MoyoGo Review
Michael Alford
The following appears in the AGA E-Journal V7 #29 April 7, 2006
GO REVIEW: MoyoGo
Reviewed by Philip Waldron 6d
With a variety of go databases now available, MoyoGo is another
recent entry from Europe. Like other database programs, it is useful for
finding games of your favorite player or searching for that joseki or
fuseki that you just messed up.
After loading MoyoGo for the first time, I realized I had no idea
what to do next. MoyoGo unfortunately comes with no manual, and its help
system consists of a few short "tips" that display upon start-up. While
some demo videos are available, they are not enough to avoid an
aggravating trial-and-error learning process. Compared to the extensive
documentation and tutorials provided with other database programs,
MoyoGo comes up painfully short.
Those willing and able to get past a fairly steep learning curve
will find that MoyoGo has a number of useful features. A complete SGF
editor for analyzing electronic game records is provided, along with the
option to export board position to a variety of graphics formats for web
publishing (although MoyoGo offers no support for printing). Users can
also search through the Sensei's Library website from within MoyoGo,
allowing for easy searches of unfamiliar terms.
The game database is, of course, MoyoGo's most important feature
(and perhaps its most controversial, containing game records that were
acquired from other collections without permission. Read more about this
issue at http://www.usgo.org/EJournal/archive/20051128.asp and this
program tries something new. Its pattern matching system not only
reports exact matches, but also suggests moves based on its analysis of
similar professional and strong amateur games. In professional games, I
found that MoyoGo predicted moves about one-third of the time during the
opening and early middle game, but in most cases these involved
following known lines of play. The system performed extremely poorly
whenever games required strategic decisions, and this weakness became
even more evident when analyzing amateur games. In one game I examined,
MoyoGo suggested several small tactical moves rather than taking an
empty corner. My experience was that MoyoGo's analysis got worse as the
strength of the players decreased, noticeable even for low-dan games.
My overall assessment is that MoyoGo is not yet ready for
prime-time. The documentation is inadequate and its crown jewel, the
pattern matching system, becomes progressively less useful to weaker
players. While the program certainly contains some useful features, most
can be found through other free programs and are not enough to justify
the purchase price.
MoyoGo Studio is available from the author at www.moyogo.com
Frank de Groot
news:e16sb...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> Hi there, sports fans:
>
> The following appears in the AGA E-Journal V7 #29 April 7, 2006
I have replied in my blog:
http://www.moyogo.com/blog/blog.htm
Someone has filed a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commision about
AGA pertaining this issue:
http://www.godiscussions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=369#369
Every time AGA throw mud to Moyo Go, several of MoyoGo's customers resign
their AGA membership.
I have approx. 100 US-based users.
I am considering to give a big rebate to any US-based customer who presents
proof of termination of their AGA membership for at least one year. For
example, any AGA member will get Moyo Go Studio for the price it costs me to
send the DVD (8 USD or so), if they terminate their memnbership and do not
renew it for at least a year.
Frank de Groot
> I am considering to give a big rebate to any US-based customer who
> presents proof of termination of their AGA membership for at least one
> year. For example, any AGA member will get Moyo Go Studio for the price it
> costs me to send the DVD (8 USD or so), if they terminate their
> memnbership and do not renew it for at least a year.
Yes..
I will do a detailed calculation what my exact costs are for sending a DVD,
and I will proceed with a special deal to AGA members who email me a scanned
confirmation of AGA terminating their membership, and I will send anyone who
cancels their AGA membership for a year a fully featured version of Moyo Go
Studio with lifetime updates and lifetime weekly pro games by email for the
absolute minimal cost I can provide it to the US market.
That will include a "bulk" deal with the postal services, buing my materials
in large quantities, negotiating a better price for things like DVD's and
bubble envelopes (bought at a net auction) etc. I think I can get the price
down to 5 bucks.
I have never understood why people who live in glass houses like to throw
stones so much.
Of course, very many new US customers will ensue. They will see that AGA has
been lying all along about Moyo Go, and they will renew their AGA membership
only when the current mafia figures are voted out.
BramGo
kombilo for free!
For those persons allready using moyogo: I'm sorry you wasted your
money. Get a free, faster, flexible and crossplatform pattern search
tool here:
Kombilo is also available inside the hikarunix Go operating system that
boots from a CD.
no thanks!
Frank de Groot
> For those persons allready using moyogo: I'm sorry you wasted your
> money. Get a free, faster, flexible and crossplatform pattern search
> tool here:
>
> http://www.u-go.net/kombilo/
>
MoyoGo searches faster than Kombilo, at least on my machine, but it's pretty
close on one-CPU machines and I haven't even optimized it yet.
See this blog posting for details:
http://www.moyogo.com/blog/2006/03/outsearching-kombilo.html
The future for Kombilo looks bleak, however, if it doesn't implement
multithreading, as Moyo Go has.
BramGo
not only funny it's RUBBISH !
Why would you need a multithreading system to perform a single
operation !
Oh dear Frank stop spreading this junk!
On top of that what do YOU know about the way kombilo works. You're
just guessing, making lies, making advertisment for a bad product. Stop
annoying these people. Don't you see your product is worthless!
Frank de Groot
> Why would you need a multithreading system to perform a single
> operation !
Because that single operation executes twice as fast if you spread the work
over two processors.
Meaning, a search returns in 5 seconds instead of 10.
Kombilo's worst-case search time is several minutes, when a database of
40,000 games is used.
Imagine the delays when a database as large as MoyoGo's is used (400,000
games).
Multithreading becomes mandatory for such powerful database systems.
My machine has 4 CPU's, and this is why Moyo Go searches free-definable
patterns faster than Kombilo, because Kombilo is unable to utilize
multi-core CPU's or dual CPU's.
> On top of that what do YOU know about the way kombilo works.
I made a "Kombilo" myself that searches faster than Kombilo :)
Frank de Groot
>
> I made a "Kombilo" myself that searches faster than Kombilo :)
Bram, it looks like you are not running the latest version :)
BramGo
- First of all you are telling everybody I update my software everyday
according to your statistics. This while I told you a 1000ND times your
software SUCKS and I have no interest in running it. I am perfectly
happy with kombilo. Stop abusing my good name for your bad product. I
don't want to have anything to do with it.
- And at the same time you are telling me I should update my software.
- And this while reality is that you have blocked my software so that I
can not longer update even if I wanted to.
You should try to keep up with your own lies, thief !
Oh btw, I hope people are not actually going to give up their
AGA-membership because some thief is promising you a worthless product.
Instead download kombilo and Frank's 43,000 STOLEN games.
Yup dear people Frank is building a nice crime-record based on lies,
tricks and exploiting our go-community. Some day they will put him in
yail for that btw. Tell me how is he going to give you lifetime updates
if they lock him away for 20 years? By the way, Frank never kept a job
for longer than 3 years (I assume because of his terrible behaviour).
Why would he do it this time? I think pretty soon he will take all his
collected money and start a new business.
Gohst @
I'd suggest that you boys let it go now. Frank has said several times
that you're not blocked from updating, so if you keep repeating your own
lies, while accusing Frank of being a liar, what does that make you?
You've stated your opinions, and Frank has stated his. There isn't going
to be a lot of common ground here. So, GIVE UP. Leave off with all this
s*#t. This is a Go newsgroup, and you are abusing your privileges.
It is nonsense flame wars like this that make people wish there was a
moderated group of people who actually want to discuss the game, rather
than politics. Oh, I forgot, there is..... ;<) More than one,
actually.
You guys ought to get a room, and hash it out there.
-- Gohst
Frank de Groot
news:e18oc...@news3.newsguy.com...
> I'd suggest that you boys let it go now. Frank has said several times
> that you're not blocked from updating, so if you keep repeating your own
> lies, while accusing Frank of being a liar, what does that make you?
I will even send him a brand new DVD, if that will shut him up.
Jeff Nowakowski
> It is nonsense flame wars like this that make people wish there was a
> moderated group of people who actually want to discuss the game, rather
> than politics.
Umm, are you required to like every topic on the newsgroup? No? Then
just mark the thread as read and ignore it. Moderate for yourself
instead of having somebody else decide what you should read. Or maybe
you *should* move to the moderated forum.
-Jeff
Gohst @
sometimes (OK, rarely), pointing out childishness actually gets people's
attention.
Apparently, you are defending to the death their right to childishness.
;<)
-- Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Nowakowski [mailto:jef...@ccs.neu.edu]
Posted At: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:01 PM
Posted To: rec.games.go
Conversation: MoyoGo Review
Subject: Re: MoyoGo Review
viri...@excite.com
I have 5724 direct link libraries 7 devices but 49 device drivers. On
top of that I have 1038
system files, many of which are also drivers, and 72 processes running
at any moment.
My Java folder, which to my surprise one day I discovered I could no
longer even surf the web without, is 134 mega bytes.
Even if I have the disk space for it, why would I want to keep
encouraging nuts to keep creating new programming languages for which
people have to install virtual machines like Python. The damn CPU
doesn't care because it all gets turned into machine code at some
point.
All that is beside the point wrt go. Aren't you supposed to play with
the database between the left ear and the right ear, Van Gogh being the
exception. It takes the fun out studying pro game after pro game and
gleaning that diamond of strategy that either leads to victory or loss,
and applying it to a similer situation.
I can see why some people open with k13 now, poor fellow.
oli330
I'm running it. I don't own supercomputer and it works great :) (quite
old celeron1.7 with 512 mb of ram)
In the morning i wrote a review and under mine there is another, both
positive. http://senseis.xmp.net/?MoyoGoStudio
I don't really know what's bothering you on such a nice software.
Jeff Nowakowski
> Apparently, you are defending to the death their right to childishness.
What you consider childish I consider entertaining (ok, I consider it
childish as well). It may also be informative for those considering
MoyoGo. Anyways, these threads always die out eventually on their own.
The point is we are all free to pick and choose what threads to pay
attention to.
-Jeff
Hans Kloss
responsibility of each reader to do the selection for themselves or pay
for somebody to do it for them. I am afraid there is no third way.
Of course this does not mean that we shall ignore lunatics gathering for
another night of long nives or something but in general tenuki is best
strategy while dealing with such aggreviated individuals.
//
Peterium
because the interface is really weird and kinda hard to learn. I'm sure
there are a lot of people who "get it" faster than I do, and totally
enjoy it, but my personal experience with the program is really
actually not that good. I think perhaps after I get a bit more time,
I'll try to explore the program a bit more, but the thing is, I feel
that so far the only feature that I think is useful in Moyo Go compared
to the rest of the programs is that it has all those amateur databases
as well. Other than that, I really cannot see the difference between
any of the other programs and moyo go.
Frank de Groot
> Dunno, I bought Moyo Go a while ago, but I had a hard time using it
> because the interface is really weird and kinda hard to learn.
Do you have any concrete examples of things that are hard to understand or
could be improved?
(I have some customers who, even after extensive mentoring, have problems
right clicking, double-clicking, do not know what a file is, have
difficulties using both hands simultaneously, etc. It is hard to satisfy
everybody.) Some customers impulsively bought the program and, like Mr.
Waldron, do not even understand that main strengths of the system and think
it's just a glorified database or a bad-quality move suggester.
It's not a god idea to have such customers. Please, please contact me and I
will give you your money back.
MoyoGo's strength is /not/ a large game database, it is /not/ a move
suggester, it is a zero-wait pattern search system that gives instant
examples of possible moves. To do this, you actually have to "use" the
program as a tool, you have to use both hands, press buttons and move the
mouse, double click on results, etc. I have at least one customer who keeps
emailing me that he is unable to do that - perhaps you're him :)
For the rest, my principle is that I do not want people - for whatever
reason, even if it is their own "fault" - to be dissatisfied with the
program.
Which means I have a lifetime money back guarantee.
So just email me and I will send you your money back.
23 different, mostly non-anonymous, people disagree with you:
http://www.moyogo.com/Praise.htm
ian
You mean, I think, that these 23 people have different
opinions/reactions to the product.
Disagreement is suggesting something else.
Frank de Groot
> You mean, I think, that these 23 people have different
> opinions/reactions to the product.
> Disagreement is suggesting something else.
It is clear that they disagree with the notion that it's "nothing special"
and "hard to use" - the page shows statements implying contrary opinion. If
you would have read the page, it would also be clear to you.