1861 Diary w/ mahjong
pa...@email.unc.edu
http://v.cctv.com/html/xintansuo/2008/09/xintansuo_300_20080923_1.shtml
What I found most interesting was the mention of an 1861 diary by
British Consul Frederick (FEB) Harvey in Ningbo that apparently
mentions being taught the game of mahjong (sparrow) by Chen Yumen (the
broadcast mentions that Chen learned English as part of his
education). Apparently the diary just gives dispersed references to
mahjong and is not an attempt to detail the rules, history, etc, but I
would love to know specifically what it does say. Has anyone on this
forum seen the material from that diary? Is a copy of the material
located at the Japanese Mahjong Museum?
Dan
kon...@gmail.com
> A recent cctv9 broadcast featured mahjong. It can be viewed here:http://v.cctv.com/html/xintansuo/2008/09/xintansuo_300_20080923_1.shtml
>
> What I found most interesting was the mention of an 1861 diary by
> British Consul Frederick (FEB) Harvey in Ningbo that apparently
> mentions being taught the game of mahjong (sparrow) by Chen Yumen
That's really exciting news! Thanks for the heads-up, Dan!
Tom
pa...@email.unc.edu
broadcast that I received from the contact that alerted me about the
broadcast:
Noguchi Kyouichiro, the founder of the world's first Mahjong museum in
Chibe, Japan - visited Ningbo Mahjong museum in Septemebr 2001, and
brought with him the diary of the British Consul General, FEB Harvey,
who was stationed at Ningbo in 1861. Harvey's dairy frequently refers
to Mahjong as 'Sparrow', and he repeatedly mentions all the rules of
the game. He also mentions that his Chinese teacher, from whom he
learned Mahjong, was named Chen Yumen. Chen Yumen's life is recorded
int he Chinese book entitled 'History of the Ying Shan County', which
says that he passed the imperial exam (third class) in 1849, and was
positioned at Ningbo. He could speak some English, and taught Harvey
how to play Mahjong.
This is verified at the Ningbo Mahjong museum - called Tianyu Library
- by Gong Feihui, the Deputy Chief of the Academic Research Committee.
Dan
msta...@talktalk.net
Hello Dan. Thanks for this 'heads up'. Both Thierry and myself
researched Harvey way back in 2003. We managed to get some info from
the Foreign Office but there was no mention of a diary so its
existence is a big plus. We are now trying to find if the diary is in
the public domain.
I am trying to contact the MJ Museum to see if I can get photocopies
of the relevant pages.
I viewed the programme at the link provided. Some interersting titbits
of information in there - particularly the references to the presence
of possible evidence (Harvey) from which we may glean useful
information and inferences - when we can get our hands on it to see if
it is as robust as it sounds.
al
Mahjong Movie History on CCTY
As I see it, the Symbol-based story is unrelated to mahjong rules of
play, similar mistake as my sparrow theme. It seems funny. I made the
exact mistake when I wrote a commemorative poem for the bird. The CCTV
presentation concluded with words from a Chinese poem representative
of mahjong components. Simple minds think alike or what?
This is interesting. Chen Yumen is for real according to Ningpo
history. He taught Harvey the game and Harvey recorded rules of play.
The fact no mention made of the origin indicates to me that Chen was
not the inventor of mahjong, although he knew the game and he spoke
some English. Inference drawn from this is that Mahjong had been in
existence before Chen Yumen.
Ma Diao was mentioned in the story and the TRIGRAM was said as symbol
in the suit(s). That corresponds with my observation and analysis. I
am not surprised. Recently I found from reading the Illustrated Book
of the Mahjong Museum; ma daio has two suits, the TAIJI circles suit
and the bamboo slips suit, have TRIGRAMS as shown on page 55. I will
have more to say about ma daio later in a separate post.
The game can have 2 to 3 million combinations / permutations. The
program said. This fits the description that Mahjong is a game of
"CHANGES". I see that as a correlation with the Book of Changes, even
though I do not know what the accurate number of possible 3-some
combinations might be. However pattern forming requiring combinations
and permutations is a distinguished feature of Mahjong.
On the question of MJ origin, I would say Chinese fishing boats in the
18th or 19th century were not that big to be stable enough at sea for
mahjong game. Fishermen in those days did not have leisure hours to
waste either. The notion that the game might have been invented or
popularized to meet a need is not credible in my view.
Culturally, gambling is socially disdained and from time to time in
Chinese history, legally banned. Chinese symbols for mahjong are 筒索万
or 萬. The game had to be reclassified as competitive game without
money in play. Ordinary players call the symbols by their local
folklore and oral tradition. In my part of China Cash for the circle
is a term people never use. I did not notice if it was mentioned in
the video or not. By the way, Circle in the movie story represents
shots fired at the sparrows, yet it was called 筒.
Bird's legs for 索 is as strange as 'strings of cash'.
Anyways, the "supposition" lacks depth because it is based totally on
superficial interpretation of symbols.
Thanks for posting the link.
+++++++++
Cheers..al
ithinc
> A recent cctv9 broadcast featured mahjong. It can be viewed here:http://v.cctv.com/html/xintansuo/2008/09/xintansuo_300_20080923_1.shtml
A valuable clue! Thank you, Dan.
al
I also found interesting is the story on the Ye-Zi [葉 子] game.
Ye-Zi or "Leaf" Little Leaves] had been told as a game named for a
piece of paper used for score keeping. The basis for that was Ye = 葉
which could be a tree leaf or a page or a piece paper.
In the CCTV presentation, the word 葉 is shown with 3 parts, namely:
++ at the top,
世 at the middle and
木 wood or tree at the bottom...
++ means ten and ten or twenty,
世 means generation(s) and
木 means a tree...
葉 was, as the story went, the name of a game. That game was given to
Emperor Taizong of the Tang dynasty. It contains an answer to his
question. The question was "how long a dynasty lasts?" The answer was
twenty generations but hidden in the name of the game.
So according to the broadcast story of CCTV, 葉 is more than a piece of
paper for score keeping as previously written elsewhere.
+++++++++++++++
Even more interesting is the mention of other "tile games" besides the
Liu Bo which was already in existence in 221 B.C. The fact is tile
games came long before paper cards.
Liu Bo was a simple tile game where 2 players cast dice to determine
how many steps to move ahead. The faster player wins. Other tiles
games were more challenging than Liu Bo according to the narrative.
However, I could not find from the CCTV story how the Leaf game was
played. I am not sure if it was a solid tile game or paper-card game.
Any one has the answers?
+++++++++++++
Cheers....al
pa...@email.unc.edu
I really cannot follow your presentations concerning the possibility
of a connection between mahjong and the Yijing. Because of that, I am
really not able to respond to your posts. However, I’ll make this one
attempt to illustrate why I am unable to follow your presentations. I
am only connected to the internet at work, so I do not have the time
to enter a prolonged back and forth with you, but perhaps this one
post will suffice.
I view your Yijing idea with the same skepticism that I use for the
poem and sparrow ideas presented in the broadcast (and the other
sparrow idea presented by you; the Taiping idea presented by myself;
etc.). I do not start with the premise that the Yijing idea is
correct, whereas much of your discussion seems to be predicated on it.
With those points in mind, let’s look at your latest post:
On Oct 14, 8:00 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Even more interesting is the mention of other "tile games" besides the
> Liu Bo which was already in existence in 221 B.C. The fact is tile
> games came long before paper cards.
I do not follow why one or more tile games existing prior to the first
paper cards has any importance to mahjong. Are you trying to say that
if some tile game existed prior to paper cards, then mahjong (a tile
game) must also have existed before money cards (paper card games)? If
so, then that is simply using erroneous logic! Not all tile games were
invented at the same time; some were invented before paper cards, but
others were invented after paper cards! I have no idea what you were
trying to convey in your post!
You seem to want to show that mahjong tiles did not evolve from paper
money cards, perhaps because you do not like the idea that the symbols
on the tiles may have originally relate to money rather than to Yijing
symbols. You therefore seem to have adapted the assumptions that 1)
mahjong tiles preceded money cards, &/or 2) mahjong was invented
totally independent of other existing games, &/or 3) mahjong must be
older than is indicated by current information, &/or 4) the early
writings, especially by Westerners writing about mahjong using money
derived terminology, were misunderstandings of Chinese pronunciations,
&/or …
To me, none of those assumptions has any substantive supporting
evidence. Other than possibly fitting your hypothesis better, I have
not seen any evidence to support the ideas presented in your postings.
Without addressing specifics of your other posts, I hope that you can
see from the above why I cannot follow what you are trying to present.
Truly bewildered,
Dan
al
Thanks for taking the time to point out where work is needed.
Your feedback is appreciated.
++++++++++
Cheers....al
al
> Al,
>
> I really cannot follow your presentations concerning the possibility
> of a connection between mahjong and the Yijing. Because of that, I am
> really not able to respond to your posts.
Dan, I did not try to show the connection between MJ & I-Ching
(Yijing) in my previous post.
Are you making reference to other posts?
[..]
>
> I view your Yijing idea with the same skepticism that I use for the
> poem and sparrow ideas presented in the broadcast (and the other
> sparrow idea presented by you; the Taiping idea presented by myself;
Viewing with skepticism is justified in any case. The "same"
skepticism may not be always practiced or practicable. Like, I mean
not every hypothesis created equal. Right?
> etc.). I do not start with the premise that the Yijing idea is
> correct, whereas much of your discussion seems to be predicated on it.
>
I did. So are many other hypotheses. Relationships show up in
correlative comparative studies. Chinese cosmology and Chinese
medicine are based on correlative thinking since ancient time.
Correlative thinking should aptly apply to I-Ching and mahjong.
> With those points in mind, let’s look at your latest post:
>
> On Oct 14, 8:00 am, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Even more interesting is the mention of other "tile games" besides the
> > Liu Bo which was already in existence in 221 B.C. The fact is tile
> > games came long before paper cards.
>
> I do not follow why one or more tile games existing prior to the first
> paper cards has any importance to mahjong. Are you trying to say that
> if some tile game existed prior to paper cards, then mahjong (a tile
> game) must also have existed before money cards (paper card games)? If
> so, then that is simply using erroneous logic! Not all tile games were
> invented at the same time; some were invented before paper cards, but
> others were invented after paper cards! I have no idea what you were
> trying to convey in your post!
>
Yes. I tried to suggest the possibility that Mahjong being a bone-tile
game could have been invented long before paper was ever made. Bones
were there before paper and knife was used before pen.
> You seem to want to show that mahjong tiles did not evolve from paper [money]
Yes. I have shown that, as I said repeatedly, "Cash is not Cash; Mouse
is not Mouse" for comparison. Also I referred to the following link
many times.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/iching_symbols.html
> money cards, perhaps because you do not like the idea that the symbols
> on the tiles may have originally relate to money rather than to Yijing [symbols]
It's not that I don't like the money "idea". But rather it is because
the money "idea" does not fit the game. The money symbols do not
explain the game-play of mahjong and it leaves out the whole suit of
tiles that have meaningful words engraved on them.
Even in science, when a hypothesis cannot explain the experimental
results then it has the wrong assumptions, wrong method or wrong
tests. In case of mahjong, I dare say money-suited symbol is a wrong
assumption.
> symbols. You therefore seem to have adapted the assumptions that 1)
> mahjong tiles preceded money cards, &/or 2) mahjong was invented
> totally independent of other existing [games],
Mahjong could have preceded money cards and it did not have to
necessarily copy money symbols from other games.
> &/or 3) mahjong must be
> older than is indicated by current information, &/or 4) the early
> writings, especially by Westerners writing about mahjong using money
> derived terminology, were misunderstandings of Chinese pronunciations,
> &/or …
>
Mahjong could be older than current literature indicates. Age of
mahjong is still uncertain, As I pointed out. diamond was found only
about 5000 years ago. Is diamond only 5000 years old?
Even the Chinese people themselves didn't know what the symbols were.
Those symbols were called by many different names in many different
places. Westerners repeated what they heard. and added their
interpretation some time. That is a fact. There is question about the
names of the game even now.
> To me, none of those assumptions has any substantive supporting
> evidence. Other than possibly fitting your hypothesis better, I have
If it fits my hypothesis better, then it can only mean that my
hypothesis is better than the money-suited hypothesis. My hypothesis
rejects the money-base hypothesis.
> not seen any evidence to support the ideas presented in your postings.
> Without addressing specifics of your other posts, I hope that you can
> see from the above why I cannot follow what you are trying to present.
>
I may misunderstand what you mean by evidence, Dan. Do you really mean
some one's prior writing saying about a connection between Mahjong and
I-Ching?
If that is what you mean, then you may not find any such so called
evidence. My idea is new and as Tom called it, apophenic.
I have mentioned the correlation numerous times. I have also said how
symbols are unreliable because artists added many of their own,
including fish and fowl.
Analyze the game-play. You need a pair of "eye" to win. Without the
eyes, a hand is no-win. The significance of a pair is like the yin-
yang duo in I-Ching, metaphorically.
How about the combination of 3's. Not every game has that feature. But
3 is an important number in I-Ching. A trigram is a figure of 3 lines
and a trigram is a symbol for a natural phenomenon. 8 trigrams
arranged in an octagon is called Bagua which represents "ten-thousand
things".
Seasonal cycle and wind directions and colors (green, red and white)
are all aspects of cosmology in Daoism. Daoism was very much
influenced by I-Ching, the Book of Changes.
Talking about changes, I would say the game mahjong is all about
changes. Philosophically, that is the strongest link. The winds change
from the start. Winds change as the result of seasons change. When
seasons change, everything changes in ancient time when natural forces
were in total control of "ten-thousand" and everything.
Here is another item of correlation. The symbol "wan" is not a finite
quantity of ten thousand. Not only it's out of proportion to 1-Cash,
one-tenth of one cent in monetary term, it is a figure of speech in
Dao de Jing, book by the Daoist master himself. Take a look at Chapter
42. Also refer to aspects of cosmology in any book on Daoism.
> Truly bewildered,
> Dan
++++++++++
I hope this helps.
Let me give one more explanation in Mahjong game-play and show how
that correlates with I-Ching concept. The rule is you cannot have a
run of ZHONG-FA-BAI, or East-South-West. The principle behind the rule
is this. Wind directions and zhong-fa-bai are time sensitive elements/
aspects of cosmology. They correspond with the seasons, spring,
summer, autumn and winter. 3 different seasons can not occur at the
same time.
This is oriental correlative thinking...
+++++++++++
Allan Lee
al
> On Oct 14, 2:11 pm, pa...@email.unc.edu wrote:
>
> > Al,
> > I really cannot follow your presentations concerning the possibility
++++++++
Dan, I should follow up with an explanation in response to your
remark.
> [..]
> > To me, none of those assumptions has any substantive supporting
> > evidence. Other than possibly fitting
> > your hypothesis better,
I am surprised to learn that.
> If it fits my hypothesis better, then it can only mean that my
> hypothesis is better than the money-suited hypothesis. [..]
>
Is that right? By the way, what do you see in the money-base
hypothesis as strong evidence that has you convinced of its validity?
> > {I have] not seen any evidence to support the ideas presented in your postings.
> > Without addressing specifics of your other posts, I hope that you can
> > see from the above why I cannot follow what you are trying to present.
>
Not sure what other posts you are referring to in particular, Dan.
Have you read this one of November, 2008? Let me copy part of my
lengthy post for your review.
> +++++++++++++++++
Matiao (Ma Diao) has been said by some historians as a "progenitor"
of mahjong. This is what is shown on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum, a 1999 Japanese publication. What is interesting
here is the fact that a Matiao card-set has a whole suit of Tai-Chi or
Taiji diagrams 1 to 9.
The description below the Matiao (Ma Diao) card set on page 55 is as
follow:
"[Photo 78: top right] wood block. Eight signs of divination are
written on the lower indices of Coins and Strings. The heroes of the
story Sankuochih are written on the Myriad. [Photo 79: top left] Cards
printed by the above printing block." Quote-unquot...
Three suits of cards in the Matiao (Ma Diao) set. One suit has 1 to 9
筒. This suit has the "Eight-Sign", 八卦 bā guà, printed on the 1-筒. The
筒 suit is represented by the taiji (tai-chi) diagram. The taiji or tai-
chi diagram is a yin-yang symbol as you know. And yin-yang is basic
concept in I-Ching, of course. I emphasize here. The Chinese writing
for Bagua and the yin-yang symbols are there on the cards.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/image_7.jpg
For your reference,
http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=0x5366&searchty...
in CEDICT means Bagua)
The 索 suit is represented by bamboo slips. The 1-索 is written the
words 占卜 (zhān bǔ), meaning to divine, as given in CEDICT.
http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=0x535C&searchty...
The bamboo slip is called 签, a sign in words on a bamboo strip,
carries a divination message, oracle.
Do you recall Suo3 also means to seek, to demand , to ask [for
answer]?
So in Matiao (Ma Diao), one suit has all taiji circular yin-yang
diagrams with Bagua 八卦 written on 1-筒; another suit has bamboo strips
called 签 for divination; 占卜 is written on 1-索; obviously, 索 and 筒
suits of Matiao (Ma Diao) relate to YiJing (Book of Changes or I-
Ching), in this Ma Diao set on page 55. The words 占卜 and 八卦 are
printed on some cards. The symbols shown on page 55, photos 79 of
Illustrated Book of the Mahjong Museum clearly refer to divination,
not money or strings of Cash.
Now if Mahjong is related to Ma Diao at all, whether one is the
progenitor of the other or not, I-Ching is common to them both. Review
the page of Ma Diao translation by Lo. "1-Cash" was called "Grand
Ultimate".
Furthermore the word 万 is not a finite amount of ten-thousand. 万
relates to a collective noun in chapter 42 of Dao De Jing by Laozi.
Part of the translation is as follows:
++++++++++++++
Dao begets One (道生一)
One begets Two (一生二)
Two begets Three (二生三)
Three begets Ten-Thousand Things (三生万物)
> ++++++++++++++
In Daoism (and in the Book of Changes), according to Laozi, out of the
Great Emptiness (Birthplace Ultimate) came One. The One is Yang; yang
carries its polar opposite, Yin. Yin and Yang are Two.
Two, as yin and yang, is represented by a two-eye Tai-Chi or Taiji
diagram,
http://www.taopage.org/iching/image_7.jpg
The Two can be graphically simplified as two lines, ___ and -- --, in
trigram formation which have three lines. A three-line trigram of
particular order of combination is a symbol for Wind, Fire, Thunder,
water etc. as shown described in ancient terms.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/image_5.gif
http://www.taopage.org/iching/image_1.jpg
Eight of these phenomena represent the universe and its 万物 "ten-
thousand-things" including inanimate objects and living things and
human beings. See the human figure drawings? They were personified by
artists as Water Margin heroes. The octagonal 8-Diagram is called
Bagua, 八卦. The very same writing is on the 1-筒 of the Matiao card in
Photo 79 as mentioned above.
As you know, a hexagram is one of 64 possible combination of six
lines, broken and / or unbroken, used in divination, in the I-Ching
(Yijing). Also a hexagram consists of essentially two trigrams in
divination.
> +++++++++++++++
万,筒 and 索 are Matiao (Ma Diao) suits, as clearly named in Photo 79 on
page 55 of Illustrated Book of the Mahjong Museum. Mahjong has 3 suits
of the same names and therefore the same taiji (tai-chi) related
elements. Matiao (Ma Diao) and mahjong symbols have been
misinterpreted since and even before Ming Dynasty.
Again, here is a summary of I-Ching divination symbols.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/iching_symbols.html
Look closely at the symbol at the lower right corner. There is no hole
to that symbol. What does it look like? Imagine that gets smaller and
smaller to fit 9 of them onto a tile face.
+++++++++++++
Would these be qualified as "evidence" to show Ma Diao and Mahjong
relate to I-Ching? What else should I show?
I gave this explanation for Mahjong game-play and show how
that correlates with I-Ching concept. The rule is you cannot have a
run of ZHONG-FA-BAI, or East-South-West. The principle behind the
rule is this. Wind directions and zhong-fa-bai are time sensitive
elements/
aspects of cosmology. They correspond with the seasons, spring,
summer, autumn and winter. 3 different seasons can not occur at the
same time.
I also gave an explanation for the counter-lokwise rotation in mahjong
rounds. The movement goes by change in winds and winds change with the
earth. The earth moves counterclockwise around the sun.
Again, this is oriental correlative thinking...
> +++++++++++
Let me add one more correlation between I-Ching and mahjong. It is in
score counting, doubling and re-doubling. Basically that is increasing
by the power of 2.
Bagua, an Eight-Triram, is 2 to the power of 3; a hexagram oracle is 2
to the power of 6.
Yes. 2 yin-yang lines generate a Bagua (2^3), and 2^6 is 64. There
are 6 lines to a hexagram and 64 hexagrams in Yijing divination.
Simple numbers like 2 and 3 are also related in mahjong. After all,
standard winning pattern for the game is 2.3.3.3.3.
++++++++++ Chapter 42 Dao De Jing
Cheers...
Allan Lee
Dec. 04, 2008
pa...@email.unc.edu
> Dan, I did not try to show the connection between MJ & I-Ching
> (Yijing) in my previous post.
> Are you making reference to other posts?
> Viewing with skepticism is justified in any case. The "same"
> skepticism may not be always practiced or practicable. Like, I mean
< not every hypothesis created equal. Right?
Al,
Are you looking to turn this thread into a discussion of semantics? If
so, then I am not interested. I’ll reply briefly this one time.
When I wrote “With those points in mind, let’s look at your latest
post:” I thought that it would be obvious that I was including other
posts of yours when I replied on Oct. 14. While I also had in mind
other threads, your earlier Oct. 3 post on this thread included these
terms: TRIGRAM(S), TAIJI, “CHANGES”, Book of Changes, etc. If these
were not references to your Yijing Hypothesis, then what were they?
Do I really have to explain my meaning when I used the following
phrase?
> I view your Yijing idea with the same skepticism that I use for the
> poem and sparrow ideas presented in the broadcast (and the other
> sparrow idea presented by you; the Taiping idea presented by myself…
I view all of the hypotheses with skepticism. That does not mean that
I view them as all being equally plausible! Yes, I view them all with
the same skepticism, but with varying degrees of plausibility, varying
degrees of supporting evidence, etc. How could this not be so? Do you
really think that someone could view various hypotheses with the
“same” levels of skepticism? I wrote “same skepticism” NOT “same
degree of skepticism” or “identical levels of skepticism”, etc!
I am still not particularly interested in replying to your posts, and
I am less and less interested in your Yijing hypothesis, so please
don’t look to me for discussions of it.
Dan
msta...@talktalk.net
suited 'Ma Diao' card deck referenced on page 55 of the Illustrated
Book of the Mahjong Museum (1999), is NOT an example of a Ming Dynasty
4-suited Ma Diao deck. The Museum book references 3-suited card decks
that the Museum author considers are examples of what the 4-suited Ma
Daio deck changed into during the Qing Dynasty. The Museum author
labels these decks as 'Ma Diao' to refer to the group from which he
considers they originated. The game of Ma Diao was played with a 4-
suited money deck of playing cards.
References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
Museum book.
Regards
al
> On Dec 2, 5:51 pm, al <a...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Al,
> Are you looking to turn this thread into a discussion of semantics? [..]
>
No. Dan. There was need to clarify in what you stated in the last
post.
You said:
"> To me, none of those assumptions has any substantive supporting
> evidence. Other than possibly fitting your hypothesis better, I have
> not seen any evidence to support the ideas presented in your postings.
> Without addressing specifics of your other posts, I hope that you can
> see from the above why I cannot follow what you are trying to present."
End of quote.
+++++++++++++
I don't know what specific assumptions you refer to, so I provide
evidence to support whatever you think I have assumed. They are the
same evidence I have cited in my previous other posts. Of course they
are unlike the folklore and slang spoken in old novels that are not
explanatory but printed and historical.
Imagine. If the same I-Ching connection had been hinted in a book by
some historic figure some years ago, what would be your "level of
skepticism" then?
> Truly bewildered,
> Dan
+++++++++++++
For people who do not appreciate I-Ching, the concept is difficult to
grasp. Yin and yang can be symbolized by 2 lines and transform to 8
figures of 3-line combination to represent the universe and the myriad
things in it. Life and the universe and everything are changing all
the time, daily, yearly, life-time...
The game, Mahjong, is cosmological and philosophical. That is the
reason why its origin is still a mystery in the mahjong world. Players
do not know the symbols and do not understand the principles behind
the rules.
I can appreciate possibly many others are bewildered as well.
+++++++++++
Cheers....al
al
> For any non-poster reading this thread, it should be noted that the 3-
> suited 'Ma Diao' card deck referenced on page 55 of the Illustrated
> Book of the Mahjong Museum (1999), is NOT an example of a Ming Dynasty
> 4-suited Ma Diao deck.
The important point is that it was the design of one of the family of
Ma Diao cards.
Straightly speaking, the 4-suited Ma Diao, although played and
written about by Pan & Feng in Ming, could have been long in existence
earlier.
[..]
> [,,]. The game of Ma Diao was played with a 4-
> suited money deck of playing cards.
>
Correction: "string of cash" was Lo's own translation. The Chinese
text was 索, sou3, meaning (to ask, to demand, to extract [an answer,
as in divination].)
The symbol called Cash was an obvious mistake, because the 1-Cash was
a drawing " like " the taiji [yin-yang] diagram. Lo's translation said
so.
If the 1-cash is one taiji diagram, what would 2-cash' likely be? 2
taiji diagrams is a logical answer; 3-Cash then 3 taiji diagrams.
That is exactly what the Ma Diao set on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum shows.
The Ming author of the Ma Diao manual took what the players called
those symbols based on their own slang and oral tradition. What were
really called "Zero Cash" and "Half Cash" ? The players did not know.
If the manuals had been written better and the drawings smaller, and
the translation interpreted clearer. Then "Cash" would have been all
taiji diagrams.
> References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
> suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
> any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
> Museum book.
>
> Regards
+++++++++++
Again, "1-Cash" was a misnomer. It was "like the diagram of the taiji
(grand ultimate)" as per translation.
I might add...the 3-suit deck of the Mahjong Museum on page 55 should
have been the reference for research.
++++++++++
Allan Lee
al
> References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
> suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
> any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
> Museum book.
>
questions below.
++++++++++
For researchers on Ma Diao reference to 4-suited "money deck" , here
are some questions waiting for answers.
(1) Is the name Ma Tiao or Ma Diao?
(2) What does it really mean, one of the following?
Ma Diao = Horse Hang =马吊
Ma Diao = Horse Drop =马 掉.
Ma Tiao = Twin Lines = 孖条
(3) What is this about? "Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is
ideal for storage and saving."
(4) How about this? " do not forget the empty. Emptiness forms the
base...This is why the forty cards were invented."
(5) Why is this "Void" in the following description? "The supreme,
Zero Cash... with a heading 'Void of one cash'."
Can anybody accept a "zero-dollar" bill?
If not, why would or should anybody accept "Zero Cash"??
(6) The "1-Cash" was said to be "like the diagram of the taiji (grand
ultimate)". Was it the taiji yin-yang diagram or just "like" it and
why?
All these 6 questions refer to material on 4-suited deck written by
Pan Zhiheng during Ming dynasty (1556-1622) on pages 88 and 89 in
English translation of The Playing-
Card Volume 31 Number 2.
(7) Where else do terms such as "supreme, emptiness, void, taiji
diagram, grand ultimate" etc. appear and what do they associate with,
infer or imply?
(8) Final question: if Ma Diao is related to Mahjong even remotely,
would they share something common in concept (like Void, Taiji
diagram, Ultimate, Emptiness, etc.) other than so-called "Cash-suited"
idea?
++++++++
P.S. Can the 3-suited Ma Diao deck on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum answer some or all the above questions?
+++++++++++
Allan Lee
al
> >[..]
Dan, you said:
"I really cannot follow your presentations concerning the possibility
of a connection between mahjong and the Yijing."
> [..]
My bit by bit "presentation" has failed. Now I will let the "evidence"
do the persuading.
Take a look at page 55, Photo 79 of Illustrated Book of the Mahjong
Museum.
A 3-suited Ma Diao set has all the YiJing divination connections,
written and pictorial, in clear view.
I don't know how anybody can miss evidence such as this. It is in 3
languages (Japanese, Chinese and English).
> I am still not particularly interested in replying to your posts, and
> I am less and less interested in your Yijing hypothesis, so please
> don’t look to me for discussions of it.
>
> Dan
+++++++++++
I have found the connection and evidence I have been looking for. I
need not to discuss with any one further, except to support my
hypothesis if needed.
++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec.14, 2008
msta...@talktalk.net
book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
partly into the Qing.
The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
various games during the Qing.
When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
3-suited deck.
There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
discussions on this NG.
As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
al
> [..]
> The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> various games during the Qing.
>
the "1-Cash. Like the diagram of taiji (grand ultimate)."
> When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> 3-suited deck.
>
That is the problem. They have tunnel vision and fixation on Cash.
(Cash can be without square hole, copper , silver or bamboo disc).
> There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
> There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards.
+++++++++++++++
There is at least one non-money deck which is the most relevant of
all. See pge 55, Photo 79.
++++++++++
That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> discussions on this NG.
>
This is to discredit whom? Any one who refer the 3-suited deck as Ma
Diao including the editors in MJM of Japan?
> As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
+++++++++++++++++
Just the name, regardless of content makes it "wholly incorrect,
misleading and hence, irrelevant."
MJM Book calls the 3-suited deck on page 55, Photo79, a member of the
Ma Diao family. What if it is called Ma Niao? The name should not
discredit the contents.
Any respectable researcher in zoology study would look at either one
or compare both, a four-legged dog and a 3-legged dog when the vital
internal organs are of interest. A dog is a dog.
Saying a "Qing 3-suited deck" irrelevant is like a cast iron pot
("Ming 4-suited deck") calling a stainless steel deep-fryer useless
when their purpose is for cooking "Chicken Balls", a dish of the 20th
century.
After all, mahjong was only discovered by westerners in the 19th
century during the Qing dynasty. In term of timing, the "Qing 3-suited
deck", call it what you will, is more relevant to mahjong than the
"Ming 4-suited deck" hundreds years away.
+++++++++++++++
Cheers....
Allan Lee
msta...@talktalk.net
As an addition to the above clarification - it should also be pointed
out that NONE of the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
dated. Since they are undated, none can be used as examples of playing
card decks from before the earliest documented (dated) Ma Que
descriptions.
The only dated documented examples of a playing card deck - as dated
evidence for the suit names derived from money - come from a
translation of a late Ming card manual given by Dr Andrew Lo in the
Journal of the International Playing Card Society. (For those new to
this subject, this topic was discussed and explained on this NG with
input from Dr Lo as to the meaning of the manual text translated by
him.)
msta...@talktalk.net
Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
by Dr Andrew Lo.
In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
them.
For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
al
Not true. Dated or undated photos in the Japanese Illustrated Book of
the Mahjong Museum did exist. The card deck of photo 79 was printed
from a woodblock shown as photo 78. It is not hearsay, but real SOLID
evidence.That is the key.
A date indicates correctly or incorrectly when an item existed. It
does not guarantee truthfulness.
For example, the earliest of the flat-Earth people was the African
Lactantius (AD 245-325). He was not right, as it turnedout, yet the
idea was dated nearly 1700 years ago.
+++++++++
Researchers referring to a money
> suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
+++++++++
Note the word " probable".
> refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> by Dr Andrew Lo.
++++++++++
The manual had the name different from another. The writers were
dated. Where did they gather material for their manuals?
The so-called "1-Cash" was "like the diagram of the taiji". Why did
the author call a diagram of taiji, money? It was no money. It even
said the taiji as "grand ultimate". Money is not grand ultimate.
Obviously the term was incorrect, dated or not. The taiji diagram has
2 round eyes but no square hole. What good does a date do for any
researcher in such case when the content is faulty?
>
> In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> them.
>
Again the denominations do not compare in quantitative terms. The
drawings on the cards are symbols not objects, like fruits in he
Garden of Eden.
More importantly, money does not explain its relation with a mahjong
suit that has EAST, SOUTH, WEST and North.
> For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
Unfortunately, the translator failed to include pictorial
illustrations for the whole suit of taiji diagrams. He only said "from
1 Cash to 9 Cash, I describe what is depicted. The size of the objects
are not in order."
"2 Cash. Like a waist drum" and "7-Cash. Like the shape of the
Northern dipper."
Presumably, these Cash are all taiji diagrams, not money with a square
hole in the middle. The translator never did clarify the question.
> Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
++++++++++
Support for the money-derived suits is based on hearsay evidence.
Chinese players call the circular shape by half a dozen names. Dating
it means nothing. Nobody knows for sure how long the mahjong game has
been around.
++++++++++++++++++
For research reference, check these symbols in the link.
http://www.taopage.org//iching/iching_symbols.html
+++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
msta...@talktalk.net
> Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> them.
>
> For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
Unfortunately, the original post did not appear so the post above was
posted instead. This has resulted in duplication of the information.
The above posts are intended for new readers to this forum and hence
are for information purposes only and are NOT intended to be part of
any discussion.
Regards
al
> On Dec 15, 12:58 pm, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
> > book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
> > this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
>
> > Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
> > FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
> > partly into the Qing.
>
> > The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> > various games during the Qing.
>
> > When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> > they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> > 3-suited deck.
>
> > There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
> > There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> > belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> > is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK. Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> > NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> > discussions on this NG.
>
> > As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> > Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> > origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
> As an addition to the above clarification - it should also be pointed
> out that NONE of the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> dated. Since they are undated, none can be used as examples of playing
> card decks from before the earliest documented (dated) Ma Que
> descriptions.
The "dated" statement above is obviously erroneous. By definition,
"Ming 4-suited deck" existed in the Ming dynasty (1368-1644), as
implied; and "Qing 3-suited deck existed in Qing dynasty (1636-1911),
likewise. The decks of cards existed within their time-frame.
> The only dated documented examples of a playing card deck - as dated
> evidence for the suit names derived from money - come from a
> translation of a late Ming card manual given by Dr Andrew Lo in the
> Journal of the International Playing Card
++++++++++++++++++
Here is a sample of the dated document.
"A cash is circular with a hole square. It takes its image from the
great, and the counting is done in reverse, ending in Zero cash. Thus
Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is ideal for storage and
saving... The next is called 'the guest with missing teeth' (Half
Cash). Incompleteness is represented by the imagery of plums emaining
above a wll after a voracious meal. Poeple regard it as 'sprig of
flower'. A sprig of flower is one when the flower has not turned into
fruit. Thus from 1 to 9 they re all called fruits (guo), their names
coming from the sprig of flowers, although 'cash' was the original
meaning. The total number of cards is eleven and reaches its lower
limit at 9." The is direct quote from page 87.
Cash is one of four suits. "Each suit has its own hierarchy. The cash
suit starts from Zero Cash, Broken Cash (Half Cash) to 8 Cash. The
cash are piled up to form the hundreds (Strings suit), the hundreds
piled up to form the Myriad (suit), (taking myriad to mean ten
thousand), the myriads to form the Ten Myriads (suit) which ends in
the Ten Thousand Myriad card."
That too is direct quote from top of page 87.
These are money denominations (as claimed), starting with Cash at a
value of one-tenth of one cent. The next denomination is String of
100, although 1000 had been called a String as well. The third suit is
Myriad (taken to mean 10,000) and the fourth suit starts with 100,000
(hundred thousand) and ends at 10,000,000 (ten million).
+++++++++++++++
Somehow all these denominations and exotic descriptions all sound
phony money. They were called "fruits", so much like those from the
Garden of Eden (symbols for a concept other than money).
Take a look at page 55 photo 79 of the Illustrated Book of the Majong
Museum. The "Qing 3-suited deck" of cards has the historical roots of
mahjong.
More is to be said on this later.
++++++++++++++
Society. (For those new to
> this subject, this topic was discussed and explained on this NG with
> input from Dr Lo as to the meaning of the manual text translated by
> him.)
The topic was discussed and argued at length, but unresolved.
Input from Dr. Lo? Where?
++++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
al
> > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > origins of the ma que suit names.
INTERPRETATION: (All, most or some?) researchers do not use this
Japanese MJM Bbok in their work on "origin of the ma que suit names".
The photos and wood blocks associated are "undated" and therefore all
the suit names are "irrelevant", regardless what the Book says. [Is
that about right?]
Researchers referring to a money
> > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > by Dr Andrew Lo.
INTERPRETATION: All researchers [in this group?] refer only to the
documentation of a Late Ming card manual [in translated and dated
version] for ma que suit name origin. [?]
>
> > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > them.
INTERPRETATION: one name for each of four suits; illustration on each
card. [?]
Not quite so simple. The key claim is the "Cash" suit [derived from a
circular shape and a slang expression]. This Cash suit has Zero Cash,
Half Cash and Cash 1 to 9. Zero Cash is highest in reversed ranking
and 1-Cash is a taiji (Tai Chi) diagram (no square hole at the middle
like a regular coin). That is the kind of Cash in the "Ming 4-suited
deck".
However, because the deck had a manual in Chinese (although there's no
mention where it is now), translated, hence "dated" and "documented".
Therefore it is the source "supreme ultimate" for ma que suit
research. [?]
>
> > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
Here are some interesting topics [4 suits] in the translation. Quotes:
1 Cash. Like the diagram of the taiji (grand ultimate).
3 Cash. Like the shape of the GEN (Creative) trigram.
6 Cash. Like the shape of the KUN (Receptive) trigram.
5 Strings. Like the shape of the GEN (Keeping Still) trigram.
1 Myriad guan: Heaven's Clever Star.
2 Myriad guan: Heven's Heroic Star.
8 Myriad guan: Heaven's Void Star.
9 Myriad guan: Heaven's Retreat Star.
Hundred Myriad guan: Heaven's Criminal Star.
Thousnd Myriad guan: Heaven's Wounded Star.
Ten-thousand Myriad guan: Heaven's Supreme Star.
The above examples represent the 4 money-suits in Ma Diao and serve as
the base of support for the ma que "money-suited" claim. It's
documented evidence; no less.
>
> > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
For direct support, there is 1-Cash, then Half-Cash and even Zero Cash
(highest).
>
> Unfortunately, the original post did not appear so the post above was
> posted instead. This has resulted in duplication of the information.
>
> The above posts are intended for new readers to this forum and hence
> are for information purposes only and are NOT intended to be part of
> any discussion.
>
> Regards
+++++++++++++
INTERPRETATION: Take these words of advice. No intention to discuss
further. [?]
+++++++++++
Let's boil it down to a simple question in a life situation.
If I say to a 6-year old kid: "Here is Zero Cash. Go buy something."
What would he or she say? "That's no cash. You think I am stupid?"
+++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
Dec. 17, 2008
msta...@talktalk.net
> > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > origins of the ma que suit names. Researchers referring to a money
> > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
> > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > by Dr Andrew Lo.
>
> > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > them.
>
> > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
>
> > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
site. Type in any of these topic headings;
Why a Sparrow?
Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
Winds Order.
What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).
msta...@talktalk.net
More importantly, check out the topic;
Origin of Mahjong. Invented or Evolved.
al
> On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
> > > Additional note: All the examples in the Japanese MJ Museum book are
> > > undated and are therefore irrelevant to researchers interested in the
> > > origins of the ma que suit names.
[AL:] ARE YOU SPEAKING FOR THE ONE AND ONLY RESEARCHER(s)?
[MS:] Researchers referring to a money
> > > suited deck - as the most probable origin of the suits in ma que -
> > > that existed before the earliest dated and documented Ma Que game,
[AL:] WHY? ANY RESEARCHER KNOWS MANY MOST VALUABLE DISCOVERIES HAVE
BEEN FOUNDED IN SOME LEAST PROBABLE SITUATIONS.
[MS:]
> > > refer to the dated documentation of a late Ming card manual translated
> > > by Dr Andrew Lo.
[AL:] "OUT-DATED" IS MORE LIKE IT.
>
[MS:]
> > > In this translation, four suits are explicitly named after money
> > > denominations and are described as having various illustrations upon
> > > them.
[AL:] HERE ARE SAMPLES OF THE DENOMINATIONS OF MONEY:
"ZERO CASH, HALF-CASH AND ONE-CASH"
"STRING OF CASH", 1 TO 9
"MYRIAD OF CASH"
"TEN MYRIAD, 100 1,000 MYRIAD CASH"
[AL:] NOTE. ZERO CASH (SUPREME, HIGHEST, WHILE 9-CASH IS LOWEST)
HALF-CASH IS A GUEST WITH MISSING TEETH. ONE-CASH IS "LIKE THE DIAGRAM
OF TAIJI (GRAND ULTIMATE).
FOR THE STRINGS OF CASH, 1-STRING IS "LIKE A HIR PIN". 6-STRING LIKE A
TRIGRAM [IN DIVINATION]
ALL MYRIADS OF CASH ARE NAMED WITH TITLES OF HEAVENLY STARS.
ALL IN ALL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY, IF ANYBODY BELIEVES IN "ZERO CASH"
AND THAT ZERO CASH IS MOST CASH, HE IS OR OUGHT TO BE IN LOO LOO LAND.
ZERO CASH IS NO CASH. IT IS SIMPLE AS THAT. DOES NOT MATTER WHO SAID
SO, WHETHER IT WAS HO OR LO.
>
> > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
[AL:] NEW READERS SHOULD GET A COPY THE TRANSLATION ARTICLE AND READ
THE FIRST 3 PAGES TO GET A REAL FLAVOR AND SENSE OF CASH.
>
[MS:]
> > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
[AL:] TRANSLATION OF A DESCRIPTION DOES NOT MEAN DIRECT SUPPORT. LO
USED A QING [ENGLISH] TERM "CASH" (FROM HIMLY?) AND APPLIED IT TO A
MING [CHINESE] TERM (SUO3 (索).
(索) HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING IN CHINESE. TO ASK, TO DEMAND, TO SEEK,
TO EXTRACT [GUIDANCE AND ADVICE] AS IN DIVINATION IS THE TRUE MEANING
OF THE WORD, IMO.
>
[MS]
> Examples of these topics may be found in the Search facility of the
> site. Type in any of these topic headings;
>
> Why a Sparrow?
> Mahjong and Matiao related? How and Why?
> Origin of Mahjong(MJ)/Other Hu Pai Design.
> Winds Order.
> What is Ma Que/Mahjong?(Was Winds Order).
[AL:] THE ABOVE QUESTIONS AND TOPICS HAVE BEEN EYE-OPENERS FOR ME. I
HAVE LEARNED A LOT BUT I AM GETTING CLOSER TO some MORE ANSWERS.
THANKS.
++++++++++
Allan Lee
Dec. 18, 2008
msta...@talktalk.net
New readers to this forum checking out the posts in this MJ topic
thread will find revealed examples of incorrect thinking and examples
of serious memory loss. For example;
A quoted list from one of the posts in reply to a poster;
"(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
documentary
evidence.
(2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
what others have clearly not thought or said.
(3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
they
are guesses or assumptions.
(4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
them
out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
Such behaviours are the result of thinking errors and faulty memory
and are severe problems to NG discussion on topics such as the various
origin hypotheses of MJ attributes.
al
> On Dec 17, 9:58 pm, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 7:40 pm, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 16, 10:28 am, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:
>
MS:
> New readers to this forum checking out the posts in this MJ topic
> thread will find revealed examples of incorrect thinking and examples
> of serious memory loss. For example;
>
A CHANCE TO READ IT THEMSELVES. LET THEM JUDGE.
IS THERE A TERM FOR THAT? POISONING THE WATER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
YOU HAVE LOST OBJECTIVITY WITHOUT KNOWING, MICHAEL.
[MS:]
> A quoted list from one of the posts in reply to a poster;
> "(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
> documentary
> evidence.
> (2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
> what others have clearly not thought or said.
> (3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
> support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
> they
> are guesses or assumptions.
> (4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
> them
> out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
>
[AL:] THAT IS ONLY YOUR VIEW. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW I SEE IT.
CAN YOU APPLY THEM TO RECENT POSTS?
[MS:]
> Such behaviours are the result of thinking errors and faulty memory
> and are severe problems to NG discussion on topics such as the various
> origin hypotheses of MJ attributes.
[AL:] DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE. YOU BELIEVE IN "ZERO CASH"; I DO NOT. I
POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT 1-CASH WAS A TAIJI DIAGRAM IN MING MADIAO4.
YOU IGNORED IT. YOU DISCREDITED THE QING MADIAO3 IN MJM BOOK.
I RAISED QUESTIONS AND DOUBTS ABOUT THE 4 SUITS IN YOUR REFERENCE
SOURCE. YOU FAILED TO ADDRESS THEM. WHAT ANSWERS HAVE FOUND LATELY? I
CAN SAY I HAVE FOUND ANSWERS FOR MY QUESTIONS.
ONE EXAMPLE: WHY A SPARROW IS ON 1-索? THE OBVIOUS ANSWER IS JUST A
SIMPLE FACT: SPARROW LIVE AND FEED ON BAMBOO. THERE IS SELDOM A
CHINESE PAINTING OF BAMBOO WITHOUT A SPARROW. THAT MEANS NO 'STRINGS'
AND NO CASH. BAMBOO GOES WITH SPARROW.
BAMBOO EXPLAINS THE SYMBOL AND CORRESPOND WITH BAMBOO SLIPS IN THE
SUIT OF MADIAO3 IN MJM BOOK. BAMBOO SLIPS SERVED AS A BASIC TOOL OF
DIVINATION IN ANCIENT TIME.
DIVINATION TIES IN WITH THE TAIJI DIAGRAM AND YIN-YANG CONCEPT IN I-
CHING TRIGRAMS AND HEXAGRAMS ETC. ETC. ALL MAKE SENSE!
THE CORRELATION COEFFICIENT IS THE MEASURE OF A HYPOTHESIS. WHEN
"CASH' CAN NOT EXPLAIN THE RULES OF MAHJONG AND THE RELATION WITH
RESPECT TO ESWN AND OTHER SYMBOLS, 'MONEY BASE' IS WORTHLESS.
"ZERO CASH IS ZERO CASH".
NO GOOD EVEN "HALF-CASH".
MATTERS NOT WHO SAID SO,
MISTER LEE OR DOCTOR LO.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[MS:]
> > > For interested new readers to this group, past topics have dealt with
> > > Dr Lo's translation of this very important card manual.
[AL:] NEW READERS SHOULD GET A COPY THE TRANSLATION ARTICLE AND READ
THE FIRST 3 PAGES TO GET A REAL FLAVOR AND SENSE OF CASH.
[MS:]
> > > Please refer to these topics, in which dated and documented evidence
> > > directly supporting the money-derived suit hypothesis is discussed.
[AL:] TRANSLATION OF A DESCRIPTION DOES NOT MEAN DIRECT SUPPORT. LO
USED A QING [ENGLISH] TERM "CASH" (FROM HIMLY?) AND APPLIED IT TO A
MING [CHINESE] TERM (SUO3 (索).
(索) HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING IN CHINESE. TO ASK, TO DEMAND, TO SEEK,
TO EXTRACT [GUIDANCE AND ADVICE] AS IN DIVINATION IS THE TRUE MEANING
OF THE WORD, IMO.
++++++++++++++++
msta...@talktalk.net
documentary evidence.
(2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
what others have clearly not thought or said.
(3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
they are guesses or assumptions.
(4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
them out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
The post from the last poster is replete with examples of all the
points above. Particularly interesting are the examples in that post
of # 2 and #3 above, when coupled with the fact that the claims above,
with reference to Lo's translations, were already repeatedly answered
with evidential support.
Such behaviours of;
(1) ignoring or completely forgetting to answer the arguments that
were given with documentary evidence or
(2) distorting that evidence by taking it out of context or
(3) when answers about various terms were provided with contextual
evidence, then falling back on the tactic of casting unfounded
aspertions on the translator's expertise while
(4) continuing to blatantly cite or use terms from that very
translation
are an effort to swamp and abuse this forum with an agenda using the
above behaviours.
Repeated posts rehashing the same behaviours may be found in the
Mahjong topic headings listed in recent posts. It is not the content
of the arguments but the behaviours on this forum of the person
posting them that is at issue.
al
MS:
> "(1) you clearly ignore corrections to your references from
> documentary evidence.
++++++++++
AL:
Not clear to me...what when where and who? I can never accept "Zero
Cash" as documented evidence.
++++++++++
MS:
> (2) you repeatedly distort what others have said or make claims about
> what others have clearly not thought or said.
++++++++++++
I do not know how to distort what others say. I do not need to.
Readers know the difference. And I have no way of knowing what others
thought and haven't said.
+++++++++++++++++++
MS:
> (3) you repeatedly make claims for which you have no evidential
> support whatsoever. You don't even phrase your assertions to hint
> they are guesses or assumptions.
+++++++++++++++
AL:
When speaking from personal experience, I need no evidential support
whatsoever.
Let me remind you. In mahjong discussion, everything is "guessing"
and assumptions are upon assumptions. Who is unaware of that?
++++++++++
MS:
> (4) you repeatedly select parts of what others have said and take
> them out of context so that they appear to support your ideas."
++++++++++++
AL:
Strongly disagree... one can only quote so much. Supporting one's own
hypothesis is purpose of discussion. Nothing wrong there.
++++++++++++++++++
MS:
> The post from the last poster is replete with examples of all the
> points above. Particularly interesting are the examples in that post
> of # 2 and #3 above, when coupled with the fact that the claims above,
> with reference to Lo's translations, were already repeatedly answered
> with evidential support.
++++++++++++
AL:
You should be more specific. Cite examples.
++++++++++++++
MS:
> Such behaviours of;
> (1) ignoring or completely forgetting to answer the arguments that
> were given with documentary evidence or
> (2) distorting that evidence by taking it out of context or
> (3) when answers about various terms were provided with contextual
> evidence, then falling back on the tactic of casting unfounded
> aspertions on the translator's expertise while
> (4) continuing to blatantly cite or use terms from that very
> translation
>
> are an effort to swamp and abuse this forum with an agenda using the
> above behaviours.
>
> Repeated posts rehashing the same behaviours may be found in the
> Mahjong topic headings listed in recent posts. It is not the content
> of the arguments but the behaviours on this forum of the person
> posting them that is at issue.
+++++++++++++++
AL:
You have to be more specific, Michael. But as I said: with reference
to Ma Diao "cash",
"Zero Cash" is a zero
"Half Cash" is a no-no
Matters not who said so
Mister Lee or doctor Lo
++++++++++++
Cheers...
Allan Lee
Dec. 19, 2008
msta...@talktalk.net
repleat with glaring logical fallacies and appeals to the irrational
notion of personal experience (when outside of the person's time
frame) - instead of dated documentary evidence - as if it were a
virtue.
When caught out by the translator's own testimony(via a poster to this
forum) of the meaning of the original text, then denying the
translator's expertise and integrity. When that fails, blatantly out
and out denial by falling back on their own ignorance, as if that were
also a virtue!
There is also their denial in not knowing how to distort what others
have said, even after they have ignored the many distortions when they
are pointed out to them with the undistorted text.
There is also their seeming inability in facing the hilarious
contradiction when they deny the meanings of parts of a text that they
cannot force into their baseless arguments, whilst simultaneously
using other parts of the very same text to support those same baseless
arguments.
Some of their more common logical fallacies will be described - with
examples from these posts - in due course.
Finally, there is also their apparent memory loss, which may account
for some of behaviour.
As has been said before, but it is important, the poster who is the
subject of this post is not categorized with these failings because of
his dissenting opinions, but because of the manner in which he behaves
in topic discussions in this forum.
al
following my post immediately preceding:
I, in an effort to show the possibility of a connection between
mahjong and Yijing, I decided to let evidence do the talking. I made
reference to page 55, Photo 79 of "Illustrated Book of the Mahjong
Museum (1999). There a 3-suited Ma Diao set has all the YiJing
divination connections, written in 3 languages (Japanese, Chinese and
English). That prompted the response below and further comments
unjustified.
> Any readers of this NG not in possession of the Japanese MJ Museum
> book may find themselves inadvertantly confused regarding the use of
> this book, with reference to discussions of MJ development.
>
What possible confusion?
> Researchers posting to this group have made reference to the Ma Diao
> FOUR-suited playing card DECK. This deck existed during the Ming and
> partly into the Qing.
>
> The four suited Ma Diao DECK evolved into a 3-suited Deck used to play
> various games during the Qing.
>
Simple enough... a 4-suited deck in Ming (presumably) evolved into 3-
suited deck in Qing over time. The 4-suited deck could be related to
the 3-suited deck, logically.
> When researchers talk about Ma Diao in relation to Ma Que development
> they are ONLY talking about the Ming FOUR-SUITED DECK and NOT the Qing
> 3-suited deck.
>
Question: Ming 4-suited deck evolved to Qing 3-suited deck; why
researchers limit their scope to talking about ONLY the former and
exclude the latter?
> There are NO 4-suited Ma Diao Decks in the Japanese MJ Museum book.
>
So what? The DNA in the 3-suited deck could serve just as well,
perhaps, as DNA of the 4-suited deck. Why not study one or the other
or both?
> There are 3-suited money decks in the book which the Museum considers
> belong to A FAMILY of Playing cards. That Family they name Ma Diao. It
> is NOT the name of the 3-suited DECK.
On what evidence and authority? Then what is the name of the 3-suited
deck (on page 55 of that Book)?
>Thus, these 3-suited DECKS are
> NOT examples of Ma Diao DECKS in the context of Ma Que development
> discussions on this NG.
Again, who decides on this context and why? This sounds like
restricting blood study to type "A" only, not type (B) or any other
types in search of a particular feature of blood.
>
> As such, any statements that these 3-suited decks are examples of Ma
> Diao decks that researchers use when talking about Ma Que suits
> origins, are wholly incorrect, misleading and hence, irrelevant.
+++++++++
Does that not sound arbitrary, over-bearing and unreasonable?
Supposedly, it is known commonly accepted that 4-suited ma diao
evolved to 3-suited ma diao, except it is not commonly known that no 3-
suited decks can be called Ma Diao.
That is hard to believe; so I don't believe it.
More yet... mahjong is believed related to ma diao, but mahjong cannot
relate directly in anyway to 3-suited not-ma-diao, it can ONLY relate
to the 4-suited Ming Ma Diao, regardless how the 3-suited Non-MD and
the 4-suited Ming-MD may be linked in their past.
No wonder nothing came out of research for the past 10 years on origin
of mahjong. The focus has been on ONLY one place. Reject anything
outside the money signs of "Ming 4-suited Ma Diao" such as: Quote
1 Cash. Like the diagram of the taiji (grand ultimate).
3 Cash. Like the shape of the GEN (Creative) trigram.
6 Cash. Like the shape of the KUN (Receptive) trigram.
1 String. Like a hair pin.
5 Strings. Like the shape of the GEN (Keeping Still) trigram.
1 Myriad guan: Heaven's Clever Star.
2 Myriad guan: Heven's Heroic Star.
8 Myriad guan: Heaven's Void Star.
9 Myriad guan: Heaven's Retreat Star.
Hundred Myriad guan: Heaven's Criminal Star.
Thousnd Myriad guan: Heaven's Wounded Star.
Ten-thousand Myriad guan: Heaven's Supreme Star
Unquote.
+++++++++++
Researchers, to be relevant and correct, must refer to these suits
when talking about ma que origin, as stated above. Anyone disagrees
and argues persistently may be said to have behavioral problem.
++++++++++++++
That is how I analyze, interpret and understanding the post. Correct
me if I am wrong. Be specific in your accusation.
+++++++++++
Allan lee
Dec. 19, 2008
al
> It hardly need be pointed out that the previous poster's 'ideas' are
> repleat with glaring logical fallacies and appeals to the irrational
> notion of personal experience (when outside of the person's time
> frame) - instead of dated documentary evidence - as if it were a
> virtue.
Come down a notch from your scholarly level, Michael. Whaat is it your
are trying to say?
> When caught out by the translator's own testimony(via a poster to this
> forum) of the meaning of the original text, then denying the
> translator's expertise and integrity. When that fails, blatantly out
> and out denial by falling back on their own ignorance, as if that were
> also a virtue!
What are you talking about? Give it straight and be specific.
> There is also their denial in not knowing how to distort what others
> have said, even after they have ignored the many distortions when they
> are pointed out to them with the undistorted text.
Where, what, when? Don't just accuse people without factual evidence.
That is ungentlemanly conduct. You know that.
I doubt if I could distort by playing with words like you do.
> There is also their seeming inability in facing the hilarious
> contradiction when they deny the meanings of parts of a text that they
> cannot force into their baseless arguments, whilst simultaneously
> using other parts of the very same text to support those same baseless
> arguments.
As for baseless argument, I know of at least one. It is the Cash-less
argument. I mean more specifically, the Zero Cash and Half Cash that
were called "guo' or fruits.
> Some of their more common logical fallacies will be described - with
> examples from these posts - in due course.
Why not do it now? Why be so forgiving?
I can still learn yet.
> Finally, there is also their apparent memory loss, which may account
> for some of behaviour.
>
That could be. Lapse of memory is not uncommon for people of all age.
I am no exception.
> As has been said before, but it is important, the poster who is the
> subject of this post is not categorized with these failings because of
> his dissenting opinions, but because of the manner in which he behaves
> in topic discussions in this forum.
I am not sure about that, Michael. I sensed a need for you to guard
against dissenting opinions. I noticed a change of attitude in you
ever since I showed the following link which IMO relates mahjong to I-
Ching divination. I may be wrong.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/iching_symbols.html
+++++++++++++++
I will not be responding to you any more unless you talk sense and get
down to specific points. I owe my knowledge of Ma Diao to you.
Students can have different views on the same subject. That is not
new. Unless we can discuss with mutual respect, then there is no use
to continue.
+++++++++++++
msta...@talktalk.net
> > subject of this post is not categorized with these failings because of
> > his dissenting opinions, but because of the manner in which he behaves
> > in topic discussions in this forum.
With reference to the above, readers are given ample examples of the
previous poster's behaviour in the topics listed in previous posts.
This is especially important when considering the previous posters
behaviour towards the use of dated evidence when inferring a
chronological development in a logical manner. The is repeated failure
to understand the role of evidence and assumptions in explanations
when pointed out and a repeated failure to recognise or admit the lack
of direct evidence for their ideas when those ideas are put forward
for others expected serious consideration.
When those ideas are found wanting the poster then begins an agenda of
deliberate distortion of the ideas of his critics through the
irrational abuse, distortion or misreading or denial of evidence.
All may be found under the Mahjong topics listed in previous posts.
al
> On Dec 9, 4:56 pm, mstanw...@talktalk.net wrote:>[..]
> > References by researchers on this forum to Ma Diao as a source for the
> > suit names are references to the Ming 4-suited Ma Diao deck and NOT to
> > any of the 3-suited, undated examples as shown in the Japanese MJ
For what, if any, good reasons?
A question was raised about the the claim taht Ma Diao or MaTiao is a
an important progenitor of mahjong. There has not been a satisfactory
answer.
>
> Perhaps the 4-suited Ma Diao deck have some of the answers to the
> questions below.
If it is such revered reference, it should, I would exprect it to,
have reasonable answers to all these questions when researchers place
much confidence in its accuracy and reliability.
> ++++++++++
So,
> For researchers on Ma Diao reference to 4-suited "money deck" , here
> are some questions waiting for answers.!!
>
If researchers do not have answers for these questions, should you
place so much faith on Ming manual and reliying on the translation of
Ma Diao?
> (1) Is the name Ma Tiao or Ma Diao??
> (2) What does it really mean, one of the following??
>
> Ma Diao = Horse Hang =马吊[eg?]
> Ma Diao = Horse Drop =马 掉 [leg?]
> Ma Tiao = Twin Lines = 孖条 [lines?]
>
> (3) What is this about? "Zero Cash is supreme. Something empty is
> ideal for storage and saving."
Does this refer to an empty piggy bank?
>
> (4) How about this? " do not forget the empty. Emptiness forms the
> base...This is why the forty cards were invented."
What did Pan Zhiheng try to say? The 40 cards of Ma Diao were invented
out of nothing?
>
> (5) Why is this "Void" in the following description? "The supreme,
> Zero Cash... with a heading 'Void of one cash'."
Pan and Feng and Rong (all ming period unofficial acholar/historians)
may have learned the game. They do not impress me as being knowlegible
of the historical origin of the game. Why should their words be the
sole reference for mahjong rresearch?
What does "Void of one cash" look like? Why has researchers so readily
accepted its translation? The picture for Zero Cash" was a Persian
with short legs and black boots! Can you imagine that?
Yet such as these, "Void of one cash" and taiji diagram, grand
ultimate 1-cash, are researchers' "dated evidence" for mahjong
research.
Taliking about "incorrect use of Ma Diao", here you have it!
>
> Can anybody accept a "zero-dollar" bill?
> If not, why would or should anybody accept "Zero Cash"??
Zero-dollar or zero-cent...Is that what is referred to as oxymoron?
>
> (6) The "1-Cash" was said to be "like the diagram of the taiji (grand
> ultimate)". Was it the taiji yin-yang diagram or just "like" it and
> why?
Taiji or Tai Chi diagram relates to Daoism and Book of Changes. Could
that ever be a possible reason for its presense there in Ma Diao?
>
> All these 6 questions refer to material on 4-suited deck written by
> Pan Zhiheng during Ming dynasty (1556-1622) on pages 88 and 89 in
> English translation of The Playing-
> Card Volume 31 Number 2.
Back issues may be available.
>
> (7) Where else do terms such as "supreme, emptiness, void, taiji
> diagram, grand ultimate" etc. appear and what do they associate with,
> infer or imply?
Daoism or Taoism and the Book of Changes...origin and creation...
>
> (8) Final question: if Ma Diao is related to Mahjong even remotely,
> would they share something common in concept (like Void, Taiji
> diagram, Ultimate, Emptiness, etc.) other than so-called "Cash-suited"
> idea?
This is a tough question for some people. I will not ask it again.
> ++++++++
> P.S. Can the 3-suited Ma Diao deck on page 55 of Illustrated Book of
> the Mahjong Museum answer some or all the above questions?
The answer is YES.
Correction: that "3-suited" Ma Diao has 4 suites of cards as explained
in detail in another post. Besides the 3 suites of 9 cards, there are
the Red Flower, White Flower and Old-Thousand. These 3 cards do not
belong to the 3 suites of 9's. They are on their own. As with
metaphors and Chinese symbolic language, the same words can mean
different in context.
For example, Red Flower cpold mean Male; White Flower could mean
Female, and Old-thousand could mean ten-thousand-things with humanity
included. Also Red Flower could be a symbol for Man, White Flower
could be a symbol for Heaven and old-thousand could be a symbol for
Earth.
Triplicity is a Chinese philosophical concepts. The idea of Heaven,
Earth and Man in harmony is a good example.
Therefore the three cards in the Ma Diao deck on page 55 of the
Illustarted Book of the Mahjong Museum are of major importantance to
the concept of the game. Any one ignoring these three cards jsut does
not understand Chinese culture and language.
Should the three key cards be qualified as a suite of their own?
Definitely.
> +++++++++++
Allan Lee
January 31, 2009