Shadowrun Books: The Renraku AI
Scott Parish
Secrets of Power series, and was wondering even more about the
AI that Dodger encounters in the matrix.
In the first book he encounters the AI in Renraku's computer
system, this is fine. In the second book, Dodger finds, or
rather, is found by the AI in the Hidden Circle's computer
system.
Questions:
* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix running?
* What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
* Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would be
in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
* Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
My thoughts:
I think the AI is 'in love' with Dodger, or at least curious about
him. He was one of the first people the AI encountered in the Renraku
system, and this is why the AI has taken a shine to Dodger.
I also believe that if any company were to design a competant AI it
would be Renraku as they could take advantage of the installed base
of hardware and tweek the AI to take advanage of that hardware.
(ie. Renraku-built backdoors, undocumented commands, etc.)
--
Scott Parish a.k.a. par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu ----------------------------------------------
"Some people quitely reveal in the manner of the meek, Some people shout the way they feel to a radical degree...
Some people speak with subtleness and don't rely on words at all." -- MWS
Kent Jenkins
>
>Questions:
>* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix
> running?
Normal one? Dunno, no AI rules yet. <Maybe Virtual Realities will take care
of that, but I didn't see anything in there like that.> I would say 100% since
it was "officially written."
>* What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
I think you got it. Curiosity. Dodger was probably the first <or first real
good> decker it saw. Curiosity about what, though, who knows?
>* Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would be
> in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
I doubt it. No, it doesn't really say.
>* Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
AIs are <or will be> the first true alien intelligences we'll have contact
with. (Assuming rumors aren't true.) Explain an alien's conception of "love".
I'm not worrying until the third book. Any questions from there are going
/stright/ to the author.
>I also believe that if any company were to design a competant AI it
>would be Renraku as they could take advantage of the installed base
>of hardware and tweek the AI to take advanage of that hardware.
>(ie. Renraku-built backdoors, undocumented commands, etc.)
What? Not Cray? Not Sony? Not /Fuchi?/ Just because them thar writer
concentrated on Renraku doesn't mean that the other folks' systems wouldn't
have handled well in a pinch.
[For those whom have it, look in the Seattle Sourcebook in the Renraku
Arcology. I'm not sure where, but there are obvious indications that FASA has
more of the Shadowrun "future history" planned out than one would normally
think. Nasty buggers.]
-Kent Jenkins
("Thenomain")
Andrew David Weiland
par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Scott Parish) writes,
>Questions:
>* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix
>running?
It seems the AI can run the matrix. The question is whether the AI
sends out a sensory projection, like a decker, or is actually present in
the matrix (the way IC is present).
If the first is true, the AI (Morgan Le Fay?) must have a hardware body
somewhere; the only other option is that it's a self-replicating
pattern. I don't think Renkaru would dare to create such a thing; it
could and would make endless duplicates of itself. Of course if the AI
can send out one sensory projection, it may be able to send out another.
Each projection could be a separate individual (the fact that the
projection called itself Morgan Le Fay does not mean the AI goes by that
name) but each would be tied to the AI.
If the second is true, then Renkaru has no control over its creation.
This is also untenable for the same reason; Renkaru wouldn't create it
in the first place. Then again, the creation could be an accident. . .
>* What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
>* Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would
>be in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
>* Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
>
>My thoughts:
>
>I think the AI is 'in love' with Dodger, or at least curious about
>him. He was one of the first people the AI encountered in the Renraku
>system, and this is why the AI has taken a shine to Dodger.
I'd say the AI is more curious than lovestruck; i might not say the same
for Dodger. I wouldn't be surprised if the AI (or at least Morgan) has
been following Dodger's actions previously, and only chose to reveal
itself in Camelot Matrix.
>I also believe that if any company were to design a competant AI it
>would be Renraku as they could take advantage of the installed base
>of hardware and tweek the AI to take advanage of that hardware.
>(ie. Renraku-built backdoors, undocumented commands, etc.)
One big question is how would an AI exist in game terms. Obviously it
posseses Intellegence; but it also possesses intuition which separates
it from a pure computer. In Shadowrun Intellegence and Intuition are
rated as the same thing. Other game systems are different. I'd also
say that an AI must possess Charisma (the ability to change its actions
to interact with others) and Willpower (the ability to override its
programming). This would hold true for other game systems, though the
names of the stats would be different. Physical stats would be based on
the body the AI occupies,, if any. Reaction in the matrix would be
based solely on Intellegence and implanted hardware (if any).
An AI could have any number of mental skills, and physical skills if it
has a body to use them in. It would possess memory to store these
skills like skillsofts, and for other data and programs. I don't want
to get into whether or not an AI has an essence, or even a magic rating.
I'll leave that up to Jayhawk/Caroline to discover.
Note that the "three stats necessary" might not necessarily be true in
your gameworld. In Neuromancer, Wintermute possessed
Intellegence/Intuition and Willpower but no Charisma. The Neuromancer
seemed to possess Intellegence/Intuition and Charisma, but no Willpower.
Also no other AI in that world possesses all three attributes, which
are the threshold for true self awareness (and the Turing police
intended to keep it that way).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew D. M. U. Weiland | aw...@andrew.cmu.edu |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I for one am glad we're not all alike, because then |
| we'd all like the same things and there wouldn't be |
| enough haggis to go around" |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Purple Dragons! EVERYWHERE!!!
In article <> par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Scott Parish) writes:
>I just finished (I know--'bout time) the second book in the
>Secrets of Power series, and was wondering even more about the
Disclaimer: I haven't even read the first book.
>In the first book he encounters the AI in Renraku's computer
>system, this is fine. In the second book, Dodger finds, or
>rather, is found by the AI in the Hidden Circle's computer
>system.
Fun fun. You probably should have inserted a spoiler warning, tho
>Questions:
>* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix running?
Why wouldn't it be able to? I mean, when you get right down to it,
running is just a bunch of programs being guided by the human mind.
If you can write a program that will mimic the human mind, it'll be
able to netrun, assuming the programming covers this area. Hell,
even a 'dumb' program could netrun, it just wouldn't be very good
at it.
>* What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
Who knows what an AI is thinking? It's an AI. The whole point to an
AI is that you have a program that will do this, this, and this for
you, and not do that, but otherwise is free to think/develop on their
own. Besides, it's not like the AI would have anything better to do
in its off hours.
>* Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would be
>in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
To some extent. I doubt they would know everything it's doing.
Remember, netrunners can tell a system 'You aren't receiving this
phone call. Now let me in.' An AI would be able to, too.'
>* Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
I dunno. Haven't read the books.
>My thoughts:
>
>I think the AI is 'in love' with Dodger, or at least curious about
>him. He was one of the first people the AI encountered in the Renraku
>system, and this is why the AI has taken a shine to Dodger.
That would do it.
>I also believe that if any company were to design a competant AI it
>would be Renraku as they could take advantage of the installed base
>of hardware and tweek the AI to take advanage of that hardware.
>(ie. Renraku-built backdoors, undocumented commands, etc.)
Actually, the Seattle Sourcebook mentions rumors that Renraku has done just
this. Fortunately, we shadowtypes don't have to go through the 'canon'
shit the Trekkies do :) so I can leave my players guessing.
>Scott Parish a.k.a. par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Fortunato
Purple Dragons! EVERYWHERE!!!
In article <> aw...@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew David Weiland) writes:
>>Questions:
>>* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix
>>running?
>
>sends out a sensory projection, like a decker, or is actually present in
>the matrix (the way IC is present).
My guess would be that the AI's decking session is a subprocess
which demands a sizable chunk of the AI's memory and whatnot to
control properly.
>If the first is true, the AI (Morgan Le Fay?) must have a hardware body
>somewhere; the only other option is that it's a self-replicating
>pattern. I don't think Renkaru would dare to create such a thing; it
>could and would make endless duplicates of itself. Of course if the AI
>can send out one sensory projection, it may be able to send out another.
> Each projection could be a separate individual (the fact that the
>projection called itself Morgan Le Fay does not mean the AI goes by that
>name) but each would be tied to the AI.
Of course the AI has a physical 'body' somewhere. It's housed in a computer
system. And yes, I think Renraku would create a self-replicating system
with appropriate limits set, if that's what was needed to do it right.
Another thing to remember is that according to the Seattle book, the AI
is a pet project of one or two high-placed Renraku officials, who may
have gotten overconfident in their programming.... Mwahahahahaha!
And I would suspect that whatever process it uses to run a decking
session, it can't control more than one or maybe two sessions at once.
(Especially consdidering how much they hamstring computers in SR).
>If the second is true, then Renkaru has no control over its creation.
>This is also untenable for the same reason; Renkaru wouldn't create it
>in the first place. Then again, the creation could be an accident. . .
The _creation_ probably isn't an accident; writing an AI would be
a mighty big oops!! I'd label the creation of such a system a
Design Flaw (and a big one at that...) And I'm _sure_ Renraku has
some kind of 'Kill It NOW' failsafe that the AI can't disable.
>Note that the "three stats necessary" might not necessarily be true in
>your gameworld. In Neuromancer, Wintermute possessed
>Intellegence/Intuition and Willpower but no Charisma. The Neuromancer
>seemed to possess Intellegence/Intuition and Charisma, but no Willpower.
> Also no other AI in that world possesses all three attributes, which
>are the threshold for true self awareness (and the Turing police
>intended to keep it that way).
Now _that_ I like!
>| Andrew D. M. U. Weiland | aw...@andrew.cmu.edu |
Fortunato
David A Versace
> par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Scott Parish) writes,
>
>>Questions:
>>* What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix
>>running?
>
>It seems the AI can run the matrix. The question is whether the AI
>sends out a sensory projection, like a decker, or is actually present in
>the matrix (the way IC is present).
>
>If the first is true, the AI (Morgan Le Fay?) must have a hardware body
>somewhere; the only other option is that it's a self-replicating
>pattern. I don't think Renkaru would dare to create such a thing; it
>could and would make endless duplicates of itself. Of course if the AI
>can send out one sensory projection, it may be able to send out another.
> Each projection could be a separate individual (the fact that the
>projection called itself Morgan Le Fay does not mean the AI goes by that
>name) but each would be tied to the AI.
>
is closest. A self-replicating AI would surely just "take over" the
Matrix, so that it could oversee everything that goes on (assuming, as
the books suggest, that its primary motivation at this stage is
somnething akin to curiosity). No way Renraku could be dumb enough to
make something like this - if the AI suddenly - or, hell, gradually -
developed a sense of right and wrong (a science fiction tradition,
yeah?) then no matter what moral perspective/stance it takes, *some* of
their Matrix projects will not meet with its "approval". And let's face
it, the AI's in a damn good position to interfer with anything it might
object to (as we can see from Dodger's reactions to it...heh).
>If the second is true, then Renkaru has no control over its creation.
>This is also untenable for the same reason; Renkaru wouldn't create it
>in the first place. Then again, the creation could be an accident. . .
I doubt it. Thousands and thousands of hours' programming just
happens to create a sentient, self-replicating Matrix being? Well,
maybe...this is >Shadowrun<...
>>* What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
>>* Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would
>>be in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
>>* Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
>>
>>My thoughts:
>>
>>I think the AI is 'in love' with Dodger, or at least curious about
>>him. He was one of the first people the AI encountered in the Renraku
>>system, and this is why the AI has taken a shine to Dodger.
>
>I'd say the AI is more curious than lovestruck; i might not say the same
>for Dodger. I wouldn't be surprised if the AI (or at least Morgan) has
>been following Dodger's actions previously, and only chose to reveal
>itself in Camelot Matrix.
Curious, definitely. Dodger's competence and possibly his
less-than-legitimate behaviour in thge Matrix probably attracted it to
him.
>An AI could have any number of mental skills, and physical skills if it
>has a body to use them in. It would possess memory to store these
>skills like skillsofts, and for other data and programs. I don't want
>to get into whether or not an AI has an essence, or even a magic rating.
> I'll leave that up to Jayhawk/Caroline to discover.
I think we can safely assume that there will be no connection
between Matrix-related parts of the game and magic. The creators seem to
be rather adamant about that.
Dave (no, the other one)
Nigel Stanger
> I just finished (I know--'bout time) the second book in the
> Secrets of Power series, and was wondering even more about the
> AI that Dodger encounters in the matrix.
>
> In the first book he encounters the AI in Renraku's computer
> system, this is fine. In the second book, Dodger finds, or
> rather, is found by the AI in the Hidden Circle's computer
> system.
Uh oh, now you've got me worried. My GM must have read at least
one of these books. Some time back we went on a run against
Renraku. We had to get inside one of their supply depots, break
into the inventory system and walk off with a large amount of
stuff, disguised as a legit shipment. I put the word out that I
wanted a high-level Sleaze program, and lo and behold, a level 10
(!) one arrived, signed only "Interfractor". It turned out to be
particularly effective against RenRaku IC (how useful! :-) We
figured it *had* to be written by an insider. I checked the code
for hidden traps, but couldn't find any.
We got in, broke into the computer fine using the sleaze. While I
was in there, I received a message to add two other items to the
list (a couple of obscure datastores) and set them up on a matrix
connection afterwards. We got the stuff and left. I set up the
datastores on the nifty mainframe which I had acquired ;-),
plugged it in and waited. I logged on later and found a message:
"Thanks." Later that week we heard a rumour that an AI developed
by RenRaku had "escaped". 2 + 2 = ?
Since then, I have only been contacted by Interfractor twice, and
still have no idea who (or what) he (or it) is. Maybe one day...
--
See ya
Nigel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Stanger, Internet: sta...@otago.ac.nz
c/o University of Otago,
P.O. Box 56, Phone: +64 3 479-8179
Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND. Fax: +64 3 479-8311
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"If I had a quote, I'd be wearing it." -- Bob Dylan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Borchardt
> * What's the chance that the AI is really capable of doing the matrix running?
If the matrix is it's environment, would it even realise it is running it?
It seemed to me to be more like it was a part of the matrix than in it.
I don't think that it's perceptions are limited just to the Renraku Arcology.
> * What 'motivation' does this AI have in tailing/seeking Dodger?
Curiosity. Remember it's probably newborn with a experiences limited to a
top security group of nodes. Does it in fact realise there is an outside
world until Dodger enters the system? And where did Dodger go when he
jacked out?
> * Does Renraku know what this AI is doing? (I think the answer would be
> in the first book...can't remember, anyone just re/read this one?)
It's been some time, but I believe that official Renraku knew nothing of
the AI. Although there had been rumours... And I think the project chief
suspects both it's existence and the fact that he cannot control it (can
you say "Frankenstein?")
> * Who thinks that the AI is 'in love' with Dodger?
No, just extremely curious. Does it even think Dodger is alive, or just
an interesting utility (and tries debugging it to see where it went...)
> Scott Parish a.k.a. par...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu ----------------------------------------------
--
Ian Borchardt And in the next world,
ibor...@physics.adelaide.edu.au I will kill the foe a thousand times,
Medical Physicist Laughing,
University of Adelaide/Royal Adelaide Hospital Undefeated.