To Memorize or Not Memorize? How?

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Tom

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Oct 22, 2002, 12:41:09 PM10/22/02
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I was playing with another strong player the other day, and he said it would
be a good idea to remember/memorize the games that I play. Because to him,
he said that means you have put thought into the moves. I would love to
hear your opinion on remembering the games and if you do remember it. How
do you do it?

There's 361 possible points but a typical game there's about 200 moves on
average per game. How can one develop that kind of memory system?

Warm regards,
Tom


ro...@telus.net

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Oct 22, 2002, 1:43:21 PM10/22/02
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On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:41:09 GMT, "Tom" <tom...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I was playing with another strong player the other day, and he said it would
>be a good idea to remember/memorize the games that I play. Because to him,
>he said that means you have put thought into the moves.

It would certainly be better to put the thought in before you play
them....

>I would love to
>hear your opinion on remembering the games and if you do remember it. How
>do you do it?

IMO you will get much more strength benefit/time by memorizing pro
games. And after you have memorized a bunch of pro games, remembering
your own games will be easier.

-- Roy L

Fabian Beyer

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Oct 22, 2002, 4:21:05 PM10/22/02
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The first game I tried to remember was during the first tournament I
played. I was 3k at that time and it was a small tournament. So after
winning my first two games I got a 1d opponent (I resigned the game
after roughly 130 moves). I could replay that game 2 days later (though
luckily I dont remember it anymore :) ).
The point is: behind the moves are ideas. Or there should be. So you
don´t have to remember the moves, but the ideas. And you only have to
rethink that ideas in your head to be able to replay. If you played at
random on the other hand ..... well that would be like a "memory game"
with 400 card :) .Impossible to remember, unless you are some kind of a
genius.

regards
halti

md

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Oct 24, 2002, 3:22:34 AM10/24/02
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>The point is: behind the moves are ideas. Or there should be. So you
>don´t have to remember the moves, but the ideas. And you only have to
>rethink that ideas in your head to be able to replay.

I'm already able to remember each of my (bad) ideas (and to repeat them
again and again ) but how can i do with my opponents (good) ones ?

md.


Christopher Hayashida

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Oct 24, 2002, 8:33:28 PM10/24/02
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"md" <Max.D...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<ap87qg$2gj$1...@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>...

Sometimes you might remember an opponent's move because it caused you
additional trouble. You also might remember an opponent's move because
it was different than what you were expecting (or what you would have
played, given the same situation.) I've learned a lot from playing
stronger players in this fashion.

I've memorized one pro game from _Appreciating Famous Games_. I think
it helped with understanding shape and direction of play (as well as
possibly increasing my mental capacity, IMHO.)

On the other hand, I wouldn't memorize any of my games. I do try to
remember them right after I play (both to enter them into PilotGOne
and also to review.) I also think the wounds are still fresh and you
can remember your mistakes more clearly. :)

HTH,

Chris Hayashida

Henric Bergsåker

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Oct 27, 2002, 4:02:32 AM10/27/02
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"md" <Max.D...@wanadoo.fr> skrev i meddelandet reader10.wanadoo.fr...

>
> I'm already able to remember each of my (bad) ideas (and to repeat them
> again and again ) but how can i do with my opponents (good) ones ?
>
> md.

:-)
I think the best procedure whenever possible is to go over the game with
your opponent immediately after the game, discuss it and learn how the
opponent
was reasoning at certain stages of the game. Going through the game together
once it is usually also much easier to remember the sequence of moves.
Besides game comments on your games by stronger players, I believe that
discussing the game with your opponent is one of the best ways to improve.

best regards,
Henric


ro...@telus.net

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Oct 27, 2002, 12:31:20 PM10/27/02
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On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:02:32 GMT, "Henric Bergsåker"
<henrik....@telia.com> wrote:

>I believe that
>discussing the game with your opponent is one of the best ways to improve.

And if you can get a stronger player to add his comments, all the
better. Perhaps the most effective lesson I ever had was when I was 9
kyu. After playing a 4-stone game with a 5-kyu, I was fortunate
enough to have a 6-dan sit down and start commenting on it. He opened
my eyes to so many possibilities I had never considered before.
_Two_weeks_ later, I was 6-kyu.

-- Roy L

Dieter Verhofstadt

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Oct 28, 2002, 9:29:07 AM10/28/02
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"Tom" <tom...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<Fcft9.9567$U97.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

> I was playing with another strong player the other day, and he said it would
> be a good idea to remember/memorize the games that I play. Because to him,
> he said that means you have put thought into the moves.

What he probably means is that the ease with which you can recreate
the game reflects the amount of thinking that went into it.

>I would love to
> hear your opinion on remembering the games and if you do remember it. How
> do you do it?

Observing the players in our club who are able to replay a game
(typically the next day, up to 200 moves) and those who are not
(typically stuck at moves 10, 20, 30, right after the game) I notice
the following behaviour:

Those who are not able, usually spend an equal amount of thinking time
on each move. As if they were to choose between some 300 alternatives
each time.

Those who are able, spend a lot of time on crucial moments, then play
out the subsequent moves almost instantaneously. As if they choose
between "lines of play", then execute them (if evaluated as positive)
until that line breaks down or a major change in the position calls
for a new evaluation.

I think this difference is key to remembering games. The latter way of
thinking is the natural one in mind games. Of course one must
continuously be aware of possible flaws in the line of play one has
chosen, which become clearer as the moves appear on the board.

Dieter

Tom

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Oct 28, 2002, 11:19:33 AM10/28/02
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I found the last statement was very insightful. Can you clarify for me as
what you mean by "lines of play?" Is that the strategy or the tactics used?
Also, does remembering the game get easier as one play more games?

Warm regards,
Tom

"Dieter Verhofstadt" <Dieter_Ve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbfd31ad.02102...@posting.google.com...

Tom

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Oct 28, 2002, 11:22:33 AM10/28/02
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Curious to know how one find a dan to comment a game? Having a strong
player commenting on a game sure makes a difference, especially face 2 face.

Warm regards,
Tom

<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:3dbc22bf...@news.telus.net...

Tim Hunt

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Oct 28, 2002, 1:11:10 PM10/28/02
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Tom wrote:
> Curious to know how one find a dan to comment a game? Having a strong
> player commenting on a game sure makes a difference, especially face 2 face.

If you are lucky, you will have a local go club with strong players in it.

Or, you could consider travelling to a tournament with some strong
players in it.

If you can't find a strong player in person, you can at least get
comments on your games: <http://gtl.jeudego.org/>.

Tim.

Message has been deleted

Alain

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Oct 30, 2002, 5:21:20 AM10/30/02
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"Tom" <tom...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<psdv9.10612$6F4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

> I found the last statement was very insightful. Can you clarify for me as
> what you mean by "lines of play?" Is that the strategy or the tactics used?
> Also, does remembering the game get easier as one play more games?
>
> Warm regards,
> Tom

When you become stronger, you start to think in sequences of moves.
The most staightforward example I can think of is a ladder. Normally,
when you have understood how it works, you "read" it before launching
it. This means that you know when playing the first move what you are
going to play if your opponent tries to escape. You don't recalculate
the ladder at every move of the sequence.

In less straightforward situations, stronger players apply a similar
thinking process: they want to achieve a purpose (capturing stones,
making two eyes, building a wall, invading a corner, erasing a
moyo,...) and they know by experience what is the "normal way" to do
that. They also know by experience what the "normal" follow-up(s) of
the selected move should be (learning standard sequences or proverbs
can help). Of course, this can be dangerous, because sometimes the
"normal" move doesn't work, but that is another question.

As to your second question, it depends on how you think during your
game. If you start thinking in terms of achieving tactical or
strategical goals (this usually implies thinking in terms of sequences
of moves) instead of thinking move by move, you will find that it is
much easier to remember your games.

Alain

Sergio Parimbelli

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Oct 30, 2002, 8:35:42 AM10/30/02
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OC, I don't know what Dieter means. I would think of josekis and general
ideas, like building an outside wall to form a great potential territory
or going for territory when your opponent's influence has little value.
Against a stone on the 4-4 point, for instance, if I think that I should
play in that corner, I will spend (too much) time considering:
approaching or invading at the 3-3 point?
if approaching, on which side?
high or low, 1 or 2 points away?

My decision will depend on the expected answers, and if my opponent
plays as I expected my next moves will be very fast until he plays
something unexpected or I come to another turning point I had not yet
thought about.

And yes, remembering the game becomes easier the more you play. To go
back to my example, if you invade at the 3-3 point, your opponent will
block in most cases at 3-4 on one side and you will extend on the
other 4-3 point. So, remembering one decision tells you 2 moves,
actually about a dozen if both play the most common continuation.

Sergio Parimbelli

Tom schrieb:


>
> I found the last statement was very insightful. Can you clarify for me as
> what you mean by "lines of play?" Is that the strategy or the tactics used?
> Also, does remembering the game get easier as one play more games?
>
> Warm regards,
> Tom
>
> "Dieter Verhofstadt" <Dieter_Ve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> > (...)

F.B.M. Vanderstappen

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Oct 30, 2002, 10:13:30 AM10/30/02
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Hi,

It's always nice to see an email discussion on this newsgroup that actually is about Go :))
So I can't resist joining in.

I asolutely agree with Dieter in that strong players tend to spend the largest amount of the allotted time on
evaluating (mentally) the result of specific sequences of moves. That is to say they read some moves ahead,
evaluate the position that would be reached after playing out those moves, do the same for some variations, and
choose the optimum one.

The amount of time spent on doing this hudgely surpasses the amount of time spent on "finding" or verifying
individual moves.

This tendency has a strong impact on the ease with which strong players can remember games, since they only have
to remember certain key choices. The sequences are more or less self evident.
Players who think long over every move in the opening will have more difficulty in remembering their games.

Next to this I think that the factors that influence the ability to replay games the strongest are:

Experience. It is my experience that after the first ten moves 1 or 2, and hardly ever more than 3 or 4 moves
automatically pop up mentally. I merely have to choose among them . The same will happen when replaying.
This intuitiove feel will help replaying enormously. Only when an opponent consistently deviates from what you
would expect as being "natural" play, will you encounter difficiulty in replaying a game.

Training. After you have done it a few times, it will become more or less second nature to you.
As a test for the concistency of your own game, you could try replaying a few pro games from a book, and then
replaying them again from memory. Is this easier or more difficult than replaying your own games ?

Best regards,

Filip Vanderstappen


Dieter Verhofstadt wrote:

--
Drs Filip B.M. Vanderstappen
W: 010-4081345
T: 071-5210717
Wetenschappelijk Docent
Informatica&Economie
Faculteit Economische Wetenschappen
Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam

"Wie durch Fluch er mir geriet, verflucht sei dieser Ring...."
Alberich, der Ring des Nibelungen

vanderstappen.vcf

Thinkit

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Oct 30, 2002, 1:44:38 PM10/30/02
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"Tom" <tom...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<Fcft9.9567$U97.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

Please stop using decimal. Repost using hexadecimal. Just stop using decimal.

Thinkit

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Oct 30, 2002, 1:51:08 PM10/30/02
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"Tom" <tom...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<psdv9.10612$6F4.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

> I found the last statement was very insightful. Can you clarify for me as
> what you mean by "lines of play?" Is that the strategy or the tactics used?
> Also, does remembering the game get easier as one play more games?
>
> Warm regards,
> Tom

Could be both. A joseki is the easiest way to classify a line of
play, or a fuseki in the beginning. Any sort of reading to save a
group would be a line of play as well. All it is is an expected
sequence of moves by you and your opponent that requires no thought
until the end.

Simon Goss

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Oct 30, 2002, 3:21:36 PM10/30/02
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Thinkit writes

>Please stop using decimal. Repost using hexadecimal. Just stop using
>decimal.

<sigh> Just by calling it hexadecimal, you're using decimal yourself.
--
Simon

Tom

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Oct 30, 2002, 4:01:05 PM10/30/02
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Thanks for all the people who have given great insight on this thread. It's
really helpful to see these comments for beginner like myself. I'm starting
to "see" the sequences of moves in my games and it does seem like it's
easier to remember after seeing these suggestions.

Warm regards,
Tom

"Alain" <alain....@cec.eu.int> wrote in message
news:c3448d9.02103...@posting.google.com...

-

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Oct 30, 2002, 6:09:20 PM10/30/02
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> Thinkit writes
>> Please stop using decimal. Repost using hexadecimal.
>> Just stop using decimal.


I do not agree with this.


Simon Goss <si...@gosoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <sigh> Just by calling it hexadecimal, you're using decimal yourself.


Earlier we had entertained a discussion concerning the single BPF
hexadecimal digit computations of pi, via the Ramanujan modular form,
yet there is no decimal form given, so conversion between the two is
(at present) not likened to a Celsius-Fahrenheit matter. We cannot
rely on word-games here to claim `hexadecimal' uses `decimal'."

- regards
- jb


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