Does a Concealed Kan ruin Ippatsu chances?
Tina Christensen
if he later picks the forth tile, and if the hand is in no way changed
(the tiles could never be interpreted as anything but a pon/kan).
Recently we have twice seen the situation where a player declares
riichi, the other players pick and discard once, and the
riichi-declaring player now picks a tile, declares concealed kan and
goes out on the lose tile. If anyone had declared a melded kan, pon or
chi, it would have ended the chance of Ippatsu. But how about a
concealed kan (nevermind which player declared it)? Does a concealed
kan ruin Ippatsu chances?
Tina
John (Zi Rong) Low
Keshi" (Ippatsu disappearence) is when anybody melds anything.
So now you have "Riichi" + "Rinshan Kaihou" + "Menzen Tsumo" as opposed
to "Riichi" + "Ippatsu" + "Menzen Tsumo".
Either way is 3 fan guaranteed in my opinion.
Tom Sloper
>> After riichi declaration we allow the player to declare a concealed kan
>> if he later picks the forth tile, and if the hand is in no way changed
>> (the tiles could never be interpreted as anything but a pon/kan).
My Little Tokyo friends also use this rule.
>> Recently we have twice seen the situation where a player declares
>> riichi, the other players pick and discard once, and the
>> riichi-declaring player now picks a tile, declares concealed kan and
>> goes out on the lose tile. If anyone had declared a melded kan, pon or
>> chi, it would have ended the chance of Ippatsu.
John Low wrote:
> I always play so "Ippatsu
> Keshi" (Ippatsu disappearence) is when anybody melds anything.
Yes, same here. But Tina's question is very interesting.
>> But how about a
>> concealed kan (nevermind which player declared it)? Does a concealed
>> kan ruin Ippatsu chances?
Very interesting. Haven't seen that come up in Little Tokyo, and my friends
aren't very good at explaining things in English (or at listening to
detailed English questions), so I don't know what the most widely used
ruling would be. Of course there are so many different optional table rules
everyone uses everywhere... So the question is probably which way this'd be
ruled most often. When I can't find the answer locally, I usually email Ryan
in Japan. I'll give him a try.
John continued:
> So now you have "Riichi" + "Rinshan Kaihou" + "Menzen Tsumo" as opposed
> to "Riichi" + "Ippatsu" + "Menzen Tsumo".
>
> Either way is 3 fan guaranteed in my opinion.
Not an unfair trade, if that's the rule that holds sway.
If Ryan doesn't post here, I'll post his answer.
Cheers,
Tom
Nath Krismaratala
Yes, you don't receive the point for Ippatsu if somebody, anybody,
makes a meld of any kind. Some Japanese websites are clear about that.
For instance, Japanese Wikipedia [
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E7%99%BA_(%E9%BA%BB%E9%9B%80) ]
stipulates :
ポン、吃、槓（暗槓を含む）があった時点で、一発は無くなる。
On a PON, a CHI or a KAN (including a concealed KAN), Ippatsu is lost.
Tom Sloper
>>After riichi declaration we allow the player to declare a concealed kan
>>if he later picks the forth tile, and if the hand is in no way changed
>>(the tiles could never be interpreted as anything but a pon/kan).
Ryan Morris replies...
>that is correct. note the following case:
>
>11122233377GGG
>
>if the player draws 1, 2, or 3 he cannot kong after a reach because
>it would no longer allow him to interpret the 9 tiles on the far left
>as 123, 123, 123 (three chows). This is odd since he would always
>interpret them as pungs for the extra value, but this is the rule.
Tina:
>> But how about a
>> concealed kan (nevermind which player declared it)? Does a concealed
>> kan ruin Ippatsu chances?
Ryan:
>If any player takes any action, including chi, pon, or kong, and including
>the reaching player, the chances for ippatsu have ended.
>
>Concealed kongs ruin ippatsu just like any other action.
>This includes a concealed kong on the first draw by the reaching player.
My thanks to Ryan for the answer!
Cheers,
Tom
PS - Now to see what Nath wrote...
John (Zi Rong) Low
concealed Kan after "Riichi" unless it doesn't affect the tiles you are
"Tenpai" for.
How will people know that the Ankan you declared hasn't altered your
hand's Tenpai positions when they can't see your hand? Wouldn't that
mean they have to discover if you screwed up, only if you win? Or is it
a matter of trust?
Nath Krismaratala
> hand's Tenpai positions when they can't see your hand?
A Riichi hand is always revealed at the end of the play. No matter if
the Riichi is successful or not, the hand is and MUST be shown to apply
eventually penalties for false declaration of Riichi and altered hand.
John (Zi Rong) Low
Japanese mahjong on the "Ton Puu Sou" server, and I accidentally made a
"No-ten Riichi". And I was hoping that somebody would win before
"Ryukyoku" occurred, and the other person "Ron"ed somebody else.
I didn't have to pay a penalty, which in real life, I would've...
Benjamin Boas
only have to pay chombo for an altering your hand with a kan if it
reaches ryuukyoku. If someone happens to win before that, then youre
safe. Same goes for a no-ten riichi, as long as the game does not
reach the dead wall, no penalty has to be paid. The Japanese Pro
Renmei, the largest pro organization in japan, also uses this rule and
I think its standard among all pro groups.
Personally I dont see how any other solution can be found. The only
way to check to see if someone has a valid hand would be to have
everyone who riiches reveal their hand at the end of every round. This
would alter the strategy somewhat, as there are many pros who, even
though they are tenpai at the end of a round, will declare themselves
as no-ten because they do not want their opponents to see how they
played the hand. The same goes for the jansous, Id bet there are even
more non-pros who are so fussy about their playing style that having to
reveal their hand after every riichi might cause some to stop entirely.
Perhaps thats hyperbole, but Ive seen someone finish an East round
tenpai, declare no ten, and then finish second, behind the top guy by a
difference of 2000 points.
The only thing that i think is missing out of the equation is the case
of player A making an invalid kan, flipping over a new dora tile, and
then player B winning with a hand that was made significantly more
expensive by the new kan dora. My guess is that those sorts of
situations dont really come up so often. After all, its pretty rare
that you even get the opportunity to make an invalid kan.
-Benjamin Boas
John (Zi Rong) Low
need to show everyone all 4 tiles before melding it. And for or
"Daiminkan" or "Kakan", you have to reveal your tiles as well.
Yeah, in all the Japanese mahjong video games that I've played on
various emulators (including MAME and N64), your hand is forced to be
revealed if you are Tenpai after a hand. You can't lie and say No-ten.
Benjamin Boas
Sorry if I was a bit unclear. You make an invalid kan when, after you
riichi, you draw a tile (identical to three other in your hand),
declare a kan (and show all four identical tiles) but in doing so
change the wait pattern of your hand. As Ryan explains above, this is
may not affect the tiles you are waiting for, but is illegal
nonetheless (assuming you have to expose it).
Youre correct in that all of the emulator games you are forced to
declare yourself tenpai if you are (although nantonaku ma-jan for
windows gives you a choice) but consider that in real life, how could
anyone possibly force you to expose a tenpai hand if they didnt know
you were tenpai in the first place?
Addtionally, as Ryan reminds me right now, there are some (rare)
situations where it is advantageous to declare no-ten. Consider a case
in which you are in a close second place and the person in last has
barely any points. If you declare tenpai and do not gain enough points
to become 1st place, the person in last will run out of points and the
game will end with no chance for you to win. Considering that most
payment schemes in japanese mah jong heavily reward the person in 1st,
this situation is certainly possible.
-Benjamin Boas