Excerpts of ancient Chinese novels mentioning Maque(long/Chinese)
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1903~1904:
http://bbs.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=wave99&message=9604
钱胡子当下叫娘姨撮台子。娘姨答应，拿出一副麻雀牌，派好筹码，扳了座位。钱胡子便对那娘姨道："阿珠，你替我碰两副，我去去就来。"一面又向众人告罪，登、登、登下楼而去。阿珠坐了钱胡子的座位，掳动麻雀牌，四人便钩心斗角，碰将起来。黄子文恰恰坐在阿珠对面，一眼望去，见阿珠蛾眉淡扫，丰韵天然，不觉心中一动。阿珠也回眼过来看看黄子文，见他把帽子脱了露出了头，就像毛头鹰一般，嘻开了嘴一笑。黄子文以为是有情于他，喜得心花怒发，意蕊横飞；只是碍金慕暾和时豪人，不然便要动手动脚起来。
一霎时间，碰了四圈，看看没有什么大输赢，四人立过身来，拈过座头。这一回黄子文是阿珠的上家，看见阿珠台上碰了三张九索，三张一索，又吃了三、四、五三张索子，轮到黄子文发牌的时候，黄子文故意把一张七索发将出来。阿珠把牌摊下一数：一索碰四和，九索碰四和，七索与二索对倒两和，加上和底十和，共二十和。一翻四十和，两翻八十和，三翻一百六十和。刚刚是时豪人的庄，十块底二四，要输六块四角洋钱。时豪人便鼓噪起来，说黄子文不应该发这张七索。黄子文听他埋怨，不禁发火，便睁圆了眼睛，对着时豪人大喝了一声。
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_029.htm
坐谈未久，已见娘姨进来排开桌子。派好筹码，议定章秋谷、陈海秋、王小屏与主人辛修甫四人一局，五十块底二四。秋谷道："我们彼此朋友，不见得想要赢钱。五十块底二四不太大么？"修甫道："我原没有什么一定，今天是陈海翁的意思，要略略碰得大些。"秋谷听是陈海秋要碰大些，就不开口。扳了位，轮该秋谷起庄，碰了两圈，台上甚是平稳，没有大牌。
秋谷正在起牌之际，蓦地抬起头来往对面一看，只见辛修甫背后坐着蟾珠，正在那里同一个二十岁上下的女子咬着耳朵说话。秋谷留心看去，见这个人的神气打扮不像娘姨，不像大姐，随身衣服懒散梳妆，却生得体态娇娆，风姿艳丽，一眼瞅着秋谷，正与蟾珠说话。秋谷见了他的面貌吃了一惊，寻思他这付神气好似二年前在天津东阎乐的陆畹香，越看越像，不觉看得出了神去，把手内的牌乱发起来。恰好秋谷自己的庄，修甫坐在对面，已经碰出三张西风，手中做的是万子一色，三张二万，三张白板，一对中风，一对九万，已经等张。秋谷自己手中本有一对中风，一张白板，恰好碰了三张一索，打算要发去白板便好等张，说也可笑，秋谷往对面看得认真，正在心中摹拟那陆畹香的丰度，不觉忘其所以，有些模模糊糊起来，本来要抽出白板，一个不留心误抽了一张中风出去，辛修甫"扑"的把牌摊了出来。秋谷见他和了这样一副大牌，又有三张中风，诧异起来，连忙把自己的牌摊出一看，见白板依然不动，中风却少了一张，方才晓得误发了一张中风，致被辛修甫和了一副倒勒，忍不住哈哈大笑道："我真是有些昏了，你们来看，喏，一对中风竟会打了一张出去，被他和了这样一副大牌，你说可笑不可笑！"
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_030.htm
且说章秋谷发错了一张中风，哈哈大笑。对面那人先前见秋谷看得诧异，已觉得有些好笑，及至见他翻出牌来，自家本有一对中风，不知怎的会误打了一张出去，忍不妆噗嗤"一声笑得扭过脸去，弯着腰，扶了修甫的椅背立不起来。秋谷见如此情形，更加狂笑。好容易大家收住笑声，方才算帐，秋谷自己的庄，要输一底多些码子，秋谷照数付讫。
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_030.htm
秋谷一面碰和，一面絮絮的问他别后的光景，畹香一一的告诉他，二人就谈个不祝那知秋谷一面同畹香说话，分了神思，早不觉又打错了几张牌。畹香在旁看得明白，恐怕他要输钱，叫秋谷不要和他说话，一心一意的碰和。秋谷那里肯听？
还是口中杂七杂八的寻着说话问他，一个不留心，发了一张东风出去，又被下家王小屏和了一副一百二十和的筒子一色。恰恰的小屏又是庄家，秋谷差不多又要输他半底码子，急得陆畹香和他嚷道："叫耐勿要说话，耐偏生勿旨，瞎碰一出，输得一塌糊涂，倪来替耐碰仔两副罢。"修甫也说秋谷心神乱了，不妨等畹香替你代碰两圈。秋谷不肯，笑道："你们就把我看得这般无用，输了两副就要请起替身来？通共碰了不到四圈，就见得出什么输赢么？"大家听了，不好再说，于是重复掳牌。
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_030.htm
轮到秋谷做庄，起出牌来。畹香看秋谷的牌时，只见一对东风，一对西风，一张南风，一张北风，还有三张万子，三张索子，两张筒子。秋谷把头摇了一摇，皱着眉头略略想了一想，不打南风，反打了一张索子出去。畹香见了，连忙把秋谷一拉道："耐打错仔一只牌哉。"秋谷不语，只叫他不要多言。接着王小屏打了一张东风，秋谷连忙一碰，便又发了一张筒子，下家不要。辛修甫便发了一张南风，接着王小屏又摸出一张北风，随手打出。秋谷见南风北风已经见过，打算他打北风，便先打了北风出去，再去摸牌。不料刚刚凑巧，摸起的牌恰恰是张北风，秋谷连忙把前发的北风缩了进来，打去一张筒子。辛修甫发出一张西风，秋谷又是一碰，再发一张索子。陈海秋见了，忙招呼小屏同修甫道："庄家东风西风一齐碰出，刚才又缩进一张北风，一定是手中做着四喜，我们须要小心。"秋谷微笑不语。
过了一转，秋谷又摸起一只南风，发出了一只索子，已经等张，南北风对碰和倒。恰好王小屏摸起一张南风，放在手中，正要发时，被陈海秋拦住道："南北风万发不得，庄家一定是等这两张。"小屏听了，只得扣住南风，拆了一张搭索子。轮到陈海秋摸牌时，刚正摸着一张北风，放在手中，向王小屏一扬道："我又摸得一只北风，大约庄家的牌被我们扣住的了。
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大家那里留心？只有陆畹香听秋谷碰了南风，发去九索，方觉恍然大悟，他用的是那欲擒故纵的法儿，暗暗甚是佩服秋谷的心机圆活。陈海秋坐在秋谷的上家，见秋谷才打北风，料他不要，便也打了一张北风，道："你刚刚不要北风，我且顶你一只北风何如？"扑的把牌打出。秋谷大笑一声，将牌摊出道："你现顶北风，我就现领你的盛情。"三家见秋这副牌和得诧异，一个个目定口呆，只把一个陆畹香喜得心花怒开，满心奇痒，张开了一张樱桃小口，笑得"吱吱格格"的再合不拢来。大家看了秋谷的牌，方才明白他拆掉北风对子，是要骗出王小屏的南风，却又明知陈海秋手中还扣着一张北风，所以翻转身来，重吊北风和倒。算一算，四喜要加三倍，不消说已经倒勒。秋谷这一副牌，就赢了三底半筹码，除了前输一底半之外，恰好还赢着两底。大家便重新洗起牌来。
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_098.htm
当下大家讲明打五十块钱一底的二四，大家扳了坐位便碰起来。碰了几副，叫的局已经来了，梁绿珠和陆丽娟坐在秋谷身后，默默的看他发牌，起先的几付牌，平平的都没有什么输赢。陈海秋碰了两圈，便叫林媛媛和他代碰，刚刚遇着他的庄，一起手便是中风开了个暗杠。陶观察又打了一张东风，林媛媛又碰了出来，转了几转，秋谷见林媛媛的牌只打了一张万子，便和陶观察同修甫道："庄家是万子一色，你们留神一点。"一句还没有说完，陶观察忽然打了一张发风出来，林嫒媛见了把牌摊出，计算起来四百和牌，给他和了一个倒勒。
ithinc
http://www.guoxue.com/minqingstory/9weig/9WEIG_099.htm
这番秋谷的庄，恰和了一付，又接着连了一付七十二和的筒子一色。接着，辛修甫和了一付，轮着林媛媛的庄。范彩霞在秋谷背后看着他起出牌来，也是平平常常的，不见得怎样好法。碰了两转，上家陶观察发出一张五索，秋谷不吃，顺手去摸一张东风来，打出一张四索。范彩霞看了也不开口，只把秋谷的衣服一拉，秋谷微笑摇头，一转过来，秋谷去起出一张三万，成了三四五万的一搭，便又打出一张六索。辛修甫见了诧异道："你与其拆掉四索六索，为什么不吃他的五索呢？"秋谷笑道："照这样的一付牌，就是和了也不过一个平和，有什么希罕。"等了一回，辛修甫发出一张南风，秋谷碰了出来，发出一张九索。这个时候，林媛媛早已碰了三张白板放在桌上，一转过来轮到陶观察发牌，陶观察却顺手发出一张东风来。林媛媛见了大喜，扑的把牌摊出，口中说道："难末咦敲着仔唔笃一记哉。"大家举目看时，原来是东风和一索对碰和出，是一付索子一色，里头还有三张八索，三张七索，又是个对对和。林媛媛屈指一算道："对对和要外加一翻，刚刚咦是一付倒勒。"林媛媛正在高兴，不提防章秋谷伸过手去，把那一张东风抢了过来。林媛媛嚷道："作啥呀，拿倪一张东风抢得去。"
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ithinc
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5467&a_id=22
一会子留学生也走上来，死活拖我叉麻雀。我推说不会，他们只得邀那姓郜的。于是姓郜的就和留学生夫妻兄妹四个儿叉麻雀。我在旁边闲看，这寡老也在旁边闲看，暗地把我袖子一扯。我见他们心都注在牌上，就趁便溜出来。这寡老随步跟出，向我道：'你怎么会到这里来，这里不是好地方呢。'我正要详细询问，那留学生已在里头唤我。寡老道：'这里不便讲话，明日六点钟岭南春三号聚会再谈罢。'我回到里头，只见那留学生嚷道：'单先生你来瞧，郜君这副牌这么和下来，倒说便宜，你看他便宜在那里。'我忙应道：'麻雀我是外教呢，看了也不懂。'口里虽这么说，走到郜老友面前一瞧，见了整整齐齐摊在台上，十四张都是万子，是一二三、三四五、四五六、五六七四搭牌，另外两张麻雀头，也是三万。郜老友道：'如何会错，我方才六万本是一扣，摸起了一张七万，才把六万打去一张的，现在来了张一万，和下来。十和一倍二十，二倍四十，三倍八十和，怎么会错。'留学生道：'差是原没有差，只成全我们少输了几个钱。你摸起七万，打掉六万，不过挺一四七二五八六门罢了，我做了你一定打掉七万的，打掉了七万不过七八两门不和，一万到六万一样要和的。你方才来一万，一样和下来，四万做了麻雀，一二三、三三三、五五五、六六六，要多到三副扣子，二十二起翻，一翻四十四，再翻八十八，三翻一百七十六和。你自己算算，钱要多进帐几许。'性郜的果然懊悔不迭。八圈麻雀碰完，天已凑夜。吃过晚饭，我就兴辞回家。
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叉麻雀
雀亦葉子之一，以之為博，曰叉麻雀。凡一百三十六，曰筒，曰索，曰萬，曰東南西北，曰龍鳳白，亦作中發白。始於浙之寧波，其後不脛而走，遂徧南北。筒，《正韻》「徒弄切，音洞，簫無底也，通則洞。」蓋筒即洞也，象其形也。索，《爾雅》「大者謂之索，小者謂之繩。」索取其貫，所以貫其筒也。《書·牧誓》傳：「索，盡也。」《周禮·夏官》注「索，廋也。」《禮記》注「索，散也。」三者皆非本旨，故不加說。萬，《前漢書·律曆志》：「記於一，協於十，長於百，大於千，衍於萬。」萬者，記其數也。萬或作万。《六書正譌》「或省作麻，非。」則俗字之誤也。龍鳳白，唐李翱《五木經》：「厥二作雉。」註，烏也，即鳳之類也。《五白涇》又曰告白，曰白厥莢八，白之類也。中發，當是《中庸》「發而皆中節」之義。東南西北，《晉書》：「王獻之數歲，嘗觀門生摴蒱，曰：『南風不競。』門生曰：『此郎亦管中窺豹，時見一斑。』」當是東南西北之始。抑又思之，麻雀，馬弔之音之轉也。吳人呼禽類如刁，去聲讀，不知何義，則麻雀之為馬弔，已確而有徵矣。宋名儒楊大年著《馬弔經》，其書久佚，是馬弔固始於宋也。筒，陰象也；索，陽象也；萬，數之極也，蓋本飲食男女之意也。其後以楮易竹，遂稱葉子，繪梁山盜一百八人於上，時尚無中發白東南西北也。至國朝，淮揚鹽賈盛行此戲，陶文毅嘗禁絕之。鹺商乃改繪梁山盜宋江貌如陶文毅，並其女公子。粵寇起事，軍中用以賭酒，增入筒化、索化、萬化、天化、王化、東南西北化，蓋本偽封號也。行之未幾，流入寧波，不久而遂普及矣。
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1922:
http://www.oa18.com/read/classic/2006-2/12/4.htm
黄大军机恰正同着卫显功对躺着抽鸦片烟，谈刚才叉麻雀，和出一对，到拦牌筒子清一色。黄大军机正说道："一只九筒，实在巧不过。假如你不把三万一拍，这九筒就抡不到我摸。没有这九筒摸着，即使和出，不过九筒一克，八和，底和十和，共是十八和起翻，十八、三十六、七十二、一百四十四和罢哩。大不了赢到多少呢？"
卫显功道："二四解，当庄和，一百四十四和，一百四十四、二百八十八、五百七十六，每家解五百七十六两银子。三五一十五、三七二十一、三六一十八，共总赢进一吊七百二十八两银子。"
黄大军机道："不是只得这点点，一吊多点银子吗？幸而你三万一拍，一只九筒拍过来了；我摸来一看，九筒，连忙暗降，我说最好的降底开花。降起来，恰巧一只一筒，等的是一四筒张子，那是算也不用算的了，一吊二百银子一家。一三得三、二三得六、三吊六百银子，畸数亏数，一点儿没有的......"
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1922:
http://www.oa18.com/read/classic/2006-2/12/7.htm
有天，林师爷喝了几杯酒，高兴耍钱，同言老五做局。言老五道："别的耍钱却懂不来，只有叉叉小麻雀，还可以应酬应酬。"
江一道："我们推两方牌九玩玩吧。你若懂不到，就同林师爷合做个庄家吧。小玩意，你们两家子合凑一吊银子来做本钱。"言老五笑道："我那里有这么许多银嗄！叉叉小麻雀，两三吊钱的输赢，消个遣儿，还可以应酬。除此之外，你们只管请，不要算我一个人数儿。"
江一不料言老五老定主意，不上他们的当，便掇转口风道："就叉几圈麻雀玩玩，也使得。"岂知言老五别的能耐却没有，叉麻雀的技艺是超超等，大有把握，可以操得必胜之权。嘴里虽说两三吊钱的输赢，可以应酬应酬，其实不论大小，都肯叉的。林师爷便说："叉麻雀也好，五百吊钱一底，四八解。"
言老五道："五百个钱四八解吧。"江一道："那是忒小了，也没兴会。"林师爷道："如此一千吊钱，二四吧。"言老五笑道："可不是同五百吊钱四八解一样吗？我们现钱，还是用筹码？"林师爷道："自然是现的。"言老五答应了。
ithinc
言老五道："那便拿去......。假如你们和了到拦牌，我使得不拿钱出来吗？"于是顶住了这个收常妙凤自然帮着言老五的。劝解道："既然说定现钱做输赢呢，自该不作兴欠的。真真输得多了，现钱解过三五千庄，短少两个，究竟不是说不出的话。如今只得第三副牌，一圈庄还没到，又不曾输过三底、五底，就要欠帐。怪不得言大少爷不肯，还是拿了出来再碰吧。"
林师爷道："身上没有呀！还要说吗？"妙凤摇摇头道："其实为难。碰到五百吊钱的四八，身上没有两三千吊钱，那里可以坐下去碰呢？"言老五道："也不用碰了。写张欠据来，约定几天还吧？还有七圈零一副牌。还清了钱，再碰也使得。"
妙凤道："很说得不错，言大少爷等着这里，林大老爷、江大老爷、方大少爷拿钱到这儿来还吧！说着端过三张信笺、砚台笔墨，放在桌上叫他们三个写契约。言老五道："人也写一张二千四百吊的契约来。"又递个眼风过去，人也会意，提笔就写。且叫妙凤做中人签了押。言老五又道："林、江二位，写在一张纸儿上，写四千八百吊。"
林师爷瞧着方人也已写了，没奈何，同江一两个人出面也写了。妙凤做中人签了押。立催着林师爷、江一立刻取了钱来，仍旧碰和，三副牌，碰他怎好意思呢。林师爷、江一也坐不住了，借势一溜烟走了。
ithinc
http://www.wxjy.com.cn/jysk/xdwx/luxun/aqzhengzhuan.htm
然而也偶有大可佩服的地方，即如未庄的乡下人不过打三十二张的竹牌，只有假洋鬼子能够叉"麻酱"，城里却连小乌龟子都叉得精熟的。
ithinc
http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
叉麻雀(将)与著围棋，都是玩艺之一种，但是本国人之对于麻雀(将)叉法，已经
数度改良，如老法叉，新法叉，筑双层方城，单层方城，又有自摸和，加倍赢，放人和，加
倍输，全求人，全不求人，除幺断九等种种方法，及日本人之围棋著法，亦与吾国少异，都
是自出心裁，逐次改良，经大众公认为妥善，未曾从扑克等法译出参加，观于玩艺之麻雀、
围棋，则改良如此-对于五千年学术之医学，则改良如彼，岂麻雀、围棋反重于医学欤?
ithinc
I havn't read through the above books. And for the hugeness of the
amount, it's hard to translate them all into English. I just give out
some views after my reading. If someone needs me to translate one or
several sentences, I'd like to.
1) "Cha maque"(叉麻雀) is also called "Penghu"(碰和) sometime.
Meanwhile, "penghu"(碰和) is another written game in other books. So
"maque"(麻雀) is probably developped on "penghu"(碰和). "Cha maque"
is also called "Kanzhu"(看竹, play bamboos).
2) "Maque"(麻雀) was pronounced the same with "majiang"(麻将) in
some regions.
3) Usually people play maque for 8 rounds and they changed seats after
finishing 4 rounds. The deal passes one by one after a hand is over
whether the dealer wins or not.
4) The dealer pays/receives double. There is no settlement between the
losers.
5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
Wind).
6) The initial points(a base) is 1000 fu. There is a limit of 300 fu
for a winning hand. It's called "Daole"(倒勒) or "Lanpai"(拦牌).
7) Bao rules exsited in some region at that time.
8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
1874(光、宣年间).
9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
Cheers,
ithinc
cymb...@free.fr
You are killing us! ;-)
Many thanks and congratulations for this wealth of new materials!
> I just give out some views after my reading. If someone
> needs me to translate one or several sentences, I'd like to.
Yes. That would help us, poor idiots who can't read Chinese.
Just a few comments.
> 1) "Cha maque"(???) is also called "Penghu"(??) sometime.
Yes. That was Andrew Lo's assumption in his contribution to the recent
catalogue "Asian Games". (He drew this conclusion from many popular
novels published in Shanghai in the 1880s.)
> Meanwhile, "penghu"(??) is another written game in other books. So
> "maque"(??) is probably developped on "penghu"(??).
The relationship between "penghu" and "maque" was discussed in this
group some years ago.
> "Cha maque" is also called "Kanzhu"(??, play bamboos).
Correct. (Although I think it would be better translated as "watch the
bamboos".)
I have found a few references of the early 20th century where mahjong
is alluded to as "bamboo", or "bamboo grove" ("spending one's time in
the bamboo grove" = "playing mahjong").
> 2) "Maque"(??) was pronounced the same with "majiang"(??) in
> some regions.
a) "Maque"(??) was pronounced 'maqiao': all authors -- Westerners or
Japanese -- who heard the name of the game in Chinese in around
1915-1925 heard 'maqiao'. Giles' Chinese-English dictionary of 1912 has
"ch'iao" as main entry, and "ch'ueh" (= pinyin 'que') as a secondary
pronunciation. (Now, it's the other way round.)
b) We know that some people also heard something like 'ma chiang'
(1912), 'matchang' (1921), 'ma chan' (1923, in Japanese katakana). For
example, K.T. Liou, a Chinese writing in French in Peking in 1921,
wrote about "Le jeu de matchang" (The game of 'matchang'), explaining
it meant "sparrow" and was the way it was pronounced there (meaning in
Peking).
> 8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
> 1874(?????).
Interesting. There are hints that point to a spread of the game to the
North first, before reaching Canton (where the game was hardly known in
1909.
By South of Yangtze you probably mean Jiangnan, don't you?
Again all my congratulations.
Cheers,
Thierry
Tom Sloper
>I havn't read through the above books. And for the hugeness of the
>amount, it's hard to translate them all into English. I just give out
>some views after my reading. If someone needs me to translate one or
>several sentences, I'd like to.
This is wonderful data, but the important thing for us is the dates. Your
first three posts cited a book dated ca. 1908 - your next two had no date -
your sixth post's book was dated ca. 1921 - your last post's book was dated
ca. 1936.
Generalities about data from such a wide spread of years don't tell us what
we want to know.
>1) "Cha maque"(∟e3?3?) is also called "Penghu"(?I?M) sometime.
>Meanwhile, "penghu"(?I?M) is another written game in other books. So
>"maque"(3?3?) is probably developped on "penghu"(?I?M). "Cha maque"
>is also called "Kanzhu"(?Y|?, play bamboos).
We need to know which names were used in what dates, please.
>2) "Maque"(3?3?) was pronounced the same with "majiang"(3??) in
>some regions.
In what years? Was this term used in 1908? Or just later?
>3) Usually people play maque for 8 rounds and they changed seats after
>finishing 4 rounds. The deal passes one by one after a hand is over
>whether the dealer wins or not.
In what years? All years from 1908-1936?
>4) The dealer pays/receives double. There is no settlement between the
>losers.
In all these novels from 1908-1936?
>5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
>called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
>Wind).
Also in 1908? Or just later?
"Fa" means "get," is that right? So "fa wind" means "get wind"?
>6) The initial points(a base) is 1000 fu. There is a limit of 300 fu
>for a winning hand.
In all the novels from 1908-1936? Or just some of them?
>It's called "Daole"(-?～?) or "Lanpai"(?米P).
What do those terms mean in English?
>7) Bao rules exsited in some region at that time.
Which time? 1908? Or only 1936?
>8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
>1874(ㄓ迆?B??|~?).
Wow!
>9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
Even in 1921 and 1936?
Thanks for finding all those excerpts, ithinc!
Tom
Cofa Tsui
EXCELLENT WORK! Yes, you really are going to kill us all ^_^
I believe there's going to be a long long discussion that would follow.
To make things look better, may I suggest the following "convention":
In order to display the Chinese fonts properly (if you would quote the
original fonts), please post on the Google website instead of using
your own email editor. Ithinc and I have the same experience: include
small amount of Chinese fonts on the Google site interface and it will
display well (if the system refuses your post, it means your post with
Chinese font is not accepted); Chinese fonts posted from an email
editor don't normally display properly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have had a quick review of the excerpts and would like to give these
brief comments:
a) Excerpts that come with references as to book title, author and
date, such references are provided at the top of the message.
b) One shall understand that Ithinc's excerpts are from different books
that may cover a wide range of time period; therefore, the contents
shall not be considered to be dealing with just one particular game
form for the entire time period. (Although all authors might be
describing the same game form(s) there was(were) popular at the time
period of writing.)
c) Overall, the excerpts give amble of information about:
- How the game is called
- The contents (playing pieces, and I would say, a full picture) of the
game
- How scores are derived
- Base value and payment structure are provided
(We might need to gather all info from different pieces and put
together again, though)
c) "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei Chao" written by Xu Ke in 1911~1912:
This excerpt contains info on the contents of the playing pieces of the
game "ma que," what the names (of the pieces and of the game) mean, and
approximate time it was formed.
d) Chapter 4 of "Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written by unknown in about
1922: http://www.oa18.com/read/classic/2006-2/12/4.htm
This post gives a very clear example of how scores are awarded.
In general, all of the excerpts, if scores and payments are provided,
indicate that there is NO settlement between non winning players.
e) "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:
http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
This is about how the game has been evolved/modified over time.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
With (d) above, I paid little more attention to excerpts that are close
to the 1920s. I noticed that "NO settlement between non winning
players" seems to be still the norm! This is a big contrast to those
books in the 1920s written mainly by foreign authors, who seemed to
have found the "CC-like" form only ("settlement between non winning
players" is an essential feature). Any comments?
Again, Ithinc, an EXCELLENT work!
-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Cofa Tsui
> >5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
> >called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
> >Wind).
Tom Sloper asked:
> "Fa" means "get," is that right? So "fa wind" means "get wind"?
"Fa" 发 (fortune) is the one used in "fa cai" 发财 (remember Gong Xi
Fa Cai 恭喜发财 in the Chinese new year greetings?). It's called
"Fa Feng" (Fortune Wind) in these novels. I don't understand why it is
called "Feng" (Wind)? Fa Feng is equivalent to Green Dragon in modern
mahjong.
Ithinc wrote:
> 6) The initial points(a base) is 1000 fu. There is a limit of 300 fu
> for a winning hand. It's called "Daole"(倒勒) or "Lanpai"(拦牌).
And Tom asked:
> In all the novels from 1908-1936? Or just some of them?
Not all the excerpts provide scoring details. Some talk about
activities among the characters and some about the game in general.
> What do those terms mean in English?
"Daole"(倒勒):
倒 "Dao" = Reverse
勒 "le" = 1. stop. 2. force. 3. carve. (as in my Chinese-English
dictionary)
"Lanpai"(拦牌):
拦 "Lan" = Block, hold back, bar
牌 "pai" = (as for "ma que pai", "mahjong pai")
Nothing seems meaningful except used as a game's term. This causes me
to compare this with the terms 辣 "la" (Cantonese "Laak"), 双辣
"shuang la" ("double laak"), and 三辣 "san la" ("triple laak"), in
HKOS. "Laak" is a short term to represent 4 fans (4 doubles), double
laak = 6 fans, triple laak = 8 fans.
Now we have "daole" representing a maximum number of fu and "laak"
representing a number of fans, would "laak" in HKOS be another feature
similar to the early years form that is not found in CC (1977) and
CC-like (1920s)?
In all these new excerpts "he 和" is used to represent the "scores" or
"points" of sets, not "fu 副" as used in a previous novel "Guangchang
Xianxing Ji". I have a feeling that "fu" (or "he") does not simply mean
points as used in CC (Millington); however, I can't tell at this point
if it shall mean anything different or anything specific, if any at
all.
-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Tom Sloper
>>>5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
>>>called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
>>>Wind).
Tom Sloper asked:
>> "Fa" means "get," is that right? So "fa wind" means "get wind"?
"Cofa Tsui" <cofa...@hotmail.com> wrote
>"Fa" ? (fortune) is the one used in "fa cai" ?? (remember Gong Xi
Fa Cai ???? in the Chinese new year greetings?).
Thank you, Cofa. I do know that the "fa" is contained in *gung hei fa choi*
and especially in *fa choi.* But my understanding was (please bear with me,
I'm trying to understand) that it is the entire two-character phrase *fa
choi* (fa cai) that means "fortune." According to Zhongwen.com, the single
character *fa* by itself means "shoot/issue forth" or "become/occur" or
"state/present."
And I know that in Japanese, the character is pronounced "hatsu" and means
"hit" (in keeping with the "shoot or issue forth" meaning listed on
Zhongwen).
Lastly, according to Zhongwen, the standalone character "cai" means "wealth"
(fortune).
I always explain to my mahjong students that although the character "fa"
means merely "get," the Chinese always immediately mentally add "... rich"
when reading or hearing the word "fa" (i.e., hear "fa" but think "fa cai").
Thus the character "fa" has an *implied* meaning of "fortune" but doesn't
*actually* mean "fortune."
Have I been teaching my students wrongly all these years? That's what I want
to know about "fa."
Ithinc wrote:
>>> 6) The initial points(a base) is 1000 fu. There is a limit of 300 fu
>>> for a winning hand. It's called "Daole"(??) or "Lanpai"(??).
And Tom asked:
>> In all the novels from 1908-1936? Or just some of them?
Cofa:
>Not all the excerpts provide scoring details. Some talk about
>activities among the characters and some about the game in general.
I assumed that to be the case. My question for ithinc is, "which novels
(written in which years) describe this exact scoring system?"
>"Daole"(??):
>? "Dao" = Reverse
>? "le" = 1. stop. 2. force. 3. carve. (as in my Chinese-English
dictionary)
>"Lanpai"(??):
>? "Lan" = Block, hold back, bar
>? "pai" = (as for "ma que pai", "mahjong pai")
>
>Nothing seems meaningful except used as a game's term. This causes me
>to compare this with the terms ? "la" (Cantonese "Laak"), ??
>"shuang la" ("double laak"), and ?? "san la" ("triple laak"), in
>HKOS. "Laak" is a short term to represent 4 fans (4 doubles), double
> laak = 6 fans, triple laak = 8 fans.
Thank you, I appreciate that helpfulness.
>Now we have "daole" representing a maximum number of fu and "laak"
>representing a number of fans, would "laak" in HKOS be another feature
>similar to the early years form that is not found in CC ... [snip]
In English CC rules, 4 fan is simply called "4 doubles." But if the Chinese
in the 1920s used the term "laak" for this, then no, it's not a difference.
It's just terminology.
>In all these new excerpts "he ?" is used to represent the "scores" or
>"points" of sets, not "fu ?" as used in a previous novel "Guangchang
>Xianxing Ji". I have a feeling that "fu" (or "he") does not simply mean
>points as used in CC (Millington); however, I can't tell at this point
>if it shall mean anything different or anything specific, if any at
>all.
I have a different "feeling," but OK, thanks.
ithinc
"cymb...@free.fr 写道：
"
> Just a few comments.
>
> > 1) "Cha maque"(???) is also called "Penghu"(??) sometime.
>
> Yes. That was Andrew Lo's assumption in his contribution to the recent
> catalogue "Asian Games". (He drew this conclusion from many popular
> novels published in Shanghai in the 1880s.)
list.
> > 2) "Maque"(??) was pronounced the same with "majiang"(??) in
> > some regions.
>
> a) "Maque"(??) was pronounced 'maqiao': all authors -- Westerners or
> Japanese -- who heard the name of the game in Chinese in around
> 1915-1925 heard 'maqiao'. Giles' Chinese-English dictionary of 1912 has
> "ch'iao" as main entry, and "ch'ueh" (= pinyin 'que') as a secondary
> pronunciation. (Now, it's the other way round.)
>
> b) We know that some people also heard something like 'ma chiang'
> (1912), 'matchang' (1921), 'ma chan' (1923, in Japanese katakana). For
> example, K.T. Liou, a Chinese writing in French in Peking in 1921,
> wrote about "Le jeu de matchang" (The game of 'matchang'), explaining
> it meant "sparrow" and was the way it was pronounced there (meaning in
> Peking).
I think the two statements are all right. "Maque" is a mandarin
pronunciation. It is pronounced "maqiao" in some Wuyu regions(mostly
Suzhou) while it is also pronounced "machiang" in another some Wuyu
regions(mostly Ningbo). Don't you think "maqiao" is somewhere similar
to "machiang"?
>
> > 8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
> > 1874(?????).
>
> Interesting. There are hints that point to a spread of the game to the
> North first, before reaching Canton (where the game was hardly known in
> 1909.
> By South of Yangtze you probably mean Jiangnan, don't you?
Yes, I mean Jiangnan. The novels I have read are mostly describing
Shanghai and Jiangnan, so I have no knowledge of how maque is in
Canton. I mention Beijing for I know the maque was popular in
Forbidden City. It should be spreaded there by the officials.
Cofa Tsui
[...]
> I always explain to my mahjong students that although the character "fa"
> means merely "get," the Chinese always immediately mentally add "... rich"
> when reading or hearing the word "fa" (i.e., hear "fa" but think "fa cai").
> Thus the character "fa" has an *implied* meaning of "fortune" but doesn't
> *actually* mean "fortune."
>
> Have I been teaching my students wrongly all these years? That's what I want
> to know about "fa."
Change a little bit could be better (^_^):
a) A single Chinese word normally can't tell the correct or exact
meaning; Chinese words used to be in *phrase* to be meaningful. As to
"fa", I think "dispatch", "issue", "fire" are all appropriate meanings
for just the single word. (You have: according to Zhongwen.com, the
single character *fa* by itself means "shoot/issue forth.")
b) Since Chinese words used to be in phrase to be meaningful, "fa"
(even not used in a phrase) being interpreted as "fa cai" or "fa da"
(having fortune, getting rich) is acceptable, and can be used that way.
c) I don't understand why you have "fa" = "get" in mind. How did you
get that? "Fa" does not mean "get." (Unless your answer to my question
suggests otherwise.)
Cheers!
-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Tom Sloper
> c) I don't understand why you have "fa" = "get" in mind. How did you
> get that? "Fa" does not mean "get." (Unless your answer to my question
> suggests otherwise.)
It's easy to see how I got that.
See Zhongwen.
"facai" = "get rich"
"cai" = "wealth" (riches, wealthy, rich)
So then what else could "fa" mean all by itself?
(That was my thinking.)
If the tile is supposed to mean "fortune" why aren't both characters "fa"
and "cai" present on the tile? Note: I did read what you wrote. And I don't
expect you to be able to justify why both characters aren't on the tile
(since it wasn't your decision). Just explaining myself.
Tom
ithinc
"Tom Sloper wrote：
"
[...]
> This is wonderful data, but the important thing for us is the dates. Your
> first three posts cited a book dated ca. 1908 - your next two had no date -
> your sixth post's book was dated ca. 1921 - your last post's book was dated
> ca. 1936.
post(Google Group reports an error), I had to split them. When some
post has no title,author and date, it is continuing with the upper one.
The order you mentioned above is different with it at google site.
ithinc wrote:
> >1) "Cha maque"(¡èe3?3?) is also called "Penghu"(?I?M) sometime.
> >Meanwhile, "penghu"(?I?M) is another written game in other books. So
> >"maque"(3?3?) is probably developped on "penghu"(?I?M). "Cha maque"
> >is also called "Kanzhu"(?Y|?, play bamboos).
Tom Sloper wrote:
> We need to know which names were used in what dates, please.
"Cha maque" was called "Penghu" mostly in "Jiu Wei Gui"(Zhang Chunfan,
1906~1910, this date is more accurate) and "Shi Wei Gui"(Lu Shi'e,
about 1911). In other novels, it is often said "after having Penged 4
rounds" etc.
>
> >2) "Maque"(3?3?) was pronounced the same with "majiang"(3??) in
> >some regions.
>
> In what years? Was this term used in 1908? Or just later?
In "A Q Zhengzhuan"(Lu Xun, 1921~1922), "Cha majiang"(叉麻酱) was
written. Lu Xun was a Shaoxinger, under the Hangzhou fu.
>
> >3) Usually people play maque for 8 rounds and they changed seats after
> >finishing 4 rounds. The deal passes one by one after a hand is over
> >whether the dealer wins or not.
>
> In what years? All years from 1908-1936?
Sorry, the 1936 one is not a novel. I got the above view through all
the novels, from 1903~1922.
>
> >4) The dealer pays/receives double. There is no settlement between the
> >losers.
>
> In all these novels from 1908-1936?
Yes, from 1903~1922.
>
> >5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
> >called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
> >Wind).
>
> Also in 1908? Or just later?
> "Fa" means "get," is that right? So "fa wind" means "get wind"?
"Fa Feng" is mentionged in "Fupu Xiantan"(Ouyang Juyuan, 1903~1904) and
"Jiu Weigui"(Zhang Shifan, 1906~1910). Feng is maybe a term, just
corresponding to Honors in CMCR.
>
> >6) The initial points(a base) is 1000 fu. There is a limit of 300 fu
> >for a winning hand.
>
> In all the novels from 1908-1936? Or just some of them?
Yes, all the novels from 1903~1922. As you know, the novels are not
rulesets. These things are not directly written in the novels.
>
> >It's called "Daole"(-?¡ã?) or "Lanpai"(?¦ÌP).
>
> What do those terms mean in English?
Cofa wrote:
> "Daole"(倒勒):
> 倒 "Dao" = Reverse
> 勒 "le" = 1. stop. 2. force. 3. carve. (as in my Chinese-English
> dictionary)
> "Lanpai"(拦牌):
> 拦 "Lan" = Block, hold back, bar
> 牌 "pai" = (as for "ma que pai", "mahjong pai")
>
> Nothing seems meaningful except used as a game's term. This causes me
> to compare this with the terms 辣 "la" (Cantonese "Laak"), 双辣
> "shuang la" ("double laak"), and 三辣 "san la" ("triple laak"), in
> HKOS. "Laak" is a short term to represent 4 fans (4 doubles), double
> laak = 6 fans, triple laak = 8 fans.
>
> Now we have "daole" representing a maximum number of fu and "laak"
> representing a number of fans, would "laak" in HKOS be another feature
> similar to the early years form that is not found in CC (1977) and
> CC-like (1920s)?
It is hard to translate directly. "勒子"(lezi) should be the same
word to "辣子"(lazi, Cantonese "Laak"). The concept is also inherited
in today's Shanghai Mahjong. For example, Pure Pungs in Shanghai
Mahjong is double lazi.
Tom wrote again:
> In English CC rules, 4 fan is simply called "4 doubles." But if the Chinese
> in the 1920s used the term "laak" for this, then no, it's not a difference.
> It's just terminology.
"Laak" is not fan or double or "4 doubles". It is a limit. There's a
similar concept "Yiman"(役满, I don't know the pronunciation in
Japanese) in Japanese Mahjong.
>
> >7) Bao rules exsited in some region at that time.
>
> Which time? 1908? Or only 1936?
I have no exact date, but it must be before 1911, for a poem mentioning
"bao" was quoted in "Qing Bai Lei Chao"(Xu Ke, 1911~1912).
>
> >8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
> >1874(£¤¨²?B??|~?).
>
> Wow!
>
> >9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
>
> Even in 1921 and 1936?
Yes, in all the novels from 1903~1922.
[...]
Cofa worte others:
> In all these new excerpts "he 和" is used to represent the "scores" or
> "points" of sets, not "fu 副" as used in a previous novel "Guangchang
> Xianxing Ji". I have a feeling that "fu" (or "he") does not simply mean
> points as used in CC (Millington); however, I can't tell at this point
> if it shall mean anything different or anything specific, if any at
> all.
It's not "he 和", but "hu 和". Either "hu 和", or "fu 副", or "fu
付", they point to the same thing. "hu" and "fu" are the same(or
similar) pronunciation in wuyu.
For the date of each term/rule is so important to some people, is it
necessary to discuss every novel in an individual thread?
ithinc
Cofa Tsui
news:8uKdnd_Ow4TX2y3Y...@giganews.com...
> "Cofa Tsui" <cofa...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> c) I don't understand why you have "fa" = "get" in mind. How did you
>> get that? "Fa" does not mean "get." (Unless your answer to my question
>> suggests otherwise.)
>
> It's easy to see how I got that.
> See Zhongwen.
> "facai" = "get rich"
> "cai" = "wealth" (riches, wealthy, rich)
> So then what else could "fa" mean all by itself?
> (That was my thinking.)
I knew it! An interesting and somewhat beautiful misunderstanding ^_^
>
> If the tile is supposed to mean "fortune" why aren't both characters "fa"
> and "cai" present on the tile? Note: I did read what you wrote. And I
> don't expect you to be able to justify why both characters aren't on the
> tile (since it wasn't your decision). Just explaining myself.
I can (justify...), as per (b) in my previous post.
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
ithinc
Chinese, people used to use single character. The appearing of the word
"fa" should be earlier than "facai".
ithinc
"Cofa Tsui 写道：
"
[...]
> c) "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei Chao" written by Xu Ke in 1911~1912:
> This excerpt contains info on the contents of the playing pieces of the
> game "ma que," what the names (of the pieces and of the game) mean, and
> approximate time it was formed.
>
>
> e) "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:
> http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
> This is about how the game has been evolved/modified over time.
>
Thank you very much for your comments. They would help others to reduce
questioning me:)
Two more comments:
1) "Qing Bai Lei Chao" and "Shi'e Yihua" are not novels. "Qing Bai Lei
Chao" is something like a cyclopaedia. "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei
Chao" could be found
at:http://www.caotang.net/index_Article_Content.asp?fID_ArticleContent=5396
2) "Shi'e Yihua" is a book about medicine. Lu Shi'e was firstly a
doctor then a writer. In his last life, he wrote a lot of books about
medicine.
Tom Sloper
"ithinc" <ith...@sohu.com> wrote\...
> The single word "fa" has a same meaning with "facai". In ancient
> Chinese, people used to use single character.
How about that! Thanks, ithinc.
Tom
John (Z R) L
> Chinese, people used to use single character.
Using a single character/kanji for a specific meaning seems to occur
extremely often in Japanese (kanji root + kana), I noticed for verbs
and adjectives in my textbook.
Sorry I didn't read the entire topic, but "Fa" is related to growing,
something occuring. Examples:
Fa da = developed
Fa mei = going mouldy
Fa cai = going rich
Fa ya = sprouting (plant)
Fa sheng = happen
Fa she = shooting
ithinc
"John (Z R) L 写道：
above. It's written in typical ancient Chinese. You can find most words
are single-character. Two-character words or multiple-character words
are few in ancient Chinese. The novels posted here are written mostly
in colloquialism of that time.
J. R. Fitch
I think of it as meaning "acquire", which is a synonym for "get" but has
connotations of "accumulate" which can be stretched to "plenty", as in
wealth.
--
J. R. Fitch
Nine Dragons Software
San Francisco, CA USA
http://www.ninedragons.com
Edwin Phua
And there is also "fa feng" ('to go mad'). :)
Perhaps this is in Modern Chinese, but 发风 Fa Feng (Fortune Wind)
does sound too close to 发疯.
Cheers!
Edwin Phua
Julian Bradfield
> You'd better read them at google site. For I cannot post them in one
> post(Google Group reports an error), I had to split them. When some
> post has no title,author and date, it is continuing with the upper one.
> The order you mentioned above is different with it at google site.
Please remember that Google Groups is simply one company's Web
interface to the Usenet News system. If you're posting to Usenet, you
should not make any assumptions about the order in which articles
appear - it may be different on every computer. So you need to put,
e.g. (1/2) and (2/2) in the subjects of split articles, so people can
tell the order you intend.
cymb...@free.fr
> It's easy to see how I got that.
> See Zhongwen.
> "facai" = "get rich"
> "cai" = "wealth" (riches, wealthy, rich)
> So then what else could "fa" mean all by itself?
> (That was my thinking.)
"Fa" in itself doesn't mean "get" but "produce" or "hit".
This is why Wilkinson was puzzled by the word "zhongfa" he saw stamped
on the box he bought in Ningbo (now in the British Museum) in 1890.
He tried to translate it, and -- where we would now say "Red
Dragon-Green Dragon" (zhong+fa), he came with "hit and go". Probably he
got it wrong, but that was the best literal translation he could give.
Cheers,
Thierry
cymb...@free.fr
> Two more comments:
> 1) "Qing Bai Lei Chao" and "Shi'e Yihua" are not novels. "Qing Bai Lei
> Chao" is something like a cyclopaedia. "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei
> Chao" could be found
> at:http://www.caotang.net/index_Article_Content.asp?fID_ArticleContent=5396
Just a bit of pedantic information on the books and authors unearthed
by "ithinc".
Ouyang Juyuan was Li Boyuan's collaborator and successor.
About Ouyang Juyuan I read this:
"Ouyang Juyuan continued in the footsteps of his mentor [Li Boyuan]. It
is said that he did much of the actual writing and editing of Li
Boyuan's papers and even some parts of his novels. He arrived in
Shanghai in 1898..." (from Catherine Vance Yeh, "Shanghai Love :
Courtesans, Intellectuals, and Entertainment Culture, 1850-1910",
Seattle, WA : University of Washington Press, 2006, and not a word on
mahjong!!)
Zhang Chunfan (ca. 1875-1908), Jiu wei gui = The Nine-Tailed Turtle, a
novel which was published in Shanghai in 1910. (There is a French
doctoral thesis by Jean Duval, 1975, on this novel.)
Lu Shi'e's Shiwei gui = The Ten-Tailed Turtle, is commented upon thus:
"This little-known novel is an amusing spoof of the more famous Jiuwei
gui [by Zhang Chunfan], but written in vernacular Chinese."
Xu Ke's 'Qing bai leichao' ("Classified Anecdotes of the Qing
Dynasty"), was published in Shanghai in 1917. It is not unknown to us.
There are a few threads which discussed some mahjong details from this
large "encyclopedia" of daily life. (Type "Xu Ke" in the "Search in
this group" box.)
Cheers,
Thierry
ithinc
1892~1894:
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5601&a_id=26
庄荔甫忽然想起，欲有所问，却为吴松桥、张小村两人一心只想碰和，故意摆庄豁拳，叉断话头。等至出局初齐，张小村便怂恿陈小云碰和。小云问筹码若干，小村说是一百块底。小云道："忒大哉。"小村极力央求应酬一次，吴松桥在旁帮说。陈小云乃问洪善卿："我搭耐合碰阿好？"善卿道："我匆会碰末，合啥嗄？要末耐搭荔甫合仔罢。"小云又问庄荔甫，荔甫转向施瑞生道："耐也合点。"瑞生心中亦有要事，慌忙摇手，断不肯合。
于是陈小云、庄荔甫言定输赢对拆，各碰四圈。李鹤汀道："要碰和末，倪酒（要勿）吃哉。"施瑞生听说，趁势告辞，仍和陆秀宝同去。张小村不知就里，深致不安，并恐洪善卿扫兴，急取鸡缸杯筛满了酒，专敬五拳。吴松桥也代主人敬了洪善卿五拳。十杯豁毕，局已尽行，惟留下杨媛媛连为牌局。众人略用稀饭而散。
登时收过台面，开场碰和。张小村问洪善卿："阿高兴碰两副？"善卿说："真个勿会碰。"吴松桥道："看看末就会哉。"洪善卿即拉只凳子坐于张小村、吴松桥之间，两边骑看。杨媛媛自然坐李鹤汀背后。庄荔甫急于吸烟，让陈小云先碰。
ithinc
三家筹码交清，庄荔甫复道："该副牌，阿是该应打六筒？耐看，一四七筒，二五八筒，要几花和张哚。"吴松桥沉吟道："我说该应打七筒，打仔七筒，不过七八筒两张勿和，一筒到六筒一样要和。难一筒和下来，多三副掐子，廿二和加三倍，要一百七十六和哚，耐去算囗。"张小村道："蛮准，小云打差哉。"庄荔甫也自佩服。李鸿河道："耐吸几个人才有多花讲究，啥人高兴去算俚嗄！"说着，便历乱掳牌。
洪善卿在傍，默默寻思这副牌，觉得各人所言皆有意见，方知碰和亦非易事，不如推说不会，作门外汉为妙。为此无心再看，讪讪辞去。杨媛媛坐了一全，也自言归。
比及八圈满庄，已是两点多钟了。吴松桥、张小村皆为马桂生留下，其余三人不及再用稀饭，告别出门。
ithinc
1892~1894:
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5601&a_id=13
吴松桥举杯让客，周少和道："吃仔酒晚歇勿好碰和，倒是吃饭罢。"松桥乃让赵朴斋道："耐勿碰和，多吃两杯。"朴斋道："我就吃两杯，耐（要勿）客气。"张小村道："我来陪仔耐吃一杯末哉。"于是两人干杯对照。及至赵朴斋吃得有些兴头，却值李鹤汀来了，大家起身，请他上坐。李鹤汀道："我吃过哉。耐哚四家头阿曾碰歇和？"吴松桥指赵朴斋道："俚勿会碰，等耐来里。"
周少和连声催饭。大家忙忙吃毕，揩把面，仍往亭子里来，却见靠窗那红木方桌已移在中央，四枝膻烛点得雪亮，桌上一副乌木嵌牙麻雀牌和四分筹码，皆端正齐备。吴松桥请李鹤汀上场，同周少和、张小村拈阄坐位。金姐把各人茶碗及高装糖果放在左右茶几上。李鹤汀叫拿票头来叫局。周少和便替他写，叫的是尚仁里杨媛媛。少和问："阿有啥人叫？"张小村说："倪勿叫哉。"吴松桥道："朴斋叫一个罢。"赵朴斋道："我匆碰和末，叫啥局囗？"张小村道："阿要我搭耐合仔点？"李鹤汀道："合仔蛮好。"张小村道："写末哉：西棋盘街聚秀堂陆秀宝。"周少和一并写了，交与金姐。吴松桥道："让俚少合仔点罢，倘忙输得大仔好像难为情。"张小村道："合仔二分末哉。"赵朴斋道："二分要几花嗄？'调少和道："有限得势，输到十块洋钱碰满哉。"朴斋不好再说，却坐在张小村背后看他碰了一圈庄，丝毫不懂，自去榻床躺下吸烟。
ithinc
http://bbs4.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=wave99&message=7041
故此阿珍的牌，愈和愈旺，后来竟和出一副索子三台的倒勒牌来，乃是中风一碰，自板
一，九索暗杠，五索一碰，等的是三索麻雀。因摸着了一只一索，把三索打去，没有人要，一个
圈子一摸，又是一只一索。和了下来算一算时，对对和，一共四百九十六和，作三百和倒勒。阿珍
只喜得眉花眼笑。这一副牌，乃是冶之的庄家，被他敲了一下。冶之摇摇头道："怎么有这好大的
牌！"志和道："不但牌脚好大，你看他和的乃是只一索麻雀，我这里已有了一对一索，他偏偏还
会自摸，你想这一只可算会摸得很！"阿珍道："一索麻雀，乃是摸起了把三索掉的，刚巧一个圈
子，又摸了一只一索，成了个对对和，真是难得！"少霞道："若然你摸不到这一索，怎么碰得出
对对和来？这多是你会摸一索的好处。"
众人闻言，一齐大笑，多说："看不出阿珍会摸的是一索，会碰的是对对和。"少霞道："你
们还不晓得么？他本来最会碰自摸一索的对对和！"阿珍被众人一嘲，心上已有些不甚自然，又听
少霞这样的说，不由不脸上红红儿的，向少霞连啐数口，把牌一推，假意发怒道："人家替你正正
经经的碰和，好容易和了一副倒勒，五十块洋钱底码么二解，闲家十五，庄家三十，赢了六十块钱，
好话不说一声，倒说人家会摸的是一索，会碰的是对对和。
cymb...@free.fr
> c) "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei Chao" written by Xu Ke in 1911~1912:
> This excerpt contains info on the contents of the playing pieces of the
> game "ma que," what the names (of the pieces and of the game) mean, and
> approximate time it was formed.
Xu Ke (published in 1917) does not give rules. He is more interested in
the origins - money-suited card games (like 'mohu' and 'penghu'), salt
merchants of the Huai Valley around 1830 then Taipings... - and
etymology (highly fanciful) of the game than in its actual rules.
> d) Chapter 4 of "Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written by unknown in about
> 1922
> This post gives a very clear example of how scores are awarded.
> In general, all of the excerpts, if scores and payments are provided,
> indicate that there is NO settlement between non winning players.
We would be very grateful to you if you could at least summarise what
this anonymous piece ("The Officials' Latest Secret History"?) says
exactly.
> e) "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:
> http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
> This is about how the game has been evolved/modified over time.
We would very much like to know what Lu Shi'e, also the author of
Shiwei gui ("The Ten-Tailed Turtle"), 1911, says about the evolution
(history?) of the game!
Cofa
>With (d) above, I paid little more attention to excerpts that are
>close to the 1920s. I noticed that "NO settlement between non
>winning players" seems to be still the norm! This is a big contrast
>to those books in the 1920s written mainly by foreign authors,
>who seemed to have found the "CC-like" form only ("settlement
>between non winning players" is an essential feature).
Indeed, this is a reversal of common opinion. The picture we now have
from original Chinese sources tells us that there was a somewhat
standard form played in Shanghai in the first decades of the 20th
century, that did not involve settlement of score between non-winning
players. But apart from this, I don't see many differences from CC...
Did the "foreign authors" invent this feature? No. Even if we have no
100 per cent-guaranteed pure Chinese sources, it would be unreasonable
to assume Wilkinson and Mauger, not to mention many 1920's authors
(some of whom were Chinese) who were close to the Mahjong Heimat,
invented it. It really existed in China. Perhaps not in Shanghai or in
Jiangnan ("Wuyu country"), although Shanghai was the best place where
Westerners could encounter a Chinese game.
Also settlement of score between non-winning players was not unknown to
Chinese card games. For example, we find it used in the game 'sise pai'
as played in the 19th century with 'chess cards".
Cheers,
Thierry
msta...@aol.com
[snip]
> 5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
> called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
> Wind).
Hello ithinc. May I too, thank you for this wealth of information. I
suspect it will give us much to ponder over for some time to come. I
have 4 questions that I hope you can answer for me?
Can you tell me the earliest mention of these tiles as "Zhong Feng" and
"Fa Feng"?
[snip]
> 8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
> 1874(光、宣年间).
Can you tell me the text from which you got this piece of information?
Also, Does the text actually say the game was called 'maque' from 1874?
> 9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
Does this piece of information relate to the time from 1874?
Cheers
Michael
ithinc
"msta...@aol.com 写道：
"
> ithinc wrote:
> [snip]
> > 5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
> > called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
> > Wind).
>
> Hello ithinc. May I too, thank you for this wealth of information. I
> suspect it will give us much to ponder over for some time to come. I
> have 4 questions that I hope you can answer for me?
No problem. It's really too much information for us all. I'm also
reading the related books and try to find more valuable info.
>
> Can you tell me the earliest mention of these tiles as "Zhong Feng" and
> "Fa Feng"?
As I have read, "Zhong Feng" was mentioned the earliest in "Haishang
Fanhua Meng" written by Sun Jiazhen in 1898 and "Fa Feng" was mentioned
the earliest in "Fupu Xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in 1903~1904.
>
> [snip]
> > 8) Maque was popular at least in Beijing and Southern of Yangtse from
> > 1874(光、宣年间).
>
> Can you tell me the text from which you got this piece of information?
> Also, Does the text actually say the game was called 'maque' from 1874?
I got this mainly from "Qing Bai Lei Chao".
"光、宣間，麻雀盛行，達乎諸侯大夫及士庶人". In the
period of Guangxu(1874~1908) and Xuantong(1908~1911), Maque was popular
in the officials and common people. 1874 was not actually mentioned but
"Maque" was.
>
> > 9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
>
> Does this piece of information relate to the time from 1874?
This statement is my estimation, for in all the novels I have
read(1892~1922), I haven't found flowers tiles mentioned.
ithinc
ithinc
> > > 9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
> >
"ithinc 写道：
> > Does this piece of information relate to the time from 1874?
> This statement is my estimation, for in all the novels I have
> read(1892~1922), I haven't found flowers tiles mentioned.
It's also mentioned in Xu Ke's "Qing Bai Lei Chao"
"凡一百三十六"(totally 136 tiles).
ithinc
ithinc
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5467&a_id=22
一会，这寡老纠合我们叉麻雀。我当时还有甚定力来抵拒，自然谨遵台命，就在他房间里搬开桌子来叉麻雀。叉的是二十块底二四小麻雀，叉到八圈结帐，我只输了三十多块，那朋友输了二十多块，姓郜的只输得十几块，都是这寡老一家赢的。临末还要我们每个人拿出三块钱头钱来。
Chapter 29 of "Shi Wei Gui" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1911:
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5467&a_id=23
于是康小姐、王珍珠、费太太、费大小姐四个人扳庄入座，碰的乃是一百块洋钱一底的，二四麻雀。叉毕四圈，天已凑夜，周凤姑邀请众人到外边去便饭。这席菜是本厨房办的，烧得十分精致。周凤姑亲自陪席，殷勤劝酒。费太太等因为麻雀没有终局，不敢尽量，覆杯，告醉。吃毕夜饭，重行扳庄。费大小姐手色盛起来，连和几副大牌。结末庄轮到费太太，又和下一副倒勒三百和大脾。碰完结帐，费大小姐赢了一百八十五元，费太太赢了九十七元，康小姐最输，输到二百十元，王珍珠只输得七十二元。
Chapter 30 of "Shi Wei Gui" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1911:
http://fiction.workgroup.cn/Article.Aspx?t_id=5467&a_id=24
早有娘姨上来调开桌子，摆上牙牌筹码。巧宝、凤姑、小燕、咸贵四个子扳庄入座。这一回叉得大了，是一千块底么半头。起初两圈，没甚进出。第三圈挨着咸贵做庄，小燕和下副三番倒勒牌。刚刚敲一记庄，是发财一扣，北风坐着开拱，九万一扣，二万一对，五六七万一搭。接着便是凤姑做庄，又连和了两副大脾，一副是九十六和同子清一色，一副是三元格倒勒三百和。后四圈重新扳，庄张咸贵输掉了锋头，捏着很好的牌，总是和不出。就和出副巴，也不过是平和起码牌。碰完结帐，张咸贵足足输了两底半码子，输的他面孔都失色。
ithinc
"ithinc 写道：
"
> "Tom Sloper wrote：
> "
> [...]
> ithinc wrote:
> > >5) Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng"(Centre Wind). White Dragon is
> > >called "Bai Ban"(White Board). Green Dragon is called "Fa Feng"(Fa
> > >Wind).
> >
> > Also in 1908? Or just later?
> > "Fa" means "get," is that right? So "fa wind" means "get wind"?
> "Fa Feng" is mentionged in "Fupu Xiantan"(Ouyang Juyuan, 1903~1904) and
> "Jiu Weigui"(Zhang Shifan, 1906~1910). Feng is maybe a term, just
> corresponding to Honors in CMCR.
Green Dragon is called "Fa Cai" in "Shi Wei Gui"(Lu Shi'e, about 1911).
Except the three novels, I haven't found Green Dragon mentioned in
others.
msta...@aol.com
> "msta...@aol.com 写道：
> > Can you tell me the earliest mention of these tiles as "Zhong Feng" and
> > "Fa Feng"?
>
> As I have read, "Zhong Feng" was mentioned the earliest in "Haishang
> Fanhua Meng" written by Sun Jiazhen in 1898 and "Fa Feng" was mentioned
> the earliest in "Fupu Xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in 1903~1904.
Hello ithinc. Very interesting. As I report in one of my articles on
earlier tile sets, 'zhong' was included in the "four points of the
compass" group. I have inferred that this is what the author would have
called them as he describes four other tiles as "rulers of the four
points of the compass". In this very early tile set there was no 'fa'
tile.
> > Can you tell me the text from which you got this piece of information?
> > Also, Does the text actually say the game was called 'maque' from 1874?
>
> I got this mainly from "Qing Bai Lei Chao".
> "光、宣間，麻雀盛行，達乎諸侯大夫及士庶人". In the
> period of Guangxu(1874~1908) and Xuantong(1908~1911), Maque was popular
> in the officials and common people. 1874 was not actually mentioned but
> "Maque" was.
Ah yes. Xu Ke. I also refer to his descriptions in one of my articles.
It is interesting to note that when he referred to the extent of the
period the game was popular, he may have had to use the name of the
game as it was called circa 1917 - cha maque - since this relevant part
of his report is about the contemporary game,including its name.
> > > 9) There are 136 tiles and no flowers in a maque set.
> >
> > Does this piece of information relate to the time from 1874?
> This statement is my estimation, for in all the novels I have
> read(1892~1922), I haven't found flowers tiles mentioned.
That is my experience. I have reported at least eight tile sets from
the period 1873 to 1909. None specifically have or mention flower
tiles, although four of them do have extra tiles. The 1st sight of
these tiles is in the Culin set of 1909, collected in Shanghai.
Cheers
Michael
Cofa Tsui
> Cofa Tsui a écrit :
[...]
> > d) Chapter 4 of "Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written by unknown in about
> > 1922
> > This post gives a very clear example of how scores are awarded.
> > In general, all of the excerpts, if scores and payments are provided,
> > indicate that there is NO settlement between non winning players.
>
> We would be very grateful to you if you could at least summarise what
> this anonymous piece ("The Officials' Latest Secret History"?) says
> exactly.
I'll try to do that soon -:)
> > e) "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:
> > http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
> > This is about how the game has been evolved/modified over time.
>
> We would very much like to know what Lu Shi'e, also the author of
> Shiwei gui ("The Ten-Tailed Turtle"), 1911, says about the evolution
> (history?) of the game!
I'll try to do that soon -:)
> >With (d) above, I paid little more attention to excerpts that are
> >close to the 1920s. I noticed that "NO settlement between non
> >winning players" seems to be still the norm! This is a big contrast
> >to those books in the 1920s written mainly by foreign authors,
> >who seemed to have found the "CC-like" form only ("settlement
> >between non winning players" is an essential feature).
>
> Indeed, this is a reversal of common opinion. The picture we now have
> from original Chinese sources tells us that there was a somewhat
> standard form played in Shanghai in the first decades of the 20th
> century, that did not involve settlement of score between non-winning
> players. But apart from this, I don't see many differences from CC...
Sorry I don't mean to create unnecessary arguments but at this point,
i.e., with so many evidences that "CC" is not the only original form of
the game (i.e., "mahjong"), we shall not continue to place "CC" in the
centre of all games in the discussions about the older evidences of the
game. Since the "standard form played in Shanghai in the first decades
of the 20th century" can be the ancestor of various later forms, all
later forms shall be referred to this circa 1903 form as the centre of
references.
Although "CC" doesn't seem to have many differences from the circa 1903
form, its difference in score settlement is a fundamental one that
would, in my opinion, qualify an argument that it has transformed from
the older form into a newer one.
> Did the "foreign authors" invent this feature? No. Even if we have no
> 100 per cent-guaranteed pure Chinese sources, it would be unreasonable
> to assume Wilkinson and Mauger, not to mention many 1920's authors
> (some of whom were Chinese) who were close to the Mahjong Heimat,
> invented it. It really existed in China. Perhaps not in Shanghai or in
> Jiangnan ("Wuyu country"), although Shanghai was the best place where
> Westerners could encounter a Chinese game.
It is highly unlikely that this feature was invented by foreign
authors. Instead, it has two possibilities:
1) "CC-like" was evolved from the circa 1903 form. From early 1900s
through 1920s - a good time any new features could be
evolved/developed. And the descriptions of Mauger's book (1915) could
be an indication of such transition, perhaps?
2) An older form has this feature and that "older form" is yet to be
discovered.
> Also settlement of score between non-winning players was not unknown to
> Chinese card games. For example, we find it used in the game 'sise pai'
> as played in the 19th century with 'chess cards".
Sise Pai (四色牌) doesn't seem to have "settlement of score between
non-winning players," according to info on hand:
- I have mentioned this in my "History of MAHJONG" page (item "D" at
http://www.imahjong.com/maiarchives205_ori.html).
- The link to Wai Wa Huang's article on the above page is no longer
valid. I have found the current location of the article:
http://www.ofb.net/~whuang/ugcs/gp/ssp/
It says (at section "Scoring"): Generally, points are turned into
monetary units (e.g., dollars) and are paid to the winner by the loser
(the player who discarded the winning card, or, if the card was drawn,
all players pay that amount). You can also penalize false claims by
making the false claimer pay everybody.
msta...@aol.com
Cofa Tsui wrote:
> > >With (d) above, I paid little more attention to excerpts that are
> > >close to the 1920s. I noticed that "NO settlement between non
> > >winning players" seems to be still the norm! This is a big contrast
> > >to those books in the 1920s written mainly by foreign authors,
> > >who seemed to have found the "CC-like" form only ("settlement
> > >between non winning players" is an essential feature).
> >
> > Indeed, this is a reversal of common opinion. The picture we now have
> > from original Chinese sources tells us that there was a somewhat
> > standard form played in Shanghai in the first decades of the 20th
> > century, that did not involve settlement of score between non-winning
> > players. But apart from this, I don't see many differences from CC...
>
> Sorry I don't mean to create unnecessary arguments but at this point,
> i.e., with so many evidences that "CC" is not the only original form of
> the game (i.e., "mahjong"), we shall not continue to place "CC" in the
> centre of all games in the discussions about the older evidences of the
> game. Since the "standard form played in Shanghai in the first decades
> of the 20th century" can be the ancestor of various later forms, all
> later forms shall be referred to this circa 1903 form as the centre of
> references.
>
> Although "CC" doesn't seem to have many differences from the circa 1903
> form, its difference in score settlement is a fundamental one that
> would, in my opinion, qualify an argument that it has transformed from
> the older form into a newer one.
Hello Cofa. 1stly, I think we would have to make sure that if any
relationship is attempted between various 'forms' then we would need to
make sure that these forms are from the same region or location and are
sufficiently close in time. This is so because of Babcock's observation
regarding the existence of a plethora of variations in different
regions of China during the period 1913 - 1923. What constituted the
differences between these to warrant them being separate variations is
still open to debate however. Would it have been possible to have
various game-plays in one region such as Shanghai for example? What
about the players mentioned in these texts bringing their own styles of
game-play from other regions of China etc?
Just some musings.
Cheers
Michael
Tom Sloper
>Two more comments:
>1) "Qing Bai Lei Chao" and "Shi'e Yihua" are not novels. "Qing Bai Lei
>Chao" is something like a cyclopaedia. "Dubo Pian" of "Qing Bai Lei
>Chao" could be found
>at:http://www.caotang.net/index_Article_Content.asp?fID_ArticleContent=5396
When I listed Qing Bai Lei Chao in the timeline (FAQ 11h), I didn't know
what to do with "Dubo Pian." The book's title, I assume, is "Qing Bai Lei
Chao" - but what is "Dubo Pian"? A chapter name or section title?
Thanks again, ithinc. By the way, I listed these discussion threads as a
source in FAQ 11 (the parent page for the other FAQ 11 pages).
Cheers,
Tom
ithinc
"ithinc 写道：
In "Ren Hai Chao" written by Ping Jinya(Wang Zhusheng, 1895~1980) in
1927:
Red Dragon is called "Zhong Feng" 5 times,
Green Dragon is called "Fa Cai" 1 time,
White Dragon is called "Bai Ban" 8 times or "Bai Pi" 11 times,
In a quoted poem, the three Dragons are called "龙凤白"(Dragon
Phoenix White).
Till now, I have not seen the saying of "Hong Zhong" or "Lv Fa" in
these novels.
Cheers,
ithinc
ithinc
"Tom Sloper 写道：
Yes, "DuBo Pian"(Gambling Section) is a section title. In this section,
many old games including Mohu, Penghu, Chamaque, etc, are mentioned.
cymb...@free.fr
> It is highly unlikely that this feature was invented by foreign
> authors. Instead, it has two possibilities:
> 1) "CC-like" was evolved from the circa 1903 form. From early 1900s
> through 1920s - a good time any new features could be
> evolved/developed. And the descriptions of Mauger's book (1915) could
> be an indication of such transition, perhaps?
> 2) An older form has this feature and that "older form" is yet to be
> discovered.
OK. I agree.
> > Also settlement of score between non-winning players was not unknown to
> > Chinese card games. For example, we find it used in the game 'sise pai'
> > as played in the 19th century with 'chess cards".
>
> Sise Pai (???) doesn't seem to have "settlement of score between
> non-winning players," according to info on hand:
That's the late 20th-century form, but *in the 19th century* there was
a settlement between losers. We owe this to a description of the game
by a Dutch ethnologist, published in 1886.
The game is roughly the same as Wai Wa Huang's but with a more
complicated scoring system. Wai Wa Huang's seems to be a simplified
modern version.
Thierry
Tom Sloper
"ithinc" <ith...@gmail.com> wrote
>Yes, "DuBo Pian"(Gambling Section) is a section title. In this section,
>many old games including Mohu, Penghu, Chamaque, etc, are mentioned.
OK, thanks!
Tom
Cofa Tsui
> Chapter 4 of "Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written by unknown in about
> http://www.oa18.com/read/classic/2006-2/12/4.htm
>
[snipped the original Chinese texts - Google cannot accept the post
with the Chinese texts]
The above link to the original texts doesn't seem to work at the time
of this writing.
The above script is about two players reviewing a winning hand of a
game event a moment ago. Let's call the players Huang (the winner) and
Wei.
1st section: Huang said: "A 9 Tan, it's just wonderful. Should you not
pung the 3 Wan, I'd not have the chance to pick this 9 Tan. Without
this 9 Tan, even if I win, it's only 9 Tan a pung, 8 hu, plus base win
10 hu, a total of 18 hu to start with doubling, eighteen, thirty six,
seventy two, one hundred forty four and that's it. Not a big deal for
the win?"
2nd section: Wei said: "Two-four structure, win as the zhuang, one
hundred forty four hu, one hundred forty four, two hundred eighty
eight, five hundred seventy six, each player shall release five hundred
seventy six taels silver piece."
3rd section: Huang said: "Isn't it just this little bit, a thousand and
a bit silver piece only? How kind you had punged the 3 Wan, and a 9 Tan
was thus punged to my way; when I drew and took a look, 9 Tan, opened a
concealed kong right away, and I told myself it'd better to be a kong
with a blossom. With the kong, it's lucky to be a 1 Tan, waiting for 1
and 4 Tan, thus making the counting with no difficulty at all, one
thousand two hundred silver piece a player. One times three equals
three, two trimes three equal six, three thousand six hundred silver
piece, no odd number and no spare change..."
Comments welcome!
-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
cymb...@free.fr
"Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written (1922)!
One question and two minor remarks.
- What's Tan?
- You have kept "hu": I suggest to write "points" instead. Not only is
this the obvious translation, but it helps reading the text in
English... (So many Chinese words in the English version make it
difficult to read and understand.)
- in 3rd section, please correct "two trimes"
Cheers,
Thierry
Tom Sloper
> 3rd section: Huang said: "Isn't it just this little bit, a thousand and
> a bit silver piece only? How kind you had punged the 3 Wan, and a 9 Tan
> was thus punged to my way; when I drew and took a look, 9 Tan, opened a
> concealed kong right away, and I told myself it'd better to be a kong
> with a blossom.
Any idea what "kong with a blossom" might mean?
Tom
ithinc
On Jan 20, 11:21 am, "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chapter 21 of "Haishang Fanhua Meng" written by Sun Jiazhen in 1898:
> http://bbs4.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=wave99&message=7041
Hence Ah Zhen's pai, the more times she won the more flourishing her
pai was. Sometime later she gone out with a Bamboo-3-doubles' limit
hand actually. The hand was a pung of Zhongfeng(Centre Wind), a
concealed pung of Baiban(White Board)(ithinc: there is something missed
in my referenced text and the concealed pung is my inference) , a
concealed kong of Bamboo 9, a pung of Bamboo 5 and waiting for the
sparrow of Bamboo 3. Then she drew a Bamboo 1 and discarded the Bamboo
3. No one claimed for it and after a round she drew another Bamboo 1.
So she won it and calculated: Pung Hand, totally 496 fu, cutted to a
300 fu's limit. [...] Fifty dollars a base and one-two structure,
non-dealers lost fifteen dollars, the dealer lost thirty dollars, so
totally (Ah Zhen) won sixty dollars. [...]
Hope it helps.
ithinc
John (Z R) L
It's probably "Kong Blossom", as in declaring a Kan/Kong and winning
with the replacement tile. Chinese name is "Gang Shang Kai Hua"
(Blossom on Kan), Jap name is "Rinshan Kaihou" (Blossom on mountain
peak?!).
Ithinc, I'm sorry but I can't read the Chinese text in this group (lots
of blank squares). I'm overseas in Malaysia (holiday still with
parents) and the slow internet cafe doesn't have Unicode or Chinese
simplified encoding, and it doesn't allow me to download/install it as
I don't have a "Windows XP CD". Is there a way you can make the text
show up nicely?
ithinc
On Jan 18, 9:58 am, "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chapter 14 of "Fubao xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in about
> 1903~1904:http://bbs.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=wave99&message=9604
Qian The Goatee thereupon asked the maidservant to prepare the table.
The maidservant complied, bringing out a set of maque pai, dispensing
jettons and they assigned the seats. Then Qian The Goatee told the
maidservant:"Ah Zhu, Peng some hands instead of me. I'll come back
soon." Then he said sorry to everybody and gone downstairs. Ah Zhu then
took Qian's seat and they rubbed the tiles, starting penging it. Huang
Ziwen happened to sit in the opposite side of Ah Zhu, [...]
After a while, having penged for four rounds, no big wins or losses,
the four people stood up and changed the seats. This time Huang Ziwen
was the Shangjia of Ah Zhu. Having seen that Ah Zhu had penged three
pieces of Bamboo 9, three pieces of Bamboo 1 and chowed three pieces of
Bamboo 3, 4 and 5, when it's Huang Ziwen's turn to make a dicard,
designedly he discarded a Bamboo of 7. Ah Zhu immediately pushed over
her hand and started counting: the pung of Bamboo 1 four fu, the pung
of Bamboo 9 four fu, the waiting by two pairs of Bamboo 7 and Bamboo 2
two fu, plus the basic winning ten fu, totally twenty fu. Double once
to forty fu, twice to eighty fu, thrice to one hundred and sixty fu. It
happened to be Shi Haoren's zhuang and ten dollars a base, two-four
structure, he needed to pay six dollars and forty cents. [...]
Hope it helps. Comments is welcome.
ithinc
cymb...@free.fr
> > Chapter 14 of "Fubao xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in about
> > 1903~1904:
(skip)
> Hope it helps. Comments is welcome.
> ithinc
Another excellent translation. Thank you.
I have the same question:
- how is the game called here? 'penghu' or 'maque'?
I see 'maque' is used for the tile set, but 'peng' used as a verb
meaning "playing 'penghu' (mahjong)".
Does that mean the game (as gameplay) was called 'penghu'?
Thierry
cymb...@free.fr
> > Chapter 21 of "Haishang Fanhua Meng" written by Sun Jiazhen in 1898:
(skip)
> Hope it helps.
> ithinc
Oh yes!
Very good! Thank you very much, ithinc.
Some questions:
- how is the game called here? 'penghu' or 'maque'?
- I see that 'maque' is used but as a technical word, "the sparrow of
3-Bamboo".
What is a "sparrow of 3-Bamboo"?
Thierry
ithinc
On Jan 24, 10:44 am, "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr> wrote:
> ithinc a écrit :
>
> > > Chapter 21 of "Haishang Fanhua Meng" written by Sun Jiazhen in 1898:(skip)
>
> > Hope it helps.
> > ithincOh yes!
>
> Very good! Thank you very much, ithinc.
>
> Some questions:
> - how is the game called here? 'penghu' or 'maque'?
> - I see that 'maque' is used but as a technical word, "the sparrow of
> 3-Bamboo".
> What is a "sparrow of 3-Bamboo"?
>
> Thierry
The game is mostly called "maque" in this book. There appears in the
whole book:
"Penghu" 3 times,
"Maque" 13 times including "Cha Maque" 4 times,
"Zhong Feng" 3 times,
"Fa Feng" 3 times.
"The sparrow of 3-Bamboo" in the context means the eye or the head.
It's also called "Sparrow Eye" or "Sparrow Head" in some regions
nowadays.
ithinc
ithinc
On Jan 24, 11:05 am, "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The game is mostly called "maque" in this book. There appears in the
> whole book:
> "Penghu" 3 times,
> "Maque" 13 times including "Cha Maque" 4 times,
> "Zhong Feng" 3 times,
> "Fa Feng" 3 times.
Sorry, the above statisctis is for "Fupu Xiantan". In "Haishang Fanhua
Meng" there appears:
"Penghu" 55 times,
"Maque" 29 times including "Cha Maque" 4 times,
"Zhong Feng" 2 times,
"Bai Ban" 1 time.
ithinc
ithinc
On Jan 24, 10:42 am, "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr> wrote:
> ithinc a écrit :
>
> > > Chapter 14 of "Fubao xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in about
> > > 1903~1904:(skip)
>
> > Hope it helps. Comments is welcome.
> > ithincAnother excellent translation. Thank you.
>
> I have the same question:
> - how is the game called here? 'penghu' or 'maque'?
>
> I see 'maque' is used for the tile set, but 'peng' used as a verb
> meaning "playing 'penghu' (mahjong)".
> Does that mean the game (as gameplay) was called 'penghu'?
>
> Thierry
Cofa Tsui
[Have you noticed the new interface of Google???]
On Jan 23, 2:38 am, "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr> wrote:
> Thanks very much Cofa for this translation of parts of Chapter 4 of
> "Zuijin Guanchang Mimi Shi" written (1922)!
>
> One question and two minor remarks.
>
> - What's Tan?
Tan is a modern term ^_^
I should have used "Tong" (or "Tongzi", pinyin, as for "circle", "dot",
etc).
> - You have kept "hu": I suggest to write "points" instead. Not only is
> this the obvious translation, but it helps reading the text in
> English... (So many Chinese words in the English version make it
> difficult to read and understand.)
I think keeping using "hu" (pinyin for the original Chinese term, as
for "fu" in another message) has a reason here. Other than people here
already know what they think it *might* mean; it might perhaps not
really mean "points" after all, IMO ^_^
> - in 3rd section, please correct "two trimes"
Thanks for pointing out!
Tom has asked:
Any idea what "kong with a blossom" might mean?
It's a direct translation ("降[杆]底开花 [gang] di kai hua"). It
should mean making a gong, drawing a replacement pai, and win. This win
happens to be on a 1 Tan replacement pai; I believe whatever pai is
irrelevant (he is "waiting for 1 and 4 Tan").
Note that, the reason I said this script had given a good example of
how scores are calculated is that, for the *same hand*, it tells us how
scores are awarded if it is just a simple *9 Tan pung hand* and a
special *9 Tan kong hand* with win on replacement pai.
As I mentioned earlier, I am curious about the relationship between "a
base", a "fu" (or "hu") and the actual "total scores" of a winning
hand. Can we find some hint from this script?
Cheers!
-----
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
ithinc
On Jan 24, 11:47 am, "Cofa Tsui" <cofat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [Have you noticed the new interface of Google???]
Yes, it seems not bad.
> Note that, the reason I said this script had given a good example of
> how scores are calculated is that, for the *same hand*, it tells us how
> scores are awarded if it is just a simple *9 Tan pung hand* and a
> special *9 Tan kong hand* with win on replacement pai.
>
> As I mentioned earlier, I am curious about the relationship between "a
> base", a "fu" (or "hu") and the actual "total scores" of a winning
> hand. Can we find some hint from this script?
Do you have any findings?
If a simple *9 Tan (concealed) pung hand*, as said in the text, it's 18
fu doubled three times to 144 fu. Everyone pays 144fu * $1000/1000fu *
4 = $576.
If a special *9 Tan (concealed) kong hand* with win on replacement pai,
it's 42(could selfmake 2 fu be added?) fu doubled four times to 672 fu
and cutted to 300 fu. Everyone pays 300fu * $1000/1000fu * 4 = $1200.
The "1000 dollars a base" is not pointed out explicitly but my
inference. The "two-four structure" is mentioned which means the
Zhuangjia pays/receives four shares while the others pays/receives two
shares.
In some of my other posts which are to be translated, sometimes it is
just said someone wins three and a half bases for a "Four Winds" hand.
>From the post a base is 1000 fu obviously.
ithinc
msta...@aol.com
> On Jan 24, 10:42 am, "cymba...@free.fr" <cymba...@free.fr> wrote:
> > ithinc a écrit :
>
> > > > Chapter 14 of "Fubao xiantan" written by Ouyang Juyuan in about
> > > > 1903~1904:(skip)
>
> > > Hope it helps. Comments is welcome.
> > > ithincAnother excellent translation. Thank you.
>
> > I have the same question:
> > - how is the game called here? 'penghu' or 'maque'?
>
> > I see 'maque' is used for the tile set, but 'peng' used as a verb
> > meaning "playing 'penghu' (mahjong)".
> > Does that mean the game (as gameplay) was called 'penghu'?
>
> "Penghu" 3 times,
> "Maque" 13 times including "Cha Maque" 4 times,
> "Zhong Feng" 3 times,
> "Fa Feng" 3 times
Hello ithinc. Thanks for the translations of the selected passages!
Will you be doing all of them?
I have some questions.
Can you tell me what names are used for the three suits, the 'winds',
and the 'dragons', in any of the Chinese texts?
Cheers
Michael
Do you have any idea why the 'wind' term is annexed to the 'zhong' and
'fa' tiles.
Tom Sloper
"John (Z R) L" <low...@gmail.com> wrote ...
> >Any idea what "kong with a blossom" might mean?
>
> It's probably "Kong Blossom", as in declaring a Kan/Kong and winning
> with the replacement tile. Chinese name is "Gang Shang Kai Hua"
> (Blossom on Kan), Jap name is "Rinshan Kaihou" (Blossom on mountain
> peak?!).
Got it, thanks.
> Ithinc, I'm sorry but I can't read the Chinese text in this group (lots
> of blank squares). I'm overseas in Malaysia (holiday still with
> parents) and the slow internet cafe doesn't have Unicode or Chinese
> simplified encoding, and it doesn't allow me to download/install it as
> I don't have a "Windows XP CD". Is there a way you can make the text
> show up nicely?
You should be able to download the functionality from microsoft.com without
needing the Windows CD. At least, that's what I found when I was installing
the functionality on my computer at work. Try using the Control Panel and
Microsoft.com. I didn't need the CD... Good luck!
Tom
Tom Sloper
"ithinc" <ith...@gmail.com> wrote
>"The sparrow of 3-Bamboo" in the context means the eye or the head.
>It's also called "Sparrow Eye" or "Sparrow Head" in some regions
>nowadays.
That makes a lot of sense! A Taiwanese player i played with a few years ago
called the eye or head "the mahjong" - but only if it was a pair of 2s, 5s,
or 8s. So you could mahjong with "no mahjong" if the pair was anything else.
And because mahjong = maque = sparrow, it makes a ton of sense to me that
the pair = sparrow.
Cheers,
Tom
ithinc
On 1月24日, 下午4时57分, "John (Z R) L" <low...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Any idea what "kong with a blossom" might mean?
>
> Ithinc, I'm sorry but I can't read the Chinese text in this group (lots
> of blank squares). I'm overseas in Malaysia (holiday still with
> parents) and the slow internet cafe doesn't have Unicode or Chinese
> simplified encoding, and it doesn't allow me to download/install it as
> I don't have a "Windows XP CD". Is there a way you can make the text
> show up nicely?
Hello John (Z R) L,
What's your suggestions? Make some pictures for you?
ithinc
On 1月24日, 下午7时38分, mstanw...@aol.com wrote:
> I have some questions.
> Can you tell me what names are used for the three suits, the 'winds',
> and the 'dragons', in any of the Chinese texts?
The three suits are called "Tong", "Suo", "Wan" in all the listed
novels although the Chinese characters are not always the same.
I don't see a collective name for the "winds" or the "dragons".
>
> Do you have any idea why the 'wind' term is annexed to the 'zhong' and
> 'fa' tiles.
As I have said in another post, in ancient written Chinese it used to
use single-character word. So in fact the Dragons were just called
"Zhong", "Fa" and "Bai", as the description in Xu Ke's "Qing Bai Lei
Chao". But when said in colloquialism, the common people didn't like
single-character words and so they were extened to two-character words.
As for why the "wind" term was annexed, I think it was a continuing
from the four real wind tiles. The "wind" was probably the collective
name for the seven honors, for in Shanghai Style Mahjong there's a
score element named "quan feng xiang" and in Nanjing Style Mahjong
there's a score element named "feng yi se" where "feng"(wind) refers
to all the honors.
ithinc
ithinc
> Hello ithinc. Thanks for the translations of the selected passages!
> Will you be doing all of them?
I'll try to when I have enough time. But it's really a hard work. I
only plan to translate the mahjong-related passages which seem to be
significant for mahjong rules/terms and I maybe ignore the background
descriptions.
ithinc
John (Z R) L
shareware website. I can partially understand the Chinese text, even
though it was written before the "Bai Hua Wen" modern movement...
msta...@aol.com
On Jan 25, 1:36 am, "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Your work is greatly appreciated! I hope you might be able to supply
also any mention of the tile set when it is described? Particularly any
terms relaling to the tile set. I know you have commented or provided
sime already, and many many thanks for those.
cymb...@free.fr
> Hello ithinc. Thanks for the translations of the selected passages!
> Will you be doing all of them?
Michael,
Please have a look at my recent post to the thread "A dated summary of
Chinese literary sources", it'll give you an idea of what has been done
already by ithinc, but also by Cofa.
Cheers,
Thierry
Cofa Tsui
On Jan 18, 3:57 am, "ithinc" <ith...@sohu.com> wrote:
> "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
>
[...]
I have said:
> > e) "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e in about 1936:
> > http://www.cntcm.org/cgi-bin/printpage.cgi?forum=6&topic=195
> > This is about how the game has been evolved/modified over time.
Thierry replied:
> We would very much like to know what Lu Shi'e, also the author of
> Shiwei gui ("The Ten-Tailed Turtle"), 1911, says about the evolution
> (history?) of the game!
Sorry that was quite a while ago. Finally here's my translation (tried
hard not to be my *interpretation* ^_^):
Cha maque (jiang) as to weiqi [围棋 weiqi, "go"], is a type of game
arts [玩艺 wanyi], but the way the nation have been playing maque
(jiang) has undergone several changes for good. For example the old
method, new method, building double storey square, single storey
square. And there are selfmake win, double win, discard win, double
loss, all begged-for [全求人 quan qiu ren, "(pais are) all begged
for, or obtained, from others"], all self-help [opposite of the
previous], one and nine excluded etc. And the way the Japanese playing
go is quite similar to ours. We all make changes on our own, improve
them bit by bit, until being accepted by the public as perfect. We
never got any ideas from the way poker etc are played
[未曾从扑克等法译出参加]. These are about the game arts like
maque, weiqi, and their improvements are like this. With respect to
[our] five thousand year old academic in medical science, the
improvements are like this. Are maque, weiqi more important than
medical science?
P.S. The name of the article (陆士谔医话) might have been Lu Shi'e
Yihua in standard pinyin. I didn't see the original Chinese texts as it
took very long time but the page still didn't display.
===========
Would any of these terms, building double storey square, single storey
square, double loss and one and nine excluded, be familiar or strange
to you?
As always, comments welcome!
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
msta...@aol.com
On Jan 25, 1:21 am, "ithinc" <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1月24日, 下午7时38分, mstanw...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I have some questions.
> > Can you tell me what names are used for the three suits, the 'winds',
> > and the 'dragons', in any of the Chinese texts?
> The three suits are called "Tong", "Suo", "Wan" in all the listed
> novels although the Chinese characters are not always the same.
Hello ithinc. Thank you for replying.
Can you list for me the different Chinese Characters used for Tong, and
Suo and Wan?
> I don't see a collective name for the "winds" or the "dragons".
>
>
>
> > Do you have any idea why the 'wind' term is annexed to the 'zhong' and
> > 'fa' tiles.
> As I have said in another post, in ancient written Chinese it used to
> use single-character word. So in fact the Dragons were just called
> "Zhong", "Fa" and "Bai", as the description in Xu Ke's "Qing Bai Lei
> Chao". But when said in colloquialism, the common people didn't like
> single-character words and so they were extended to two-character words.
> As for why the "wind" term was annexed, I think it was a continuing
> from the four real wind tiles. The "wind" was probably the collective
> name for the seven honors, for in Shanghai Style Mahjong there's a
> score element named "quan feng xiang" and in Nanjing Style Mahjong
> there's a score element named "feng yi se" where "feng"(wind) refers
> to all the honors.
Interesting. As you may know, one of the earliest tile sets has the
'zhong' tile listed as being the fifth 'Direction'. In that set there
is no Fa tile, but there are 8 blank tiles.
Cheers
Michael
John (Z R) L
have a suspicion that this is where the Japanese pronounciation "Pin
zu" came from even though they use the kanji "筒" (cylinder/pipe) in
place of "餅".
Bamboos, I hear my cousins say "Tiao zi" (条子) all the time. 条 is
a counting unit for fish and maybe other long thin objects,
Shanghainese people say 条子 as well I think. And there is "Suo zi"
(索子) ropes, which I always say "souzu".
Wan, I only know of "wan zi" (万/萬 子) 10000s. And there was one of
those really old Mj sets that had "品 pin, product" to replace the
"万/萬".
cymb...@free.fr
>> "Shi'e Yehua" written by Lu Shi'e i
> Sorry that was quite a while ago. Finally here's my translation (tried
> hard not to be my *interpretation* ^_^)
Thanks very much. Very interesting!
> Cha maque (jiang) as to weiqi [?? weiqi, "go"], is a type of game
> arts [?? wanyi],
Does that mean Lu Shi'e uses both words for mahjong?
> Would any of these terms, building double storey square, single storey
> square, double loss and one and nine excluded, be familiar or strange
> to you?
As far as I know, I have never met these expressions.
And I hardly understand what they mean. Is a "double storey square"
related to the wall?
Regards,
Thierry
msta...@aol.com
> For Tong (dots), I have also heard of "Bing zi" (餅子) biscuit. I
> have a suspicion that this is where the Japanese pronounciation "Pin
> zu" came from even though they use the kanji "筒" (cylinder/pipe) in
> place of "餅".
Hello John. Yes, I too have seen 'Bing zi'. Specifically in Mauger 1915
and in Dai Yu'an (1934). The latter is what you helped me translate and
is a dewcription of an early tile set dating from the period 1884 -
1892.
'Tong zi' I thought was a reference to 'copper' = 'cash' ~ 'circles'?
> Bamboos, I hear my cousins say "Tiao zi" (条子) all the time. 条 is
> a counting unit for fish and maybe other long thin objects,
> Shanghainese people say 条子 as well I think. And there is "Suo zi"
> (索子) ropes, which I always say "souzu".
Now the 'Tiao zi' is very interesting. Fish iconography has appeared on
money suited playing cards containing four suits and (if my memory is
ok) three suits. I also know of a mahjong tile set of circa 1923 origin
that has an entire suit displaying fish instead of 'bamboos'.
'Suo zi' is also not unknown to me - it is mentioned in the same
sources as above. I considered it to mean 'Strings' as in 'Strings of
Cash'?
However, Mauger also mentions "Tchantze' and this seems to be 'qian zi'
~ 'slip of bamboo'??(Thierry mentioned this), for this suit.
However, what is your observation as to what this might be?
> Wan, I only know of "wan zi" (万/萬 子) 10000s. And there was one of
> those really old Mj sets that had "品 pin, product" to replace the
> "万/萬".
That's right as you helped me translate the description of the tile
set! Again, it was the 1884 - 1892 Sheng Xuanhuai tile set. However,
'pin' was considered to be 'rank' or 'grade'. This was in keeping with
the four tiles - that replaced the 'Directions' or 'Winds' tiles - of
what I consider are the four cardinal virtues of integrity, propriety,
righteousness and modesty of the Confucian official. The so-called
'Dragons were 'Scarlet Dragon' and 'Azure Phoenix' and 'White'. I
considered the 1st two to be symbolic of the Emperor and Empress and
hence the 'pin' character was compatible with these symbols of
hierarchy.
Cheers
Michael
Tom Sloper
<cymb...@free.fr> wrote
>> Would any of these terms, building double storey square, single storey
>> square, double loss and one and nine excluded, be familiar or strange
>> to you?
>
>As far as I know, I have never met these expressions.
>And I hardly understand what they mean. Is a "double storey square"
>related to the wall?
Hi Thierry,
As I read that post:
Double story square = two-tile-high wall
Single story square = one-tile-high wall
Double loss = paying double
One and nine excluded = all simples
I guess you didn't have questions about the other terms in that post:
>>And there are selfmake win, double win, discard win, double
>>loss, all begged-for [全求人 quan qiu ren, "(pais are) all begged
>>for, or obtained, from others"], all self-help [opposite of the
>>previous]
All begged-for = all sets and pair made from discards
All self-help = fully concealed
Tom
cymb...@free.fr
> As I read that post:
>
> Double story square = two-tile-high wall
> Single story square = one-tile-high wall
> Double loss = paying double
> One and nine excluded = all simples
> All begged-for = all sets and pair made from discards
> All self-help = fully concealed
That was more or less what I thought.
Thank you for making it clear!
Thierry
Cofa Tsui
news:1169830567....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Tom Sloper a écrit :
I guess these are what they would mean - But I just wonder how games with
"one-tile-high wall" would progress.
With:
> Cha maque (jiang) as to weiqi [weiqi, "go"], is a type of game
> arts [wanyi],
Does that mean Lu Shi'e uses both words for mahjong?
I think he means maque or majiang for the game; and he compares the game
with weiqi ("go").
Cheers!
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
Tom Sloper
>I just wonder how games with "one-tile-high wall" would progress.
They could be one tile high and two tiles wide - as depicted at
http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/friendsFM.html
Tom
John (Z R) L
I know that Dots, Craks and Bamboos were all related to Chinese
money/cash, as stated in wikipedia, and those Matiao cards.
Yes, but that "Tong" copper is a different character: "銅". Chinese
people, because there are all those homophones/homonyms (?!), they
sometimes replace the characters with something else, so maybe that's
why they replaced it with "筒". I might've seen copper "銅子" in the
Classical Japanese Mj book written by Shozo Kanai and Mary Farrell
several years ago, I'm not sure. That book was written in the late 60's
so there certain transitions in the way Mj Kango were written, e.g.
"Chombo" and "Haitei".
And also, my advanced Chinese dictionary, actually has one of "和"'s
readings as "Hu 2" as in to "winning with a complete hand in
mahjong/matiao". But lots of Chinese/Cantonese people have changed the
character to "胡" with it's normal reading being "Hu". I believe this
was because "和" is virtually always pronounced "He 2", and is the
regular word "and", as in "Wo he ni" (You and me), and people feel
uncomfortable calling it "Hu". Japanese people maintained "和" though
because this problem doesn't exist to them.
>However, Mauger also mentions "Tchantze' and this seems to be 'qian zi'
>~ 'slip of bamboo'??(Thierry mentioned this), for this suit.
>However, what is your observation as to what this might be?
The "Qian 1" in "Qian zi" is most likely to be "籤". "籤" is a long
thin piece of bamboo I think. It's also used in a term "Ya Qian"
(牙籤) which means "Toothpick", the first character means "tooth" so
the appearance is due to the "籤"'s long/short skinny nature.
msta...@aol.com
> >'Tong zi' I thought was a reference to 'copper' = 'cash' ~ 'circles'?
> I know that Dots, Craks and Bamboos were all related to Chinese
> money/cash, as stated in wikipedia, and those Matiao cards.
> Yes, but that "Tong" copper is a different character: "銅". Chinese
> people, because there are all those homophones/homonyms (?!), they
> sometimes replace the characters with something else, so maybe that's
> why they replaced it with "筒". I might've seen copper "銅子" in the
> Classical Japanese Mj book written by Shozo Kanai and Mary Farrell
> several years ago, I'm not sure. [snip]
Hello John. Sorry for the confusion. I was not sure to which "Tong"
you were referring, hence my query.
The occurence of homonyms is not unknown to me.
There is another piece of data to add to this topic however. In his
paper 'Spiegel der Mandschu-Sprache', VII, published in 'T'oung Pao,
2nd series, Vol II, 1901, Carl Himly mentions in footnote 640;
"Tong [the character he gives means; like, same, similar, together,
alike, with.] "with", obviously an abbreviation of 銅 'thung' [tong]
"copper", what would, in that respect, mean 'thung chien' [tong qian]
"copper piece" ".
[Additional comments in square brackets. Translated from the German by
Thierry]
Now it seems that he was commenting on a character, 'tong' (meaning
'with'), that appeared on one of the tiles in a bamboo tile set he
acquired sometime between 1868 - 1876 (the year he left China).
I am not sure whether he was commenting from any notes written at that
time or whether he was commenting from memory(a prodigeous feat!) and
whether he was using the Chinese terms (if he knew them) prevalent in
1901.
In any event, he was saying that one character 'tong' (meaning 'with')
was an abbreviation of 'tong' (meaning 'copper').
However, there is also 'tong' meaning 'tube' or 'pipe' or 'cylinder'
or, 'thick piece of bamboo'. I don't know whether the latter meaning
was prevalent around 1868 or so, but I am aware that discs of bamboo
were sometimes used for money. I had wondered whether these discs, if
strung together would form a kind of tube or piece of bamboo and if
so, whether this could be an intermediate stage between tong meaning
'with', and tong meaning 'copper' ~ 'cash'?
One hypthesis of mine.
> And also, my advanced Chinese dictionary, actually has one of "和"'s
> readings as "Hu 2" as in to "winning with a complete hand in
> mahjong/matiao". But lots of Chinese/Cantonese people have changed the
> character to "胡" with it's normal reading being "Hu". I believe this
> was because "和" is virtually always pronounced "He 2", and is the
> regular word "and", as in "Wo he ni" (You and me), and people feel
> uncomfortable calling it "Hu". Japanese people maintained "和" though
> because this problem doesn't exist to them.
Interesting! Thanks for that piece of information John.
> >However, Mauger also mentions "Tchantze' and this seems to be 'qian zi'
> >~ 'slip of bamboo'??(Thierry mentioned this), for this suit.
> >However, what is your observation as to what this might be?
> The "Qian 1" in "Qian zi" is most likely to be "籤". "籤" is a long
> thin piece of bamboo I think. It's also used in a term "Ya Qian"
> (牙籤) which means "Toothpick", the first character means "tooth" so
> the appearance is due to the "籤"'s long/short skinny nature.
I also posited 'discs of bamboo used for oney' as an explanation for
this term as well in the sense that strung bamboo discs could also be
alluded to as 'slips of bamboo' (although skinny this time it seems
^_^ ) and hence could account for this term. Of course it is a
hypothesis only and needs further documentary support.
Cheers
Michael
ithinc
1903~1904:
http://bbs.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=wave99&message=9604
这里胡丽井、王霸丹挥拳闹酒，闹到三更多天。汪老二道："我也乏了，让我歇歇吧！"胡丽井、王霸丹方才罢手。一同用过稀饭，盥漱过了。胡丽井、王霸
丹同叫套车，汪老二拦住他们道："你们回到会馆里去睡觉也怪闷的，不如咱们来打小牌吧。"胡、王二人道："有理，有理！"于是重新坐下，彼此谈天，一面
又催尹仁快过瘾。他们谈天的当口，打杂的早把残席撤去，泡上上好的茶来。四人喝着，尹仁又抽了十几筒烟，这才精神奕奕。顺林儿叫天喜进去，拿麻雀牌和筹
码，一面在套间那张红木小台子上点上四支洋蜡，照得通明雪亮。顺林替他们分好了筹码，叫天喜、天寿好好伺候着："我告假。"说着进里边去了。
这里四人扳位就座，尹仁便问："我们打多少底？"汪老二道："你怪烦絮的，一百块底么二就是了。"胡、王二人还嫌大，汪老二道："算了罢，这还嫌
大，已经再小没有了！"
胡王二人只得勉强答应。四人打了两圈庄，没有什么大输赢。
刚刚到得第三圈，顺林出来了，坐在汪老二身后。汪老二和他鬼混着，也不顾手内的牌了。不提防对家胡丽井中风一碰，发风一碰，自摸一索麻雀，三翻牌摊
了下来了。一数是中风四和，发风四和，自摸一索麻雀十四和，二十二和起翻，一翻四十四，两翻八十八，三翻一百七十六。汪老二正是庄家，应该双倍输，足足
三十五块二角。