[ANN] Freeware SGF Editor! (from Moyo Go Studio)
Frank de Groot
Studio commercial Go software package.
Download this free SGF editor here:
http://www.moyogo.com/SGF_Editor.htm
This SGF editor will be able to play back future Audio Go lessons made by
the commercial version of Moyo Go Studio, and of course it's a full-fledged,
industrial-strength SGF Editor.
Features:
- Stereo, studio-recorded sound
- Playback of audio commentary
- Unlimited Undo
- Customizable SGF annotation (with "hide KGS circle"!)
- Digital Byo-yomi clock (showing time left)
- Auto-play mode
- Guess (training) mode
- Extremely powerful SGF search feature
- 2D/3D board
- Skinnable user interface
- Skinnable Go board
- Dockable windows and saveable docking layouts
- Very extensive and very user-friendly SGF annotation features (using
"rubberbanding")
- Export to Sensei's Library format
- Sensei-Search of words or sentences in the comments
- Paste SGF from newsgroup, save position to ASCII, copy region to Jpeg,
etc. etc.
Help is online (work-in-progress, includes Moyo Go Studio Help - just ignore
those parts :)
http://www.moyogo.com/MoyoGo.htm
Enjoy!
carn...@gmail.com
Frank de Groot
carn...@gmail.com
> From: Frank de Groot - view profile
> Date: Mon, Mar 27 2006 1:20 am
> Email: "Frank de Groot" <franc...@online.no>
> <carni...@gmail.com> wrote
> > again a ms-windows only product
> Yes! Isn't it GREAT?
i don't think this is the place to discuss the
virtues or defects of ms-windows, but i think
you underestimate the % of linux and mac
users between go players. to my experience
and feeling, it is much greater than average
what graphical toolkit are you using? is it
not portable? i am impressed to read all the
features implemented in moyogo, and i think
it'd be worth to spend a small % of hours in
making it portable to other platforms
Frank de Groot
> what graphical toolkit are you using? is it
> not portable? i am impressed to read all the
> features implemented in moyogo, and i think
> it'd be worth to spend a small % of hours in
> making it portable to other platforms
You obviously haven't got a clue.
It would take about 5000 hours, give or take, to port Moyo Go to Linux or
Mac.
And I wouldn't be happy with the result, so I let it be.
I focus on building the very best software for the majority of people, not
to have a watered-down, least-common-denominator design-by-comittee
underpowered, ugly, slow shadow of my dreams just to satisfy a few Linux
geeks who have no intention of compensating me for my years of hard labor,
or a few Mac users who will prove to be a support nightmare because they
don't even know how to right-click because their mouse has only one button.
Linux is a non-market, Macs will soon all run Windows anyway.
Gohst @
those????? ;<)
Louise Bremner
> ...a few Mac users who will prove to be a support nightmare because they
> don't even know how to right-click because their mouse has only one
> button.
Just tell them it's Click-and-Hold (except in certain applications where
the author is unable to access that feature of the Mac OS, of course).
When I use a multi-button mouse, I re-assign the right button to the far
more useful Double-Click.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
abu...@ieee.org
very clear. And, speaking as a Linux user and as a software developer,
his arguments make a lot of sense to me.
If you are a Linux user and you want Moyo Go Studio, go write it. Go
write a better one, even.
Adam
ian
I really don't see the point of it myself.
If I want to look at an sgf I want to look at text, if I want to review
a lecture show me an mpeg or something. I quite like lectures when
they're live, but I've found I don't have much time for them when
they're played back.
What happens with the audio when you start analysing your own
variations. What happens when you save these new variations?
stalker
geeks who have no intention of compensating me for my years of hard
labor,
or a few Mac users who will prove to be a support nightmare because
they
don't even know how to right-click because their mouse has only one
button.
Linux is a non-market, Macs will soon all run Windows anyway. "
I understand it's a hard work to make a good program like yours, but I
don't understand why you have to insult Mac and Linux users. Anyway,
for my experience, a high percentage of go players are users of these
operative systems, but you´ll know how to manage your business and the
money you are losing from this market (as a linux user I would buy your
product: linux users we are not pirates, not like many windows users).
Frank de Groot
> I don't understand why you have to insult Mac and Linux users.
Where did I do that?
It's a mental illness to identify yourself with your possessions, did you
know?
People have in fact been murdered for saying that somebody's car sucked.
I guess I am still alive by the grace of Go players being a bit more
reasonable than average.
Linux and Mac compatibility is a bad idea from a business POV, and in
addition I think both platforms suck donkeyschlongs.
I never intended to "insult" any users.
I am 100% sure that Linux and Mac users are perfectly OK people.
> Anyway,
>for my experience, a high percentage of go players are users of these
>operative systems, but you´ll know how to manage your business and the
>money you are losing from this market (as a linux user I would buy your
>product: linux users we are not pirates, not like many windows users).
Marketing research shows that Linux users prefer free software - that is why
they choose Linux in the first place.
They endure limited availability of software and crappy OS-periphery (Linux
doesn't have antialiased fonts, last time I looked) just to be able to avoid
paying. I have bought dozens of software packages in my life. Most Linux
users zero, for their OS.
Linux and Mac OS X fall way below my minimum standards to develop software
for.
Some of the minimum demands I have is antialiased fonts and a two-button
mouse.
I am sick and tired of getting harassed by people telling me I should have
developed my software so that it runs on their machines. I am a Windows
developer!
Just like a BMW dealer is in the business of providing services to BMW
owners, I provide services to people who bought WindowsT. Just like Lada or
Skoda owners don't complain to a BMW dealer that their BMW headlights don't
fit to their Lada's or Skoda's, Mac or Linux users should not complain to me
that my software does not run on their machines.
BMW accessory makers prefer to make and sell accessories to BMW's, I prefer
to make and sell software for Windows.
Please keep your allegations of me "insulting" users of different OSes to
yourself.
Frank de Groot
> If I want to look at an sgf I want to look at text, if I want to review
> a lecture show me an mpeg or something. I quite like lectures when
> they're live, but I've found I don't have much time for them when
> they're played back.
A lot of people like to get audio analysis with Go games.
audiogolessons.com even turned into a business model. KGS also has it as a
service, and several high dan players and people teaching Go have expressed
interest.
I put an example here: http://www.moyogo.com/AudioDemo.sgf (37 KB)
As you see, it is ordinary SGF.
(you can play the audio with the freeware SGF Editor here:
http://www.moyogo.com/SGF_Editor.htm )
> What happens with the audio when you start analysing your own
> variations. What happens when you save these new variations?
The audio is stored as an ordinary SGF property in the ordinary SGF file.
Which means that you can record your voice for each move or position, save
it to an SGF file that you can paste in a newsgroup, and anyone can play
that SGF back on any SGF Reader that does not choke on long SGF properties.
Last year I identified a few commercial products that indeed choked (MFOG &
SmartGo), but SmartGo has fixed that bug, of MFOG I have no idea. I have
also identified a few freeware products that did not handle long SGF
properties properly (the programs crash or hang), and I have put a list on
the Go programmers newsgroup. Some of the better programmers' software
handled it without any problems (Peter Strempel's work gets honorable
mention).
carn...@gmail.com
Frank de Groot wrote:
> "stalker" <trov...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > I don't understand why you have to insult Mac and Linux users.
>
> Where did I do that?
> It's a mental illness to identify yourself with your possessions, did you
> know?
>
Your previous post was somehow insulting. Now you
reworded it and it is not : You express your point of
view (which does not have to match reality at 100%)
in a more respectful way.
> I never intended to "insult" any users.
> I am 100% sure that Linux and Mac users are perfectly OK people.
not necessarily
even not necessarily as ok as windows users
>
> Marketing research shows that Linux users prefer free software - that is why
> they choose Linux in the first place.
that does not mean they are not going to pay for
a product they like. i have almost never seen a
non-corporate windows user who paid for the
software he is using
> I am sick and tired of getting harassed by people telling me I should have
> developed my software so that it runs on their machines. I am a Windows
> developer!
>
i was not telling you you *had to*. i was just suggesting that
it could be profitable considering the very high ratio of non-windows
users amongst go players compared to other environments. if
you have to spend the hours you mentioned, i agree with you
it is not worth trying.
i'd consider buying your software if it was available for linux. i am
not interested in the high quality graphical features that only
windows can achieve (?), but on the pattern searching features. of
course, i am only 1 user, but i guess there are other around who
thing like me
when i develop software i always plan it so that it can be ported
and i18n'ed, but from the beginning
btw, you did not reply to what toolkit / developement environment
you are using. i hope it is not secret
stalker
they
don't even know how to right-click because their mouse has only one
button. "
I think you are in this phrase saying Mac users we are idiots, but you
are who doesn't know anything about a Mac. You can emulate a double
button in single button Apple mice. But besides now there are double
Apple mice too and many Mac users work with double button mice of other
companies: whichever usb double button mouse works perfectly in a Mac.
But it's ok if you want to sell your product only for windows users.
Linux and Mac users we can look for other products in market, like Many
faces of Go has Mac version. You lose.
"Linux is a non-market, Macs will soon all run Windows anyway".
Hehehe, yes, in your dreams. Now time has arrived for PC users will
install in their machines a good O.S and will be able to forget that
M.O(Malfunctioning System). I've read Microsoft has to rewrite
thousands of code lines of Vista and delay its exit. Users of decent
operative systems we are still laughing.
Anyway I congratulate you on your very good program in spite of the M.O
you use. It's a great work.
abu...@ieee.org
and who knows where else. Ask Google what he's using.
Adam
Frank de Groot
>> I never intended to "insult" any users.
>> I am 100% sure that Linux and Mac users are perfectly OK people.
>
> not necessarily
> even not necessarily as ok as windows users
Obviously I wasn't referring to individuals but to the average.
> that does not mean they are not going to pay for
> a product they like. i have almost never seen a
> non-corporate windows user who paid for the
> software he is using
I can testify that a few hundred people shelled out 69 USD for Moyo Go
Studio for Windows, so what you "have seen" does not neccesarily reflect
reality.
> i'd consider buying your software if it was available for linux. i am
> not interested in the high quality graphical features that only
> windows can achieve (?),
It is of course /possible/ under Linux, but to make it portable is a pain.
Tens of thousands of IFDEFS in bloated code plus learning the idiosyncracies
of a vastly different OS simply isn't worth 2 or 3% extra sales.
> when i develop software i always plan it so that it can be ported
> and i18n'ed, but from the beginning
Yep. Me too.
I have been a software developer for the best part of 3 decades.
To give an example: It would take me a few hours to offer a Korean version.
Not just due to the infrastructure, but because every single detail for i18n
has been taken care of, like placing all labels above or on the right side
of controls. And I have a very solid strategy for future porting. It's just
that NOW, there is no business case for it.
> btw, you did not reply to what toolkit / developement environment
> you are using. i hope it is not secret
I am not here to give programming lessons. So far you have unjustly attacked
me, ridiculed me, twisted my words and questioned my ability as a software
developer. In addition to that, you have offered "advice" that make me doubt
you are anything but a clever 14 year old. Let's make a deal: I continue
spending time on you, if you tell me some basic common-decency things first,
like who you are. I hate being shouted at from the dark by a stranger.
abu...@ieee.org
anyway".
Stalker wrote: Hehehe, yes, in your dreams.
I think Frank is refering to the ability to dual boot OSX and Windows
or to run virtual machines. I don't think he is saying that Apple users
are going to migrate to Microsoft. He is correct.
Adam
ian
Frank de Groot wrote:
> "ian" <siva...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > If I want to look at an sgf I want to look at text, if I want to review
> > a lecture show me an mpeg or something. I quite like lectures when
> > they're live, but I've found I don't have much time for them when
> > they're played back.
>
>
> A lot of people like to get audio analysis with Go games.
> audiogolessons.com even turned into a business model. KGS also has it as a
> service, and several high dan players and people teaching Go have expressed
> interest.
>
> I put an example here: http://www.moyogo.com/AudioDemo.sgf (37 KB)
> As you see, it is ordinary SGF.
>
> (you can play the audio with the freeware SGF Editor here:
> http://www.moyogo.com/SGF_Editor.htm )
>
>
> > What happens with the audio when you start analysing your own
> > variations. What happens when you save these new variations?
>
>
> The audio is stored as an ordinary SGF property in the ordinary SGF file.
> Which means that you can record your voice for each move or position, save
> it to an SGF file that you can paste in a newsgroup, and anyone can play
> that SGF back on any SGF Reader that does not choke on long SGF properties.
If it is tied to one property then that will not actually work properly
for a lecture then relayed in realtime on a Go Server. However having
said that, I don't see of a better way of programming it. :)
I wonder what happens when you go over the same property twice in a
tree.
posn X0 comment
look at variation A
posn X1 how is the result?
lets go back
posn X0 another comment
look at variation B
posn X2 this looks better doesn't it
posn X0 however there is a tesuji
posn X3 now we see the problem
as I remember sgf nodes this doesn't seem to work, but I would have to
examine your audio sgf file to verify the truth. Unfortunately I can't
do that where I am now.
stalker
Chris Dams
"Frank de Groot" <fran...@online.no> writes:
> Linux doesn't have antialiased fonts, last time I looked.
Then I must conclude that you haven't look at it for quite some time.
Half a decennium, if not longer. For instance, all my KDE-windows have
anti-aliased fonts in their title-bars. Whee!
Best,
Chris
Frank de Groot
news:e0920s$ahv$1...@wnnews.sci.kun.nl...
> Then I must conclude that you haven't look at it for quite some time.
> Half a decennium, if not longer.
Yes, 6 years ago. Seems like yesterday though.
I guess traumatic experiences stay with you longer..
Batmagoo
> Marketing research shows that Linux users prefer free software - that is why
> they choose Linux in the first place.
That's probably why the Finnish military, a New England bank and a New
York hospital chain recently chose Linux, too. For the free software.
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Jy8q7ZFE4BVtYW/Novell-Strikes-Three-Open-Source-Deals.xhtml
> They endure limited availability of software and crappy OS-periphery (Linux
> doesn't have antialiased fonts, last time I looked) just to be able to avoid
> paying. I have bought dozens of software packages in my life. Most Linux
> users zero, for their OS.
Yup, Frank said "most Linux users" so I guess he's probably not
referring
to the Finnish military here. Or the New England bank. Or the New
York
hospital chain. Frank is absolutely and completely right on this one.
[Except for the part about antialiased fonts. Due to the excellent
work by
Keith Packard and his Xft extension to XFree86, Linux has had them
since
2000. But the weasel-words "last time I looked" CFA on that one.
>> Antti Nummiranta of Finland's Ministry of Defense cited stability
>> and security features as prime reasons: [...]
>> "Our key operational and decision-making processes rely on our ability
>> to access our ... systems 24/7, securely and with no glitches," he said.
>> "We have not had a single second of downtime on the Linux platform."
So, stability and security were important to the Finnish military, and
they chose Linux.
> Linux and Mac OS X fall way below my minimum standards to develop software for.
> Some of the minimum demands I have is antialiased fonts and a two-button mouse.
Yeah, the three-button paradigm used by the X windowing system on Linux
does take some getting used to.
But look here, Frank is right, after all. It's not about security and
stability,
it's all about the free software, "just to be able to avoid paying":
>> Tom Francese, president of Novell's Europe, Middle East and Africa
>> operations, said the Finnish contract is an example of how an open
>> source, or freely developed and distributed, software core can meet
>> military secrecy needs "for their most critical applications and
>> services."
So, Frank is right. Open source, or freely developed and distributed,
sofware is _exactly_ what the Finnish military wanted. They sure
didn't want some proprietary, X-box/gameboy/playstation wannabe o/s
designed to meet the needs of secretaries and game players. If that's
the clientele you're writing software for, then Linux is of little
interest to you.
Now, I'm not trying to insult those secretaries and game players just
because they use an inferior operating system -- Windows -- that sucks
donkey schlongs.
In fact, I feel sorry for them. As I do "most" of the rest of the poor
benighted world, conned into being saddled with Windows, as well.
The less you know about computers, the more likely you are to use
Windows.
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, that is.
Is it all right if I have one?
I sure don't want to step on anyone's toes. But this is not Frank's
private soapbox.
He has to step down once and a while, and let me have _MY_ say, too.
Of course, not everyone needs to know how his computer works, and if
people want to buy what Microsoft's selling, well, that's their
decision.
An uninformed decision, to be sure, but who am I to tell them they've
made a bad one? The information was available to them as well as to
me.
> I am sick and tired of getting harassed by people telling me I should have
> developed my software so that it runs on their machines. I am a Windows
> developer!
How sad for you.
And if you characterize this post as harrassment -- how terribly sad.
--
Orne Batmagoo
I don't know for sure what Frank means by "limited availability", but
--
Is there some task to be done that can't be performed by Linux? I
don't think so.
And most software for Linux, as Frank is fond of pointing out, is
freely available
for download. So the availability is high.
He must simply mean that I can't buy "Grand Theft Auto" for my Linux
box.
How sad for me.
ian
stalker wrote:
> Yes, Adam, in this case he is correct.
Isn't he always correct :)
Frank de Groot
> I think you are in this phrase saying Mac users we are idiots, but you
> are who doesn't know anything about a Mac.
I know more about the Mac than Steve Jobs does.
I spent many hours /just/ studying the Altivec instruction set in such
detail that I was able to estimate the % speedup to be gained over SSE3. In
fact I have the Altivec datasheet printed out. I am 100% sure that Jobs is
unable to do advanced assembly language programming for Mac CPU's. I am,
since having spent about 100 hours on studying Altivec alone.
You are at the stage where anyone who attacks any aspect of your life's
choices is "ignorant".
You do this from a lack of self confidence.
> But it's ok if you want to sell your product only for windows users.
> Linux and Mac users we can look for other products in market, like Many
> faces of Go has Mac version. You lose.
Many Faces of Go does not compete with my software, so I don't loose. MFOG
has absolutely zero of the features Moyo Go Studio has. MFOG doesn't even
have an SGF editor, or a searchable game database, or pattern features.
> M.O(Malfunctioning System). I've read Microsoft has to rewrite
> thousands of code lines of Vista and delay its exit.
I have never said Windows was perfect, or Vista was perfect, of MS was
perfect.
I am just saying I do not want to develop for Linux and Macs, for various
reasons.
You are turning everything around and allege that I claim Windows is better
than sliced bread.
MS suffers from lack of technical understanding by management, lack of
innovation, bureacracy etc.
MS basically is bad at developing software: They prefer to buy it or buy the
competition and kill it.
I have never seen anything innovative get out of Redmond, I have never seen
them fix one single bug in any of their Office software, I hev never seen
them improve upon one of the hundreds of very nasty wasy things work in
their OS utilities or Office programs. Yes, the reality is that 95% of my
market is Windwos, that I like Windows and that there is no business case to
invest many years of becoming profficient in fringe OSes like Mac OS or
Linux.
You choose non-Windows, good luck to you. I advise you to go hang out with
non-Windows guys. I am a Windows guy.
> Anyway I congratulate you on your very good program in spite of the M.O
> you use. It's a great work.
I have no idea what a MO is, but thanks anyway.
Frank de Groot
news:1143474250.6...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I wonder what happens when you go over the same property twice in a
> tree.
Currently, every time you re-visit the same property, you hear the audio
again but I will make this a setting, so you can turn it off.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Frank de Groot
>> Marketing research shows that Linux users prefer free software - that is
>> why
>> they choose Linux in the first place.
>
> That's probably why the Finnish military, a New England bank and a New
> York hospital chain recently chose Linux, too. For the free software.
You are confused. The Finnish military, a New England bank and a New York
hospital chain are very unlikely to purchase site licences to Moyo Go, so I
do not see the relevance of your argument. I was talking, obviously, about
potential buyers of shrinkwrapped software.
> Yup, Frank said "most Linux users" so I guess he's probably not
> referring to the Finnish military here. Or the New England bank. Or the
> New
> York hospital chain. Frank is absolutely and completely right on this
> one.
Indeed, fool.
> Yeah, the three-button paradigm used by the X windowing system on Linux
> does take some getting used to.
X-Windows is arcane technology, certainly not something I want to have
anything to do with.
I refuse to be part of any client-server stuff, I leave that to AS-400 COBOL
weenies.
> But look here, Frank is right, after all. It's not about security and
> stability it's all about the free software, "just to be able to avoid
> paying":
Security is for governments, stability is for hospitals. XP is rock solid
(zero OS-crash-related reboots in three years, system on 24/7).
> the clientele you're writing software for, then Linux is of little
> interest to you.
Linux has a future, but only due to the extreme, I would say /suicidal/
incompetence of Microsoft.
Microsoft is easily the most incompetent large software developer of all
times, and that has something to do with the fact that they swim in cash.
> The less you know about computers, the more likely you are to use
> Windows.
Macs.
> Of course, not everyone needs to know how his computer works, and if
> people want to buy what Microsoft's selling, well, that's their
> decision.
I used to have pirated copies of Windows because I figured that the
financial damage it caused to me outweighed the benefits, but when I started
to develop software I purchased a few copies. In fact I have bought licences
to about 15 versions of Windows, including Japanese and Chinese 98SE, NT4.0
and whatnot. Just to test compatibility..
> Is there some task to be done that can't be performed by Linux? I
> don't think so.
It can't run my software :)
That seems to piss some poeple off, as they keep on whining about what a an
idiot I am to leave those great riches behind that await me, if I only would
spend a few years porting.
> And most software for Linux, as Frank is fond of pointing out, is
> freely available
> for download. So the availability is high.
Just that there ISN'T almost any good software for Linux!
stalker
Systems), sorry. I think it's a pity that good programmers like you are
proud of working with this system and call yourself windows guys. I
know it will give you more money but from an computational point of
view is a great loss for a world that deserves less bug systems and
more secure ones. Anyway best regards and follow developing go software
whichever platform..
noj...@gmail.com
Excellent work on the SGF editor (and darned fast too! :-)
I think Ian's question was about the sequence of events that happen
during a lecture:
When there's a lecture, the presenter tends to go back-and-forth
between nodes, speaking as she visits the *same* nodes over and over,
and the audio only makes sense in the context of this back and forth.
Example Lesson:
Node 1: "We're going to study the Star Point Josekis"
Node 5: "Here we see a common Joseki. Now, let's see a variation from
the top"
Node 1: (Notice, back on Node 1 again) "We have to be careful of the
following variation ..."
Node 7: "And this is why this variation is not recommended"
When someone reviews this SGF file, and gets to Node 1, what will the
audio be like? Just the first Node 1 annotation, the second one, or a
combination of both? And how would Moyogo editor know that the first
time I look at the SGF file, it should play the first annotation, and
then, *after* I've seen Node 5, and gone back to Node 1, then play the
second annotation.
I'm afraid I don't see a way to make this work, unless Moyogo was
actually creating a video file of the presentation. Now, *that* would
be awesome!
Still, pretty impressive how fast you can turn out this code. I wish I
was half as good :-)
NJ
Frank de Groot
> Node 1: "We're going to study the Star Point Josekis"
> Node 5: "Here we see a common Joseki. Now, let's see a variation from
> the top"
> Node 1: (Notice, back on Node 1 again) "We have to be careful of the
> following variation ..."
> Node 7: "And this is why this variation is not recommended"
> When someone reviews this SGF file, and gets to Node 1, what will the
> audio be like?
At the moment, it's simply the audio that belongs to that node that will
always be played.
> I'm afraid I don't see a way to make this work, unless Moyogo was
> actually creating a video file of the presentation. Now, *that* would
> be awesome!
That is near-trivial to make so I will do that next (but I have some other
things to do as well).
It will not be a video file, but it will be something I made for an
eLearning company: Recording of "jumps" and the movements of the mouse
cursor. Stored in ordinary SGF. So you hear the teacher speak, you see the
sequences being "played" and you see the mouse cursor move with the sound.
This is all very easy to make, embarrassingly easy.
But as I said, I can't do everything at the same time :)
noj...@gmail.com
I think this is genius!
This could be the "killer feature" that drives even more buyers to
Moyogo studio (the only way to create these files at this point), and
more users to Moyogo editor (the only way to play them)
Nice,
NJ
Chris Lawrence
> i don't think this is the place to discuss the
> virtues or defects of ms-windows, but i think
> you underestimate the % of linux and mac
> users between go players. to my experience
> and feeling, it is much greater than average
If you have a reasonably powerful Linux box and a legit copy of Windows,
download and install VMware Server (it's free at vmware.com), create a
virtual machine and install Windows in it. You can then run MGS in
that.
--
Chris
Batmagoo
to skip reading this. You won't learn anything new.
Frank de Groot wrote:
> "Batmagoo" <batm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
[Frank wrote:]
> >> Marketing research shows that Linux users prefer free software - that is
> >> why
> >> they choose Linux in the first place.
"That is why they choose Linux in the first place."
A fairly bold, and seemingly rather broad, assertion, by which
I admit I had assumed was meant:
"That is why they choose Linux in the first place."
> > That's probably why the Finnish military, a New England bank and a New
> > York hospital chain recently chose Linux, too. For the free software.
>
> You are confused.
Perhaps. I have only dim memories of the several times previously
that Frank has _appeared_ to be tarring all Linux users with the same
broad brush.
This most recent one [above] really, really appeared that way to me.
And maybe that's because Frank flatly stated, as if it were fact,
"That is why they choose Linux in the first place." Of course, later,
he can always say something like, "Fool! I was talking only about
users of commercial shrink-wrapped software!" or "I said 'most'
not 'all'" even though what he _actually_ did was to claim that he
knows the motives of those who use Linux.
Free advice: Might be better not to say anything about Linux at all,
if it's not your market.
> The Finnish military, a New England bank and a New York
> hospital chain are very unlikely to purchase site licences to Moyo Go, so I
> do not see the relevance of your argument. I was talking, obviously, about
> potential buyers of shrinkwrapped software.
Oh, yes, obviously. You've never said anything remotely like "Linux
is inferior to Windows", or anything like that, then. If you haven't,
then you're right, I must be confused. I must be confusing you with
someone _else_ who has posted flatly untrue assertions with nothing to
back them up.
LOOK: The relevance of my argument is that YOU posted here saying,
flatly, "That is why they choose Linux in the first place." YOU did.
It was YOU. And you are wrong. Wrongitty-wrong-wrong-wrong.
That's what's relevant here: The fact that YOUR assertion is wrong.
I have patiently tried to show you that your assertion is untrue,
and you have called me names.
Why, it almost seems that you are baiting me!
"Market research", my ass. Even if "Linux users are reluctant to pay
for software" is true -- and I have not seen such research -- that is
not _why_ folks use Linux. [Plenty of Linux URLs out there, to be
found by Google, so if you really do want to know why people are
using Linux, do some research of your own. Otherwise, you're going
to have to take _MY_ word for it. Just as Frank expects us to take
_HIS_ word for this so-called "market research".]
There are plenty of reasons I use Linux.
Being cheap isn't one of them. Being cheap isn't one of them.
Being cheap isn't one of them. So, NOW THAT YOU STAND
CORRECTED, you will surely stop saying that it is. Won't you.
"That is why they choose Linux in the first place." That's a lie;
please stop repeating it.
I will now patiently share with you the TWO main reasons people choose
to use Linux:
o- It is a "standards-based" as opposed to a "products-based"
operating system.
o- It works. (Unlike some less-reliable operating systems which
shall remain nameless, but if you've ever had a "blue screen of death"
you know who I mean.)
The implications of using "standards" instead of "products" are beyond
the scope of this article. Suffice it for the present to say that:
1) Not wanting to pay for software was not even on my list. That
is to say, "price" never affected my decision to use Linux, at all.
What I wanted was a standards-based O/S that works. OK?
and:
2) There are a lot of techno-geeks like me who feel the same way,
That is, they want to use a standards-based O/S that works. AND I KNOW
WHO THEY ARE.
and:
3) To _MY_ knowledge it is these techno-geeks who make up the
majority of Linux users.
Therefore I can only conclude that 4) they (the other techno-geeks
who make up the majority of the Linux user base) similarly did not
consider "price" as a motive. QED, Frank's assertion is wrong.
I conclude further that Frank's "majority" of Linux users who chose
Linux solely because it's free -- according to Frank -- somehow
represent a different "majority" from the one I know about in 3) above.
I have no explanation for that, other than "Frank's assertion is
untrue."
Which has already been proved. QED.
I really think that it would be to your benefit if you just shut up
about Linux. I can't believe it helps your sales to claim that all
Linux users are cheap bastards.
Forgive me; I don't mean to put words in your mouth. You never said
"cheap bastards".
> > Yup, Frank said "most Linux users" so I guess he's probably not
> > referring to the Finnish military here. Or the New England bank. Or the
> > New
> > York hospital chain. Frank is absolutely and completely right on this
> > one.
>
> Indeed, fool
Now, see there? "Indeed, fool."
I think that this sort of knee-jerk vitriol is maybe why some people
think that you have insulted them. I mean, _I_ can see clearly that
you are insulting only _ME_ when you call me a fool, but have you
stopped to think how this makes you -- and by "you" I mean your
business -- look to everybody else?
It's just possible that this type of response -- which, sadly, is not
all that uncommon from you, Frank -- is how folks get an idea that
you are routinely insulting to _ALL_ Linux users.
Damned fools. Can't they read? You were clearly insulting only _ME_.
> Security is for governments, stability is for hospitals. XP is rock solid
> (zero OS-crash-related reboots in three years, system on 24/7).
Why do you feel compelled to defend XP? Can't Bill Gates do that?
Anyway, I guess you think any negative opinion is an "attack".
Actually, I think XP is Microsoft's best effort yet. Falls far short
of Linux, though, as threaded, multitasking O/S's go. (In my
humble opinion, that is -- although I don't know why I should
be humble about it, considering that I'm utterly confident that
it is correct, and that I am right.)
XP is certainly much better than prevous versions of Windows.
AND LINUX IS MUCH BETTER THAN FRANK'S OUTMODED OPINION OF IT, DAMN IT!
STOP SPREADING LIES!
> Linux has a future, but only due to the extreme, I would say /suicidal/
> incompetence of Microsoft.
"Only"?
No, it's due also to the fact that _NO_ONE_ can afford to do
commercially what Linux does for free. Microsoft's incompetence
may help, but Linux's future is not "only" due to that incompetence.
It's also due to the thousands of developers Linux has, and the
worldwide support community associated with open-source software,
always striving to make it more robust, more secure, more reliable.
Did you even know that there is a worldwide support community for
Linux?
Apparently you did not, or you never would have flatly stated, as if it
were fact or something, that "Linux has a future... only due to the...
incompetence of Microsoft." What a ridiculous assertion!
"Only", indeed! What hogwash!
Linux is not defined in terms of Microsoft. It's strong enough to
define itself, to mold its own future. It rests securely in the hands
of thousands of competent, dedicated engineers and developers,
and it serves governments, businesses, scientific institutions, and
schools, worldwide.
And it's not just for servers anymore. The Linux desktop has matured,
too, "since the last time I looked". Maybe it happened while you
weren't looking, and so you will now reconsider your ill-thought-out
remarks. Maybe it happened while you weren't looking, and so you
will now reconsider your ill-thought-out remarks. Maybe it happened
while you weren't looking, and so you will now reconsider your
ill-thought-out remarks.
If you know what's good for you.
Even Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, can't afford to pay that
many dedicated programmers and engineers to craft _his_ products.
> Microsoft is easily the most incompetent large software developer of all
> times, and that has something to do with the fact that they swim in cash.
Amen. Here we agree, except that you think they have too
much money and don't know what to do with it, and I think
there is not enough money in the whole world for MS ever
to be able to keep up with the robustness and reliability
of Linux software.
> Just that there ISN'T almost any good software for Linux!
Wha??
I'm going to give Frank the benefit of the doubt here, and assume
that he means "the last time I looked", or that he is talking only
about "commercial shrink-wrapped software". Yeah, that must be it.
Otherwise, I'll have to assume that he has some personal vendetta
against Linux. Why else would he spread this sort of lie, this FUD?
Surely he didn't actually mean to say, "Just that there ISN'T almost
any good software for Linux!" (Even though that _IS_ what he said.)
Oh, wait. He said "almost". Well that lets him totally off the hook,
doesn't it?
Sly. Gotta put those Linux "whiners" in their place.
Good luck with your sales, Frank. I see no need for you ever to write
a version of Moyo Go for Linux, so please don't lump me in with those
"whiner losers" who keep "attacking" you for not writing one.
With "virtual machine" software (Google for "XEN" or see,
for example, <http://www.vmware.com/> ) these petty, useless
little O/S wars will soon -- it is to be sincerely hoped -- become
a thing of the past.
Oh, and Frank, I'm truly sorry for drifting off-topic in _YOUR_
thread. I suppose that you think rec.games.go should be used
only as an avenue for _your_ advertising, and I should keep quiet.
Perhaps I'm projecting, but the point is that I have as much
a right to set the record straight about Linux, as you do, Frank,
to come in here and continually bash it.
I'm replying to YOUR posts in r.g.g, hoping to counter the
broad assertions (lies) that have, at least when uttered by
other Windows proponents in the past -- of course you would
never do that, but if not, what the hell _are_ you doing? --
served to do nothing but spread fear, uncertainty and doubt
about the Linux operating system.
You are the one who posted the lies about Linux.
You can either stop lying, or not. Do it again and again,
and you'll continue to get your hand slapped again and again.
If not by me, then by someone else who actually knows the
truth.
Seriously, best of luck to you Frank. I mean that.
Because I think you're going to _need_ luck,
if you don't learn to hold your virtual tongue.
I don't think you want to alienate potential customers.
Do you?
As a final note, I must remark that, now that Frank
knows the _REAL_ reasons people choose to use
Linux (Frankly I think he's known all along), he'll either
stop spreading FUD about Linux, or... he won't.
Now he has a choice to make.
Surely he does not think that such unwarranted Linux-bashing
is going to increase the sales of his product? Hmmm, in a roundabout
way, I guess I can see it. If he can convince clueless newbies never
to go near Linux, they will have to use Microsoft... Then he'll have
them right where he wants them!
How clever.
No, wait. That's sarcastic. What I really mean is "how
short-sighted".
And by the way, did you notice that it upsets me more that
you lie about Linux, than it does for you to call me a "fool"?
There's something you might want to think about, too.
--
Orne Batmagoo
Batmagoo
Chris Lawrence wrote:
> If you have a reasonably powerful Linux box and a legit copy of Windows,
> download and install VMware Server (it's free at vmware.com), create a
> virtual machine and install Windows in it. You can then run MGS in
> that.
Dang it; that's what I shoulda said.
Instead I went on and on trying to convince folks that
a powerful Linux box was _better_ than Windows, and
trying to get Frank to stop lying about Linux.
Both of which are probably lost causes.
Even though Linux is.
And Frank does.
--
Orne Batmagoo
Frank de Groot
> And by the way, did you notice that it upsets me more that
> you lie about Linux, than it does for you to call me a "fool"?
>
> There's something you might want to think about, too.
Linux is a sieve, security-wise.
Nobody looking for vulnerabilities = thousands of them, lurking.
Nobody with a financial stake in patching known vulnerabilities = Linux is a
security nightmare, a disaster waiting to happen.
Linux, the Swiss cheese of Operating Systems.
carn...@gmail.com
> <carn...@gmail.com> wrote
> Obviously I wasn't referring to individuals but to the average.
i know
> I can testify that a few hundred people shelled out 69 USD for Moyo Go
> Studio for Windows, so what you "have seen" does not neccesarily reflect
> reality.
indeed. i was aware of that from your blog. i meant the
people i know personally
>
> > i'd consider buying your software if it was available for linux. i am
> > not interested in the high quality graphical features that only
> > windows can achieve (?),
>
> It is of course /possible/ under Linux, but to make it portable is a pain.
> Tens of thousands of IFDEFS in bloated code plus learning the idiosyncracies
> of a vastly different OS simply isn't worth 2 or 3% extra sales.
>
i can not say you are wrong. it depends also on how the
app is designed. i know it's too late now, but separating
the GUI from the DB and the search engine could have
been profitable. you could sell the engine and let others
do the GUI. anyway, you are giving the GUI for free. don't
listen too much to what i say, i don't know much about
your app features
> of controls. And I have a very solid strategy for future porting.
5000 hours is a solid strategy? that makes 31 mythical man-month
> > btw, you did not reply to what toolkit / developement environment
> > you are using. i hope it is not secret
>
> I am not here to give programming lessons.
disclosing you use delphi is a programming lesson? wow, thanks
> So far you have unjustly attacked
> me, ridiculed me, twisted my words and questioned my ability as a software
> developer.
i never meant to do any of the things you say i did. i am serious. i
just wanted to discuss and express my point of view
> In addition to that, you have offered "advice" that make me doubt
> you are anything but a clever 14 year old.
oh, you said i am clever. coming from your big ego i am really
flattered.
however, i am shocked that you worry so much about what
a 14 y.o. can say about you. it does not show confidence
> Let's make a deal: I continue
why should i make deals with you?
> spending time on you, if you tell me some basic common-decency things first,
> like who you are. I hate being shouted at from the dark by a stranger.
you are right here : i was not expecting to be anonymous (i am using my
real email address). my whole name is marc gonzalez-carnicer
Frank de Groot
> app is designed. i know it's too late now, but separating
> the GUI from the DB and the search engine could have
> been profitable.
What makes you think they /aren't/ separated??
> you could sell the engine and let others
> do the GUI.
> anyway, you are giving the GUI for free.
No I am not.
> don't listen too much to what i say,
Deal!
> 5000 hours is a solid strategy? that makes 31 mythical man-month
You should read what I said. FUTURE porting.
NOW it is 5000 hours. In the FUTURE (like in when you get out of school),
it's a different ballgame.
> however, i am shocked that you worry so much about what
> a 14 y.o. can say about you. it does not show confidence
No I am worried about spending too much time discussing all kinds of stuff
to people whom I imagine to be rather dense adults, but in fact I am talking
to very clever 11 year olds.
This is why I hate it that people don't put their full name on their
postings, so I can know whom I'm dealing with.
I have nothing against explaining software dev. to kids, but IF you are a
kid, don't pretend to be a grownup, that's all.
Because it eats too much of my time.
I love teaching kids programming, I did it 23 years ago, three years as a
volunteer.
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
> Linux is a sieve, security-wise.
> Nobody looking for vulnerabilities = thousands of them, lurking.
Huh? Actually, unlike Microsoft, there are thousands of people
looking for vulnerabilities. With Microsoft software, there is no way
for me to check for problems.
> Nobody with a financial stake in patching known vulnerabilities = Linux is a
> security nightmare, a disaster waiting to happen.
Wow, except for companies like IBM and Red Hat, which have a huge
financial stack in looking for and patching vulnerabilities. And all
those companies using it, as well.
Unfortunately, big companies using Microsoft software have a big stake
as well in patching its vulnerabilities, but they can't. They're just
stuck.
Thomas
Bob
denis feldmann
Possible. Strange how banks manage to use it without fear. Must be blind
and stupid...
Frank de Groot
> Possible. Strange how banks manage to use it without fear. Must be blind
> and stupid...
Of all companies on Earth, banks are amongst the most incompetent,
ESPECIALLY when it's about Internet-related stuff.
You are aware of the fact that many banks loose many millions of USD/year to
hacking-related fraud?
And security through obfuscation (relying on the fact that nobody hasn't
been looking for vulnerabilities in Linux yet) is no security at all.
You have tremendous difficulties with logical thinking and simple
argumentation.
"Banks use it" is NO argument to the security of Linux.
Frank de Groot
>> Linux, the Swiss cheese of Operating Systems.
>
> An ointeresting read:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/linux_v_windows_security/
No, by no means.
It is an irrational article by a Linux-bigot.
Saying "Myth - Fact" doesn't make it true.
He comes with the wrong myths! I don't disagree with his myths not his
facts, it's just that I have different facts that he declines to mention. Go
do some more Googling and find an article that doesn't support your own
view, a mind is like a parachute, works better when it's open. Looking for
the truth is a more productive strategy than looking for supporting views.
denis feldmann
You hae tremendous medical problems
Aidan Karley
wrote:
> "Frank de Groot" <fran...@online.no> writes:
>
> > Linux is a sieve, security-wise.
> > Nobody looking for vulnerabilities = thousands of them, lurking.
>
Oh well, Norway has a fairly efficient public health system and
police force, so there's not that much chance of him getting to cause
harm to anyone.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: +57d10' , -02d09' (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
Written at Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:09 +0100
Chris Lawrence
[Linux]
> Possible. Strange how banks manage to use it without fear. Must be blind and
> stupid...
That doesn't mean much - NASA uses Windows on board the space shuttle.
That conjures up thoughts of critical systems running Windows 98. In
fact they use it to run a file share so documents can be transferred
between laptops on the shuttle and the ground. All these arguments
about which OS is 'better' are utterly pointless. If banks use Linux
they use it where Linux is the best OS to use. It says nothing about
Linux per se.
--
Chris
Chris Lawrence
> Chris Lawrence wrote:
>
> > If you have a reasonably powerful Linux box and a legit copy of Windows,
> > download and install VMware Server (it's free at vmware.com), create a
> > virtual machine and install Windows in it. You can then run MGS in
> > that.
>
> Dang it; that's what I shoulda said.
>
> Instead I went on and on trying to convince folks that
> a powerful Linux box was _better_ than Windows, and
> trying to get Frank to stop lying about Linux.
Frank's got some blatantly wrong and stereotyped opinions of Linux but
anyone who states that "a powerful Linux box is better than Windows" is
equally wrong. Can't anyone see that the concept of 'better' is not an
absolute? I use all of Windows, Solaris and Linux and they're all
'better' than the others in their respective roles.
Frank creates Windows software so you need Windows to run it, end of
story. You can either work out a way to run Frank's Windows software,
or else not run it at all. While Frank ideas on Linux users are very
narrow-minded he's made his opinions clear and backed them up with sound
business reasoning.
> Both of which are probably lost causes.
Arguing religious beliefs is a lost cause indeed.
--
Chris
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
> Frank creates Windows software so you need Windows to run it, end of
> story. You can either work out a way to run Frank's Windows software,
> or else not run it at all. While Frank ideas on Linux users are very
> narrow-minded he's made his opinions clear and backed them up with sound
> business reasoning.
He's backed them up, but not with "sound business reasoning."
Reasoning which is founded on such wildly off-kilter ideas is hardly
"sound".
Thomas
Frank de Groot
(read more about him, this is just what I read today. The 'nix community
basically puked him out as a heretic and nobody seems to be interested in
funding him. Interesting, how 'nix security is considered to be superfluous
by even the largest corporations..)
Hans Kloss
does not prove anything as:
1. the institution can be reckless to use tools of questionable quality
and we have no means to say whether it is responsible or not.
2. the institution can (responsibly) use tools of questionable quality
where it does not matter too much (because they are cheaper or easier to
use) and tools of good quality where it does. Which one is which is
usually not said and we know no details so we cannot judge.
3. in case of open source based OS is that you need to specify which
distro and what has been done to it to adapt to specific needs of a
customer - if we do not know that we cannot judge either.
Criteria used to judge OS and software vary too and that free software
does not mean you do not have to pay.
Whether arguments about which OS is better and why are pointless is
another story. For Frank it is pointless as he made his decision and
there is no way to influence it so arguing here serves no purpose.
To have a meaningfull argument about the issue you would need to be
specific about the purpose for which you intend to use your software and
properties that are important to you. You can then take specs of the
software and make a decision.
//
Aidan Karley
> Frank creates Windows software so you need Windows to run it, end of
> story. You can either work out a way to run Frank's Windows software,
> or else not run it at all.
>
vehemence against Linux) a useful test case.
--
Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: +57d10' , -02d09' (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
Frank de Groot
> Does it run under Wine, I wonder? Possibly (given Frank's
> vehemence against Linux) a useful test case.
Please stop spreading lies about me.
I have nothing against Linux or those who use it.
I said that:
- Claims of Linux being "safe" or "safer" are baloney,
- I don't see the business case of me developing for it.
No, Wine does not emulate all Windows API calls that Moyo Go Studio uses.
Chris Lawrence
To clarify, I was referring to Frank's explanation of the investment
required by him in developing for non-Windows platforms, a market which
he feels is relatively small. I was not referring to Frank's ideas on
Linux itself, since I already covered those in the same paragraph above.
--
Chris
viri...@excite.com
Frank de Groot wrote:
> Moyo Go Studio's freeware SGF editor is straight from the popular Moyo Go
> Studio commercial Go software package.
>
> Download this free SGF editor here:
>
> http://www.moyogo.com/SGF_Editor.htm
>
> This SGF editor will be able to play back future Audio Go lessons made by
> the commercial version of Moyo Go Studio, and of course it's a full-fledged,
> industrial-strength SGF Editor.
>
> Features:
>
> - Stereo, studio-recorded sound
> - Playback of audio commentary
> - Unlimited Undo
> - Customizable SGF annotation (with "hide KGS circle"!)
> - Digital Byo-yomi clock (showing time left)
> - Auto-play mode
> - Guess (training) mode
> - Extremely powerful SGF search feature
> - 2D/3D board
> - Skinnable user interface
> - Skinnable Go board
> - Dockable windows and saveable docking layouts
> - Very extensive and very user-friendly SGF annotation features (using
> "rubberbanding")
> - Export to Sensei's Library format
> - Sensei-Search of words or sentences in the comments
> - Paste SGF from newsgroup, save position to ASCII, copy region to Jpeg,
> etc. etc.
>
> Help is online (work-in-progress, includes Moyo Go Studio Help - just ignore
> those parts :)
>
> http://www.moyogo.com/MoyoGo.htm
>
> Enjoy!
I use multigo. When I want audio, I put in Godsmack or something. If
multigo weren't free, then I'ld just use WinMGT, or Jago or Yago and
edit the .sgf file which is really just a text file. It's nice to have
pretty spots in front of you but they aren't required for
understanding. I already know what makes windows OS's so popular and
what Apple and Linux could do to increase their market share. It
wouldn't be easy but it would be possible,
A lot of times I just wish I could log of my MSOS, in they way one
would normally expect. It'ld be nice of they didn't lie to people, but
hey that's business.
Now about that game called go in the west.......