[BT] Regarding House Sourcebooks & Lvl 3 tech
JM
1) I'd heard somewhere that there was a chance that the old House
Sourcebooks were being transferred to PDF or something similiar and going to
be made available for free downloads. Since I only had the Marik, Periphery,
Comstar, Davion and Steiner (and have sicne lost all but the Steiner), this
would really float my boat. Any word on this? Or am I just wishful dreaming?
2) Since I haven't actually played with it I'm shooting wild here, but to
me, this Lvl 3 tech seems awfully munchkin-y. Am I right? Any opinions?
cra...@hotmail.com
Plenty of opinions. Almost seems like you're trolling with
that Q but, hell, I'm guilty of enough similar posts.
IMO, the munchkin factor of L3 tech depends entirely on
the tech and the application.
I love the expanded artillery rules of Max Tech, frex,
and I don't think they're especially munchy. SOME of
the construction options in Max Tech aren't bad either,
particularly the mech turret options, second turrets
and sponsons on tanks, etc.
Others are more goofy or under-balanced than munchkin:
XXL engines, composite internal structures, engines
rated over 400, etc.
There are people on this ng who find some or all L2
equipment munchkin. I like the gauss rifle and semi-
guided LRMs myself, but I have to admit they're munchkin
fodder.
--
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"It's not important how many people I've killed - what's important
is how I get along with the people still alive." -- Jimmy "Tulips"
Tudesky, The Whole 9 Yards
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
JM
cra...@hotmail.com wrote in message <8m7762$9k5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <3987096a$0$95...@wodc7nh6.news.uu.net>,
> JM <jma...@qconline.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1) I'd heard somewhere that there was a chance that the old House
>> Sourcebooks were being transferred to PDF or something similiar and
>going to
>> be made available for free downloads. Since I only had the Marik,
>Periphery,
>> Comstar, Davion and Steiner (and have sicne lost all but the
>Steiner), this
>> would really float my boat. Any word on this? Or am I just wishful
>dreaming?
>>
>> 2) Since I haven't actually played with it I'm shooting wild
>> here, but to me, this Lvl 3 tech seems awfully munchkin-y.
>> Am I right? Any opinions?
>
>Plenty of opinions. Almost seems like you're trolling with
>that Q but, hell, I'm guilty of enough similar posts.
>
No, not trying to troll. Maybe I worded that poorly. I'm getting back into
Btech after a long hiatus and since I have no experience with the Lvl 3
rules, I was wondering if they were worth buying (i.e. if they add color to
the game) or if they're just powergame rules that could unbalance a
campaign. Sorry about the mixup there...
Kid Chameleon
into silicon:
<
<1) I'd heard somewhere that there was a chance that the old House
<Sourcebooks were being transferred to PDF or something similiar and going to
<be made available for free downloads. Since I only had the Marik, Periphery,
<Comstar, Davion and Steiner (and have sicne lost all but the Steiner), this
<would really float my boat. Any word on this? Or am I just wishful dreaming?
<
Sure are. Read the FAQ.
"If this is all the gods can do, I'm over to the dark side so fast."
Tom Servo
R.G.M. Moderator 0 of 9, the FAQ Bitch
Ken'
cra...@hotmail.com
JM <jma...@qconline.com> wrote:
>
> No, not trying to troll. Maybe I worded that poorly. I'm
> getting back into Btech after a long hiatus and since I have no
> experience with the Lvl 3 rules, I was wondering if they were
> worth buying (i.e. if they add color to the game) or if
> they're just powergame rules that could unbalance a
> campaign. Sorry about the mixup there...
I'd buy Max Tech and, if you can find it, the Tactical
Handbook. You can look, marvel, try things out, get
horrified, and use only what seems to work in your games.
Maybe get a copy of Unbound while you're at it.
Daniel Binkis
> I'd buy Max Tech and, if you can find it, the Tactical
> Handbook. You can look, marvel, try things out, get
> horrified, and use only what seems to work in your games.
Agreed here. They both are useful, especially if you're looking for rules
to enhance your playing ability. Again, make sure not to fall into the rut
of being used to certain Level 3 rules, it's hurt more than a couple out of
my group when getting to a tournament and not being used to Level 2 Partial
Cover rules, etc. Besides they both offer some neat equipment that you can
try out, and then realise that your gaming actually was more fun when it
stopped being a bunch of 'Mechs jumping 8 every turn firing their ER Pulse
or normal Pulse lasers with a Var-Range Targetting Computer (making any
terrain invaluable, and Laser Reflec Armor a must).
> Maybe get a copy of Unbound while you're at it.
I would definitely disagree here. Unbound was a waste of time, IMHO. No
real Level 3 rules additions (excepting for rules directly associated with
Level 3 equipment), and the equipment presented in Unbound that wasn't
further refined in TacHB or MaxTech was either goofy (i.e. Blue Shield
Project) or useless (i.e. Silver Bullet Gauss)
But, of course mileage will vary depending on the user.
Dan
paul_...@my-deja.com
cra...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <3987878a$0$22...@wodc7nh0.news.uu.net>,
> JM <jma...@qconline.com> wrote:
> >
> > No, not trying to troll. Maybe I worded that poorly. I'm
> > getting back into Btech after a long hiatus and since I have no
> > experience with the Lvl 3 rules, I was wondering if they were
> > worth buying (i.e. if they add color to the game) or if
> > they're just powergame rules that could unbalance a
> > campaign. Sorry about the mixup there...
>
>
For Lovecraft fans among us...
[Writing with his toes from the Psychiatric Wing of Miskatonic General
Hospital, stopping intermittantly to howl at the moon]
No! [starts sweating] Its not for the sane, [whimpers loudly] it has
pictures and stats on unspoken things and beings best left unnamed
and forgotten [beats head on floor vigerously]. The arcane technology
will wither your soul [begins to twich uncontrollably] and leave you
ready to accept all types of heretical L3 equipment and weapons [turns
TV to Republican Convention]...and you'll be eternally damned for
it... [looks for any movie with Elizabeth Hurley in it, settles for
Event Horizon] I'm living proof [tries to figure a way to put a Long Tom
in a Hunchback]...
But since DB Beta 2/HMPro I'm feeling much better [crawls off to the
bath...to study for his MCSE exam]...the linoleum, the Norwegian Wood
... HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHA
[Goes back to trying to chew through his straightjacket]
Paul
cra...@hotmail.com
Daniel Binkis <bink...@osu.edu> wrote:
> <cra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8mblb5$i97
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> IMHO. No real Level 3 rules additions (excepting for rules
> directly associated with Level 3 equipment), and the equipment
> presented in Unbound that wasn't further refined in TacHB or
Well, yeah. A lot was replaced by the Tactical Handbook.
> MaxTech was either goofy (i.e. Blue Shield Project)
Bah. You can never have enough force fields in Battletech.
> or useless (i.e. Silver Bullet Gauss)
You skipped the ultimate cool super kean-o Virtual Reality
Piloting Pod and Direct Neural Interface!
The neurohelmet is dead! Long live DNI!
(At least until vehicle control rigs are available).
--
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"It's not important how many people I've killed - what's important
is how I get along with the people still alive." -- Jimmy "Tulips"
Tudesky, The Whole 9 Yards
cra...@hotmail.com
paul_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> For Lovecraft fans among us...
>
> [Writing with his toes from the Psychiatric Wing of Miskatonic
> General Hospital, stopping intermittantly to howl at the moon]
>
> No! [starts sweating] Its not for the sane, [whimpers loudly] it has
> pictures and stats on unspoken things and beings best left unnamed
> and forgotten [beats head on floor vigerously]. The arcane technology
> will wither your soul [begins to twich uncontrollably] and leave you
> ready to accept all types of heretical L3 equipment and weapons
> [turns TV to Republican Convention]...and you'll be eternally
> damned for it...
Yes, yes, I zee. It zounds like the patient is describing
reading the Republican party platform. What is this "L3 equipment
and weapons" he speaks of, nurse?
> [looks for any movie with Elizabeth Hurley in it,
> settles for Event Horizon] I'm living proof [tries to figure a
> way to put a Long Tom in a Hunchback]...
> But since DB Beta 2/HMPro I'm feeling much better [crawls off to the
> bath...to study for his MCSE exam]...the linoleum, the Norwegian Wood
> ... HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHA
>
> [Goes back to trying to chew through his straightjacket]
ROFLMAO!
A Hunchback with a Long Tom?
I managed a Hunchback with a Long Tom Artillery Cannon.
Endosteel, XL Gyro, 4/6/0, standard fusion engine, RT
(12 crits) RA (3 crits) Long Tom Cannon, 2 tons of ammo
(LT), CASE II (LT), 2 DHS in LT, 2 ER ML (RA/LA), 10
tons of standard armor. Could be good for a few laughs.
Let me know if you get a real Long Tom into a Hunchback.
Jonathan Schattke
> Let me know if you get a real Long Tom into a Hunchback.
30 crits kind of makes it impossible with the current splitting rules.
It would take both side torsos, the center torso, and an arm - and the
rules IIRC only allow splitting between 2 adjacent locations.
--
\ /\ / If you aren't happy,
VVizVVom - Wandering Kernel of Happiness it's not my fault.
~~~> homepage at http://pages.ripco.net/~wizwom/ <~~~
NadinB
>of being used to certain Level 3 rules, it's hurt more than a couple out of
>my group when getting to a tournament and not being used to
>Level 2 Partial
>Cover rules, etc.
You have no idea how often I start the brief before a Tourney, covering all
them rules that are commonly used in area that are NOT L-2. I get more than one
surprised look with the extended movement table. People just love it, and it
makes sense and it is L-3
Nadin Brzezinski
Jonathan Gardner
>
> 1) I'd heard somewhere that there was a chance that the old House
> Sourcebooks were being transferred to PDF or something similiar and going to
> be made available for free downloads. Since I only had the Marik, Periphery,
> Comstar, Davion and Steiner (and have sicne lost all but the Steiner), this
> would really float my boat. Any word on this? Or am I just wishful dreaming?
Rumor is true. Watch www.fasa.com.
>
> 2) Since I haven't actually played with it I'm shooting wild here, but to
> me, this Lvl 3 tech seems awfully munchkin-y. Am I right? Any opinions?
>
I think the whole clan thing is munchkinny. Bring back the days when PPC's
and AC/20s were king! Those were the days... I used to memorize all the
mechs, and because there were only so many weapons and the rules were not
as complicated (with all the new tech, it is impossible!) you could
actually make battle plans, and play chess, pushing units forward and
drawing them back, playing tug of war.
Nowadays, you just get the strongest mechs you can find and line them up
and beat the crud out of each other. Nobody cares where all the tech came
from. Nobody stops fighting to save spare parts. Nobody retreats anymore
at all it seems. They just throw mech after mech after mech into huge pile
of scrap metal, then clear the battlefield and send in another 3
regiments. There's plenty being manufactured. There's new tech on the way
to render all the old tech useless. The successor states wait while they
manufacture more mechs to blow up, instead of throwing half-repaired units
into a dirt ball planet for little or no reason. I hope the whole tide
turns and C3 units become as rare as LAMs were. Then that would be fun -
you could imagine what it would be like trying to find spare parts for a
broken c3 unit in the middle of Davion space on a raid. You can imagine
how quickly all the mechs would revert back to PPCs and such when Gauss
Rifles were no longer serviceable. And when the DHS technology disappears,
then maybe heat will become an issue. Maybe someone might actually
overheat and get an ammoexplosion after an alpha strike like it used to
be!
I remember when I picked up Crescent Hawk's Inception and I loved it! The
whole atmosphere of the post-apocolyptic type Mad Max patched up scavenged
mech thingy was fun. Then I got Crescent Hawk's Revenge and it started off
okay and then you started getting weird tech and stuff and I hated it. CHI
convinced me to order BT (the 1985 one) by mail, and it came several weeks
later. CHR turned me off... and I am coming back on only to write a
battletech board game for windows.
Is there anyone else out there who plays with 3025 tech all the time? Any
good Level I designs? Or am I a dying breed...
DiamondShark404
>of being used to certain Level 3 rules, it's hurt more than a couple out of
>my group when getting to a tournament
That's why I don't waste my time at those stupid tournaments.
Daniel Binkis
> In article <8mbn0q$pv$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> > or useless (i.e. Silver Bullet Gauss)
>
> You skipped the ultimate cool super kean-o Virtual Reality
> Piloting Pod and Direct Neural Interface!
>
> The neurohelmet is dead! Long live DNI!
Is it just me, or didn't we have this discussion about a month or two ago?
DNI is great, until you realise that *ANY* hit on the battlemech causes
Pilot Hits. I don't know about you, but I want my pilot to live, in fact,
I'd rather my pilot never had to worry about staying consious, especially if
he's not getting hit in the head at all. This is where I think EI is really
a good trade-off between DNI and reality.
Dan
--
Visit the Design Handbook
http://btech.danbinkis.com/
Davion3025
replaced by kids who are addicted to instant gratification.
They don't want to wait for results, but would rather see a mech
fall after one or two rounds. They don't have the kind of
patience it takes to play L1 anymore. Ever wonder why it seems
like all the new players want to play Clanners? Their addicted
to success coming very easy and L1 is just to hard to win
with.
Think I'm crazy? Ever wonder why there are so many sites
devoted to cheat codes? Instead of hammering away at a problem,
they want to find the easy way out and cheat. It's the same
story with our schools. They have been told that there is no
right or wrong and so they see cheating as the fastest and
easiest way to accomplish their goals. What's this got to do
with Battletech, you ask? Plenty, when you consider that this
generation that is coming up now is addicted to instant
gratification. The munchiness has just began and will only get
worse. As far as I'm concerned, the Clans don't exist, the
events that took place on Helm in 3028 never came to light
(ComStar took the database, but the GDL got a whole mess of
Mechs and a base), and the Fourth War ended with the FedCom
breaking back apart. Why in my days dadgumit, we didn't need
all this pulse ER Ultra LB-X RAC crap. We just ripped our own
mech's arm off and beat each other with it (uphill in waist deep
snow both ways barefoot). Didn't have none of that fancy C3
stuff to help, no sir, we were tuff! Our idea of Mech launched
artillery was Two Atlas's throwing a Stinger at the enemy. (Look
ma, I'm a bird!!!)
Well, I'll get off my soapbox now and shuffle back to my
room. Having stewed prunes tonight! (Turns and starts to
shuffle away, mumbling something about "no good lazy upstart
whippersnappers")
Col. David "BlacKnight" Shell
532nd Highlanders' Division
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Damon Agretto
> Is there anyone else out there who plays with 3025 tech all the time? Any
> good Level I designs? Or am I a dying breed...
I'm one of those "3025" proponents. I've been playing Btech since the
2ED boxed set came out in '85-'86 or so...in fact, most of my Battletech
material (SBs and the like) are from the '80s, except for TR3050, which
is the most "up to date" book I have.
One of the things that first attracted me to the game was the setting
and the "Mad Max" feel of the game; that's the way it feels in the 2ed
boxed set. That didn't last for long, but by the 2nd half of the '80s
Btech peaked in terms of setting interest (IMHO). Gone was the straight
Mad Max feel, replaced by a sort of Dark Age run-down that wasn't
totally hopeless. Many 'mechs were 100+ years old, but new ones were
still being produced, and the average middle class family could easily
afford a brand new computer with 25-26th century level tech. I also
thought the setting was more gritty and "realistic" (except for the
rules warts!) and had infantry, armor and 'mechs working in concert. And
it all felt like a real military. That whole atmosphere was sort of lost
when the CLans came along, and an Inner Sphere that suffered 300+ years
of near continuous warfare was suddenly after a mere 10 years able to
produce new 'mech factories, hundreds of new designs, and even warships!
That sort of stretched the (what I call) Credibility Factor a bit.
Luckily for those who perfer the old tech, we have a whopping 104 years
of 3rd Succession War to revel in our low-tech filth!:)
As for some of the comments about strategy, I'd like to mention one of
my friends, who I got into this "Robotech Rip-off" (his words, but he
was singing a different tune later). His idea of a good game would be to
take any random uber-mech (usually an Atlas) and go out and pound each
other to scrap. When I play wargames, I like to pretend that those
little metal toy soldiers are REAL people, and that I'm fighting a REAL
battle. My justification has always been that I would someday be a
future US Army officer, and that's how I would fight real battles.
Unfortunately, I could never get my commision, but I still use the same
ideals. Of course this meant that if I sustained significant damage to
my units, I'd usually pull back, and he would whine about me not
"standing up and fighting." I originally cut my teeth on true RPGs, and
there's a lot of RPing that I intentionally inject into the game; things
like what would I do if I were really the pilot of that 'mech.
So, to sum up that last paragraph, you had those sorts of players in the
old rules too.
Finally, it would be nice if FASA supported fans such as myself for the
old setting. Never happen, I know, but it would keep me interested.
Anyone know about any good web sites dealing with Old-style Btech?
Should we form a league of 3025'ers?
Damon.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Damon Agretto
d...@early.com
"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: HiPM's SdKfz 231 6-rad PSW
------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Carletti
>good Level I designs? Or am I a dying breed...
I first felt that way, but I feel Level 2 adds to the game. When you
know the capabilities of every unit on the field backwards, where is
the element of surprise? No, it's much more interesting IMO to have to
worry about ECM, C3, ArrowIV, TAG...
--
Captain Brad "Digital" Carletti
Stuka pilot, 1st New Ivaarsen Chasseurs Air Wing, AFFS
David Stevens, Arboris Farmer's Militia,
BLR-2C CattleMaster pilot.
"Wee, dawggy! I shot them Liaos good!
Then I shot me some Feds! Dave's the man!"
Michael Duke
launched
> artillery was Two Atlas's throwing a Stinger at the enemy.
(Look
> ma, I'm a bird!!!)
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Tell me, what are the range mods, BV and damage of a thrown
Stinger ???
And does it get extra range if the Atlas's are on a L4 Ridge ???
Michael Duke
Peter La Casse
wrote:
><cra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8mbp7l$kug$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> The neurohelmet is dead! Long live DNI!
>
>Is it just me, or didn't we have this discussion about a month or two
>ago? DNI is great, until you realise that *ANY* hit on the battlemech
>causes Pilot Hits.
.... unless the mechwarrior is using the highly-addictive, psycho-
producing drug. Which leads to some great role-playing possibilities,
let me tell you. :)
It also has obvious applications in battle armor, where you're
probably not going to be able to survive 6 hits anyway.
Peter La Casse
Rob C
> >Is there anyone else out there who plays with 3025 tech all the time? Any
> >good Level I designs? Or am I a dying breed...
>
> I first felt that way, but I feel Level 2 adds to the game. When you
> know the capabilities of every unit on the field backwards, where is
> the element of surprise? No, it's much more interesting IMO to have to
> worry about ECM, C3, ArrowIV, TAG...
Are you out to out-equip your opponent... or to play
a chess game with him. I have problems with the arms-race
mentality I see on a lot of the board. Don't get me wrong
I LOVE a lot of maxtech and THB stuff for fun, but I have
problems with people who can't play without it.
I prefer the chess game... only with BT it's more interesting.
The dice throw in luck factor... and nothing is guaranteed.
Knowing the stats of every unit on the field is time-honoured.
And lets face it that kinda surprise is cheap. I'd rather
surprise him with tactics and deployment to keep him off
balance than... what's the mod of the week. It's more gratifying
to leave them wondering where in hell that rolling ambush got
setup... or how those units rolled his flank.
Davion3025
>> stuff to help, no sir, we were tuff! Our idea of Mech
>launched
>> artillery was Two Atlas's throwing a Stinger at the enemy.
>(Look
>> ma, I'm a bird!!!)
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHA
>
>Tell me, what are the range mods, BV and damage of a thrown
>Stinger ???
>
Range Mods are same as normal, with the Stinger traveling as far
as a Md. Laser. Damage was figured as if someone DFA'd with the
Stinger and added in 10 pts from the strength of the Atlas's
arms.
>And does it get extra range if the Atlas's are on a L4 Ridge ???
Nah, sucker don't want to fly very well as is. This "Stinger IV"
happened the same night someone got the big idea to line up
several Atlas's and mount a NPPC on their shoulder. Needless to
say, we weren't sticking to L2 rules, or L3 for that matter.
Figured up the heat after firing one shot and discovered that
every single Mech had just melted into a giant puddle of slag! ;)
ATN082268
>I first felt that way, but I feel Level 2 adds to the game. When you
>know the capabilities of every unit on the field backwards, where is
>the element of surprise? No, it's much more interesting IMO to have to
>worry about ECM, C3, ArrowIV, TAG...
>Brad Carletti guppy...@quakeclan.net
I also think that rules and technology other than what is found in 3025 (such
as Max Tech and Clan tech) adds to the game. What really matters is if you are
having fun playing the game. If a person clings to playing 3025 tech so they
can claim some warped moral and/or tactical superiority over those who don't,
then I would suggest that they rethink their position.
-ATN
Marshall Dragoo
munchkin any day of week, regardless of tech levels. Sticking to one era
is saying, "I have a comfort zone and I don't want to leave." If you
feel that way, fine. But the new weapons make the game faster and even
more tactical than before. Many of the new designs are not heat friendly
and you must always watch your rear arc for the faster mechs. New
weapons systems present new options, tactics, and concerns not seen in
3025.
DiamondShark404
rec.games.mecha (unread)
>Nowadays, you just get the strongest mechs you can find and line them up
>and beat the crud out of each other. Nobody cares where all the tech came
>from. Nobody stops fighting to save spare parts. Nobody retreats anymore
>at all it seems. They just throw mech
>of scrap metal, then clear the battlefield and send in another 3
>regiments. There's plenty being manufactured. There's new tech on the way
>to render all the old tech useless. The successor states wait while they
game, it's basically pick your mech, get it on the field, and it's shoot or be
shot -- indeed with the boxed rules, there's not much that can be done as
compared to L2 and L3 games. L1 games are more for MechForce tournaments.
They're quick so the tournaments can be played quickly and players can get
their ranks. They weren't designed for the patient strategic players, but more
on whoever gets the better dice rolls. The L3 books like tactical handbook and
mechwarrior rpg give more rules for campaigns.
>manufacture more mechs to blow up, instead of throwing half-repaired units
>into a dirt ball planet for little or no reason. I hope the whole tide
>turns and C3 units become as rare as LAMs were. Then that would be fun -
>you could imagine what it would be like trying to find spare parts for a
>broken c3 unit in the middle of Davion space on a raid.
If you people are so into salvaging and repairs and customs and logistics
and all that, then why do you limit yourselves to these L1 games. That's all
L1 is about, just fresh new fast games with new units. If you're that
advanced, then you should be playing with the L3 salvaging rules. All the time
you complain about not having your way could be used searching for a chatroom
with people who play with level 3.
> No, your not the only L1 die hard left but our kind is being
>replaced by kids who are addicted to instant gratification.
>They don't want to wait for results, but would rather see a mech
>fall after one or two rounds.
Using the boxed L1 rules, that's what players try for -- it's like i said
earlier, it's either move and shoot or be shot.
>They don't have the kind of
>patience it takes to play L1 anymore.
Actually, L1 doesn't take much patience, after all the mechs just move and
shoot. Again, as I've said earlier, L1 is for cheap fast games for MechForce
tournaments, not games that require planning and logistics.
>Ever wonder why it seems
>like all the new players want to play Clanners? Their addicted
>to success coming very easy and L1 is just to hard to win
>with.
> Think I'm crazy? Ever wonder why there are so many sites
>devoted to cheat codes? Instead of hammering away at a problem,
>they want to find the easy way out and cheat. It's the same
>story with our schools. They have been told that there is no
>right or wrong and so they see cheating as the fastest and
>easiest way to accomplish their goals.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason they use these cheat codes is
because they feel like they've been cheated? I remember when I got
MechCommander. I expected to be able to use just about any unit I'd like using
the BT rules and use it in the game. Rather, what I got was just a few mechs
and virtually no design program -- it was just swap ton for ton. In my mind I
felt i was the one who got cheated since i couldn't use my designs, so I used
the cheat codes to win. Before I bought the game, I designed 6 level 3 mechs
-- one was a 3025 tech that had like 4 AC/20s, I had some aerospace fighters
and hovercraft and a few vtols. I got mc and felt like I wasn't treated the
way a customer should be -- in that a customer can have a custom program that
can be edited, i felt like some trader. One thing I do like about the game is
its title -- it's upfront and tells you what to expect, just mechs are only
played with save for afew vehicles. My son likes mc because of the debriefing
officer. Like father, like son (when I was his age, I fancied an older gal who
became my wife!).
You need to read this: FASA published a book called the BattleTech Master
Rules (BMR). It has formulas for calculating the battle values of units. You
should read it, once you understand the formulas, you'll probably feel better.
L1, L2, and L3 rules have bv formulas for all their stuff, so no unit of the
same battle value will be superior to another, although i think those artillery
rules are quite unbalanced. I remember when I encountered a L3 mech. I just
had a few L1 mechs and I still beat it since our BVs were equal.
It seems to me what you're displeased about is that there is no continuity
between the games you and your opponents play. Since you seem to want more
advanced games, you should play with those who do play advanced games (like me
for example) rather than the simple L1 games. Let me give you some examples of
L3 playing as opposed to L1 playing.
In L3, you get rules for varying terrain, features, and weather like snow,
magma, jungle, ultra woods, fog, mud, winds, blizzards, rapid waters,
earthquakes, which enables players who live in varying locations to simulate
battles where they live. it's interesting when a an atlas or a thorn or a
cicada goes through a mud hex.
In L3, you get expanded critical hits like location -- no longer are
critical hits limited to the torso -- even the head can suffer a critical hit.
If your equipment has a minority of critical slots hit, then it might be able
to still function -- like a ppc or a laser.
In L3, you get double blind rules that have gamemasters and gamemistresses
inform players what units are in their LOS -- if they're not in LOS, you can't
see them. You also get equipment that can help you increase your initiative,
but in double blind games such equipment is virtually worthless since your
initiative won't matter if you don't know what your opponents are doing and
vice versa. Now, someone wanted to be an Army Officer and simulate such
battlefield conditions, in double blind games, you get that opportunity. You
can use sensors to scan a unit to determine one specific characteristic about
the unit which makes sensors more valuable, probes to get a unit's full specs,
and visual specs to see if that mech still has its arm or not.
In L3, you get expanded infantry rules that have them take morale checks if
they lose personnel, infantry can be engineers, bridge builders, they can
capture vehicles, but i think that they should let vehicles try to run over
infantry.
In L3, you get MechWarrior abilities to use like edge and pain resistance
(same as toughness), and bull's eye (like Zen focus).
In L2, you get the salvaging and repair and custom fit rules that were
copied from the L3 rules in MaxTech.
>I agree with the last poster. A good tactical player will beat a
>munchkin any day of week, regardless of >tech levels
I too agree with the former post. Keep in mind you all that a munchkin is
not one who utterly uses rules to one's advantage (that's called good gaming
which is what's expected -- players should still try to win), but rather is one
who prohibits the opposing player from knowing/doing the same and having a
fighting chance.
To sum up everything folks, if you want more logistics and strategy and
such out of BT, then you should use more Bt products (like bmr, maxtech,
tactical handbook, novels, mw adventures, etc.). Play with us L3 players and
you'll get to try out those games. Use all you can from all the products, else
you'll unbalance your game. And get a computer program to design your units,
even a spreadsheet will suffice. Finally, if you want players to limit with
your 3025 tech, how about playing with their 3060 tech in exchange. In all
your complaints, I didn't see one sentence of how either of you played on their
level. Now, if you're concerned that they won't play your game, then alternate
every 5 minutes played on each game so that they spend 5 min on your game and
you'll spend 5 min on theirs
Terry FitzSimons
go around.
<< ___ >>
Fights on, FFA, the =DO= requests the pleasure of the =TO= to come of
the TOC for the TOD brief. Alpha has point, Charlie has drag, Bravo
and Delta has slack, Hotel to all points left, Golf all points right.
On Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:27:45 GMT, DiamondShark404
<diamond...@aol.com> wrote:
> Actually, it's the L1 games that give out fresh new games and units. In a
> L1
>game, it's basically pick your mech, get it on the field, and it's shoot or be
>shot -- indeed with the boxed rules, there's not much that can be done as
>compared to L2 and L3 games. L1 games are more for MechForce tournaments.
Regardless of the level, you always start out with a fresh 'Mech,
unless of course the scenario hands you a damaged, ammo expended unit.
I think that you need to play more L1 games if you think that they are
quicker than L2 or 3 games. Since the 'Mechs are not often balanced
for heat, you have to pay better attention to the heat factors and the
probabilities of hitting the target, than you do with more heat
balanced 'Mechs. Which means, player experence not a factor, L1
battle will always be longer as you don't fire as often, than a
similar L2 or 3 battle will be.
Are you a MechForce member? If not, be advised that most tournaments
are level 1 and 2 setups, with time limits, otherwise there are
fights that would drag on. If you are, you must be new to the
tournament scene to make the mistaken statement above.
>They're quick so the tournaments can be played quickly and players can get
>their ranks. They weren't designed for the patient strategic players, but
>more
>on whoever gets the better dice rolls. The L3 books like tactical handbook
>and
>mechwarrior rpg give more rules for campaigns.
Tournaments usually have a lot of people to run through, so time
limits on a fight is expected. It should not take more than a hour,
two at most, to get ahead on the damage curve and show who is the
better tactical player. You want strategic playing, get a copy of
Succession Wars, you want campaigning, get MechWarrior RPG and knock
yourself out. You want to go mano-a-mano [1], its BattleMechs at 30
hexes and lets see who handles level one better.
> If you people are so into salvaging and repairs and customs and logistics
>and all that, then why do you limit yourselves to these L1 games. That's all
>L1 is about, just fresh new fast games with new units. If you're that
>advanced, then you should be playing with the L3 salvaging rules. All the
>time
>you complain about not having your way could be used searching for a chatroom
>with people who play with level 3.
As strange as it may be to you, you can do L1 with L3 rules. What are
we to do, generate our own salvaging rules, just because the L1 ones
are insufficient and we don't want to use L2 rules and equipment, so
we can't get to use the L3 rules that are palatable to us?
> Actually, L1 doesn't take much patience, after all the mechs just move and
>shoot. Again, as I've said earlier, L1 is for cheap fast games for MechForce
>tournaments, not games that require planning and logistics.
You definitely need to play more L1 games. You seem to be one of
those that were overlooked in the American Education System of Basic
BattleTech Training. You might want to consider some addition course
work on the basic systems and technology.
> Did it ever occur to you that the reason they use these cheat codes is
>because they feel like they've been cheated? I remember when I got
>MechCommander. I expected to be able to use just about any unit I'd like
>using
>the BT rules and use it in the game. Rather, what I got was just a few mechs
>and virtually no design program -- it was just swap ton for ton. In my mind I
>felt i was the one who got cheated since i couldn't use my designs, so I used
Surprise sucker. Its a computer game, not the board game. You may as
well get used to it. Whenever there is a extension of anything from
anything, it usually isn't the same as the original. The book and the
movie is never the same. The computer program and the book are never
the same. The board game and the computer game is never the same.
Piece of advice, don't get StarFleet Command, decide you like it and
get the board game version. The computer game version (I am told) is
a weaker version of the board game (IOW, it not fully implemented).
The Board game version of the rules fits in a three ring binder, a big
three inch D-Ring binder is what I have mine in, and I don't have all
of the rules, just the core set((s), it comes in two boxes and a
couple of supplements). By the way, just how old are you? I figured
the differences out a couple of years after I got out of High School.
> You need to read this: FASA published a book called the BattleTech Master
>Rules (BMR). It has formulas for calculating the battle values of units. You
>should read it, once you understand the formulas, you'll probably feel
>better.
>L1, L2, and L3 rules have bv formulas for all their stuff, so no unit of the
>same battle value will be superior to another, although i think those
>artillery
>rules are quite unbalanced. I remember when I encountered a L3 mech. I just
>had a few L1 mechs and I still beat it since our BVs were equal.
Must have been something wrong, then, oh yeah, forgot about luck. You
are lucky that I was not in the room, as I would have pulled out First
Strike and pointed to the section regarding uneven number fights.
Tell you what, you take what ever you want in 'Mech(s) and I'll take
the same BV in Savanna Masters. Straight up, no adjustments for
numbers in BV points. And I'll probably clean your clock. Just to
prove numbers do matter, you field a force of approximately 5200 BV
points, that gives me 33 Savanna Masters, the cheapest 'Mech I could
find was the ALM-7D Fireball at 289 BV, so you would end up with 18
'Mechs. That's 1.8 Savanna Masters to your Fireball, almost 2 to 1
odds. Take any 'Mech more expensive and the numbers gets worse. Lets
get munchy, Goshawk 2,243 BV; 3 'Mechs. That's 11 to one.
The only time BV fights are equal, is when the unit numbers are equal.
Does not matter if one side is all 'Mech and the other is combined
arms, all 'Mech, or all vehicle. If the number of units and the BV is
the same then its a fair fight and you have bragging rights. Any
other time and you get nailed with a clue-by-four.
> It seems to me what you're displeased about is that there is no
> continuity
>between the games you and your opponents play. Since you seem to want more
>advanced games, you should play with those who do play advanced games (like me
>for example) rather than the simple L1 games. Let me give you some examples
>of
>L3 playing as opposed to L1 playing.
Get a clue (and more experence), you can do all of that at the
RESTRICTED tech level 1, just like level 2, just not with the
equipment.
> I too agree with the former post. Keep in mind you all that a munchkin is
>not one who utterly uses rules to one's advantage (that's called good gaming
>which is what's expected -- players should still try to win), but rather is
>one
>who prohibits the opposing player from knowing/doing the same and having a
>fighting chance.
Perhaps in your neck of the woods, but not around here. One of the
definitions of the Munchkin is one that abuses the rules and
equipment, in an attempt to maximize their chances of winning,
minimizing their opponents chances and severely upset game balance, by
dragging in custom 'Mechs that have all their weaknesses removed and
their strengths reinforced.
It's one thing to drag in a Book L2 'Mech that will counter my Book L1
Missile boats in a stiff fight. Its another to drag in a custom L3
'Mech to counter my Book L1 Missile 'Mechs without working up a sweat.
> To sum up everything folks, if you want more logistics and strategy and
>such out of BT, then you should use more Bt products (like bmr, maxtech,
>tactical handbook, novels, mw adventures, etc.). Play with us L3 players and
>you'll get to try out those games. Use all you can from all the products,
>else
>you'll unbalance your game. And get a computer program to design your units,
>even a spreadsheet will suffice. Finally, if you want players to limit with
The more I think of it, the more I wonder if you even understand the
thread, much less the game
>your 3025 tech, how about playing with their 3060 tech in exchange. In all
>your complaints, I didn't see one sentence of how either of you played on
>their
>level. Now, if you're concerned that they won't play your game, then
>alternate
>every 5 minutes played on each game so that they spend 5 min on your game and
>you'll spend 5 min on theirs
Oh my, five minuets here, then five minuets over there, then here,
then there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here,
there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here,
there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here,
there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here, there, here,
there, here, there, here, there. That's about four hours of gaming.
I think I'm dizzy, definitely confused on what I am attempting to do
in either place.
[1] if mano-a-mano is man-to-man, what's man-to-woman? Mano-a-Femme?
--
Terry FitzSimons
TJFI...@GEETEL.NET (Small Letters Only)
CO 1-33rd Lyran Fusiliers
Combat Service Support
President of Vaporware Software
"The best software never published"
Join the local PETA group and celebrate being a member of
People for Eating Tasty Animals
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:21:42 -0500, paul_...@my-deja.com wrote:
"Hanse Davion is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. He makes
me shoot down CCAF troops in green pastures, he recons the enemy beside
quiet waters, he restores the Federated Commonwealth. He guides us with
pathfinders for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley
of the shadow of death, I will fear no Capellan, for the AFFC and his
mercenaries are with me; your AC and your Hatchet, they comfort me. You
prepare a secure LZ before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint
my head with oil; my ammo bin overflows. Surely victory and
pacification will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in
the house of the Fox forever. Amen."
Now man your DropShips. Next stop: Sian.
Matthew Furrow
> [1] if mano-a-mano is man-to-man, what's man-to-woman? Mano-a-Femme?
I think it's hand-to-hand, not man-to-man.
Matthew Furrow
mfurrow at mail dot md
Terry FitzSimons
Tell ya what, run your own tournament and see just how many people
like being surprised that way. There are some players that do
pre-plan their fights based on the known rules for tournaments, then
showing up for the tournament they get bushwhacked by the extended
movement table and a few other unbalancing rules is not for having a
good time. Plus all of their pre-planning just went down the toilet
and they have to start from scratch again to take them into account.
VoceNoctum
>> [1] if mano-a-mano is man-to-man, what's man-to-woman? Mano-a-Femme?
>
> I think it's hand-to-hand, not man-to-man.
"mono-a-mono" (though, I don't think it's actually "a")
one on one.
Vocenoctum
"I go, you go, we all go for Mi-Go!"
paul_...@my-deja.com
tjfi...@geetel.net wrote:
> Tell ya what, run your own tournament and see just how many people
> like being surprised that way.
As long as the rules are hashed in advance, well then that would be
fair...
There are some players that do
> pre-plan their fights based on the known rules for tournaments, then
> showing up for the tournament they get bushwhacked by the extended
> movement table and a few other unbalancing rules is not for having a
> good time.
Unacceptable, of course. Kind of reminds me of the "fog of war" from
a strategic/tactical aspect though.
Plus all of their pre-planning just went down the toilet
> and they have to start from scratch again to take them into account.
:-) A test to check their ability to plan on the fly. Remember
though the first casualty of contact is always the battle plan.
Paul
Stephen Tempest
>>> [1] if mano-a-mano is man-to-man, what's man-to-woman? Mano-a-Femme?
>> I think it's hand-to-hand, not man-to-man.
>"mono-a-mono" (though, I don't think it's actually "a")
>one on one.
I take it they don't have English-Spanish dictionaries where you all
come from? ;-)
mano = hand
mono = monkey (so "mono a mono" is "monkey to monkey")
hombre = man
mujer = woman
un = one
Stephen
Terry FitzSimons
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I take it they don't have English-Spanish dictionaries where you all
>come from? ;-)
Actually there is a living one, across the street, another next door,
one out the back door. But its easier asking here, than running door
to door and getting all of their opinions.
Paul Brown
JM wrote:
> 2) Since I haven't actually played with it I'm shooting wild here, but to
> me, this Lvl 3 tech seems awfully munchkin-y. Am I right? Any opinions?
Level three rules are good, level three equipment is not.
The rules expand upon a lot of stuff, like making vehicles much for
survivable and viable. I'd buy maxtech if I were you. It has expanded rules for
terrain, weather, repairing + modifying mechs and so forth. The rules make it
more than worthwhile.
Level 3 tech in my opinion is for the most part munchy, using devices which
are too expensive to be EVER used (XXL engines) or other overpowering weapons
which take away from the flavour of btech(Thunderbolt Launchers).
Personally, I'm an avid supporter of level 1 tech. With some tolerance to
early level 2 technology (anything including and before 3055). Personally I
hope
both the innersphere and clans fall into some huge fifth sucession war and blow
each other all back into the level 1 tech age.
Paul Brown
Here, here for Level 1. I started gaming a few years after the
clanners hit the market but I still like level 1 the best. We've just
bought MW 3rd ed and if I ever become GM it's back to the good old days
of level 1 tech.
My idea of a perfect campaign is an intimate one. With each
character growing attached to their mech. Wanting to preserve it, and
after the battle fighting over scraps of salvage to repair their mechs
that entered the battle with various problems to begin with. Mechs would
look like the good old sourcebooks like Sorenson's Sabres, a company of
mechs make up the PC's outfit. And almost all mechs had something wrong
with them. Whether it was just that their medium laser did an extra 2
points of heat, or their ammo bin was mangled and could only hold 6 out
of 20 rounds, or the mech had two patch worked (maxtech rules) engine
hits.
Where the unit would go up a combined light armor/infantry unit in
an urban setting and actually be afraid for their mechs. (speaking of
which, anyone notice almost no 3055+ mechs mount machine guns?) And
would have problems with their Marauder's new PPC because it's not a
Magna Hellstar but a Donal from a Warhammer instead. And the scout
lance, well, the scout lance would actually have the most common mech
ever, the Wasp. Or even stingers and Locusts!
Not just a pack of Fire Jenner. And most of the mechs in the company
would infact be Medium mechs, as it would be as their the workhorses.
Not loaded with 3 lances of Assault mechs, they would have 1 assault
mech at most. And the world would be full of the good ole Unseen mechs.
That's how it's gonna be if I ever get to GM the group baby! yeah!
Paul Brown
Damon Agretto wrote:
> Finally, it would be nice if FASA supported fans such as myself for the
> old setting. Never happen, I know, but it would keep me interested.
> Anyone know about any good web sites dealing with Old-style Btech?
> Should we form a league of 3025'ers?
I'd be happy if they released the odd book which added detail to the 3025
era. Have like a book which details with a cluster of planets and details them
a lot more with maps and so forth. Battletech has a crapload of planets but not
a whole lot of detail to each one.
Paul Brown
DiamondShark404 wrote:
> Actually, it's the L1 games that give out fresh new games and units. In
> a L1
> game, it's basically pick your mech, get it on the field, and it's shoot or
> be
> shot --
How is what you described any different from l2 or l3? The only
difference is
that with l2 you're shotting more and getting shot with more.
> They're quick so the tournaments can be played quickly and players can get
> their ranks. They weren't designed for the patient strategic players, but
> more
> on whoever gets the better dice rolls. The L3 books like tactical handbook
> and
> mechwarrior rpg give more rules for campaigns.
L1 battles are quick? Have you actually played a level 1 battle? I'm not
sure
about you but a Rifleman IIC that fires 4 Large Pulse Lasers every turn tends
to
end the battle quicker than a Rifleman firing two Ac/5 fives every turn and a
large
laser every other turn.
> If you people are so into salvaging and repairs and customs and logistics
> and all that, then why do you limit yourselves to these L1 games. That's all
> L1 is about, just fresh new fast games with new units.
Level 1 isnt about new units. It's about decades old units. That's the
point,
no new mechs have been produced. When you RPG level 1 tech, usually the only
way to
repair your medium laser is to rip it from the dead grasp of an enemy mech. In
3050+ times, if you need a new gyro you just go to the local MacDonalds and
pick
one up with a side of fries.
> If you're that
> advanced, then you should be playing with the L3 salvaging rules. All the
> time
> you complain about not having your way could be used searching for a chatroom
> with people who play with level 3.
We're talking about level 1 technology not level 1 rules. Level 3 salvage
rules
and modifying rules are fine, level 3 Streak LRMs are not fine.
> Using the boxed L1 rules, that's what players try for -- it's like i said
> earlier, it's either move and shoot or be shot.
We're not talking about level 1 rules, we're talking about level 1 tech.
> Before I bought the game, I designed 6 level 3 mechs
> -- one was a 3025 tech that had like 4 AC/20s,
Okay buddy, level 3 and 3025 dont mix.
> In L2, you get the salvaging and repair and custom fit rules that were
> copied from the L3 rules in MaxTech.
Again, we're talking about level 1 technology. Not level 1 rules.
Terry FitzSimons
wrote:
> Level three rules are good, level three equipment is not.
Actually some of the rules are good, but there are a few that stink,
like glance damage. It would have been better for 1/2 damage on the
to hit number, straight damage to the 11 roll and double damage on a
12, instead we have 1/2 and straight damage. Then there is the
careful stand rule, since it does not specifically state that you
ignore the leg damage modifiers, I have yet to find any one that wants
the enemy to leave them out.
> The rules expand upon a lot of stuff, like making vehicles much for
>survivable and viable. I'd buy maxtech if I were you. It has expanded rules
>for
>terrain, weather, repairing + modifying mechs and so forth. The rules make it
>more than worthwhile.
Those sections are definitely worth getting.
> Level 3 tech in my opinion is for the most part munchy, using devices
> which
>are too expensive to be EVER used (XXL engines) or other overpowering weapons
>which take away from the flavour of btech(Thunderbolt Launchers).
Sure they are way too expensive for a campaign, but otherwise its fun
to see just what you die from. And Thunderbolts come in real handy to
teach people to leave the AMS in their 'Mechs, maybe they don't worry
about the LRM-20, but they sure worry about the Thunderbolt-10/15/20
that's pointed at them.
> Personally, I'm an avid supporter of level 1 tech. With some tolerance to
>early level 2 technology (anything including and before 3055). Personally I
>hope both the innersphere and clans fall into some huge fifth sucession war
>and blow each other all back into the level 1 tech age.
Would be nice, but I doubt that it will happen.
Quentil
Paul Brown wrote in message <399C3144...@home.com>...
>
{snippage on a wide scale}
... And the scout
>lance, well, the scout lance would actually have the most common mech
>ever, the Wasp. Or even stingers and Locusts!
>Not just a pack of Fire Jenner. And most of the mechs in the company
>would infact be Medium mechs, as it would be as their the workhorses.
>Not loaded with 3 lances of Assault mechs, they would have 1 assault
>mech at most. And the world would be full of the good ole Unseen mechs.
>
> That's how it's gonna be if I ever get to GM the group baby! yeah!
Don't forget to add on a few things: Main targets would be water plants and
a lance of light mechs defending a planet was often viewed as enough. Heh.
I miss those times myself. But 3050 didn't bug me too much. And even 3060
seems reasonable to me in a lot of ways. But some of the means to get there
seem skewed. The storyline(s) the last few years, while I still like, seem
to make some odd leaps of faith. Nations seem to fall in love with each
other, then hate each other a year later with seemingly little reason.
Warships have appeared in huge numbers overnight. Every year, technology
makes 10 breakthroughs. HPGs can be operated by anyone with an atm card and
some bubble gum. Hmm, that one was a stretch.
Maybe ten years from now, this will be the "2nd golden age" or something.
Or maybe Clan Wolverine will come back with living ships, death stars, and
terminators and smack the hell out of both the IS/Periphery and the Clans.
But what do I know, I'm just a Periphery bum.
jdz.
Paul Brown
Quentil wrote:
> Don't forget to add on a few things: Main targets would be water plants and
> a lance of light mechs defending a planet was often viewed as enough. Heh.
> I miss those times myself. But 3050 didn't bug me too much. And even 3060
> seems reasonable to me in a lot of ways. But some of the means to get there
> seem skewed. The storyline(s) the last few years, while I still like, seem
> to make some odd leaps of faith. Nations seem to fall in love with each
> other, then hate each other a year later with seemingly little reason.
> Warships have appeared in huge numbers overnight. Every year, technology
> makes 10 breakthroughs. HPGs can be operated by anyone with an atm card and
> some bubble gum. Hmm, that one was a stretch.
I wish they had made a Level 2b tech. Level 2 tech in 3050 was fine, with
clan weaponary and a few assorted IS stuff. And now there's all of this other
crap which is suddenly level 2 like MRMs, Rotary ACs, Stealth systems and
whatnot. Max tech should have maybe been level X tech. And other stuff shoudl
have progressed with each new era. Level 1 is what, a dozen weapons? Level 2
was
a dozen new weaposn, but now it's like 4 dozen new weapons. Nutz.