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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99

[JCML] jcml-digest Wednesday, August 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 212

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| This edition contains the following topics:
|=======================================================
RE: : [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
[JCML] [TECH] Magsail research
Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
RE: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
Re: [JCML] UC
Re: [JCML] [CON] Another GenCon Comment (exhibit hall)
Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
Re: [JCML] UC
Re: [JCML] Arguments from players
Re: [JCML][long] So what would you like to see, for the future of JC
Re: [JCML] Arguments from players
Re: [JCML] Hello from Mars!
[JCML] Future of the JC Product Line
Re: [JCML][long] So what would you like to see, for the future of JC
[JCML] What's in the pipe?
RE: [JCML] Hello from Mars!
Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...
RE: [JCML] Re: Arguments from players
Re: [JCML] UC
Re: [JCML] UC
RE: [JCML] Arguments from players
Re: [JCML] UC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:03:29 +0100
From: "Gareth Martin" <gama...@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: : [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

> The best mecha anime are about people,
>

Perhaps I have not seen the good stuff, then. Most of what I have seen is
technofetishism, and it is usually the Special Weapon/Suit/Programme/Psychic
Powers/McGuffin that wins the day. This does not mean that I think there is
no human drama in anime - just that it is separate from actual conflict
resolution.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:17:38 EDT
From: JHF...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

In a message dated 8/25/99 4:04:45 AM, gama...@nortelnetworks.com wrote:
>> The best mecha anime are about people,
>Perhaps I have not seen the good stuff, then. Most of what I have seen is
>technofetishism, and it is usually the Special Weapon/Suit/Programme/Psychic
>Powers/McGuffin that wins the day.

Which ones have you seen?

- --
Julian Fong ----- jhf...@aol.com ------ http://jhfong.dragonfire.net/
00001000111110000100010000000011111111100001000100001111100010000
"I will chide no breather in the world but myself, against whom I know
most faults." - William Shakespeare, _As You Like It_, Act 3, Scene 2

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:56:21 EDT
From: JHF...@aol.com
Subject: [JCML] [TECH] Magsail research

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: "New spacecraft propulsion method could be out of this solar system"
From: Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
Date: Tue, 17 August 1999 12:13 AM EDT
Message-id: <37B8E15C...@alcyone.com>

University of Washington

FROM: Vince Stricherz, 206-543-2580, vin...@u.washington.edu

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Aug. 16, 1999

New spacecraft propulsion method could be out of this solar system

It sounds like a "droid" straight out of Star Wars. That's not a coincidence
because a new propulsion system dubbed M2P2 can greatly boost spacecraft
speeds, perhaps to 10 times the velocity of the space shuttle, University of
Washington scientists believe.

NASA's Institute for Advanced Concepts last week awarded a two-year,
$500,000 grant to a UW team headed by geophysicist Robert Winglee to
continue research on Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion. If laboratory
work and tests in space succeed, he hopes in 10 years to launch an
M2P2-equipped spacecraft that would become the first from Earth to
leave the Solar System.

That would be quite a feat, considering the craft would have to overtake
Voyager I, launched in 1977 and now about 6.8 billion miles away but still
within the solar system.

Winglee, an associate geophysics professor, has been working on M2P2 the
last nine months with geophysics professor George Parks and John Slough,
a research associate professor of aeronautics and astronautics. They are
developing a prototype and are preparing for tests in the UW's Redmond
Plasma Physics Laboratory.

Their system would use a plasma chamber about the size of a large pickle
jar, perhaps 10 inches by 10 inches, attached to a spacecraft. Solar cells
and solenoid coils would power theles
in radius around the spacecraft. The field would interact with and be
dragged by the solar wind.

Creating the field would be akin to raising a giant sail and harnessing the
solar wind, which moves at 780,000 to 1.8 million miles an hour -- or
"here to Washington, D.C., in 10 seconds," Winglee said. There is enough
power in the solar wind to move a 300-pound spacecraft at speeds up to
180,000 miles per hour or 4.3 million miles a day. By contrast, the space
shuttle travels at about 18,000 miles per hour or 430,000 miles a day.

At such speeds, an M2P2-equipped spacecraft launched today could
overtake Voyager I within eight years, despite Voyager's 22-year head
start.

The idea for M2P2 grew from the study of plasma jets forming around
young stars, and was formalized in a $75,000 startup grant from the
NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts.

The system has built-in advantages over solar sails, which are very large,
thin sheets of reflective material such as Mylar that can turn sunlight
into a propelling force. Solar sails are typically many times larger than
the spacecraft they propel and must be deployed mechanically. The M2P2
plasma chamber is far lighter and less bulky than sails. Just a few
kilowatts of power would support the magnetic field and only about
100 pounds of additional propellant would be required. Adding the device
to a spacecraft might cost $1 million, but it would provide substantial
cost savings for the overall mission and would provide easier access to
the planets and beyond, Winglee said.

M2P2 could be a major advancement in space travel, but it might be too
tame for two generations that have grown up with science-fiction
adventures such as Star Trek and Star Wars.

"It's amazing how many people say, 'That's not fast enough,'" Winglee said.
"People want to go to warp drive so they can get to the next solar system."

However, Star Trek's warp drive and the hyperdrive propulsion from Star
Wars, both of which can exceed light speed (186,000 miles per second in
a vacuum), are not possible under the current understanding of the laws
of physics.

For now, at least, plasma propulsion could prove to be the best option
to the science fiction propulsion systems. If tests on M2P2 succeed,
Winglee expects the system's first use in space will come on a mission
NASA already will have scheduled.

"If it works, we'll have some real fun then," he said.

###

For more information, contact:
Winglee at (206) 685-8160 or win...@geophys.washington.edu
Parks at (206) 543-0953 or pa...@geophys.washington.edu
Slough at (425) 881-7706 slo...@aa.washington.edu

Additional information is available via the Internet at
http://www.geophys.washington.edu/Space/SpaceModel/M2P2/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:11:48 -0400
From: "Christopher Weuve" <c...@wizard.net>
Subject: Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 4:59:26 AM, "Gareth Martin" <
gama...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote:

> Well, it all depends on why you bought the game. I didn't buy the game
> for the mecha - I bought it for the capital ships. To me, the mecha are
> the least insteresting aspect of the whole setting, so obviously the
> anime aesthetic just does not mean that much to me. Actually, I have
> always considered the mecha something of a sop to populism, but that is
> just my arrogance. As I said elsewhere, I have been waiting for a hard
> science game to come along for years and years and years - there've been
> mecha games around for a long time and I don't own any of them. JC
> finally gives me the opportunity to play the games of the kind of fiction
> I read.

This pretty much describes my motivation as well.

[CAVEAT: I don't generally do roleplaying any more; I buy JC more for the
interesting background. I *am* salivating at the thought of playing
_Lightning Strike_.]

chrisw

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:12:46 +0100
From: "Gareth Martin" <gama...@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

> Which ones have you seen?
>

Umm, lets see. Akira, one of the Urotsokodoji (sp?), Battletech and
Robotech if they count, Wings of Honimise (sp?), sundry others which I have
found on late night TV after they have started, and hence I do not know
their names. Oh, Legend Of The 5 Kings, I think, 3 parts or so. I also
watch a fair amount of Japanese and Chinese cinema, which I am very
impressed by. Although there are similarities in the two media, the cinema
is undoubtedly far more character- driven by comparison, IMO.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:30:36 -0400
From: "Zeas" <b1la...@yesic.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] UC

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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It's the wrong version of silhoute for Jovian.

Brian Laxson
Excellence is not a state, it is pursuit
- -=3D aka Hida Boniko, Brithor Blademaker, Mak'Tash=3D-
-----Original Message-----
From: R.J. Barrett <mut...@bigsky.net>
To: jc...@coffeehaus.com <jc...@coffeehaus.com>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 12:26 PM
Subject: [JCML] UC
=20
=20
Hello, all.
I'm new to the JC list, but have been on the HG list for a while. I =
downloaded Under Construction a couple of weeks ago and have used it to =
create sheets for several gears. Now my question is, does it work well =
for Exos as well. I tried working on one the other night, but stopped.
I know the weapon stats have to entered in by the user, but where do =
you put things like reaction mass.
Thanks, R.J.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>It's the wrong version of silhoute =
for=20
Jovian.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Brian Laxson<BR>Excellence is not a =
state, it is=20
pursuit<BR>-=3D aka Hida Boniko, Brithor Blademaker, =
Mak'Tash=3D-</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>R.J. Barrett <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:mut...@bigsky.net">mut...@bigsky.net</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jc...@coffeehaus.com">jc...@coffeehaus.com</A> <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:jc...@coffeehaus.com">jc...@coffeehaus.com</A>><BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Monday, August 23, 1999 12:26 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>[JCML]=20
UC<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Hello, all.</DIV>
<DIV>I'm new to the JC list, but have been on the HG list for a =
while. I=20
downloaded Under Construction a couple of weeks ago and have used it =
to=20
create sheets for several gears. Now my question is, does it work =
well for=20
Exos as well. I tried working on one the other night, but =
stopped.</DIV>
<DIV>I know the weapon stats have to entered in by the user, but =
where do=20
you put things like reaction mass.</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks, R.J.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:05:49 -0400
From: "Zeas" <b1la...@yesic.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] [CON] Another GenCon Comment (exhibit hall)

>I'm sure that if the vendors wanted the exhibit hall to be open longer
hours,
>it would be.

I was working for one of those vendors at Gencon... we had no input on the
matter what so ever.

We arrived late in the evening on the first day... althougth we had someone
come earlier in the day to register us... they had resold our booth to
another company. It took some haggling from our owner to arrange for an
alternative booth as they were NOT going to give us another.

The games were badly disorganized. The ASSIGNED tables were reassigned
bumping everything to other rooms... where I found out the reassigned tables
was ALREADY in use from another reassignment.

I prefer the cons run by university and college students over what this
"professional" Andon does.

Brian Laxson
Excellence is not a state, it is pursuit
- -= aka Hida Boniko, Brithor Blademaker, Mak'Tash=-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:25:57 EDT
From: Prin...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

I would have quoted, but I had deleted the first message before I recieved
the second :). Anyhow!

Some anime that show mecha as an extention of the human useing it, and are
good anime stories about what it means to be a person are: The whole run of
BubbleGun Crisis. Ive got it all on DVD and cant recommend it enough.
Patlobor, Ive dredged up 3 movies in this series, but I think it was a weekly
series for a while in Japan. Ghost in the Shell. 'Nuff said there. The whole
Macross run is also excellent.

Anyway, these are all good examples of the human spirit prevailing over
adversity with the help of mecha, all the while listening to bad 80's music.
:)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:27:32 EDT
From: Prin...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JCML] UC

b1la...@yesic.com writes:
<< It's the wrong version of silhoute for Jovian. >>

Yes, in another rather 'odd' display of favoritism DP9 hasnt put the JC
Construction SYstem on theyre web page, so you have to buy the JC Companion
to get ahold of a copy.

Another example of short end of the stick here. :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:37:59 -0400
From: "Brigitte et Mario" <pro...@netrevolution.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] Arguments from players

Hello

- -----Message d'origine-----
De : Gareth Martin <gama...@nortelnetworks.com>
À : jc...@coffeehaus.dyndns.com <jc...@coffeehaus.dyndns.com>
Date : mercredi 25 août 1999 04:36
Objet : RE: [JCML] Arguments from players

>
>> the plasma lance. Why? Imagine that you can take a knife, swim
>> alongside a battleship, and gut the hull... Exos, being much more
>
>Which is exactly why I, as a capital ship commander, would make damn
certain
>no exo ever matched vector with me or my squadron. Theydon;t carry enough
>fuel to change velocity enough to get the kind of time-on-target this
>reuqires.

This is not a problems in my game (house rule for BP by Hours)
so an EXO's and a Fighter can have a few hours of thrust...

>
>> maneuverable than fighters, should have a much easier time with that
>
>Why?
>

Well first it a Giant Robot game ! so the EXO are better then anything
else in the Universe... as a weapon platform ^_~

But you, If you don't like Exo its okay, sure you will win any argument
of Fighter Vs Exo, cause exo don't exist so it only speculation...
But please Mr. Martin its a Game and ppl in JC love EXO.
so don't try to convict us that we are wrung to use Exo. ^_^

Quote:There is only two kind's of spy; the sneaky and the dead...
****************************************************************************
**
ID : Mario Thériault ICQ #
7841635
aka : Prophet Master of : HG, JC,
NODE : pro...@netrevolution.com T8, AD&D...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:44:22 -0500
From: Justin Bacon <tr...@prairie.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML][long] So what would you like to see, for the future of JC

Scott Jenks wrote:

> What I don't get is why settle Venus and Mercury in the first place? I
> guess there is some psycological benifet to "having your own planet" but it
> seems like a lot of work to live where the ground is melting under you and
> it rains sulfuric acid. Hollowing out a big asteroid seems so much easier.

But once the terraformation of Venus is complete, you've got a base every bit as
secure and open to development as Earth is -- if not moreso. It's not to that
point yet, but it will be someday.

As for Mercury, I believe the idea was mineral exploitation.

> As far as Pluto goes if you have to depend on solar power, forget it. With
> fusion power it's doable but you better like being by yourself, since you
> are a zillion miles from anywhere else.

Not to mention the distances involved once you get out past Jupiter. You get out
past Jupiter and the distances to the inner worlds becomes enormous (Saturn is
as far from Jupiter as Jupiter is from Mars, and the distances get worse from
there).

Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:59:32 -0500
From: Justin Bacon <tr...@prairie.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] Arguments from players

[ I'm going to piggyback here. Apologies to all. ]

> > As far as Gears go - which are the 'pinacle' of fighting vehicles -
> > he argues that larger tank-like vehicles with more hull-down capability
> > and higher armor values and stealth capabilities and sensor suites would
> > be the more logical development over large humanoid targets. I know the
> > usual arguments that: Gears are more maneuverable and can carry 'more'
> > weapons, much like a large soldier; Gears are more versatile, etc.

How many times does the Pod have to put in their products "Gears are not the
pinnacle of fighting vehicles" and "Gears are not the gods of the battlefield"
and "Gears will get their asses handed to them if they go up against tanks"
before they are actually believed?

Gears are not the "pinnacle" of fighting vehicles -- they are powered suits of
armor designed to give you a souped up infantry. In a head-to-head fight a tank
will blow a gear out of the water -- tanks are bigger, they have better weapons
(and more of them), and they have thicker armor.

That being said, there are few advantages gears have over tanks -- first, they
can stand up, they can crouch, they can lay down. That's a nice ability to have
on a battlefield. They are smaller than tanks, and thus can go places tanks
cannot. They can effectively engage and perform guerilla tactics in city
environments -- DOMINION TANK POLICE aside, tanks stink at this.

> > But let's take that a step farther and look at Exo's. Now, in space,
> > the only reason to have mecha like that is to look cool: let's be
> > honest!:) And as far as I'm concerned, that's more than enough, being born
> > and raised on Japanime.:) But, for Mr. Hard-Liner, obviously it isn't.
> > Sure, manipulator arms are cool, but you can mount those on just about
> > anything.

In space the ultimate single-person fighter is a small globe across the surface
of which you sprinkle thrusters and weapons -- you can shoot and accelerate in
any direction at the drop of a pin.

That being said, there are many uses of exo-armors. First, they can land on and
in space craft, colonies, etc. and perform well. They have manipulative hands,
allowing for easy weapon exchange and a plethora of interaction with the
environment around them.

You might want to note that neither Gears nor Exo-Armors are the *only* vehicles
of war available in these settings -- they are merely part of a much larger,
balanced military machine. These complaints of "gears/exo-armors aren't great at
everything" or "gears/exo-armors aren't great at X" are just silly -- it's like
saying that missiles and rockets shouldn't be developed, just bigger guns.

> > Sure, the frame is supposed to be more responsive to the pilot's
> > body motions and such throwing it about, but you can make arguments about
> > direct neural feeds that might be superior to those...

Oh, right. So now we're dealing with fictional technology and it's impossible
that humanoid limitations would exist on cyberlinkage a neural net systems (or
whatever corny technobabble term you want to use for it).

This, however, is another good explanation for why these machines might exist
(although in JC the cyberlinkage system is still extremely experimental). Thanks
for bringing it up.

> > now imagine a
> > combination of the two and you've really got something...but I digress.:)
> > In space, the only reason to make a ship look cool is, frankly, to look
> > cool.:) Bodies that spin for gravity and such don't need vicious looking
> > prows or even discernable fore and aft sections, or readily identifiable
> > bridges, or things of this nature.

You've lost me.

1. I'm looking at my blueprint files here (as well as the pictures in the core
rulebook) and I just don't see "identifiable bridges" -- although once inside
there is, logically, a bridge from which the ship is controlled.
2. No need for discernible fore and aft sections? Would the discernible
differences be, oh, where the engines are?
3. "Vicious looking prows?" First, you're underrating the psychological nature
of war machines (there's no need for modern tanks to look all mean and vicious,
either -- they could easily soften those edges up a bit and paint them in happy
colors). Second, I just don't see what you're talking about. There are just as
many "plain, ordinary prows" (with "prow" basically being whatever's on the
opposite end from the engine) as there are "vicious looking prows".

If you're friend doesn't want to accept mecha, then he isn't going to. He's
probably the same type of person who whines during games where FTL is present,
as well. There are arguments for why FTL might be possible. There are arguments
for why mecha might be useful war machines. End of story.

Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:02:11 -0500
From: Justin Bacon <tr...@prairie.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] Hello from Mars!

Gareth Martin wrote:

> I would expect that any civilisation capable of travelling interstellar
> distances would find crushing humanity trivially easy. A kinetic bomb
> travelling at 99%c and about the size of a bus would pretty much kill the
> planet. If we had an early warning station on Pluto, the projectile would
> arrive 8 seconds after the warning arrived.

This, of course, assumes that:

1. You want to wipe out humanity.
2. You want to wipe out the planet.

Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:25:38 -0500
From: Justin Bacon <tr...@prairie.lakes.com>
Subject: [JCML] Future of the JC Product Line

I thought of something else I'd like to see (long-term): Historical
OVAs. Unification War, the Odyssey, early colonization efforts, Martian
War for Independence, Martian Civil War, bunch of other stuff.

Of course, I want the same thing for HG, too.

Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:37:50 EDT
From: Prin...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JCML][long] So what would you like to see, for the future of JC

tr...@prairie.lakes.com writes:
<< (Saturn is as far from Jupiter as Jupiter is from Mars, and the distances
get worse from there). >>

Thats why Saturn space is the perfect place for Edict breaking experiments to
be done, onboard large Lab/Contaiment ships. :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:07:56 -0700
From: Paul Wilcox <pwi...@avatarnumedia.com>
Subject: [JCML] What's in the pipe?

I've seen the DP9 'wish list' for products they are interested in
developing, but other than Lightning Strike (which if I remember correctly,
isn't mentioned on the wish list) what else is actually in the works right
now (ie. authors contracted, art team drawing, table of contents in
development, etc.)?

- --Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:32:57 +0100
From: "Gareth Martin" <gama...@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: [JCML] Hello from Mars!

> This, of course, assumes that:
>
> 1. You want to wipe out humanity.
> 2. You want to wipe out the planet.
>

Granted. I was just trying to illustrate the fighting interstellar wars is
probably going to be a whole lot different if you have interstellar
technology. You could launch this projectile from Alpha Cenauri and just
hang around for 5 years or so.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:32:23 -0700
From: Paul Wilcox <pwi...@avatarnumedia.com>
Subject: Re: [JCML] Are most fans into the Hard Science aspects...

>I just get this feeling that most players on the list are into the hard
>sceince side of the Jovian Chronicles setting, is this true, I eman I am not
>against Hard SF, but isn't my cup or tea either. I rather enjoy the game
>because o the Exos, being a Macross fan through and through, they are my
>first love.

I keep vacilating.

JC initially attracted me by the spaceships. And not just the military
vehicles, although those are amazing, but also the more common, less
glamorous vessels like the cargo cariers. I can't wait for the book that
details these more 'everyday' ships!

And along those same lines, the hard science and near future aspects are
just as attractive. Not in a galaxy far, far away but right here (and
almost right now) in our own back yard. A place where radiation matters,
where it takes months to travel between planets, where people live in
lighter gravities because the only way to get any approximation of 1G in
areas where huge populations live is to rotate a structure. These bright,
beautiful dreams of glittering colonies and propulsion systems feel
tantalizingly close in JC. I've often considered playing without the exos,
just using the ships, fighters, and transports.

And then I watched the new release of Gundam 83. Gundam reminded me that
exos (and giant, piloted humanoid fighting vehicles in general) are really
a storytelling alegory for humanity's will. Here is the perfect human form,
projected on a vast scale, and capable of nimble space flight and amazing
damage. The ultimate realization of humanity in space; each one a giant,
moving statue commemorating our ability to push our boundries further and
further...

...even if they are kind of silly as military machines. Spheres are much
more effecient, they just don't look as cool.

So make a choice as you design your game: ultra-hard science fiction, or
human alegory. The hard science will challenge your players' imaginations
to dream the real dreams of the human race. The human alegory will look
like really, really cool anime!

- --Paul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:27:05 +0100
From: Richard Conroy <richard...@norkom.com>
Subject: RE: [JCML] Re: Arguments from players

> > It depends on what you define by 'surface'. For an exo, Vesta
> > and Ceres, the remaining martian moon, countless belt asteroids,

> So add a couple of grapples to the fighters belly, a rotating
> turret on the top, and away you go.

You are adding stuff to an existing fighter to jury-rig it for
a specific role. An EXO, with humaniform mobility, would still
have an element of maneuvre while in contact with a surface,
unlike the fighter you so described, which is really only
acting as static artillery.

>
> > strike and close air support roles, with regular ground troops
> > doing the dirty work, wouldn't adding EXO units make the force
> > even stronger ? Units that could be aerospace or terrestrial as
>
> No. Tanks require infantry and artillery support.

I never said that those assets weren't present, (and I still think
that having military EXOs among your force gives you strategic
advantages in terms of flexibility) but in many JC circumstances,
standard terrestrial troops would be difficult to bring to bear.

Artillery can be
> provided by fighters and other tanks, but infantry are
> mandatory. This role
> is fulfilled by exo-suits, which easily muscle up a human to handle
> tank-killing weaponry, and can operate as bounce infantry,
> are environment
> sealed, can hide behind rocks, etc etc. That requirement is already
> fulfilled.

But they can't function as airpower, and infantry have a very limited
air supply in just about every theatre of JC besides earth.

That actually might be a more broad justification for EXOs, that
conventional units would perform poorly on planets that they were
not designed for, and the logistics involved in conducting an
aerospacial invasion with significant amounts of conventional troops
would be horrific, and the resupply would be worse. You can't win
a war with airpower alone, and you need to be able to loiter on
a battlezone. So you build a humaniform EXO unit with very high
combat role flexibility (all planetary bodies) flight capable for
strategic mobility, extended range and duration (significant
unassisted travel distances and good life support) and effective
in defense.

> On the battlefield, an Exo is basically a walking
> building.
> It's far, far too big and most of it is height - which makes
> it a sitting
> duck - or standing duck. I saw an interview with a war
> reporter a while
> ago, and he said "The problem with trying to film battles is
> that as much of
> it as possible is invisible." Hugging the ground is a
> survival mechanism
> which exos cannot do and continue to fight. Any force with
> an exo attached
> is immediately visible to their opponents, who are going to
> be hiding as
> best they can. Do you really want to go into battle
> accompanied by a giant
> who permanently gives away your position?

You are assuming that battles stay the same in the JC universe,
which is valid in an earth scenario, but not really any other
planetary body. Couple that with the point I made above, about
conventional units being too difficult to use effectively in
all environments, and too expensive to maintain, and a need
evolves for more flexible, multi-role, higher quality (in terms
of durability and loadout) combat vehicles. Even basic infantry
have to go into suits on anything except earth, big bulky
pressure suits with power supplies and extensive life support.
They start to show up on sensors with all that EM activity
and metal.

<snip>

> True, but I doubt most space battles will be fought in this
> environment, for
> exactly the reasons you describe. And if you must strike
> such a target, do
> so from range, drop a torpedo and let it coast in under the
> momentum you
> gave it, and only switch on the drives and weapons once it is within
> striking distance. You'll be gone before it hits.

Which is strategic warfare - destruction of large capital assets
like industrial centres (vivarium cylinders) with all the ugly
baggage that comes with it (huge civilian casualties). You don't
have tactical precision - picking off the military targets among
the civilian. You need to get close to do that.

> > Which costs/risks would those be ? besides the usual problems of
> > maintaining a large standing military. Costwise, I can't imagine
>
> Copnstyructing articulated arms and legs is inherently mmore
> complictaed
> than a cylindrical hull with few or no moving parts.

Fighters would have significant moving parts in the form of
vectored thrust engines and retros for maneuvreability.

> The
> logistics must be
> nightmarish - joint lubricant, 1001 specially shaped parts,
> wear and tear,
> replacement ballbearings, etc.

This society can create huge engineering works like skyhooks,
vivariums and orbital mass drivers, not to mention large
spacegoing vessels that can survive half a gee for months on end.

Any technology that assists durability and component lifetime
already exists. Special robotic actuators and control systems
have been in existence in civilian applications for decades in
this universe.

> This articulation is an unnecessarily
> complicated solution to the question 'how do I attach myself
> to a surface'.

But thats not the purpose - you are not developing this level of
articulation for a single purpose, but for general purpose,
including purposes that you haven't anticipated. An EXO can
perform pilot rescues in the heat of battle, can be an
improvised tug in a pinch, perform emergency salvage or theft,
has the flexibility to support your pilots personal initiative,
and even with all weapons spent it's flexibility makes it still
a military asset, unlike a fighter which is merely another
bogey to distract from the fighters that still have weapons left.

> Introducing this level of mechanical complexity must make exos more
> expensive and harder to maintain than a comparatively simple
> fighter.

Fighters pull more gees, and travel faster, making them more vulnerable
to debris. I don't think that simplicity of construction on paper
translates into simplicity of mainteneance in any combat vehicle. They
pretty much all need loads of babysitting.

aLl
> of the benefits of mass production you describe would also,
> of course, apply
> to fighters.

I don't deny that, but I don't agree that EXOs would cost N-fold
more than a fighter of equivalent technology, 50% more ? Yeah
maybe, but it never boils down to a decision between Fighters
OR EXOs. You still need both, so you buy both.

> > an EXO being significantly more expensive than a fighter. After
> > all, EXOs are likely quite prevalent in Civilian industries and
> > operations like Emergency Services, Construction (biggie),
> > Exploration, Maintenance (of colonies), Mining (another biggie),
>
> Exo SUITS yes.

No you would need large construction rigs with articulate limbs
capable of grasping and exerting power on objects through limb
movement alone.

> > Bear in mind that I was answering the original poster, as to why
> > military EXOs would even exist in a hard-sf environment. I
> > certainly wasn't proposing that fighters or alternative
> > comparable weapon systems would be rendered obsolete by EXOs.
>
> A fair point. Tell you what - I'll build a fighter combat
> docrine for CEGA,
> you build an Exo doctrine for the JAF :)

LOL!

But seriously, you have hit on something there. CEGA have EXOs to
counter an equivalent vehicle in the JAF. The JAF have them because
they need the flexibility of an EXO, and conventional units (i.e.
standard troops tanks and non spacegoing stuff) have no
applicability outside a terrestrial invasion.

It's probably as much a culture thing as a technology thing.
Theres probably more Jovian civilian EXO pilots than ship
pilots. CEGA has come through this massive war dominated by
troops planes ships and various wheeled/tracked vehicles,
where the environment is constant (G, weather, aerodynamics,
breathable atmosphere).

> > Interesting enough thread, a friend of mine is thinking of
> > running a few JC games and is trying to establish his standing
> > on the existence of EXOs. This stuff is useful.
>
> Yeah - at the very least, you can co-opt my argument as that
> of the old fogey generals who are fighting the last war. It could be
true.

Its good for mindsets anyway. If anything, we wouldn't be EXO/fighter
pilots,
or members of any significant military organisation. Those kind of campaigns
tend to chafe in any setting.

Richard.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pierre Bourque <pbou...@wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JCML] UC

On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 Prin...@aol.com wrote:

> b1la...@yesic.com writes:
> << It's the wrong version of silhoute for Jovian. >>
>
> Yes, in another rather 'odd' display of favoritism DP9 hasnt put the JC
> Construction SYstem on theyre web page, so you have to buy the JC Companion
> to get ahold of a copy.

Actually, the reason why the HG Construction system is on the webpage is
because the construction system was removed from the 2nd edition Rulebook,
and wasn't reproduced until the much-more-recent HG Techbook 2. Since the
1st Ed rulebook is no longer available, there were lots of people who were
annoyed they didn't have access to the construction rules until Tech2 was
published. So that's why the JC Construction System's not on the webpage.
Not any form of favoritism.

To tell you the truth, I'm surprised there's no favoritism the other way
- -- Jovian Chronicles was the V-Man's Big Thing... In fact, if you check
the Vman's page, it's mostly JC- or Space Stuff-centered...

> Another example of short end of the stick here. :)

There's lots of other good reasons to get the JC Compendium, besides the
construction rules, especially if you're into the RPG-side of things --
and not even necessarily RPGing in the Jovian Chronicles setting. I
myself have adapted the majority of the JCC rules into my Silhouette
Cyberpunk setting...

Pierre

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:19:02 EDT
From: Prin...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JCML] UC

pbou...@wsunix.wsu.edu writes:
<< There's lots of other good reasons to get the JC Compendium, besides the
construction rules>>
I agree, its a very well put togather book. I just think that if they arnt
going to support the Jovian line with the reason that "It doesnt sell as
well", than they should make it as accessable to the players as HG is. I know
at least 4 of the people that game at the same store that I do who chose HG
over JC because HG has way more material in print. Most JC fans own every
book, with the exception of maybe the Mech Catalogues.

<< adapted the majority of the JCC rules into my Silhouette
Cyberpunk setting... >>

You dont happen to have a site with all your Silhouette Cyberpunk stuff on
it, do you? If so, than I believe you were the inspiration for the latest
chapter in my ongoing "Anti-Madscientist" JC game, where I used the hacking
rules as a "Remote EXO Operation" system. Heh :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:15:47 -0400
From: Frank Moody <Frank...@SDInc.com>
Subject: RE: [JCML] Arguments from players

At 09:16 25/08/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> the plasma lance. Why? Imagine that you can take a knife, swim
>> alongside a battleship, and gut the hull... Exos, being much more
>
>Which is exactly why I, as a capital ship commander, would make damn certain
>no exo ever matched vector with me or my squadron. Theydon;t carry enough
>fuel to change velocity enough to get the kind of time-on-target this
>reuqires.

Which is why you have carriers.. And targets.. *grin*

>> maneuverable than fighters, should have a much easier time with that
>
>Why?

I think he is referring to not having to use reaction mass to stay in and
about a ship..

Brains

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pierre Bourque <pbou...@wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JCML] UC

On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 Prin...@aol.com wrote:

> pbou...@wsunix.wsu.edu writes:
> << There's lots of other good reasons to get the JC Compendium, besides the
> construction rules>>

> I agree, its a very well put togather book. I just think that if they arnt
> going to support the Jovian line with the reason that "It doesnt sell as
> well", than they should make it as accessable to the players as HG is. I know
> at least 4 of the people that game at the same store that I do who chose HG
> over JC because HG has way more material in print. Most JC fans own every
> book, with the exception of maybe the Mech Catalogues.

Hm, perhaps true... But that's also because HG has also been on the
market nearly twice as long as HG... 1st Ed. HGRB was printed in either 94
or 95, IIRC, and the JCRB didn't see print til 97. So HG had quite the
starting advantage over JC. But, I would probably agree there's a bit of
a disparity between the number of HG and JC books available... So
probably what happened is that HG took all the market share for the genre
(Big Robo Bashin' Action). Compare to Tribe 8 (DP9's other RPG), which
has almost as many books out as JC, and it's only been out half as long.
Presumably this is because the two different games have so different a
target audience.

Anyway, that's probably all that should be said about the semantics and
theory about DP9 publishing strategy for this ML...

(Sides, I'd hate to get thwapped for off-topicness..)

> << adapted the majority of the JCC rules into my Silhouette
> Cyberpunk setting... >>
>
> You dont happen to have a site with all your Silhouette Cyberpunk stuff on
> it, do you? If so, than I believe you were the inspiration for the latest
> chapter in my ongoing "Anti-Madscientist" JC game, where I used the hacking
> rules as a "Remote EXO Operation" system. Heh :)

Course, here's where it gets back on-topic...:)

Yes, I do have a Silhouette Cyberpunk webpage, though I haven't updated it
since I moved to the UofA. However, I haven't gotten around to posting
any other hacking rules beyond what's in the Companion. The current
iteration is mostly weapons and vehicles... I hope to eventually get
around to putting up some of the alternate rules I've been toying with as
well as some canned adventures...

So if you /did/ find some hacking rules for Sil online, I'd love to know
where...:) I'm interested in them myself...

Pierre

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