"Rules of the Shadow" in Amber RPG
Maurer, John Joseph
I was wondering about how various shadow specific rules affected
Amberites. I know that Amberites will adjust to varied time streams. (I.E. If
Arthur, prince of Amber, goes to a world where the time is 1/2 that of Amber,
he slows to their time rather than seeing everyone walk arround slowly. Magic
and Tech also work on various levels in various shadows.
Some worlds have more esoteric "rules" that are followed in their
shadow. For those that play the TORG RPG, they are best expressed as World
Rules. Would a rule that "Everyone in the Shadow Speaks Backwards" affect an
Amberite. Or "Everyone in the Shadow acts in a Theatrical Manner." I believe
that they would. What are other opinions?
IAN
Dave Sherohman
Hmm.... I think this is apples and oranges, actually. Differences in time flow
are fundamental physical laws, and the Amberites adjust for it. Funky patterns
of speech and action are psychological/social laws, and I would think that they
would not affect Amberites, though the local would think the Amberites to be
insane and, possibly, vice versa.
In the final analysis, there would have to be some limitations on how things
take place - an Amberite going to a new Shadow where chemical laws are such that
combustion works differently (note that Shadow Earth <-> Amber is a case of
this), either a) the Amberite continues to operate on their native chemical laws,s
b) the chemical composition of the Amberite changes, thus allowing combustion to
continue under the new laws, ot c) the Amberite instantly dies because his cells
are no longer able to burn glucose. Obviously, either a or b is the correct
case...
es...@ima.umn.edu
Lochinvar of Amber, Prince and Heir of Terolon
Steerpike
Based on extrapolation from the books:
>Would a rule that "Everyone in the Shadow Speaks Backwards" affect an
>Amberite.
That depends on what you mean by "speaking backwards." If you mean
that they would say "Hello there. Nice to meet you." like "There
hello. You meet to nice." Then it is basically a different language
and not an aspect of the shadow. If you mean everyone literally
talks backwards, i.e. hold their dinner conversations over breakfast
and vice versa -- this really isn't workable. And time streams don't
run backwards, so that gets rid of another explanation. Basically,
the Amberite doesn't "adapt" to this at all, in any case, because it
isn't an aspect of the shadow; it is an aspect of the inhabitants.
Time speed affects Amberites the same way that gravity does -- it is
there, it's part of the universe. Amberites don't "change" at all
when entering a different shadow.
>Or "Everyone in the Shadow acts in a Theatrical Manner."
Again, no. Amberites stay the same no matter WHERE they go. Of
course, acting theatrically is no big trick to an Amberite, I would
imagine, so he can imitate the local culture easily.
Did you read the books? They are quite clear, it seems to me, on the
fact that Amberites do not change when moving through shadow.
Richard G Tomasso
>shadow. For those that play the TORG RPG, they are best expressed as World
>Rules. Would a rule that "Everyone in the Shadow Speaks Backwards" affect an
>Amberite. Or "Everyone in the Shadow acts in a Theatrical Manner." I believe
>that they would. What are other opinions?
If the Amberite wanted to interact in a "normal" manner with the inhabitants,
then yes it would. Though I would guess an Amberite could possibly ignore
some of the rules if he wanted to interact with another Amberite so no one else
could understand him.
David P. Martin
In article 20...@news2.cis.umn.edu, es...@cs35b.cs.umn.edu (Dave Sherohman) writes:
>Hmm.... I think this is apples and oranges, actually. Differences in time flow
>are fundamental physical laws, and the Amberites adjust for it. Funky patterns
>of speech and action are psychological/social laws, and I would think that they
>would not affect Amberites, though the local would think the Amberites to be
>insane and, possibly, vice versa.
I agree. Amberites wouldn't adjust their mental patterns when shifting
shadows - otherwise, they'd end up getting lost in some bizarre shadow,
with no idea who they are. After all, in most shadows, the people
don't even believe in the idea of Amber. If an Amberites mental
patterns changed to that of the Shadow, the Amberite would constantly
be forgetting that Amber existed.
>In the final analysis, there would have to be some limitations on how things
>take place - an Amberite going to a new Shadow where chemical laws are such that
>combustion works differently (note that Shadow Earth <-> Amber is a case of
>this), either a) the Amberite continues to operate on their native chemical laws,s
>b) the chemical composition of the Amberite changes, thus allowing combustion to
>continue under the new laws, ot c) the Amberite instantly dies because his cells
>are no longer able to burn glucose. Obviously, either a or b is the correct
>case...
If b is the one you choose, then it would be very easy for an Amberite
to stumble into a Shadow where the physical laws made it impossible for
the Amberite to exist (for example, a Shadow where molecules don't bond
together at all). I think that a is the only real choice. Amberites
have enough reality in them for them to sort of carry a localized set
of rules with them. The next question is, what about Shadow humans who
are transported to other Shadows ?
>es...@ima.umn.edu
>Lochinvar of Amber, Prince and Heir of Terolon
Dave
aka Kyle, Prince of Amber
John P. Speno
As a real being, i.e. An Amberite, you are you no matter were
you are. Thus, if in a shadow were people talked backwards, you'd
talk however you'd normally talk.
--
========================+======================================================
John P. Speno | "If you lose a wager to the King of the Sea,
Souless Student | you'll spend the rest of forever in the cage
sp...@clam.rutgers.edu | with me." - Sting. The Soul Cages.
========================+======================================================
VOTE FOR REN & STIMPY -- THE HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY TICKET -- REN & STIMPY IN '92!
Doug Easterly
Re: whether Amberites would be affected mentally or physically
by Shadows they enter.... In the second series, there _is_ a shadow
where Merlin is mentally affected by a shadow... Luke's "bad trip."
It is _possible_. Also, Zelazny's books always hint at how
dangerous Hellriding is. Presumably, an Amberite can shift to a
hostile environment. HOWEVER, it also seems likely that when an
Amberite learns to travel shadows,the Amberite that is taught
how to avoid stumbling into places that will kill him/her and how
to keep your wits about them when they travel.
Of course, the next question is "Yes, but do they ADAPT to hostile
or even other environments?" I'd have to say no. After all, Amberites
who have walked the pattern have had the pattern and its rigidity/
order IMPRINTED on them. Also, the mind altering affect I mentioned
above is not positive... it is, rather, a rather serious threat to
Merlin's physical and mental well-being. And physical changes seem
to affect Amberites not at all in either series (though their shadow
clothing and personal items change frequently and easily.)
All, of course, IMO.
______________________
Doug Easterly ha...@ucsco.ucsc.edu
Nerd of Shadow
John S. Novak III
> As a real being, i.e. An Amberite, you are you no matter were
>you are. Thus, if in a shadow were people talked backwards, you'd
>talk however you'd normally talk.
I really don't think this is important.
What's important is how does the Amberite interract with the rest
of the universe.
Working off of material from the novels (I haven't bought the
game, but when I have enough money to drop on a game that I may
never play, I probably will-- it looks really interesting from
what I've seen of it.) I would rule this way:
Amberites do indeed remain more or less constant no
matter where they go. However, the shadows themselves tend to
smooth things out for the Amberites. After all, Corwin himself
said that the Shadows lied for him, making him seem youthful and
strong while in Earth. Also, the shadows themselves apparently
act as translators, since every Amberite who ever came to Earth
spoke English effortlessly, yet (if I recall properly) Corwin's
friend had to learn to speak Tharri. Corwin could also force his
words to be heard as Tharri even while in Earth.
So, if Talim, bastard son of Osric, somehow wound up in a shadow
where everyone spoke 'backwards' everyone would be able to
understand him without any problem, and vice-versa. However, if
Talim and his cousin Logan, son of Finndo wanted to have a
relatively quiet conversation, they could simply speak very
quickly in their normal version of speech (presumeably this
shadow speaks reverse Tharri.)
Not only that, if the pair suddenly hopped off to a shadow where
everyone had pointy ears and dressed in forest green, they'd
probably look like that, too, even to each other. Most likely a
very low-level, subconscious shape-change (when Corwin mentioned
that the shadows lied for him, he had no idea that Amberites
could shape change...)
And if someone actually went off into a shadow where the nuclear
forces didn't work, I don't know what would happen. I'd probably
not allow it, on the basis that their subconscious won't _let_
them go to a place where they die instantly. Either that or they
shapechange instinctively to be able to handle it.
--
John S. Novak, III dark...@camelot.bradley.edu
"So this is the sword of immortality, huh? What's it doing in a
crypt?"
Maurer, John Joseph
>
>Re: whether Amberites would be affected mentally or physically
>by Shadows they enter.... In the second series, there _is_ a shadow
>where Merlin is mentally affected by a shadow... Luke's "bad trip."
>It is _possible_. Also, Zelazny's books always hint at how
>dangerous Hellriding is. Presumably, an Amberite can shift to a
>hostile environment. HOWEVER, it also seems likely that when an
>Amberite learns to travel shadows,the Amberite that is taught
>how to avoid stumbling into places that will kill him/her and how
>to keep your wits about them when they travel.
The "bad trip" scene in the Third book is what I use to draw some ideas from.
Merlin actually could NOT leave the shadow under normal means due to the
unusuallness of the shadow. I was thinking that this would allow Amberites to
be affected by things such as "The Force" (tm) which may just be an odd sort of
sorcery. I suppose all such things as The Law of Drama or such sort could be
explained away by sorcery. I will keep that in mind as I write scenarios for
next semester. (I get to play right now)
>Of course, the next question is "Yes, but do they ADAPT to hostile
>or even other environments?" I'd have to say no. After all, Amberites
>who have walked the pattern have had the pattern and its rigidity/
>order IMPRINTED on them. Also, the mind altering affect I mentioned
>above is not positive... it is, rather, a rather serious threat to
>Merlin's physical and mental well-being. And physical changes seem
>to affect Amberites not at all in either series (though their shadow
>clothing and personal items change frequently and easily
I would say that some thing would affect them and others would not. Do
Amberites have to learn a new language whenever they go to a new shadow? I
suppose that they could being immortal and having nothing better to do. Some
traps can be put onto shadows by more powerful Amberites (Control a Shadow's
Destiny). These traps presumably would affect other Amberites, creating the Law
of the Shadow effect.
IAN
Doug Easterly
>Amberites have to learn a new language whenever they go to a new shadow? I
>suppose that they could being immortal and having nothing better to do. Some
>traps can be put onto shadows by more powerful Amberites (Control a Shadow's
>Destiny). These traps presumably would affect other Amberites, creating the Law
>of the Shadow effect.
>
>IAN
As far as languages go, I'd say the books point toward the idea that
characters have to learn new languages. It's just that most places
the Amberites go either speak Thari (or a dialect thereof) or are
familiar to the Amberites. For instance, Merlin uses English as a
"code" when talking with some people, and I seem to dimly remember
(and I may be wrong in my memory) passages where languages aren't
understood.
In any case, all this stuff should not be set entirely in stone. Such
barriers should exist or not exist to further the plot. That's how
Zelazny used such devices, after all...
Doug "maybe I should go back to work now" Easterly
ha...@ucsco.ucsc.edu
Peter J. Trudell
IMHO, as a player in the Amber RPG, I feel that it would be like going to a
different country, you would do it to fit in, much less because you are forced
to talk or act that way. The time rules are just 'natural law' if you will.
In the books, Zelazny mentions that the languages in Shadow differ from that
spoken in Amber, Thari, but are similar in many ways. We liken this to the
'romantic' languages descending from Latin.
again, just IMHO.
--Red
--
SRONCE, FRANK T
I think they would TEND to affect amberites. But whereas the locals would likely
be incapable of resisting the law, Amberites could, probably pretty easily.
Shadow has little power over Substance, and once they've walked the Pattern,
Amberites have a LOT of power over Shadow.
For instance, a World Law like "everyone is either very good or very evil and
their appearance reflects this" would TEND to affect visiting Amberites. They
would suffer mood swings from very good to very evil and their clothing and
appearance would probably shift wildly with their moods. But as long as they
kept shifting shadow to keep themselves from being affected (a difficult and
fatiguing task) they could ignore the world laws. Of course, a shadow with an
extremely strict world-law would cause Amberites who violated the law to be
forced into a similar adjacent shadow.
And of course with Advanced Pattern you could TURN OFF the world law...
(*chortle*) I love the idea of seeing the locals try to deal with Possibilities
that they couldn't even conceive of a few minutes ago...
The difficult bit is convincing an Amberite to travel to a shadow that actually
makes things difficult for him. Having seen my rules for the damage ratings of
tech weapons, my players have already decided to avoid tech shadows like the
black plague.
Major Kiz
SRONCE, FRANK T
>>Amberites. I know that Amberites will adjust to varied time streams. (I.E. If
>>Arthur, prince of Amber, goes to a world where the time is 1/2 that of Amber,
>>he slows to their time rather than seeing everyone walk arround slowly. Magic
>>and Tech also work on various levels in various shadows.
>>
>> Some worlds have more esoteric "rules" that are followed in their
>>shadow. For those that play the TORG RPG, they are best expressed as World
>>Rules. Would a rule that "Everyone in the Shadow Speaks Backwards" affect an
>>Amberite. Or "Everyone in the Shadow acts in a Theatrical Manner." I believe
>>that they would. What are other opinions?
>
>Hmm.... I think this is apples and oranges, actually. Differences in time flow
>are fundamental physical laws, and the Amberites adjust for it. Funky patterns
>of speech and action are psychological/social laws, and I would think that they
>would not affect Amberites, though the local would think the Amberites to be
>insane and, possibly, vice versa.
In your TORG system, "funky patterns of speech and action" may be required by
the local laws of physics. The locals would have difficulty conceiving of
anything that could violate those laws, and would not be able to produce one.
For instance, you could argue that our Earth has a World Law that "No one can
ever be COMPLETELY good or completely evil." We can just barely conceive of
such a person, but you won't find one. (of course, some people will argue that
I'm wrong, and that completely evil people DO exist; I just don't believe it)
A completely evil being from another world might find itself experiencing
moral qualms if it were moved to our world. (see the Fish Police comic book
series for a good example of what happens to "stereotypical" heroes and villains
when they suddenly gain free-will)
Of course, many people simply HATE the idea of things like morals being
restricted by natural law. Certainly, the concept never appears in the Amber
series, at least not that I've noticed.
The only real value to the World Laws is that they are necessary to produce
"genre universes" that aren't consistent with the real world. A "Dick Tracy",
the heroes are always noble, the girls are always innocent, and the villains
are all hideous universe just isn't compatible with our universe unless you
have World Laws or some-such to make it feasible.
Major Kiz
David G Thaler
>I agree. Amberites wouldn't adjust their mental patterns when shifting
>shadows - otherwise, they'd end up getting lost in some bizarre shadow,
>with no idea who they are. After all, in most shadows, the people
>don't even believe in the idea of Amber. If an Amberites mental
>patterns changed to that of the Shadow, the Amberite would constantly
>be forgetting that Amber existed.
>If b is the one you choose, then it would be very easy for an Amberite
>to stumble into a Shadow where the physical laws made it impossible for
>the Amberite to exist (for example, a Shadow where molecules don't bond
>together at all). I think that a is the only real choice. Amberites
>have enough reality in them for them to sort of carry a localized set
>of rules with them. The next question is, what about Shadow humans who
>are transported to other Shadows ?
>
>aka Kyle, Prince of Amber
While, as has been pointed out, Amberites can suffer some effects
of shadows, like Luke's trip, it cannot (IMHO) change their personality.
The trip was just an effect as if they were under the influence of
a drug (in some shadows, there might be some chemical in the air
to do this :).
Shadow humans don't change either. For example, Corwin thought nothing
of the fact that Ganelon didn't change a bit when traversing shadows
(like when he exiled him), or that Bleys' and Corwin's armies remained
the same. They didn't suddenly start speaking Thari or anything.
Of course there exist shadows that are harmful, and traps can even send
one there (Trump traps, whatever... Luke got trapped, Brand got
trapped, etc). No Amberite would intentionally go there.
A non-nuclear force universe could not be entered, since no Amberite
would willingly shift to there, and I don't believe there's any way
to send someone else to somewhere you can't get to yourself.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Dave Thaler
Mark J Urbin
>>Re: whether Amberites would be affected mentally or physically
>>by Shadows they enter.... In the second series, there _is_ a shadow
>>where Merlin is mentally affected by a shadow... Luke's "bad trip."
>>It is _possible_. Also, Zelazny's books always hint at how
>>dangerous Hellriding is. Presumably, an Amberite can shift to a
>>hostile environment. HOWEVER, it also seems likely that when an
>>Amberite learns to travel shadows,the Amberite that is taught
>>how to avoid stumbling into places that will kill him/her and how
>>to keep your wits about them when they travel.
>The "bad trip" scene in the Third book is what I use to draw some ideas from.
>Merlin actually could NOT leave the shadow under normal means due to the
Actually Merlin could start shifting shadow at the `Alice' bar. It's just
that the shifting goes much faster when you're moving. He could have shifted
by pacing circles around the bar, but that's SO SLOW! You have to start with
small details and the growling beasts weren't small details.
Remember that if an enemy (this includes hostile critters) is close enough
to you, they can actually follow you through shadow. This is another reason
for putting some distance between you and your foes. Once you get far enough
away, you can shift to a shadow where they aren't. Of course near by shadows
may have a shade of the attacker ready to cleave you in multiple pieces, so
the key here is to keep moving and keep shifting shadow.
Of course it may be faster to stand fast and dispatch the foe.
--
Mark Urbin gr...@world.std.com These opinions are mine.
"Justice Department studies show that armed citizens are much less likely to
suffer losses or personal injury from thieves" -- Washington Post 1/7/92
Michael Lane Wilson
|>In article whatever#2, someone#2 writes:
|>>In the final analysis, there would have to be some limitations on how things
|>>take place - an Amberite going to a new Shadow where chemical laws are such
|>>that combustion works differently (note that Shadow Earth <-> Amber is a case
|>>of this), either a) the Amberite continues to operate on their native chemical
|>>because his cells are no longer able to burn glucose. Obviously, either a or
|>>b is the correct case...
|>
|>If b is the one you choose, then it would be very easy for an Amberite
|>to stumble into a Shadow where the physical laws made it impossible for
|>the Amberite to exist (for example, a Shadow where molecules don't bond
|>together at all). I think that a is the only real choice. Amberites
|>have enough reality in them for them to sort of carry a localized set
|>of rules with them. The next question is, what about Shadow humans who
|>are transported to other Shadows ?
What about the obvious answer --- that Amberites simply don't go to
such places? I don't think any of them have as yet gone to any places where
the physical laws keep them from functioning. And it wouldn't only be Amberites,
either, you notice, as witness Bill Roth, who seems to get along just fine in
Amber, as noted in Blood of Amber, I believe, among others.
There was only one case I can think of where an Amberite antered a shadow
with radically different laws and didn't seem to interact with them at all, and
I don't think that one applies. (Random, trying to rescue Brand, didn't seem to
affect the orbits of the tumbling boulders.)
In any event, consider what would happen as an Amberite went closer and
closer to such a shadow. (S)He would get gradually sicker and sicker as (s)he
went along, until finally succumbing at arrival. You have your character try
it; I'll sit back in Shadow Malibu and take your calls for you. 8^)
--
___________________________ |
| | | Mike Wilson, the Hierarch:
| No Sig is a Good Sig. | | Wil...@rpi.edu
|_________________________| | Hier...@acm.rpi.edu
Object Ed
> Shadow items
> (including, presumably, people) don't appear to have the same substance as
> Amberites; observe that modes of transportation, clothing, currency, and such
> things change automatically when shadow-shifting (although I think I remember
> someone (Random?) stating that this could be prevented).
In the first book of the Chronicles of Amber, in the beginning of the book, while Corwin was still suffering from amnesia, they stopped to get some gas. Corwin asked if their money was good, and Random told him to look at his money, and said, 'See, I took care of everything' or something like that. It doesn't appear to be an automatic process, just one which is relitively easy if you remember to do it. And if modes of transport change, then why were they stuck with the car? It seems that the car would
have been replaced with wagons several times on the way there, and staying that way once gas no longer worked.
However, no, they don't have the same substance, they are shadows.
Ed Grimm