Shattered Memory Disqualification
dhan
first of all, sorry for my english, I am spanish. I am very surprised
to see that ifcomp organizers have disqualified to Shattered Memory by
Third Author Rule. I have read (no remember where, perhaps because my
memory shatters) that this comps are organised to promote and play
more games of this kind, named by us "Aventuras conversacionales".
I invite you to know our Spanish this year comp that you can find in
http://usuarios.tripod.es/Urbatain website, and last year organised by
myself at http://www.geocities.com/lashojascaidas . We are open to
everybody who wants to participate and makes the effort to translate a
game.
Shattered Memory is a new game, a translated craft always is something
different to the original one, and was made to introduce you our IFs.
We have seen we are not welcome here, but I think you must be clearer
in your rules.
I accept organizers decission, but I want to know how many people have
decided this and if everybody thinks it is made justice.
Hasta la vista!
dhan
Stephen Granade
was away on vacation, Akbarr announced on rec.games.int-fiction that
his game "Shattered Memory" had been released in a Spanish interactive
fiction competition prior to being entered in the Annual Interactive
Fiction Competition. Upon returning I discovered this; his posting was
the first I had heard that "Shattered Memory" was released earlier in
a different form. Tonight I disqualified "Shattered Memory."
Now, on to your post.
dh...@interlap.com.ar (dhan) writes:
> first of all, sorry for my english, I am spanish. I am very surprised
> to see that ifcomp organizers have disqualified to Shattered Memory by
> Third Author Rule. I have read (no remember where, perhaps because my
> memory shatters) that this comps are organised to promote and play
> more games of this kind, named by us "Aventuras conversacionales".
The competition was indeed originally formulated to encourage the
creation of new pieces of interactive fiction. This purpose, however,
does not apply in your case. You had already created a game, and had
released it to the general (albeit Spanish-speaking) public. In fact,
the "creation of new works" purpose is part of the reason that I ask
for new games instead of ones which have already been released. This
is not a new rule: it has existed since the 1997 competition.
> Shattered Memory is a new game, a translated craft always is something
> different to the original one, and was made to introduce you our
> IFs.
Sorry, no. Were a piece of interactive fiction no more than the sum of
its text, I might agree with you. If we didn't care about the
*interactive* aspect of IF, I would merely have people enter
transcripts in the competition.
But I don't, and the community does care about more than the text. A
game also involves coding, puzzle design, and more. To my mind, there
are two purposes to the "Third Author Rule" which you violated, as I
explained in my mail to you. One purpose is to keep judges from having
the chance to form an opinion of your game before the competition
begins. Any Spanish-speaking player who voted in the Annual IF
Competition very possibly played your game, and thus formed an opinion
of it ahead of time. The other is to keep authors from getting
wide-audience feedback about their game prior to the competition. Such
feedback could conceivably let you fix bugs, tweak gameplay, and in
general do more to tailor your game to the audience. Disallowing
pre-released helps level the playing field.
> We have seen we are not welcome here, but I think you must be clearer
> in your rules.
If this is the message you are taking away from this, then you have
missed the point. I assume by "we" you mean "people who are
translating games." Such authors are welcome to enter the competition,
so long as they have not released your game in any form before the
beginning of the competition. And the author's rule which you claim
is not clear states:
3. All entries must be previously unreleased at the opening of
voting. If an entry has previously been circulated, it will be
disqualified. If you are unsure whether your game fails to meet
this rule, please ask me. Please note that this rule does not
prevent you from having your game tested by a few beta-testers.
By releasing your game to the public, you have clearly violated this
rule. I do not wish to discourage people from writing interactive
fiction, but I cannot allow such rule violations unless I wish the
rules to be meaningless.
> I accept organizers decission, but I want to know how many people have
> decided this and if everybody thinks it is made justice.
The competition is run by fiat. I run the competition; I make the
rules; I interpret the rules and judge any possible infractions such
as yours. I am always open to suggestions from the community at large,
but at the end of the day I must shoulder the responsibility for
judgement calls. So the answer to the first part of your question is
that one person has decided this.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade
sgra...@phy.duke.edu
Duke University, Physics Dept
Norman Perlmutter
wrote:
>> Shattered Memory is a new game, a translated craft always is something
>> different to the original one, and was made to introduce you our
>> IFs.
>
>And the author's rule which you claim
>is not clear states:
>
> 3. All entries must be previously unreleased at the opening of
> voting. If an entry has previously been circulated, it will be
> disqualified. If you are unsure whether your game fails to meet
> this rule, please ask me. Please note that this rule does not
> prevent you from having your game tested by a few beta-testers.
Perhaps this rule should be modified to explicitly disallow
translations of previously released works in order to avoid future
confusion.
Norman
Magnus Olsson
Stephen Granade <sgra...@phy.duke.edu> wrote:
>dh...@interlap.com.ar (dhan) writes:
>
>> Shattered Memory is a new game, a translated craft always is something
>> different to the original one, and was made to introduce you our
>> IFs.
>
>Sorry, no. Were a piece of interactive fiction no more than the sum of
>its text, I might agree with you.
The most natural analogy to make is perhaps that of "static" fiction.
A translation of a novel or short story is generally not considered a
new work. For example, when a literary prize for "best translated
novel" (or detective story, or SF novella, or whatever) is awarded, it
goes to the original author, not to the translator.
However, when it comes to poetry, translations have more of a status
of their own (because translating poetry means rewriting and
reinterpreting to a much larger extent than translating prose).
So I think the "only previously unreleased works" should be amended
so that it's clear that a release in a different language does count.
And how should we handle re-implementations in a different programming
language? I suppose I wouldn't be able to enter a Quest version
of ADVENT, for example?
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, m...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~mol ------
Elise Stone
wrote:
>For those of you who are unaware of what's been going on here: while I
>was away on vacation, Akbarr announced on rec.games.int-fiction that
>his game "Shattered Memory" had been released in a Spanish interactive
>fiction competition prior to being entered in the Annual Interactive
>Fiction Competition. Upon returning I discovered this; his posting was
>the first I had heard that "Shattered Memory" was released earlier in
>a different form. Tonight I disqualified "Shattered Memory."
>
<stuff snipped>
>The competition is run by fiat. I run the competition; I make the
>rules; I interpret the rules and judge any possible infractions such
>as yours. I am always open to suggestions from the community at large,
>but at the end of the day I must shoulder the responsibility for
>judgement calls. So the answer to the first part of your question is
>that one person has decided this.
>
>Stephen
While I hate to open up another can of worms, I do think there is
additional qualification on the rules needed. So, since this thread
has opened up the topic of rule interpretation, here goes:
While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
whatever-you-call-it.) My first reaction was that this surely must
break the rule about no usage of copyrighted work in your entry.
However, the rule isn't as clear as that ("Games must not be based
upon works currently under copyright unless permission is obtained
from the copyright holder.")
Since we had many more games employing multimedia this year, I think
it needs to be clearly defined as to whether music and graphics must
be original (or at least clear of copyright infringement) in addition
to the subject matter of the game being original.
(Now I've done it. "Rules" and "copyright" in the same message.
:::sigh:::)
dhan
First I want to clarify that I am not Shattered Memory´s Author
(Akbarr), I am dhan, so I haven´t a mail from you!! :-) When I said
"we" I was referring to Spanish community.
> In fact, the "creation of new works" purpose is part of the reason that I ask
> for new games instead of ones which have already been released. This
> is not a new rule: it has existed since the 1997 competition.
I didn´t know this.
> But I don't, and the community does care about more than the text. A
> game also involves coding, puzzle design, and more. To my mind, there
> are two purposes to the "Third Author Rule" which you violated, as I
> explained in my mail to you. One purpose is to keep judges from having
> the chance to form an opinion of your game before the competition
> begins. Any Spanish-speaking player who voted in the Annual IF
> Competition very possibly played your game, and thus formed an opinion
> of it ahead of time. The other is to keep authors from getting
> wide-audience feedback about their game prior to the competition. Such
> feedback could conceivably let you fix bugs, tweak gameplay, and in
> general do more to tailor your game to the audience. Disallowing
> pre-released helps level the playing field.
I agree with you, IF is more than a text. No doubt about it. But
betatester are allowed, aren´t they? Maybe you (english community)
don´t know that IF in Spain is a lesser concept, we are only about 20
persons that usually develope games and play them. I imagine that as
us, is the same in another countries. Can´t you consider this as a
lesser betatesting? Anyway I think is better the effort of translate
the game than directly present it in Spanish. (although is unrelease
yet).
> By releasing your game to the public, you have clearly violated this
> rule. I do not wish to discourage people from writing interactive
> fiction, but I cannot allow such rule violations unless I wish the
> rules to be meaningless.
Now you Know the few people that we are I request for you to consider
us like a betatesting team :-) or to clarify the rules to disallow
translations.
Greetings and thank you all for your games,
dhan (from Malaga, Spain)
Magnus Olsson
dhan <dh...@interlap.com.ar> wrote:
>No doubt about it. But
>betatester are allowed, aren´t they? Maybe you (english community)
>don´t know that IF in Spain is a lesser concept, we are only about 20
>persons that usually develope games and play them. I imagine that as
>us, is the same in another countries. Can´t you consider this as a
>lesser betatesting?
I can't speak for Stephen, of course, but I think that the thing is
that beta-testing doesn't count as a release because you only
circulate your game in a closed circle of people. A public release,
on the other hand - well, maybe if you're unlucky the game won't
be played by more people than when it was playtested, but there
are still a few differences:
You can't know how many people actually downloaded and played the
game. There are hundreds of millions of people with Spanish as their
first languages, and I suppose that lots of people with other first
languages know enough Spanish to play the game. And a public release
means that people may write reviews of the game, or discuss it on the
newsgroups.
So the problem is that once a game is publicly released, you - and the
Competition organizer - have no way of knowing how many of the judges
have seen it before, or heard about it, or read reviews. All these
things can bias the judgement.
>Anyway I think is better the effort of translate
>the game than directly present it in Spanish.
Considering the comments about the German game that was entered,
I agree.
Urbatain
I thinks it's a good idea (sorry by my bad english). I understand the
position of Stephen, but you must think about the great effort made by
Akbarr to translate his game. Maybe you must add a rule to allow
translations but previous released games to enter the comp. But I see
that maybe this could brake the point about "equality of conditions"
of the games.
So, please, think this a bit.
But I hope that Shattered Memory can enter the xyzzyawards; maybe
non-english people that wanna to translate some games must forget
about IF COMP and thinks only in the awards.
Thanks for your time.
Byes.
Cleric Urbatain.
Stephen Granade
Stephen Granade
> While I hate to open up another can of worms, I do think there is
> additional qualification on the rules needed. So, since this thread
> has opened up the topic of rule interpretation, here goes:
>
> While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
> consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
> Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
> whatever-you-call-it.) My first reaction was that this surely must
> break the rule about no usage of copyrighted work in your entry.
> However, the rule isn't as clear as that ("Games must not be based
> upon works currently under copyright unless permission is obtained
> from the copyright holder.")
>
> Since we had many more games employing multimedia this year, I think
> it needs to be clearly defined as to whether music and graphics must
> be original (or at least clear of copyright infringement) in addition
> to the subject matter of the game being original.
I think this is a reasonable addition to the rules, for the same
reason we've got the original copyright rule.
Steven Howard
>For those of you who are unaware of what's been going on here: while
>I was away on vacation, Akbarr announced on rec.games.int-fiction
>that his game "Shattered Memory" had been released in a Spanish
>interactive fiction competition prior to being entered in the Annual
>Interactive Fiction Competition. Upon returning I discovered this;
>his posting was the first I had heard that "Shattered Memory" was
>released earlier in a different form. Tonight I disqualified
>"Shattered Memory."
While we're on the subject of disqualifications, did you ever make a
ruling about "Timeout?"
--
Steven Howard
mrb...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrblore
OKB -- not okblacke
>But I hope that Shattered Memory can enter the xyzzyawards; maybe
>non-english people that wanna to translate some games must forget
>about IF COMP and thinks only in the awards.
Stephen has already said that this isn't the case. The trick is that you
can't enter previously-released works in the IFComp. I for one enjoyed
Shattered Memory, and I think it would be a great loss if bad blood developed
between the Spanish- and English-language IF communities because of this
disqualification. Of course Stephen has final say in this, but it seems clear
from his statements to date that games from the Spanish IF community are
welcomed in the IFComp as long as they have not been previously released. This
rule in no way discriminates against anyone -- the rule applies to everyone,
regardless of their native language.
--OKB (Bren...@aol.com) -- no relation to okblacke
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
L. Ross Raszewski
>normanpe...@sev.org (Norman Perlmutter) wrote in message
news:<3bff2970...@news.accesstoledo.com>...
>position of Stephen, but you must think about the great effort made by
>Akbarr to translate his game. Maybe you must add a rule to allow
>translations but previous released games to enter the comp. But I see
>that maybe this could brake the point about "equality of conditions"
>of the games.
Um... So what? Effort doesn't enter into it. The COmp is for
previously unreleased games.
Yesterday, I posted something about 'WHat's broken with the comp'.
You know, on reconsideration, I don't think the voting scheme is a
problem,. I think the problem is that at some point, we decided that
the comp was when games got released; we've got posts here implying
that beign barred from the competition is *the same as* being barred
from the rec.*.int-fiction community, and implying that the
competition is the sole venue for releasing a game.
L. Ross Raszewski
>
>The most natural analogy to make is perhaps that of "static" fiction.
>A translation of a novel or short story is generally not considered a
>new work. For example, when a literary prize for "best translated
>novel" (or detective story, or SF novella, or whatever) is awarded, it
>goes to the original author, not to the translator.
THis is debatable. But I don't want to be the one to do it.
>
>And how should we handle re-implementations in a different programming
>language? I suppose I wouldn't be able to enter a Quest version
>of ADVENT, for example?
But this, OTOH, hits the nail on the head. There is no fundamental
difference between "porting" a game from spanish to english, and
"translating" a game from inform to hugo to tads to adrift to
whatever. YOu can't enter ports of released games, you can't enter
translations of released games.
Hm... I was going to propose something, but a thought occurs... Hey,
Sarge, as I understand it, you're not supposed to release an updated
version of a game during the competition without explicit permission
for various exceptional circulstances... WOuld it be legitimate for an
author to simultaneous to the competition release a non-competition
version of the game in a different language?
(Of course, it might be legit for the competition to allow the game to
be submitted in two "formats", but then we run into the voting
issue.)
Jonathan Penton
the compitition. Many have played it, and have discussed it on r.g.i-f.
Others, like myself, who haven't played it are aware of it and will play it
in the future. It is not barred from appearing on the archive. While
Stephen's ruling effects Spanish works that might be translated in the
future, Shattered Memory's place as a piece of IF is pretty secure.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
"dhan" <dh...@interlap.com.ar> wrote in message
news:c3cd4abe.01112...@posting.google.com...
Joe Mason
Elise Stone <elise...@aol.com> wrote:
>While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
>consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
>Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
>whatever-you-call-it.) My first reaction was that this surely must
>break the rule about no usage of copyrighted work in your entry.
>However, the rule isn't as clear as that ("Games must not be based
>upon works currently under copyright unless permission is obtained
>from the copyright holder.")
Not to mention many of the images from SMTUC. (Well, two that I saw before I
stopped playing.)
Joe
Magnus Olsson
Steven Howard <mrb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>While we're on the subject of disqualifications, did you ever make a
>ruling about "Timeout?"
What's the problem with "Timeout"?
Sean T Barrett
>that the competition is the sole venue for releasing a game.
I got more feedback on "Trouble in Paradise", a 1999-byte
text file submitted to the PrologueComp, then I got on
"The Weapon", a 142K z5 game which was released in July
and which had, according to the SPAG New Releases Shelf,
a two-week window before any other major community games
were released (Rob Wheeler's 'First Things First', and
then more than a week after that, Adam Cadre's 'Zeta Space'
demo).
Feedback on "The Weapon", as far as I can recall, consisted
of one positive email, and then, after I mentioned it in
a thread about NPCs on raif, a review from Emily Short on
IF-review, which then (I suspect) led to a SPAG review;
and at some point somehow it got reviewed on theunderdogs.org.
I may have gotten other emails after that but I don't think
so--so one email and three reviews.
There are certainly any number of plausible explanations
for this, including the not-goodness of the game or the
fact that it included full built-in hints so it saw no
discussion on rgif; but this doesn't change the fact that,
in terms of, say, guidance for writing my next, perhaps
more successful, game, I got more useful feedback by
entering a brief text file in a comp than I did from
slaving over and releasing a comp-sized game outside of
any comp.
Mind you, I greatly appreciate the non-comp efforts to
provide reviews--e.g. SPAG and IF-review and others
that shall remain nameless. I also understand that just
saying "email feedback to the author" masks the challenge
involved in writing useful feedback--hence the community
bias towards review, so one can at least get a larger
return (more readers) for the effort of writing the
feedback.
Moreover, this is not meant as a hint that I still want
more feedback on The Weapon. I just thought it made a
fairly good comparison (The Weapon vs. Trouble in Paradise)
and the showing of Heroes (and TiP) suggests I'm not a
total moron, which suggests that the implication of the
posts you cite is, well, not exactly incorrect, as
things stand.
SeanB
Andrew Plotkin
> But I hope that Shattered Memory can enter the xyzzyawards; maybe
> non-english people that wanna to translate some games must forget
> about IF COMP and thinks only in the awards.
If Shattered Memory was first released in the calendar year 2001, it's
certainly eligible for the XYZZY awards for this year.
If the Spanish version appeared in 2000, life is harder. It would have
been eligible *last* year, for the 2000 XYZZY awards, but it would
almost certainly have been overlooked. Practically speaking, it's hard
for a non-English game to get much attention from the XYZZY voting
population.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Steven Howard
>In article <3bffcea4$1$zeoyber$mr2...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>Steven Howard <mrb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>While we're on the subject of disqualifications, did you ever make a
>>ruling about "Timeout?"
>What's the problem with "Timeout"?
It's an adaptation of the setting from the roleplaying game PARANOIA.
Unless the author had permission from West End Games, it's a pretty
flagrant violation of Rule 1.
Stephen Granade
> In <9tp5g1$r9c$1...@news.lth.se>, on 11/24/01
> at 10:03 PM, m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) said:
>
> >In article <3bffcea4$1$zeoyber$mr2...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
> >Steven Howard <mrb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>While we're on the subject of disqualifications, did you ever make a
> >>ruling about "Timeout?"
>
> >What's the problem with "Timeout"?
>
> It's an adaptation of the setting from the roleplaying game PARANOIA.
> Unless the author had permission from West End Games, it's a pretty
> flagrant violation of Rule 1.
The author contacted WEG, who in essence said, "Enh, no skin off our
nose."
Steven Howard
at 06:57 PM, Stephen Granade <sgra...@phy.duke.edu> said:
[talking about "Timeout"]
>The author contacted WEG, who in essence said, "Enh, no skin off our
>nose."
Cool.
L. Ross Raszewski
>So a game in German gets repeatedly rated "1," while a game previously
>made public in Spanish, and hence unaccessible for the majority of
>judges in the competition, gets disqualified from it.
>
>This is getting a little ridiculous.
For the love of god!
This *is* getting ridiculous. Yeah. the German game got rated a
1. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. "The Spanish game" *broke the
rules of the competion*.
Magnus Olsson
Yes.
And, Marco, you yourself are giving a very good reason for disuqalifying
it: While it was probably inaccessible to the *majority* of the voters,
there's no way to ensure that it was inaccessible to *all* of them. And
that's enough to cast suspicion on the whole voting system if it hadn't
been disqualified.
As for giving a '1' to the German game - yes, in a way it *is* ridiculous.
In other ways, it isn't: Adam has stated that he votes based on how much
he enjoyed the games; he *tried* to play the game with what tools he had
available and didn't enjoy it at all. You can call that unfair, but if you
want to disallow that kind of voting, you'll have to amend the rules.
Joachim Froholt
Marco Thorek wrote:
> So a game in German gets repeatedly rated "1," while a game previously
> made public in Spanish, and hence unaccessible for the majority of
> judges in the competition, gets disqualified from it.
>
> This is getting a little ridiculous.
Okay, what about this : Everybody in favour of non-english games being
released in the comp give a 10 to every non-english game in the next comp, to
counter the stupid 1's they will be given by others.
I'm kidding! :-)
Joachim
zoltan
> While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
> consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
> Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
> whatever-you-call-it.) My first reaction was that this surely must
> break the rule about no usage of copyrighted work in your entry.
> However, the rule isn't as clear as that ("Games must not be based
> upon works currently under copyright unless permission is obtained
> from the copyright holder.")
>
> Since we had many more games employing multimedia this year, I think
> it needs to be clearly defined as to whether music and graphics must
> be original (or at least clear of copyright infringement) in addition
> to the subject matter of the game being original.
files supporting the idea. Not everybody is a talented artist, so for
some reasons, also if you do a parody of something, you just can make
a better game with some graphics and sounds that are not done by you.
If it's a good game, I don't care if the author ripped some good
graphics or music from somewhere else and used them in a creative way,
so that the game is even better. The author doesn't make any money
with his interactive work here, so I think you should allow games that
use multimedia files from other sources.
-Zoltan
Eytan Zweig
"zoltan" <zolta...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:4f137832.01112...@posting.google.com...
This isn't about whether the material is original or not, but whether it's
copyrighted or not. The problem is that IF works that use copyrighted
material without permission are *illegal*. Not according to the comp rules -
but according to the laws in the US and every other western country. By
allowing such works, Stephan would open the comp to the possibility of
lawsuit which could be very damaging to him personally and to the community
as a whole.
Sure, it's unlikely - but why take the risk? There is enough non-copyrighted
multimedia out there for most uses, and even more copyrighted material that
can be freely distributed. Let the authors use them if they want to.
Eytan
> -Zoltan
Urbatain
> Urbatain <Urba...@lycos.es> wrote:
>
> > But I hope that Shattered Memory can enter the xyzzyawards; maybe
> > non-english people that wanna to translate some games must forget
> > about IF COMP and thinks only in the awards.
>
> If Shattered Memory was first released in the calendar year 2001, it's
> certainly eligible for the XYZZY awards for this year.
>
> If the Spanish version appeared in 2000, life is harder. It would have
> been eligible *last* year, for the 2000 XYZZY awards, but it would
> almost certainly have been overlooked. Practically speaking, it's hard
> for a non-English game to get much attention from the XYZZY voting
> population.
>
ooooooooooooh :_( ..........O
I'm so sorry about that. See, do you know how much work get the poor
Akbarr to come to all of you with that game?.
I think that you (IF english and american comunity) must change some
rules about all this point. A lot of spanish (me too) are thinking
about translate some games to present in the IF comunity, but we can't
make first the game in english only for a set of rules... We first
make it in spanish, and then consider to come here with one.
Look, in the spanish IF conmunity, if a game comes translated from
here, It will be look like a new release, beacause "it's new for us".
For example I can tell about 'A night bear's out', a lot time ago Zak
talk with his author to translate it. For luck, maybe the next year
we'll translate it and it'll enter the comp that the author wants.
So I beg to xyzzyawards organizers to allow "new releases translated
of foreign languages" to be considered like "game released this year",
beacuse, it's true that Shattered memory come to the IF comunity just
two weeks.
If there's no possibility about this, you will loose some good spanish
games. I though all of you wants to promote this games, isn't it?
(aaaagh! I need learn more english. sigh!)
Cleric Urbatain.
Urbatain
>
> The most natural analogy to make is perhaps that of "static" fiction.
> A translation of a novel or short story is generally not considered a
> new work. For example, when a literary prize for "best translated
> novel" (or detective story, or SF novella, or whatever) is awarded, it
> goes to the original author, not to the translator.
>
That isn't true in all arts. For example, think abou the film "Vanilla
Sky". It's a "traduction" of the spanish film "Abre los ojos" by
Alejandro Almenabar. The script, the plot, it's the same, and I swear
that maybe that some dialogs are the same. But Vanilla can enter the
Oscars, and maybe the director get an oscar for "make a translation or
a traduction" (really I don't know the difference ;)).
> However, when it comes to poetry, translations have more of a status
> of their own (because translating poetry means rewriting and
> reinterpreting to a much larger extent than translating prose).
>
> So I think the "only previously unreleased works" should be amended
> so that it's clear that a release in a different language does count.
>
> And how should we handle re-implementations in a different programming
> language? I suppose I wouldn't be able to enter a Quest version
> of ADVENT, for example?
HUmmm and what's about remakes?, think about "psycho" :)
Chao.
Urbatain.
Urbatain
I think that there must be a rule to avoid non-english games in the IF
competition. If they wanna enter, it's better translate the game than
send it in the original language. We got a spanish if comp, so why
they don't made their own comps for each country? If there's no enough
people to run one... man, just keep on english domain.
I think...
Cleric Urbatain.
Marnie Parker
>From: Elise Stone elise...@aol.com
>Date: 11/24/2001 5:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
>While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
>consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
>Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
>whatever-you-call-it.)
Those were midi replays of works, not the actual copyrighted works themselves.
I view it as someone playing a guitar with sheet music vs. the original
recording of the music. I am totally unable to create original music. Also the
help screen specifically said that the music came from the Internet, so I did
not pretend it was original.
And I found those midis and midi replays of all kinds of famous music all over
the Internet. So I suggest you take that issue up with the midi communities
that produce them. Not me. I do know they did not come from "illegal sites" and
no one is slapping them with copyright suits. There are tons and tons of midis
out there.
However, if someone feels it is necessary to disqualify Carma for that reason,
I can live with it. Since I am not a big annual comp lover anyway. Also, I
would not be the only one disqualified (Stiffy Makane would have to be
disqualified too, along with at least one other). And if people insist on
original music in any multimedia IF games, there won't be much music ever,
period.
Doe The one exception was the short Bad Boy clip, which seemed to have been
released by the band itself.
doea...@aol.com
IF http://members.aol.com/doepage/intfict.htm
(An Iffy Theory | Glulx/Glk for Duncies | unglklib | Inform Primer)
IF Art Gallery http://members.aol.com/iffyart/
IF Review Conspiracy http://www.plover.net/~textfire/conspiracy/
Marnie Parker
>Date: 11/25/2001 8:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Doe The one exception was the short Bad Boy clip, which seemed to have been
>released by the band itself.
>
That was not clear, by one exception, I meant it was not a midi replay as far
as I know. But since I found it in an area (of AOL) that bans the distribution
of original recordings, I have to assume it was released by the band itself.
Doe :-) Actually, for all I know, it was a midi replay to which someone added
singing. Note: I did give this some thought ahead of time.
Branko Collin
GMT:
>>Subject: Re: Shattered Memory Disqualification
>>From: Elise Stone elise...@aol.com
>>Date: 11/24/2001 5:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
>>While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
>>consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
>>Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
>>whatever-you-call-it.)
>
>Those were midi replays of works, not the actual copyrighted works themselves.
In the eyes of copyright law, there's no difference. (Well, there is,
one would be the original work and the other the derived work, but
both fall within the same copyright).
>I view it as someone playing a guitar with sheet music vs. the original
>recording of the music.
More like someone giving a concert with sheet music vs. the original
recording of the music.
>And I found those midis and midi replays of all kinds of famous music all over
>the Internet. So I suggest you take that issue up with the midi communities
>that produce them. Not me. I do know they did not come from "illegal sites" and
>no one is slapping them with copyright suits. There are tons and tons of midis
>out there.
The law says nothing about pointing fingers at others who have
breached the law also.
>And if people insist on
>original music in any multimedia IF games, there won't be much music ever,
>period.
The OP was not talking about originality, but about copyright. So far,
we all have to assume that you acquired licenses for every bit you
used in your game.
>Doe The one exception was the short Bad Boy clip, which seemed to have been
>released by the band itself.
For unlimited distribution?
--
branko collin
col...@xs4all.nl
Marnie Parker
>Date: 11/25/2001 9:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
>The OP was not talking about originality, but about copyright. So far,
>we all have to assume that you acquired licenses for every bit you
>used in your game.
Well, go ahead and disqualify me and everyone else who did the same thing.
Because, even though I do not feel it is a big issue, I still would not feel
good if I am the only one disqualified.
<shrug>
I am not releasing Carma for commercial purposes. I am not making money on it.
So I seriously doubt anyone will sue me. Ergo, I am not worried about it.
Doe :-) It's a *hobby* of mine writing IF, that's all. Sometimes I think people
take all of this way, way too seriously.
Magnus Olsson
Urbatain <Urba...@lycos.es> wrote:
>m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote in message news:<9tnr17$dfj$1...@news.lth.se>...
>
>>
>> The most natural analogy to make is perhaps that of "static" fiction.
>> A translation of a novel or short story is generally not considered a
>> new work. For example, when a literary prize for "best translated
>> novel" (or detective story, or SF novella, or whatever) is awarded, it
>> goes to the original author, not to the translator.
>>
>
>That isn't true in all arts. For example, think abou the film "Vanilla
>Sky". It's a "traduction" of the spanish film "Abre los ojos" by
>Alejandro Almenabar. The script, the plot, it's the same, and I swear
>that maybe that some dialogs are the same. But Vanilla can enter the
>Oscars, and maybe the director get an oscar for "make a translation or
>a traduction" (really I don't know the difference ;)).
I haven't seen either film, but wouldn't "Vanilla Sky" be a re-make
rather than a translation?
Anyway, the only thing this shows is that it's not self-evident that
whether the Spanish original of "Shattered Memory" should count as
prior publication. It's up to Stephen to decide, and I agree with and
support his decision, but it was not self-evident. The author
misunderstood the rule; that's bad luck.
So I think it's a good thing that the rules will be amended to spell
this out explicitly next year.
>HUmmm and what's about remakes?, think about "psycho" :)
An interesting question: what would a remake of an IF work be like?
I've been working on and off for several years (mostly off, and it's
unlikely if the project will ever be completed) on an Inform remake
of my old Pascal game "Dunjin". It will feature not only a better parser,
but revised text, reworked puzzles and improved NPC interaction. Will
this make it a new game? I've no idea, to be honest.
Eytan Zweig
"Marnie Parker" <doea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011125121351...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Shattered Memory Disqualification
> >From: col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin)
> >Date: 11/25/2001 9:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >The OP was not talking about originality, but about copyright. So far,
> >we all have to assume that you acquired licenses for every bit you
> >used in your game.
>
> Well, go ahead and disqualify me and everyone else who did the same thing.
> Because, even though I do not feel it is a big issue, I still would not
feel
> good if I am the only one disqualified.
>
> <shrug>
>
Well, personally, I believe strongly in the need for a rule that says all
copyrighted material is prohibited from the competition. I also believe that
since such a rule was not in effect when CARMA was written and entered into
the competition, it should not be disqualified - the rule should take effect
from next year, when everyone should know in advance that it's there.
> I am not releasing Carma for commercial purposes. I am not making money on
it.
> So I seriously doubt anyone will sue me. Ergo, I am not worried about it.
Don't count on it - I've been involved (in a minor role) in a case when
someone who supposed exactly that had a very nasty surprise.
> Doe :-) It's a *hobby* of mine writing IF, that's all. Sometimes I think
people
> take all of this way, way too seriously.
There is a difference between writing a piece of IF on your own which
violates copyright and submitting one in the competition. If you write it
outside of the competition, that's your responsibility - and you're right in
that it shouldn't matter (though, again, due to the narrow-mindedness of
certain corporate lawyers that may not be the case). And, the worst that can
happen in that case is that you'll be forced to retract the game. But, if
you submit it into a competition, and it can be proven that whoever runs the
competition knows that there was a copyright problem and that he still
accepted it, you run the risk of bringing legal action against the entire
competition, and inadvertently causing major damage to the IF community as a
whole.
I'm writng from the perspecitve of someone once bitten, twice shy - I may
very well be over-reacting. But I've seen what could happen, and it is not
nice.
Eytan
Magnus Olsson
Marnie Parker <doea...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Shattered Memory Disqualification
>>From: Elise Stone elise...@aol.com
>>Date: 11/24/2001 5:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
>>While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
>>consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
>>Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
>>whatever-you-call-it.)
>
>Those were midi replays of works, not the actual copyrighted works themselves.
>I view it as someone playing a guitar with sheet music vs. the original
>recording of the music.
I don't know about US copyright law, but in Sweden, any public performance
of copyrighted sheet music requires the composer's permission (which will
cost you). So it's not just a particular recording of a song, but the song
itself, that falls under copyright.
>I am totally unable to create original music.
This is a big problem with game soundtracks. I suppose rather few IF
authors have the skills to write their own music. There's a similar
problem with pictures, but I think both that there are more IF authors
who know how to draw than who can compose music, and that it's easier
to find an artist to collaborate with than to find a composer. But I might
be wrong.
I really think it's a great pity that multimedia IF should run into
these problems, just as the genre is getting started. But I don't
think the Competition can afford being slapped with lawsuits, either.
David Thornley
>of foreign languages" to be considered like "game released this year",
>beacuse, it's true that Shattered memory come to the IF comunity just
>two weeks.
>
basically going to be passed over for the XYZZYs, and if the requirement
is that the translation has to come out in the same year, we're going
to miss some good stuff. Restricting comp entries is one thing (and
Triune would have benefitted from an earlier release in any language,
apparently - the author changed the ending significantly as a result
of feedback), but I'd really like to see translations eligible for
the XYZZYs the year they're translated.
>(aaaagh! I need learn more english. sigh!)
>
It wasn't grammatical, but I understood everything clearly. Good
enough.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Jonathan Penton
> >From: col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin)
> >Date: 11/25/2001 9:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >The OP was not talking about originality, but about copyright. So far,
> >we all have to assume that you acquired licenses for every bit you
> >used in your game.
>
> Well, go ahead and disqualify me and everyone else who did the same thing.
> Because, even though I do not feel it is a big issue, I still would not
feel
> good if I am the only one disqualified.
>
> <shrug>
>
> I am not releasing Carma for commercial purposes. I am not making money on
it.
> So I seriously doubt anyone will sue me. Ergo, I am not worried about it.
>
> Doe :-) It's a *hobby* of mine writing IF, that's all. Sometimes I think
people
> take all of this way, way too seriously.
Yes, a hobby, as it should be. And lots of people do commit little
victimless crimes in their hobbies; stealing cable, for instance. It's not
going to stop me from playing Carma, and I'd hope it would never be removed
from the Archive.
But if I were Stephen, I sure wouldn't want to leave myself open to lawsuits
by allowing people to submit copyrighted works to the Comp. Hell, that's why
he made a rule about it.
Jonathan Penton
news:WtaM7.24448$H7.34...@ruti.visi.com...
> In article <d19bc434.01112...@posting.google.com>,
> Urbatain <Urba...@lycos.es> wrote:
> >
> >So I beg to xyzzyawards organizers to allow "new releases translated
> >of foreign languages" to be considered like "game released this year",
> >beacuse, it's true that Shattered memory come to the IF comunity just
> >two weeks.
> >
> I would strongly urge that also. Games that are not in English are
> basically going to be passed over for the XYZZYs, and if the requirement
> is that the translation has to come out in the same year, we're going
> to miss some good stuff. Restricting comp entries is one thing (and
> Triune would have benefitted from an earlier release in any language,
> apparently - the author changed the ending significantly as a result
> of feedback), but I'd really like to see translations eligible for
> the XYZZYs the year they're translated.
I concur.
Scott Starkey
> This isn't about whether the material is original or not, but whether it's
> copyrighted or not. The problem is that IF works that use copyrighted
> material without permission are *illegal*. Not according to the comp
rules -
> but according to the laws in the US and every other western country. By
> allowing such works, Stephan would open the comp to the possibility of
> lawsuit which could be very damaging to him personally and to the
community
> as a whole.
Yes, the stuff in Carma (and Stiffy) was copyrighted, but there is a
provision of copyright law that allows for "Fair Use." Little stuff,
non-commercial, especially stuff of an artistic nature like we're doing, is
allowed a certain amount of Fair Use.
There's a long-standing tradition of using literary quotes in games. (Heck,
I did it in my game.) I'm sure few people would complain that an attributed
quote would violate copyright. A soundbyte from a spaghetti western
shouldn't breach copyright, too. I don't think we want to get too paranoid
and take away our Fair Use.
--Scott S.
Mike Duncan
There's something odd there.
However, since many new comps have arrived lately, either by design or
spontaneous combustion, at least one should accept games that are
translated into English but have been released previously overseas.
Mike Duncan
http://www.boston.quik.com/mduncan/
Marnie Parker
>Date: 11/25/2001 8:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
>And I found those midis and midi replays of all kinds of famous music all
>over
>the Internet. So I suggest you take that issue up with the midi communities
>that produce them. Not me.
For clarification purposes, I meant discuss with them how they can do that, not
me. I presume they have some legal standing that allows them to midi replay a
famous song. Since they are so many midis of them, widely distributed over the
Net. I highly suspect that it is a grey area.
I feel I was as careful and honest as I could be, whatever anyone decides re
the comp itself. So my conscience is clear. Which is the only important thing,
really.
Taking too seriously -- I meant IF, the comp and everything. Everyone says
mixing competition and creativity is a good thing as regards the annual comp
-- I've always wondered about that and have tended to disagree. Why else do we
always have these intense discussions and/or flame wars after every single
comp?
Unless it also stirs up a lot of negative feelings? A lot.
Oh, well. Live and learn. I won't enter again, I shouldn't have this time,
because of my long-time suspicion that I would not like it. Competition and
creativity *do not* mix for me, I was right about that. It detracts from me
enjoying mine and others' creativity.
And before anyone throws the IF Art Show at me, I'll just say I am sneaky about
that.
Discuss away.
Doe :-) No, I am not removing the music from Carma in any future releases, the
parodies would not be as good without it.
Jonathan Penton
news:9trd0g$t5o$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
"Fair Use" was originally intended for educational and review purposes. It
has been expanded to cover parody (I haven't played Stiffy, but I suspect
it's covered under this definition of Fair Use). Usually, literary
quotations represent works that have fallen out of copyright, rather than an
appeal to Fair Use, which is rather tenuous protection. It really doesn't
offer much coverage, outside of parodies, for entertainment vehicles. The
copyrighted MIDIs that are used to enhance so many web sites are not covered
by fair use, and are definately illegal (although they are almost never shut
down).
http://www.benedict.com/info/fairUse/fairUse.asp offers excellent
information on this.
Andrew Plotkin
> I concur.
I'm a little mixed, but my gut feeling is that this would be a good
thing overall. The XYZZY awards have a "look back over the past year,
decide what you liked" mode. A game which has been available for two
or three years in a non-English language doesn't really have an unfair
advantage. The author might have improved or re-written parts of his
game for the English version, but *any* game author can improve or
re-write parts of his game and still have the final version be
considered for the XYZZYs.
Obviously, the final decision is with the XYZZY awards organizer.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Magnus Olsson
Scott Starkey <sco...@postmark.net> wrote:
>
>> This isn't about whether the material is original or not, but whether it's
>> copyrighted or not. The problem is that IF works that use copyrighted
>> material without permission are *illegal*. Not according to the comp
>rules -
>> but according to the laws in the US and every other western country. By
>> allowing such works, Stephan would open the comp to the possibility of
>> lawsuit which could be very damaging to him personally and to the
>community
>> as a whole.
>
>Yes, the stuff in Carma (and Stiffy) was copyrighted, but there is a
>provision of copyright law that allows for "Fair Use."
That's true, but...
>There's a long-standing tradition of using literary quotes in games. (Heck,
>I did it in my game.) I'm sure few people would complain that an attributed
>quote would violate copyright. A soundbyte from a spaghetti western
>shouldn't breach copyright, too. I don't think we want to get too paranoid
>and take away our Fair Use.
But the courts seem to take a much more limited view of fair use than
you do. People have been sued for quoting a few lines from a pop song.
The only area that seems reasonably safe is fair use for critical purposes,
i.e. a review may quote the work reviewed.
If you're sued, you can always claim fair use, but it's up to the court
to decide if your use is indeed fair.
Are you willing to take that chance? Or to pay a lawyer just to be allowed
the chance?
Magnus Olsson
Marnie Parker <doea...@aol.com> wrote:
>Taking too seriously -- I meant IF, the comp and everything. Everyone says
>mixing competition and creativity is a good thing as regards the annual comp
>-- I've always wondered about that and have tended to disagree. Why else do we
>always have these intense discussions and/or flame wars after every single
>comp?
>Unless it also stirs up a lot of negative feelings? A lot.
That's one of the big disadvantages with holding competitions. It does
stir up a lot of negative feelings.
Sigh.
Andrew Plotkin
>>Subject: Re: Shattered Memory Disqualification
>>From: doea...@aol.com (Marnie Parker)
>>Date: 11/25/2001 8:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id:
>>And I found those midis and midi replays of all kinds of famous
>>music all over the Internet. So I suggest you take that issue up
>>with the midi communities that produce them. Not me.
> For clarification purposes, I meant discuss with them how they can do that, not
> me. I presume they have some legal standing that allows them to midi replay a
> famous song.
I don't. I presume that there are simply a whole lot of people who
don't care that they're violating the law.
I am *very* uncomfortable with the attitude that the IF community can
ignore copyright because it's a hobby, because we're not making money,
because nobody will notice. These are all ways of saying that IF
doesn't count.
I like to think that IF counts -- that I'm doing the same work as
writers, poets, composers. In the writing world -- whether you're
writing a major hardback release for a big-time publisher, or a story
for some tiny little literary journal somewhere -- stealing words
without permission is considered a bad thing.
Does that mean that it's hard to produce a multimedia work? Yes.
Writing words is hard, doing art is hard, writing music is hard.
Recording music is a pain. But it's nonsensical to say that it
"ought to" be easier to create a multimedia work, and therefore
shortcuts are justified. That's not an argument, it's an excuse.
Jonathan Penton
For better or for worse, a blind eye is often turned to "freeware" copyright
violations, whether the freeware is software, a micro-literary journal or a
literary web site. The most obvious and shining example is fan fiction.
Nintendo is certainly aware that a vast amount of non-licensed Pikachu
fiction is available in print and on the web. They are furthermore aware
that much of this fiction is pornographic, yet they make no attempt to shut
any of it down. Fan fic authors often dream of writing for the show they
emulate, and although that might be unlikely for other reasons, I don't
think copyright issues are going to stand in their way.
With little effort, you could cruise through literary web sites and find a
hundred pages in which a person's works are introduced with a few lines from
a pop song, or even an entire Sylvia Plath poem. The practice is less
common, but does happen, in print literary journals.
All of these things are illegal. And, IMO, illegal things shouldn't be
allowed in the comp. My point is not that these things are good practice
(they aren't), but that their inclusion in IF does not trivialize IF,
compared to the better-established art forms.
Adam Biltcliffe
Andrew Plotkin:
> The author might have improved or re-written parts of his
> game for the English version, but *any* game author can improve or
> re-write parts of his game and still have the final version be
> considered for the XYZZYs.
Not that I'm against allowing translated games to be nominated for the
xyzzies in the year the translated version comes out, but is what you
said above strictly true? If I release a game in 2001 and then release a
new version (in the same language) in 2002, is the new version eligible
for the 2002 xyzzy awards?
jw
Papillon
>This is a big problem with game soundtracks. I suppose rather few IF
>authors have the skills to write their own music. There's a similar
>problem with pictures, but I think both that there are more IF authors
>who know how to draw than who can compose music, and that it's easier
>to find an artist to collaborate with than to find a composer. But I might
>be wrong.
... not to mention that it's easier to put an author-created work of art
into handy computer format than it is to import music. Scanners and graphics
programs are easier to come by than sound kit. I've tried sticking stuff
I've composed into games, but after I've run it through the piddly
midi-composition stuff I've got it always comes out pretty crappy.
So, I was a music major in college, and I can draw a little, but I'd still
rather grab stuff if at all possible because it just takes too much time! :)
(Well, and I paid for an arttoday membership just for such reasons. Time.)
Xander
I don't think that's what he meant. As I understand him, he says
that for both the xyzzies and the comp, the
formerly-published-in-not-English game can be modified in response
to player feedback. For the comp, this is an unfair advantage
because all other games have only had feedback from a restricted
circle of beta testers. For the xyzzies, however, English-only
games can also be modified after their first release and have only
their latest version considered. That the non-English game may
have been published in an earlier year and therefore the author
had more time to react is probably offset by the fact that the
English-speaking pool of players is the largest by far, so the
English game would likely have received as much or more feedback.
(Do they, o authors?)
Andrew Plotkin
No. I was unclear -- I meant that you can release a bug-fix version
(or several) in 2001.
That's still a limit on XYZZY eligibility. And if we allow an English
translation to be eligible in the year of its translation, that *does*
allow an advantage to games that come out first in non-English
languages. But it's a small advantage, and I think it's not a big
deal.
Mike Duncan
>
>>I am totally unable to create original music.
>
>This is a big problem with game soundtracks. I suppose rather few IF
>authors have the skills to write their own music. There's a similar
>problem with pictures, but I think both that there are more IF authors
>who know how to draw than who can compose music, and that it's easier
>to find an artist to collaborate with than to find a composer. But I might
>be wrong.
>
Barring time, and with the understanding that I prefer MIDI for ease
of use (and somehow it doesn't make sense to download WAV or MP3 files
with a game that probably doesn't break 400k)...
...I'm willing to contribute original music to other people's IF
games, though I'm /highly/ unlikely to write twenty things again for
one game, even if it's mine. So there. Composer mercenary.
I'm not sure how that would work, actually - I suppose I'd have to
either play the game while it's being tested, or just go on a general
description of mood earlier on.
Mike Duncan
http://www.boston.quik.com/mduncan/
Andrew Plotkin
> For better or for worse, a blind eye is often turned to "freeware" copyright
> violations, whether the freeware is software, a micro-literary journal or a
> literary web site.
That's true.
> The most obvious and shining example is fan fiction.
> [...long snip, also mentioned web journals, etc]
> My point is not that these things are good practice
> (they aren't), but that their inclusion in IF does not trivialize IF,
> compared to the better-established art forms.
I would say that it *does* trivialize the realm of fan fiction. (Not
only by direct implication, but by forcing fanfic to avoid the "real"
publishing world -- and therefore preventing the process of editing,
publishing, and distribution which most readers rely on to avoid huge
piles of slush.)
Fanfic is not all of the world of writing, but if the majority of
multimedia IF ran under the same "under the radar" rules as fanfic, I
think it would affect *all* of IF... indirectly.
OKB -- not okblacke
>I am *very* uncomfortable with the attitude that the IF community can
>ignore copyright because it's a hobby, because we're not making money,
>because nobody will notice. These are all ways of saying that IF
>doesn't count.
If saying IF didn't count would free us from all fear of lawsuits and
legal balderdash, I'd say it in a minute, and then go on knowing it does count.
Tell the legal eagles what they want to hear, tell them we're only poor humble
IF authors, and then go back to business as usual when they stop looking.
Of course, saying that won't free us from all such fear, and personally I
have issues with copyright law in general, but there's been enough talk about
that.
--OKB (Bren...@aol.com) -- no relation to okblacke
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
Alan DeNiro
A quote from the Chicago Manual of Style speaks to this:
A word of practical caution: if a use appears to be fair, the author
should probably NOT ask permission. The right of fair use is a
valuable one to scholarship [or fiction, or IF, or...], and it should
not be allowed to decay through the failure of scholars to employ it
boldly. Furthermore, excessive caution can be dangerous if the
copyright owner proves uncooperative. Far from establishing good faith
and protecting the author from suit or unreasonable demands, a
permission request may have just the opposite effect. The act of
seeking permission indicates that the author feels permission is
needed, and the tacit admission may be damaging to the author's
defense.
---
Also, although attributation of sources doesn't technically cover a
person from copyright infringement, it certainly adds to the
good-faith effort, too.
Alan
Jonathan Penton
news:254e3122.0111...@posting.google.com...
All this is sound advice, but it doesn't change the fact that Scott (like
many) seems to misunderstand Fair Use. Fair Use was never intended to
protect the rights of non-commercial artistic stuff. It protects educational
purposes and reviews, and later, parody.
Asking for permission to do something covered by Fair Use is unwise, but
failing to ask permission for something NOT covered by Fair Use is illegal.
LizM7
> In article <d19bc434.01112...@posting.google.com>,
> Urbatain <Urba...@lycos.es> wrote:
> >m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote in message news:<9tnr17$dfj$1...@news.lth.se>...
> >HUmmm and what's about remakes?, think about "psycho" :)
>
> An interesting question: what would a remake of an IF work be like?
> I've been working on and off for several years (mostly off, and it's
> unlikely if the project will ever be completed) on an Inform remake
> of my old Pascal game "Dunjin". It will feature not only a better parser,
> but revised text, reworked puzzles and improved NPC interaction. Will
> this make it a new game? I've no idea, to be honest.
Haven't we already *had* remakes? Early IF essencially revolved
around remakes of Adventure / Colossal Cave, all the way up through
Zork.
Which raises the question: If someone were to stumbled upon the
original, original version of Adventure / Colossal Cave and port it to
Inform or TADS, could they then submit it to the Comp?
After all, it wouldn't be as if they had an advantage over the others:
the game would be the exact same one released originally - there's no
player feedback.
Or, as another form of remake, take the MiSTing of Detective.
- Liz
Matthew Russotto
>
>But the courts seem to take a much more limited view of fair use than
>you do. People have been sued for quoting a few lines from a pop song.
>The only area that seems reasonably safe is fair use for critical purposes,
>i.e. a review may quote the work reviewed.
>
>If you're sued, you can always claim fair use, but it's up to the court
>to decide if your use is indeed fair.
>
>Are you willing to take that chance? Or to pay a lawyer just to be allowed
>the chance?
To adhere to the AP/MPAA/RIAA version of copyright is to remain silent.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
=====
Get Caught Reading, Go To Jail!
A message from the Association of American Publishers
Free Dmitry Sklyarov! DMCA delenda est!
http://www.freedmitry.org
Billy Bissette
says...
> On 24 Nov 2001 09:59:03 GMT, Magnus Olsson <m...@df.lth.se> wrote:
> >And how should we handle re-implementations in a different programming
> >language? I suppose I wouldn't be able to enter a Quest version
> >of ADVENT, for example?
>
> But this, OTOH, hits the nail on the head. There is no fundamental
> difference between "porting" a game from spanish to english, and
> "translating" a game from inform to hugo to tads to adrift to
> whatever. YOu can't enter ports of released games, you can't enter
> translations of released games.
There is a difference.
Porting a game between different programming languages is an effort
in programming. Its not as much that ADVENT is a good Quest game, its
whether the effort of recoding ADVENT into Quest went well.
Translating from Spanish to English is somewhat different. You change
the text blocks, but not really reprogram the code aspects. You don't
even redesign the text structure (while moving from one program language
to another may very well require you change even the code structure).
Poetry is different in that you are changing the structure as well as
the individual words.
Alan DeNiro
Agreed. The above statement deals only with fair use.
Where do epigraphs fall, then? Even some novels from major publishing
houses that carry epigraphs at the beginning of the book or a chapter
don't have any indication that permissions were cleared.
Magnus Olsson
LizM7 <hsel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote in message
>news:<9tra4f$d8b$1...@news.lth.se>...
>> In article <d19bc434.01112...@posting.google.com>,
>> Urbatain <Urba...@lycos.es> wrote:
>> >m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote in message
>news:<9tnr17$dfj$1...@news.lth.se>...
>[snip]
>> >HUmmm and what's about remakes?, think about "psycho" :)
>>
>> An interesting question: what would a remake of an IF work be like?
>> I've been working on and off for several years (mostly off, and it's
>> unlikely if the project will ever be completed) on an Inform remake
>> of my old Pascal game "Dunjin". It will feature not only a better parser,
>> but revised text, reworked puzzles and improved NPC interaction. Will
>> this make it a new game? I've no idea, to be honest.
>
>Haven't we already *had* remakes? Early IF essencially revolved
>around remakes of Adventure / Colossal Cave, all the way up through
>Zork.
I'm talking about remakes the way that Hollywood remakes foreign films,
not of works in a genre, so Zork would definitely not be a remake of
ADVENT, but just a somewhat derivative genre work.
The various versions of Adventure are a more interesting case. In
particular, I think Dave Baggett's "Colossal Cave Revisited" could be
considered a remake rather than a port, but in that case it's a very
faithful remake.
Oh. It's really staring me in the face: The Zork trilogy is a remake
of mainframe Zork/Dungeon.
Joachim Froholt
Urbatain wrote:
> Joachim Froholt <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message news:<3C00CCD2...@c2i.net>...
> > Marco Thorek wrote:
> >
> > > So a game in German gets repeatedly rated "1," while a game previously
> > > made public in Spanish, and hence unaccessible for the majority of
> > > judges in the competition, gets disqualified from it.
> > >
> > > This is getting a little ridiculous.
> >
> > Okay, what about this : Everybody in favour of non-english games being
> > released in the comp give a 10 to every non-english game in the next comp, to
> > counter the stupid 1's they will be given by others.
> >
>
> I think that there must be a rule to avoid non-english games in the IF
> competition. If they wanna enter, it's better translate the game than
> send it in the original language. We got a spanish if comp, so why
> they don't made their own comps for each country? If there's no enough
> people to run one... man, just keep on english domain.
I see no difference between different languages and, for instance, different IF authoring
systems. I can't play all the games in the comp anyway, so why should I care whether the
reason I can't play a game is that it's mac-only or that it's in finnish?
As for holding different comps for different languages - well, it's obviously an idea that
works for the spanish IF community, but I seriously doubt it would work equally well in
other countries.
I think people should be able to submit whatever they want to the main comp, as long as
they don't break any rules doing it (and I think that a rule against non-english games is a
Bad Idea). If they choose to release their games outside the comp, then that's even better
because although the feedback on non-comp games may not be the best, they're certainly just
as (if not more) welcome.
(btw, I do support the disqualification of Shattered Memory, though ofcourse I think it was
sad that it had to happen. But hey, let's look at the bright side of things: any publicity
is good publicity :-)
Joachim
Magnus Olsson
Joachim Froholt <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote:
>I see no difference between different languages and, for instance,
>different IF authoring
>systems. I can't play all the games in the comp anyway, so why should I
>care whether the
>reason I can't play a game is that it's mac-only or that it's in finnish?
Well, to start with it's easier to get/borrow/steal a Mac (or download
a Mac emulator) than to learn Finnish.
But I think that the important thing here is not to keep the pool
of entries homogeneous, but to keep the judges homogeneous in some
sense. Not that all judges should think the same, of course (because
then we'd only need one judge) but it would be deeply unfortunate
if the judges consisted of disjoint subsets with different cultures
and radically different preferences.
This would be risk if there were many, say, FInnish entries and many
Finnish judges. We may end up with a situation like the Eurovision
song contest (where each country tends to vote on songs from countries
with similar languages and cultures): Finns giving high scores to
Finnish games and low scores to English ones, with everybody else
not even voting on the Finnish entries.
Theoretically we could of course get similar divisions between, say,
Mac users and PC users, but (religious wars aside) I think the risk
is low.
But, anyway, I don't think we need to add new rules until something
like this happens. So I think we should allow non-English entries
next year as well; if it doesn't work out, we might have to disallow
them.
Magnus Olsson
>In article <3C0237E5...@c2i.net>,
>Joachim Froholt <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote:
>>I see no difference between different languages and, for instance,
>>different IF authoring
>>systems. I can't play all the games in the comp anyway, so why should I
>>care whether the
>>reason I can't play a game is that it's mac-only or that it's in finnish?
>
>But I think that the important thing here is not to keep the pool
>of entries homogeneous, but to keep the judges homogeneous in some
>sense. Not that all judges should think the same, of course (because
>then we'd only need one judge) but it would be deeply unfortunate
>if the judges consisted of disjoint subsets with different cultures
>and radically different preferences.
>
>This would be risk if there were many, say, FInnish entries and many
>Finnish judges. We may end up with a situation like the Eurovision
>song contest (where each country tends to vote on songs from countries
>with similar languages and cultures): Finns giving high scores to
>Finnish games and low scores to English ones, with everybody else
>not even voting on the Finnish entries.
>
>Theoretically we could of course get similar divisions between, say,
>Mac users and PC users, but (religious wars aside) I think the risk
>is low.
Oops, forgot one important point:
In general, the difference between English-language IF for different
platforms is very small. A Mac-only game doesn't play radically
different from a PC-only game. And it's similar for the judges: Mac
owners aren't likely to have significantly different taste in IF than
PC owners (they may, of course, differ in other aspects :-) ).
But IF from different cultures is likely to be different.
*Of course* this means that it would be a good thing to see more
foreign-language IF on the Archive, and more translations of
foreign-language IF as well.
But there may be problems if games in different languages are
entered in the same competition.
Stephen Granade
what in these discussions. For example:
zolta...@yahoo.de (zoltan) writes:
> Stephen Granade wrote:
> > While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
> > consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
> > Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
> > whatever-you-call-it.)
The only problem is, I wrote none of that.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade
sgra...@phy.duke.edu
Duke University, Physics Dept
OKB -- not okblacke
>*Of course* this means that it would be a good thing to see more
>foreign-language IF on the Archive, and more translations of
>foreign-language IF as well.
>
>But there may be problems if games in different languages are
>entered in the same competition.
I think the former might alleviate the latter. If foreign-language games
(or, as you say, games translated from other languages which still retain a
unique cultural perspective) were more common, I imagine we'd see less of an
"us-vs.-them" mentality.
Adam Thornton
>provision of copyright law that allows for "Fair Use." Little stuff,
>non-commercial, especially stuff of an artistic nature like we're doing, is
>allowed a certain amount of Fair Use.
Stiffy is also a work of parody, which has its own clause of copyright
exemptions. And I *did* get permission from Adam Thrasher, since Space
Moose was used non-parodically (um, I guess), although the Moose himself
is a highly parodic fellow.
Adam
Adam Thornton
Mike Duncan <mdu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Barring time, and with the understanding that I prefer MIDI for ease
>of use (and somehow it doesn't make sense to download WAV or MP3 files
>with a game that probably doesn't break 400k)...
This spins away a bit from the original thread, but:
I'd really like to see MIDI blessed in Blorb files as well.
Yes, I know we have MODs, but there's no really usable Midi to Mod
converter I was ever able to find, and much more of the music I want to
use is findable as MIDI. Plus, I can kinda-sorta fight my way through
Cakewalk, but not through MOD creators, although that's a time and
training issue.
I don't care that the player have the precise experience I did; it is
perfectly acceptable to me to say, "I would like a piano playing *this*
score, a trumpet playing *this*, and a snare drum doing *that*" and let
the player's General Midi patches worry about the actual rendering. The
whole MOD looping and sampling thing scares me; it's a lot more fiddling
with electronica than the composing (which is admittedly crappy and
limited) I can do if I say, "put the melody on an alto sax here, and
back it with the following chords from a bass guitar."
Adam
Adam Thornton
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Does that mean that it's hard to produce a multimedia work? Yes.
>Writing words is hard, doing art is hard, writing music is hard.
Then please consider this a plea to add MIDI to Blorb.
Composing music is hard. Making me do it in MOD format is even harder.
Adam
Jonathan Penton
Well, a large number of them have probably fallen out of copyright. And some
are credited, either in the very front or very back of the book. Beyond
that, I'm not sure. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of winking and
nudging, especially when works from the same (or related) publishing house
are quoted.
scrambled Digby McWiggle
>>> copyrighted or not. The problem is that IF works that use copyrighted
>>> material without permission are *illegal*.
I would just like to urge people not to underestimate the power and
peevishness of copyright-holders. Though I do sympathise with authors who
would like to include multimedia in their games but don't feel qualified to
produce it themselves, I too have had very close calls with copyright lawyers,
over material which is even more in the "grey area" than some of the stuff
that has appeared in recent IF games [1].
The real problem as I see it is that we are a focused community. If some large
and affluent organisation decided it wanted IF exterminated, it could
essentially do it. All they'd have to do is send a few threatening letters to
a few key web hosts and poof - we'd be shut down overnight *whether or not we
were doing anything wrong*!
Believe me, I've seen it. Don't mess with copyright law - the winner is always
whoever has the biggest bank account, and that is never you.
The contrast with the midi community is that midis are spread far and wide
over the entire internet. Shutting that down would be nigh-on impossible. By
comparison, the IF community is a sitting duck.
So what's the answer? The obvious one is COLLABORATION. I think we'd be
surprised at the number of IFers who have multi-media skills that they'd
happily contribute to other's games. Maybe someone could maintain a register,
something like the beta-testers list, where artists and composers could offer
their skills. You could also make enquiries in other relevant newsgroups. It's
possible - it's not as easy as downloading something from the internet, but
it's worth it not to be looking down the barrel of a gun held by 500 ruthless
copyright lawyers.
Digby
[1] The material was guitar transcriptions, made by ear, from recordings.
Dennis G. Jerz
> But the courts seem to take a much more limited view of fair use than
> you do. People have been sued for quoting a few lines from a pop song.
> The only area that seems reasonably safe is fair use for critical
purposes,
> i.e. a review may quote the work reviewed.
FWIW, in my forthcoming book, I quote a grand total of seven words from a
William Carlos Williams poem. I wrote to the publisher, and got permission
to use those lines in the American market for free (for the first 50,000
copies, which is probably more than will be printed). No problem.
In another section of my book, I quoted from a scene in _A Streetcar Named
Desire_, in which Blanche Dubois sings a few lines from the song "Paper
Moon." Although I quoted hundreds of words from _Streetcar_, and didn't
have to get permission on account of fair use laws, the song lyrics
(credited in the published versions of _Streetcar_, and often credited in
the programs handed out at performances) were too hot an issue for my
publishser to touch. I ended up dropping them.
--
Dennis G. Jerz, Ph.D.; (715)836-2431
Dept. of English; U Wisc.-Eau Claire
419 Hibbard, Eau Claire, WI 54702
------------------------------------
Literacy Weblog: www.uwec.edu/jerzdg
Magnus Olsson
scrambled) (Digby McWiggle <digby_m...@liamtoh.moc> wrote:
>>>> This isn't about whether the material is original or not, but whether it's
>>>> copyrighted or not. The problem is that IF works that use copyrighted
>>>> material without permission are *illegal*.
>
>I would just like to urge people not to underestimate the power and
>peevishness of copyright-holders.
Indeed.
Most copyright holders will not go after small fry like shareware
authors. But some have a history of doing so (Paramount in the case of
Star Trek fansites, e.g.), and others may follow their example.
It's even worse when for example a character's name is trademarked -
in that case, the trademark owner may be *forced* to sue, in order
not to lose their trademark.
>If some large
>and affluent organisation decided it wanted IF exterminated, it could
>essentially do it. All they'd have to do is send a few threatening letters to
>a few key web hosts and poof - we'd be shut down overnight *whether or not we
>were doing anything wrong*!
Commercial web hosts are notoriously sensitive to bad publicity and
lawsuits.
However, IF has one advantage: it is very low on bandwidth and storage
requirements. So the IF archive could be set up on a private machine
connected to an ISP who is less sensitive to such pressure - an
academic site, perhaps, or a site in some "data haven" outside the US.
Provided the Archive didn't contain illegal material, of course - which
means it would probably have to be purged to ensure it didn't.
And it would still be a *major* hassle.
David Thornley
OKB -- not okblacke <bren...@aol.comRemove> wrote:
>m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>>*Of course* this means that it would be a good thing to see more
>>foreign-language IF on the Archive, and more translations of
>>foreign-language IF as well.
>>
>>But there may be problems if games in different languages are
>>entered in the same competition.
>
> I think the former might alleviate the latter. If foreign-language games
>(or, as you say, games translated from other languages which still retain a
>unique cultural perspective) were more common, I imagine we'd see less of an
>"us-vs.-them" mentality.
>
when there's enough commonality between "us" and "them". In this
case, "us" are people who produce games I can play, and "them"
are people who produce games I can't play. Unique cultural
perspectives are a relatively minor issue.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Andrea
just hope that you don't take it personally, but I disagree with your
view.
Magnus Olsson schrieb in Nachricht <9ttjg7$kd$1...@news.lth.se>...
>>But I think that the important thing here is not to keep the pool
>>of entries homogeneous, but to keep the judges homogeneous in some
>>sense. Not that all judges should think the same, of course (because
>>then we'd only need one judge) but it would be deeply unfortunate
>>if the judges consisted of disjoint subsets with different cultures
>>and radically different preferences.
>>
I have to disagree here. Does this mean that you want to
restrict who might judge a game? Should only people whose first language is
english be able to vote? I don't think that this was what you wanted to say,
right? Because today the judges are heterogenous, in spite of most games
beeing in english.
>>This would be risk if there were many, say, FInnish entries and many
>>Finnish judges. We may end up with a situation like the Eurovision
>>song contest (where each country tends to vote on songs from countries
>>with similar languages and cultures): Finns giving high scores to
>>Finnish games and low scores to English ones, with everybody else
>>not even voting on the Finnish entries.
What would be different, if the finish game was translated into english?
The cultural differences and preferences would surely stay. Do you want to
prevent that? And as I've said in another thread, once there is a
substancial number
of finnish games in the comp it would still be time to make a change to the
rules.
I don't think that one or two games that aren't in english are the end of
the comp.
>
>But IF from different cultures is likely to be different.
>
I have to disagree here too. Looking at the games released in german,
spanish and french I see
a great deal of similarity in the settings, plots, genres etc.
I think there's *much* more that we share,especially if you only take people
who play IF.
I've found that most of us here share an interest in literature, computers,
we probably watch the same movies, etc. I've also found that there's a large
interest in science fiction, fantasy,
roleplaying etc.
Do you really think that Finnish or Spanish or German or whatever judges
wouldn't recognize a good english game? And why shouldn't they be fair?
Most of them have probably played and judged previous comps like me.
What you suggest is, that people just say, oh this game is in my language,
so I'll give it a 10. If anybody is starting this the comp will be
ridiculous and nobody
wants this to happen. Isn't the basis on which the comp is held,that voting
has to be fair and nobody tries to screw the votes? If we start getting
suspicious that voting isn't fair, we can probably forget any comp, and that
is the last thing I want to see coming.
It's not that the comp is about whether Finnish or Spanish or German games
are better.
I'd really like the comp to remain open for non-english games, because I
think that's
in the spirit of the comp. If there are people who think they want to
automatically
rate every non-english game with a 1, so be it, that's something such a game
has to
count with. And of course it's also ok, that Shattered Memory was
disqualified, since that was a violation of the rules.
rambled enough,
Andrea
OKB -- not okblacke
>In article <20011126102040...@mb-dh.aol.com>,
>OKB -- not okblacke <bren...@aol.comRemove> wrote:
>>m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>>>*Of course* this means that it would be a good thing to see more
>>>foreign-language IF on the Archive, and more translations of
>>>foreign-language IF as well.
>>>
>>>But there may be problems if games in different languages are
>>>entered in the same competition.
>>
>> I think the former might alleviate the latter. If foreign-language
>games
>>(or, as you say, games translated from other languages which still retain a
>>unique cultural perspective) were more common, I imagine we'd see less of an
>>"us-vs.-them" mentality.
>>
>I doubt it. Familiarity works to reduce the "us vs. them" mentality
>when there's enough commonality between "us" and "them". In this
>case, "us" are people who produce games I can play, and "them"
>are people who produce games I can't play. Unique cultural
>perspectives are a relatively minor issue.
Well, this is true for games in foreign languages you don't read, but I
don't see why it has to be true for translations (into a language you can read,
of course).
OKB -- not okblacke
>This spins away a bit from the original thread, but:
>
>I'd really like to see MIDI blessed in Blorb files as well.
I second that.
>Yes, I know we have MODs, but there's no really usable Midi to Mod
>converter I was ever able to find, and much more of the music I want to
>use is findable as MIDI. Plus, I can kinda-sorta fight my way through
>Cakewalk, but not through MOD creators, although that's a time and
>training issue.
I second that.
>I don't care that the player have the precise experience I did; it is
>perfectly acceptable to me to say, "I would like a piano playing *this*
>score, a trumpet playing *this*, and a snare drum doing *that*" and let
>the player's General Midi patches worry about the actual rendering. The
>whole MOD looping and sampling thing scares me; it's a lot more fiddling
>with electronica than the composing (which is admittedly crappy and
>limited) I can do if I say, "put the melody on an alto sax here, and
>back it with the following chords from a bass guitar."
I really second that. I'm not interested in doing funky effects (or
rather, I am, but not at this time interested in using them in music in a
game), so if I can't write the music out in standard score notation I'll pass.
I imagine there are more than few musicians who feel this way, so I bet we're
missing out on some good music.
And, to go further off-topic, MP3 would be great. (I'm turning my head
heavenward as I write this.)
Magnus Olsson
Andrea <an...@exmail.de> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson schrieb in Nachricht <9ttjg7$kd$1...@news.lth.se>...
>
>>>But I think that the important thing here is not to keep the pool
>>>of entries homogeneous, but to keep the judges homogeneous in some
>>>sense. Not that all judges should think the same, of course (because
>>>then we'd only need one judge) but it would be deeply unfortunate
>>>if the judges consisted of disjoint subsets with different cultures
>>>and radically different preferences.
>>>
>
>I have to disagree here. Does this mean that you want to
>restrict who might judge a game? Should only people whose first language is
>english be able to vote? I don't think that this was what you wanted to say,
>right?
No, of course not.
>Because today the judges are heterogenous, in spite of most games
>beeing in english.
Yes.
What I meant was this: if there are two disjoint categories of
games, say games of type X and Y, and two separate groups
of judges, call them A and B, such that a judge from group A only
plays games of type X, and a judge from group B only plays games
of type Y, then it would be better to hold two separate competitions.
And the risk I'm seeing is that if X == games in English, and
Y == games in (say) Syldavian, then we risk getting two groups
of judges as well.
>>>This would be risk if there were many, say, FInnish entries and many
>>>Finnish judges. We may end up with a situation like the Eurovision
>>>song contest (where each country tends to vote on songs from countries
>>>with similar languages and cultures): Finns giving high scores to
>>>Finnish games and low scores to English ones, with everybody else
>>>not even voting on the Finnish entries.
>
>
>What would be different, if the finish game was translated into english?
Then the judges who don't speak Finnish would be able to play it
and vote on it.
>The cultural differences and preferences would surely stay. Do you want to
>prevent that?
No. Firstly, I don't want to prevent cultural differences between games
or between judges.
I want to avoid that games and/or judges are sorted into different
categories depending on cultural or linguistic or any other differences.
Simply put, I do *not* want to avoid games written by Germans, or Finns,
or Syldavians. I do *not* want to avoid judges from Germany, or Finland,
or Syldavia.
What I want to avoid is the situation where German games are judged on
different criteria than Finnish games, because only German judges vote
on the German games, and only Finnish judges vote on the Finnish
games.
See the difference?
>And as I've said in another thread, once there is a
>substancial number
>of finnish games in the comp it would still be time to make a change to the
>rules.
>I don't think that one or two games that aren't in english are the end of
>the comp.
If you go back and read my post again, you'll see that I wrote more or
less the same thing. So there's no disagreement on this point.
>>But IF from different cultures is likely to be different.
>>
>
>
>I have to disagree here too. Looking at the games released in german,
>spanish and french I see
>a great deal of similarity in the settings, plots, genres etc.
>I think there's *much* more that we share,especially if you only take people
>who play IF.
OK, I formulated myself a bit badly there. I did *not* mean "cultures"
as in "national cultures". I meant sub-cultures of IF authors who only
interact among themselves. The IF community on this newsgroups tends
to exclude people who don't speak English (and no, letting people post
in German on the newsgroups won't remedy that, if you think about it).
I have the impression that there is another, Spanish-language, IF
comminty that may have a different sub-culture.
Or perhaps the differences are so small that it's not problem.
>Do you really think that Finnish or Spanish or German or whatever judges
>wouldn't recognize a good english game? And why shouldn't they be fair?
What if they can't understand English? (OK, it's unlikely that Finnish
or German judges won't understand them, but what about the Syldavian
or Ruritanian ones?)
No, the problem is much more likely to be the other way round:
English games will be understood. German games will not be understood
by most Americans. Finnish games will be understood by almost nobody
outside Finland (or parts of neighbouring countries).
That *could* be a problem. I'm not saying that it will be, but that
it could.
>What you suggest is, that people just say, oh this game is in my language,
>so I'll give it a 10.
No, what I suggest is something different: that people will not
understand all the games, so they will only vote on the subset they
understand. Or, even worse, people will give 1's to all games they
didn't understand.
Please understand: I'm *not* saying that people are chauvinistic, or
consciously unfair, but that the *situation* where some games are
only understood by a minority of the judges is in some way unfair.
OK. Enough about this.
I'm *not* saying that we should forbid non-English entries, or even
that it will be a problem.
All I'm saying is that this *may* be a problem, but that it's
too early to deal with it now.
Let's wait and see what happens, shall we?
Rikard Peterson
meddelandet news:ykxM7.1833$kM3.2...@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> So what's the answer? The obvious one is COLLABORATION. I think
> we'd be surprised at the number of IFers who have multi-media
> skills that they'd happily contribute to other's games. Maybe
> someone could maintain a register, something like the beta-
> testers list, where artists and composers could offer their
> skills. You could also make enquiries in other relevant
> newsgroups. It's possible - it's not as easy as downloading
> something from the internet, but it's worth it not to be
> looking down the barrel of a gun held by 500 ruthless
> copyright lawyers.
It will also most likely make a better game.
Mike Duncan
wrote:
>I don't care that the player have the precise experience I did; it is
>perfectly acceptable to me to say, "I would like a piano playing *this*
>score, a trumpet playing *this*, and a snare drum doing *that*" and let
>the player's General Midi patches worry about the actual rendering.
Yep. I tried to run everything I wrote for Fusillade through a few
libraries to make sure it wouldn't range too much, though.
The
>whole MOD looping and sampling thing scares me; it's a lot more fiddling
>with electronica than the composing (which is admittedly crappy and
>limited) I can do if I say, "put the melody on an alto sax here, and
>back it with the following chords from a bass guitar."
Right. It was a very welcome surprise to find that TADS could handle
raw MIDI.
I wrote everything inside a transcribing rogram I use for more serious
stuff and general doodling. Its MIDI-exporting can only handle a few
simultanous instruments and has little to offer in percussion, but
it's wildly extravagant for my purposes.
Mike Duncan
http://www.boston.quik.com/mduncan/
Elise Stone
>
>Those were midi replays of works, not the actual copyrighted works themselves.
>I view it as someone playing a guitar with sheet music vs. the original
>recording of the music. I am totally unable to create original music. Also the
>help screen specifically said that the music came from the Internet, so I did
>not pretend it was original.
>
As others have pointed out, copyright law doesn't differentiate these
cases. And I never intended to imply that you were dishonest in your
use of this music. It certainly was clear to me that you were not the
author of the music.
>However, if someone feels it is necessary to disqualify Carma for that reason,
>I can live with it. Since I am not a big annual comp lover anyway. Also, I
>would not be the only one disqualified (Stiffy Makane would have to be
>disqualified too, along with at least one other).
>
>
I suspected that Stiffy had the same problem, but nothing there was as
recognizable to me as the music in Carma was.
I'm sorry that you took my post so personally. I enjoyed Carma
immensely and laughed out loud several times. I wasn't looking for it
to be disqualified, but was more interested in a clarification of the
rules for any future IF that I might write myself. I can't draw a
straight line with a ruler and my attempts at music composition are
amateurish, to say the least. So, before I spent a considerable amount
of time on a game that relied heavily on graphics and/or sound that I
couldn't create myself, I wanted a rule clarification, which Stephen
has provided.
Elise
OKB -- not okblacke
>I'm *not* saying that we should forbid non-English entries, or even
>that it will be a problem.
>
>All I'm saying is that this *may* be a problem, but that it's
>too early to deal with it now.
>
>Let's wait and see what happens, shall we?
This sounds like a good plan.
Alan DeNiro
Interestingly, it stated that, at least in regard to SAMPLING, it is
fair use to use a snippet of a song that was released prior to 1972,
since the pertinent copyright law regarding music wasn't passed until
then. I don't have the exact citation in front of me now, but anyways,
another frill to the discussion.
Alan
John Hill
> Believe me, I've seen it. Don't mess with copyright law - the winner is
> always whoever has the biggest bank account, and that is never you.
It's a bittersweet symphony, this life.
JH
Magnus Olsson
Marco Thorek <ma...@infocom-if.org> wrote:
>"L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
>>
>> For the love of god!
>> This *is* getting ridiculous. Yeah. the German game got rated a
>> 1. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. "The Spanish game" *broke the
>> rules of the competion*.
>
>That's bull. If the IOC would live by rules like that, the Olympics
>would be gone a long time ago.
The Olympics only allow participants who have never participated
in an international event before?
Or are you saying that people are allowed to break the rules in the
Olympics?
Eytan Zweig
"Marco Thorek" <ma...@infocom-if.org> wrote in message
news:3C0324D6...@infocom-if.org...
> "L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
> >
> > For the love of god!
> > This *is* getting ridiculous. Yeah. the German game got rated a
> > 1. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. "The Spanish game" *broke the
> > rules of the competion*.
>
> That's bull. If the IOC would live by rules like that, the Olympics
> would be gone a long time ago.
>
I can see it now:
Olympic Official: "I'm sorry, we discovered that this athelete used
steroids, he's disqualified".
Representitive from athlete's team: "Please don't disqualify him, he's
Spanish".
Olympic Official: "I don't see what that has to do with anything."
Representitive: "Well, the USA is much larger than Spain. They have lots of
great athletes there. But Spain is a small country and we don't have many
good atheletes - what harm is it if a Spanish man takes steroids? It's not
as if any Americans will know the difference."
Olympic Official: "Oh, in that case it's OK".
-----
The point is, you can debate the merit of the rule or not - you can debate
whether translations should or should not be allowed in future comp. But
saying that it was wrong to disqualify someone who knew that the rule was in
effect (or should have known - it was there in plain sight in the website),
but still chose to disobey it, just because the guy who did it was not an
English speaker - that's stupid. If he wasn't sure whether the rule applied
to translations or not, he should have consulted the Comp official. Maybe
then he could have convinced him to change/clarify the rule to allow
translations in time. But since the author of Shattered Memory just went
ahead and ignored the rule, he deserves being disqualified.
I'm not from an English speaking country myself. I can't even write IF in my
language without building my parser from scratch, because no IF system I
know supports right-to-left typing. But if I ever write a Hebrew game, I'd
sure like it to be judged by the same rules as everyone else - and not to
say "But I wrote this in Hebrew, I need special treatment".
Eytan
> Marco
Andrea
ok, I admit that I exaggerated a bit because I was annoyed by all this
discussion and unfortunately it was you that got hit.
I see your point about the two disjoint groups, I just don't believe that
it's a reality or will become so in the foreseeable future.
Do you really think that the Syldavian author has become interested in IF
solely on the basis of Syldavian games? This if even true if a slightly
larger community like in Spain has maybe formed. So I don't see it as a
subculture, rather it's a part of it. That's why I'm all for translations, I
mean I don't think that for international literary prices every judge has to
read the book in the original language.
But this is a hobby and while most people around here are fairly fluent in
english there still is a gap to be bridged if you write a major piece.
That's why I can perfectly understand that there might be a few authors that
prefer to write in their native language. And by entering in the comp they
want to present it to the wides possible audience. By getting good results
he might encourage someone to do a translation so everybody can play it.
No, I don't want to turn this into a german or whatever newsgroup, but I'm
not in the position to prevent it either. I've seen quite a few newsgroups
where an ocasional post in a non-english language is just ignored by the
others assuming it isn't of general interest, instead of flaming back.
>Let's wait and see what happens, shall we?
yep. time to put aside this stuped discussions and get on.
take care,
Andrea
Oren Ronen
news:9tvenl$52i87$1...@ID-101183.news.dfncis.de...
>
> I'm not from an English speaking country myself. I can't even write IF in
my
> language without building my parser from scratch, because no IF system I
> know supports right-to-left typing. But if I ever write a Hebrew game, I'd
> sure like it to be judged by the same rules as everyone else - and not to
> say "But I wrote this in Hebrew, I need special treatment".
As an aside, a Hebrew interpreter may be possible in Inform. I got as far as
right-to-left input years ago (using the status window), but never took it
further. The actual interpreter changes are probably much harder to
implement due to the linguistic differences between English and Hebrew.
Of course, you need an interpreter capable of displaying Hebrew text.
DosFrotz did the job, but probably requires an Israeli machine. WinFrotz
should be able to handle it, but I never succeeded making it display
anything other than gibberish.
Oren Ronen
or...@isdn.net.il
Richard Bos
>
> "Marco Thorek" <ma...@infocom-if.org> wrote in message
> news:3C0324D6...@infocom-if.org...
> > "L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
> >
> > > For the love of god!
> > > This *is* getting ridiculous. Yeah. the German game got rated a
> > > 1. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. "The Spanish game" *broke the
> > > rules of the competion*.
> >
> > That's bull. If the IOC would live by rules like that, the Olympics
> > would be gone a long time ago.
>
> I can see it now:
>
> Olympic Official: "I'm sorry, we discovered that this athelete used
> steroids, he's disqualified".
> Representitive from athlete's team: "Please don't disqualify him, he's
> Spanish".
Athlete: "You are a chideous baboon!"
Richard
Magnus Olsson
Andrea <an...@exmail.de> wrote:
>ok, I admit that I exaggerated a bit because I was annoyed by all this
>discussion and unfortunately it was you that got hit.
There seems to be a lot of hurt feelings in this discussion. I can't
help reflect that people are taking the Competition way too seriously.
Yes, I'm probably included among those people.
>Do you really think that the Syldavian author has become interested in IF
>solely on the basis of Syldavian games? This if even true if a slightly
>larger community like in Spain has maybe formed.
What I've heard is that there exist non-English IF communities and
that they interact very little with "our" community. I was extrapolating
from that.
>That's why I'm all for translations, I
>mean I don't think that for international literary prices every judge has to
>read the book in the original language.
And did I say I was against translations? Did *anybody* say that?
>That's why I can perfectly understand that there might be a few authors that
>prefer to write in their native language. And by entering in the comp they
>want to present it to the wides possible audience. By getting good results
>he might encourage someone to do a translation so everybody can play it.
But should the Comp be the vehicle to get the widest possible audience
for German games? There are other ways to success than entering the Comp.
I think this is the crux of the matter: The Comp serves several
purposes. One is to stimulate the writing of new IF. Another is to
give authors an audience. A third is to be a fair competition. There
are more.
These purposes contradict each other. We must choose which of them is
the most important, and which may have to stand back a bit.
>No, I don't want to turn this into a german or whatever newsgroup, but I'm
>not in the position to prevent it either. I've seen quite a few newsgroups
>where an ocasional post in a non-english language is just ignored by the
>others assuming it isn't of general interest, instead of flaming back.
I didn't see anyone "flaming back" at the "occasional post". Of
course, I may have missed that, but my opinion (that it's rude to post
in a language not understood by the majority of the group) was
actually solicited by a direct question, IIRC.
dhan
> Olympic Official: "I'm sorry, we discovered that this athelete used
> steroids, he's disqualified".
> Representitive from athlete's team: "Please don't disqualify him, he's
> Spanish".
> Olympic Official: "I don't see what that has to do with anything."
> Representitive: "Well, the USA is much larger than Spain. They have lots of
> great athletes there. But Spain is a small country and we don't have many
> good atheletes - what harm is it if a Spanish man takes steroids? It's not
> as if any Americans will know the difference."
> Olympic Official: "Oh, in that case it's OK".
Sorry, but this is too much!! Well, I accept Akbarr "break" third
rule, but I want to appoint one thing you maybe don´t know (and surely
*officially* we will never know and it´s ok so): surely (because
Spanish Representitive is so small) two or three of us have voted in
the IFComp. The break of the rule is no debatable, of course, but
don´t think Shattered get advantage in the score.
I encourage all of you that aren´t English to translate your games. If
you have so enough I suggest to comp organizers to create a
Translation comp parallel.
Regards,
dhan
Matthew Russotto
I believe the most recent acts eliminated that loophole retroactively.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
=====
Get Caught Reading, Go To Jail!
A message from the Association of American Publishers
Free Dmitry Sklyarov! DMCA delenda est!
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Kevin
> A brief note to encourage people to watch who they list as writing
> what in these discussions. For example:
>
> zolta...@yahoo.de (zoltan) writes:
>
> > Stephen Granade wrote:
> > > While playing Carma, I was totally surprised that the background music
> > > consisted of copyrighted works ("The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
> > > Theme", "We Shall Overcome" and, yes, even the CNN
> > > whatever-you-call-it.)
>
> The only problem is, I wrote none of that.
I think this happens due to lazy quoting, especially when people break
up a quoted message to put in their own text-- it breaks the quoted
text away from the author's name. Maybe it's even the newsreader's
fault?
Google groups seems to handle it OK by shifting the color based on the
level of quote the text is in, so it's readily apparent who is being
quoted, but only if you don't mess with the brackets.
Andrea
I mostly agree with your last post, but I won't answer to anything specific
because I think it's not worth continuing with this argument. I'm quite sure
that we are not too far away from each other. We all want to have
a fair and fun comp. And that's the last thing I'm saying publically here, I
just don't like to go on arguing and causing hurt feelings on any side.
I'd like to repeat that I have absolutely nothing against you, and that I
took your first post a bit too harsh.
take care,
Andrea
Eytan Zweig
"dhan" <dh...@interlap.com.ar> wrote in message
news:c3cd4abe.01112...@posting.google.com...
> Hi again,
>
> > Olympic Official: "I'm sorry, we discovered that this athelete used
> > steroids, he's disqualified".
> > Representitive from athlete's team: "Please don't disqualify him, he's
> > Spanish".
> > Olympic Official: "I don't see what that has to do with anything."
> > Representitive: "Well, the USA is much larger than Spain. They have lots
of
> > great athletes there. But Spain is a small country and we don't have
many
> > good atheletes - what harm is it if a Spanish man takes steroids? It's
not
> > as if any Americans will know the difference."
> > Olympic Official: "Oh, in that case it's OK".
>
> Sorry, but this is too much!!
I obviously didn't mean any of that about Spanish athletes, and I'm very
sorry if anyone thinks I did. What I was responding was to someone who said
that the olympics would never function if they disqualified people for
breaking the rules. I was trying to show what it would be like if the
olympics would give special treatment to people just because they're not
American/English-speaking - which is what that poster was suggesting we do.
Well, I accept Akbarr "break" third
> rule, but I want to appoint one thing you maybe don´t know (and surely
> *officially* we will never know and it´s ok so): surely (because
> Spanish Representitive is so small) two or three of us have voted in
> the IFComp. The break of the rule is no debatable, of course, but
> don´t think Shattered get advantage in the score.
>
Maybe you're right - but I don't think it matters. You can't go around
breaking rules just because you don't think it hurts anyone. And why is
everyone so sure that the Spanish community is so insignificant? It may be
more powerful than you know - I definitely saw quite a few people here who
claim to be from that community.
> I encourage all of you that aren´t English to translate your games. If
> you have so enough I suggest to comp organizers to create a
> Translation comp parallel.
>
I agree 100% with this sentiment.
Eytan
> Regards,
> dhan