[BT] Tukayyid, CJF, CW discussion.
SCmdr Jared
In order to cut down on the Wolf propaganda ratio, I have decided to
take a look at what units did what, and who faced who at Tukayyid.
The following from ICSB, CWSB and Tuk scenario book.
"With Precentor Koselka's elite 278th Division detached from the Twelfth
Army to battle Clan Wolf and the White Lions of the 394th Division
facing Clan Jade Falcon, the remaining Twelfth Army..."
That's Wolf - 1 division, Falcons - 1 division.
"Eleventh and Third Armies opposed the Jade Falcons, supported by the
veteran 394th and 77th Divisions from the second and Twelfth Armies and
the First Armys 309th Division."
Wolves - 1 division, Falcons - 2 armies and 3 divisions in total.
"Arrayed against Clan Wolf was the Tenth Army..."
"...but elements of the Ninth Army appeared from the northwest..."
Let's be nice, and disregard the "elements" part, the rest probably
showed up later.
Wolves - 2 armies and 1 division, Falcons - 2 armies and 3 divisions.
Then the Ghost Bears pull out.
"At this point the IlKhan declared an end to the Ghost Bear
campaign...The Precentor Martial also welcomed the end...their forces
departure from Tukayyid left the First and Fourth Armies free to turn
against the hard-fighting Jade Falcons."
Wolves - 2 armies and 1 division.
Falcons - 4 armies and 3 division.
Next the Falcons pull out, leaving the 11th Army free...
"In response to these new attacks the, the Eleventh Army was dispatched
to reinforce the faltering defenses of Brzo."
Wolves - 3 armies and 1 division.
Falcons - 4 armies and 3 division.
The Wolves inflict heavy casualties and...
"...the Thirteenth Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new
ComStar force could join the engagement, however, the battle for
Tukkayid ended."
Thirteenth will therefore not be counted.
Final tally:
Wolves - 3 armies and 1 division.
Falcons - 4 armies and 3 division.
Even when taking into consideration that two armies facing the Falcons
and one army facing the Wolves had been shuffled in from another front
(and suffered losses), that is a rather big difference in opposition.
Add the following statement to the numbers above:
"Led by Clan Smoke Jaguar, the Khans of the other invading Clans
concentrated on preventing Clan Wolf from winning favorable battle
conditions. The conspiracy apparently succeeded; Clan Wolf ended up
landing five full days after the other Clans, and won the right to
attack the smallest and least well defended cities of Brzo and Skupo."
So there it is. Do we have any coherent replies from the Wolves, or
otherwise, out there, that has something to add besides "ClAn sNoT
CHickEn sUx!"?
---------------------------------------------------------------
+ Fredrik Rask (etm...@etm.ericsson.se)
+
+ Star Commander Jared
+ 1st Falcon Jaegers
+ Clan Jade Falcon
---------------------------------------------------------------
Nick
This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a trial
of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
Chris Gomez
It was a Trial of Refusal over Ulric's ouster as ilKhan.
Chris Gomez
wo...@gte.net
Camille Klein wrote:
>
> nw...@u.washington.edu quoted an ENTIRE MESSAGE just to add these THREE
> lines:
>
> > This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
> > which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a
> > trial of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
>
> No. There was no Trial of Annihilation--it was a Trial of Refusal over
> either Ulric's removal as ilKhan OR the renewal of the invasion--one of
> the two.
>
> --Camille.
>
> --
> "It's not everyday you meet a legend." -- Mike Stackpole
> The Elemental Hockey League: http://www.pagesz.net/~godmom/ehl/
> My Personal Pages: http://www.pagesz.net/~godmom/personal/ UIN:2499540
> "Nadin Brzezinski is the reason God made killfiles and suitcase nukes."
> BOYCOTT AMAZON.COM -- The world's spammingest bookstore!
Cameron Huang
In article <34C77CFD...@cookinsomesteelvipersoup.com> SCmdr Jared <ja...@cookinsomesteelvipersoup.com> writes:
>"Led by Clan Smoke Jaguar, the Khans of the other invading Clans
>concentrated on preventing Clan Wolf from winning favorable battle
>conditions. The conspiracy apparently succeeded; Clan Wolf ended up
>landing five full days after the other Clans, and won the right to
>attack the smallest and least well defended cities of Brzo and Skupo."
>
>
>So there it is. Do we have any coherent replies from the Wolves, or
>otherwise, out there, that has something to add besides "ClAn sNoT
>CHickEn sUx!"?
>
Aff. We outbid you. While the leaders of your hidebound clan were busy
falling all over themselves to fight a battle they had no hope of winning,
Clan Wolf commanders, who actually learn(!) from past mistakes, held back,
letting Crusader clans get the 'choicest' combat theaters. In your supreme
overconfidence (did you really think the battle for Terra would be that
easily won? Remember Twycross?) you arrived with horribly lacking
supplies, overzealous warriors thirsty for blood, and virtually no
knowledge of your enemy or their tactics (I would mention strategy as
well, but we all know Jade Falcons are not taught that one).
In your rush to become the ilClan, you forgot something: you have to win
the war, first. So you blazed in, smugly sure of your own inevitable
victory, only to have it snatched from you by freebirth warriors. I doubt
Clan Jade Falcon will ever again underestimate the power of those
defending their homes.
You commanded your own fate. Now you use words to try to undo the shameful
defeat handed down to you at the hands of the ComGuards. You did not win.
You should be dignified about it; instead you rake other clans through the
mud. You whine and pule like a baby.
And the Truce still holds.
Star Colonel Smedley (KIA - 3057)
4th Striker Cluster - Delta Galaxy
Clan Wolf
--
| Cameron Huang | such a pretty house [radiohead] |
| ba...@panix.com | and such a pretty garden |
| chu...@internova.com | and no alarms and no surprises, please |
Nothien Pryde
Nick wrote:
>
> This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
> which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a trial
> of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
>
In a word, NO.
In a few more words:
You mean a trial of refusal that turned into a trial of absorbtion?
Well......
NO!
First of all, Clan Jade Falcon was NOT destroyed. Secondly, the Falcons
WON. Any exile forces are not part of Clan Wolf, and their battle did
NOT count toward the outcome of the trial. When the dust settled on
Wotan, Clan Jade Falcon was the victor. Wolf was then absorbed into Clan
Jade Falcon. The Wolves were later given their own Clan by Elias
Critchell. Vlad Ward then split that group into a "new" Clan Wolf. Have
you read Malicious Intent, quineg?
--
Galaxy Commander Nothien Pryde
Clan Jade Falcon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Star Captain Crosis Jaguar in conversation with Galaxy Commander Nothien
Pryde:
"Now that I am a Falcon, I must know..."
"Yes?"
"It is said that we are very similar in many ways; after all, do not
your hearts burn with the same fury as ours?"
--Nothien smiles--
"You see, that is the differance between us. The Jaguar heart burns with
a fiery inferno that obscures the vision. Falcon rage is cold and
calculating. Remember that; it will serve you well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samuel Fang
Nothien Pryde <cai...@cin.net> wrote:
>First of all, Clan Jade Falcon was NOT destroyed. Secondly, the Falcons
>WON. Any exile forces are not part of Clan Wolf, and their battle did
>NOT count toward the outcome of the trial. When the dust settled on
>Wotan, Clan Jade Falcon was the victor. Wolf was then absorbed into Clan
>Jade Falcon. The Wolves were later given their own Clan by Elias
>Critchell. Vlad Ward then split that group into a "new" Clan Wolf. Have
>you read Malicious Intent, quineg?
Well, we've discussed this before, but let's put it plainly:
As far as the Clans are concerned, Clan Jade Falcon won the "Refusal
War."
As a practical matter, both Clan won the Refusal War. Clan Wolf's
objectives (severely maul the strongest Crusader Clan, and survive)
were met. Clan Jade Falcon's objectives (you're bright enough to
figure them out) were met.
'nuff said?
;-)
Samuel Fang
sf...@vt.edu
Ray Grant
Well researched, well spoken!
We Falcons know who is who in the Zoo... :)
Ray 'Olaf' Grant
----------------
Star Colonel Olaf, C.O. Falcon Guards
(Khan Olaf Pryde Ret.)
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
Olaf's Netmech & Mercenaries quick & dirty Wargame System
http://www.kern.com/~rjgrant/Phoenix.htm
> "Led by Clan Smoke Jaguar, the Khans of the other invading Clans
> concentrated on preventing Clan Wolf from winning favorable battle
> conditions. The conspiracy apparently succeeded; Clan Wolf ended up
> landing five full days after the other Clans, and won the right to
> attack the smallest and least well defended cities of Brzo and Skupo."
>
> So there it is. Do we have any coherent replies from the Wolves, or
> otherwise, out there, that has something to add besides "ClAn sNoT
> CHickEn sUx!"?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> + Fredrik Rask (etm...@etm.ericsson.se)
> +
> + Star Commander Jared
> + 1st Falcon Jaegers
> + Clan Jade Falcon
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
--
Jake Staines
Nick wrote in message <6a84le$9gn$1-...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
>This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
>which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a trial
>of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
>
No, it was the other way around, and it was a trial of Refusal over 'should
Ulric K be an ilKhan anymore', which then supposedly turned into a Trial of
Absorption, which the Falcons won, but Vlad (now khan Vlad Ward) turned it
around in a trial of refusal with
Vandervahn Chistu, one of the Falcon khans at the time.
Jake
of Clan Jade Falcon
calvin chia-wen chang
On 24 Jan 1998, Terrence Fitzsimons wrote:
> >This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
> >which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a
> trial
> >of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
> >
> Trial of Refusal actually and they were only slightly trashed along with
> Wolf Clan.
Actually, Phelan said on Morges when before fighting CJF that the CJF
force he was fighting is the last CJF galaxy that can fight as a galaxy,
the others are too damaged. And he said taht before He slaughtered those
CJF forces.
So, i think CW came out way much better than CJF. CW also didnt use much
Garrioson units too. Ulric and Tasha destroyed "ALL" of the CJF units
they fought in the war, except Twycross and the last planet. So not much
realy of CJF is left.
Right after the War, i'd say Vlad+Phelan's forces has more and better
warriors. but count CW as 2 clans, they has less then CJF.
CJF only had more warriors now because they used the non-warrior-illegal
sibkos. and most of their warriors are 2nd-line or solahma.
Phelan's warriors are REAL warriors. And he has the best warriros, who
"HAS" fought and took the most planets in the whole invasion, plus now
more experience fighting the falcons. His units are VERY Elite IMHO. And
well versed with IS style of fighting, since they they have fought and did
so well against IS.
There is one thing i am troubled by Phelan's wolves. How the hack they
going to get Omni mechs or produce them? or ammo , or armor? I doubt they
can equipt themself effectively if they fight another major battle.
They'd need to build alot of factries and stuff.
Man, can you imagin ARDC, all upgraded to clan tech, not only military,
also civilian. They would be the most advanced planets in IS!
From the novel, we know Phelan and morgan cares about their people alot,
so i am sure there will be alot of upgrade to civilian technologies.
Terrence Fitzsimons
"Nick" <nw...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>This might seem off subject, but I think it is appropriate for deciding
>which Clan is(was) the better. Wasn't Clan Jade Falcon destroyed in a
trial
>of annihilation by Clan Wolf? Just curious.
>
Trial of Refusal actually and they were only slightly trashed along with
Wolf Clan.
TERRENCE FITZSIMONS LZV...@prodigy.com
Samuel Fang
calvin chia-wen chang <cc-c...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>There is one thing i am troubled by Phelan's wolves. How the hack they
>going to get Omni mechs or produce them? or ammo , or armor? I doubt they
>can equipt themself effectively if they fight another major battle.
>They'd need to build alot of factries and stuff.
>Man, can you imagin ARDC, all upgraded to clan tech, not only military,
>also civilian. They would be the most advanced planets in IS!
>From the novel, we know Phelan and morgan cares about their people alot,
>so i am sure there will be alot of upgrade to civilian technologies.
I also kind of figure they're getting a lot of help from the Dragoons,
and that they probably brought some of the more portable production
facilities with them (Ulric was /at least/ that far-sighted).
Samuel Fang
sf...@vt.edu
calvin chia-wen chang
I dont know, all i recall was they brought 6 jumpships with them,
including "Werewolf" the big warship :P. Didnt
mention any stations like WD did. They did said Phelan brought a slice of
CW with them to IS. But it seem its just Personnel wise, not factories
and major hardware. They brought the most promising sibkos with them.
Scientists and techs i am sure too. Mechwise, it seem WYSIWYG.
Well, at least its my impression from what i read.
Paul James
>I dont know, all i recall was they brought 6 jumpships with them,
>including "Werewolf" the big warship :P. Didnt
>mention any stations like WD did. They did said Phelan brought a slice of
>CW with them to IS. But it seem its just Personnel wise, not factories
>and major hardware. They brought the most promising sibkos with them.
>Scientists and techs i am sure too. Mechwise, it seem WYSIWYG.
>Well, at least its my impression from what i read.
>
I would guess they borught a selection from all castes. All these people
would know how to use clan tech. In addition they would have had the
schematics & blueprints for just about anything Clan Wolf produced which was
better than the IS equivalent (Phelan may not have known the long term plan
but Natasha would have and would have advised Ulric, as would have Gus
Nichols). The finla thing they would have brought would have been high tech
low mass items useful in converting IS industries.
Given the knowledge (both in plans and people who can do the work), plus the
some of the high tech components required, plus the starting industries I
would guess Clan Wolf In Exile will be producing Omni-Mechs, spares & ammo
before their stckpiles run out. They basically had very little combat during
Operation Bulldog and would have gained additional reserves from the Smoke
Jaguar cluster they captured.
The only part of their forces they need to be careful with would be their
warship(s) - repair facilities for them would take a long time to construct.
If people are wondering how they got the industrial facilites to upgrade to
clan tech I am pretty certain there is at least one source indicating mech
production facilities on Arc Royal (which if my memory serves me correctly
are connected with the Kell familiy).
Paul
Samuel Fang
"Paul James" <pa...@turing.tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>If people are wondering how they got the industrial facilites to upgrade to
>clan tech I am pretty certain there is at least one source indicating mech
>production facilities on Arc Royal (which if my memory serves me correctly
>are connected with the Kell familiy).
>Paul
Yeah. Erie Mechworks, owned by the Kells. With the amount of Clan
tech the Kell Hounds are operating, one would assume that they've got
some /minimal/ Clan production (like, able to produce some Clan Endo
Steel or Ferro Fibrous. No major weapons systems). [1]
[1] Yeah, I know it's munch. But I also figure very few people have
the balls to claim they're playing as the Kell Hounds or the
Dragoons...
Samuel Fang
sf...@vt.edu
calvin chia-wen chang
On 25 Jan 1998, Samuel Fang wrote:
> "Paul James" <pa...@turing.tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >If people are wondering how they got the industrial facilites to upgrade to
> >clan tech I am pretty certain there is at least one source indicating mech
> >production facilities on Arc Royal (which if my memory serves me correctly
> >are connected with the Kell familiy).
>
> >Paul
>
> Yeah. Erie Mechworks, owned by the Kells. With the amount of Clan
> tech the Kell Hounds are operating, one would assume that they've got
> some /minimal/ Clan production (like, able to produce some Clan Endo
> Steel or Ferro Fibrous. No major weapons systems). [1]
hm, i recall seeing that endo or ferro need to be made in Zero-G, so it
has to have space station to make them right?
And still,, even if they make those stuff, i'd doubt they'd be enough for
KH and CW both. And it takes more than endo and ferro to replace a
destroyed clan frontline omnimech :P
calvin chia-wen chang
On 25 Jan 1998, Paul James wrote:
> I would guess they borught a selection from all castes. All these people
> would know how to use clan tech. In addition they would have had the
> schematics & blueprints for just about anything Clan Wolf produced which was
> better than the IS equivalent (Phelan may not have known the long term plan
> but Natasha would have and would have advised Ulric, as would have Gus
> Nichols). The finla thing they would have brought would have been high tech
> low mass items useful in converting IS industries.
Yea, but knowing how to make them is differeent than having the CAPITAL
(equiptment, raw resources, money) to make them.
> Given the knowledge (both in plans and people who can do the work), plus the
> some of the high tech components required, plus the starting industries I
> would guess Clan Wolf In Exile will be producing Omni-Mechs, spares & ammo
> before their stckpiles run out. They basically had very little combat during
> Operation Bulldog and would have gained additional reserves from the Smoke
> Jaguar cluster they captured.
man, can you imagin what they would need to maintain those mechs and other
equiptments? Esp when they dont really have a homebase and suppliers.
>
> The only part of their forces they need to be careful with would be their
> warship(s) - repair facilities for them would take a long time to construct.
I'd say more than 15+ years to make facility for warships. yea, i know
DC and FC made their Warships fast, but thats just FASA being munchkin.
Yea, like IS can really that much mechs and upgrade them so much in few
years. But thats another discussions :P
>
> If people are wondering how they got the industrial facilites to upgrade to
> clan tech I am pretty certain there is at least one source indicating mech
> production facilities on Arc Royal (which if my memory serves me correctly
> are connected with the Kell familiy).
>
> Paul
Yea, but it takes time to re-tool a factory. and i'd doubt it can be made
to support 2 kell hounds regiment, then also CW. From just 1 factory, its
just unreal. If its so easy to refit and maintain an army, man,, can you
imagin how many mech regiments there would be?
Rolly
Oh am I pissed at myself, I am about 90% sure I saw something in one of
FASA's 300 books that Clan Wolf in Exile was producing mechs and
battlearmor, something to the nature they would help the Kell Hounds
with teh nature of producing such stuff but could not give up their own
production because they needed the replacements. I took this as they
were in the manufacturing process currently?? I could be wrong but am
almost sure I read that somewhere.
Rolly
NadinB
Just to add my 0.02 cents.
First the cynic in me tells me that if FASA thinks they ought to have it, they
do. That off my chest... lets go with the in-universe answer.
They brought with them a good slice of Clan society and took over the Southern
Continent of Arc Royal. I would not be surprised that they have already built
a couple manufacturing facilites to produce the main equipment. Also, would
not be surprised if Wolfs Dragoons sent some advisors from Blackwell, which is
already producing the equipment. Moreover, Victor, happens to be Phellan's
cousing and they like each other, might have also sent advisors from the NAIS.
Of course, the NAIS scientists are going to learn more than teach, but they
have the memory core which has the basis for all this tech, ie, Star League.
As far as reserves... well, the SLDF needs them to hold the line against the
Falcons, hence they had to give them priority to replace or repair any damaged
equipment. They have also become a strategic reserve in case CSJ decides to
get cute, not that they are... but.
Nadin
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Machiavelly.
calvin chia-wen chang
On 26 Jan 1998, NadinB wrote:
> They brought with them a good slice of Clan society and took over the Southern
> Continent of Arc Royal. I would not be surprised that they have already built
> a couple manufacturing facilites to produce the main equipment. Also, would
> not be surprised if Wolfs Dragoons sent some advisors from Blackwell, which is
> already producing the equipment.
Why? WD had prototype of clan technology, not the newest of clan tech.
Phelan's people has the knowledge of newest clantech. no point to talk to
blackwell. If they ask WD for places to get resoruces to build stuff, i
can see that though.
>Moreover, Victor, happens to be Phellan's
> cousing and they like each other, might have also sent advisors from the NAIS.
> Of course, the NAIS scientists are going to learn more than teach, but they
> have the memory core which has the basis for all this tech, ie, Star League.
Ah, they are cousin, but they dont like each other. Aslo, Victor is off on
the campaign, while his little sister is on the thorn of FC. But then,
Phelan did say he like Yonnve the best out of Victor's family :P
Also, i dont think NAIS have much to offer CW if its from SL, cause
clantech is way beyong SL tech. and KErensky's people brought the SL
cores with them when they left from IS, Exodus. Maybe if NAIS offer
Phelan new IS tech stuff like TSM :P But then , Clan warriors dont liek
physicla that much. And I dont think Phelan is trading out Clan tech to
anyone in IS, well, he prob did with his dad. Phelan is preparing against
VLad's return. He is focusing on that, not petty IS politics :P
> As far as reserves... well, the SLDF needs them to hold the line against the
> Falcons, hence they had to give them priority to replace or repair any damaged
> equipment. They have also become a strategic reserve in case CSJ decides to
> get cute, not that they are... but.
Ah, but I think they are to prepare for Vlad more than CJF. Wolves
already prove that they can kick CJF's butt(other than when CJF cheated
and killed Ulric). Ah, but there is no system for replacing parts in
SLDF. So far, they are under one name, but under different commands.
They are not really one country. I'd doubt that would happen till SL is
really united. Then, maybe a House would be WILING GIVING stuff away for
FREE to another house. Also, even if there is a system, the priority
would be giving equiptments to units that are fightying, not to a Garrison
unit like Phelan's wolfs. (yea i know, phelan's wolves are fighting
little too, but nothing major. DC units are usualy the spear head, cause
they want revenge)
my 4 cents.
Paul James
A number of valid arguments have been raised however the difficulties of
upgrading IS factories would be known before they left the IS. I would
predict production facilities would appear in the following order:
1) ammo - basically IS ammo with clan electronics
2) armour - (and maybe IS)
3) weapons (and actuators)
4) complete mechs with clan tech
5) complete omni's
6) warship servicing
As to a timescale - 3 years to get to stage 3, maybe 6 years to 5, 10 to 15
for stage 6.
This assumes they have no conflicts between now and then. Events in
operation Bulldog will have caused damage to at most 3 stars of mechs, and
this damage would be repairable from spares captured with the Smoke Jaguar
cluster. If however CJF or some other faction attack CWIE their stockpiles
of spares would be eating up forcing them to either reduce the overall size
of forces fielded or to slow down the production upgrades. As to how long
such an upgrade took remember Blackwell Corporation went from producing
actuators in 3005 to producing complete assault mechs by 3012 thanks to the
Wolf Dragoons who were only providing funds. With the addition of trained
staff, specialist tech etc it is not unreasonable to expect an existing mech
producer to be producing complete omnis in 6 years.
Paul
Jon Ivars
On 27 Jan 1998, Paul James wrote:
> As to a timescale - 3 years to get to stage 3, maybe 6 years to 5, 10 to 15
> for stage 6.
Well, considering how quickly IS factories are popping up I consider your
estimate very conservative. I don't think the difficulty lies with
technical problems. I would think getting the stuff needed for an upgrade
from the clan homeworlds causes timedelays. Add to that security problems
forcing you to use labour from your own worlds (to prevent IS spies from
infiltrating). As for warship servicing they can probably do that
already. Take one of those unpressurised 30000 ton repairyards found in
TR 3057 with you on a jumpship and when it arrives the clans will have
the capability to service ships of around 600 000 tons in the Inner Sphere.
--
Star Captain Jon 'Gauss Bear' Ivars Member of Clan Ghost Bear
http://www.abo.fi/~jivars/gb.htm CGB, BTTCG, BT links, Munch etc
Matt
>Why? WD had prototype of clan technology, not the newest of clan tech.
Not really. According to the mythology, the Dragoons (best dern unit in the
Inner Sphere, BTW) have pretty much the same level of weaponry (i.e. can
produce all Level 2 Clan stuff), and most of the mech designs from 3050 (at
least those that the Woofs use)
>Phelan's people has the knowledge of newest clantech. no point to talk to
>blackwell. If they ask WD for places to get resoruces to build stuff, i
>can see that though.
>
Exactamundo, and by buddying up with Blackwell, they get stuff produced
even faster.
>
But then , Clan warriors dont liek
>physicla that much.
But, the Wolves may switch to new lines of thinking, by joining the Inner
Sphere, and drop the honor rules. Doubtful, but possible
And I dont think Phelan is trading out Clan tech to
>anyone in IS, well, he prob did with his dad.
Papa Kell doesn't need it - the Kell Hounds got all they needed off of
Luthien, and from what I understand, the Dragoons are lending a hand.
>Ah, but I think they are to prepare for Vlad more than CJF. Wolves
>already prove that they can kick CJF's butt(other than when CJF cheated
>and killed Ulric).
Yeah, right... the Wolves are understrength currently, because they lost
most of the best of their Clan, along with a lot of units in the Refusal
War.
Jake Staines
>technical problems. I would think getting the stuff needed for an upgrade
>from the clan homeworlds causes timedelays. Add to that security problems
>forcing you to use labour from your own worlds (to prevent IS spies from
>infiltrating). As for warship servicing they can probably do that
>already. Take one of those unpressurised 30000 ton repairyards found in
>TR 3057 with you on a jumpship and when it arrives the clans will have
>the capability to service ships of around 600 000 tons in the Inner Sphere.
Yeah. Er..... The one thing that you guys seem to be forgetting is the clans
aren't very happy withPhelans 'Clan wolf in Exile' at the moment. Vlad hates
Phelan anyway, so if he did show is traitorous grim but aroud too much there
may well be a Clan Wolf vs Clan Wof battle, which ould leave everything
left, although belonging to one side, in complete tatters. Kind of like the
Refusal war but worse. (Beacuse both sides are approx. even, know each
other's tactics/strategies and hate each other.)
Remembar also that CJF is also still reeling from the Refusal War and would
take any opportunity to wipe out clanWolf,so ifPhelan showed his face near
Clan Territory it may well lead to the nnihilation of ClanWolf. f course the
only other option is that Vlad and Phelan conspire together so Phelan
purposefully loses a Trial of Possesion over all his stuff, incl.personnel,
and thus Clan Wolf (legit one) gets it all, no questions asked.However, this
is akin tothe stuff the Falcons id to win the Trial ofRefusal, so Vlad most
likely wouldn't talk, no matter how much Phelan did.
The other matter is that The reason Clan Wolf destryed most CJF units they
came against was because CJF put only weak garrison forces and Solomah units
in CW's way. Like that CW was worn down by the time they got to the Falcon
elite, and the Falcons hadn't foughtat all. As it is, the GarrisonTroops and
Solomah units did quite a good job, and whilst they all went down, CW was
half crippledby the timethey faced any decent CJF units, and thus lost
horribly as soon as they got that far.
Which alo explains CJF only using solomah units and PGCs.
Jake Staines
>They brought with them a good slice of Clan society and took over the
Southern
>Continent of Arc Royal. I would not be surprised that they have already
built
>a couple manufacturing facilites to produce the main equipment. Also,
would
>not be surprised if Wolfs Dragoons sent some advisors from Blackwell, which
is
>already producing the equipment. Moreover, Victor, happens to be Phellan's
>cousing and they like each other, might have also sent advisors from the
NAIS.
>Of course, the NAIS scientists are going to learn more than teach, but they
>have the memory core which has the basis for all this tech, ie, Star
League.
>
>As far as reserves... well, the SLDF needs them to hold the line against
the
>Falcons, hence they had to give them priority to replace or repair any
damaged
>equipment. They have also become a strategic reserve in case CSJ decides
to
>get cute, not that they are... but.
Yeah. In addition to my last post Phelan isn't likely to re-enter Clan space
anyway, but he's doing fine gving all our secrets to the enemy. Now do you
see why the Falcos hated Kerensky (Ulric) ? If he hadn't ordered them to go
there there would be no problem.
Jake Staines
>Ah, but I think they are to prepare for Vlad more than CJF. Wolves
>already prove that they can kick CJF's butt(other than when CJF cheated
>and killed Ulric).
Yeah? what about the time CJF didn't sheat and killed Natasha?
And the time lots of PGCs andsolomah units didfor over a third of Natashas
force and lots of Ulrics?
And the time.....
~Faceit, no single clan is better than any othersingle clan, just have more
mechs or more fighters or pilots, or techs or whatever. No clan realy breeds
better wariors, just ones with different specialities.
Ndknight14
>>Why? WD had prototype of clan technology, not the newest of clan tech.
> Not really. According to the mythology, the Dragoons (best dern unit in the
>Inner Sphere, BTW) have pretty much the same level of weaponry (i.e. can
>produce all Level 2 Clan stuff), and most of the mech designs from 3050 (at
>least those that the Woofs use)
>
>
>>Phelan's people has the knowledge of newest clantech. no point to talk to
>>blackwell. If they ask WD for places to get resoruces to build stuff, i
>>can see that though.
>>
> Exactamundo, and by buddying up with Blackwell, they get stuff produced
>even faster.
IF you read Battlespace...they talk about the advent of clan technology in the
history section... apparently ..a few years (or decades..) after the
successfull Clan integration on the people of the SLDF....the scientist caste
improved their weapons..further known as Clan technology.....somewhere around
2700 i believe....Clan technology did not change much..there is only so much
improvements you can make on a weapons i believe..anymore is just munchy....but
back on the Wolf Dragoon's issue...initially the Wolf Dragoons were equipped
with 5 regiments of Star League vintage mechs. But during their 2nd supply run
in 3030, they came back with some new designs..(omnimechs??.) and they managed
to hide those mechs from the prying eyes of the Inner Sphere Intelligence
Agency..(a feat that not many can accomplish) until 3049 when they told the
Great Houses of their status among the clans.
Precentor Lyonel of the 321st Comstar Division
calvin chia-wen chang
On 31 Jan 1998, Jake Staines wrote:
> Yeah? what about the time CJF didn't sheat and killed Natasha?
joke. Its so unrealistic, and its prob the only way Joana could have
killed NAtasha. FASA prob realize there is no way realisticly a warrior
like Joana
could have killed natasha, so they made up that bogus jumpjet thing.
And it was not even honorable(typical CJF). During the fight, NAtasha was
kicking Joana's butt. Natasha want to fight people in CJF with higher
rank to kill them, so, she told joana to go away, because she was no
challenge. Instead of aceepting the hegira( i said hegira because natasha
did offere joana to withdraw from the combat, which is Hegira) like a
honaorable loosing
warrior would, Joana sneak attacked NAtasha after Nat offered Joana a
chance to withdraw.
After a warrior made an offer like that,hegira, one should have replied
back, not sneak attack natasha while she is waiting for Joana's reply.
> And the time lots of PGCs andsolomah units didfor over a third of Natashas
> force and lots of Ulrics?
> And the time.....
er, i hope you can count, because the ratio of loss of CW vs CJF in ToR is
not even close. CW destroyed EVERY units they fought before Colmar.
So what if natasha losted 1/3 of her forces when the units she fought
against were all destroyed, also keep in mind that through out the ToR, CW
had to fight against much more forces. So, braging that CW only losted
1/3 of their forces when they totally destroyed the superior numbered
enemy forces is funny, esp from a CJF.
calvin chia-wen chang
On 31 Jan 1998, Jake Staines wrote:
> Clan Territory it may well lead to the nnihilation of ClanWolf. f course the
> only other option is that Vlad and Phelan conspire together so Phelan
> purposefully loses a Trial of Possesion over all his stuff, incl.personnel,
> and thus Clan Wolf (legit one) gets it all, no questions asked.
er? Trial of Possesion?
Try to read more stuff about the clans and the novels and the Source books
please. Its kinda tiring to correct everything you say when you post :P
calvin chia-wen chang
On 1 Feb 1998, Ndknight14 wrote:
> >>Why? WD had prototype of clan technology, not the newest of clan tech.
> > Not really. According to the mythology, the Dragoons (best dern unit in the
> >Inner Sphere, BTW) have pretty much the same level of weaponry (i.e. can
technoogy, in the Blood of KErensky Trillogy. This was the conversation
where Jaime Wofl was telling the house leaders to unit against the clans.
> > Exactamundo, and by buddying up with Blackwell, they get stuff produced
> >even faster.
And i'd imagin WD need every bit of mechs and partsand resources after
their Civil war.
Havent seen anything in books suggest WD-Phelan's wolf workign together
making stuff.
> back on the Wolf Dragoon's issue...initially the Wolf Dragoons were equipped
> with 5 regiments of Star League vintage mechs. But during their 2nd supply run
> in 3030, they came back with some new designs..(omnimechs??.) and they managed
> to hide those mechs from the prying eyes of the Inner Sphere Intelligence
> Agency..(a feat that not many can accomplish) until 3049 when they told the
> Great Houses of their status among the clans.
NOPE, WD never brought any omnimechs to IS. They were given 2nd class
mechs and weapons, barely fit for a clan unit, but to the war-torn
successor states,they are like Gold.(remeber before FASA went munch?
mechwarriors actualy hvae to steal, scrounge parts to fix their 300+ years
old machines, which most of the time are barely working.)
Jaime and Joshua Wolf were in PCG
in CW before actualy, before they came to IS.
A Wolf Khan did gave Jaime Wolf the blueprints to prototype omnimechs and
clantech weapons(which were little outdated compare to the clantech in
invasion). So, those weapons are actualy generations behind (50 years is
many generations for clan warriors). Yes, there are not many technology
advances in that time as compare to 3025 tech to clantech, but the people
in Science Caste keep playing with figures and stuff in those weapons, and
the effficiency+power of those weapons probably are more powerful.
Matt
>Yeah? what about the time CJF didn't sheat and killed Natasha?
cockpit? Anyway, wouldn't that be a physical?
Jake Staines
>> Yeah? what about the time CJF didn't sheat and killed Natasha?
>joke. Its so unrealistic, and its prob the only way Joana could have
>killed NAtasha. FASA prob realize there is no way realisticly a warrior
>like Joana
>could have killed natasha, so they made up that bogus jumpjet thing.
As I recall, Robert Thurston wrote 'I am Jade Falcon' and FASA just read the
synopsis.
>And it was not even honorable(typical CJF). During the fight, NAtasha was
>kicking Joana's butt. Natasha want to fight people in CJF with higher
>rank to kill them, so, she told joana to go away, because she was no
>challenge. Instead of aceepting the hegira( i said hegira because natasha
>did offere joana to withdraw from the combat, which is Hegira) like a
>honaorable loosing
>warrior would, Joana sneak attacked NAtasha after Nat offered Joana a
>chance to withdraw.
>After a warrior made an offer like that,hegira, one should have replied
>back, not sneak attack natasha while she is waiting for Joana's reply.
I'm not going to go get the novel right now, but Idon't recall that Natasha
was unready for combat.... And the whole point of this was to show you that
wolves can get stupid and arrogant(normaly CJF traits, according to you) as
well, and it does them just as much good. Natash was the only Wolf warrior
worth anything, after all.
>
>> And the time lots of PGCs andsolomah units didfor over a third of
Natashas
>> force and lots of Ulrics?
>> And the time.....
>er, i hope you can count, because the ratio of loss of CW vs CJF in ToR is
>not even close. CW destroyed EVERY units they fought before Colmar.
>So what if natasha losted 1/3 of her forces when the units she fought
>against were all destroyed, also keep in mind that through out the ToR, CW
>had to fight against much more forces. So, braging that CW only losted
>1/3 of their forces when they totally destroyed the superior numbered
>enemy forces is funny, esp from a CJF.
Yeah, the point of that was that they were PCGs ad Solomah units. The whole
thing was 'Throw some useless and or boring troops at them to soften them up
a bit. And it worked. You wolves should be ashamed that Natasha had lost a
thrid of her force to PCGs and Old warriors.
Jake Staines
calvin chia-wen chang wrote in message ...
Phelan approaches Vlad, says 'Hi, I'm you're most hated enemy who took half
your clan off into the inner sphere. Would you liketo make a deal?' (Here's
the unrealistic part) Vlad listens.
A little while later, Vlad openly challenges Phelan to a Trial of Possession
over his entire chunk of the old clan wolf. Vlad toasts Phelan, Phelan dies,
Vlad and his Wolf Clan get all the loot, including personnel.
The only part of that I think I got wrong there is that I spelt 'Possession'
wrong the first time. Which is a pretty petty reason to reply like that.
Samuel Fang
"Jake Staines" <Ja...@whitehole.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Yeah, the point of that was that they were PCGs ad Solomah units. The whole
>thing was 'Throw some useless and or boring troops at them to soften them up
>a bit. And it worked. You wolves should be ashamed that Natasha had lost a
>thrid of her force to PCGs and Old warriors.
>Jake
>of Clan Jade Falcon
Uhhh... The Falcon Guard, the jewel of the crown of the Jade Falcon
Galaxy, Pryde's Pride, the Redeemers of Tukayyid, the Khan of the Jade
Falcon's pride, is a PGC? [1] Or a solahma unit?
PGC= Provisional Garrison Cluster. What does PCG stand for?
;-)
Samuel Fang
sf...@vt.edu
Jake Staines
Matt wrote in message <6b60jk$e9f...@moon.pepperdine.edu>...
>>Yeah? what about the time CJF didn't sheat and killed Natasha?
>cockpit? Anyway, wouldn't that be a physical?
>
touched her cockpit' and seeing as the legs was stationary, then I'd say
that was Natasha bashing her head on a mech leg, as opposed to Joanna
hitting her in the head. The flames from a flamer aren't considered
physical, s why should those out a jump jet be?
Chris Thompson
Jake Staines wrote:
> Depends on how you wnat to interpret it. I'd say 'only if the actual leg
> touched her cockpit' and seeing as the legs was stationary, then I'd say
> that was Natasha bashing her head on a mech leg, as opposed to Joanna
> hitting her in the head. The flames from a flamer aren't considered
> physical, s why should those out a jump jet be?
I've always had a problem with this rule (hence why I don't use it). I
mean, if we apply this rule to attacks vs. BattleMechs, then you'd
logically have to apply the damage to a building if you were atop it and
jumped off, and roll for fire ignition every time you jumped out of a
woods hex. IMHO, this rule is just as hokey as the "Stackpole"
engine-explosion rule, only not nearly as much fun. *grin*
Simon H. Lee
In article <34E74712...@ohana.com>,
Don't forget jumping from ice hexes :) (I can see this thread
bodily leaping back into the entire discussion of jump jet physics, which
is a little scary, but hey...)
Tangent: If a 'Mech's head is reduced by damage to one point of
internal structure (or even full IS, but no armor) and someone hits this
'Mech with a flamer (set to do heat) or an Inferno round, does the pilot
get toasted automatically? House rules?
--
__ <*> (-o-) A L L D O N E! B Y E B Y E!
(__ * _ _ _ _ I think this is the part where I'm
__)|| | |(_)| \ chased by a giant stone ball.
Jake Staines
>
>Uhhh... The Falcon Guard, the jewel of the crown of the Jade Falcon
>Galaxy, Pryde's Pride, the Redeemers of Tukayyid, the Khan of the Jade
>Falcon's pride, is a PGC? [1] Or a solahma unit?
>
>PGC= Provisional Garrison Cluster. What does PCG stand for?
>;-)
First, the Falcon Guard et al were the (so called) elite troops the PGCs
were softening up the Wolves for. I thnk I mntioned that in the post before
his reply that I defended in the one he was attacking in the quote I had on
his last post. (Or something)
Anyway, a PCG stands for 'Im typing on a laptop keyboard I'm not used to and
every now and again miss out letters, hit the wrng letters, sometimes in the
wrong order, and leave out spaces a lot by hitting alt instead ofthe space
bar.'
So there. nyaah!
Jake Staines
Oh and before you say anything, I'm not replying to this thread either, or
any where I tend to argue a lot with you about CW and CJF. I'm just after
light relief and entertainment, the oppotunityto communicate ith those whose
hobby I share, and the forum to pose innocent questions (about rules,
mostly)
If I wanted a slagging match, I'd talk to my brother more.
(The other thing about reading your posts that irritates me is that they're
often half - illegible due to bad spelling and worse grammar.)
Samuel Fang
"Jake Staines" <Ja...@whitehole.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I know you're not responding to this thread, but...
posted/emailed
>>Uhhh... The Falcon Guard, the jewel of the crown of the Jade Falcon
>>Galaxy, Pryde's Pride, the Redeemers of Tukayyid, the Khan of the Jade
>>Falcon's pride, is a PGC? [1] Or a solahma unit?
>>
>>PGC= Provisional Garrison Cluster. What does PCG stand for?
>>;-)
>First, the Falcon Guard et al were the (so called) elite troops the PGCs
>were softening up the Wolves for. I thnk I mntioned that in the post before
>his reply that I defended in the one he was attacking in the quote I had on
>his last post. (Or something)
Hunh? Never mind. I'm gonna leave this thread be, too.
>Anyway, a PCG stands for 'Im typing on a laptop keyboard I'm not used to and
>every now and again miss out letters, hit the wrng letters, sometimes in the
>wrong order, and leave out spaces a lot by hitting alt instead ofthe space
>bar.'
>So there. nyaah!
Nyahhh!!!
;-)
Samuel Fang
sf...@vt.edu
"Hey, we don't need alcohol to have fun!!"
- Unidentified UNC band member
"Yeah, and you don't need a partner to have sex, either!!"
- Eric "Kos-mo" Fischer, VTubas
Jake Staines
> I've always had a problem with this rule (hence why I don't use it). I
>mean, if we apply this rule to attacks vs. BattleMechs, then you'd
>logically have to apply the damage to a building if you were atop it and
>jumped off, and roll for fire ignition every time you jumped out of a
>woods hex. IMHO, this rule is just as hokey as the "Stackpole"
>engine-explosion rule, only not nearly as much fun. *grin*
>
a lot of things I rant about:
The European Union (W/ or W/out single currency)
Spam
Frenchmen )
Germans )- These are catchalls, not about individuals
My brother )- Definitely about an individual
Wardens
Maximum Tech
TSR
The list goes on...
Chris Thompson
Jake Staines wrote:
<snip uncredited rant from me about the "I Am Jade Falcon" attack>
> I never said I liked it, just that it existed. The same situation exists ith
> a lot of things I rant about:
And I never said you did like it. Just happened to be continuing your
rant and adding my own two bits. If you're gonna take me out of context
at least mention that I was the one who said it.
--
Chris Thompson
maf...@ohana.com
"Pilot Mackies - the ultimate BattleMech"
Owner of The Double Sixes Mercenary Company, proud users of Kali-Yama
brand BattleMech lubricants - "We use K-Y Jelly; shouldn't you?"
Jake Staines
Chris Thompson wrote in message <34F1FAEA...@ohana.com>...
>> I never said I liked it, just that it existed. The same situation exists
ith
>> a lot of things I rant about:
>
> And I never said you did like it. Just happened to be continuing your
>rant and adding my own two bits. If you're gonna take me out of context
>at least mention that I was the one who said it.
>
>--
>Chris Thompson
>maf...@ohana.com
Hey, this is getting malicious.... Now, for clarification, that was /not/
out of context. Out of context is where you write:
Clan wolf are definitely the
best clan and CJF are the
worst of all
And I reply, taking out bits I dont like so it reads:
Clan wolf are definitely the
worst of all
But I don't do that. Just ask my good friend Cilvan.