Dora after Kan
Nath Krishmaratala
Is it :
1. Annoucing "KAN"
2. Showing the three already collected tiles
3. Pick up a supplementary tile from the Dora heap
4. Discarding one's hand tile
5. Turning over a additionnal Dora indicator
6. Reconstruct the Dora heap with tiles from the end of the wall
or
1-2-3-5-6-4 ?
Martin Rep
I presume by 'Dora heap' you mean the kong box, iow the Dead end of
the wall.
According to me, there are two possible answers to your question.
a) when declaring a melded kong it is indeed 1-2-3-4-5-6:
- announcing kong
- showing the three collected tiles
- melding them together with the claimed tile
- picking an addictional tile from the wall (Kong box, your Dora heap)
- discarding a tile
- turning an additional dora tile (kan dora tile)
- the 'reconstruction' is not really done, we just watch that 14 tiles
are left in the dead end of the wall
b) when announcing a concealed kong, iow you have just picked up the
fourth tile from the wall and you want to use it for a kong. (Perhaps
you have had these four tiles for some time, but this does not
matter), it is 1-2-3-5-4-6 (or 1-2-3-5-6-4):
- announcing kong
- showing the four tiles that form a kong, in such a way that the
other players can see that this is a concealed kong, i.e. by turning
one or two of the tiles face down
- picking up a tile from the kong box
- turning an additional dora tile (kan dora tile)
- discarding a tile
- your 'reconstruction'.
The difference is: when announcing a concealed kong, you do not have
to decide which tile to discard unless you have seen the kan dora
tile.
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Nath Krishmaratala
> The difference is: when announcing a concealed kong, you do not have
> to decide which tile to discard unless you have seen the kan dora
> tile.
Thank you.
Tom Sloper
>In Modern Japanese Rules, what is the right steps when declaring a KAN?
>1. Annoucing "KAN"
>2. Showing the three already collected tiles
>3. Pick up a supplementary tile from the Dora heap
>4. Discarding one's hand tile
>5. Turning over a additionnal Dora indicator
>6. Reconstruct the Dora heap with tiles from the end of the wall
>or 1-2-3-5-6-4 ?
It's:
1. Announce "kan"
2. Expose the previously concealed pon (if applicable) with right hand
3. Take the discarded tile to make the kan (turning the taken sideways and
putting it in the appropriate position to indicate from whom you obtained
it)
4. Take replacement tile from dead wall
5. Discard
6. Customarily, the player sitting by the dead wall will turn over the kan
dora tile. If that's you, or if that player forgot, it's okay to do that
after discarding your own tile.
I don't know what you mean about "reconstructing" the dead wall...? It
starts as 7 stacks, but never gets replenished. The dead wall contains 4
kong replacement tiles, then the dora/uradora stack, then room for 4 kan
doras, and never grows any longer than that.
The kan procedure differs greatly from the pon/chi procedure since you have
to take the replacement tile. When taking a discard for pon or chi, many
players get impatient if you laboriously expose before discarding - fast
players want you to expose, discard, then take discard to complete exposure
so the game can move quickly.
Cheers,
Tom
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Tom Sloper
> The difference is: when announcing a concealed kong, you do not have
> to decide which tile to discard unless you have seen the kan dora
> tile.
Good point!
Tom
Nath Krishmaratala
> I don't know what you mean about "reconstructing" the dead wall...? It
> starts as 7 stacks, but never gets replenished. The dead wall contains 4
> kong replacement tiles, then the dora/uradora stack, then room for 4 kan
> doras, and never grows any longer than that.
In the French instructions I have, the dead wall starts as 14 tiles (7
stacks). A stack of 2 tiles from the end of the wall is added each time
a new dora is revealed.
In the begining:
xxxxdxx
xxxxxxx
After the first kan :
xxxxddx
xxxxxxxx
After 2 kan :
xxxxdddx
xxxxxxxx
After 3 kan :
xxxxdddd
xxxxxxxxx
Jesse
In Japan there is a networked mahjong game called "Mahjong Fight
Club", that goes across the country and is incredibly popular. All
arcades have at least four machines some have up to 12. You get an ID
card that saves all your stats (with password and fingerprint
security), you get a national ranking, and if you can't speak japanese
well, and thus intimidated to go to one of the thousands of MJ parlors
in Japan, this is a good alternative. If I am unsure of any rules I
normally see how they are handled via this game.
In MJFC the order is 1-2-3-5-4
So once you call kan (hidden or open) you get a tile, a dora is
flipped then you discard.
Tom Sloper
>
>In the French instructions I have, the dead wall starts as 14 tiles (7
>stacks). A stack of 2 tiles from the end of the wall is added each time
>a new dora is revealed.
The people I've played with don't use that table practice. But as always,
table practices vary.
>In the begining:
>
>xxxxdxx
>xxxxxxx
>
>After the first kan :
>
>xxxxddx
>xxxxxxxx
>
>After 2 kan :
>
>xxxxdddx
>xxxxxxxx
>
>After 3 kan :
>
>xxxxdddd
>xxxxxxxxx
That can't be right! You are showing the dead wall as seen by the West
player (with the dora indicator two stacks from the very end of the dead
wall). For the East player, the dora indicator would be the third tile from
the left. Follow me so far?
The kan dora indicator tiles should be to the left, not to the right, of the
original dora indicator.
For a moment let's overlook the adding of extra tiles as tiles are used. In
the beginning (using your example, continuing to view the dead wall from the
West seat):
xxxxdxx
xxxxxxx
After the first kan :
xxxddx
xxxxxxx
After the 2nd kan :
xxdddx
xxxxxx
After the 3rd kan :
xdddd
xxxxxx
So you see, this firmly shows that the 4th kan MUST be the final kan. No
more kan dora! No more replacement tiles! After the 4th kan:
ddddd
xxxxx
As for additional tiles being added, one of my Japanese books shows that
they ought to be added to the left side, only when a complete stack has been
used up, as follows:
xxxxdxx
xxxxxxx (7 complete stacks at beginning)
xxxddx
xxxxxxx
xxxdddx
xxxxxxx (7 complete stacks again)
xxxddd
xxxxxxx
xxxdddd
xxxxxxx (7 complete stacks, but game ends now, because game usually ends
when 4 kongs have been made)
However, I can't read the book (can only look at the pictures), and my other
Japanese books don't even give that much detail (no pictures of the entire
progression shown above).
Possibly the author of your French instructions saw the table practice long
ago, or in a part of Japan where the described practice is/was used, or
misunderstood. I don't know which of those 3 possible explanations applies.
I have described it the way I've observed it in practice in Tokyo, Nagoya,
Los Angeles' Little Tokyo, and in modern Japanese videogame software.
Cheers,
Tom
Nath Krishmaratala
> That can't be right! You are showing the dead wall as seen by the West
> player (with the dora indicator two stacks from the very end of the dead
> wall). For the East player, the dora indicator would be the third tile from
> the left. Follow me so far?
This way?
wallwallwallwall xxxxdxx
wallwallwallwall xxxxxxx
> So you see, this firmly shows that the 4th kan MUST be the final kan. No
> more kan dora! No more replacement tiles! After the 4th kan:
>
> ddddd
> xxxxx
This makes much more sense to me.
> As for additional tiles being added, one of my Japanese books shows that
> they ought to be added to the left side, only when a complete stack has been
> used up [...]
Next weekend or the other, a Japanese will join our group for a game. I
will ask him then.
> Possibly the author of your French instructions saw the table practice long
> ago, or in a part of Japan where the described practice is/was used, or
> misunderstood.
I found other mistakes (for instance, the toriyaki marker is called the
"hole", « le trou », definitively not right) so I think those French
instructions are not so good. To bad there's no books about Modern
Japanese Mah-jong published in English.
Thank you very much for your help.
Tom Sloper
>This way?
>
>wallwallwallwall xxxxdxx
>wallwallwallwall xxxxxxx
Yes, exactly. That's the way the West player would see it. I normally
portray the dead wall as seen by the Oya instead:
xxdxxxx wallwallwallwall
xxxxxxx wallwallwallwall
Although the local practice is to "dress" the final stack so nobody EVER
confuses it with the live end of the wall, thusly:
__xdxxxx wallwallwallwall
xxxxxxxx wallwallwallwall
This is done by simply taking the tile from the top of the final stack and
putting it on the tabletop beyond the bottom tile of the final stack.
I have to amend something I said before. I said that my local Japanese
players do not add more tiles to the dead wall - that was wrong, they do. It
isn't usual to have as many as 2 kans on the table, but I do vaguely recall
somebody adding tiles to the dead wall - the apparent purpose is to have
either 13 or 14 tiles in the dead wall at all times.
It's "the king's hand." A full hand of tiles that never enters play.
Cheers,
Tom
Nath Krishmaratala
>
> I have to amend something I said before. I said that my local Japanese
> players do not add more tiles to the dead wall - that was wrong, they do. It
> isn't usual to have as many as 2 kans on the table, but I do vaguely recall
> somebody adding tiles to the dead wall - the apparent purpose is to have
> either 13 or 14 tiles in the dead wall at all times.
Maybe they don't bother to add tiles to the dead wall systematicly, not
until it becomes obvious that the game is heading for a draw.
Tom Sloper
>Maybe they don't bother to add tiles to the dead wall systematicly, not
>until it becomes obvious that the game is heading for a draw.
Right. As the wall gets short, we do make sure to have a gap between the
dead wall and the live wall, for the purposes of counting how many turns we
have left until the end. Nobody worries about making that gap until at
least the halfway point or so. Usually.
Cheers,
Tom
Nath Krishmaratala
> Next weekend or the other, a Japanese will join our group for a game. I
> will ask him then.
Here's how they do it in Fukuoka:
At the start of the play :
xxdxxxx ...............
xxxxxxx ...............
After 1st Kan:
xddxxx ...............
xxxxxxx 1..............
The last tile at the end of the wall belongs to the dead wall, but
because it's under, it stays there. The tile cannot be moved without
making a unecessary mess, so it shouldn't be moved yet.
After 2nd Kan:
xdddxx2 ...........
xxxxxx1 ...........
If someone bothers to do it, the stack of 2 tiles is incorporated to the
dead wall.
After 3rd Kan :
ddddx2 ..............
xxxxxx1 3.............
The 4th and last Kan :
ddddd2 4...............
xxxxx1 3...............
The stack at the end of the wall isn't moved because the game ended with
the fourth Kan.
In all time the dead wall is (virtually) composed of 14 tiles.