Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal

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Graham Nelson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
----------------------------------------------------------------

The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
to receive "Advent" (a.k.a. "Colossal Cave") and "Zork" (a.k.a. "Dungeon")
in the late 1970s. Two graduate students, Jon Thackray and David Seal,
began a game called "Acheton" in 1978-9: with the aid of Jonathan
Partington it expanded for another two years. Possibly the first game
written outside America, by 1981 it seems likely that it was also the
largest in the world (it has 403 locations). "Acheton" was written
with a game assembler contemporary with Infocom's proprietory "ZIL":
unlike ZIL, Seal and Thackray's game assembler was available for public
use, the public in question being all users of Phoenix c. 1980-95.
"Acheton" and a number of other titles migrated to commercial releases:
some by Acornsoft for the BBC Micro, the local Cambridge-built
microcomputer; some later by Topologika for a wide range of systems,
so that these games are often called "the Topologika games". However,
not all the Phoenix games had a Topologika release, nor vice versa.

Under the long shadow of "Acheton", the Phoenix games tend to be
large cave exploration games with treasures in the traditional style,
with well over 100 rooms each ("Sangraal" has 170 and "Fyleet" is
not far behind). As was normal in games of the period, they have
a two-word parser, but it is a good one, supporting "take all" and
"drop all".

The three restored here make a loose trilogy of cave games by
Jonathan R. Partington, now Professor of Mathematical Analysis at
Leeds University. (Jonathan has been unfailingly generous with his
time but we would ask players to get in touch with us rather than
emailing him directly: see below.) These games can be played in any
order and do not refer to each other, but belong together in style
and atmosphere, which is why we began with them.

Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then
compiled by Inform into story files. They do not include the Inform
library, and so don't have the Inform world model or parser --
instead they have the original, two-word parser and include their
own implementations of standard actions. If our restorations work
properly, all responses and messages are identical to the originals
(with only tiny exceptions, e.g., the arrangements for saving and
restoring games are more modern and not specific to Phoenix).

The translator is still new. We have tested these three games, and
think they're at least mostly correct, but wouldn't be too surprised
to receive the odd bug report. Please send all feedback to
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk).

"Fyleet" (1985):
You are in the ruins of the ancient fortress of Fyleet.
Around you lies a thick pine forest, which appears to have been
cleared a bit to your west; there are also paths to the east
and north, while to the south some steps lead down into the ground.
> down
You proceed down the steps, which twist and turn as they
descend several hundred feet into the ground. Eventually
you come out into a small room.
You are in a small square room. Light streams in from an archway to
the south. There are steps leading up to the north, and a closed door
to the east.
There is a bullseye lantern here, which is off.
There is a piano-accordion here.
There is an empty bottle here.

"Crobe" (1986): Beneath the cliffs of the seaport of Crobe are caves
presided over by the cordial, if not directly helpful, Warden of
Crobe, and home also to Karg, king of a band of trolls. But it's
far from easy even to find your way in.

"The Quest for the Sangraal" (1987): A cheering crowd urges you to
go out to certain death on a quest for the Sangraal (the Holy
Grail), as have many knights before you. A game making much
greater use of landscape, memorable for its wry puzzles on
goodness versus sin.

These three games are available as Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5 and Sangraal.z5
at "ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive/", and -- like all Z-code story
files -- can be played using Frotz, MaxZip and many other interpreters.

We intend next to release "Nidus", "Xenophobia", "BrandX" (later
better known as "Philosopher's Quest") and "Parc", four rather
different games by four different authors.


22 August 1999
Graham Nelson (writing translator program)
Adam Atkinson (testing and restoring source code)
Gunther Schmidl (seeking and clearing rights to source code)

--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom


Matthew Garrett

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>, Graham Nelson wrote:

>The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
>usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those

<ObPedant>
Ex-central computer - I have an MPEG of it being shut down around here
somewhere...
</ObPedant>

But other than that, all I have to say is "Cool" - I'm even more in favour
of 80's nostalgia when it's bits of the 80s that I missed out on...
--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk

Michael Baum

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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On 24 Aug 1999 02:19:12 GMT, jcn-mart...@jesus.cam.ac.uk
(Matthew Garrett) wrote:

><ObPedant>
>Ex-central computer - I have an MPEG of it being shut down around here
>somewhere...
></ObPedant>

Truly? I have seen some stupefyingly boring MPEGs, but one of an IBM
mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
Cool!

-maab

Matthew Garrett

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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>Truly? I have seen some stupefyingly boring MPEGs, but one of an IBM
>mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
>exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
>Cool!

People get very sentimental about old mainframes around here. This
probably goes to show something or other, but I'm sure I don't know what.

--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk

Alan Trewartha

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <slrn7s3pb4.adt.j...@cavan.jesus.cam.ac.uk>,

Matthew Garrett <URL:mailto:jcn-mart...@jesus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>, Graham Nelson wrote:
>
> >The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
> >usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
>
> all I have to say is "Cool" - I'm even more in favour
> of 80's nostalgia when it's bits of the 80s that I missed out on...

I missed out despite having bloody lectures in the building that housed
it, despite having CompSci friends and despite being forced to do some
physical modelling project for part Ib physics. Do I feel stupid.

This is really great. I read Stephen G's miningco article that mentioned
Acheton... I guess that's not going to be coming our way too quickly :-(,
but fantastic work on these games. I am, as they say, there.

Philosopher's Quest will be welcome too, as the emulated BBC version I've
got seems a little dodgy.

Now, back to my Vectrex disassembly...

--
Mail to alant instead of no.spam


Magnus Olsson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,

Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal

Now, this is absolutely smashing news, both from a player's and from
an antiquarian's point of view.

>Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
>a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
>directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
>language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then
>compiled by Inform into story files.

And this is most interesting from a hacker's point of view ("hacker"
in the original sense, of course).

Which immediately leads me to ask:

Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
as well? And what about a specification for the source language,
together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
interesting objects of study.

--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------

Graham Nelson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <slrn7s56dn.4ii.j...@cavan.jesus.cam.ac.uk>,

Matthew Garrett <URL:mailto:jcn-mart...@jesus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

I was actually logged on during its last minute of public service,
as (I noticed) were quite a number of others, purely for auld
lang syne. It was like the Saturday night backup shutdown to
end all Saturday night backup shutdowns... and the system logged
us off forcibly exactly as it always did. By then, there were
relatively few services available anyway, and it all felt like
a great big mansion from which all the furniture had been cleared.

Crispin Boylan

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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Hi
Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?
I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?

Great job with the others though!
Cheers
Cris

Graham Nelson wrote:

> Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal

> ----------------------------------------------------------------


>
> The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
> usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those

> Rather than re-implementing the design in a modern system, we used
> a translator (a Perl script called "Phoenix") to compile these games
> directly from their original source code into Z-machine assembly
> language, which (supplemented with a small routine library) was then

Gunther Schmidl

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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>
> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
> as well? And what about a specification for the source language,
> together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
> interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
> interesting objects of study.

You haven't been paying very close attention to r.a.i-f OR visiting ifMUD a
lot lately, have you? :-)

All the sources (except PARC), plus compiler specification, are already at
GMD.

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/topologika/

I'd wait with downloading the sources, though, since cleaned-up versions
will be uploaded soon.

+-----------------+---------------+------------------------------+
| Gunther Schmidl | ICQ: 22447430 | IF: http://sgu.home.dhs.org/ |
|-----------------+----------+----+------------------------------|
| gschmidl (at) gmx (dot) at | please remove the "xxx." to reply |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------+

Graham Nelson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <7pufel$olj$1...@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson

<URL:mailto:m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
> as well?

They already are: they've been at ftp.gmd.de for about three weeks.
They are filed under "topologika" in "games/source" as I remember:
though this is not really correct, since none of the games there
has ever had a Topologika release. I would prefer them to be
called "Cambridge University" or "Phoenix" games, I suppose.

> And what about a specification for the source language,

Likewise! (Which came as a relief to me: my old printout of the
manual, made in 1990, is now altogether illegible.)

> together with the Phoenix program?

Yes, I intend to publish this when it's a little bit cleaner.
Even so, it will be a pretty vile Perl script, and I don't propose
to spend any time porting it to different platforms, maintaining
it, etc. -- I see it strictly as a means to an end.

Graham Nelson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <7pufel$olj$1...@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson
<URL:mailto:m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,

> Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Announcement: Three lost games restored: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
>
> Now, this is absolutely smashing news, both from a player's and from
> an antiquarian's point of view.

One more thing, if I may -- they really are of more than
antiquarian interest: they're rather good games, far superior
to the run of early 1980s microcomputer games. I enjoyed them
enormously while testing.

Magnus Olsson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In article <37c2f...@alijku02.edvz.uni-linz.ac.at>,

Gunther Schmidl <gsch...@xxx.gmx.at> wrote:
>>
>> Would it be possible to make the source code of these games available
>> as well? And what about a specification for the source language,
>> together with the Phoenix program? The latter two may not be very
>> interesting as alternatives to Inform, but I think they would be
>> interesting objects of study.
>
>You haven't been paying very close attention to r.a.i-f OR visiting ifMUD a
>lot lately, have you? :-)

Well, I recall seeing an announcement of the topologika games being
uploaded, but I didn't connect this with Graham's post. Sorry.

And as for the ifMUD - I've only visited the place once, during the
1997 XYZZY awards ceremony. I pay for internet access by the minute,
and connecting to a MUD from work would be too flagrant a breach of
the traditional Swedish Lutheran work ethics. :-)

Which is a pity, because I gather that most of the goings-on on
today's IF scene go on at the MUD, rather than in the newsgroups.

Andrew Plotkin

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> And as for the ifMUD - I've only visited the place once, during the
> 1997 XYZZY awards ceremony. I pay for internet access by the minute,
> and connecting to a MUD from work would be too flagrant a breach of
> the traditional Swedish Lutheran work ethics. :-)
>
> Which is a pity, because I gather that most of the goings-on on
> today's IF scene go on at the MUD, rather than in the newsgroups.

Eh, not really. The MUD is a gossip center and font of random
conversation, among a group of people who are a *subset* of the RAIF
regulars. Most of the time we're not talking about IF at all.

(I'd recommend the Implementor's Lunches as an exception, but I've missed
every single one since the first. Sigh.)

If anything, I'd say that most of the goings-on in modern IF have moved to
our individual apartments, studies, and offices. The trend I see is that
people are implementing their ideas, instead of bringing them up on the
newsgroup for discussion.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
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On 24-Aug-99 17:28:46, Crispin Boylan said:

>Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?

The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.

>I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?

We would need Topologika's blessing to produce zcode versions of
Hamil, Murdac, Quondam, Acheton or Avon. Or indeed the Doom games.

I'm not sure if we need a blessing to release BrandX ... it could be
argued that it's not Philosopher's Quest in the same way that Dungeon
isn't Zork I/II/III.

Such a blessing is being sought - all the authors have said if it's ok
by Topologika, it's ok by them. Graham and I have the matter in hand -
please don't anybody else contact Topologika about this.

The Doom games and other non-Phoenix titles aren't likely to be
z-coded terribly soon, as they were written in a different language.
Indeed, the Phoenix games with Topologika releases were ported into
this other language. I'm told the Topologika releases were usually a
little different from the Phoenix originals - I've not seen the
Topologika versions. I did playtest "Last Days of Doom", though.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
BRITISH PUSH BOTTLES UP ENEMY


Matthew Garrett

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
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In article <1624.905T668T...@mistral.co.uk>, Adam Atkinson wrote:

>The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
>those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
>and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
>binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
>then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
>of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.

Has anyone tried shouting for help on the ucam.* groups? There's rather a
lot of people left who were around during the Phoenix days.

--
Matthew Garrett | mj...@cam.ac.uk

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
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On 25-Aug-99 00:44:26, Matthew Garrett said:

>Has anyone tried shouting for help on the ucam.* groups? There's rather a
>lot of people left who were around during the Phoenix days.

Well... we've mostly been talking to the people who wrote the games.
CJ10 has a tape backup of Phoenix, but Hezarin and Quondam sources
probably aren't on it. RU10 (or was he RU10something?) doesn't have
electronic copies of the sources to Quondam but thinks he might have a
printout somewhere.

JRP1 had electronic copies of almost everything, but Hezarin's sources
had already vanished by the mid 80s, IIRC. I think JGT1 told me at the
time that if bugs were found in it, nothing could be done.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
XYZZY


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
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So, has anyone played any of these games yet? I've not had any mail.

A general note: we already know about two cosmetic oopses in Sangraal.

(i) Klingsor seems to score one of his challenges incorrectly but actually
only the message is wrong - the game keeps track of the correct score.

(ii) You get a message full of "?" signs in the Temple of Numbers.
This doesn't actually matter.

Both of these will be fixed.

Graham: message "bingomess" needs x34, x35, x36 and x37 instead of ?,
?, ?, ?

And my best guess for the klingsor first challenge is:

gamescore:

x35, x36

gameno:

x34

If that's what I said the first time, then I'm very confused about
what to try next.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Eschew obfuscation!


Andrew Plukss

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Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
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I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?

Andrew Plukss


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
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On 26-Aug-99 04:32:18, Andrew Plukss said:
>I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
>but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode".

Ooer.

>Is there
>something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
>from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?

I didn't think so. Graham has a RiscOS machine and I have an Amiga, so
we hadn't tried them with WinFrotz. Still, they worked on both of
ours just like any other game. Hmmm... and JRP1 has played them
successfully on his Macintosh using MaxZip.

Anyone else have the same problem?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)


Steve Evans

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Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
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On 26 Aug 99 07:01:37 +0000, "Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk>
wrote:

I'm using Winfrotz 2.32 R5.3 and they all seem to work fine.
I suspect that a download problem may have been the culprit.


Steve Evans

Andrew Plukss

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Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
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I was using a Pentium120 with win95, Winfrotz 2.32 R5.3 when I
encountered the illegal opcode errors. However, as Steve Evans has had
no problems I'll accept the download gremlin as being responsible for
the problem and have another attempt. Thankyou all for your quick
responses.

Andrew Plukss


Mark J Musante

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Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
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Andrew Plukss (plu...@melbpc.org.au) wrote:
> I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
> but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there

> something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
> from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?

Make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you've downloaded the files in binary mode,
if you're using direct ftp.

.z* files get completely munged if ASCII ftp is used.


-=- Mark -=-

J.D. Berry

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Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
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In article <796.906T1407T...@mistral.co.uk>,

"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> So, has anyone played any of these games yet? I've not had any mail.
>

While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.

Going from Anchorhead to Crobe in one day, I may have suffered some
sort of gaming system shock. If anyone has a good "apples to oranges"
cliche, let me know. ;-)

Jim


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
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On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:

> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.

The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
ancient key under the bed".

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
You got a light, mac?
No, but I've got a dark brown overcoat.


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
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On 27-Aug-99 21:32:03, Adam Atkinson said:

>The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>ancient key under the bed".

Thinking about it, even when I play games which do allow me to say the
most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
"turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
infocom games.

Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
advanced parsers?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
VOLCANO MISSING FEARED DEAD


Dylan O'Donnell

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> writes:
> On 27-Aug-99 21:32:03, Adam Atkinson said:
>
> >The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> >shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> >ancient key under the bed".
>
> Thinking about it, even when I play games which do allow me to say the
> most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
> like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
> "turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
> infocom games.
>
> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> advanced parsers?

Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell : "It is pitch black. You are likely :
: Forgotten Office, Demon : to be eaten by a grue." :
: http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/ : -- Dave Lebling and Marc Blank, "Zork" :

Andrew Plotkin

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
>
>> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
>
> The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> ancient key under the bed".

But it's uncomfortable to be faced with a Crobe-master who says "You can
give things to me", and know that "give object to crobe" isn't the right
answer. I have to think about what to type, which isn't ideal. It's not
just a matter of ignoring all the four-word commands.

And I do get frustrated when no version of "examine" works. Even if it
would produce a "nothing interesting" message every time, it's still part
of my navigation instincts, and I feel a bit blinded when it's not there.

(Not to mention "l" and "i".)

I realize that this is an exercise in historical restoration, not a new
game project. Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
these games.

R. Alan Monroe

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
In article <37C4C352...@melbpc.org.au>, Andrew Plukss <plu...@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
>but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
>something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
>from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?

You probably used netscape, and it downloaded with a mime type that
netscape mistakenly thought was ascii. In other words, redownload with
a different program, or maybe from a mirror site.

Have fun
Alan

R. Alan Monroe

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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In article <7q7cjv$e...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@netcom.com> wrote:
>And I do get frustrated when no version of "examine" works. Even if it
>would produce a "nothing interesting" message every time, it's still part
>of my navigation instincts, and I feel a bit blinded when it's not there.
>(Not to mention "l" and "i".)

Thus the addition of Aliases in winfrotz (hooray!)

Have fun
Alan

Jason Compton

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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In rec.games.int-fiction Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:

: Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
: advanced parsers?

Sure. Take, for example, the ability to "look under" rather than simply
"look at" which we generally take to be the standard "look." Or "look
in."

Better parsers also solve the

>THROW ROCK
At what?
>WALL

problem. I think it's a lot more reasonable to just say what I want to
do--throw the rock at the wall.


--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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On 28-Aug-99 00:03:22, Dylan O'Donnell said:

>> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>> advanced parsers?

>Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,


>but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
>ON PEDESTAL;

Yes, after sending my message I realised that I would probably say
things like that from time to time too. Rare-ish, though.

>I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
>expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
>what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
>in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.

I'll check the docs. We _may_ have a reason to recompile here...
I thought the specs for the Phoenix system said that all words after
the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
"put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
What's yellow and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice? Zorn's lemon.


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
On 28-Aug-99 04:27:57, Jason Compton said:

>: Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>: advanced parsers?

>Sure. Take, for example, the ability to "look under" rather than simply


>"look at" which we generally take to be the standard "look." Or "look
>in."

Wasn't "search" the way out of this way back when? I know the Phoenix
mob generally didn't like "search" and "examine" - their attitude was
that having to "search" or "examine" every object in sight every time
you went into a new room was tedious.

>Better parsers also solve the

>>THROW ROCK
>At what?
>>WALL

>problem. I think it's a lot more reasonable to just say what I want to
>do--throw the rock at the wall.

Well, sure. But in these games, you can't do this. Perhaps we should
change the "inform" message to warn people about such things. Since
the game has a two-word parser, puzzles will almost never rely on this
kind of thing.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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On 28-Aug-99 01:05:03, Andrew Plotkin said:

>But it's uncomfortable to be faced with a Crobe-master who says "You can
>give things to me", and know that "give object to crobe" isn't the right
>answer. I have to think about what to type, which isn't ideal. It's not
>just a matter of ignoring all the four-word commands.

In the particular case of the Warden of Crobe, I think he tells you
the syntax the first time you meet him. "give wombat" is no big
surprise. Who else are you going to be giving it to? Not a problem.
I admit the first time I wanted something back from him when
playtesting Crobe I'd forgotten the word was "request".

>And I do get frustrated when no version of "examine" works. Even if it
>would produce a "nothing interesting" message every time, it's still part
>of my navigation instincts, and I feel a bit blinded when it's not there.

I think Sangraal understands "examine". Crobe and Sangraal (written in
that order) were amongst the last Phoenix games written. Sangraal has
brief/normal/verbose, and examine.

>I realize that this is an exercise in historical restoration, not a new
>game project. Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
>these games.

One issue-ette is that permission was conditional on making only
unavoidable changes. And as you say, Graham wanted to implement the
games as they were, not the games as they would have been had they
been written in the 1990s. Adding a "restore" command was necessary
- the Phoenix way of doing it would just be unreasonable. And perhaps
impossible with most versions of Frotz/Zip.

We COULD give "inventory" and "look" one-letter abbreviations, but
this could break something. e.g. in Sangraal we'd almost certainly
need to worry about what this would do to Klingsor's library.

Dylan O'Donnell

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> writes:

> On 28-Aug-99 00:03:22, Dylan O'Donnell said:
>
> >> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> >> advanced parsers?
>
> >Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
> >but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> >ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the

> >expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> >what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> >in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
>
> I'll check the docs. We _may_ have a reason to recompile here...
> I thought the specs for the Phoenix system said that all words after
> the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
> "put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...

Well, they may in certain cases. But certainly SIT ON THRONE in
Crobe, for example, gets "I don't understand that!" when SIT is
understood. It really just demands a habit of thinking which I've
fallen out of in the past, pampered years :-)

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:

> Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
> advanced parsers?

In the majority of the commands, no way. For crying out loud,
the majority of the commands I give are a single letter.

But in the majority of the games I play, I do make use of the
more advanced features of the parser at one time or another,
and if the game doesn't understand I get frustrated. Fast.
It's usually because the solution I've thought up for
the puzzle I was stuck can't be communicated with simpler
syntax, and the fact that one line after another the game
doesn't understand my commands indicates that the author
didn't anticipate the action I'm trying to do. Some actions
can't be stated in two words. But by the time I realise that
my problem isn't guess-the-syntax but having the wrong solution,
I'm already quite frustrated. I usually don't finish those
games.


'Right! Now the first person to discover twelfth base
gets a ghost point and one free "Get Out of Jail"...'
-- Calvin

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:

> Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
> but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
> expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.

Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon. You
hit something with it. (Swing might have worked, but I didn't
think of that.) I eventually got frustrated and typed "throw
axe" meaning throw it across the room in dispair -- and wow,
that was what I was supposed to do all along. But that's the
wrong way to have to get there.

Daniel Giaimo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:37c7aecc...@news.bright.net...

> dyl...@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell) wrote:
>
> > Yes, actually. Not convoluted sentences like the one above, usually,
> > but three or four word commands like HIT TROLL WITH SWORD or PUT JEWEL
> > ON PEDESTAL; I'm _used_ to being able to say things like that with the
> > expectation that, even if they don't work, the game will understand
> > what I'm trying to do. It's jarring (even if perfectly reasonable, as
> > in the case of games from this era) when it doesn't.
>
> Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
> to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
> not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.

I guess the dwarvish axe is more like a tomahawk than a battleaxe.
Also, I would think that you would get the idea since the dwarf throws the
axe at you.

--
--Daniel Giaimo
Remove nospam. from my address to e-mail me. |
dgiaimo@(nospam.)ix.netcom.com
^^^^^^^^^<-(Remove)
|--------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK--------| Ros: I don't believe in it anyway.
|Version: 3.1 |
|GM d-() s+:+++ a--- C++ UIA P+>++++ | Guil: What?
|L E--- W+ N++ o? K w>--- !O M-- V-- |
|PS? PE? Y PGP- t+(*) 5 X+ R- tv+(-) | Ros: England.
|b+@ DI++++ D--- G e(*)>++++ h->++ !r |
|!y->+++ | Guil: Just a conspiracy of
|---------END GEEK CODE BLOCK---------| cartographers, you mean?

Magnus Olsson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
In article <slrn7s56dn.4ii.j...@cavan.jesus.cam.ac.uk>,
Matthew Garrett <mj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Truly? I have seen some stupefyingly boring MPEGs, but one of an IBM
>>mainframe being shut down would vie for top of the list. Or is it more
>>exciting than I know? Do they shut them down with amatol or something?
>>Cool!
>
>People get very sentimental about old mainframes around here. This
>probably goes to show something or other, but I'm sure I don't know what.

I think the text you get when you type "inform" in one of the games
goes a long way towards explaining just why people would be nostalgic
about their old mainframe.

--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------

Steve Young

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to

Adam Atkinson wrote in message
<714.908T1006T...@mistral.co.uk>...

>On 27-Aug-99 21:32:03, Adam Atkinson said:
>
>>The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
>>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>>ancient key under the bed".
>
>Thinking about it, even when I play games which do allow me to say the
>most contorted things, a transcript of my commands would look just
>like something from a two-word game. The only exception would be the
>"turtle, follow me" kind of syntax you need to talk to people in
>infocom games.
>
>Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>advanced parsers?


I don't believe people ever have, though I could be wrong. I know I
always use as simple as commands as I can get away with.

This thing with advanced parsers that could do all elaborate things
started taking place in the mid 80's, with the authors and companies
believing that was what the public wanted, whereas in truth most of the
adventurers hated them and only wanted something that could understand
what they were trying to say or do. Instead of correcting the problems
of guess the verb, they ignored that and made the parser as elaborate as
possible.

> Give map to Thorin and ask Gandalf to open dungeon window and pick you
up, then kill Elrond with sword.

The Hobbit has a lot to answer for.

Steve


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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On 28-Aug-99 09:15:41, Dylan O'Donnell said:

>> the second would be ignored. in which case "hit troll with sword" or
>> "put jewel on pedestal" might seem to work...

>Well, they may in certain cases. But certainly SIT ON THRONE in
>Crobe, for example, gets "I don't understand that!" when SIT is
>understood.

Sure. "sit on" makes no sense. "sit down" works, though.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Quicksand or no, Carstairs, I've half a mind to struggle.


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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On 28-Aug-99 09:44:38, Jonadab the Unsightly One said:

>Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
>to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
>not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.

There are such things as small throwing axes. The dwarf throws the
thing at you the first time you see it.

>I eventually got frustrated and typed "throw
>axe" meaning throw it across the room in dispair -- and wow,
>that was what I was supposed to do all along. But that's the
>wrong way to have to get there.

I don't agree. It is clearly a throwing axe.

Andrew Plotkin

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28-Aug-99 01:05:03, Andrew Plotkin said:
>
>>But it's uncomfortable to be faced with a Crobe-master who says "You can
>>give things to me", and know that "give object to crobe" isn't the right
>>answer. I have to think about what to type, which isn't ideal. It's not
>>just a matter of ignoring all the four-word commands.
>
> In the particular case of the Warden of Crobe, I think he tells you
> the syntax the first time you meet him. "give wombat" is no big
> surprise. Who else are you going to be giving it to? Not a problem.

I think you're missing my point, which is that it *is* a problem. A pretty
small problem, yes. I can memorize new syntaxes for standard commands. (I
use the word "new" deliberately.) But it's getting in the way of me
playing.

I don't want to hammer on this a whole lot, because the games are built
the way they're built and I don't expect them to be changed. But you're
asserting that it's a non-issue because no complex commands are needed to
solve the game; and as a UI designer I must point out that it *doesn't
work that way.*

>>I realize that this is an exercise in historical restoration, not a new
>>game project. Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
>>these games.
>
> One issue-ette is that permission was conditional on making only
> unavoidable changes.

Yes, that's another reason the problem exists.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99
to
On 28-Aug-99 23:14:06, Andrew Plotkin said:

>> In the particular case of the Warden of Crobe, I think he tells you
>> the syntax the first time you meet him. "give wombat" is no big
>> surprise. Who else are you going to be giving it to? Not a problem.

>I think you're missing my point, which is that it *is* a problem. A pretty
>small problem, yes. I can memorize new syntaxes for standard commands. (I
>use the word "new" deliberately.)

For "new" read "old", that sort of thing? I expect the same "problem"
presents itself playing Scott Adams etc. stuff.

>But it's getting in the way of me playing.

Well, I'm sorry.

>But you're
>asserting that it's a non-issue because no complex commands are needed to
>solve the game; and as a UI designer I must point out that it *doesn't
>work that way.*

I'd have thought it's no worse than the way some games want you to say
"turtle, invade poland" and others want you to say something like:

talk to turtle
(what do you want to say to the turtle?) invade poland

I remember having had this "problem" some time in the last few weeks
and having found it, briefly, no more than mildly irritating.

>>>Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
>>>these games.
>>
>> One issue-ette is that permission was conditional on making only
>> unavoidable changes.

>Yes, that's another reason the problem exists.

In any event, there are likely to be _many_ other reasons why these
games offend modern sensibilities. Instadeaths, discovering you should
have done something ages ago which means you have to start from
scratch, arbitrary puzzles, whatever. Actually, Crobe and Sangraal are
probably not too "offensive" from this point of view, but Fyleet
really opened my eyes even 15 years ago: there are some puzzles in
Fyleet I only got by running out of other things to do, until the only
possible way to solve them was to use some combination of the few
remaining magic words, objects and locations that I hadn't understood
the purpose of yet. I can't see this going down well today, though
I think having _one_ such puzzle in a game might not be too bad,
especially if you can do it pretty near the end of the game: you're
supposed to solve the puzzle by running out of things that can
possibly be used to do it.

The whole point of the entire exercise was actually to produce a
translator that could make a working version of Acheton. What will
modern sensibilities make of that? I don't know. Certainly anyone
who plays it will need to be warned that it's an antique. On the
whole, I think Acheton will offend less than Fyleet will, except that
Acheton has a "recharge your lamp exactly once" puzzle. Can't see that
winning many friends: a solution to Acheton needs to involve at most
740 turns of lamp time.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
"You know, I've gone to a lot of psychics, and they've told me a lot of
different things, but not one of them has ever told me 'You are an
undercover policewoman here to arrest me.'"


Trevor Barrie

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99
to
On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:23:30 +0100, Steve Young <steve...@eclipse.co.uk>
wrote:

>>Do people _really_ make very frequent use of the full power of
>>advanced parsers?

No, but I expect they often use more than two words. I certainly do.

>I don't believe people ever have, though I could be wrong. I know I
>always use as simple as commands as I can get away with.
>
>This thing with advanced parsers that could do all elaborate things
>started taking place in the mid 80's, with the authors and companies
>believing that was what the public wanted, whereas in truth most of the
>adventurers hated them

Basis for this claim? I have difficulty picturing anybody throwing a
copy of Zork across the room upon learning that it lets you use
articles.

>and only wanted something that could understand what they were trying to
>say or do. Instead of correcting the problems of guess the verb, they

>ignored that and made the parser as elaborate as possible.

Of course, you really _can't_ eliminate the problem of guess-the-verb
while using a two-word parser, as the most intuitive wording is often
going to be more than two words.

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
amo...@earth1.net (R. Alan Monroe) wrote:

> >I have tried to run Fyleet.z5, Crobe.z5, and Sangraal.z5 using winFrotz
> >but each attempt generated the error "Fatal:Illegal opcode". Is there
> >something about these particular adventures that differentiates them
> >from other *.z5 or *.z8 games?
>
> You probably used netscape, and it downloaded with a mime type that
> netscape mistakenly thought was ascii. In other words, redownload with
> a different program, or maybe from a mirror site.

My experience has been that Navigator can download z-code correctly
but will only do so if you right-click on the link and choose "save
link as". If you just hit the link and watch it display jibberish
and then "save as" my experience has been that it mangles the file
somewhere along the line.

But a real ftp app is so much nicer for that sort of thing anyway.

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
"Daniel Giaimo" <dgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> > Yeah. First time I played Adventure, I couldn't figure out how
> > to "kill the dwarf with the axe". I mean, throwing an axe is
> > not, last I checked, a normal way to use that weapon.
>

> I guess the dwarvish axe is more like a tomahawk than a battleaxe.

I suppose, but when I think "dwarvish" I think Tolkeinien-dwarvish,
and I think massive double-edged battleaxe at least half the size of
the guy wielding it, probably made millenia ago two miles beneath the
surface of the ground, forged out of some incredibly dense alloy
or another, the kind of thing that cuts right through standard-issue
iron chain mail, rendering it asunder, like a chainsaw through balsa
wood. If you throw it, your enemy can potentially pick it up and
use it against you (unless of course you're a good enough shot to
render him assunder with one fell blow). But if you hit him with
it, he's not going to give you any more trouble.

> Also, I would think that you would get the idea since the dwarf throws the
> axe at you.

And I think of a very sturdy dwarf who is capable of throwing
something as tall as he is and half his girth and twice his weight,
something a puny weakling man like me would never be able to throw to
any effect.

Andrew Plukss

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
Since I started a subsection within this thread complaining about not
being able to play these games because of illegal op code errors, I
guess I should end it as well. For the record, two attempts at
downloading the games via Netscape produced files that would not run. I
have in the past successfully downloaded other Inform games by using the
shift key in combination with the mouse button which apparently forces
the save into a binary mode. I have no idea why it didn't work these
times. Common sense then intervened and I switched to an FTP program and
had no problems in downloading the games.

I have only played Fyleet and thought that I was making some progress as
I had amassed 10 points out of a possible 600, that is until I used
"score" right at the very beginning to find that I had 10 points
already! I have explored some 35 rooms and must admit that I need a
little help to get me to the next plateau of achievement (11+ points).

I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.

Andrew Plukss

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
On 30-Aug-99 07:46:55, Andrew Plukss said:

>I have only played Fyleet and thought that I was making some progress as
>I had amassed 10 points out of a possible 600, that is until I used
>"score" right at the very beginning to find that I had 10 points
>already! I have explored some 35 rooms and must admit that I need a
>little help to get me to the next plateau of achievement (11+ points).

Hmm. I didn't think it was that hard to score points in Fyleet! I'll
check my copy. (I got told I'd scored 600/600 at the end, but that's a
static message, not something with a variable in it.)

>I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
>produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
>produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
>crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.

Excellent! This is the sort of thing we need to know. ("Sit" in
Sangraal used to crash the game...) I'll tell Graham.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Please, call me Robert. It sounds so much more substantial.
(AVPP)


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
On 30-Aug-99 09:47:15, Adam Atkinson said:

>Hmm. I didn't think it was that hard to score points in Fyleet! I'll
>check my copy.

Right. Started Fyleet, did a few things that I thought would probably
be worth points, and found that my score had increased from 10 to 35.
So scoring is ok here, I think.

What have you done that you think should have earned points? Just
walking around won't have done it, though 35 rooms sounds like enough
that you must have done something points-worthy to get to some of
them. spoiler space or private mail, as you prefer.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Volemo er verde!


Graham Nelson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
In article <37CA36EE...@melbpc.org.au>, Andrew Plukss

<URL:mailto:plu...@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> I have found that using the command CLIMB STATUE (or CLIMB+another word)
> produces a normal response but using the single word command CLIMB
> produces "ABORT occurred from a non-exit". Fortunately the game doesn't
> crash at this point and carries on as if nothing happened.

That would be my fault, yes. We did say the translator was new!
It won't in any way impact on play.

--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom


har...@math.princeton.edu

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
I've solved all puzzles I've noticed, I've got 610 points,
I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
endgame. What am I missing? Is this a bug?

Harald
har...@math.princeton.edu
P.S. I'm enjoying Sangraal immensely.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
On 30-Aug-99 13:29:21, haraldh said:
>I've solved all puzzles I've noticed, I've got 610 points,
>I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
>endgame. What am I missing? Is this a bug?

It's probably not a bug... I've finished all three of Fyleet, Sangraal
and Crobe during testing so they can all be done.

Hmm... what could it be... something a little obscure, probably.

spoiler space.....

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Have you rescued Eurydice?
Found the golden calf?
Have the two witches departed?
Did you get all three rewards from nastil-xarn?
Did you get both the ruby and the emerald?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
British Go Association: http://www.britgo.demon.co.uk/


Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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On 30-Aug-99 13:29:21, haraldh said:

>I've solved all puzzles I've noticed, I've got 610 points,
>I've sharpened Wren, but I am still not allowed to enter the
>endgame. What am I missing?

It doesn't seem likely, but I suppose you COULD have missed one of the
treasures in the rotating maze.

I'll see what score I have just before entering the endgame.

>P.S. I'm enjoying Sangraal immensely.

Super. :-)

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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On 30-Aug-99 15:22:45, Adam Atkinson said:

>I'll see what score I have just before entering the endgame.

620

So I guess there's just one thing you haven't done.

Have you freed Lot's wife?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Ordinary decent people in this country are sick and tired of being told
that ordinary decent people in this country are fed up with being sick
and tired. I am certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that
I am. (M. Python)


Lucian Paul Smith

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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har...@math.princeton.edu wrote:

: I've sharpened Wren,

<snip>

Hey, did you have to >SCRAPE PARROT to do so?

-Lucian


[Sorry about not helping, but I haven't played the game yet.]

har...@math.princeton.edu

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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Ooops. I had forgotten to bring E. to the M.P.

I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
importuned him, and the strongest possible injunction to all others
to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.

Harald
har...@math.princeton.edu

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
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On 30-Aug-99 20:55:30, haraldh said:
>Ooops. I had forgotten to bring E. to the M.P.

Aha! Yes, that seemed one of the more likely ones. That's about the
only puzzle that stops Sangraal being non-ruinable.

>I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
>importuned him

s'ok. Looking at the source, I think you ought to be able to get into
the endgame with 610 points, actually. I'll ask Graham if there's a
possible problem here.

>, and the strongest possible injunction to all others
>to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.

It is quite fun, isn't it? :-)

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
I am never forget the day I first meet great Lobachevsky. In one
word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarise.


J R Partington

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
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In article <7qer3t$aco$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> har...@math.princeton.edu writes:
>
>I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
>importuned him, and the strongest possible injunction to all others

>to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.
>

Congratulations. Sorry we can't add you the blackboard in Nastil-Xarn,
but you know how it is...

Jonathan Partington

---

In "Kingdom of the Leather Pharaoh of Bradford," you escape the old
lady by climbing a tree but don't forget to throw the amulet.

David Thornley

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Sep 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/4/99
to
In article <634.908T164T...@mistral.co.uk>,
Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
>
>> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
>>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.

>
>The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
>shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
>ancient key under the bed".
>
I have no problems with two-word parsers, provided I know that's what
I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
"l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.
(Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
these, but I rather doubt it.)

Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?


--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

Adam Atkinson

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Sep 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/4/99
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On 04-Sep-99 14:00:52, David Thornley said:

>I have no problems with two-word parsers, provided I know that's what
>I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
>"l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.

"examine" won't do you any good in any of these games anyway. it works
in Sangraal, but produces the same message every time.

>(Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
>It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
>these, but I rather doubt it.)

>Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?

I don't know what Graham will say ("no" seems likely). One problem
with this sort of thing is that it might introduce problems of some
odd kind - e.g. "l" already has a meaning in Sangraal, though I don't
think "x" does.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
If I were a fuzzy wuzzy bear
3 would be a perfect square


Peter Killworth

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99
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As one of the authors potentially involved in some of the
re-releases which are being discussed, can I just make a loud
noise.
I HATE EXAMINE!
There, I feel better...
Far too many games involve "puzzles" whose solution is
"Oh, you didn't notice you could 'x minefield' or
'search countryside' because these were built into room
descriptions". I was brought up to believe that the computer
was your eyes and hands. Thus if the dial is set to 8, you
get told this, without having to say 'x dial' every time.

(Clearly 'read book' and the like are legitimate; just looking
at the book isn't going to tell you all about its contents.)
Even dear Anchorhead required, after the player has set dials
properly on the safe and it opens, that the player has to 'look
in safe'. I mean, he/she is standing there by the safe,
watching it open... surely (s)he notices the contents?? What is
wrong with "the safe slowly opens, revealing an x, a y and a z"?

I might also point out that the old games (which basically
didn't like statements such as 'insert a in b', etc.) had puzzles
which didn't depend on getting the right form of words. Thus the
subtlety was *solving* the puzzle, not figuring out the vocab.
(OK, there were some exceptions, at least one of which I
was responsible for, and I apologise...)
Peter Killworth
-----


David Thornley wrote:
>
> In article <634.908T164T...@mistral.co.uk>,
> Adam Atkinson <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
> >
> >> While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
> >>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
> >>fifteen minutes. Yes I know it's from the '80s. Yes I appreciate the
> >>work that went into it. Yes I know I'm spoiled.
> >
> >The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> >shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> >ancient key under the bed".
> >

> I have no problems with two-word parsers, provided I know that's what
> I'm using, but I *really*, *really* miss using "x" for examine and
> "l" for look and all of those other newfangled abbreviations.

> (Disclaimer: I only played Sangraal, and that for a short time.
> It is possible I missed something, or that the other games might have
> these, but I rather doubt it.)
>
> Pretty please, Graham, with four kinds of fluff on it?
>

> --
> David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
> da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
> http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

--
Dr. Peter D. Killworth, James Rennell Division for Ocean Circulation
and Climate, Southampton Oceanography Centre, Empress Dock, Southampton
SO14 3ZH, England.
Tel: +44 (0)23-80596202
Fax: +44 (0)23-80596204
Email: P.Kil...@soc.soton.ac.uk
Web: http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/JRD/PROC/people/pki/pki.html
Ocean Modelling Newsletter: http://www.elsevier.nl/locate/omodol/

J R Partington

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99