao, being the eldest grandson, and the son of
: the heir designate, will be the rightful ruler of the CC.
Hmm , you are being very quiet about the fact that Candance Liao
defected with known spy during wartime and helped to establish a
puppet-state from former parts of her homeland...I dont know
about you , but I would call such thing a treason and one doing
it a traitor (or maybe a quisling) ... and the fact that she was
heir makes her crimes even more heinous. I am sure that Capellan
people would welcome her and her whelps with open arms...there
are way too few nice & messy public executions these days.
But then again , with all the continuity errors & changing
plots novels are having these days (Like Pride of Tamar turning
into davionist unit) anything can happen.
--
jaripekka
jpju...@paju.oulu.fi
No catchy one-liners here , try to have an original thought instead.
Janne Kemppi
: To me , its a sad state of the morality where one cannot anymore
: trust a mans word to be his bond. Where have words like honor and
: loyalty dissappeared from world of Battletech ? What kind of heroes
: change sides when going gets tough ? Those willing to survive , I am
: sure someone will say , but what heroic is there in selling ones
: country ? And would you take a man who is likely going to change sides
: if he's about to loose as your champion ? I know I wouldn't , but maybe
: the likes of me have no place in modern world , where even loyalty is
: disposable.
The world is changing fast.
One feels being displaced.
We are too nostalgic.
But if nostalgia is our fault,
I'd say it is one of our saving virtues.
For a hero will be remembered.
Janne Kemppi
Gabe YEDID
> : But then again , with all the continuity errors & changing
> : plots novels are having these days (Like Pride of Tamar turning
> : into davionist unit) anything can happen.
> :
> Since we are in that old era that many of the younger generation
> of MechWarriors probably know only of hushed rumours it might be
> good to remember some other notable traitors of that era.
>
>
> Frederick Steiner. He plotted death and destruction to Katrina Steiner.
> After being caught after botched treachery he was given a chance to
> redeem himself and regain his honour by making a heroical suicide
> attack against enemy in battlefield. He was to pay his foul crimes
> with ultimate sacrifice but he failed even in that.
>
>
> Janne Kemppi
>
And look where it got him--he became the saviour of the Inner Sphere
against the Clans, as Focht. Remember that saying about not calling
treason treason, if it prospers?
Gabe YEDID
Let me guess. You two guys roleplay clanners, right?
(Attributing Akira Brahe's treason to his "Rasalhagian genes" would be a
pretty good tip-off...that's another thing that gets my goat about the
Clans is that they believe in genetic determinism.)
And Focht did what he had to do to straighten ComStar out. If Waterly
had gotten away with what she wanted, she'd be dropping the title of
Primus and setting herself up as Blake's Ayatollah (or something). He may
be a solider to the core at heart, but at least he understands the down side of
fundamentalism.
Gabe YEDID
> On 25 Jun 1996, Janne Kemppi wrote:
>
> >
> > Frederick Steiner. He plotted death and destruction to Katrina Steiner.
> > After being caught after botched treachery he was given a chance to
> > redeem himself and regain his honour by making a heroical suicide
> > attack against enemy in battlefield. He was to pay his foul crimes
> > with ultimate sacrifice but he failed even in that.
> >
> >
> > Janne Kemppi
> >
> And look where it got him--he became the saviour of the Inner Sphere
> against the Clans, as Focht. Remember that saying about not calling
> treason treason, if it prospers?
>
And I forgot to add: you guys rail against Phelan, Focht and Akira Brahe,
but you want to see Katherine S-D deified. That's real consistent. You MUST
be Clanners.
Prabal Nandy
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi <jpju...@raita.oulu.fi> wrote:
>Phelan <Insert My Current Surname Here>.
>made him a mercenary. During his 1st campaing not only does he loose
>his mech and be captured , he also shows applaudable quickness in
>turning his coat and joining the Clans. In Clan Wolf he rises
Which only tells you something about the Clan's Job-screening and
applications process:
1. Are you a freebirth? (Aff/Neg)
2. Are you a Bigot? (Aff/Neg)
3. Do you suffer from Sibko Rivalry? (Aff/Neg)
4. Is "Spam in a can":
a: Food
b: An elemental-to-be?
5. TRICK QUESTION: Do you have a bellybutton?
6. Why?
7. Do you exit your mech:
a: With a rope-ladder, or
b: deployable ass-escalator?
You get the idea!
>'Through Bed to Glory' and ends up as khan. When the things get
Whistle! Whattaguy!
>To me , its a sad state of the morality where one cannot anymore
>trust a mans word to be his bond. Where have words like honor and
>loyalty dissappeared from world of Battletech ? What kind of heroes
Hell, people used to complain about that crap back when I was in Greece,
and big Mantises were allowed to wear Togas! (I HATED those days!)
>change sides when going gets tough ? Those willing to survive , I am
>sure someone will say , but what heroic is there in selling ones
>country ? And would you take a man who is likely going to change sides
Yadda yadda! Face it, you soldier for money, what care ye of loyalty?
--
\~~~~~\__ ~~\___/~~ __/~~~~~/ /pr...@sunset.bph.jhu.edu\ Lord of the Flies
~<==\__\_<O\:/O>_/__/==>~ /http://sunset.bph.jhu.edu \ 1st MPC Division
<_/ //=\ ^ /=\\ \_> \na...@vms.ccit.arizona.edu/ Colony World Myops
\| (|) |/ \ na...@ccit.arizona.edu / Velox-Durus-Infestus
Flounder
> Frederick Steiner. He plotted death and destruction to Katrina Steiner.
> After being caught after botched treachery he was given a chance to
> redeem himself and regain his honour by making a heroical suicide
> attack against enemy in battlefield. He was to pay his foul crimes
> with ultimate sacrifice but he failed even in that.
>
>
> Janne Kemppi
Right, it'a all Freddy's fault that Teddy Kurita didn't shoot him.
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
: > After being caught after botched treachery he was given a chance to
: > redeem himself and regain his honour by making a heroical suicide
: > attack against enemy in battlefield. He was to pay his foul crimes
: > with ultimate sacrifice but he failed even in that.
: And look where it got him--he became the saviour of the Inner Sphere
: treason treason, if it prospers?
Nope , I still call it a treason. And about Steners miraculous
turning into savior of all mandkind etc etc , that just makes me
sick. Turning medicore military leader & beginner-level political
plotter overnight into strategic genius is bit much for me. If
he was that kind of leader , why didnt he turn Lyran army into
as well oiled machine as Com Guard currently is ?
Janne Kemppi
: Let me guess. You two guys roleplay clanners, right?
: (Attributing Akira Brahe's treason to his "Rasalhagian genes" would be a
: pretty good tip-off...that's another thing that gets my goat about the
: Clans is that they believe in genetic determinism.)
:
: And Focht did what he had to do to straighten ComStar out. If Waterly
: had gotten away with what she wanted, she'd be dropping the title of
: Primus and setting herself up as Blake's Ayatollah (or something). He may
: be a solider to the core at heart, but at least he understands the down side of
: fundamentalism.
I have been designing and writing my own campaign information for quite
some time and I have to say that this affiliation is not Clans.
Focht had no concept of loyalty. He was a soldier. If the job
description did not fancy, he could have either commit suicide or
gave his resignation. Turning against your former comrades was
something that no one with any idea of loyalty would have committed.
Janne Kemppi
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
: Let me guess. You two guys roleplay clanners, right?
Wrong. I have tried clanners in muse , but in real RPG ? That
day will never happen.
: (Attributing Akira Brahe's treason to his "Rasalhagian genes" would be a
: pretty good tip-off...that's another thing that gets my goat about the
: Clans is that they believe in genetic determinism.)
I could give a long list of thing why clan genetics dont work , but
thats just one of the lesser sources of irration in 3050-> campaingn.
In our campaing we have freezed the time to 3026 and everything that
happens in the books is just a bad nightmare Hanse Davion is having
after eating too much chili before going to sleep. And about the
"Rasalhagian genes" , I now realise that it was comment that could only
understood by small number of people. The meaning of it was just to
find some rational explanation to member of Kurita bloodline defecting
from Combine.
: And Focht did what he had to do to straighten ComStar out. If Waterly
: had gotten away with what she wanted, she'd be dropping the title of
: Primus and setting herself up as Blake's Ayatollah (or something). He may
: be a solider to the core at heart, but at least he understands the down side of
: fundamentalism.
Doing what has to be done is a common excuse for military juntas
everywhere , but that doesn't mean that makes military coup any
more acceptable. F.Steiner is still the same opportunist as he was
when aiming to become the Archon. And since Comstar could be considered
as equal of a Successor State he got what he wanted. And About that
Ajatollah stuff lets all remeber that Saddam was good and decent chap
as long as he just killed iranians. But then again , we were the good
guys and he was on our side ?
Janne Kemppi
:
: > Frederick Steiner. He plotted death and destruction to Katrina Steiner.
: > After being caught after botched treachery he was given a chance to
: > redeem himself and regain his honour by making a heroical suicide
: > attack against enemy in battlefield. He was to pay his foul crimes
: > with ultimate sacrifice but he failed even in that.
: >
: >
:
:
: Right, it'a all Freddy's fault that Teddy Kurita didn't shoot him.
Yes. Frederick Steiner should have committed suicide instead. After his
treachery he could have either seek death or do a suicide. There was
simply no turning back and going to enemy side (Comstar and Kurita were
clearly against Lyra) should have been impossible to his honour. To
Frederick Steiner, the loyalty and honour did not exist.
Janne Kemppi
KILLIEN
soldier. If the job
description did not fancy, he could have either commit suicide or
gave his resignation. Turning against your former comrades was
something that no one with any idea of loyalty would have committed.>>
save as many men from the 10th Lyran Guard as possible. The only reason he
surrenerd to Teddy was he made a deal with teddy to let all of his men go
in exchange for his surrender.
A. Sivula
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
: And I forgot to add: you guys rail against Phelan, Focht and Akira Brahe,
: be Clanners.
One thing we seem to agree on : Kat is traitor. We had not
yet got that far in the listing of traitors. But there is one major
difference in Kat compared to the people you mentioned. She is
clearly potrayed as Femme Fatale of IS politics , and as a major
villain(ess). Different rules apply. My fondness of Kat is due her
different goals and motives compared to the heroes , most of whom
I find rather sad lot , but after reading the latest of Stackpole's
gifts to world of literature I was saddened greatly by the misuse
of her potential and the idiotic actions she was taking (but then
again, others seemed to be as stupid as well).
If I haven't made it clear enough in my previous posts,
my main grievance (and please do not turn that word into another
proof of me playing a Clanner , plz) with those three you mentioned,
is the fact that rising them to heroes is like making betraying your
country , friends and family as well as turning to fight the people
you had trained , fighted and lived with into O.K things to do. If
someone could explain to me logically , how can a man whose morality
allows him to those thing still de a "decent chap" and a hero I might
consider changing my opinion.
And , again , NO I am not Clanner since there are no Clanners
in 1996 (at least not in Finland) , and I do not even play a Clanner.
If I were one , I would have no moral problems about turning my coat
and fighting against people I grew up with , since thats quite routine
for clanners.
--
Camille Klein
# The Only reason that Freddie did not go out in a "Blaze of Glory" was to
# save as many men from the 10th Lyran Guard as possible. The only reason he
# surrenerd to Teddy was he made a deal with teddy to let all of his men go
# in exchange for his surrender.
I guess that this would be a good time to point out that Jane and J-P are
only posting what they are posting because they like getting a rise out
of all the folks who think Phelan is God on a Stick and who want to see
Katherine Steiner-Davion garotted at high noon in the town square. ;)
--Camille.
--
I said it. You read it. I'm not taking it back.--Drew Lanz.
"My apologies, Mr. Speaker, but the honourable Member doesn't have the
brains of a demented canary."
Ministry of BattleTech Mailing list: mail majo...@polarnet.com with the
words 'subscribe tmobml' in the body.
Slayer
wrote:
>Steiner to avenge his mother... and I presume that the Gray Death who
>had so much shit from the Skye Separatists wouldn't hestitate to
>avenge some of their dead and place the blame of Katherine Steiner as
>well. :)
Actually, in the last GDL book (whatever the name of it was), they
said they were loyal, ifnot fanatic, to the Lyran part of FedCom.
Could change, but they seemed to like Steiner much more then Davion...
Vladimir Gabrielescu
>is the fact that rising them to heroes is like making betraying your
>country , friends and family as well as turning to fight the people
>you had trained , fighted and lived with into O.K things to do. If
>someone could explain to me logically , how can a man whose morality
>allows him to those thing still de a "decent chap" and a hero I might
>consider changing my opinion.
Well is quite simple.
There are times when you have to break away from cultures of
governments which are immoral, distructive, or insane. Are you
going to blame the people who left the communits block countries?
Or South Africa during Aperheid (sp?)? Were they traitors or
were they justified in leaving for a) a better future or b)
the hope to help their country? The point is that you may be
a "decent chap" but if your country is not and is betraying you
and it's people, don't you have a duty to do something about it,
even if it means leaving and looking for help?
Vladimir
--
Vladimir Gabrielescu NBCS Student System Programmer 1-908-445-5545
vgab...@toolbox.rutgers.edu http://nbcs.rutgers.edu/~vgabriel/
"Standards are so critical to the computer industry that they invent new
ones every six weeks." Bob Church in a.s.r
Jon Ivars ENGE
>
> >
> > : (Boy, the IS sure ain't kind to women in power. Either they end up
> > : murdered, like Melissa, or they're power-obsessed maniacs like Waterly
> > : and Katherine S-D.)
> >
> Only in the current situation. If you take a look at the House
> Sourcebooks, some of the most loved rulers have been women. For instance,
> Siriwan Kurita, Aleisha Liao, Katrina Steiner. Plus, what about the Primus
> and Candace Liao-Allard?
>
And my favorites, any Canopian Magestrix (They are ALL women).
I also liked the Duchess of Andurien, Dame ...er, was it Humphrey?
If The Captain-General hadn't been so stingy about her realm leaving
the Free Worlds League the joint Andurien/Canopian invasion would have
finished off what remained off the Capellans.
They got lucky that time but just wait, the periphery wide alliance will
finish off them irritating Liaos sooner or later.
Guess I'll have Camille breathing down my neck in no time....
An my pet Ghost Bear breathing down hers, Muahahahahahah
Star Captain Jon 'Gauss Bear' Ivars
Reach me on the chatterweb at: jiv...@abo.fi
,--, ,--.
.'´ \ /_|\ `.
/-=a,__ \_.--^--._/> \ \
\<´ `\\ /7 \ /
\Y\ \\ // //
,'\ \_ \\ / \ //.
/ \ \ \\ / / // \
/ \ \___ \Y /__ // \
___[_______\ /´ `---' \//_____.]_,__
( ________($ <#*=v=*#> $) ___|\/| ;)
( / \ /===\ /___/ '/ )
( / ___/ |@@@| \ / )
( /. _____/ / IV=VI \________/ )
(__|/|_______L_ {` '} _J____________)
`\` // \_ \ / _/´ \ |
\ // \_GwJ_/´ \ \ ,'
\ // / ;V:\ \_ \ /
`.// | / \\ \ \'
/ | / / \\ \/\
/ | _\/_ _\\_ 7\
\ \ |-z/` '-v-' \ `--.=-/
`. \I /` \ .'
`--' `--'
'You might very well think that, but I couldn't
possibly comment.' Ian Richardson as the
diabolical prime minister in "House of Cards"
Jon Ivars ENGE
> Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
> : Let me guess. You two guys roleplay clanners, right?
> : (Attributing Akira Brahe's treason to his "Rasalhagian genes" would be a
> : pretty good tip-off...that's another thing that gets my goat about the
> : Clans is that they believe in genetic determinism.)
> :
> : And Focht did what he had to do to straighten ComStar out. If Waterly
> : had gotten away with what she wanted, she'd be dropping the title of
> : Primus and setting herself up as Blake's Ayatollah (or something). He may
> : be a solider to the core at heart, but at least he understands the down side of
> : fundamentalism.
> :
>
> I have been designing and writing my own campaign information for quite
> some time and I have to say that this affiliation is not Clans.
>
> Focht had no concept of loyalty. He was a soldier. If the job
> description did not fancy, he could have either commit suicide or
> gave his resignation. Turning against your former comrades was
> something that no one with any idea of loyalty would have committed.
>
> Janne Kemppi
>
>
We Ghost Bears view Focht as an honorable warrior betrayed by Waterly, not
the other way around. It is because of him we respect and honor the truce.
Not because of the insane things Waterly did before she died.
Chang Calvin Chi-Wen
> no more. Each Clan has taken horrific (for them) losses that haven't
> been felt since the Pentagon Wars. Even Vlad admitted he will have to
> do some massive recruiting among the lower castes to refill his TO&E.
> Don't forget that the forces leading the Invasion were not only the
> Clans who won their trials, but the units and warriors within each
> Clan to win their trials. In other words, the best of the best of the
> Clans stormed into this holy war. Now, after horrific losses, the
> Clans will try to rebuild. How many of the elite warriors are left?
> Judging from the material in the sourcebooks, not many. Their
> replacements will be less skillled, less experienced and far less
> seasoned. For the 20% of the sibkos who survive to pass a Trial of
> Position, how many will survive the first year on the Border? If
> history is any judge, I'd say about 40%.
Dont worry, there are still many clans left, and they wwill kick Is's butt!!
>
Janne Kemppi
KILLIEN (kil...@aol.com) wrote:
: Janne Kemppi did write <<Focht had no concept of loyalty. He was a
: soldier. If the job
: description did not fancy, he could have either commit suicide or
: gave his resignation. Turning against your former comrades was
: something that no one with any idea of loyalty would have committed.>>
: save as many men from the 10th Lyran Guard as possible. The only reason he
: surrenerd to Teddy was he made a deal with teddy to let all of his men go
: in exchange for his surrender.
:
Very true *BUT* he switched sides and turned against Lyra. That makes
it a treason. He is a scheming traitor, plain and simple. If he had
any loyalty, he would not have turned against his former brothers in arms.
Survival, yes. Loyalty, no. Heroism, even less.
Janne Kemppi
Janne Kemppi
Jon Ivars ENGE (jiv...@aton.abo.fi) wrote:
: On 28 Jun 1996, Janne Kemppi wrote:
: > I have been designing and writing my own campaign information for quite
: > some time and I have to say that this affiliation is not Clans.
: > Focht had no concept of loyalty. He was a soldier. If the job
: > description did not fancy, he could have either commit suicide or
: > gave his resignation. Turning against your former comrades was
: > something that no one with any idea of loyalty would have committed.
: >
: >
: >
: We Ghost Bears view Focht as an honorable warrior betrayed by Waterly, not
: the other way around. It is because of him we respect and honor the truce.
: Not because of the insane things Waterly did before she died.
Politics rule warfare, because wars follow political decisions and goals
set by government, not the other way around. If one does not like it,
one can always resign. As for Frederick Steiner, his joining to Comstar
made him to confront directly Lyra and he finally betrayed even his new
master as well.
Janne Kemppi
Vladimir Gabrielescu
>Very true *BUT* he switched sides and turned against Lyra. That makes
>it a treason. He is a scheming traitor, plain and simple. If he had
>any loyalty, he would not have turned against his former brothers in arms.
>Survival, yes. Loyalty, no. Heroism, even less.
I've asked you this before and you failed to answer. Is it treason if
you defect from a corupt government? I say not. Is it heroism? Well,
most people don't have the guts to run from a corupt government. I agree
that this fits Candance Liao more the Focht, but let me ask you one more
thing, if he wouldn't have left when he did, who would have fought and
defeted the Clans? The LAAF? You are surely joking. Only his resolve and
the military strenght of Comstar saved the sorry ass of the Lyran state,
and possible the rest of the IS. And what was the response of the government
he left? The head of it went and became a whore in an unwashed clanner's bed.
You tell me, who is the traitor?
> Janne Kemppi
Jonathan R Bezeau
Distribution:
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi (jpju...@indy3.oulu.fi) wrote:
: Gabe YEDID (ga...@cs.mcgill.ca) wrote:
: If I haven't made it clear enough in my previous posts,
: my main grievance (and please do not turn that word into another
: proof of me playing a Clanner , plz) with those three you mentioned,
: is the fact that rising them to heroes is like making betraying your
: country , friends and family as well as turning to fight the people
: you had trained , fighted and lived with into O.K things to do. If
: someone could explain to me logically , how can a man whose morality
: allows him to those thing still de a "decent chap" and a hero I might
: consider changing my opinion.
Well, there's a theory that winners write the history books (this is
especially prevalane in the clans, where each one has a different history
book... even the losers write the history books. I'm sure that doesn't
help clan-clan relatins in the slightest)
: And , again , NO I am not Clanner since there are no Clanners
: in 1996 (at least not in Finland) , and I do not even play a Clanner.
: If I were one , I would have no moral problems about turning my coat
: and fighting against people I grew up with , since thats quite routine
: for clanners.
It seems normal for everyone in BT, especially those close to the top
ranks. They are in a good position to get all they want with a
well-placed knife and then rely on their wit and political savvy to pull
it off.
May we take Stefan Amaris as example 1?
And then all the house lords, who are still backstabbing over the SL throne.
Then Kerensky turned his back on his job and went to found a little cult
of his own in some far reach of space. He promised re-conquest to keep
morale up.
Then CoMstar gets in the act with that s#%$ Waterly's Operation Scorpion,
which should have been an infinitely more costly and disasterous
failure... which honestly should have returned clan hostilities and
resulted in a massive ground war on Terra.
By comparison, Michael Hasek-Davion, Frederick Stiener, the Liao family,
Fred Kruita and all those traitors are playing truly petty games. I'm
almost positive that obedience and honor are _not_ the norm in 30xx.
Jonboy
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@lochaber.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: I wrote following :
: >is the fact that rising them to heroes is like making betraying your
: >country , friends and family as well as turning to fight the people
: >you had trained , fighted and lived with into O.K things to do. If
: >someone could explain to me logically , how can a man whose morality
: >allows him to those thing still de a "decent chap" and a hero I might
: >consider changing my opinion.
: Well is quite simple.
So lets see you try.
:
: There are times when you have to break away from cultures of
: governments which are immoral, distructive, or insane. Are you
: going to blame the people who left the communits block countries?
: Or South Africa during Aperheid (sp?)? Were they traitors or
: were they justified in leaving for a) a better future or b)
: the hope to help their country? The point is that you may be
: a "decent chap" but if your country is not and is betraying you
: and it's people, don't you have a duty to do something about it,
: even if it means leaving and looking for help?
To answer your questions with a question: How many of those
you mentined left their homeland to join the armed forces of the
enemy ? If your read carefully what I said , you notice thats what
I am campaigning against. I have nothing against people who try to
escape with their lives from system that would like to see them killed,
but a man who exchanges possibly damaging information about his country
to life in luxury is more of opportunist than "misguided patriot".
Sometimes systems can be rotten , and it becames a neccesity
to change them. The iniative & the power for change must come from the
inside , not from outside forces. But there are other methods of
change than killing the current leader and stepping in the power or
running to the enemies of your homecountry and begging for military
support. The ones suffering when military might enters the politics
are mostly common people , and while goverments come and go , people
and bitterness will stay longer than current goverment.
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Jon Ivars ENGE (jiv...@aton.abo.fi) wrote:
: We Ghost Bears view Focht as an honorable warrior betrayed by Waterly,
: not the other way around.
Which speaks volumes about the honor of the clans by itself. But we knew
that already , didn't we , since Clans are a society of bullies (what
else you call their might-makes-right approach) .
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Camille Klein (cap...@primenet.com) wrote:
:
: I guess that this would be a good time to point out that Jane and J-P are
: of all the folks who think Phelan is God on a Stick and who want to see
: Katherine Steiner-Davion garotted at high noon in the town square. ;)
Hmm , I mildly disagree with you about my motives (I don't pretend to
know Janne's). If you want to turn them to humor , lets rather say that
I like to be the kid who shouts 'Emperor doesnt have any clothes on!'.
Hopefully followers of the Holy Focht & St. Phelan have given thought
to what their heroes are and be less fanatical next time when someone
says that either of them might actually do something wrong or have
agenda of their own (other than 'Good Of Mankind').
And now to totally different matter...a new topic of discussion to
those of us who are yet to killfile me :) :
Mercenaries. What logical use do you think they have ?
The reason I think they exist at all in BTech is mainly due the
RPG nature of the game , since playing a merc gives players & GM's
alike more flexibility in the game and allows same PC's to be used
in variety of campaigns. (The same reason I think merc's are potrayed
as Bold & Beutiful as they are in novels - the readers are mainly
players and they need to feel good about their characters.)
But what's your 'pseudo-scientific' explanation why the
goverments of Btech universe would pay large sums of money to
primadonnas whose reliability under fire is quite questionable ?
Solarmech
Fed. Stiener may have played petty games earlier, but he learned from his
errors and freely admites his mistakes. As for his killing Waterly, well
Focht is loyal to the Inner Sphear(sp) not to any petty faction. sm
(besides Waterly betrayed Focht and the entire IS)
Tim Pierce
In <4r7ri5$6...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> jpju...@indy3.oulu.fi (Jari-Pekka M.
Juopperi) writes:
>
>Jon Ivars ENGE (jiv...@aton.abo.fi) wrote:
>: We Ghost Bears view Focht as an honorable warrior betrayed by
Waterly,
>: not the other way around.
>
>Which speaks volumes about the honor of the clans by itself. But we
knew
>that already , didn't we , since Clans are a society of bullies (what
>else you call their might-makes-right approach) .
>
How can you trust a bunch of genetically grown pod people.
Freeebirth- The only way to go.
Marcus Fong
In article <4r7vlk$6...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, jpju...@indy3.oulu.fi
(Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi) wrote:
> But what's your 'pseudo-scientific' explanation why the
>goverments of Btech universe would pay large sums of money to
>primadonnas whose reliability under fire is quite questionable ?
IMHO they would pay them for risky jobs they didn't feel like risking
their own units on (what's a few million C-bills as opposed to replacing
your *own* 'Mechs?), or just to cover gaps in their own forces.
--------------------------------------------------------
Marcus Fong
1st year Engineering / Information Technology student
Australian National University
"'Pleading Child' was slower but shorter; 'Perfectly
Contented' was longer, but faster. And after I played
them both a few times, I realized that they were two
halves of the same song."
- Jing-Mei Woo, "The Joy Luck Club"
--------------------------------------------------------
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Janne wrote lots of things which led Vladimir Gabrielescu's answer :
:
: Is it treason if you defect from a corupt government? I say not.
FedCom corrupted and evil ? At least something we can agree on.
: Is it heroism? Well, most people don't have the guts to run from a
: corupt government.
So you consider it gutsier to leave than to stay and try to fix the
problem ? I could call it easy way out , but since in some cases people
who stayed ended up martyrs , I wont. But I wont call it as the best way
either.
: I agree that this fits Candance Liao more the Focht
To Candance Liao it was the easy way out...she could have stayed few more
years and became Chancellor. Then she could have turned the system to
whatever she wanted to.
: but let me ask you one more
: thing, if he wouldn't have left when he did, who would have fought and
: defeted the Clans? The LAAF? You are surely joking. Only his resolve and
: the military strenght of Comstar saved the sorry ass of the Lyran state,
: and possible the rest of the IS. And what was the response of the government
: he left? The head of it went and became a whore in an unwashed clanner's bed.
: You tell me, who is the traitor?
I had to re-read this paragraph few times to convince myself what you
were writing. 1stly I must express my sadness in part that you have
chosen to 'Scream and Leap' and turn this otherwise informative post
to 'your side is dirtier than my side'-kind of argument.
Secondly , I find this reveleation of Fredrik Steiners precognitive
abilities as quite fresh and original theory. Not that I fully agree
with it , but it is so original that I didn't see it coming...so my
own vision of future was lacking.
If we discard the theory of Divine Vision Of Future , we must remember
few things about pre-Clan Comstar to realise the political map of time
when Frederick Steiner sold his country and became AF.
(1) ComStar opposed the creation of Federated Commonwealth.
It considered FC as the greatest threat to their vision of
mankinds future.
(2) ComStar actively supported Draconis Combine with both intelligence
information and Star League-era mechs. In exchange of that DC allowed
ComStar to station ComGuard to protect their HPG stations inside DC.
And in year 3034 , Theodore Kurita delivered Frederick Steiner
giftwrapped to be a leader of ComGuard , the job he took 3035.
Quite clearly , the threat AF was preparing his troops for came from
FedCom , not from Clans (which were unknown to even Comstar at that time).
I find it quite disturbing that you do not consider man who willingly
joins the ally of the most ancient of enemies (***), and became leader
of their armed forces , a traitor.
ComGuards effort in Tukayyid undoubtably bought few years of peace
to Inner Sphere , but let us not be blinded why they fought like they
did , and what was truly instake : Terra.
As for your comments about Lyra in 3058 and Kat S-D , I have earlier
pointed already that she is a supposed to do things like that , otherwise
how could Omnipotent Vic S-D hate her ? And there is a term to thing
she is doing in political world : 'Unholy Alliance' of if you prefer (and
I find nore fitting given current situation :)) 'Strange Bedfellows' :)
And she is not the 1st to do it ...Stalin was an ally of US of A during
WWII.
(***) Steiners and Kuritas have hated eachother almost through eternity,
read the Steiner housebook if you dont believe my word. But that was
when Pride of Tamar was still a Scythe of Death and spread fear to hearts
of Lyra's enemies. Thank you, B.Pardoe.
Janne Kemppi
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@toolbox.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: In <4r2qdr$h...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> jke...@raita.oulu.fi (Janne Kemppi) writes:
:
: >Very true *BUT* he switched sides and turned against Lyra. That makes
: >it a treason. He is a scheming traitor, plain and simple. If he had
: >any loyalty, he would not have turned against his former brothers in arms.
: >Survival, yes. Loyalty, no. Heroism, even less.
:
: you defect from a corupt government? I say not. Is it heroism? Well,
: most people don't have the guts to run from a corupt government. I agree
: that this fits Candance Liao more the Focht, but let me ask you one more
: defeted the Clans? The LAAF? You are surely joking. Only his resolve and
: the military strenght of Comstar saved the sorry ass of the Lyran state,
: and possible the rest of the IS. And what was the response of the government
: he left? The head of it went and became a whore in an unwashed clanner's bed.
:
: You tell me, who is the traitor?
For one thing you did not ask anything from me but from jaripekka (who I am
sure answers to this post on his own behalf).
As I have stated before: if you do not like the way things are, you can
A) resign
B) commit suicide
c) defect for your life.
Lets remember that Frederick Steiner was actively plotting to overthrow
Katrina Steiner. I have to say that her offer to him to redeem his honour
in battlefield does not look much to me as defecting corrupt government
for his life.
Lets remember the undercurrents of 'birth' of Anastacius Focht.
Comstar and Draconis Combine make agreement that Comstar may protect
its HPG stations in DC with its own troops and DC will on its own half
receive Mechs and help from Comstar to fight against Federated Commonwealth.
This as you remember also happens to include Lyran Commonwealth. Then
Theodore Kurita gives comstar a 'gift': Frederick Steiner to run their
armies. He is set up almost immediately as head of Comstar military forces.
So Frederick Steiner is heading military forces of faction that is
directly enemy of his country. His new faction is also allied with his
country's enemy. Now this is about as treason as one could get.
As far as fighting Clans was concerned, that surely was not in Frederick
Steiners mind when he received that post in aftermath of Skye Crises (not
unless he had precognition abilities which I keep highly unlikely).
Finally we came into subject of Clans and his leadership of Comstar at
the fighting of it. Comstar had army before Frederick Steiner and would
have fought Clans pretty much similarly anyway because they had vested
interest in stopping Clans when it became clear that their own hide was
in question. Comstar would have fought without him and probably with
similar results. Comstar was there to save their own hide, the Gallant
Defence of Mankind came after that.
As far as Katherine Steiner-Davion was concerned, she has been clearly
cast as villainess of the story and thus she is supposed to do things
like that.
As far as Candace Liao is concerned. I thing you have not quite understood
her situation. She was not defecting from corrupted government because
she was dissident before or being hunted there. She was heir designate
meaning she was next in line of succession. And Maximillian Liao was her
very own father. And she had few planets of her own too. But she defected
with known enemy spy in war time to enemy side and set up a puppet state
directly confronting and fighting her own country. That is treason to me.
Janne Kemppi
William E. Ward
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi wrote:
<snippage to get to the only thing I want to say here>
> Secondly , I find this reveleation of Fredrik Steiners precognitive
> abilities as quite fresh and original theory. Not that I fully agree
> with it , but it is so original that I didn't see it coming...so my
> own vision of future was lacking.
>
> If we discard the theory of Divine Vision Of Future , we must remember
> few things about pre-Clan Comstar to realise the political map of time
> when Frederick Steiner sold his country and became AF.
<snip>
> jaripekka
Alrighty then, here we have the only comment I want to make at this time
of this subthread. Of COURSE Frederick has precognitive ability....
he is a creation of the WRITERS of the "history" of battletech, and so
they can purposely set him on a course that will ultimately see him be
a hero for the Inner Sphere... it's called the power of the pen. Of
course, I realize that this is not what you are debating. But what you
>ARE< debating is ludicrous, as well. Is George Washington a nefarious
traitor, as the British circa 1780 would feel, or a patriot? Because
he won, he's a patriot. Right place, right time, makes all the
difference
between traitor and savior.
--
William Ward
The Rare Mech Times
http://www.cs.odu.edu/~ward_w/btech.html
Vladimir Gabrielescu
>So you consider it gutsier to leave than to stay and try to fix the
>problem ? I could call it easy way out , but since in some cases people
>who stayed ended up martyrs , I wont. But I wont call it as the best way
>either.
There is more to it then that. From what I know of history, martyrs are
being celebrated for supporting their cause even in death, sometimes
against all logic. It's easy to be a loud screamer and do nothing at the
same time. It takes a lot of guts to try to do something about it.
Also emember, Focht didn't exactly leave of its own accord, either.
>To Candance Liao it was the easy way out...she could have stayed few more
>years and became Chancellor. Then she could have turned the system to
>whatever she wanted to.
The politics of Liao are a bit more complicated then that. It's not
that easy for a ruler to change anything, with a couple of powerful
families looking over his/her shoulder.
>Secondly , I find this reveleation of Fredrik Steiners precognitive
>abilities as quite fresh and original theory. Not that I fully agree
>with it , but it is so original that I didn't see it coming...so my
>own vision of future was lacking.
While I fully agree that he had no idea of what will happen, You have
to agree that the events devolped a lot different because of him.
>(1) ComStar opposed the creation of Federated Commonwealth.
> It considered FC as the greatest threat to their vision of
> mankinds future.
ComStar or its leadership? Major difference. I was never very fond of the
the ComStar leadership.
>I find it quite disturbing that you do not consider man who willingly
>joins the ally of the most ancient of enemies (***), and became leader
>of their armed forces , a traitor.
I fully agree that if I was a native Lyran, I would consider Focht
a traitor. Fortunatly, I'm not. In the Btech universe, I am the
commander of a ComGuard fire lance. To me he is a hero. Had he not
defected, we migth have been stuck with a commander of the old
school, who would have gotten all killed, fighting the clans on
their terms. Sue me for appreciating a good commander who didn't
waste more lifes then need it. Also, his name is symbolic of what
he stands for. He is a reborned man with no intrest in controling
thw Lyran Alliance.
>ComGuards effort in Tukayyid undoubtably bought few years of peace
>to Inner Sphere , but let us not be blinded why they fought like they
>did , and what was truly instake : Terra.
Maybe, that was the goal of ComStar not of the ComGuards, or more
importantly, Focht's goal. Most of the ComGuards, view themselves
as guardians of humanity not only Terra or ComStar. Not to mention
that Focht proved what is important to him when he chosed to go ahead
and fight the clans when Terra was overrun by WoB. It's a matter of
priorities and figuring out who the real enemy is.
>And she is not the 1st to do it ...Stalin was an ally of US of A during
>WWII.
How does that exuse her? US and Russia had a common enemy in WWII. May
I ask who is the enemy of K S-D? Because if she defines the Inner Sphere
as her enemy then and only then, she has a reason to ally with Vlad.
As much as you dislike Focht, your WWII anology would be more accurate
if the Lyran's would have allied with ComStar to fight the clans.
And if you want to step out of character and say that she is only a plot
device, then may I kindly remind you that so is Focht or Victor? There
have to be bad guys and good guys and grey guys. And I will fully admit
that Focht is grey, but when I'm piloting my ComGuards Archer, and leading
my a lance into battle, Focht is the only commander I would want sending
me the orders.
>--
> jaripekka
Vlad
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Jonathan R Bezeau (jbe...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: Well, there's a theory that winners write the history books (this is
: especially prevalane in the clans, where each one has a different history
: book... even the losers write the history books. I'm sure that doesn't
: help clan-clan relatins in the slightest)
Yes , and since Clanners only loyalty seems to be to his own genes
it makes the life in such society interresting indeed.
:
: It seems normal for everyone in BT, especially those close to the top
: ranks. They are in a good position to get all they want with a
: well-placed knife and then rely on their wit and political savvy to pull
: it off.
:
There is certain amount of difference in manouvering to better position
compared to selling your homeland, but otherwise I do agree with you.
: May we take Stefan Amaris as example 1?
:
In the end , who did Stefan Amaris betray ? As a head of state of an
indepentend (occupied , but in theory it was indepentend) state he
was only responsible to his people and I got the impression that his
people stayed with him until the end.
: And then all the house lords, who are still backstabbing over the SL throne.
:
Still just politics , and all of them try to get the best deal to their
own countries , even if their visions vary.
: Then Kerensky turned his back on his job and went to found a little cult
: of his own in some far reach of space. He promised re-conquest to keep
: morale up.
oh , had we forgotten the General Kerensky from our biggest traitors
list ? Maybe thats because I really dont consider him as traitor, I
rather have some symphaty for the tired old man who got the pyrean
victory from forces of RWR just to notice that the country he had pledged
his loyalty didnt exist anymore. So he took his people and fled ...
not the most brave thing to do , but at least he didnt betray his
army's trust in him.
:
: Then CoMstar gets in the act with that s#%$ Waterly's Operation Scorpion,
: which should have been an infinitely more costly and disasterous
: failure... which honestly should have returned clan hostilities and
: resulted in a massive ground war on Terra.
I have considerthe foreign policies of sovereign nations a ballgame where
everyone has their own set of secret rules and no-one to act as referee.
So no-one can really accuse anyone else of breaking the rules.
: I'm almost positive that obedience and honor are _not_ the norm in 30xx.
I disagree. If we forget the 'major heroes' and dive deeper in the
BTech Universe , we can find those virtues again. The common
line-soldiers do still follow their commanders , most of the regiments
still follow the policies made by their political leadership. Some of
them even show honor etc... and I do not mean the NKVD of Comrade Marik.
But it just seems like that lack of honor/loyalty is considered as a
"Saving virtue" by so many of the upper class that I would think
that foundation of the society must be rotting too.
John D. Ford
ONCE, marcus...@student.anu.edu.au (Marcus Fong) SIMPLY SAID:
>IMHO they would pay them for risky jobs they didn't feel like risking
>their own units on (what's a few million C-bills as opposed to replacing
>your *own* 'Mechs?), or just to cover gaps in their own forces.
Not to mention that they can screw the mercs over pretty good if they
get them in their employ for long. Grant them a supply contract,
extend their mission objectives, then jack up the prices several times
and "tada!" thanks to the good old Company Store you've got a
battalion of 'Mechs for free!
'Course the MR&BC (Mercenary Review and Bonding Commission) helps take
precautions against this, but who wants ta bet me a lance o' lostech
is still happens quite often?
J.D. Ford
Dave RoaE Mescher
William E. Ward (w...@magician.larc.nasa.gov) wrote:
[snip]
: >ARE< debating is ludicrous, as well. Is George Washington a nefarious
: traitor, as the British circa 1780 would feel, or a patriot? Because
: he won, he's a patriot. Right place, right time, makes all the
: difference
: between traitor and savior.
The victor writes the history books.
</Quote>
--
Dave Mescher
If you find where I left my mind, could you please return it to me?
I seem to have misplaced it and my sanity.
Brett M. Carlisle
In article <4raicd$l...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, jpju...@indy3.oulu.fi (Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi) wrote:
>As for your comments about Lyra in 3058 and Kat S-D , I have earlier
>pointed already that she is a supposed to do things like that , otherwise
>how could Omnipotent Vic S-D hate her ?
Whoa...VS-D *omnipotent*? Do you read the same books I do? Victor is not
nearly omnipotent; if only he were, he wouldn't have to worry about that
b*tch. <smile> Victor has his share of problems, all of which are due to
circumstances beyond his reach.
+-----------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Brett M. Carlisle | "All units, watch out for legless |
| carl...@bio.fsu.edu | Urbies in dug-in positions...they |
| Tickler par Excellence | are nasty..." - Star Col. Tranq |
+-----------------------------+--------------------------------------+
Brett M. Carlisle
In article <4rac9t$j...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, jke...@raita.oulu.fi (Janne Kemppi) wrote:
>Finally we came into subject of Clans and his leadership of Comstar at
>the fighting of it. Comstar had army before Frederick Steiner and would
>have fought Clans pretty much similarly anyway because they had vested
>interest in stopping Clans when it became clear that their own hide was
>in question. Comstar would have fought without him and probably with
>similar results. Comstar was there to save their own hide, the Gallant
>Defence of Mankind came after that.
I agree with most of your other points, but I must disagree here. It was only
through A. Focht's bidding with Khan Ulric and brilliant battle strategy and
leadership that the Com Guard forces had any hope of emerging victorious. It
was definitely a Pyrrhic victory for the Com Guard, but it was that victory
that bought time for the Inner Sphere.
Focht may not be without spot or wrinkle, but he is a brilliant military
strategist and has changed a good bit since becoming Precentor Martial.
Jonathan R Bezeau
: : Well, there's a theory that winners write the history books (this is
: : especially prevalane in the clans, where each one has a different history
: : book... even the losers write the history books. I'm sure that doesn't
: : help clan-clan relatins in the slightest)
: Yes , and since Clanners only loyalty seems to be to his own genes
: it makes the life in such society interresting indeed.
It can make for good roleplaying, as long as all the players are familiar
with Machiavelli's "The Prince"...
: : It seems normal for everyone in BT, especially those close to the top
: : ranks. They are in a good position to get all they want with a
: : well-placed knife and then rely on their wit and political savvy to pull
: : it off.
: There is certain amount of difference in manouvering to better position
: compared to selling your homeland, but otherwise I do agree with you.
It really depends, I guess. Generally, though, blowing a shot at
offing your superior means that you have to leave the country. Since your
government and all it's allies are hunting you, it's the best idea to
throw yourself at the possible mercies of your former enemies than
being surely killed by former comrades. Thus a patriotic power-grab
becomes remembered as a treasonous sellout.
I bet Frederick (for example) would have continued the war with Kurita,
as Archon of the LC. However, he had to flee the country becuase
otherwise he would face certain death. We know that he doesn't want to
die (he would have committed suicide already if he wanted to), so it's
obvious that he runs for it. The DC is really close by, and that's where
he goes. Once there, he will do whatever it takes to stay alive,
including betraying a country that has no place for him anymore. Even if
it pains him to do so.
: : May we take Stefan Amaris as example 1?
: :
: In the end , who did Stefan Amaris betray ? As a head of state of an
: indepentend (occupied , but in theory it was indepentend) state he
: was only responsible to his people and I got the impression that his
: people stayed with him until the end.
I always thought as the betrayal of the Cameron line to be a breach of
honor. He befriended them, promised them troops, and when his chance
came, he blew the whole family away and named himself first lord.
Grab for power, or betrayal of friends... maybe both. I don't really know.
: : And then all the house lords, who are still backstabbing over the SL throne.
: Still just politics , and all of them try to get the best deal to their
: own countries , even if their visions vary.
But they're betraying the Star League that they're trying to form, by
preventing it's formation until they get the best deal, not the second or
third best, but the best deal. They betray the ideal while being loyal to
their nation. Similar things can be argued for all the great traitors,
who are betraying their nation for their own gain. They are being loyal,
but only to themselves.
: : Then Kerensky turned his back on his job and went to found a little cult
: : of his own in some far reach of space. He promised re-conquest to keep
: : morale up.
: oh , had we forgotten the General Kerensky from our biggest traitors
: list ? Maybe thats because I really dont consider him as traitor, I
: rather have some symphaty for the tired old man who got the pyrean
: victory from forces of RWR just to notice that the country he had pledged
: his loyalty didnt exist anymore. So he took his people and fled ...
: not the most brave thing to do , but at least he didnt betray his
: army's trust in him.
That is true. He is easy to see as a hero (at least a tragic one) or a
villain, depending on what you interpret his motives to be. I think he
could have kept his army in the terran system, and maybe reinforced
ComStar. By taking an unassuming role, he could have kept his forces
hidden until such time as they would easily smash all five successor
states and replaced them with a more stable system of smaller districts.
: I have considerthe foreign policies of sovereign nations a ballgame where
: everyone has their own set of secret rules and no-one to act as referee.
: So no-one can really accuse anyone else of breaking the rules.
As far as it goes, they had a standing agreement with the clans to have
men stationed on their worlds to minimize suffering and help assimilate
the new citizens to the Clan culture. Instead, these "ambassadors" become
shock troops and try to rip the clans worlds away from them. I think that
would warrant a massive and immediate invasion of the Terran system, and
a correspondingly huge war for control of the planets, jointly fought by
all the affected clans.
: : I'm almost positive that obedience and honor are _not_ the norm in 30xx.
: I disagree. If we forget the 'major heroes' and dive deeper in the
: BTech Universe , we can find those virtues again. The common
: line-soldiers do still follow their commanders , most of the regiments
: still follow the policies made by their political leadership. Some of
: them even show honor etc... and I do not mean the NKVD of Comrade Marik.
: But it just seems like that lack of honor/loyalty is considered as a
: "Saving virtue" by so many of the upper class that I would think
: that foundation of the society must be rotting too.
Obedience and honor are expected from the grunts. They have very little
to gain by selling their side out or taking things into their own hands.
I would just as easily be infantry for Kurita as Davion or Liao (wooden
spoon infantry! Attack!) or any other army. It's the same thing with a
new uniform. Same with even a rank like regiment commander. There's no
winning by switching sides.
There is no gain in their disobedience, so obedience cannot be taken as a
sign of "good morals", just common sense.
Now make someone a Lord Chancellor or Vizier or something equally privvy
to plans and secrets. Look what happens (by the record so far)... it's
almost certain that this man or woman will either sell out to an enemy,
or try to take the reins for themself. Here, disobedience can actually
put you ahead by quite a bit (if you're not executed), and it seems to be
standard procedure for people to take to treason.
Jonboy
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
John D. Ford (mjf...@iglou.com) wrote:
: ONCE, marcus...@student.anu.edu.au (Marcus Fong) SIMPLY SAID:
:
: >IMHO they would pay them for risky jobs they didn't feel like risking
: >their own units on (what's a few million C-bills as opposed to replacing
: >your *own* 'Mechs?), or just to cover gaps in their own forces.
:
: Not to mention that they can screw the mercs over pretty good if they
: get them in their employ for long. Grant them a supply contract,
: extend their mission objectives, then jack up the prices several times
: and "tada!" thanks to the good old Company Store you've got a
: battalion of 'Mechs for free!
Few places I would use mercs :
1) When building an army from scratch as cadre.
2) When chances of recruiting a standing army are seriously compromised.
3) When speed , not quality counts.
4) in the old-fashined Foreign Legion-style , when political price of
using own army would be to high.
Comments ? And when recruiting , would you hire men or units ?
--
Brian Nolen
Jonathan R Bezeau wrote:
snippage...
>
> I bet Frederick (for example) would have continued the war with Kurita,
> as Archon of the LC. However, he had to flee the country becuase
> otherwise he would face certain death. We know that he doesn't want to
> die (he would have committed suicide already if he wanted to), so it's
> obvious that he runs for it. The DC is really close by, and that's where
> he goes. Once there, he will do whatever it takes to stay alive,
> including betraying a country that has no place for him anymore. Even if
> it pains him to do so.
> more snippage...Actualy, if memory is working right, Fredrick Steiner was ordered to
attack Legion of Vega forces during Theodore Kurita's counterattack
during the 4th Sucession War. This was ordered by Katrina Steiner after
Fredrick's machinations were uncovered.
During this attack, Fredrick was captured and brought before Theodore.
Fredrick barganed for the safe evacuation of his remaining forces.
However, this whole attack, in addition to being a punishment for F.S.,
was also a ruse to allow Loki operatives to make a strike at the
interstellar assets at T.K.'s disposal. They sucessfully disabled enough
ships to shred Theodore's attack plans.
In a fit of rage, Theodore took his pistol and shot Fredrick. It wasn't
until a later novel that he presented Myndo Waterly with a new leader for
the Com Guards. From the warrior trilogy the implication was that
Fredrick was as dead as Michael Hasek. Obviously not though...
Brian Nolen.
Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi
Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@toolbox.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: While I fully agree that he had no idea of what will happen, You have
: to agree that the events devolped a lot different because of him.
Yes , he had some impact on the world around him , but if you are
referring to him being something special after leading ComGuard in
Tukayyid , I must disagree with you. Any senior General Staff Officer
with same information that F.Steiner had about the enemy capabilites
would have fought with almost similar strategy ... and results.
Because of his position (not skill) he had a great opportunity to
view the strenghts and the weaknesses of the Clans , and rest of
the strategy-planning was just using the weaknesses against them.
:
: >(1) ComStar opposed the creation of Federated Commonwealth.
: > It considered FC as the greatest threat to their vision of
: > mankinds future.
:
: ComStar or its leadership? Major difference. I was never very fond of the
: the ComStar leadership.
The impression I have about Comstar (from the novels & sourcebooks) is
that it reminds me of a cult more than a state , so I dont see the major
difference in views of an Acolyte compared to view of a Precentor...
the main difference being the amout of knowledge the member has been
allowed to get about goals etc.
: I fully agree that if I was a native Lyran, I would consider Focht
: a traitor. Fortunatly, I'm not. In the Btech universe, I am the
: commander of a ComGuard fire lance. To me he is a hero. Had he not
: defected, we migth have been stuck with a commander of the old
: school, who would have gotten all killed, fighting the clans on
: their terms. Sue me for appreciating a good commander who didn't
: waste more lifes then need it. Also, his name is symbolic of what
: he stands for. He is a reborned man with no intrest in controling
: thw Lyran Alliance.
:
: Maybe, that was the goal of ComStar not of the ComGuards, or more
: importantly, Focht's goal. Most of the ComGuards, view themselves
: as guardians of humanity not only Terra or ComStar. Not to mention
: that Focht proved what is important to him when he chosed to go ahead
: and fight the clans when Terra was overrun by WoB. It's a matter of
: priorities and figuring out who the real enemy is.
Hmm , sounds pretty much the standard ComStar-answer , straight
from the boys in PR-Office. I must confess in this point that
the impression I got about the Tukayyid-campaign was that Mr Focht
used his troops quite in same cold-blooded effiency than the man
he shares his surname with did in WWI.
:
: >And she is not the 1st to do it ...Stalin was an ally of US of A during
: >WWII.
:
: How does that exuse her? US and Russia had a common enemy in WWII. May
: I ask who is the enemy of K S-D? Because if she defines the Inner Sphere
: as her enemy then and only then, she has a reason to ally with Vlad.
: As much as you dislike Focht, your WWII anology would be more accurate
: if the Lyran's would have allied with ComStar to fight the clans.
For a second lets think about who really are enemies of Lyran Alliance.
1. FedCom (I think thats pretty clear and needs no explanations)
2. Draconis Combine (The close relations FC seems to be having with them
+ the historical facts make them an enemy.)
3. Kell Hounds . (Bred for war makes this quite clear)
4. Clans
So if we start looking for common enemies for Clan Wolf & L.A , we
find at least three. And why should she join up with ComStar ,
which these days quite clearly supports enemies number 1 and 2 ?
:
:
: And if you want to step out of character and say that she is only a plot
: device, then may I kindly remind you that so is Focht or Victor? There
: have to be bad guys and good guys and grey guys. And I will fully admit
: that Focht is grey, but when I'm piloting my ComGuards Archer, and leading
: my a lance into battle, Focht is the only commander I would want sending
: me the orders.
First words that come to my mind about A.F are 'wasted potential'.
What a great villain he could have been. With background like that he
could have been a real obstacle to any would-be heroes. Steinerishly
classy , with certain amount of sadness about the past but no regrets,
with passion to move mountains. But no , he suddenly has to become
the savior of the mankind , friend to all the good guys (what a nice
little family the "Good Guys" really are) and all-around nice fellow.
I wish your character all the best , but I still wonder , if there
isnt at least a tiniest bit of doubt in his heart when serving under
man who has been capable of betraying the trust of those under him.
Jon Ivars ENGE
On 2 Jul 1996, Tim Pierce wrote:
> In <4r7ri5$6...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> jpju...@indy3.oulu.fi (Jari-Pekka M.
> Juopperi) writes:
> >
> >Jon Ivars ENGE (jiv...@aton.abo.fi) wrote:
> >: We Ghost Bears view Focht as an honorable warrior betrayed by
> Waterly,
> >: not the other way around.
> >
> >Which speaks volumes about the honor of the clans by itself. But we
> knew
> >that already , didn't we , since Clans are a society of bullies (what
>
> >else you call their might-makes-right approach) .
> >
> How can you trust a bunch of genetically grown pod people.
> Freeebirth- The only way to go.
>
>
Stravag freebirth honorless spheroids!!!
*GROWL*
I will crush you with my Gauss Bear, you can trust me on THAT!!!
Star Captain Jon 'Gauss Bear' Ivars
Reach me on the chatterweb at: jiv...@abo.fi
If this GB insignia is coming out weird on your end,
try finding the command to 'size it up'on your viewer.
Vladimir Gabrielescu
In <4rdk2j$7...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> jpju...@indy5.oulu.fi (Jari-Pekka M. Juopperi) writes:
>Vladimir Gabrielescu (vgab...@toolbox.rutgers.edu) wrote:
>The impression I have about Comstar (from the novels & sourcebooks) is
>that it reminds me of a cult more than a state , so I dont see the major
>difference in views of an Acolyte compared to view of a Precentor...
>the main difference being the amout of knowledge the member has been
>allowed to get about goals etc.
ComStar has changed a lot. Most of the fanatics have left with WoB.
What's left behind it's less of a cult and more of a .. well run
family bussines.
>the impression I got about the Tukayyid-campaign was that Mr Focht
>used his troops quite in same cold-blooded effiency than the man
>he shares his surname with did in WWI.
Yes and no. There a major difference between sending troops into battle
knowing that the will proabably die, and sending troops into battle to
die just to prove a point. When fighting the clans, death is an accepted
possibility, but what makes it all worth it is that under Focht if you
die it will be for a good reason and not because your leader missplaned
or forgat to send you ammo.
>For a second lets think about who really are enemies of Lyran Alliance.
>1. FedCom (I think thats pretty clear and needs no explanations)
Why is the FedCom and enemy? Is FedCom an enemy of the Lyran Alliance of
K S-D? Because there's a major difference. I doubt that FedCom is of any
threat to L.A. Sure, K S-D may be afraid to loose her control but that's
different then an enemy of the whole state. And god knows why she has this
fear. If she wouldn't go around blowing people up, she could happily enjoy
the leadership of LA. Remember, Victor pretty much gave her the throne of
LA.
>2. Draconis Combine (The close relations FC seems to be having with them
> + the historical facts make them an enemy.)
That is the silliest reasoning. Nevermind they are fighting like devils
to keep an invasion out. Nevermind that in doing so they are saving
your ass as well.
>3. Kell Hounds . (Bred for war makes this quite clear)
Well, lets see. You chase them around the galaxy. You attack their home
planet for no good reason. You blow up some of the family members ...
Hmm when you look at it this way they are really silly hating the Lyran
leadership, arent they? Give me break. Oh yeah ... Have you noticed that
they are still protecting your borders? Last time I checked, people who
are protecting you borders are not really enemies. They might not like
K. but they dont hate the Lyran A.
>4. Clans
I see. And the Wolves are what? Wait, I know, they are a clan.
>So if we start looking for common enemies for Clan Wolf & L.A , we
>find at least three. And why should she join up with ComStar ,
>which these days quite clearly supports enemies number 1 and 2 ?
Because enemy number three is the real one?
>--
> jaripekka
Vladimir
Janne Kemppi
Brett M. Carlisle (carl...@bio.fsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4rac9t$j...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, jke...@raita.oulu.fi (Janne Kemppi) wrote:
: >Finally we came into subject of Clans and his leadership of Comstar at
: >the fighting of it. Comstar had army before Frederick Steiner and would
: >have fought Clans pretty much similarly anyway because they had vested
: >interest in stopping Clans when it became clear that their own hide was
: >in question. Comstar would have fought without him and probably with
: >similar results. Comstar was there to save their own hide, the Gallant
: >Defence of Mankind came after that.
:
: I agree with most of your other points, but I must disagree here. It was only
: through A. Focht's bidding with Khan Ulric and brilliant battle strategy and
: leadership that the Com Guard forces had any hope of emerging victorious. It
: was definitely a Pyrrhic victory for the Com Guard, but it was that victory
: that bought time for the Inner Sphere.
:
: Focht may not be without spot or wrinkle, but he is a brilliant military
: strategist and has changed a good bit since becoming Precentor Martial.
Brett M. Carlisle (carl...@bio.fsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4rac9t$j...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, jke...@raita.oulu.fi (Janne Kemppi) wrote:
: >Finally we came into subject of Clans and his leadership of Comstar at
: >the fighting of it. Comstar had army before Frederick Steiner and would
: >have fought Clans pretty much similarly anyway because they had vested
: >interest in stopping Clans when it became clear that their own hide was
: >in question. Comstar would have fought without him and probably with
: >similar results. Comstar was there to save their own hide, the Gallant
: >Defence of Mankind came after that.
:
: I agree with most of your other points, but I must disagree here. It was only
: through A. Focht's bidding with Khan Ulric and brilliant battle strategy and
: leadership that the Com Guard forces had any hope of emerging victorious. It
: was definitely a Pyrrhic victory for the Com Guard, but it was that victory
: that bought time for the Inner Sphere.
:
: Focht may not be without spot or wrinkle, but he is a brilliant military
: strategist and has changed a good bit since becoming Precentor Martial.
:
For one he knew how Clans worked after following their invasion at best
imaginable place having information from Clans and comstar (and thus IS).
He knew clan high command and saw in practice Clan weaknesses and strengths.
His own leadership was helped with SL command facilities allready on planet.
With all that inside knowledge of fighting and enemy, anyone who would have
been Precentor Martial would have conjured up a similar plan. Nothing
brillant there, just run on the mill command ability.
Janne Kemppi