WUMT discussion: A term to represent 4 rounds
Cofa Tsui
tried and retired to be a jonga.
In CMCR a completion of 4 rounds is called "JU" (pinyin), and WUMT
recommends the term BREAK (sort # 0.1.04).
I am not aware of any *widely accepted* English term for this use.
Any comments or suggestions please?
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Julian Bradfield
Cofa Tsui <I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com> wrote:
>A ROUND is a completion of a number of games in which all 4 players have
>tried and retired to be a jonga.
>I am not aware of any *widely accepted* English term for this use.
>Any comments or suggestions please?
A game is four rounds, each of which typically comprises four hands.
This terminology seems not uncommon, though as you say not universal,
and is consistent with the use of the term "hand" in card games such
as bridge.
Cofa Tsui
news:e49eon$493$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <V8U9g.163739$P01.101552@pd7tw3no>,
> Cofa Tsui <I...@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com> wrote:
> A game is four rounds, each of which typically comprises four hands.
>
> This terminology seems not uncommon, though as you say not universal,
> and is consistent with the use of the term "hand" in card games such
> as bridge.
Thanks Julian,
A hand (of cards) in porker or bridge is significantly simple when compares
to a hand in mahjong. And a hand (of playing process) is significantly short
when compares to a "hand" in mahjong. Therefore, I think it is beneficial
(and even necessary) to have different terms to represent a hand of pais and
a hand of playing process in mahjong.
My understanding is people will settle payments (or scores) at the end of a
game (the "process"), similar to one having to insert coin in a TV game
machine upon game over. Hence I use game as a complete playing process in
mahjong. What do you think?
Four rounds in mahjong is a long time. Sometimes it could even be the whole
event or gathering, hence it is seldom used among even Chinese players. In
CMCR four rounds are collectively called "ju" but "ju" can also represent
the whole event ("when a.specified time is reached"). I just think that it
is better to have two different terms for an "event" and for "four rounds"
collectively. Any suggestions or comments please?
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
John (Zi Rong) Low
I like this one the most, 4 Wind rounds, with 4 hands in each one. Yes,
a "hand" in mahjong is longer than in poker or bridge, but it still
makes sense because a bunch of people are dealt out ONE hand and take
turns playing tricks/making bets etc.
Not all games are of the same length. In 4 player Canasta (card game
similar to mahjong), each hand is called a "Hand", even though it lasts
longer than poker or Bridge. Nobody complains about it being called
"hand", because each person is dealt out a bunch of cards at the start,
and takes turns drawing and discarding, exactly like mahjong.
If you were to say a hand in mahjong is so long that it needs a new
name, then you would have to apply the same concept to Canasta, Renju
(connect 5 on a Go board), Go, Backgammon etc. It will be even more
confusing because people will have to figure out the length of a game
before justifying calling it a name.
Cofa Tsui
news:1147761530....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >A game is four rounds, each of which typically comprises four hands.
>
> I like this one the most, 4 Wind rounds, with 4 hands in each one. Yes,
> a "hand" in mahjong is longer than in poker or bridge, but it still
> makes sense because a bunch of people are dealt out ONE hand and take
> turns playing tricks/making bets etc.
Do you mean one term "hand" to represent both "hand of pais" and "hand of
the playing process" is good enough? This might be "widely accepted" in the
English terminology but it certainly doesn't fit in the terminology of the
Chinese tradition of mahjong.
>
> Not all games are of the same length. In 4 player Canasta (card game
> similar to mahjong), each hand is called a "Hand", even though it lasts
> longer than poker or Bridge. Nobody complains about it being called
> "hand", because each person is dealt out a bunch of cards at the start,
> and takes turns drawing and discarding, exactly like mahjong.
>
> If you were to say a hand in mahjong is so long that it needs a new
> name, then you would have to apply the same concept to Canasta, Renju
> (connect 5 on a Go board), Go, Backgammon etc. It will be even more
> confusing because people will have to figure out the length of a game
> before justifying calling it a name.
>
But why should there be confusion if you don't apply terminology of one game
type in other game type? I have no intention of influencing other game
types, but I do think it is beneficial (and even necessary) to have
different terms to represent a "hand of pais" and a "hand of playing
process" in mahjong.
Have a look of the following story:
"Only one hand can win a hand. In last Saturday's event every player was
devoted to making every hand a great hand and therefore there were many
hands that were great and exceptional! Many hands were played great and many
hands were not won. And you can't imagine among the five hands of the
highest scores I'd played three of them!"
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
ithinc
Can "Set" be adopted to represent the four rounds? Or one hand? It's
often used in competition sports.
Tina Christensen
following terminology was used:
The tournament has seven SESSIONS of 90 minutes in which maximally 4
ROUNDS (named for the four winds), each consisting of 4 HANDS, will be
played. A full GAME is therefore 16 hands.
I think this a very useful terminology.
Tina
d_...@my-deja.com
> Do you mean one term "hand" to represent both "hand of pais" and "hand of
> the playing process" is good enough? This might be "widely accepted" in the
> English terminology but it certainly doesn't fit in the terminology of the
> Chinese tradition of mahjong.
Cofa, what is this "hand of pais" and "hand of the playing process"
that you kept referring to? Can you define your terminology for us so
we can understand you. Your terms are not "widely accepted" and
therefore not well understood. So every time you use a specific new
term, you must define it precisely for the rest of us who are used to
the "widely accepted" English terms.
As for the terms "hand", and "round", these are common Chinese terms
used to describe the game of mahjong and the English terms are just the
direct translation of the Chinese ones. For example (in Chinese): "The
last hand I was going for all circles" or "Let's play four rounds of
mahjong". I see nothing wrong with using the translated Chinese terms
and I don't think a new (invented) term is necessary here.
Cofa Tsui
> Cofa Tsui wrote:
> > Do you mean one term "hand" to represent both "hand of pais" and "hand of
> > the playing process" is good enough? This might be "widely accepted" in the
> > English terminology but it certainly doesn't fit in the terminology of the
> > Chinese tradition of mahjong.
>
> Cofa, what is this "hand of pais" and "hand of the playing process"
> that you kept referring to? Can you define your terminology for us so
> we can understand you. Your terms are not "widely accepted" and
> therefore not well understood. So every time you use a specific new
> term, you must define it precisely for the rest of us who are used to
> the "widely accepted" English terms.
Hi D,
"Hand of pais" refers to the hand of each player (one shall normally
have 13 or 14 pais in a hand, you know).
"Hand of the playing process" refers to the process from pais are being
dealt to the four players until no more pai can be drawn from the wall
- This is called a "game" in the WUMT Table (sort # 0.1.02). The WUMT
Table (PDF) is located at:
http://www.imahjong.com/imjc_WUMTerminology060513.pdf
>
> As for the terms "hand", and "round", these are common Chinese terms
> used to describe the game of mahjong and the English terms are just the
> direct translation of the Chinese ones. For example (in Chinese): "The
> last hand I was going for all circles" or "Let's play four rounds of
> mahjong". I see nothing wrong with using the translated Chinese terms
> and I don't think a new (invented) term is necessary here.
"Hand" and "round" are common in Chinese terminology. It is also common
in Chinese terminology to have a separate term for "hand of the playing
process", although it is common in English terminology that it is mixed
up with the "hand of pais".
Although it is very common to call "4 rounds", "8 rounds" in Chinese
terminology, this topic is querying if there is a need of a term
representing "4 rounds".
Cheers!
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Cofa Tsui
Hi Tina,
Do you mean:
Session = Game
1 session/game = 4 rounds = at least 16 hands
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
d_...@my-deja.com
Cofa Tsui wrote:
> d_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Cofa Tsui wrote:
> > > Do you mean one term "hand" to represent both "hand of pais" and "hand of
> > > the playing process" is good enough? This might be "widely accepted" in the
> > > English terminology but it certainly doesn't fit in the terminology of the
> > > Chinese tradition of mahjong.
> >
> > Cofa, what is this "hand of pais" and "hand of the playing process"
> > that you kept referring to? Can you define your terminology for us so
> > we can understand you. Your terms are not "widely accepted" and
> > therefore not well understood. So every time you use a specific new
> > term, you must define it precisely for the rest of us who are used to
> > the "widely accepted" English terms.
>
> Hi D,
>
> "Hand of pais" refers to the hand of each player (one shall normally
> have 13 or 14 pais in a hand, you know).
>
> "Hand of the playing process" refers to the process from pais are being
> dealt to the four players until no more pai can be drawn from the wall
> - This is called a "game" in the WUMT Table (sort # 0.1.02). The WUMT
> Table (PDF) is located at:
> http://www.imahjong.com/imjc_WUMTerminology060513.pdf
>From the above WUMT table, it says (I've converted it to the "widely
accepted" English terms): hand: collective term of all tiles dealt to a
player, hand of tiles. So it appears we are all talking about the same
thing: a "hand" is a "hand" which is well understood by even the WUMT
person. :-) So I still don't understand why you keep making such a
big deal of the term "hand".
> > As for the terms "hand", and "round", these are common Chinese terms
> > used to describe the game of mahjong and the English terms are just the
> > direct translation of the Chinese ones. For example (in Chinese): "The
> > last hand I was going for all circles" or "Let's play four rounds of
> > mahjong". I see nothing wrong with using the translated Chinese terms
> > and I don't think a new (invented) term is necessary here.
>
> "Hand" and "round" are common in Chinese terminology. It is also common
> in Chinese terminology to have a separate term for "hand of the playing
> process", although it is common in English terminology that it is mixed
> up with the "hand of pais".
>
> Although it is very common to call "4 rounds", "8 rounds" in Chinese
> terminology, this topic is querying if there is a need of a term
> representing "4 rounds".
>
> Cheers!
>
> Cofa Tsui
> www.iMahjong.com
In other words, we agree there is no need to invent another term beyong
the "widely accepted" English terms we already have. :-) But when you
say "It is also common in Chinese terminology to have a separate term
for ...", what are these terms? In your table, there was only one
reference to "手牌".
Cofa Tsui
> Cofa Tsui wrote:
> > http://www.imahjong.com/imjc_WUMTerminology060513.pdf
>
> >From the above WUMT table, it says (I've converted it to the "widely
> accepted" English terms): hand: collective term of all tiles dealt to a
> player, hand of tiles. So it appears we are all talking about the same
> thing: a "hand" is a "hand" which is well understood by even the WUMT
> person. :-) So I still don't understand why you keep making such a
> big deal of the term "hand".
[...]
> In other words, we agree there is no need to invent another term beyong
> the "widely accepted" English terms we already have. :-) But when you
> say "It is also common in Chinese terminology to have a separate term
> for ...", what are these terms? In your table, there was only one
> reference to "手牌".
You've missed the other term "game" (or "pan" in pinyin, sort # 0.1.02
in the WUMT Table), which refers to the playing process. For this, the
"widely accepted" English term is also "hand", or none is used.
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
J. R. Fitch
pung vs. pong - A slight difference in tone and spelling. COMJ
documentation uses "pung". I would vote for "pong" but no one seems to
mind either way.
kung vs. kong - As above.
thrower - Not an elegant term. Discarder might be better. Both are
popular and both acceptable.
East - In COMJ the East player has no special role other than going
first. So why not just say "East". Simple and more accurate than saying
"banker" or "dealer".
hand (1) - The 13 or 14 tiles a player possesses
(2) - The process from dealing to winning (or running out of tiles)
So, you are holding a hand, and you are playing a hand. It's dual
usage, but logically so.
round - A single rotation of the Seat Wind
(always 4 hands in COMJ, possibly more in other variants)
game - 4 completed Rounds
session - (tournaments only) 4 Rounds or 90 minutes, whichever comes
first
These are the terms which, in my experience, are being used by
English-speakers and they don't seem to be generating controversy.
--
J. R. Fitch
Nine Dragons Software
San Francisco, CA USA
http://www.ninedragons.com
d_...@my-deja.com
Cofa Tsui wrote:
> You've missed the other term "game" (or "pan" in pinyin, sort # 0.1.02
> in the WUMT Table), which refers to the playing process. For this, the
> "widely accepted" English term is also "hand", or none is used.
Ahhhh... Yet another term that is not "widely accepted". What you
call a "game" is what most people call a "hand". What most people mean
by a "game" is four-rounds of MJ (there is also the related term
"event", which is either a complete "game" or a fixed time limit has
expired, whichever comes first).
Cofa Tsui
J. R. Fitch wrote:
> In summary, If I've read the thread thoroughly:
>
[...]
>
> thrower - Not an elegant term. Discarder might be better. Both are
> popular and both acceptable.
... but could be confusing. How do you call someone who discards but
does not cause a win? (Well, this could be a puzzle to a new comer.)
>
> East - In COMJ the East player has no special role other than going
> first. So why not just say "East". Simple and more accurate than saying
> "banker" or "dealer".
The reason you have with COMJ is also why I think using "banker" or
"dealer" is not perfect. However, using "east" could be confusing (very
much so to new comers in particular). "East" could also be a pai East,
or the term of a round. In Chinese terminology, "east" is not used to
refer to the jonga (dealer, banker, etc).
>
> hand (1) - The 13 or 14 tiles a player possesses
> (2) - The process from dealing to winning (or running out of tiles)
> So, you are holding a hand, and you are playing a hand. It's dual
> usage, but logically so.
I just noted the 3rd common use: - The pattern or combination of pais
that carrying scores (called "score element" in CMCR) ^_^
Again, same comments as for "thrower" and "east": could be confusing,
especially to new comers.
>
> round - A single rotation of the Seat Wind
> (always 4 hands in COMJ, possibly more in other variants)
>
> game - 4 completed Rounds
>
> session - (tournaments only) 4 Rounds or 90 minutes, whichever comes
> first
This could be an assembly if used that don't seem to cause confusions
(again, keep those new comers in mind). Let's consider the following:
- A "collective term" for 4 rounds doesn't seem to exist in both
Chinese and English terminology. Do we really need one? (WUMT Table,
sort # 0.1.04)
- Event/session/game (WUMT Table, sort # 0.1.01): "Session" is for
tournaments only - I agree, it sounds too formal. "Game" seems to be a
good choice: short and simple compared to "event". But if "game" is
used for this purpose, how about for the purpose of a "hand" (the
playing process, sort # 0.1.02)?
> These are the terms which, in my experience, are being used by
> English-speakers and they don't seem to be generating controversy.
That's true! I, however, just think that it could be even nicer if the
use *will not* cause confusion at all (again, especially for new
comers). You know, "controversy" does not exist if it is not known. And
the purpose of the World Unified Mahjong Terminology is to help the
East and West understand each other better, and to get new comers get
onboard easier. (Note: WUMT Table can be found online at:
http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives209.html)
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Cofa Tsui
...and these are in the current English terminology system, where a
"unified list" does not exist, and where confusions can be found...
You might found those "widely accepted" English terms perfect, and
those confusions don't even exist. It is not the case for new comers to
mahjong, and for most Chinese-speaking mahjong players who try to meet
the world but rely solely on written references.
In addition, "widely accepted" by the mouth is one thing, if it is to
be put on a list (i.e., in writing), it is bound to see big differences
among those experienced! The purpose of the World Unified Mahjong
Terminology and of the discussions is to find the acceptable standards
out of those differences.
The choice is for us, including you and me, who are experienced in the
game, to either continue to ignore the differences for decades or even
centuries to come, or to fix the problems now so that the games of
mahjong could be developed easier, especially for new comers.
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Tina Christensen
> Tina Christensen wrote:
> > The tournament has seven SESSIONS of 90 minutes in which maximally 4
> > ROUNDS (named for the four winds), each consisting of 4 HANDS, will be
> > played. A full GAME is therefore 16 hands.
> Do you mean:
> Session = Game
> 1 session/game = 4 rounds = at least 16 hands
No.
A game is 4 rounds (16 hands).
A session is 90 minutes.
In a session a maximum of 4 rounds (16 hands) are played. It is very
possible that time runs out before 16 hands are played. In Europe often
only 9-12 hands are played in a session because of the time limit.
Ideally, though, a full game (of 16 hands) is played in each session.
Tina
d_...@my-deja.com
Cofa Tsui wrote:
> d_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Cofa Tsui wrote:
> > > You've missed the other term "game" (or "pan" in pinyin, sort # 0.1.02
> > > in the WUMT Table), which refers to the playing process. For this, the
> > > "widely accepted" English term is also "hand", or none is used.
> >
> > Ahhhh... Yet another term that is not "widely accepted". What you
> > call a "game" is what most people call a "hand". What most people mean
> > by a "game" is four-rounds of MJ (there is also the related term
> > "event", which is either a complete "game" or a fixed time limit has
> > expired, whichever comes first).
>
> ...and these are in the current English terminology system, where a
> "unified list" does not exist, and where confusions can be found...
Cofa, I just followed one of your links in another thread to this page
in your web site (http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives208.html) and I
noticed this:
QUOTE
第十条
Article 10
一. 盘的计分
1. Scoring of a hand
UNQUOTE
So I guess even you translated "pan" as a "hand" at one time.
Cofa Tsui
news:1148575457....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Cofa, I just followed one of your links in another thread to this page
in your web site (http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives208.html) and I
noticed this:
QUOTE
???
Article 10
?. ????
1. Scoring of a hand
UNQUOTE
So I guess even you translated "pan" as a "hand" at one time.
Good work, D! But I guess that's a problem mostly not of mine ^_^
CMCR says "scoring of pan" which is obviously incorrect ("pan" = hand of
playing process). I was too concentrated in the right issue, which was
translating the "scoring of a hand (of pais)", to note this incorrectness of
CMCR.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Cofa Tsui
Hello All,
Thanks to those who have participated in the discussions. I have posted
a new version of WUMT Table (Version 060610) at:
http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives209.html
Changes made to reflect the discussions include the following:
- "Game" remains unchanged, to represent the playing process.
- "Hand" remains unchanged, to represent the pais of a player.
- "Four rounds" (and its multiple) is used to represent four rounds (or
its multiple).
The WUMT Table is available for use by all - Comments and suggestions
for improvement are always welcome.
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com