ANN: Shodan - a program to practice go problems
Ulrich Goertz
That
is why professionals recommend to study life and death or tesuji
problems.
Shodan is a program that allows you to do that: basically, the computer
displays a problem, and asks for the answer. You enter the first move,
the
computer responds, and so on until you reach the final solution or enter
a
wrong move.
The program (and more information, of course) is available from the
Shodan web page at http://www.g0ertz.de/shodan/ .
The main features of Shodan are
* It is free. Shodan is published under the GNU General Public License
(GPL), so you don't have to pay anything to use it. Moreover you may
freely distribute it. You also get the full source code and may add
your
own features to the program, as long as you also release the changes
under the GPL.
* It is cross-platform. Shodan is written in Python (with Tkinter for
the graphical user interface). So you may have to install Python
first;
but it comes with most Linux distributions nowadays, can be installed
on
Windows machines in a minute with a comfortable installer, and is
available on nearly any platform (Apple Macintosh, of course, but also
other UNIX versions, etc.). Go to http://www.python.org/ for more
information
on Python (and how to install it; also see the Shodan documentation).
* It uses the SGF format for storing the problems. That means that you
can
easily (with any SGF editor, in fact) generate your own problem
database.
Also, if you find an error in an existing database, you can fix it
yourself.
Comments from the SGF files are automatically displayed, and you can
also give 'wrong variations' that contain the refutation of a certain
move.
* In order to make sure that you do not only learn the answer in one
particular
position, but rather the right move for a certain shape, Shodan
randomly
switches the colors (black <-> white) and changes the position on the
board (by mirroring/rotating) of the problem.
* If you are stuck, you can look at the solution of the problem. You can
also, at any time, play out a variation of your own (for example when
you
want to convince yourself why a certain move does not (or does) work.
* There is a customizable stop clock; so you can set the time you have
for answering yourself. If the problems in the current database are
easy,
try to solve them in thirty seconds (or less ...), if they are hard,
allow
yourself more time to think or turn off the clock.
* It comes with 5 problem collections (very easy, easy, medium, hard &
very hard) with 100 problems altogether. These problems are from
various sources, listed below. As far as I understand, taking single
problems from a book or other collection does not impose copyright
problems. Of course, if any of the publishers of these books
disagrees, I will remove the concerning problems from the Shodan
collection; please contact me in that case. Certainly the collection
here
is not and is not meant as a replacement of the books. Rather take
it as an appetizer and encouragement to buy them!
The sources I used are (most of them are not in English; these are
more or less the titles under which I purchased the books):
- Maeda's Life and Death problems, volumes I, II, III
- Bewitching tesuji, volumes I, II
- Life and Death with Go Seigen
- Go Technika
- Encyclopedia of Tesuji, Nihon Kiin
- Cho's Encyclopedia of Life and Death (on disk)
- the Badukbank website (http://www.badukbank.co.kr/)
- Elementary Life and Death
- Gateway to all Marvels, edited by J. Fairbairn, on the MSO website
(see
http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/orient/go/special/gofeatures.html)
- the "Problematic" website at http://www.goproblems.com/
- Igo Hatsuyoron
- Gengen Gokyo
- some of the "very easy" and "easy" problems I "created" on my own;
of
course they are not new, but they are not taken from any specific
source.
Certainly for some people the "easy" problems are not so easy, and
others
will not find the "hard" problems difficult at all. After playing
through
these problems so often to test the program, I am not even sure
anymore,
that the "hard" problems are really harder then the "easy" ones :-)
I hope you will find some problems that are suitable for you, anyway.
Considering that only some of the problems will be suitable for any
particular level, 100 problems obviously are not much.
It would be desirable to make more problems available in SGF format;
of course, because of the copyright, it is not possibly to put a
whole book into SGF and give it away; also from an ethical point of
view,
this would be undesirable, since I think it is important to support
the
authors and publishers of such books. I think it would be ideal if
some Go
publishers would sell problem collections in SGF format, at a
reasonable
price. It should be easy enough to find volunteers who put (parts of)
a
book into SGF.
If you own a copy of Cho's Encyclopedia of Life and Death on disk,
you can use the program cho2sgf.py (to be found on the same web page
as Shodan) to translate those problems into SGF format and use them
with Shodan.
Acknowledgments:
- Shodan uses David Goodger's sgflib.py module, which provides a SGF
parser
in Python. (See http://gotools.sourceforge.net/)
- Several programs (like Tsume Go Goliath; Go Elementary Training and
Dan
Level Testing; Tesuji Made Easy; Cho's Encyclopedia of Life and Death
- all
commercial) are out there that do similar things, and certain features
of Shodan were inspired by one of them or the other. Some of them are
much
more powerful than Shodan. In particular let me mention the website
http://www.problematic.com/ (created by adum) which allows you to
practice go
problems online. It also is free and works on many platforms (it uses
Java).
Disclaimer:
I have thoroughly tested Shodan on one Linux box, and installed and
briefly
tested it on two Windows systems (Win95, Win2000), and two other Linux
systems.
There are no bugs that I know of, but since this is the very first
published
version, probably some bugs exist nevertheless. So let me state clearly
that
this program comes WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied
warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
General
Public License for more details.
Where to get Shodan:
- You can download the Shodan distribution (as a .tar.gz for Linux/Unix
or
as a .zip file for Windows/Macintosh) from
(NB: The 0 in g0ertz is a zero!)
On that page you can also find more information about Shodan,
including some
screenshots.
Give it a try and please send me your feedback! Any comments, and
especially
bug reports are welcome.
Ulrich
Ulrich Goertz
hard & very hard) with 120 problems altogether. These problems
any particular level, 120 problems obviously are not much.
Bill Spight
> * It comes with 5 problem collections (very easy, easy, medium,
> hard & very hard) with 120 problems altogether. These problems
> are from various sources, listed below. As far as I understand,
> taking single problems from a book or other collection does not
> impose copyright problems. Of course, if any of the publishers
> of these books disagrees, I will remove the concerning problems
> from the Shodan collection; please contact me in that case.
> Certainly the collection here is not and is not meant as a
> replacement of the books. Rather take it as an appetizer and
> encouragement to buy them!
As far as I understand it, publishing these collections in your program
does violate copyright. At the same time, many problems are old and have
become public domain. Also, the Nihon Kiin has a history of being
generous with its copyright for Western publication. I do not know about
the other publishers, but you should ask. :-)
Best regards,
Bill
The Nose Who Knows
> http://www.g0ertz.de/shodan/ .
Thanks for making this, Ulrich, and for making it Free Software.
> * It comes with 5 problem collections (very easy, easy, medium,
> hard & very hard) with 120 problems altogether. These problems
> are from various sources, listed below. As far as I understand,
> taking single problems from a book or other collection does not
> impose copyright problems. Of course, if any of the publishers
> of these books disagrees, I will remove the concerning problems
I agree with other posters that you should ask for permission rather
than assume it; if nothing else, it's polite :-)
> - Shodan uses David Goodger's sgflib.py module, which provides
> a SGF parser in Python. (See http://gotools.sourceforge.net/)
Great to see David's software going to good use.
> Give it a try and please send me your feedback! Any comments,
> and especially bug reports are welcome.
Looks good so far!
--
\ "In general my children refuse to eat anything that hasn't |
`\ danced on television." -- Erma Bombeck |
_o__) |
http://bignose.squidly.org/ 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B
Gary Odom
U.S. law is conformant to international
agreement (1996 Uruguay Round), so what applies
in the U.S. also applies internationally.
Go board patterns are not subject to copyright,
as they depict a process.
A process cannot be copyrighted.
Simple as that.
Commentary is subject to copyright.
Organization may be subject to copyright.
For more details regarding copyright & Go patterns, please see:
http://www.teleport.com/~kogo/copyright.htm
A U.S. copyright office FAQ is at:
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html#wnp
I work at an intellectual property law firm,
albeit primarily as a technical consultant on patent litigation,
but I checked with a copyright attorney at the firm
to come to the opinion stated.
Gary Odom
___________________
"The Nose Who Knows" <bignose-h...@and-zip-does-too.com.au> wrote in
message news:slrn9h116d.rj6.b...@rose.jelly.local...
John Fairbairn
> Let's get the copyright issue settled.
>
> U.S. law is conformant to international
> agreement (1996 Uruguay Round), so what applies
> in the U.S. also applies internationally.
A welcome contribution from an expert, but I presume you mean what applies
internationally applies in the US :)
> Go board patterns are not subject to copyright,
> as they depict a process.
That is simple enough as it stands, but what constitutes a process? Patterns
of notes creating music are copyrightable. What makes go different?
Substitute stones for notes and there is at least a superficial similarity.
As I understand it, what makes a go game a process is that two people play
and neither can control the other. The necessary interaction is the process.
But, if that is correct, can it be said that a joseki or a problem where all
the moves (notes) are created by one player does not constitute a process,
and is therefore copyrightable?
-
Much as I would prefer that aesthetic, unfortunately that's
not the way of the world. Consider, for example, "the problem of
transition:" new personnel, clueless wannabees, deterioration of
participation from former knowledged members, lawyers "wanting to
make trouble," politicians promising legal changes, legislators
who consider their "management task" that of manipulating the jots
and tittles of law. Laws are not enforced unless police and others
who work with assisting the police get pro-active. Civil society
is -NOT- on automatic pilot with an automatic transmission: it asks
for an ongoing commitment from those who would uphold its standards.
Many cannot help but notice, while you offer that little blurbsheet
about "etiquette" on your website, the activity you had promoted on
IGS while serving as an implicit ambassador for the U.S. to Japan.
> U.S. law is conformant to international
> agreement (1996 Uruguay Round), so what applies
> in the U.S. also applies internationally.
Such agreements must be renewed periodically, since nothing
is permanent, and the specifics of various agreements vary among
participating countries so as not to obtain any universal guides.
In other words, these are -pairwise- agreements among signatories,
not necessarily a blanket agreement among them all.
> Go board patterns are not subject to copyright,
> as they depict a process.
> A process cannot be copyrighted.
> Simple as that.
Too simple. Some reasons for denying copyrights, to processes
and (certain) protocols, stem from the likelihood of serendipity for
those processes and (certain) protocols where the common (independent)
discoveries arrive at convergent solutions. A "protocol" sometimes
is purposed for recruitment towards a convergent standard, and taken
in that sense should not be copyright. A "protocol" however, can also
be applied toward the -specific- sense in the key/lock construction,
and may be copyrightable, even patentable, for that interpretation.
The word "protocol" is an extremely -general- term, meaning that it
may apply to something general -or- specific. The game record is
not copyrightable, however the game commentary may be copyrighted.
Suppose however, that the game commentary is the product of a school
of Go (multiple authors in a certain Go Academy). In that sense the
game commentary might carry the imprimatur of protocol (the official
position), yet still enjoy copyright under scholastic auspices.
In copyright infringement cases, one consideration is to make
the likelihood calculation of serendipitous discovery. Given two
texts for comparison what is the probability that two authors had
independently arrived at a common, or identical, text generation?
What are any necessary driving circumstances that could justify why
they might have arrived at a common, or identical, text generation?
Are there any mitigating considerations, such as the "parody" genre
in the _The_Wind_Done_Gone_ case, which offer free speech protection?
> [ ... ] I work at an intellectual property law firm, albeit primarily
> as a technical consultant on patent litigation, but I checked with a
> copyright attorney at the firm to come to the opinion stated.
Perhaps you should check with the court litigation next time.
- regards
- jb
.
Gary Odom
"what applies internationally applies in the US".
The thrust of copyright is, quoting the US Copyright Office FAQ page:
"Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a
tangible form of expression....
"Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal
copyright protection. These include among others:
"Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles,
discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation,
or illustration."
This, like everything else, is subject to debate, and John raises
interesting points.
But consider that most if not all Go board positions found in books
have arisen in play or study over the past several hundred years,
independently, many times over:
one could hardly claim "original work of authorship".
That's the problem with claiming copyright of any board game position or
sequence.
You can't just copy a book, as organization can be construed
a work of authorship.
Aside from that, as to any individual or collection of position/pattern,
I don't think a good legal case could be made for infringement.
As for a bit of affirmative evidence, a publisher wanted to stop me
from distributing Kogo's Joseki Dictionary,
but was dissuaded.
I haven't been (and am still not) telling the whole story
behind my opinion.
Gary Odom
"John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:991000232.16067.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
-
> From: "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com>
>> ... U.S. law is conformant to international
>> agreement (1996 Uruguay Round), so what applies
>> in the U.S. also applies internationally.
From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
> A welcome contribution from an expert, but I presume you mean
> what applies internationally applies in the US :)
Actually these are seperable questions. The international
agreements are like extradition suits, the terms to which each
participating signatory agrees when honoring enforcement claims
presented under international trade-agreements. Strictly speaking
the history of copyright was delimited by national borders, and
still is, so it's a commerce clause that allows for international
enforcement agreements (meaning there is "flexibility" involved).
>> Go board patterns are not subject to copyright,
>> as they depict a process.
> That is simple enough as it stands, but what constitutes a
> process? Patterns of notes creating music are copyrightable. What
> makes go different? Substitute stones for notes and there is at
> least a superficial similarity.
Computers have done much to destroy former notions of copyright.
In theory one could generate reams and reams of melodic combinations
and then claim copyright for all of them. Again, the likelihood of
serendipitous arrival at certain pattern arrangements plays much in
determining copyright enforcement. The process of playing a game
is also not being put out for publication: likewise when playing a
musical tune under copyright there is not necessarily an infringement
where money is not involved (not concerts or recordings). Equity
plays a role in according subsistence and survival for the artists.
Market saturation can also dilute copyright enforcement, since the
numbers of participants change the duplicate likelihood calculation.
Popularity can also work toward more stringent copyrights: the
novel musical tune is "catchy" thus asks for copyright, however the
_joseki_ is merely a contrived convenience in a specialized context.
One needs to be a Go Player in order to appreciate a _joseki_ but
one does not need to be a musician in order to appreciate music.
> As I understand it, what makes a go game a process is that two
> people play and neither can control the other. The necessary
> interaction is the process.
No, that's a specific "two player process" however the general
term "process" applies to anything anybody wants it to mean. In
other words if you don't know what to call something at least you
can't go wrong in calling it a "process." In the legal sense the
interpretation of "process" is formalized (meaning it is rule-based).
Events of human affairs become rule-based owing to their exigencies
of business and time constraints. Even if the two players both sat
before an empty board with neither making a move, you could still
call it a "process," or rather a "process of stalemate or standoff."
While it is possible that certain game examples can be regarded
as "expressions of art" in general that is not the case: so "the
game" is itself is not necessarily a craft but merely a crass idiom.
> But, if that is correct, can it be said that a joseki or a problem
> where all the moves (notes) are created by one player does not
> constitute a process, and is therefore copyrightable?
The hang-up here concerns the false premise that a process (or
a protocol) should automatically be non-copyrightable. Copyrights
and patents are themselves also processes and protocols. A history
of copyright stems from preservation of national economic security:
the artists within that country are afforded copyright protection
to encourage inventions worthy to the nation, and even to encourage
immigration of other artists and inventors to that given country.
International agreements are a symptom of globalism, however if all
countries were offered the same standards of copyright protection
then none of them could obtain any copyright advantages over others.
Aside from a national economic security, one may turn to questions
of human respect in protections afforded to invention rights, and
also to considerations of privacy, liberty, and autonomous rights of
local controls over the course of individual and social development.
The number of participants to a process (one or many) plays little
or no role, in theories of copyright. Actually that's a fundamental
characteristic of much legal thinking: to be numerically independent.
Maybe that causes people associated with gaming and computer science
to exhibit abysmal deficiencies for activities of the verbal realm.
Ulrich Goertz
I would like to explain my opinion about the copyright
question more clearly. I am not a lawyer, and my
opinion mainly stems from what I read on rec.games.go
(see some of the messages that seem relevant to me
below).
I kind of like the following analogy with mathematics:
there are many books with exercises or explanations how
to compute certain integrals. For many specific integrals,
a certain trick is needed. It is clear that a collection
of such exercises or explanations is copyrightable,
and so are the explanations for any specific integral
themselves. On the other hand, it also seems clear to me
that the way of computation itself for any specific
integral is not under copyright. It would be no problem
to choose a couple of integrals from different sources
and publish a new collection.
I think that a similar reasoning applies to most go
problems. Furthermore, I suppose that most (all?) of the
problems from the collections I used, are already
known - at least up to trivial changes - for a long time.
This is supported by the fact that quite a few problems
appear in several collections.
I do think that certain Go problems are
copyrightable, namely if they contain "some additional
value". The problems of Yilun Yang recently published
in the AGA Journal in which the black stones form
some historical date (1492, 1776, 2000) would be a
good example. In my opinion some of the whole board
problems from the classic collections (Igo
Hatsuyoron, e.g.) might fall in the same category, but
of course since those are already very old, there
is no copyright in this case.
I thought that what I did was very similar to the
CD ROM "Tesuji Made Easy", recently published by
Yutopian, but on a much smaller scale: The CD contains
more than 2400 problems, collected from ancient and
modern sources. My collection contains 120 problems,
some of them "created" by myself, collected from
various sources with around 6000 problems
altogether - so these 120 are around 2%.
But even if I am pretty sure that no legal problems
exist for the Shodan collection, it is more important
to me that the publishers are not unhappy with it.
I agree that it would be better to ask them directly,
but that is just very difficult for me: the books I
have used are in Japanese or Chinese both of which
I cannot read. So it is not clear even where to find
the addresses of the publishers.
I really do not want to harm the publishers; rather
I would like to support them. Considering that for any
specific user only 20-30 problems will have the right
level, the Shodan collection is not very useful to
profoundly study life and death problems. I think that
Kiseido might be able to sell some copies of Cho's
Encyclopedia of Life and Death to people using
Linux or an Apple Macintosh and thus cannot use
the interface it comes with, but can use the problems
with Shodan. And although it is merely day-dreaming at
the moment, I also could imagine that a publisher
sells some of his books or other collections as
SGF files.
I would very much appreciate to hear the opinion of
some of the publishers/go book vendors who read
rec.games.go.
Ulrich
-----------------------------------
Here are some old r.g.g. messages on this topic,
mostly from Peter Zandveld.
-From: HetPaard (pa...@xs4all.nl)
Subject: Re: New Software - Tesuji Made Easy
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: 2000/06/16
for 10 years everybody could have written the software
for presenting the problems, for any platform - for free
or commercial. The problems themselves are from the
public domain! Until Yutopian translated a chinese program
nobody bothered. Any one complaining about the fact that
it is windows only, and commercial software is 10 years to late.
The text on the CD-Box reads : " There is an abundant of
Tesuji problems in this software, 2440 in all. With 425
problems on Making Life, 618 problems on Capturing Stones
(combined for a total 1043 problems on Life and Death), 217
problems on Capturing Races, 596 Endgame Moves, 259 problems
on Attack and 325 problems on Defence. The problems were
compiled from various sources, including famous classic
literatures of Xuan-Xuan-Qi-Jin, Igo Hatsuyo-ron, Guan-Zi-Pu,
GoKyo Shumyo, and modern books such as Encyclopedia of Life
and Death, Practical life and Death, Encyclopedia of Tesuji,
Middle game Skills, Practical Endgame Moves. This can be
considered as the most comprehensive collection of Tesuji
problems in the world.
Minimum requirements : IBM PC 486 or higher ; Windows 3.1,
Windows 95 or higher. "
[...]
------------------------------------------------------
-From: peter zandveld (zand...@mep.tno.nl)
Subject: Re: New Software - Tesuji Made Easy
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: 2000/06/26
Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> schreef in artikel
<394A96A5...@snafu.de>...
> What makes the problems public domain while they are taken
> from the sources above? Does such a procedure claim that
> anybody can take a few problem books, extract some problems,
> put them into a new book or software, and claim copyright
> for that new compilation?
This is what is happening all the time. In 'rescue and capture'
for example there are 2 problems also to be found in graded go
problems. Both of the authors made a selection out of the same
heritage of problems.
The compiler of the the tesuji-cd apparently did the same. He
does not pretend to be original, the fact that the problems are
considerd by the 'old masters' worth presenting is seen as a
recommendation and printed on the cover of the CD. In the case
of some problems the source is also printed on the screen.
[...]
---------------------------------------------
-From: peter zandveld (pa...@xs4all.nl)
Subject: Re: GO problems online. New site.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: 1998/07/22
[...]
As far as copyright is concerned: if you take a few problems
from a book like 'graded go problems for beginners' no copy
right problems will arise, though a reference to the source
would be justified. (I guess the pubishers would be delighted
if you take a few problems from each problem book existing,
with a reference to the source of each problem. I am not a
publisher and have not asked any of them about this. In fact
I was contemplating of scanning a few representative pages
from each book and put them on my site)
It is next to impossible to design completely new problems,
and easy problems have been copied for generations (in
'rescue and capture' are also 2 or 3 problems that also appear
in graded go problems vol 3 or 4: I do not believe they were
copied from 'graded'. Both authors have drawn on the same
heritage) Copyright problems only arise when large numbers
of problems are copied including solution diagrams,
accompagnying text etc.
------------------------
-From: Peter Zandveld (zand...@mep.tno.nl)
Subject: Re: Copyrighted problems
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: 1999/06/01
Copyright of special new problems is reasonable. Most of the
basic problems are not copyrightable as they are 1000 years
old. A book like 'graded go problems for beginners' is a
selection from the heritage. The selection and the grading is
copyrightable in my opinion. Yang Yilun has tapped from the
same heritage for his book 'rescue and capture'. At least two
problems of this booklet are also in 'graded go problems' -
nobody complained, and in my opinion this is no problem.
-------------------------
-From: David Fotland (fot...@cup.hp.com)
Subject: Re: go problems in sgf format?
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: 1999/04/16
Ethically, and legally it is wrong to distribute a set of
problems copied from a book. I think one can argue
successfully that any particular simple problem has
appeared in many places, and is not copyright by itself. But
a collection of such problems is clearly copyrighted, and the
problem book author went to some trouble to collect and
verify the problems and put them together according to
difficulty, etc.
I think that if you wanted to make your own collection
of problems for example to ilistrate a particular theme,
and you pulled problems from many sources, to make your
own collection, that this is OK.
--------------------------
Gary Odom
about copyright, namely that copyright is a reward
for effort. David expresses this sentiment succinctly:
"Ethically, and legally it is wrong to distribute a set of
problems copied from a book."
It is an understandable ethical feeling,
that one should not claim another's work as one's own,
or even use someone else's work without permission.
Copyright law did not derive from this sentiment,
but no doubt enjoyed, and still enjoys, popular support
because of it.
Understandable, ethical, and naive.
I'm not knocking naive, and I'm not criticizing (read on).
I admire and applaud the efforts
of both Ulrich Goertz & David Fotland.
I'm just trying to interject a bit of cold-eyed reality.
Copyright derived and operates as commercial protection.
All legally protected intellectual property
is essentially a negative grant:
someone else can't use what is claimed as protected.
The boundaries of copyright protection, and violation,
are relatively clear. (Trademarks are simpler, hence clearer;
patents are entertainingly vagarious.
Basically, in a case-law based system, you can tell how
contentious an area is by how historically thick
the litigation is.)
The outcome of protecting intellectual property is also
commercial: money changes hands.
No one in America does jail time for intellectual property
violation per se, anyway.
Besides lawyers fees, the big chunk of change in intellectual
property litigation is in damages.
No damages, no big chunk of change.
As a calculated transaction, people sue or settle
based upon cost-risk assessment: if you don't think
you can recover more than the cost of litigation,
turn a blind eye or settle cheap.
Ironically, if Urlich et al were correct about copyright,
his use of these patterns might entitle him to a copyright,
as they are a different expression than printed form.
My advice to those with copyright concerns, and with
concerns about action in life in general,
is not go too far beyond one's comfort zone.
Urlich, if think using some problem sets is
appropriation, you'll be unhappy if you do, so don't.
Legal? That's a different issue.
Gary Odom
P.S. As to "(harming) the publishers", I recommend
buying and publicly promoting their books. I have.
Stimulating interest in Go through, for example,
free software, enlarges the market for commercial
Go products such as books. No legal foul, no harm.
"Ulrich Goertz" <sho...@g0ertz.de> wrote in message
news:3B119061...@g0ertz.de...
-
From: "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com>
> Ulrich Goertz & David Fotland express similar sentiments
> about copyright, namely that copyright is a reward
> for effort. David expresses this sentiment succinctly:
> "Ethically, and legally it is wrong to distribute a set of
> problems copied from a book."
Ethical and legal concerns are not quite the same as moral
concerns; moreover it is not necessarily "a lack of work" to copy
a set of problems from a book. Prior to the printing press it
was also a considerable effort to (manually) copy anything.
> It is an understandable ethical feeling,
> that one should not claim another's work as one's own,
> or even use someone else's work without permission.
> Copyright law did not derive from this sentiment,
> but no doubt enjoyed, and still enjoys, popular support
> because of it.
It is not necessary to establish a particular derivation of
(copyright) law in order to present an argument for copyrights.
If you can justify some law that does not enjoy "popular support"
then by all means let's hear what you have to say right now.
> Understandable, ethical, and naive.
> I'm not knocking naive, and I'm not criticizing (read on).
> I admire and applaud the efforts
> of both Ulrich Goertz & David Fotland.
> I'm just trying to interject a bit of cold-eyed reality.
All that makes your reality "cold-eyed" is the propensity to
view reality that way. Your reality can be whatever you make it.
For example, you said earlier that you are a "culturalist" w/r/t
racism, which you admit is a particular view, not a general view.
> Copyright derived and operates as commercial protection.
> All legally protected intellectual property
> is essentially a negative grant:
> someone else can't use what is claimed as protected.
No. Protected intellectual property is a positive grant, since
those who want to protect their intellectual property under copyright
will tend to gravitate toward those regions of the world that provide
those particular legal protections. If you were an inventor in some
country that did not afford patent protections, then you would try
instead to obtain a patent for your invention in that country where
patent protections were afforded, perhaps through delegation via some
agent who is a citizen in the country where patents are protected.
Same might apply for authors (artists) seeking copyright protections.
> The boundaries of copyright protection, and violation,
> are relatively clear. (Trademarks are simpler, hence clearer;
> patents are entertainingly vagarious.
> Basically, in a case-law based system, you can tell how
> contentious an area is by how historically thick
> the litigation is.)
The simple cases you are prone to consider may be clear, but
those might not be the interesting cases. There is a tendency, in
a course of legal inquiry, to pose cases that verge upon a shadowy
grey-area, which is what some are proposing in terms of recompiled
bibliographical presentations for (remarketable) Go Problems.
Thickness of litigation can also point to simple popularity
rather than any necessary measure of contentiousness involved.
> The outcome of protecting intellectual property is also
> commercial: money changes hands.
> No one in America does jail time for intellectual property
> violation per se, anyway.
Copyright violations can be civil, or criminal (particularly
where privacy concerns and/or moral questions are at issue). The
criminal cases might entail language running substantially beyond
copyright considerations. Everyone in America "does jail time"
where freedom and liberty are infringed through mutual stupidity.
> Besides lawyers fees, the big chunk of change in intellectual
> property litigation is in damages.
> No damages, no big chunk of change.
> As a calculated transaction, people sue or settle
> based upon cost-risk assessment: if you don't think
> you can recover more than the cost of litigation,
> turn a blind eye or settle cheap.
If only money is involved in your calculations, then you have
effectively abandoned the moral dimensions here, which compromises
your credibility and claims to good character.
> Ironically, if Urlich et al were correct about copyright,
> his use of these patterns might entitle him to a copyright,
> as they are a different expression than printed form.
If Urlich is "entitled to a copyright," perhaps the prior
works from which he is appropriating materials in borderline fashion
might also have been entitled to their unique copyright protections.
Unfortunately that sword can cut both ways.
> My advice to those with copyright concerns, and with
> concerns about action in life in general,
> is not go too far beyond one's comfort zone.
> Urlich, if think using some problem sets is
> appropriation, you'll be unhappy if you do, so don't.
It's not one's personal "comfort zone" that decides whether or
not a given action is legal, moral, or ethical. These questions are
present in an external world of reality not dictated by any single
individual claiming some special perspective above all the rest.
You shouldn't give somebody extra-legal advice about legal questions.
> Legal? That's a different issue.
I think we knew that before reading your opinionated remarks.
Bottom-line: consult with a lawyer, or lawyers, about specific
questions. Don't rely merely upon your own sense of "comfort zone."
Bill Spight
> Go board patterns are not subject to copyright,
> as they depict a process.
> A process cannot be copyrighted.
> Simple as that.
"Musical scores are not subject to copyright, as they depict a
process."
Not!
> For more details regarding copyright & Go patterns, please see:
> http://www.teleport.com/~kogo/copyright.htm
>
That concerns joseki, which are different from composed problems.
> I work at an intellectual property law firm,
> albeit primarily as a technical consultant on patent litigation,
> but I checked with a copyright attorney at the firm
> to come to the opinion stated.
Check with the lawyer again, and make clear that you are talking about
composed problems, as opposed to game records or joseki. Composed go
problems fall into the same category as chess problems and studies,
bridge problems, brain teasers, and other problems and puzzles.
Best,
Bill
Barry Phease
wrote:
>Check with the lawyer again, and make clear that you are talking about
>composed problems, as opposed to game records or joseki. Composed go
>problems fall into the same category as chess problems and studies,
>bridge problems, brain teasers, and other problems and puzzles.
So "composed" problems can be contrasted with "accidental" problems
which may have occurred in an actual game. The copywrite status of
these "accidental" problems would be the same as the copywrite status
of the actual game from which it came. The process of extracting the
problem from the game (unaltered) would add a small amount of
information but presumably not enough for an independent copywrite.
The copywrite status might be different if the same problem had (or
even could reasonably have) come up in a number of different games.
There is no doubt that individual "composed" problems can be
copywrite, but that most problems occurring in problem books are not
copywrite. Most are taken from previous works and may be altered in
trivial ways, if at all. Generally if a problem is a creation of the
author of the book (or the rights are purchased) then the author will
explain its history.
Of course if you can't read the explanations, this may not help :)
Ted S.
<3b11cd41...@news.dun.ihug.co.nz>:
>On Sun, 27 May 2001 20:13:20 -0700, Bill Spight <Xbsp...@pacbell.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Check with the lawyer again, and make clear that you are talking about
>>composed problems, as opposed to game records or joseki. Composed go
>>problems fall into the same category as chess problems and studies,
>>bridge problems, brain teasers, and other problems and puzzles.
>
>So "composed" problems can be contrasted with "accidental" problems
>which may have occurred in an actual game. The copywrite status of
>these "accidental" problems would be the same as the copywrite status
>of the actual game from which it came. The process of extracting the
>problem from the game (unaltered) would add a small amount of
>information but presumably not enough for an independent copywrite.
>The copywrite status might be different if the same problem had (or
>even could reasonably have) come up in a number of different games.
Well, since we're talking about problems that come up 'accidentally' in the
course of a game, I'll post one. Technically, it's a composed problem, in
that it didn't actually come up in the game. White saw the proper Black
response, and so didn't play this variation. The interesting thing is, I
only saw the proper response after the game, and would have gone wrong at
the time had white actually tried it. :-)
If I hold any of the copyright for this nominally composed problem, I'm
allowing any or all of you on this group to use this problem free of charge
in a problem collection. Isn't that generous of me? ;-)
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . . . # . . . # # . | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # O O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
9 | O O O # . . O . . . O # . . . # # # # | 9
8 | O # O O . O . . . O # # . . . . . . . | 8
7 | O # O O O . . O O # . . . . . # . . . | 7
6 | # # # O # O O . O # . # # . # . # # # | 6
5 | . . # # # O # O O # # O O # # # O O # | 5
4 | . . # , # O # # O # O . . O # O . O # | 4
3 | . . . . # # . # # O . O . O O . O . O | 3
2 | . . . . . . # # O O . . . . . . . . . | 2
1 | . . . . . # O O O . . . . . . . . . . | 1
---------------------------------------
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
White just played at L17. How should Black respond?
(Note: I understand this isn't too difficult. However, it was on IGS
against a 19k*, and I went on to win the game by ~15 points. I was very
pleased with myself.)
--
Ted, 19k on KGS, possibly ~20-21k on IGS
To reply by e-mail, change .spam to .net
Ulrich Gortz
as Patrice Fontaine pointed out to me today, the name "Shodan"
is already used for a similar program (for Apple Macintosh)
that he wrote (you can find it at
http://perso.libertysurf.fr/lecharbonnier/MacA.html ).
I had tried to check if the name is used already, but obviously
not sufficiently carefully. The best solution seems to be
that I rename my program.
The alternative I have in mind is "kyusho" (which is japanese
for "the vital point"). Again, I looked on the web and didn't
find any reference to go-related stuff with that name. But I
would also like to hear if any reader of r.g.g. knows a reason
why I shouldn't use the name "kyusho".
Until the name change will be in effect, I disabled the download
on my web page.
Ulrich
Ulrich Gortz
thank you all for your comments. I still would like to
hear an argument why in my case there are more problems
than with the CD ROM Tesuji Made Easy (which has around
2400 problems from ancient and modern sources).
As for "feeling comfortable" with distributing these
problems: I felt comfortable with it, and still do so,
but a bit less now than before. After all, this feeling
is influenced by the opinion of others.
Ulrich
Bill Spight
> thank you all for your comments. I still would like to
> hear an argument why in my case there are more problems
> than with the CD ROM Tesuji Made Easy (which has around
> 2400 problems from ancient and modern sources).
>
Surely Yutopian or the compilers of "Tesuji Made Easy" could tell about
the copyright issues. :-)
Best,
Bill
John Fairbairn
"Ulrich Gortz" <u...@g0ertz.de> wrote in message
news:s77ae3x...@xfresno.math.ias.edu...
> The alternative I have in mind is "kyusho" (which is japanese
> for "the vital point"). Again, I looked on the web and didn't
> find any reference to go-related stuff with that name. But I
> would also like to hear if any reader of r.g.g. knows a reason
> why I shouldn't use the name "kyusho".
>
The Japanese is actually kyuusho, but I'm curious why you think you need a
Japanese name. What's wrong with English?
-
> "Ulrich Gortz" <u...@g0ertz.de> wrote
>> The alternative I have in mind is "kyusho" (which is japanese
>> for "the vital point"). Again, I looked on the web and didn't
>> find any reference to go-related stuff with that name. But I
>> would also like to hear if any reader of r.g.g. knows a reason
>> why I shouldn't use the name "kyusho".
From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
> The Japanese is actually kyuusho, but I'm curious why you think
> you need a Japanese name. What's wrong with English?
I would suggest that we not go there. :-)
Ulrich Gortz
Hello!
> > The alternative I have in mind is "kyusho" (which is japanese
> > for "the vital point"). Again, I looked on the web and didn't
> > find any reference to go-related stuff with that name. But I
> > would also like to hear if any reader of r.g.g. knows a reason
> > why I shouldn't use the name "kyusho".
> >
> The Japanese is actually kyuusho, but I'm curious why you think you need a
> Japanese name. What's wrong with English?
Thank you for your reply! Of course, in principle nothing is wrong
with an English name, but I just couldn't think of one that
convinced me (I am open for suggestions, though).
Choosing a Japanese name has the advantage, that -
in an English context - it is clear that it is a proper name.
It wouldn't sound good to call the program "The Vital Point" :-)
I also thought of more technical/descriptive names
(maybe "problem trainer" or "gopro" for "go problems"), but
somehow I wasn't too happy with them. Do you think that a
Japanese name is not a good idea?
Of course, I would also like to hear comments or suggestions
from others.
As for kyuusho: you are the expert, so I am sure that this is
the correct word. But in most other places (some go dictionaries
and some martial arts web sites) I found "kyusho" (a quick
Google search gave around 20 hits for kyuusho and around 2800
for kyusho). Does that mean that "kyusho" is an acceptable/
accepted transliteration, too, or would you say that "kyusho"
is just wrong?
Ulrich
The Nose Who Knows
> thank you all for your comments. I still would like to hear an
> argument why in my case there are more problems than with the CD ROM
> Tesuji Made Easy (which has around 2400 problems from ancient and
> modern sources).
Copyright grants the holder exclusive rights on copies of the material
(with certain restrictions). The copyright holder can grant a license
to copy and/or distribute the material to whomever they choose, and
everyone else has only limited rights to copy the material until they,
too, obtain some sort of license to the material.
Have you contacted the publisher of "Tesuji Made Easy" to see what
permissions they have obtained for the material? You may discover that
they, like most publishers, have obtained explicit permission to publish
the material. You should do the same on material you believe to be
copyrighted.
--
\ "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order |
`\ will lose both, and deserve neither." -- Thomas Jefferson, in |
_o__) a letter to Madison |
-
>> "Ulrich Gortz" <u...@g0ertz.de> wrote
>>> The alternative I have in mind is "kyusho" (which is japanese
>>> for "the vital point"). Again, I looked on the web and didn't
>>> find any reference to go-related stuff with that name. But I
>>> would also like to hear if any reader of r.g.g. knows a reason
>>> why I shouldn't use the name "kyusho".
> From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
>> The Japanese is actually kyuusho, but I'm curious why you think
>> you need a Japanese name. What's wrong with English?
jum...@juno.com wrote
> I would suggest that we not go there.
Race Riots in Merrie Ole England:
http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=394770&in_review_text_id=341754
http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=394772&in_review_text_id=341756
Police set for third night of riots
Hundreds of riot police are gearing up for a third night of tension on
the streets of Oldham following a weekend of ferocious racial violence.
Asians 'retaliated against skinheads'
The town has seen some of the worst race-related violence in
Britain for 15 years and police say there will be no scaling
down of its presence on the streets.
Officers from Greater Manchester Police have been criticised by some
members of the local Asian community for their "heavy-handed"
dispersal of Asian youths.
But Assistant Chief Constable Alan Bridge said: "There will be no
scale down tonight."
On Saturday night a 500-strong mob of Asian youths went on a
seven-hour rampage hurling petrol bombs and bricks at police in what
one senior officer described as a night of "ferocity and sheer
carnage".
A total of 15 police officers were injured and 17 people were
arrested. On Sunday night there was further sporadic fighting across
the town as gangs of youths hurled more petrol bombs and erected
burning barricades of tyres and furniture.
Police and council officials said activity by right-wing extremists
had stirred up racial tensions in the town.
There has been a National Front and British National Party presence in
Oldham since April 28, when right-wing extremists attached to Stoke
City Football Club visited the town for the match against Oldham
Athletic FC.
Chief Superintendent Eric Hewitt, who heads the Oldham division of
Greater Manchester Police, said: "We appealed for a banning order on
the National Front's marching but since then they have come along to
Oldham with the express purpose of just being here and walking about
the streets.
"The law quite clearly says that is allowed and indeed we have a duty
to protect them as we do all citizens. "
) Associated Newspapers Ltd., 28 May 2001
================================================================
Asians 'retaliated against skinheads'
Shots were fired in the air by an Asian with a handgun and
bricks were hurled through the window of the house in
Aylesbury where whites were taking refuge.
Said Khan, 23, speaking on behalf those arrested, said the 20 racists
continued to shout taunts even as Asians, trashed the house in Russell
Avenue, on the outskirts of the town in Bucks.
A Thames Valley Police spokesman said 13 Asians and seven white men
were arrested in a massive operation after the riot broke out at
7.30pm last night. They are being questioned about the disturbance.
Mr Khan, who was not arrested, said a gang of Asians gathered on
playing fields yesterday, the day after the youngster was attacked
there, and chased the whites back to the cul-de-sac on a council
estate.
He added: "They were giving it out from their front window. That was
it - the house got trashed. They still kept on chanting 'Combat 18 is
coming for you boys'. The word is that they had moved down from the
north and were having a gathering.
"I've never witnessed anything like this before. Aylesbury is a quiet
town. I don't know if they are going to come back again, or if this
will happen again."
The Mayor of Aylesbury, Raj Khan, said he had heard reports from the
Asian community that the whites were part of a National Front meeting.
He was appealing for calm in order to avoid any repetition of the
scenes of race violence being witnessed in Oldham.
Thames Valley Police have been unable to confirm reports that the
incident was sparked by a National Front meeting. A spokeswoman said:
"We see this very much as a local issue to do with unruly behaviour
more than community tensions. "
) Associated Newspapers Ltd., 28 May 2001
-------------------------------------------------------o
John Fairbairn
> As for kyuusho: you are the expert, so I am sure that this is
> the correct word. But in most other places (some go dictionaries
> and some martial arts web sites) I found "kyusho" (a quick
> Google search gave around 20 hits for kyuusho and around 2800
> for kyusho). Does that mean that "kyusho" is an acceptable/
> accepted transliteration, too, or would you say that "kyusho"
> is just wrong?
I'd say that very, very few English-speaking players would know what the
Japanese for vital point is, so the Japanese name would meaningless to them.
Those who do know probably know some Japanese, in which case the difference
between kyuusho and kyusho could matter. Of course they'd know what you are
trying to say, but if someone pronounced the word in the typical English
way, both vowels would come out long, not just the first one, and the
meaning would then become thintgs like "acute disease", which is some way
off what you intend!
But my bigger question about "why Japanese at all" still awaits a convincing
answer, because it is not just a question of Japanese vs English. Nowadays
Chinese and Korean matter. I'd hazard a guess that most new go players today
would be at least as likely to come into contact with Chinese or Korea
players as with Japanese, and the Koreans in particular are VERY keen to
push their versions of the go vocabulary. I have little idea how it will pan
out, beyond saying that Chinese is likely to lose out because of all those x
and q and zh consonants, and Korean is handicapped by it romanisations. But
I do expect some confusion and I suspect anglicisation (for English
speakers) will become a way out of the morass. The splintering we see in the
martial arts, where westerners end up following one particular Oriental
tradition, seems unlikely in go.
Since the problems you use come from all three major Oriental go nations
plus the West, it seems especially relevant not to put a Japanese bias on
it.
-
>> the correct word. But in most other places (some go dictionaries
>> and some martial arts web sites) I found "kyusho" (a quick
>> Google search gave around 20 hits for kyuusho and around 2800
>> for kyusho). Does that mean that "kyusho" is an acceptable/
>> accepted transliteration, too, or would you say that "kyusho"
>> is just wrong?
From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
> I'd say that very, very few English-speaking players would know
> what the Japanese for vital point is, so the Japanese name would
> meaningless to them.
Why would you suppose it is any more meaningful to the Japanese?
These Go terms are "architecture words," some not in common speech.
> But my bigger question about "why Japanese at all" still awaits a
> convincing answer, because it is not just a question of Japanese
> vs English. Nowadays Chinese and Korean matter. I'd hazard a
> guess that most new go players today would be at least as likely
> to come into contact with Chinese or Korea players as with
> Japanese, and the Koreans in particular are VERY keen to push
> their versions of the go vocabulary. I have little idea how it
> will pan out, beyond saying that Chinese is likely to lose out
> because of all those x and q and zh consonants, and Korean is
> handicapped by it romanisations. But I do expect some confusion
> and I suspect anglicisation (for English speakers) will become a
> way out of the morass. The splintering we see in the martial
> arts, where westerners end up following one particular Oriental
> tradition, seems unlikely in go.
Perhaps this conflict among linguistics and langauges is something
obsessive to the British, who pride themselves to the point of sin
on philology. I will tell you a story which may shock you: after
a period of time and many discussions with Sen Suzuki, 3p, Seattle's
former Go Sensei, I began to realize that for him there was only one
language -- Japanese -- and all other languages were derivatives from
Japanese. My first impression was Sensei was not "properly educated"
in (Western) linguistics. He was a great fan of Native Americans and
the Alaskan land-bridge hypothesis. We visited an ethologist at the
University of Washington concerning linguistic similarities between
Old Japanese and Native American words, who in turn expressed a mild
amusement at Mr. Suzuki's unbridled enthusiasm. During intervening
years since 1988, I have become more appreciative of Sensei's remarks
which at times were difficult to tolerate on their initial audition.
It turns out that many Koreans and Chinese share a similar sense
of (ethnocentric) identity, concerning a "base" or "root" in their
own native languages, and viewing all others as extensions and/or
derivatives. Perhaps Western notions that lay claim to cross-cultural
anthropology are instead an instance of our own schizophrenia. There
is no "value-free science" nor a privileged position from which one
may arbitrate questions of philology in the absolute, so it may be
not entirely incorrect to assert an origin to one's perspective, as
any origin would be equivalently arbitrary to any other.
If Go is to be your "overarching model" (overview hypothesis) for
linguistics itself (or perhaps pre-linguistics), then views concerned
with relationships among languages, and terms of language, may stem
from one's naive notions about Go: whether it is a battle-or-not,
whether there might be a struggle of love over hatred, and so forth.
Particular terms employed to describe "Go architecture" are among the
least of player concerns who understand Go as international sports.
> Since the problems you use come from all three major Oriental go
> nations plus the West, it seems especially relevant not to put a
> Japanese bias on it.
In the long run it doesn't matter, since in the Japanese Zen
tradition bias is identical to non-bias. Instead "bias" here may
concerns British predilections to assert domination over Asians.
If you can use MediaPlayer (WMP) then in the browser find this:
http://www.artbell.com/topics0401.html
and down the page the interview with Father Malachi Martin (10/18/96)
rebroadcasted on 4/21/01. The actual link for the audio stream is:
- regards
- jb
peter zandveld
Chinese, contain problems
copied from older sources. 'rescue and capture' for example contains two
problems also in 'graded go
problems for beginners'. Both writers probably copied them from ancient
sources, neither bothered to
change colour or orientation. This is apparently standard practice.
The big difference of a book and an electronic collection is that a
professional has connected his
name with the collection (including solutions) as a kind of quality
guarantee.
By the way: electronic collections are not a serious competitor to books:
Many players associate
computers with work and do not want to spend their free time behind a
screen.
--
peter zandveld
schaak en go winkel het paard
pa...@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~paard
peter zandveld
My guess is the author of the CD did refer to ancient and modern collections
to say: buy this CD because these are good problems.
If I would publish a problem collection and claim the problems were original
compositions by Peter Zandveld I would sell none. (especially after this
weekend)
Anyway neither you nor the maker of the tesuji CD know whom to ask
permission to
use the problems. You could have avoided all the fuss by claiming the
problems were
from a book you inherited from your great grand mother who was a daugther of
Korschelt or so.
Ulrich Gortz
Hello,
> > As for kyuusho: you are the expert, so I am sure that this is
> > the correct word. But in most other places (some go dictionaries [...]
> I'd say that very, very few English-speaking players would know what the
> Japanese for vital point is, so the Japanese name would meaningless to them.
> Those who do know probably know some Japanese, in which case the difference
> between kyuusho and kyusho could matter. [...] like "acute disease", which
> is some way off what you intend!
Thank you for the explanation.
> But my bigger question about "why Japanese at all" still awaits a convincing
> answer, because it is not just a question of Japanese vs English. Nowadays
> Chinese and Korean matter. I'd hazard a guess that most new go players today
> would be at least as likely to come into contact with Chinese or Korea
> players as with Japanese, and the Koreans in particular are VERY keen to
> push their versions of the go vocabulary.
I agree that this is a problem, and I don't have a good answer to
the Japanese vs. Chinese/Korean question. (Of course, the reason
why I chose Japanese is that I myself am more familiar with the
Japanese terminology; and it wouldn't be a good idea to have three
names instead of one, I guess.)
Well, I'll think about it some more ... but on the other hand I
wouldn't like to delay this much longer. Where are everybody's
suggestions for a new name? :-)
Ulrich
Michael Alford
>Well, I'll think about it some more ... but on the other hand I
>wouldn't like to delay this much longer. Where are everybody's
>suggestions for a new name? :-)
>
>Ulrich
What's the Dutch for vital point? :)
Ulrich Gortz
"peter zandveld" <zand...@mep.tno.nl> writes:
> I agree you did exactly the same thing as the composer of the tesuji CD.
> My guess is the author of the CD did refer to ancient and modern collections
> to say: buy this CD because these are good problems.
> If I would publish a problem collection and claim the problems were original
> compositions by Peter Zandveld I would sell none. (especially after this
> weekend)
>
> Anyway neither you nor the maker of the tesuji CD know whom to ask
> permission to use the problems. You could have avoided all the fuss
> by claiming the problems were from a book you inherited from your
> great grand mother who was a daugther of Korschelt or so.
Thank you very much for these remarks. They confirm what I thought.
Some others remarked that the people compiling Tesuji Made Easy
might have asked the publishers of their sources if taking some
problems is ok. For all I know, this is possible, but in the
documentation of the CD ROM I didn't find anything like
"... these problems are taken with friendly permission
from ..." which I somehow would have expected.
Anyway, I realized that some people object to me taking problems
from recent books, and that this is an obstacle for the propagation
of the program, whatever the legal situation or my opinion
of the ethical situation may be. And since the problems coming
with the program are just there to show how it works, I decided
that I will replace the collection by a collection of problems
which I either composed by my own (those will be relatively easy
and "standard" ...) or which I took from classical sources.
Maybe at some time I will be able to check the copyright status
with the publishers of the sources of the original collection,
and will then put it on my website again.
If anybody has recommendations for freely distributable problems
on the web, I also would be glad to hear them.
Ulrich
James Acres
You make some really good points John -- but I'm not sure that I agree that
anglicization is what will happen. The overwhelming majority of english
literature uses Japanese vocabulary. Most Westerners are also familiar already
with the Japanese terms. Unless the player base grows very quickly, that
installed user base will tend to preserve Japanese vocab.
I think the die was probably cast for Japanese vocab use in the beginning --
when the game became known as 'go' instead of 'weiqi' or 'baduk' in the west.
In article <991127780.526.0....@news.demon.co.uk>, John Fairbairn
says...
John Fairbairn
"James Acres" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:7LSQ6.4233$rn5.2...@www.newsranger.com...
>
> You make some really good points John -- but I'm not sure that I agree
that
> anglicization is what will happen. The overwhelming majority of english
> literature uses Japanese vocabulary. Most Westerners are also familiar
already
> with the Japanese terms. Unless the player base grows very quickly, that
> installed user base will tend to preserve Japanese vocab.
I'm strongly inclined to agree in the short term and even the medium term.
The easy (if mangled) pronunciation of Japanese terms is almost as strong a
point as being first. But the difficult part to assess is how active the
Koreans are likely to be. My MSO colleague Charles Matthews may be able to
judge the mood better, as he has been in regular contact with the KBA, but I
have a feeling that "Jungseok in our time" is meant to be the thin end of a
wedge. I even feel that pro help from the KBA may even depend on how well we
take to Koreanisation, though of course they would never be so crass as to
say so.
Now is maybe the time for a budding entrepreneur to register the name Dansoo
for the next generation of Atari games!
I wonder whether acceptance of Korean terms may take a leap forward once
someone finds a way to explain haengma properly to a western audience (I
mean way above the level of Janice Kim's books). This could make such a
significant contribution to the strength of western players that they would
gratefully lap up Korean terms in return :)
Imagine that does happen. Imagine that the servers in China finally do take
over and Chinese terms leak in from there. Accept the old Japanese terms are
here to stay. We players in the west would then be faced with using terms
from three foreign languages plus our own. We can handle that easily
provided the terms are discrete. But I am curious what will happen when (if)
terms like joseki and jungseok or atari and dansoo become concurrent.
Because there are so few go players in the west, most of us have at least at
the back of our minds the need to teach new players. As soon as you start
thinking about teaching, you try to cut out the bits that confuse beginners.
So you then try to simplify the vocabulary. Maybe that means anglicisation,
or dutchification, or whatever. Or we all become polyglots. I'll happily go
with the flow, but to do that I need to know which way the flow is going.
One possibly significant change is that Richard Bozulich and John Power have
decided to follow me in using McCune-Reischauer for Korean. You may have
seen this in the latest Go World, and John tells me it will be followed in
the new edition of the Go Almanac, too.
Robert Jasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:
> But the difficult part to assess is how active the
> Koreans are likely to be. My MSO colleague Charles Matthews may be able to
> judge the mood better, as he has been in regular contact with the KBA, but I
> have a feeling that "Jungseok in our time" is meant to be the thin end of a
> wedge. I even feel that pro help from the KBA may even depend on how well we
> take to Koreanisation, though of course they would never be so crass as to
> say so.
Judging from ICOB 2001, the Koreans will be rather active in
spreading go outside Asia. OC, it will be somehow similar to
the Japanese, who have only some pros that actually are
motivated and have time to come to the West or use media for
spreading go. However, all the Koreans I have seen during the
conference are very motivated and dedicated.
> I wonder whether acceptance of Korean terms may take a leap forward once
> someone finds a way to explain haengma properly to a western audience
Charles has told me a short description that I find rather
convincing, provided he has grasped the concept correctly:
Haengma is the efficient development of stones related to
each other so as to maximize the value of their directed
[in the Kajiwara sense of direction of play], global,
strategic embedding.
IOW, haengma is the good development of shape at both a
local and a global scale.
> (I
> mean way above the level of Janice Kim's books). This could make such a
> significant contribution to the strength of western players that they would
> gratefully lap up Korean terms in return :)
Somehow the concept reminds me of the Japanese "natural flow
of the game's moves" and the pros' praise of this concept. No
doubt, understanding either at a high level would be of some
advantage:) After I will have read some of the Korean haengma
books, I will see how much I might have understood then...
> But I am curious what will happen when (if)
> terms like joseki and jungseok or atari and dansoo become concurrent.
It is tough to learn a lot of further terms, but given the
current practice of many Asian author's to stick to a lot
of Asian terms in English books one has little chance but
learn more and more of them.
> I'll happily go
> with the flow, but to do that I need to know which way the flow is going.
I have no idea but I try to use as many English terms as anyhow
reasonably possible. E.g. tenuki is superfluous in English, so
I do not use it in books. Virtually I use only well known
foreign (Japanese) terms like ko or seki. Even this I do
translate to coexistence if the context demands it (like in a
FAQ).
--
robert jasiek
The Nose Who Knows
> Since the problems you use come from all three major Oriental go
> nations plus the West, it seems especially relevant not to put a
> Japanese bias on it.
What information do people have on the Go-playing population (gross or per
capita) in other Oriental countries? I was under the impression that
Taiwan was also a Go hot spot. Any others? How far down the list do we
get before the European and American populations are on a par?
--
\ "Prediction is very hard... especially when it's about the |
`\ future." -- Yogi Berra |
_o__) |
The Nose Who Knows
> followed in the new edition of the Go Almanac, too.
Where can we get information on the new edition? Who will publish it,
what is its expected release date, what changes have been made?
--
\ "Laugh and the world laughs with you; snore and you sleep |
`\ alone." -- Anonymous |
John Fairbairn
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:3B1424ED...@snafu.de...
>
>
> John Fairbairn wrote:
> > I wonder whether acceptance of Korean terms may take a leap forward once
> > someone finds a way to explain haengma properly to a western audience
>
> Charles has told me a short description that I find rather
> convincing, provided he has grasped the concept correctly:
> Haengma is the efficient development of stones related to
> each other so as to maximize the value of their directed
> [in the Kajiwara sense of direction of play], global,
> strategic embedding.
>
> IOW, haengma is the good development of shape at both a
> local and a global scale.
>
> of the game's moves" and the pros' praise of this concept. No
> doubt, understanding either at a high level would be of some
> advantage:) After I will have read some of the Korean haengma
> books, I will see how much I might have understood then...
>
Unless Charles's thinking has moved on since we last discussed this, I think
he still has some grave reservations. Both he and I have tried
unsuccessfully to pin down Koreans on this. The nearest I got, which is
similar to what you say above, was to get a 6-dan Korean who knows Japanese
to agree it was the same as suji. But he later backtracked a bit and tried
to put nuances on it. I thought at the time he was perhaps defending Korea's
national honour, but I now have the rather large Korean dictionary of
haengma at my bedside, and when I can keep my eyes open long enough to read
a bit, I have to admit the Koreans do at least organise the subject rather
differently from the Japanese.
One thing is plain (to go back to my old hobby horse): the Korean concept,
like suji, is dynamic (haeng means moving) and what I have noticed over the
years is that when the related concepts of suji and katachi are discussed,
the Orientals emphasise the dynamic (suji) whereas westerners emphasise the
static (katachi). I have long wondered whether this is a self-imposed
handicap by westerners (allied to the errors of thinking ponnuki means a
diamond shape, tesuji a brilliant move, etc) - indeed, is this the single
biggest difference between east and west in go?
James Davies recently mentioned to me that he has become increasingly aware
of the dynamic nature of the voabulary of Japanese game commentaries,
related often to samurai tales.
John Fairbairn
"The Nose Who Knows" <bignose-h...@and-zip-does-too.com.au> wrote in
message news:slrn9h8d34.nem.b...@zipperii.zip.com.au...
> On Tue, 29 May 2001 10:16:39 +0100, John Fairbairn wrote:
> > Since the problems you use come from all three major Oriental go
> > nations plus the West, it seems especially relevant not to put a
> > Japanese bias on it.
>
> What information do people have on the Go-playing population (gross or per
> capita) in other Oriental countries? I was under the impression that
> Taiwan was also a Go hot spot. Any others? How far down the list do we
> get before the European and American populations are on a par?
>
overseas to earn a living. There is some detail on this and also on go
populations somewhere on the MSO site, which is still up (though not
running).
-
> "James Acres" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote
>> You make some really good points John -- but I'm not sure that
>> I agree that anglicization is what will happen. The overwhelming
>> majority of english literature uses Japanese vocabulary. Most
>> Westerners are also familiar already with the Japanese terms.
>> Unless the player base grows very quickly, that installed user
>> base will tend to preserve Japanese vocab.
From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
> ... As soon as you start thinking about teaching, you try to cut
> out the bits that confuse beginners. So you then try to simplify
> the vocabulary. Maybe that means anglicisation, or dutchification,
> or whatever. Or we all become polyglots. I'll happily go with the
> flow, but to do that I need to know which way the flow is going.
Only reluctantly do I offer remarks. We are well aware of
your "teaching" contributions to Go, on this newsgroup and in
publications, however your presumptions to a "standardization"
out there is likely to be an unwarranted pie-in-the-sky. The
key phrase there was "...we all become..." which was a tribalist
Britishification, or rather, your insular manner of survival there
on a little island being attacked from all sides through history.
The officious "flow" of which you speak, however, might instead be
diversity flow but not consensus, nor even unanimity. You presume
there is something "correct" in speech descriptions toward which
all would gravitate, yet that presumption can occur only if you
deny an internationalism while we are concurrently aware how the
British were major proponents of globalism. What do you mean to
suggest by assuming that globalism would not have internationalism?
How long must players remain "beginners" in the sense of not
being exposed to the "raw power" of a teaching professional at Go?
There are only 361-points involved here, which seems simple enough.
How they choose to describe for themselves what they see, even at
an early age, is not necessarily something you must prescribe. Is
it necessary that English achieve linguistic superiority? What is
any consequence, "according to a Martian observor," of the particular
language humans select to convey the terms of their state-of-affairs?
Britain had in a previous era offered P.A.M.Dirac's insights on
rheology (the nature of flows). If electrons are travelling in one
direction then "the electron holes" are travelling oppositely, and
then Dirac spoke of particles and anti-particles (still a successful
theory description). Many are developing a curiosity concerning why
Britain today has been slipping intellectually. Consider the fact
of the BGA's non-communicative stance. I would suggest that British
are inviting race riots and forms of terrorism by their attitudes.
There is a serious biochemical pollution occuring, from poisons
in your environment and perhaps radiation, throughout Europe, which
is not necessarily being helped by desires for genetic engineering.
Greycat Sharpclaw
There is an allegation that jum...@juno.com (-) wrote:
[snip]
And what does this have to do with go?
-
From: theGr...@nospam.eartlink.net (Greycat Sharpclaw)
> And what does this have to do with go?
As par for the course on this newsgroup, you had deleted the
prior explanatory remarks which would have provided you an answer.
(Quite typical, unfortunately). We had the following query:
> From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
>> What's wrong with English?
I will not do your homework for you, in adding 2 plus 2.
Barry Phease
<john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> What information do people have on the Go-playing population (gross or per
>> capita) in other Oriental countries? I was under the impression that
>> Taiwan was also a Go hot spot. Any others? How far down the list do we
>> get before the European and American populations are on a par?
>>
>Taiwan is, in my view, not quite there yet. The top players still have to go
>overseas to earn a living. There is some detail on this and also on go
>populations somewhere on the MSO site, which is still up (though not
>running).
I am not sure what you mean by "not there yet". It is possible for
professionals to earn a living in Taiwan, but most of their income
comes from teaching, rather than tournaments. The reason that top
players go elsewhere is more to get a higher standard of competition.
You could say that this lack of a very high level of game justifies
your statement.
OTOH the percentage of the population that plays in Taiwan approaches
that of the 3 powerhouses. There is also significant state support
and sponsorship for increasing the level of the game. The same is
true of North Korea.
Outside of these places everywhere else is closer to the levels in
Europe or America. Singapore would probably be the next Asian country
on the list.
wysi
etc.)? I'm going there sometime next year on a short teaching assignment.
wysi
"Barry Phease" <bar...@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3b14514c...@news.dun.ihug.co.nz...
James Acres
You make some really good points John -- but I'm not sure that I agree that
anglicization is what will happen. The overwhelming majority of english
literature uses Japanese vocabulary. Most Westerners are also familiar already
with the Japanese terms. Unless the player base grows very quickly, that
installed user base will tend to preserve Japanese vocab.
I think the die was probably cast for Japanese vocab use in the beginning --
when the game became known as 'go' instead of 'weiqi' or 'baduk' in the west.
In article <991127780.526.0....@news.demon.co.uk>, John Fairbairn
says...
>
>
Ted S.
wrote in <991180642.21305.0...@news.demon.co.uk>:
<http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/orient/go/special/census.html>
which is active currently.
Shame on you, however, for referring to the Korean players as 'almost all
teeny-boppers and under'. I haven't even hit 30, and you're making me
feel so old. :-)
--
Ted, approx. negative-19 dan
To reply by e-mail, change .spam to .net
Gary Odom
If you're outside the U.S., don't try this at home. ;)
I did some research today and consulted our top copyright attorney.
Attorneys will almost always have a shade-of-gray answer,
as did this one, but he had a difficult time imagining that a
game board position could possibly be copyrighted,
and felt more strongly that a sequence had scant hope of entitlement
to copyright protection.
I researched court cases for precedence regarding
copyright subject matter, and found nothing on-point,
meaning that no similar copyright case was found.
I did not find many cases that were even close
(so it was not an instance of not finding anything;
I'm practiced at digging out litigation cases).
Copyright covers only expression, not an idea.
Basically, copyright is for "original work of authorship",
which a game board position or game sequence is not.
Yes, I heard and considered some interesting arguments
on this, particularly a composed board position.
I don't think it washes to copyright protection in the U.S.
A publisher may tell you another story.
They have commercial interests to protect; understandable.
And Go book publishers aren't copyright attorneys or
intellectual property law practitioners.
I had one publisher make an attempt to stop my publishing
Kogo's Joseki Dictionary.
They wisely backed off when I read them the riot act.
(No, it doesn't matter who the publisher was; we all make mistakes.
I consider this incident to be an honest if heavy-handed mistake.)
The threat of litigation scares a lot of people,
mostly because they don't know the law, the potential cost,
and application of the law seems so arbitrary.
(Even lawyers are frightened of the arbitrary application
of the law.)
Those are good reasons,
which is why I advised in an earlier missive
not to go outside what you're comfortable with:
it's not worth the lost sleep.
I'll believe that game records or game board positions per se
(not some expression of them) are copyrightable
when I get some verifiable proof. Until then,
based on somewhat considerable evidence and legal
opinion to the contrary, I don't think so.
Gary Odom
This isn't legal advice; it's an informed opinion. :)
"Ulrich Gortz" <u...@g0ertz.de> wrote in message
news:s77ofsc...@xfresno.math.ias.edu...
-
From: "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com>
> The threat of litigation scares a lot of people,
> mostly because they don't know the law, the potential cost,
> and application of the law seems so arbitrary.
> (Even lawyers are frightened of the arbitrary application
> of the law.)
> Those are good reasons,
> which is why I advised in an earlier missive
> not to go outside what you're comfortable with:
> it's not worth the lost sleep.
Prior to that your remarks were well-reasoned for the most part,
but now you're descending into "giving out (legal) advice" again.
If one never exercises rights by taking risks, then rights disappear.
If "the truth is out there," rather than inside, then you won't find it.
The prophet Jeremiah said "Fear only the Lord" (not the law).
> I'll believe that game records or game board positions per se
> (not some expression of them) are copyrightable
> when I get some verifiable proof. Until then,
> based on somewhat considerable evidence and legal
> opinion to the contrary, I don't think so.
Yet your "belief" is nothing, since you suggest the possibility
of obtaining proof (albeit improbable) that disproves your belief.
Game commentaries are copyrightable. Arrangements and bibliographies
are copyrightable to some degree. What's involved here concerns the
remuneration for one's (artistic) labor, and basic human respect for
"common sense" that says stealing and theft should not be rewarded.
Broadcast of a game, to include the succession of game positions, is
also copyrightable. NKB/Panda has verified this on occasion: during
a pro game they deliberately broadcast an incorrect move to determine
if their signal is being ripped off by another Go Server.
> This isn't legal advice; it's an informed opinion. :)
It becomes "legal advice" when you encourage behavior either for
or against issues that pertain to potential legal actions or inactions.
You're calling an apple an orange even if it's a rose by another name.
Robert Jasiek
The Nose Who Knows wrote:
> What information do people have on the Go-playing population
During my recent stay in Korea I have got the following
rough statements:
Number of amateur 5d (new Korean amateur ranking): 10,000
Number of amateur 6d (won 1 national tournament) : 100
Number of amateur 7d (won 3 national tournaments): 20
Amateur 5d ranges from German 5d to former Korean 1k.
Japanese figures have been said to be similar, if the Korean
ranking scale were used. I have no idea about Chinese figures.
Alexandr Dinerchtein EU 7d is called Korean amateur 6d because
winning the title European Champion at least once is
tolerated as counting like a Korean national tournament.
He says that there are 60 amateurs stronger than him in
Korea. Of them ca. 25 tend to pop up in one particular club.
Most of them are young inseis.
--
robert jasiek
Charles Matthews
Robert Jasiek wrote
> Charles has told me a short description that I find rather
> convincing, provided he has grasped the concept correctly:
> Haengma is the efficient development of stones related to
> each other so as to maximize the value of their directed
> [in the Kajiwara sense of direction of play], global,
> strategic embedding.
>
> IOW, haengma is the good development of shape at both a
> local and a global scale.
I think this is OK as a start. Haengma is perhaps an "idiom" or way of
thinking more than a truly fresh concept.
Charles
Charles Matthews
John Fairbairn wrote
> One thing is plain (to go back to my old hobby horse): the Korean concept,
> like suji, is dynamic (haeng means moving) and what I have noticed over
the
> years is that when the related concepts of suji and katachi are discussed,
> the Orientals emphasise the dynamic (suji) whereas westerners emphasise
the
> static (katachi). I have long wondered whether this is a self-imposed
> handicap by westerners (allied to the errors of thinking ponnuki means a
> diamond shape, tesuji a brilliant move, etc) - indeed, is this the single
> biggest difference between east and west in go?
I doubt it. What about the difference between two "Suzuki methods" - learn
the violin with your mother as soon as you can hold one, learn (or try to)
the Large Joseki Dictionary? The majority of western players still learn as
adults, and are essentially self-taught, lacking a supple quality in their
play and relying too much on set patterns of one kind or other. No one's
fault, but I hope, after one generation of serious players in Europe, for
better expository writing for the next one (in particular integrating the
type of point John makes).
Charles
Charles Matthews
John Fairbairn wrote
> "James Acres" wrote
> >
> > You make some really good points John -- but I'm not sure that I agree
> that
> > anglicization is what will happen. The overwhelming majority of english
> > literature uses Japanese vocabulary. Most Westerners are also familiar
> already
> > with the Japanese terms. Unless the player base grows very quickly,
that
> > installed user base will tend to preserve Japanese vocab.
>
> I'm strongly inclined to agree in the short term and even the medium term.
> The easy (if mangled) pronunciation of Japanese terms is almost as strong
a
> point as being first. But the difficult part to assess is how active the
> Koreans are likely to be. My MSO colleague Charles Matthews may be able to
> judge the mood better, as he has been in regular contact with the KBA, but
I
> have a feeling that "Jungseok in our time" is meant to be the thin end of
a
> wedge.
I think, from the reaction to my conference talk, they'd be happy to use
English terms if those could be standardised. Koreans generally seem amazed
at a foreigner who can say "kamsa hamnida" (thank you), let alone learn
hangul; so I doubt there's any assumption that go players will master Korean
terms.
Charles
Yerry Felix
> One possibly significant change is that Richard Bozulich and John Power have
> decided to follow me in using McCune-Reischauer for Korean. You may have
> seen this in the latest Go World, and John tells me it will be followed in
> the new edition of the Go Almanac, too.
What is McCune-Reischauer?
1i
--
peter zandveld
Bozulich, about it
on the telephone monday the 28th of may 2001. Though our discussion was
mainly about the business side I
have the following update:
Almost all sections are expanded and/or improved
It will contain among others a very extensive section on go-terms
It will contain coloured illustrations
It is planned to go to the printer around this weekend. it should be
in the USA and Europe before the go congresses.
holigor
Who is considered a go player? A person that knows the rules? A person
who played a game or two? A social player?
And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the players on
IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic.
Stephen Tavener
>This isn't legal advice; it's an informed opinion. :)
>This applies to U.S. copyright law.
>If you're outside the U.S., don't try this at home. ;)
So, another not-legal-advice-but-an-informed opinion, this time from
England. I'm not an IP lawyer, but my partner is...
- As noted, there is no copyright in an idea, only in the expression of
that idea.
- Copyright exists as soon as the idea is 'fixed', e.g. committed to
paper.
A go problem *could* qualify as the expression of an idea. There need
not be a sequence of moves leading up to a go position, so I don't think
the argument of it being a process holds water. Arguably, the 'idea' is
the sequence of moves required to solve the puzzle. Another position
which required the same sequence of moves would not be covered. As Gary
points out, it looks like this has not been tested in court, and
ultimately anything I, Gary, or even an expert IP lawyer, says is just
opinion until ruled upon by a judge.
One of the important factors of establishing copyright violation is ...
um... copying. If two people arrive independently at the same work,
there is no violation. Indeed, both may have copyright over the same
work(!). However, if one copies from the other, even with minor changes
("a substantial taking"), there *is* a violation. Messy to prove, of
course. Note: copying is not the same as looking at the solution of the
problem, then making up a new problem which requires the same sequence
of moves. That would be OK...
- Note that copyright exists until about 70 years after the death of the
author in the UK (with one exception: Peter Pan). After that, any works
may be copied freely. (Note: if someone takes old material and makes
changes, the changes have copyright, even though the original material
does not.)
Aside from the copyright issue of the individual puzzles, there are
other rights that apply to a collection. The act of compiling a book of
puzzles gives you database rights - so long as you have exercised skill
and judgement in compiling the puzzles. So, taking a significant number
of puzzles from a single source will also violate the author's IP
rights. Note that doesn't stop you from having rights over your
collection, even if you violate the rights of someone else(!).
TTFN,
Stephen
--
Stephen Tavener | There is no such thing
Games bought,sold,traded,played | as "just a cat"
http://www.scat.demon.co.uk/ | - Tanya Huff
Vesa Laatikainen
Yerry Felix wrote:
> "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> > One possibly significant change is that Richard Bozulich and John Power have
> > decided to follow me in using McCune-Reischauer for Korean. You may have
It is quite a distinctive search criteria in the web, for example:
http://www.google.com/search?q=McCune-Reischauer&btnG=Google+Search
Vesa
-
From: hol...@hotmail.com (holigor)
> Who is considered a go player? A person that knows the rules?
> A person who played a game or two? A social player?
A person is considered a Go Player who answers "yes" to this
question: Are you a Go Player?
It is not necessary to "know" the rules of Go to be a Player.
Depending on your interpretation of these, the "actual rules" may
be simple or extremely complicated.
I would hope that "social players" are not to be excluded.
> And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the
> players on IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic.
Rank-obsessions are far more pathetic than one's actual rank.
nates
> What's the Dutch for vital point? :)
i think it's Van Gogh.
- nate
peter zandveld
>>Western Europe has the next highest total - 150,000. Germany leads with
46,000, Britain has 35,000, the >>Netherlands 30,000 (the Korea of Europe!)
and France 20,000. Since the membership of the British Go >>Assocation is
well below the 1,000 mark, and regular tournament players are only a
fraction of the membership, >>the figure of 35,000 needs to be justified.
My guess is that France is doing better than the Netherlands and Britain at
the moment. The order of magnitude
of these numbers is correct only if you count very, very, VERY casual
players in.
20 years ago we were speaking about the 'Dutch disease' meaning: "too many
people without a job living
on welfare and enjoying it" (but playing go), now we have an other problem:
labour shortage, everybody
busy to make money, etc.(no time to play go) We need a nice, deep, long
recession to regain momentum
of our go development.
Milton N. Bradley
- snip -
> We need a nice, deep, long
> recession to regain momentum
> of our go development.
> --
> peter zandveld
> schaak en go winkel het paard
> pa...@xs4all.nl
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~paard
Peter:
Be careful of what you wish for!!!!!
Milt
--
"Better to light one small candle than to curse the darkness."
Visit my web page at http://newyork.villageworld.com/users/bradleym/
Michael Alford
: O
Don't know about that, but I did get a nice laugh from Winnie Widdi Weiqi
Gary Odom
The organization of a collection may be copyrightable,
even if the material the collection is comprised of is not.
Confining the discussion to legal Go board positions,
it would be very problematic to argue unique
authorship, especially of a game thousands of years old.
Puzzles (not Go problems) are, I think, a substantially different matter.
Stephen seems to lump them together; I would not.
Opinion: that's all this could ever be. Even judges get overturned.
Gary Odom
"Stephen Tavener" <ste...@scat.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xb7EukB3...@scat.demon.co.uk...
-
From: "Gary Odom" <ko...@teleport.com>
> Stephen makes a good point about collections.
> The organization of a collection may be copyrightable,
> even if the material the collection is comprised of is not.
Your "lawyer" friend should have been able to tell you that.
> Confining the discussion to legal Go board positions,
> it would be very problematic to argue unique
> authorship, especially of a game thousands of years old.
A moot point, since copyrights are only about 70 to 95 years.
> Puzzles (not Go problems) are, I think, a substantially different
> matter. Stephen seems to lump them together; I would not.
Don't fear enlightening the world about that specific difference.
> Opinion: that's all this could ever be. Even judges get overturned.
Indeed, perhaps by other judges.
holigor
> From: hol...@hotmail.com (holigor)
> > Who is considered a go player? A person that knows the rules?
> > A person who played a game or two? A social player?
>
>
> A person is considered a Go Player who answers "yes" to this
> question: Are you a Go Player?
Do you think that this is really how they collected their data?
Numbers look suspiciously high.
>
> It is not necessary to "know" the rules of Go to be a Player.
> Depending on your interpretation of these, the "actual rules" may
> be simple or extremely complicated.
>
Ok, my English is not good. Sould I have said "familiar with the
rules"?
> I would hope that "social players" are not to be excluded.
>
>
>
>
>
> > And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the
> > players on IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic.
>
>
> Rank-obsessions are far more pathetic than one's actual rank.
>
It's not a rank obsession. 2k would not satisfy me as well. You don't
really know what this game is about at that level too. I know that I
play with the guys that make a lot of mistakes which I cannot
recognize as such. That's sad.
Just the notion of being in the dumber half is a little bit
humiliating.
-
> From: hol...@hotmail.com (holigor)
>>> Who is considered a go player? A person that knows the rules?
>>> A person who played a game or two? A social player?
> jum...@juno.com (-) wrote in message
>> A person is considered a Go Player who answers "yes" to this
>> question: Are you a Go Player?
From: hol...@hotmail.com (holigor)
> Do you think that this is really how they collected their data?
> Numbers look suspiciously high.
Good point. Maybe they went about counting yellow triangles
and pink swastikas. Most things that look "high" tend to be
suspicious. Perhaps those large numbers could measure breadth or
width, or depth instead?
>> It is not necessary to "know" the rules of Go to be a Player.
>> Depending on your interpretation of these, the "actual rules" may
>> be simple or extremely complicated.
> Ok, my English is not good. Sould I have said "familiar with the
> rules"?
I'm not sure what you should have said. Nor am I sure what
you should say now. Your level of English isn't relevant to me.
>> I would hope that "social players" are not to be excluded.
>>> And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the
>>> players on IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic.
>> Rank-obsessions are far more pathetic than one's actual rank.
> It's not a rank obsession. 2k would not satisfy me as well. You don't
> really know what this game is about at that level too. I know that I
> play with the guys that make a lot of mistakes which I cannot
> recognize as such. That's sad.
You're returning again to questions of what somebody really "knows"
after you had considered using the word "familiar" instead. Is it sad
that you cannot detect mistakes, or are you saddened by the fact that
your playing partners make them? Perhaps you could instead be grateful
for the fact of finding playing partners, maybe even according them a
membership in the large numbers that appear suspiciously "high" to you.
> Just the notion of being in the dumber half is a little bit humiliating
It would be a mistake to associate the -results- of Go with levels
of smartness or dumbness. We've all encountered the sense that Go
can at times be boring when you have a "won" game and the opponent
insists on delaying a resignation. I wouldn't suppose THAT experience
conducive to improvements for one's intelligence. Instead there may
be the primary correlation with learning ability and toleration for Go
or perhaps cultivation of tolerance assisting general learning ability.
- regards
- jb
Milton N. Bradley
- snip -
> It's not a rank obsession. 2k would not satisfy me as well. You don't
> really know what this game is about at that level too. I know that I
> play with the guys that make a lot of mistakes which I cannot
> recognize as such. That's sad.
>
> Just the notion of being in the dumber half is a little bit
> humiliating.
"The dumber half" of those who haven't given up! But compared with the population at
large, you are probably *at least* in the upper 5 - 10%, and perhaps even in the upper
1-2 %!!
I'm aware that's small consolation, but it should ease your psychic pain a bit!
peter zandveld
> who played a game or two? A social player?
>
> And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the players on
> IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic
You are within the best 1%
--
peter zandveld
schaak en go winkel het paard
pa...@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~paard
.
peter zandveld
national association. It is reasonable to guess that perhaps one in 10
people
who play more than once a year a game of go are member of a national
organisation, and that 1 in 50 of who has played at some time go is member.
The margin of error is a factor 3 or so.
You can also look at number of books sold. For example in Holland 4 books
have been marketed sold to the public in general bookstores, though many at
a discount (sale):
go voor beginners, iwamoto (3 printings)
Frank Janssens' book (1 printing)
Nihon kiin introduction (translated by max Rebattu, 1 printing)
Leo Vie's book (at least 1 printing)
Each printing is at least 3000 copies, so about 15000 books in Dutch are
floating around in Holland.
Than go sets:
Jumbo and Ravensburger have been marketing go sets for 10 to 20 years. They
do not bother to
sell 100's per year, they think in 1000's. So there are also several times
10.000 sets around.
Michael Alford
> From: hol...@hotmail.com (holigor)
> And what is the strength of the average player? Half of the
> players on IGS are stronger than 2k, which makes my 5k* pathetic.
I am curious, how did you come up with half the players on IGS are stronger
than 2k?
Sergio Parimbelli
characters into our alphabet, probably the best one for foreigners.
Quote from a book about Korean: "The perception by Koreans of sound
production by non-Korenas using the McCune-Reischauer was much better
than that of other romanization systems."
Sergio Parimbelli
Vesa Laatikainen schrieb:
The Nuclear Marine
"Ted S." wrote:
> Well, since we're talking about problems that come up 'accidentally' in the
> course of a game, I'll post one. Technically, it's a composed problem, in
> that it didn't actually come up in the game. White saw the proper Black
> response, and so didn't play this variation. The interesting thing is, I
> only saw the proper response after the game, and would have gone wrong at
> the time had white actually tried it. :-)
>
> If I hold any of the copyright for this nominally composed problem, I'm
> allowing any or all of you on this group to use this problem free of charge
> in a problem collection. Isn't that generous of me? ;-)
>
> A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
> ---------------------------------------
> 19 | . . # . . . . . . . . . # . . . # # . | 19
> 18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
> 17 | . O # # O # O O # O O # O # # # O O O | 17
> 16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
> 15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
> 14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
> 13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
> 12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
> 11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
> 10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
> 9 | O O O # . . O . . . O # . . . # # # # | 9
> 8 | O # O O . O . . . O # # . . . . . . . | 8
> 7 | O # O O O . . O O # . . . . . # . . . | 7
> 6 | # # # O # O O . O # . # # . # . # # # | 6
> 5 | . . # # # O # O O # # O O # # # O O # | 5
> 4 | . . # , # O # # O # O . . O # O . O # | 4
> 3 | . . . . # # . # # O . O . O O . O . O | 3
> 2 | . . . . . . # # O O . . . . . . . . . | 2
> 1 | . . . . . # O O O . . . . . . . . . . | 1
> ---------------------------------------
> A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
>
> White just played at L17. How should Black respond?
>
Though I'm only 25k on IGS I'll say
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . 7 5 1 # 3 2 6 # # 4 | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # O O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
White plays elsewhere, losing potential black. Had white not played L17 but
M19
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . . 1 # 2 . 4 # # 3 | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # . O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
Black in the corner is a lost cause, if white wait for blacks response
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . . 1 # 3 2 4 # # . | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # 5 # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # . O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . 9 # # # 7 6 # # 8 | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # # # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # . O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
*10 @ 6 and black dies. either way, white taking away its liberty at L17 would
be its downfall and cost it the game.
Nuke
>
Ted S.
in <3B1ABFB9...@home.com>:
What if White playes 2 where you have Black 5 (ie. L19)? The Black stones
are in atari. Black 3 in your diagram is forced, leaving us with the
following position:
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . O # # # . . # # . | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # O O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
Black can still kill the White group at L17, but only at the cost of the
three stones around S19. I believe it's possible to kill the White group
and save those stones as well.
Granted, I went on to win by about 15 points, so saving those three stones
wouldn't have mattered *in this game*. Of course, I've also won at least
two games by exactly 0.5 points, so there will be times when it would
matter. :-)
>White plays elsewhere, losing potential black. Had white not played L17
>but M19
>
> A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
> ---------------------------------------
> 19 | . . # . . . . . . . . 1 # 2 . 4 # # 3 | 19
> 18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
> 17 | . O # # O # O O # . O # O # # # O O O | 17
> 16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
> 15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
> 14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
> 13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
> 12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
> 11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
> 10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
You've got the diagram wrong here. There should be no White stone at L17;
it should be at K17 instead. If White had tried M19 in the actual game, I
would have captured at L17.
(As it turned out, I eventually captured there anyhow just to make life
easier on myself. I didn't see the correct answer to White's L17 at the
time of the game. ;-)
Of course, I'm only around 21k, so my analysis may be off, too.
--
Ted
To reply by e-mail, change .spam to .net
Steve MacGregor
news:xb7EukB3...@scat.demon.co.uk...
> - Note that copyright exists until about 70 years after the death of the
> author in the UK (with one exception: Peter Pan).
Another exception: The King James Version of the Bible. Why is there
an exception for "Peter Pan"?
Sorry about being off-topic here.
--
____ "Go: It's all fun and games,
(_) /: ,/ till someone loses an eye!"
/___/ (_) Steve MacGregor, Phoenix, AZ
<http://www.steve-and-pattie.com>
Louise Bremner
> Why is there an exception for "Peter Pan"?
I was told that it's because the copyright was transferred to the Great
Ormand Street Hospital (the place where my sister recovered from an
incurable blood disease as a toddler--but maybe not directly due to
efforts of the Hospital itself). But now that I think about it, I wonder
if it's really possible to transfer a copyright in that manner?
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
John Fairbairn
"Louise Bremner" <dame_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1euiour.1s9iojvzdzxdrN%dame_...@yahoo.com...
> Steve MacGregor <st...@steve-and-pattie.com> wrote:
>
> > Why is there an exception for "Peter Pan"?
>
> I was told that it's because the copyright was transferred to the Great
> Ormand Street Hospital (the place where my sister recovered from an
J.M. Barrie assigned the royalties from Peter Pan to London's Great Ormond
Street Hospital for Sick Children in his will. In the normal course of
events copyright would have expired in 1989, but in 1988 Lord Callaghan had
the Copyright Bill amended it to assign copyright in perpetuity to the
hospital.
I think.. but what has this got to do with go? Cue for a Go Kiburi story?
Where are you Mr Roach?
Paul Clarke
MacGregor <st...@steve-and-pattie.com> writes
>"Stephen Tavener" <ste...@scat.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:xb7EukB3...@scat.demon.co.uk...
>
>> - Note that copyright exists until about 70 years after the death of the
>> author in the UK (with one exception: Peter Pan).
>
>Another exception: The King James Version of the Bible.
Do you mean that it's an exception because it's out of copyright despite
claims that the author is still around? :-)
> Why is there
>an exception for "Peter Pan"?
J.M.Barrie left the copyright of _Peter Pan_ to the Great Ormond Street
Hospital for Sick Children. Under the previous rule of life plus fifty
years, the copyright expired at the end of 1987. An amendment was added
to the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 granting Great Ormond St
the right to continue receiving royalties from performances and
publications of _Peter Pan_, though it didn't actually extend the
copyright. However, _Peter Pan_ is now back in copyright because of the
change to life plus 70 years, so presumably Great Ormond St doesn't need
its special privilege until 2008.
Grisly details courtesy of _Intellectual Property_ by David Bainbridge.
-
>> Steve MacGregor <st...@steve-and-pattie.com> wrote:
>>> Why is there an exception for "Peter Pan"?
> "Louise Bremner" <dame_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> ... because the copyright was transferred to the Great Ormand Street
>> Hospital (the place where my sister recovered from an ...
From: "John Fairbairn" <john...@harrowgo.demon.co.uk>
> ... in 1988 Lord Callaghan had he Copyright Bill amended it to
> assign copyright in perpetuity to the hospital.
> I think.. but what has this got to do with go?
Question remains concerning whether a perpetuity copyright
is recognized outside of the U.K. under international rounds of
trade agreements. For example, the United States Constitution
disallows the granting of any "title" (perhaps implied by the
notion of a perpetuity copyright). This legal point was a sticky
wicket during the events of 1776-1789, persisting through 1812.
unkx80
> three stones around S19. I believe it's possible to kill the White group
> and save those stones as well.
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
---------------------------------------
19 | . . # . . . . . . . . 1 # a 2 b # # . | 19
18 | O # . # # # # # O O O # O # . # O # O | 18
17 | . O # # O # O O # O O # O # # # O O O | 17
16 | . O # # O O O # # # O O O # O O O . . | 16
15 | . . # O O . O O O # # # # # O # O . . | 15
14 | . # # # O . . . O # # # O O # # O . . | 14
13 | # # O O O . . O # # O O O # . # # O . | 13
12 | # O # # O . . O # O . O # . # # O O . | 12
11 | O O . # . . . . O O . O # . . # O . O | 11
10 | . O . # . . . . . , O # # . # O O O # | 10
9 | O O O # . . O . . . O # . . . # # # # | 9
8 | O # O O . O . . . O # # . . . . . . . | 8
7 | O # O O O . . O O # . . . . . # . . . | 7
6 | # # # O # O O . O # . # # . # . # # # | 6
5 | . . # # # O # O O # # O O # # # O O # | 5
4 | . . # , # O # # O # O . . O # O . O # | 4
3 | . . . . # # . # # O . O . O O . O . O | 3
2 | . . . . . . # # O O . . . . . . . . . | 2
1 | . . . . . # O O O . . . . . . . . . . | 1
---------------------------------------
A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
(black 1)
Black 1 is correct, and the white group at L17 is killed. However, so long
white plays at 2, it is not possible to save the three stones including S19.
Subsequently, 'a' and 'b' are miai.
Regards,
unkx80