Selections for Children

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Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Time was when I would have consulted Deja for past threads on this,
but Deja is raising its idiocy quotient with increasingly faithful
regularity these days, so I'll risk repeating a past thread...

I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in
the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games. Mostly
the kids play Bugdom and Franklin stuff and so forth, but I'd
like to have a handful of more intellectual stuff sitting
around just in case any children should be so inclined. One
can hope. Anyway, it doesn't have to be aimed at *young*
children necessarily -- we have junior high age kids playing
the games all the time. But I'm looking for suggestions of
IF (preferably all z-code, since I'd like to install just
one terp, although I could maybe be talked into one other
system) that is not in any appreciable way inappropriate
for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong
language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are
trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
*their* definition of corruption.)

So far I've come up with Toyshop (the Inform example game,
which is really more of a demonstration than a game).

Other suggestions?

- jonadab

Jake Wildstrom

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <39935af...@news.bright.net>,

Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
>play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong
>language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are
>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>*their* definition of corruption.)
>
>So far I've come up with Toyshop (the Inform example game,
>which is really more of a demonstration than a game).

A Bear's Night Out is a nice one. You could always put Zorks on there too.
Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).
Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
toned-down language in the first scene.

Planetfall would be very good too if you have a spare legal copy.

Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum. The sex
scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

Ross Presser

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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alt.distingu...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly
One).wrote.posted.offered:


>Other suggestions?

Mother Loose.
Zero Sum Game.
Photopia. (Yes, it's possible to be inappropriate, but it doesn't get
you any satisfying response, and it probably won't occur to most kids.)
Wishbringer.

--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
A blank is ya know, like, a tab or a space. A name is like wow! a
sequence of ASCII letters, oh, baby, digits, like, or underscores,
fer shure, beginnin' with a letter or an underscore.

Sarah E. Bergstrom

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:

: Other suggestions?

Adventure (the grandaddy of 'em all, and allows for a lot of exploration),
many of the "mansion crawls", though I'm blanking on a lot of the names of
those -- there was a pretty simple but well-coded one here a while back
that involved finding some geometric shapes. I think Not Just an Ordinary
Ballerina probably would work.
Spider and Web would work with older kids, and I think kids too young to
get the message or get to the disturbing parts would get bored before they
figured it out.
If a completely bugfixed version of The Water Bird has been released,
I think it might be a good choice.
The original Zorks, and Spiritwrak.

If you have a copy that can be used w/o copyright issues, Journey and Zork
Zero might be good since the graphics will catch kids' eyes.
*Sarah*

--
"It's like those cartoons of the roadrunner and me. They get shown time
and time again, and the same thing happens every time the cartoon gets
shown. It doesn't ever change, no matter how many times you show the
cartoon. The roadrunner always gets away. You know what? I wouldn't
have it any other way. I just love that cartoon even though I know I am
going to get blown to bits, flattened, made a fool of every time."
---Webster Kitchell, in "God's Dog: Conversations with Coyote"
***Sarah Bergstrom <sar...@sccs.swarthmore.edu>***

Kathleen M. Fischer

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <39935af...@news.bright.net>,

jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:

> But I'm looking for suggestions of
> IF (preferably all z-code, since I'd like to install just
> one terp, although I could maybe be talked into one other
> system) that is not in any appreciable way inappropriate
> for children.

Mother Loose

Kathleen

--
-- The Cove - Best of Landscape, Interactive Fiction Art Show 2000
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Cove.z5
--
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Jason Compton

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:

: Wishbringer.

Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.

The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline
aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jason Compton

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Jake Wildstrom <wil...@mit.edu> wrote:

: Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).

Think like a paranoid parent: You have to drink to get anywhere in the
game.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jason Compton

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Sarah E. Bergstrom <sar...@sccs.swarthmore.edu> wrote:

: The original Zorks

Another nutty fundamentalist alert:

<with spoiler space just in case>


In Zork I, you have to perform a pseudo-religious ceremony
In Zork II, there's a lot of "occult" magic.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jake Wildstrom

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <8n19t6$mvl$1...@flood.xnet.com>,

And in Witness there's the matter of Mrs. Linder and Stiles's affair. Also,
even if you don't see that as a problem, you probably want to turn on the
Tandy bit.

Jason Compton

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Jake Wildstrom <wil...@mit.edu> wrote:

: And in Witness there's the matter of Mrs. Linder and Stiles's affair. Also,


: even if you don't see that as a problem, you probably want to turn on the
: Tandy bit.

True, although it's off-camera. Decent enough point.

Does the Tandy bit affect the plot? Or just keep you from getting
responses to dirty suggestions?

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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On 11-Aug-00 10:46:39, Jonadab the Unsightly One said:

>I just don't want occult activity [...]


>Parents are
>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>*their* definition of corruption.)

How loony are these parents? Is Colossal Cave unacceptable
on the grounds that XYZZY, being a magic word, constitutes
occult activity?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
alt.folklore.computers FAQ: http://www.best.com/~wilson/faq/


Domokov

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Winter Wonderland and The Arrival from past competitions both seem like obvious
choices for this.

Ian F.

Jon Ingold

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:8n19t6$mvl$1...@flood.xnet.com...

> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.

Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.

There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.

Jon

Jake Wildstrom

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <8n1ddd$p2k$1...@flood.xnet.com>,

There are 12 places in Witness where the Tandy code is used:

2 of them are responses to destructive activities, which normally merits the
response "Vandalism is for private dicks, not famous police detectives". The
Tandy bit changes "dicks" to "eyes".

When you ASK STILES ABOUT PHONG, he tells you "He seems straight, but I don't
really trust slanteyes.". 'slanteyes' becomes 'his kind'.

ASK MONICA ABOUT MURDER yields "Isn't it obvious? That bastard Stiles squibbed
him off!". 'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.

Similarly, if before you accuse her you ASK MONICA ABOUT STILES: "That bastard
who killed Dad? I'd spit in his face if it was worth the trouble." As above,
'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.

And after you accuse her, she'll say "That poor bastard. First he fell in love
with Mother, a married woman; then he actually trusted her husband. I don't know
what he uses for brains." As above, 'bastard' becomes 'idiot'.

ASK MONICA ABOUT PHONG: "He's a right gee, no matter what some people say about
his race." 'race' becomes 'kind'.

Most actions you try to take on Monica result in her saying:
"I don't know what game you're playing, Detective, but count me out. If you think
I'm just a dumb twist, think again." 'twist' becomes 'twit'.

If a game fails to SAVE (or SUSPEND) it says that "Your story couldn't be
suspended. Consult your instruction manual if necessary." Tandy added
"or Reference Card" to that phrase.

If you surprise Monica in the workshop, she says "My God, you gave me a start!".
The word "God" is removed in Tandy.

The VERSION command under Tandy says "Licensed to Tandy Corporation."

Somewhere in the game is the phrase "Necrophilia went out with fur coats!" which
is Tandyified to "You can't be that desperate!". I have no idea what input yields
this result. Anyone? I've tried the obvious actions.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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On 11-Aug-00 17:30:24, Jon Ingold said:

>Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
>anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.

You haven't met many loonies, then. There are fundamentalist wackos
who would object to any portrayal of magic. And indeed to the teaching
of foreign languages in schools on the grounds that English was the
language the Bible was written in, and is thus good enough for their
children.

I don't know if the stories were true or just urban legends, but when
I lived in Houston I saw stuff about parents objecting to "The Diary
of Anne Frank" on the grounds that it promoted tolerance of other
religions. Clearly, such people would _have_ to object to "The Wizard
of Oz", "Mary Poppins", the Narnia books, "The Phoenix and the
Carpet", "Five Children and It", "Peter Pan", ...

>There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?

Have a look at http://www.capalert.com/

I'm not sure if it's a parody or not, but it gives the, er, "right"
idea.

You must have seen stuff in the news about some ultra-Christian
schools in the UK banning Harry Potter?

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
XYZZY


Jason Compton

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Jon Ingold <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

: Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard


: anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.

: There's quite a hefty difference between "magic" and "occult", surely.

To me, sure! Not to everyone, though.

And I'm virtually certain I've seen Narnia show up on school library
banned lists.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jake Wildstrom

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <8n1esj$275$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,

Jon Ingold <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
>anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.

I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian morals". I
really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some sense into
them.

Kayrun

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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Would "Sunset Over Savannah" be a good choice here? (I can't remember the
whole story!)


Arcum Dagsson

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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In article <39944bd1$0$94...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>,
wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

> In article <8n1esj$275$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Jon Ingold <j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never heard
> >anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
>
> I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian
> morals". I
> really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some
> sense into
> them.

Narnia. Contrary to Christian morals. Really.

When I reread "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe", I found that to
get it more Christian, you'd need to change all occurances of "Aslan"
to "Jesus"...

Amazing what nonsense people can think sometimes...

--
--Arcum Dagsson
"You say there's a horse in your bathroom, and all you can do is stand
there naming Beatles songs?"

jjkc

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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A Day for Soft Food.

It's about a cat. No magic. I liked it, and I'm sure would have liked
it even at 10-12.

-Jim

Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

> I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in

> the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games.... But I'm looking for suggestions of
> IF
>

TenthStone

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Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
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On 11 Aug 2000 14:09:07 GMT, wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

>In article <39935af...@news.bright.net>,


>Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:

>>for children. (Difficulty is okay; the daunted can always
>>play Bugdom. I just don't want occult activity, strong

>>language, sexual innuendo, and so forth. Parents are

>>trusting us not to corrupt their kids according to
>>*their* definition of corruption.)
>

>Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
>toned-down language in the first scene.

(spoilers)

Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
*is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
drunk driver. That's hardly a kiddie theme; I think most parents
would prefer to broach that subject themselves and at their own pace.

----------------
The Imperturbable TenthStone
tenth...@hotmail.com pie...@humour.com

Torbjörn Andersson

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

> Somewhere in the game is the phrase "Necrophilia went out with fur
> coats!" which is Tandyified to "You can't be that desperate!". I have
> no idea what input yields this result. Anyone? I've tried the obvious
> actions.

I remember getting that message. I don't know if there's any other
way, but try taking the corpse's shoes.

Torbjörn

Andrew Plotkin

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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TenthStone <tenth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2000 14:09:07 GMT, wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
>
>>Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
>>toned-down language in the first scene.
>
> (spoilers)
>
> Um. Don't forget that, while it does have beautiful moments, Photopia
> *is* also the tragic tale of a wonderful young girl being killed by a
> drunk driver.

So is _Bridge to Terabithia_ (s/drunk driver/swimming accident/) and we
read *that* in elementary school.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

Carl Muckenhoupt

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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In article <39940903$0$94...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>,
wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

> You could always put Zorks on there too.

I've seen complaints about occultism in the Zorks - specifically, the
ritual to enter the Land of the Dead in Zork 1 and the whole Demon
business in Zork 2.

> Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a
version with
> toned-down language in the first scene.

Possibly through use of the tandy bit?

> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum.
The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.

True. It's done in a very Hollywood-censor kind of way. Essentially,
the hero and the love interest kiss, and next thing you know it's
morning.

Another suggestion: "Firebird", by Bonnie Montgomery. It's based on
Russian fairy tales, and I remember it as being accessible to children.
There is a certain amount of violence in it - what's a fairy tale
without an ogre-slaying or two, after all? - but I think you'd probably
find it acceptable. Give it a try.

Carl Muckenhoupt

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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> >Oh, come on! Every kids story *ever* has magic in it. I've never
heard
> >anyone complain about Narnia, for instance.
>
> I have. In particular, I've heard it called "contrary to Christian
morals". I
> really want to grab people who say that kind of thing and shake some
sense into
> them.

Wow. That's like calling _Animal Farm_ communist propaganda.

Carl Muckenhoupt

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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In article <39940903$0$94...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>,
wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum.
The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.

Another comment on this: As with "Hitchhiker's Guide", there is a scene
in Jigsaw that requires the player character to consume alcohol.

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:

> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.

It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
there, but...

> The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline
> aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
> Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.

Early-on is the worst time, because that's what most of the
kids will see.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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wil...@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:

> A Bear's Night Out is a nice one.

I'll check on that one. I had forgotten about it.

> You could always put Zorks on there too.

A little too much, perhaps.

> Hitchhiker's Guide too, I suppose (although I'm fuzzy on its legal issues).

I was looking for things I could install without a purchase order.
I'm just the computer guy; I normally don't make buying decisions
(although they did recently let me write up the K&R and a handful
of other books).

> Photopia, perhaps? Well, maybe if Adam was willing to produce a version with
> toned-down language in the first scene.

I'm going to read through Photopia again and see how appropriate
I think it is or is not.

> Jigsaw seems pretty good on the insanely hard end of the spectrum. The sex
> scene is vague enough that I think you could get away with it.

I never liked Jigsaw. Not sure why, since Curses was my
all-time favourite.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:

> Another suggestion: "Firebird", by Bonnie Montgomery. It's based on
> Russian fairy tales, and I remember it as being accessible to children.
> There is a certain amount of violence in it - what's a fairy tale
> without an ogre-slaying or two, after all? - but I think you'd probably
> find it acceptable. Give it a try.

I'll have a look at it.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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"Sarah E. Bergstrom" <sar...@sccs.swarthmore.edu> wrote:

> Adventure (the grandaddy of 'em all, and allows for a lot of exploration),

You know, I wasn't thinking of it, but it might just work.

> I think Not Just an Ordinary
> Ballerina probably would work.

[Reads review]

Okay, add requiring the player to perform criminal breaking
and entering and theiving activities to the list of things
I don't want in the game. Picking up objects that are
sitting around is one thing, a firmly established IF
tradition, but forcing your way into a shopping mall is
something else again.

> Spider and Web would work with older kids, and I think
> kids too young to get the message or get to the
> disturbing parts would get bored before they
> figured it out.

Hmmm... I'll think about that one. But really while
I said, "difficulty doesn't bother me" I didn't mean
that *no* quantity of difficulty was too much. Next
people will be suggesting the Phoenix games.

> If a completely bugfixed version of The Water Bird has been released,
> I think it might be a good choice.

"the water bird" is too general for search engines. Where
can I find this one?

> If you have a copy that can be used w/o copyright issues, Journey and Zork
> Zero might be good since the graphics will catch kids' eyes.

If I wanted graphics I've got Bugdom and Nanosaur and so on and
so forth. Not quite up to the level of PC games, but I don't
think an iMac can handle that really. They're terribly slow.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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Kathleen M. Fischer <green_g...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Mother Loose

Ah.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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jjkc <jj...@warwick.net> wrote:

> A Day for Soft Food.
>
> It's about a cat.

Cool. That might be well received.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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"Adam Atkinson" <gh...@mistral.co.uk> wrote:

> How loony are these parents? Is Colossal Cave unacceptable
> on the grounds that XYZZY, being a magic word, constitutes
> occult activity?

No, I wouldn't worry about that.

How loony? In all probability nobody would complain about
I/O, but I don't want to chance it, at least not without
getting a better feel for how IF will be received. Call
me paranoid.

I might decide to relent on the scroll-collecting type
of magic if initial experiments go well in terms of the
games being somewhat popular. Popularity is a very
esteemed thing around here and can make up for a lot.
Which is loony, but nevermind.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:

> I work in a public library, and we have a couple of iMacs in
> the Children's Room that are dedicated to playing games.

[and want to put some if on them]

It occurs to me that I don't know a great deal about Mac
interpreters, and...

I'd like for each game to have its own entry in the Panels
account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?

- jonadab

Jason Compton

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:

:> The Infocom games can pose license troubles, but Witness and Deadline


:> aren't bad choices--in Deadline, the violence is off-screen, and in
:> Witness it's only early on in the proceedings.

: Early-on is the worst time, because that's what most of the
: kids will see.

Yeah, but there are plenty of young adult stories that deal with murder
and murder investigations, some more grisly than old man Linder being shot
in the chest (View From the Cherry Tree, which I believe may have been a
Newberry award winner, springs to mind, in which an old lady is hung from
her binocular straps in front of the protagonist.)

As you say, you want stuff that's free, but I bet they'd be OK.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

KayCee

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/tads/waterbrd.gam
...KayCee

"Jonadab the Unsightly One" <jon...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:39952bd7...@news.bright.net...


>
> "the water bird" is too general for search engines. Where
> can I find this one?
>

> - jonadab

Stephen Rogers

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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The cat's name in that book was Son of a Bitch. SOB for short.

Stephen Granade

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
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jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) writes:

> Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > : Wishbringer.
> >
> > Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> > poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> > involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.
>
> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> even flinch.

Not all parents. There has been a hue and cry from some parents about
the occult influences of Harry Potter.

Stephen

--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About Interactive Fiction
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com

Stephen Granade

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
dom...@aol.com (Domokov) writes:

> Winter Wonderland and The Arrival from past competitions both seem
> like obvious choices for this.

Now I'm really interested in knowing how kids would respond to
Arrival.

Jon Ingold

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to

> Wow. That's like calling _Animal Farm_ communist propaganda.

Animal Farm isn't a comment on communism in general, it's a comment on
Russia circa 1920.

Of course, that could be *interpreted* as a comment on communism.

Jon

Jason Compton

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
Stephen Rogers <azea...@home.com> wrote:

: Jason Compton wrote:

:> in the chest (View From the Cherry Tree, which I believe may have been a


:> Newberry award winner, springs to mind, in which an old lady is hung from
:> her binocular straps in front of the protagonist.)

:>
: The cat's name in that book was Son of a Bitch. SOB for short.

Ahah! See, I knew I was on to something.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Paul O'Brian

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
> even flinch.

Oh, don't they?

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/00/01/st012722.html
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter/
http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_04.htm
http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/genl/A0008833.html

Those came up in the first 10 hits of a .3-second search on "harry potter
parents occult." I'm sure if you're interested, you could find a *lot*
more.

--
Paul O'Brian obr...@colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
The pulse-pounding, electrifying, edge-of-your-seat event you've been waiting
for is here! Yes, SPAG #21 is out! http://www.sparkynet.com/spag


Jason Compton

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
Paul O'Brian <obr...@ucsu.colorado.edu> wrote:

: On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

:> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
:> even flinch.

: Oh, don't they?

It was a no-brainer that this stuff would happen...our friend is just
lucky enough not to have encountered the problem in his (?) library
district just yet.

Anyway, if I was completely freaking nuts like these people, I imagine I
would find, say, Enchanter even more offensive than a Harry Potter book,
because in Harry Potter, kids are only reading ABOUT occult forces,
whereas in Enchanter, they in the first person are encouraged and in fact
compelled (if they want to get anywhere in the game) to personally choose
to take those actions.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jason Compton

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:

: Other suggestions?

Since I've contributed mightily to taking this thread off-topic, might I
also suggest:

- A Change In the Weather
- Spacestation
- Vindaloo (not necessarily a great game, but hey, they'll be exposed to
foreign food!)
- Some Scott Adams adventures would probably be OK, but you'd have to
check
(and they're freeware, so you don't have to worry)
-

Of course, if you want to be popular with the kids, just put Blow Job
Drifter up and be done with it. :)

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Dan Knapp

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Aug 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/12/00
to
>And I'm virtually certain I've seen Narnia show up on school library
>banned lists.

'Cause Christianity isn't considered neutral by everybody. The
librarians I've known, school or otherwise, have all been strong
activists against banned lists of any sort, happily.

--
| Dan Knapp, Knight of the Random Seed
| http://www.angband.org/~dankna/
| ONES WHO DOES NOT HAVE TRIFORCE CAN'T GO IN.

Unknown

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:24:59 GMT, jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the
Unsightly One) wrote:

>It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't

>even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
>even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
>what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
>there, but...

Acutally I just read an article in the local paper where I live (AJC)
and there is a pretty big amount of hubbub going on about those books.
Oh course I live in the veritable buckle of the bible-belt, but these
people are just plain looney. They say that the lightning bolt on
Harry's head is an "S" for satan and that it teaches kids about the
occult and so on and so forth. I find that really creepy that this
kind of thought still lives on in this day and age. I read all the HP
books and I find them absolutely wonderful. Great light fantasy that I
would have no problem giving to my children (if I had any). Oh well,
this is completely off-topic so I am gonna stop here.


Jason Compton

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
Dan Knapp <dan...@angband.org> wrote:
:>And I'm virtually certain I've seen Narnia show up on school library
:>banned lists.

: 'Cause Christianity isn't considered neutral by everybody.

Yeah, except that I don't think it was being banned for its Christian
allegorical components--more the sword 'n sorcery bits.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) wrote:

> Mother Loose.

Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
determine how to implement it.

Oh, and it seems appropriate enough for children, too, that
I might include it, which is a nice bonus.

And I never knew Irene had *finished* a game. I only knew
about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.

Only trouble is, I don't know most of the nursery rhymes,
so I'm having trouble "getting" anything much. I think
I understand the egg and the wolf. The stuff in the
village goes right over my head, I'm afraid. But probably
a good percentage of kids know the nursery rhymes well
enough to do somewhat better.

- jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:

> Ross Presser <rpre...@nospamimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> : Wishbringer.
>
> Wishbringer is probably out of the question, because as the original
> poster pointed out, they need to avoid "occult" themes and Wishbringer
> involves magic. Some parents get really twitchy about that sort of thing.

I've never played Wishbringer. How occult is its magic?
Is it fairy-tale magic, scroll-collecting magic, or the
genuine article? I wouldn't worry much about a magic bean
that grows into a beanstalk and a harp that plays itself, for
example. I have not made a final decision about scrolls and
elves and that sort of thing, and thet nature of the spells
might matter. I definitely want to avoid real occult stuff
(ouja, tarot, channelling, ...). I like Curses, but I first
saw it at age 21 or so after having developed some discernment,
and I'm not entirely sure a lot of parents would be pleased
with its content for children.

- jonadab

Jason Compton

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:

: I've never played Wishbringer. How occult is its magic?

: Is it fairy-tale magic, scroll-collecting magic, or the
: genuine article?

<spoilers ahead>

Each spell (well, wish) requires two things: a magic stone (for all the
wishes) and a wish-specific object that you employ or consume before
making the wish. (like an umbrella and the stone let you wish for rain,
etc.) It's not chanting and sacrificing virgins magic.

--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com

Joachim Froholt

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to

Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

You might want to try Ralph as well (this one is about a dog) - although
some parents might get a bit freaked out by the fact that you can dig
holes in the lawn (and worse, the herb garden) ;-)

Joachim

Karl Ove Hufthammer

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
<Oldtench> wrote in message
news:l09cpsk3ssqr6je6c...@4ax.com...

| On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:24:59 GMT, jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the
| Unsightly One) wrote:
|
| >It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't
| >even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
| >even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
| >what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
| >there, but...
|
| Acutally I just read an article in the local paper where I live (AJC)
| and there is a pretty big amount of hubbub going on about those books.

Yup. And chain letters circulating <URL:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa080900b.
htm >. Scary ... :(

--#
Karl Ove Hufthammer

Stark

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.100081...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
Paul O'Brian <obr...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
>
>> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't even
>> flinch.
>
> Oh, don't they?
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/news/00/01/st012722.html
> http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter/
> http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_04.htm
> http://www.family.org/pplace/pi/genl/A0008833.html
>
> Those came up in the first 10 hits of a .3-second search on "harry
> potter parents occult." I'm sure if you're interested, you could find a
> *lot* more.
>

And, of course, not forgetting:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html
(warning: some adult content at the end...)

<grin>

Stark


paulo...@my-deja.com

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
In article <3995f73a...@news.bright.net>,

jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
> And I never knew Irene had *finished* a game. I only knew
> about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.

Actually, she's finished *two* games. The other one is the huge,
neverending WIP that she just barely (a matter of bytes) managed to fit
in a .z8. It's called Dangerous Curves. games/zcode/curves.z8

Paul

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Torbjörn Andersson

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:

> It's funny. We can give kids Harry Potter books and parents don't

> even flinch. But I'd be worried about giving them an IF game with
> even so much as spell casting. Parents are bizarre sometimes about
> what they consider harmful. Otherwise I'd want to put Curses on
> there, but...

Indeed. I'm not familiar with Harry Potter, but I know one of my
favorite fairy tales as a kid was the one about Hansel and Gretel,
which involves parents abandoning children, a witch, vandalism (or
whatever you'd call eating part of someone's house), cannibalism,
burning someone alive, theft, ...

Oh well. Has anyone mentioned "The One That Got Away" yet? I'd suggest
"A Change in the Weather" as another non-offensive game, but that
one's pretty frustrating...

Torbjörn

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
On 13-Aug-00 16:44:56, Torbjörn Andersson said:

>Indeed. I'm not familiar with Harry Potter, but I know one of my
>favorite fairy tales as a kid was the one about Hansel and Gretel,
>which involves parents abandoning children, a witch, vandalism (or
>whatever you'd call eating part of someone's house), cannibalism,
>burning someone alive, theft, ...

Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
own children on altars, genocide, ...

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
"I got the first three wrong" he said, forthrightly.


Jon Ingold

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
> Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
> fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
> own children on altars, genocide, ...

Yeah, that was one thing I never got: God was narked with Cain because he
wouldn't sacrifice his best goat (either that, or liked Abel because he
_did_ sacrifice his best goat). But this is a totally _different_ kind of
blood sacrifice to your pagan worship.

But as my self-appointed Christian Union "dad" in my first year at uni told
me - a lot of the beginning of the Bible is "metaphorical".

Jon

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
On 13-Aug-00 17:17:22, Jon Ingold said:
>> Well, this "Bible" thing that some of these parents are probably big
>> fans of includes incest, rape, murder, people almost sacrificing their
>> own children on altars, genocide, ...

>Yeah, that was one thing I never got: God was narked with Cain because he
>wouldn't sacrifice his best goat (either that, or liked Abel because he
>_did_ sacrifice his best goat). But this is a totally _different_ kind of
>blood sacrifice to your pagan worship.

And the business with Abraham and Isaac was... what, exactly?

>But as my self-appointed Christian Union "dad" in my first year at uni told
>me - a lot of the beginning of the Bible is "metaphorical".

You forget that the fruitcakes we're talking about here, or some of
them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
I'm sure they'll listen to Reason. (H. Protagonist)


Jon Ingold

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
> You forget that the fruitcakes we're talking about here, or some of
> them at least, think the entire thing is literally true. Even the
> bits that contradict other bits, no doubt. Which means of course that
> these people will believe anything. But we knew that already.

Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
"hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
dating doesn't work.

She doesn't go *quite* so far as to say that pi is 3 - and that scientists
are just "lying" - which some Biblist's do (Solomon's cup is three times
round as it is across, apparently - she says it wasn't the circumference
given isn't that around the rim and it probably tapered), which is
something, as she's doing a Maths course.

It's a bit arrogant really - she says she believes it because "God saved
here life twice." Well, you can't really argue with that, I suppose. I asked
why God saved her and not my mother's friend who was hit by a train. She
said it's God's plan. I asked what God's plan was. She said we couldn't know
God's plan because it's God's plan. I said well then, how can we tell the
difference between God's plan and, say, total random chance. She didn't
answer, but I have a feeling her answer would have been "Because *I* was
saved", which sounds harsh - but then, it seems much more significant if it
happens to you yourself than someone else, doesn't it? It could hardly not
do, I don't deny that.

[ At a Mathematician's meal we had last year, I got put at one end of the
table with my Christian Union Dad, and her next to me. Neither of them
drink, I did; toward the end of the evening they were beginning to win the
argument.]

Anyway. If people want to believe this, fine. Just don't ban Harry Potter
from everyone else.

-- oh, on a related note: if the slash on Potter's head is an 'S' for Satan,
how does Satan intend to corrupt kids by this, since it's a bit
overly-subtle? You'd only notice it was an S if you thought about it, and
only attribute it to Satan if, say, you were always going to. Is the Evil
One this cunning?

Jon


Matthew T. Russotto

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
In article <8n5ca8$2v3$1...@flood.xnet.com>,

Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
}
}Each spell (well, wish) requires two things: a magic stone (for all the
}wishes) and a wish-specific object that you employ or consume before
}making the wish. (like an umbrella and the stone let you wish for rain,
}etc.) It's not chanting and sacrificing virgins magic.

Unless you turn the Tandy bit on, and make the Piracy opcode work the
reverse way. Then you get a few extra wishes ("Wish for sex appeal",
"Wish for riches", "Wish for power"), but you need to kill someone
each time you use them. Also the game changes its name to "Friday
the 13th: Vendredi's Revenge".
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
On 13-Aug-00 17:54:53, Jon Ingold said:

>Well, yeah. There's a girl on my course at uni - who if she's listening,
>"hello, I'm dissing you!", but she won't be - who believes the Bible word
>for word. Fair enough. She says evolution is fundamentally flawed, and the
>reason carbon-dating puts the world older than the Bible does is that carbon
>dating doesn't work.

When it's useful to do so, I claim that I believe the entire universe
was created by my cat 25 minutes ago, complete with people, their
memories, objects in motion, etc. And there's nothing you can do to
disprove it, etc. etc. Obviously, my cat created Bibles and suchlike
as a bizarre joke.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
What's yellow and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice? Zorn's lemon.


irene

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
>rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) wrote:
>
>> Mother Loose.
>
>Hey, I never looked at that before, and let me just say that
>I'm very pleased with what has been done in the status bar
>of this game. I may have to appropriate that idea if I can
>determine how to implement it.

Why, thank you! The status bar is easy, although it may need
some tweaking for odd rooms. In fact, here's my DrawStatusLine
code as is from ML, and you can do whatever you want with it:
-----
[ DrawStatusLine width;
@split_window 3; @set_window 1; style reverse; font off;
width = 0->33;
@set_cursor 1 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 2 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 3 1; spaces (0->33);
@set_cursor 1 2; print (name) location;
@set_cursor 1 48; print "Score: ", sline1;
@set_cursor 2 48; print "Moves: ", sline2;
if (location ~= thedark) {
! First line
if (location.nw_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 W_POS;
print "NW";
}
if (location.n_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 C_POS;
print "N";
}
if (location.ne_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 E_POS;
print "NE";
}
if (location.u_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 1 U_POS;
print "Up";
}
! Second line
if (location.w_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 W_POS + 1;
print "W";
}
@set_cursor 2 C_POS;
print "*";
if (location.e_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 E_POS;
print "E";
}
if (location.in_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS;
print "In";
}
if (location.out_to ~= 0 && location.in_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS + 3;
print "Out";
}
if (location.out_to ~= 0 && location.in_to == 0) {
@set_cursor 2 IN_POS;
print "Out";
}
! Third line
if (location.sw_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 W_POS;
print "SW";
}
if (location.s_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 C_POS;
print "S";
}
if (location.se_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 E_POS;
print "SE";
}
if (location.d_to ~= 0) {
@set_cursor 3 U_POS;
print "Down";
}
}
@set_cursor 1 1;
style roman;
@set_window 0;
font on;
];
-----


>Oh, and it seems appropriate enough for children, too, that
>I might include it, which is a nice bonus.
>

>And I never knew Irene had *finished* a game. I only knew
>about her neverending huge WIP that won't fit in z8.

I see Paul has already mentioned above that I've finished two
games: Mother Loose and Dangerous Curves (the huge WIP that
is done now only because I ran out of room).

>Only trouble is, I don't know most of the nursery rhymes,
>so I'm having trouble "getting" anything much. I think
>I understand the egg and the wolf. The stuff in the
>village goes right over my head, I'm afraid. But probably
>a good percentage of kids know the nursery rhymes well
>enough to do somewhat better.

Actually, you don't need to know the nursery rhymes to solve
ML. In fact, the less attention you pay to nursery rhymes in
general, the better. (Well, except for maybe the egg puzzle.)

irene


-----------------------------------------------------------

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Dan Knapp

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
>I'd like for each game to have its own entry in the Panels
>account (MacOS9). Is that possible? How would I do it?
>Should I be asking this on a Mac usenet group?

Well, I haven't used OS9... I imagine you could just add
the Z-code files, after using a utility such as can be found
on the if-archive ("IFConverter"?) to make sure their types
are set correctly. At any rate, after its type has been set,
double-clicking a z-code file will cause the interperter to
be opened and the game to be started.

Arcum Dagsson

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Aug 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/13/00
to
In article <8n6vja$cb6$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jon Ingold"
<j...@ingold.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> -- oh, on a related note: