Rules incident

2 views
Skip to first unread message

John Fairbairn

unread,
Apr 4, 2003, 3:14:30 PM4/4/03
to
There was an incident (NOT a rules infraction or a dispute) in a game during
the current Chinese Cities League Division B Tournament - which incidentally
has attracted a record number of foreign players.

One of the foreign players was Japan's new star Seto Taiki. In a game
(below) with Liu Fan he won by a quarter of a point because of a peculiarity
of Chinese rules, but even more remarkably because he was aided by a mistake
on the part of Liu who should have known the Chinese rules inside out. And
under Japanese rules Seto would have lost by half a point with or without
the mistake.

As I understand it, Liu's error was 233. He should never have taken the ko,
but should have just gone on filling dame. That way he would have been able
to play the last move on the board and would have won.

Because of this (?fundamental) error, Seto was able to play out the ko,
using the dame-filling as ko threats, and ended up being able to play the
last move.

Comments and confirmation from the rules chappies, please :)

(;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Seto Taiki]
PB[Liu Fan]
KM[3.75]
RU[Chinese]
RE[W+0.25]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[pd];W[dd];B[qp];W[dq];B[do];W[op];B[fp];W[qq];B[er];W[bo];B[cp];W[ck]
;B[kq];W[pp];B[qo];W[pr];B[pk];W[qf];B[pf];W[pg];B[qe];W[of];B[pe];W[rf]
;B[ph];W[qg];B[og];W[oh];B[ng];W[pi];B[nh];W[oi];B[ni];W[nj];B[qi];W[qh]
;B[qj];W[ok];B[pm];W[lj];B[jc];W[kd];B[kc];W[md];B[ne];W[mf];B[nf];W[lc]
;B[fc];W[jd];B[ic];W[id];B[fe];W[df];B[db];W[gc];B[gb];W[gd];B[ee];W[de]
;B[eb];W[dc];B[fd];W[cb];B[lb];W[mb];B[kb];W[kg];B[nc];W[mc];B[bp];W[ip]
;B[nq];W[pn];B[qn];W[om];B[ol];W[nl];B[pl];W[gp];B[mk];W[mj];B[nk];W[oj]
;B[nm];W[np];B[gq];W[fo];B[ep];W[qc];B[pb];W[rd];B[nb];W[ml];B[mm];W[ll]
;B[on];W[mq];B[ci];W[cg];B[dk];W[dl];B[cl];W[cm];B[bl];W[dj];B[ek];W[cj]
;B[bm];W[dm];B[ej];W[di];B[ei];W[fl];B[dh];W[ch];B[go];W[fn];B[hp];W[eh]
;B[fh];W[dg];B[fg];W[bn];B[cn];W[bk];B[mr];W[nr];B[lq];W[mp];B[ns];W[or]
;B[me];W[le];B[gm];W[fm];B[ko];W[in];B[jn];W[io];B[gn];W[im];B[iq];W[jm]
;B[ca];W[bb];B[re];W[se];B[he];W[hd];B[ma];W[hg];B[hf];W[ig];B[hi];W[qb]
;B[nd];W[ld];B[ji];W[lh];B[qa];W[ra];B[pa];W[rp];B[ro];W[rq];B[lr];W[ri]
;B[rj];W[rh];B[po];W[rb];B[ao];W[am];B[ba];W[ij];B[ii];W[jj];B[ki];W[mh]
;B[hj];W[sj];B[sk];W[si];B[so];W[jp];B[jq];W[pc];B[oc];W[if];B[ab];W[bc]
;B[km];W[kl];B[kj];W[jk];B[kk];W[lk];B[mg];W[lf];B[ik];W[jl];B[gk];W[lm]
;B[kn];W[gg];B[co];W[al];B[gf];W[da];B[ea];W[os];B[ie];W[je];B[ms];W[mn]
;B[nn];W[rk];B[sl];W[pj];B[qk];W[fk];B[fj];W[hc];B[hb];W[sp];B[kh];W[lg]
;B[eg];W[jh];B[ih];W[jg];B[dh];W[el];B[en];W[eo];B[dn];W[kp];B[mo];W[ln]
;B[lo];W[lp];B[no];W[hl];B[hk];W[gl];B[da];W[ac];B[eh];W[an];B[ap];W[aa]
;B[sd];W[sc];B[ab];W[rl];B[sm];W[aa];B[ho];W[ec];B[ab];W[ge];B[ff];W[aa]
;B[mi];W[li];B[ab];W[gh];B[gi];W[aa]
)

Bill Spight

unread,
Apr 4, 2003, 7:24:34 PM4/4/03
to
Dear John,

> As I understand it, Liu's error was 233. He should never have taken the ko,
> but should have just gone on filling dame. That way he would have been able
> to play the last move on the board and would have won.
>

Liu was Black. At move 233 he took a 1 1/3 point ko (by area scoring)
instead of playing a 1 point dame. Normally that is the right thing to
do, but the ko was miai with one in the top right corner. (The second ko
is hidden because first Black has to make a connection and White has to
play atari. Those moves are miai.) The problem with taking the ko is
that White has enough ko threats to be komonster, not only winning the
ko but able to delay the win until all the dame are gone. Then White
filled the ko for free. That made a difference of 1 stone in the score.
If Liu had left the two kos as miai, he could have waited to fill his ko
*after* Seto filled his.

> Because of this (?fundamental) error, Seto was able to play out the ko,
> using the dame-filling as ko threats, and ended up being able to play the
> last move.

Actually, it was Liu who filled dame as tertiary ko threats. He just did
not have enough of them. (Tertiary threats are defensive in nature,
attempting not to lose points in this manner.)

Best,

Bill

Sergio Parimbelli

unread,
Apr 6, 2003, 10:36:05 AM4/6/03
to
What am I doing wrong?

I tried to select this game as SGF and autoplay with gGo, but I got an
error message, saying something like: Wrong SGF position at move 60.

TIA
Sergio Parimbelli, bloody gGo beginner

John Fairbairn schrieb:

Erik

unread,
Apr 6, 2003, 6:31:21 PM4/6/03
to
Sergio Parimbelli wrote:
>
> What am I doing wrong?
>
> I tried to select this game as SGF and autoplay with gGo, but I got an
> error message, saying something like: Wrong SGF position at move 60.
>
> TIA
> Sergio Parimbelli, bloody gGo beginner

What version of gGo are you using?
I put it through gGo 0.3.3 and it worked fine.

Erik.
--
Good judgement comes from experience;
experience comes from bad judgement.
-- Mark Twain

Peter Strempel

unread,
Apr 7, 2003, 2:17:18 AM4/7/03
to
Sergio Parimbelli wrote:
> What am I doing wrong?
>
> I tried to select this game as SGF and autoplay with gGo, but I got an
> error message, saying something like: Wrong SGF position at move 60.
>
> TIA
> Sergio Parimbelli, bloody gGo beginner


I just loaded the SGF file in gGo, the game loads and displays correct. I
tried both pasting the SGF text part in the Import SGF dialog, and saving
from the newsreader to a file and loading this with gGo.

Did you keep some non-SGF text from the news article in the paste buffer or
loaded file? That would confuse gGo. But I think that's no big problem, as
copying the SGF part only in the newsreader, then in gGo do Menu File -
Import/Export - Import SGF, paste the SGF and click Load game button offers
a smooth way to transfer those games from any text reader into the SGF
editor.

By the way, using version 0.3.5 here (not yet released, but soon), but the
SGF parser code didn't change since several versions.

If you still get the problem, email me the file which you try to load in
gGo, so I can have a look.


Peter

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages