Worst frp...
Maupts and Ninjas forever...
out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
-ninja
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Steerpike
>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
Assuming you are including science-fiction games in that category...
IMPORTANT NOTE FOR THE MENTALLY IMPAIRED:
All of this is, of course, just my opinion. If you happen to think
I picked the wrong games, please neglect to tell me about it. All of
these opinions are based on personal experience.
Worst system, overall:
Mechwarrior (or was it just the atrocious editing job?)
Dumbest concept:
TORG
Dumbest concept (runner up):
Shadowrun (although I like the game, and the system. I just leave
out the demi-humans and magic, and away I go).
Worst combat system:
That depends on what you want in a system. I think the Rolemaster
system is the worst (jeez... think they could add a few MORE
tables?).
Once again, these are only my opinions. Feel free to express yours
as well. :)
Dan (Steerpike)
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Doug Gibson
>In article <9ghc...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> ma...@warwick.ac.uk (Maupts and Ninjas forever...) writes:
>>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
>Assuming you are including science-fiction games in that category...
>IMPORTANT NOTE FOR THE MENTALLY IMPAIRED:
>All of this is, of course, just my opinion. If you happen to think
>I picked the wrong games, please neglect to tell me about it. All of
>these opinions are based on personal experience.
>Worst system, overall:
>Mechwarrior (or was it just the atrocious editing job?)
No comment on this one, as I haven't seen it.
>Dumbest concept:
> TORG
Personally, I thought it was an interesting concept. I wouldn't want to try
GMing it, but interesting nevertheless.
>
>Dumbest concept (runner up):
>Shadowrun (although I like the game, and the system. I just leave
> out the demi-humans and magic, and away I go).
I feel exactly the opposite... the demi-humans and magic are cool, but the
system sucks horribly. They need to tweak things so that there is a difference
between a 6 and 7 target number, for one thing. Lots of other annoying
"features."
>Worst combat system:
>That depends on what you want in a system. I think the Rolemaster
>system is the worst (jeez... think they could add a few MORE
>tables?).
Again, I always liked the RM combat system, except for the fact that missile
weapons were too powerful (IMHO). I think Palladium has the worst combat
system.... the one time I played RIFTS, I was *disgusted* to learn that there
were no range modifiers! Was this just a GM error, or is it true?
>Once again, these are only my opinions. Feel free to express yours
>as well. :)
Consider it done.
--
-Doug Gibson
send replies to: do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has any idea what I am doing;
they just pay me to do it.
David J Low
In <26...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> dbon...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Steerpike) writes:
>
>In article <9ghc...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> ma...@warwick.ac.uk (Maupts and Ninjas forever...) writes:
>>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
>Assuming you are including science-fiction games in that category...
>Mechwarrior (or was it just the atrocious editing job?)
The first edition of MechWarrior has been described as "the
role-playing game that a wargamer would design".
That description is not far wrong....... :-)
David.
--
___ ~~ | David J. Low, Atmospheric Group, Dept. Physics
/ /-----^-/~~~ | Adelaide University, South Australia
/ /-------/~ "I'll be back"|
<__/ ' --- Arnie | E-Mail : dl...@physics.adelaide.edu.au
Donald Trump
|>
|> out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?
Life
|> (and why?)
Stinks
David Gallo
>
> out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
IMO, the absolute WORST frp I have ever played is probably any FASA frp.
They have the absolutely worst stats and combat. In fact, pretty much
everything is bad. The only good thing about the game, I think, is their
expansive skill lists...( I am referring to Dr.Who and not Star Trek...I
haven't played that one yet.)
--
ecl...@netlink.cts.com (David Gallo)
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)
(These are all IMHO of course. Flames to /dev/null please.)
Mechwarrior was pretty bad; I haven't seen the 2nd edition but I doubt
if its gotten much better. FASA has a problem producing any really
playable system (IMHO of course) although they can come up with some
really good campaign settings. Shadowrun is a good example; I like
the setting, but the system is pretty hopeless.
GURPS is worthless in my book (a minority opinion though). Like FASA,
they can produce some wonderful sourcebooks and campaign settings but
the system itself just doesn't cut it. Basing all the non-physical
skills off of two stats just doesn't work; if your character is a
genius he's also (just from the default values) an accomplished
musician, charismatic, etc etc. NOT!
RIFTS (and Palladium in general) needs a lot of help. Anything that
allows practically indestructable dragons to be PCs alongside normal,
easily killable humans just isn't balanced properly. I also don't
care for the fact that it really isn't anything more than a very
expensive conversion system between Pallaidum's various games set in a
worthless post-apocalypse setting.
There are other bad RPGs out there, but these three are at the top of
my list.
--
| Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico) |
| jo...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu |
| "I'd be apathetic if I cared." |
Bryce Koike
Truthfully-speaking (from only my own heart), I still have
yet to find an RPG by FASA that was EVER playable.
Worst RPG (ironically with some of the best background):
The Doctor Who Role-Playing Game (...by FASA, no less. I
read through the game several times and I wouldn't touch it with a
ten-foot pole. I love the informatin in it, but the game system is
so awful that I'd rather die than play it.)
Game That Looked Cool But My Players Couldn't Cope
Ghostbusters by West End Games (uh, Paranoia too)
My player simply could NOT grasp the idea of semi-non
massive destruction game play. Their deductive skills were nil.
Augh! Thankfully I've found some gamers who are far more
intelligent. Still haven't played GB. (And it was such a FUN
game!)
Game That Leaves A Bad Taste In My Mouth
Shadowrun (yes, I know it's popular)
I'll never forgive FASA for popularizing some of the most
offensive slang I've ever heard. If I hear "chummer" or "chombatta"
again I think I'll puke.
Runner Up....GURPS Old West. (But that's just because I
hate the idea...heheheheh.)
I know I've stepped on toes and I fully expect to be flamed,
but that's life on the net....
...chummer.
Larry Smith
>The worst frp/rpg? There are so many to choose from!
What a bunch of pikers! Geez, the gaming market is loaded with good stuff,
you guys just weren't around at the dawn of history (10 years ago) when we
have great games like Adventures in Fantasy, Men and Magic, Time Portal and
many others that I'm so GLAD are out of print. There's some very stiff
competition for THIS prize!
Larry Smith
sm...@ctron.com
The usual disclaimer stuff...
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. -- Barry Goldwater
Ryk E Spoor
>In article <1992Jan9.1...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, jo...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:
>>The worst frp/rpg? There are so many to choose from!
>>Mechwarrior was pretty bad; I haven't seen the 2nd edition but I doubt
>>GURPS is worthless in my book (a minority opinion though). Like FASA,
>>RIFTS (and Palladium in general) needs a lot of help. Anything that
>What a bunch of pikers! Geez, the gaming market is loaded with good stuff,
>you guys just weren't around at the dawn of history (10 years ago) when we
>have great games like Adventures in Fantasy, Men and Magic, Time Portal and
Men and Magic? Did they make a GAME called that? Men and Magic was
the first booklet of the original D&D (Been in this stuff for 16 years
myself)
The Dr. Who RPG was not anywhere as bad as some are making out; I
liked some of the mechanics of the game, and the DW campaigns I've been in
worked pretty well.
In my own opinion, I'd give the booby prize to the tremendously
complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
game.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Maurice Beyke
>In article <29...@balrog.ctron.com> sm...@ctron.com writes:
>>In article <1992Jan9.1...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, jo...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:
>>>Mechwarrior was pretty bad; I haven't seen the 2nd edition but I doubt
>>>GURPS is worthless in my book (a minority opinion though). Like FASA,
>>>RIFTS (and Palladium in general) needs a lot of help. Anything that
>
>complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
>game.
>
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
If you want complex, C&S weren't nuttin! Powers & Perils takes the prize
as the most unplayable game. One group I was with slogged through it
anyway. They ended up destroying the planet with it's incredibly over
powered magic system. Compared to P&P, C&S is *easy*. (Not that I want
to play either one).
On the other end of the complexity spectrum (well, near it, anyway) is
Tunnels & Trolls. God, I hate that system. Quick as all hell, though, if
you can stand the completely brain dead mechanics.
_____________________________________________________________________________
| __ / aka Maurice Beyke \ Disclaimer: Any opinions |
| / _) __ * __ / m...@batman.b11.ingr.com \ expressed are totally |
| /-( / ) /--\ / ( / bey...@infonode.ingr.com \ ludicrous, & should |
|/___)(__/ / / __)/ Surrealistic Ontologist \ be simply ignored. |
|____________________/_______________________________\______________________|
Gym Z. Quirk
>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
Uh oh...someone got a can-opener and found that collection of worms...
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) tko...@triton.unm.edu
I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
what I have now...
Edward Allen;345 Mulford;x2-9025
I think the Men and Magic game referred to was actually "Man, Myth, and Magic"
Some other really bad games from the real dawn of time
(not 10 years ago, more like 18-15 years ago)
Original D&D - a great idea there, that spawned all the rest, but with lousy
system cohesion, garbled rules, and artwork that talented 7th graders could
surpass. Still, it has a certain panache, and with 5 to 10 pages of variant
rules, becomes p[layable and entertaining.
Empire of the Petal Throne, neat world, at least in terms of bizarreness and
complexity, nice maps, bad rehash of D&D for rules.
Metamorphosis Alpha - TSR's first try at SF. Heinlein's generation-ship-gone
-awry made goofy. Back in high school, we had endless dumb jokes while playing
this about mutants with the extra body parts or oversized body parts mutations
to the sexual organs. Extremely rape-able rules that were inherited by Gamma
World. My favorite was to have the radiation resistant mutant tie a chunk
of radioactive junk onto one end of a long rope (longer than the radius of
effect) and then have the flying mutant grab the other end and fly up with it
to dangle it in the neighborhood of the opposition, instantly killing those
that weren't rad-resistant.
TSR's short lived Barsoom game, pulled when the Burroughs people nailed them
for copyright infringement. Don't remember the title, maybe "Warriors of
Barsoom", a trite and superficial little set of RPG rules, in one booklet with
superficial miniatures wargame rule, and a mildly entertaining little airship
combat game, had an execrable line of miniatures by Heritage, I think, to go
with it. Still have a couple of those figs.
Honorable mention to Traveller, with it's awful and incomplete space combat
rules. When I called up GDW to ask for how the missiles were supposed to
shoot,
as they had left out things like missile acceleration and range, Marc Miller
says blithely "Make it up". Asshole. Gives half a combat system and then
tells you to make up the other half and considers it a finished product.
And then there's the ground combat system, with it's one dimensional no map
system. You just open range or close it with no other manuever possible.
Lotsa flavor there, hooboy.
GDW also produced En Garde, which had two parts that were completely divorced
from each other if you played the game as written. Either you made up
characters and fought duels as little combat exercises or you guided characters
through their schedules of what they are doing in town, practicing to get
better at fencing, gambling, cahsing mistresses, etc, all table driven, and
with no hooks built in to generate actual roleplaying encounters or duels.
Imagine the Traveller character generation system at a finer time scale as
the whole of the role playing action. No real provision for a game mastered
game, just a collective solitaire experience.
Ed Allen (al...@enzyme.berkeley.edu)
Ken Primer
Yeah let's take a trip back into the vaults o" time.
Atrocities produced by TSR
Gamma World,Marval Super Heros
An Atrocities produced by compaies that I can't remember.
Villians&Vigilantes,Chainmail&Chivalry(just how long canit take to make a
C&C character?)
--
Ken Primer
Email to: k...@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
Ken Primer
Fangshi
>An Atrocities produced by compaies that I can't remember.
> Villians&Vigilantes,Chainmail&Chivalry(just how long canit take to make a
>C&C character?)
Hey! I liked V&V, m'self. I'd agree with a previous poster about Gamma World -
amazingly rotten game. I did like the idea about the radioactive junk on a rope
very much, though. Thanks!
My vote for worst RPG would have to go to GURPS, but I suppose I'm going to get
heavily flamed for that one. I'm sorry, but I have hated every supplement I've
seen yet, and the basic rules suck too. The dying rules (only dying at -health
provided you're pretty tough) stink. If you disagree about supplements, let me
just say that I've recently read GURPS China, and it has got to be the worst one
yet! I'm a Chinese major, and I did a lot of research at one point on
roleplaying China. My specialty (academically) is Chinese magic, too. Let me
tell you - the supplement I knocked out for Ninja Hero in Tang Dynasty China
was MUCH better than GURPS China. Anyone read GURPS China out there?
If you haven't, DON'T!!!!
-Rain
--
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* My card: XV (Pick a card....) * ci...@midway.uchicago.edu *
* "We are ready to believe you" * *
ea...@elec.canterbury.ac.nz
I agree that C&S and P&P were pretty bad and complex.
But if you _really_ want complex? Try Swords' Path to Glory and their
suppliment for modern fire arms (can't remember the publishers).
In Swords Path the combat is done on a hex grid. The sequencing
of player actions uses a system similar to the terrible one in
Car Wars version 1 where everything is done in small bursts -
right down to the tenth of a second. Even acceleration is taken
into account!
This might be all very well and realistic - a guy in plate
mail taking longer to stop than someone who's not - but it is
totally unplayable. As you can imagine, combat takes hours. In
the example in the book, a small skirmish between two goodies and
three baddies takes five pages.
And the modern fire arms book...
The human body is divided into 53 hit locations! Each
location is thoroughly detailed with cross-sections showing where
bone and flesh is, and the points needed to penetrate. When a
bullet is fired, it is given a certain number of "penetration
points". These points drop off due to range and armour. The
remainder is impinged onto the crossection of the body - at the
relevant hit location - and you can work out whether the bullet
passed right through or got stuck in the bone. Then work out the
hydrostatic shock if the bullet was supersonic, etc, etc, etc.
As well as pages and pages of firearm tables detailing weapons
from mediaeval times to the future. Is it playable as an RPG? No way!
Andrew Earl (ea...@elec.canterbury.ac.nz)
-- Support your right to arm bears. --
John H Kim
>Dumbest concept:
> TORG
>
>Dumbest concept (runner up):
>Shadowrun (although I like the game, and the system. I just leave
> out the demi-humans and magic, and away I go).
That's odd - I think Shadowrun has among the most incomprehensible game
mechanics I've ever seen, very difficult to run without messing with the
system.
I'd put Element Masters and Lords of Creation down under dumbest concept
category.
As runner up, I'd put Chill, 1rst Ed (S.A.V.E. in particular) and (if it
can be included) the Prisoner world-book for GURPS (Who the hell would
want to play in that?)
>Worst combat system:
>That depends on what you want in a system. I think the Rolemaster
>system is the worst (jeez... think they could add a few MORE
>tables?).
I'd say Space Opera easily beats Rolemaster for slowness:
six rolls for combat: hit, hit location, penetration, damage level,
damage points, and instant kill chance; plus possible rolls to
resist stunning, etc.). Throw in Powers and Perils, too.
Systems that I can't judge because I can't understand what they're
talking about include Lands of Adventure and Universe.
As for which system succeeds best in changing combat into a meaningless
exchange of numbers, I'd probably say AD&D, although there are numerous
identical systems. I should probably include Traveller in this list, too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "If we imagine of them no worse than they
j...@cuphyd.phys.columbia.edu | of themselves, then they must pass for
Columbia University | excellent men." - Theseus
ri...@qucdnee.ee.queensu.ca
>
> In my own opinion, I'd give the booby prize to the tremendously
> complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
> game.
complex? sure. unplayable? not at all. i introduced whole stacks of
people to gaming with a slightly mutated c&s back in the early 80s. none
of them found it unplayable. in fact most, when later introduced to d&d,
found it "nearly unplayable."
rp
Ross M Stites
> On the other end of the complexity spectrum (well, near it, anyway) is
> Tunnels & Trolls. God, I hate that system. Quick as all hell, though, if
> you can stand the completely brain dead mechanics.
But you have to admit, the spell names are hilarious. I've never played
Tunnels & Trolls, but I have read the rules and I have played the computer
game.
Ross Stites
(sti...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu)
Lester Ward
>That's odd - I think Shadowrun has among the most incomprehensible game
>mechanics I've ever seen, very difficult to run without messing with the
>system.
Lots of people have said this about Shadowrun. As a devout SR player, I
really wish you'd take another look at it. The things that make SR worth
playing have nothing to do with the mechanics, and quite frankly, if the
mechanics are that much in the forefront, you're not really PLAYING Shadowrun.
>I'd put Element Masters and Lords of Creation down under dumbest concept
>category.
I liked Lords of Creation for three reasons. 1) ANY plot was realistic in
it, 2) The mechanics didn't get in the way, and 3) I just personally liked
the idea of Normal-Guys-Who-Suddenly-Get-Envolved-In-Dimensional-Time-Space-
Weirdness. I also like the lack of detail, as you were gaurenteed that
anything you did wouldn't be nullified by future products.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Star Frontiers yet. I actually liked
this game to (for its simplicity), but many thought is was the dumbest
thing in the world.
Wordman
Keith Ammann
In a previous article, bko...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) says:
> Shadowrun (yes, I know it's popular)
> I'll never forgive FASA for popularizing some of the most
>offensive slang I've ever heard. If I hear "chummer" or "chombatta"
>again I think I'll puke.
"Chombatta"? Did I miss something?
Oh, btw, my vote for worst FRP goes to Talislanta. What DOES the
world need with 132 character classes?
Yours ob'tly,
Specter
--
justify your existence - question authority - be excellent to each other
think for yourself - think for someone else - aa...@cleveland.freenet.edu
keith ammann - eat too much spaghetti and spin around as fast as you can
tell someone you love 'em - go easy - listen to the kinks - live with honor
cse...@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>
> out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
> -ninja
The WORST frp of ALL time (out of print now, but you can see copies of it
and the few modules published for it going for a quarter apiece at better
con auctions everywhere)
MAN, MYTH & MAGIC
If you recognize the name, you don't HAVE to ask why it's the worst
Typical situation
[Refer to book 2, section 16.33 --- Ummmmm, book 2 only goes up to
section 13]
Then again, it is possible, even with the wildly apocryphal rules to
play the game. At which point, the GM and the players shortly realize
that characters remain absurdly low powered for quite a while, and then
suddenly make the jump to god-being-master-of-the-known-universe.
This may be fine for D&D Immortals afficionados... but gives be a bad
taste in my mouth
Pick it up someday for a good laugh.
------------------------------------------------------------
Stupidest game currently in print:
[Puts on asbestos suit, ready for all those fans out there]
Shadowrun.
Cyperpunk and magic, oil and water, hippies and cops, nitroglycerine and
sudden violent motion... enough said.
-----------------------------------------------------------
--Obscurus
--enter of your own free will, but my mind is my own
Les Jenkins
wrote:
>Worst combat system:
>That depends on what you want in a system. I think the Rolemaster
>system is the worst (jeez... think they could add a few MORE
>tables?).
CG> Again, I always liked the RM combat system, except for the fact that
CG> missile
CG> weapons were too powerful (IMHO). I think Palladium has the worst
CG> combat
CG> system.... the one time I played RIFTS, I was *disgusted* to learn
CG> that there
CG> were no range modifiers! Was this just a GM error, or is it true?
RIFTS does have a type of range modifier although I don't see why NOT
having one is such a horrible thing. According to the recently released
RIFTS Conversion Book "In combat at a greater distance (61 feet and
farther), the combatants must roll an eight (8) or higher to strike."
No, this rule wasn't in the original RIFTS book, but has since been added
with the release of the Conversion Book. RIFTS, and the Palladium system in
general, doesn't bother with range modifiers in an attemp to keep combat as
quick and simple as possible. Instead, the dodge bonus plays a greater role
in the game. Compared to AD&D with it's range penalities and THAC0 and
Dodge, etc rules, combat in RIFTS is quite a bit quicker. RIFTS also takes
into account the higher tech level and better craftsmanship of weapons by
not bothering with range penalities. A roll of 5 (on d20) or higher hits in
hand to hand and ranged combat under 61 feet and a roll of 8 or higher hits
in ranged combat at 61 feet or over. Opponets may opt to parry (if
possible) or dodge or stand there and take the damage. Parrying does not
use an attack, but dodging does (unless your character has an automatic
dodge. Very rare.)
-- Via DLG Pro v0.985b
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Les Jenkins
wrote:
D> In article <9ghc...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> ma...@warwick.ac.uk (Maupts
D> and Ninjas forever...) writes:
>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
D> Assuming you are including science-fiction games in that category...
D> IMPORTANT NOTE FOR THE MENTALLY IMPAIRED:
D> All of this is, of course, just my opinion. If you happen to think
D> I picked the wrong games, please neglect to tell me about it. All of
D> these opinions are based on personal experience.
D> Worst system, overall:
D> Mechwarrior (or was it just the atrocious editing job?)
Agreed.
D> Dumbest concept:
D> TORG
Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
D> Dumbest concept (runner up):
D> Shadowrun (although I like the game, and the system. I just leave
D> out the demi-humans and magic, and away I go).
Shadowrun and I have a love/hate relationship. I love the cyberpunk genre
and Shadowrun does a good job at it, however, the addition of magic and
demi-humans was too much. Someone once described it to me as a cross
between Cyberpunk and AD&D. I don't WANT AD&D in my cyberpunk games.
Luckily Cyberpunk 2.0 made up for the really horrorible Net Running rules
of the 1st edition and solved this problem. Still, I like playing Shadowrun
even if the AD&D style elements make me cringe. :-)
D> Worst combat system:
D> That depends on what you want in a system. I think the Rolemaster
D> system is the worst (jeez... think they could add a few MORE
D> tables?).
Agreed again. God, Rolemaster is overkill.
D> Once again, these are only my opinions. Feel free to express yours
D> as well. :)
Okay.
Ronin Ironpig
>In article <1992Jan9.2...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> k...@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken Primer) writes:
>>An Atrocities produced by compaies that I can't remember.
>> Villians&Vigilantes,Chainmail&Chivalry(just how long canit take to make a
> -------------------
>>C&C character?)
>
>Hey! I liked V&V, m'self. I'd agree with a previous poster about Gamma World -
>amazingly rotten game. I did like the idea about the radioactive junk on a rope
>very much, though. Thanks!
>
>My vote for worst RPG would have to go to GURPS
Okay, Boys and Girls, my turn...
Yeah, GURPS is pretty bad. It's heart's in the right place, though, and that's
important... However, disagree with your comments on the supplements. Okay,
CHINA might be pretty bad, but if you're designing your own gaming world, things
like FANTASY, SPACE and CYBERPUNK prove excellent IMO.
Now, my vote in the worst combat system category goes to T2k 2nd Ed. Any game
where the average character can get hit in the chest with a 7.62mm round at
point-blank range and only suffer a slight wound is pretty ridiculous.
For worst character generation system, I'd like to offer Timelords -
the character you create is yourself. Strength is based on how many seconds
you can hold a liter bucket of water at arm's length, Intelligence is based
on your SAT score (which we in Britain don't have, making that rule useless).
It's just plain silly, where's the fun in being _you_? Come to think of it,
where's the fun in being _me_?
Worst game design - Rolemaster/ Space Master. In our entire guild of over
200 gamers nationwide, only one has the guts to run a SpaM game. How many
critical tables do you need?
Worst game concept goes to Call Of Chthulu. Hey guys, great mythos, but what was
that creature? Oh sh*t, there goes my SAN, time to roll up another investigator.
Or, "Oh no, I can't guess what's going to happen _this_ time! Maybe, we'll run
into something nasty, like we did _last_ time... and the time before that...
and the time before...", ad nauseum. I'm a great lover of horror, but when a
whole game is devoted to it, and players have the word Chthulu written at the
top of their character sheet, it takes the surpise away a bit. Dark Conspiracy
is pretty much the same: "How do you know there's a conpsiracy going on?",
"Says so on the top of my character sheet". Oh, I know this is supposed to be
role-playing and the character's don't know what's going on, but it's much more
fun IMO if the players don't know, either.
Finally, worst RPG: Space Opera. Character Generation, Skills, unexplained
background and races, Combat and Space Combat are all so full of holes you
project a torch through them and turn your room into a planetarium. Absolutely
ridiculous. I ran my very first sci-fi game using those rules, and because it
was so complicated, I had to give out pre-gen PC's for the adventure which I
abhor, just so I could get the game started in the time I had. In the end, I
just botched up the combat so that what I wanted to happen, happened. About
two years later I ran exactly the same adventure using my own fledgling Arcadia
rules, with some of the same players, and they didn't even realise it was the
same one. Goes to show... If I can write a better system than FGU, then either
I'm in the wrong business, or FGU are.
Ohhhh, I can feel it getting hotter here, already...
NRM, who hasn't found a game he's really liked in 11 years of gaming, so he's
writing his own...x
--
N Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig - gdg...@cck.cov.ac.uk - The one and only
"It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine" - |)
- REM - |\ <> |\| | |\|
Opinions for sale... Only 2 cents each! - IRONPIG
Scott Mash
The worst frp, hands down is Battle Star Galactica. Enough said!!!
Scott
--
| Scott (Smasher) Mash | Smasher Land BBS
| sm...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu | (614)593-8359
| sm...@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu | RPG Textfiles and Utilities
| cs...@ouaccvmb.bitnet | 24 Hours A Day
Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)
>In a message dated Thu 9 Jan 92 04:22, Dbon...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (steerpike
>wrote:
>
> D> Dumbest concept:
> D> TORG
>
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
Gee, the way I remember things Torg came out before Rifts....
Bryan J. Maloney
In a previous article, ci...@quads.uchicago.edu (Fangshi) says:
>provided you're pretty tough) stink. If you disagree about supplements, let me
>just say that I've recently read GURPS China, and it has got to be the worst one
>yet! I'm a Chinese major, and I did a lot of research at one point on
>roleplaying China. My specialty (academically) is Chinese magic, too. Let me
>tell you - the supplement I knocked out for Ninja Hero in Tang Dynasty China
>was MUCH better than GURPS China. Anyone read GURPS China out there?
>
That's nice. I'm a molecular biologist/virologist with training in
ecology and zoology, and I would have to say that EVERY GAME ON EARTH
has the WORST rules for disease, animal/monster distribution, use of
scientific skills (although MegaTraveller's is the least laughable by
one ten-millionth of a chuckle).
Let me tell you, the informal talking I do about the research process
and the progress of viral diseases is MUCH better than any drivel you
would ever read or like. Anyone read ANY game in existence out there?
Take my advice, DON'T!
Anyone in the audience get my point?
Bryan J. Maloney
In a previous article, Les_J...@lppl.UUCP (Les Jenkins) says:
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
>
Sorry, RIFTS is a rip-off from TORG, if you go by release dates. RIFTS
also looks like it went through a lot less development time than did
TORG.
Bill Seurer
RPGs: inconsistant mechanics. D&D, AD&D, etc., all do this to to various
extents. This is probably because the game system grew as various people tacked
on different pieces of them: A combat system here, a magic system there, a skill
system over there, ...
The mechanics are inconsistant because to do task A, you roll this sort of die
and try to get over this funny number. To do task B you roll these two dice
trying to get under 5 times this other funny number. To do task C you don't do
anything but the other guy has to roll a third sort of die and try to get under
yet another funny number. And so on ad nauseum.
For example, in an AD&D combat I try to hit Mr. EvilMage with my sword. I have
to roll d20 equal to or greater than my THAC0 number (with modifications) which
is based on my level and maybe my ST. Meanwhile my buddy Mr. GoodMage tries to
cast a spell on Mr. EvilMage and instead of my buddy doing anything Mr. EvilMage
has to roll d20 against his saving throw number which is solely determined by his
level. Meanwhile QuickFingers, our thieving buddy, is trying to get the door
unlocked so we can all escape. First he tries to figure out something about the
lock by rolling under his locksmith skill which is based on his IQ. Failing
that, he tries to detect any traps on the door by rolling percentage dice under
his Detect Traps skill which is based on his level and race. And then there's our
cleric who heals me and only rolls an eight sided die to see how good he does.
All the mechanics are different for no apparent good reason.
--
- Bill Seurer Language Strategy and Support IBM Rochester, MN
seu...@vnet.ibm.com Prodigy: CNSX71A America On-Line: BillSeurer
Richard Bark
>
> In my own opinion, I'd give the booby prize to the tremendously
> complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
> game.
>
Chalk Chivalry & Sorcery's unplayability up to the fact that it is POORLY
edited. The game itself is good (magic is one of the BEST around), but you
have to wade through all the sloppy editing, looking for various chartsetc.
Another problem that C&S has/had? is that it has no unarmed combat system.
Which was found out the hard way, wheone oour party members tried to fight
somebody with bare hands.The magic rules, as I said, are VERY good, just
intricate and made difficult by the fact that the editing was so bad.
Although I don't have the original version of the game, I am told that it
was put together much better (read: actually playable), but the oblem with
it was that the type-set was so condensed that it was hard to .
>
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
--
rogu...@netlink.cts.com (Richard Bark)
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Viktor Haag
>
> In my own opinion, I'd give the booby prize to the tremendously
>complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
>game.
WHAT!!???
You young pup! While your brain was being dulled by that BASIC language of
the rpg world - (A)D&D, the rest of us were playing circles around your
dungeon crawling ilk using that noble high-level structured game, C&S (awesome
sighs of appreciation attend the mere mention of the game, may its name
be blessed and holy for ever). I remain convinced that those who weaned
themselves on D&D remain irrevocably damaged, while those of us who learned
on more noble games (C&S, Space Opera, Traveller) represent a clearly
superior grade of gaming experience.*
-------
*it should be noted here that the above two paragraphs are meant in jest.
a warning for the humour impaired. ed.
Seriously, C&S was, in my opinion, a much finer game than D&D ever aspired to
be, and whose only failing was that its excellence was couched in baroque
mechanics. Its worthy successors today have retained the flavour of that
splendid game, while providing more elegant mechanics -- I am of course
speaking of those three wonderful feudal-age systems, Pendragon, Ars Magica,
and HarnMaster.
I think that everyone is passing over the truly wretched to slam on those
games with which they have had horrible experiences. Who can forget the
awfulness of KABAL for example, or those TSR twins, Conan and Indian Jones,
the Roleplaying Disasters? There is where true terror lies.
--
Viktor Haag |
| "We are not thugs. We are not fanatics.
veh...@crocus.uwaterloo.ca | We are vitamin supplements to justice."
vik...@watdcs.uwaterloo.ca | : a Selector
Richard Bark
> I'd put Element Masters and Lords of Creation down under dumbest concept
> category.
> As runner up, I'd put Chill, 1rst Ed (S.A.V.E. in particular) and (if it
> can be included) the Prisoner world-book for GURPS (Who the hell would
> want to play in that?)
I would! The Prisoner is Co, and the world book is well done. Have you
even watched the show? If not, you should, it's very interesting.
/e
Oh, crap!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Kim | "If we imagine of them no worse than they
> j...@cuphyd.phys.columbia.edu | of themselves, then they must pass for
> Columbia University | excellent men." - Theseus
Viktor Haag
>
> D> Dumbest concept:
> D> TORG
>
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
This is a very interesting observation. Especially since, it was my
understanding, TORG was written before RIFTS, and *both of them are
post ShadowRun. Anyone out there have sure dates for these babies?
TORG's mechanics are quite cool, even if their background is rather
wonky.
Viktor Haag
>
>For worst character generation system, I'd like to offer Timelords -
>the character you create is yourself. Strength is based on how many seconds
>you can hold a liter bucket of water at arm's length, Intelligence is based
>on your SAT score (which we in Britain don't have, making that rule useless).
>It's just plain silly, where's the fun in being _you_? Come to think of it,
>where's the fun in being _me_?
In the current edition, this is only the first method of generation outlined.
There is also a set of rules to design characters from scratch using a point
system.
As to the overall philosophy of "playing yourself", I should have to say
firmly that this is a matter of opinion. One of the most enjoyed campaigns
I have ever been in (and enjoyed by others, not merely me) was a slightly
alternate universe Champions campaign where nearly everyone in the group
played a "changed" version of themselves. The first thing we did as a group
was to try and visit the GM .... infinite regressions abound. After awhile
we all felt like figures in an Escher lithograph. (Hi John).
>Worst game concept goes to Call Of Chthulu. Hey guys, great mythos, but what was
>that creature? Oh sh*t, there goes my SAN, time to roll up another investigator.
>Or, "Oh no, I can't guess what's going to happen _this_ time! Maybe, we'll run
>into something nasty, like we did _last_ time... and the time before that...
>and the time before...", ad nauseum. I'm a great lover of horror, but when a
>whole game is devoted to it, and players have the word Chthulu written at the
>top of their character sheet, it takes the surpise away a bit. Dark Conspiracy
>is pretty much the same: "How do you know there's a conpsiracy going on?",
>"Says so on the top of my character sheet". Oh, I know this is supposed to be
>role-playing and the character's don't know what's going on, but it's much more
>fun IMO if the players don't know, either.
Yeesh -- you sure have different tastes than most people around here. The whole
point behind CoC is the atmosphere of dread created by the players *knowing
that they are going to bite the biscuit, but knowing when or who, or what
unmentionably slimy thing will be doing it to them. CoC works much better if
players have only slight acquaintance with the background in the rules.
A perfect party of players is a group of five where only one knows anything
about Lovecraft, or the game's background material. That way when things
start pointing towards R'Lyeh, four players can look around confused as
one starts making "acckkppphh" noises .... wonderful to watch as a GM.
I will never forget the horrified looks on my player's faces as I told them
(in a Champions adventure set in the world mentioned above) that the news
held reports of a newly created country in the South Pacific. They new
that it had been created by a slightly dotty AI who had an efficient electronic
finger poised over the world's economy and had used this power to blackmail
the UN into allowing it to join. And then they found out that the "leader"
of the world (through the news) had declared the country's name to be
R'Lyeh. The tv reporter was grinning slightly as he patiently explained
to his viewing public that it was a quaint reference to a little known
American writer of fantastic tales. My players were screaming and
running for the door....
Fangshi
>
>In a previous article, ci...@quads.uchicago.edu (Fangshi) says:
>
>>just say that I've recently read GURPS China, and it has got to be the worst one
>ecology and zoology, and I would have to say that EVERY GAME ON EARTH
>has the WORST rules for disease, animal/monster distribution, use of
>scientific skills (although MegaTraveller's is the least laughable by
>one ten-millionth of a chuckle).
>Let me tell you, the informal talking I do about the research process
>and the progress of viral diseases is MUCH better than any drivel you
>would ever read or like. Anyone read ANY game in existence out there?
>Take my advice, DON'T!
>Anyone in the audience get my point?
Yes, I get your point, but perhaps you didn't get mine. Obviously no supplement
or game will ever be terribly accurate about much of anything. Things have to
be boiled down a lot before they're playable and palatable to the general
audience. I agree completely. However, there's a difference between what we
might call "game-writer's license" and dishonesty. Let's take a biology
example, okay? Let's suppose that we are putting out a supplement on genetics
and disease for a cyberpunk-type game, in which genetic engineering and applied
virology are powerful tools for altering people's physiognomy (not too
unreasonable, I hope!). Okay, now if the writer decides not to go into great
detail about DNA transcription and translation, that's fine. After all, it's
not that important to the game world, and besides it can be difficult material.
However, if the writer says that all viruses are contagious when characters
kiss, and you have to make some kind of roll not to catch it if you kiss a
virus-altered character, this would be over the limit of acceptable
simplification.
The GURPS China supplement is a delightful introduction to some vaguely
"oriental" country, but unfortunately it's not China. The bAjic facts about
China tend to be inaccurate to the point of deception. _}i}i}i~r}i{_}i{_~r}i~rOZxD}i}i~r{Zi}i}i{'{{ (Sorry - something wrong with the server here...)
The magic system is a far worse approximation of the Chinese mystical and
magical systems than D&D was of medieval magic.
One other point: You commented on my writing about Tang China by saying that
the work you present about virology would hardly be something I would want to
read. Probably true, but then the work I was talking about was written for
gamers, not for the academic community specializing in Chinese religion. I
will grant that my thesis in progress on Chinese alchemy is unlikely to be a
lot of fun for gamer friends to read, but that's not my audience. Perhaps a
better comparison would be with a disease gaming system which you've written.
If gamers would find it boring and worthless, then I hate to break it to you
but it is boring and worthless. You
have to write to an audience. GURPS China is written towards the gaming
audience, but the research which went into it is generally faulty in the
extreme.
Please, read letters before you flame them, okay? :>
Gym Z. Quirk
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
That's funny, TORG was published about two monthes before RIFTS was...
>*** * * *** |les%lppl...@vela.acs.oakland.edu or ..vela!lppl!les|
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) tko...@triton.unm.edu
I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
what I have now...
Gym Z. Quirk
in article <1992Jan10....@watdragon.waterloo.edu> veh...@crocus.waterloo.edu (Viktor Haag) writes:
>TORG's mechanics are quite cool, even if their background is rather
>wonky.
That's really funny. I think that the background's pretty
interesting, but the mechanics are almost unplayable. ;-)
>Viktor Haag |
>veh...@crocus.uwaterloo.ca | We are vitamin supplements to justice."
>vik...@watdcs.uwaterloo.ca | : a Selector
Doug Easterly
Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the WORST game I
ever owned (still have it in storage at my mother's house)
back in the old days when everyone was publishing a stinky
rpg, but one of the top ones was a British hardcover import
called simply _Fantasy Wargaming_. The book included long
treatises on why one had to make a wonderful realistic setting,
why D&D and D&D playing was so bad, and then followed with
a poorly written set of combined rpg and wargame rules. The
magic system and combat system were neither simple nor interesting,
skills were undefined, and the "piety" system required minute by
minute monitoring as you either sinned or were noble. And it
was never clear WHY you should bother.
Another hidden stinker was a paperback called _Darksword Adventures_
which was published to look like another book in the _Darksword_
series by Hickman and Weis. The book is a poorly-edited, poorly-
presented rpg with mediocre mechanics at best. On the plus side
it's only about six bucks.
Finally, I nominate the entire line of games by the now defunct
TriTac Inc. Though I have met many fans of the game, I just can't
really live with a "realistic" combat system that is so detailed
in the placement of hit locations that eyeglasses are given an
armor rating. Combine that with the presentation of one of their
games "Stalking the Night Fantastic" in a tongue in cheek setting,
and you end up with a muddled, silly, gory game that fails on
nearly every level.
Jus' my $.02 worth...
(as if anyone cares)
John H Kim
>> I'd put Element Masters and Lords of Creation down under the dumbest concept
>> category.
>> As runner up, I'd put Chill, 1rst Ed (S.A.V.E. in particular) and (if it
>> can be included) the Prisoner world-book for GURPS (Who the hell would
>> want to play in that?)
>
>I would! The Prisoner is Co, and the world book is well done. Have you
>even watched the show? If not, you should, it's very interesting.
OK - run this by your players (This to whoever it was who thought
that Call of Cthulhu was a bad idea.) 'I want you to play in a setting
where you are a prisoner of a power you don't even know. There will be
plenty of adventures where you try to escape, but you'll never succeed.'
I am also a fan of the series (although I've only seen about twelve
of the episodes), but I do *not* think it is a good idea for a role-playing
game. 'Look, Bob, I know your character got screwed again, and has gained
nothing for his troubles, but at least he made a social statement.'
I'd also like to take this time to defend FGU from someone who
was blasting it on the basis of Space Opera. FGU games are generally
complicated and often poorly edited, but there is still alot in them
of value. I like alot of their mechanics - check out Aftermath and
Daredevils and Bushido (this whoever implied that all frp's are as badly
researched as GURPS China).
I was the first to put down Space Opera for the worst combat
system, but FGU has some fine stuff to its credit.
To whoever mentioned the Conan frp and Indiana Jones, thank
for the reminder. Now what do you think of TSR?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "Lord, what fools these mortals be."
j...@cuphyd.phys.columbia.edu | - Puck
Columbia University |
John H Kim
>>That's odd - I think Shadowrun has among the most incomprehensible game
>>mechanics I've ever seen, very difficult to run without messing with the
>>system.
>
>Lots of people have said this about Shadowrun. As a devout SR player, I
>really wish you'd take another look at it. The things that make SR worth
>playing have nothing to do with the mechanics, and quite frankly, if the
>mechanics are that much in the forefront, you're not really PLAYING Shadowrun.
>
Shadowrun, and know many people who play it alot - and all of them have
made changes to the system. The mechanics are *not* in the forefront, but
they still cause problems.
I like the concept and the world alot - this to those of you who
seem to think that magic belongs nowhere else than in stereotypic settings,
and anything that breaks away from genre conventions is bad. But the
mechanics are still screwed up.
>>I'd put Element Masters and Lords of Creation down under dumbest concept
>>category.
>
>I liked Lords of Creation for three reasons. 1) ANY plot was realistic in
>it, 2) The mechanics didn't get in the way, and 3) I just personally liked
>the idea of Normal-Guys-Who-Suddenly-Get-Envolved-In-Dimensional-Time-Space-
>Weirdness. I also like the lack of detail, as you were gaurenteed that
>anything you did wouldn't be nullified by future products.
Umm, I'd put #1 down under reasons that it was dumb. I'd like to
point out the level progression system, where players slowly work them-
selves up to being GM's (oh, excuse me, Lords of Creation), and also the
arbitrary sets of powers. I made no complaint about the mechanics (although
I can't say I liked them), just that the concept was dumb.
I'd also like to take a moment to defend Torg - whose concept
predates Rifts (or at least its release). I would like to point out the
similarity of its premises to that of Amber - an infinite of universes,
with different physical laws (axioms in Torg). In Amber, the only interaction
between them possible is through the princes of Amber - in Torg, the
only interaction possible is through the Dark Lords (or whatever the
general term is, I forget).
Also like to mention that Chivalry and Sorcery had plenty of fine
ideas in it (I like the magic alot), and there are plenty of games out
there which are more complicated. It had some editing problems and some
basic mechanics inconsistancies, but it was nowhere close to the worst
frp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "Lord what fools these mortals be."
andrew.c.durston
> Worst game design - Rolemaster/ Space Master. In our entire guild of over
> 200 gamers nationwide, only one has the guts to run a SpaM game. How many
> critical tables do you need?
are in my gaming club in one county ( Monmouth ). I can think of
about 40+ people who have played at one time or another.
Funny how tastes differ...
Now for my IMHO on worst FRPs...
Worst FRP -
1st Ed AD&D
Worst, but has its heart in the right place, Superhero RPG -
Marvel Superheros ( love them movement rules... )
Worst SFRPG -
Traveller 2300, 1 part TW*2000 plus 1 part Traveller and
discard the rest...
ACDurston
..!att!hotld!acd
x90sa...@gw.wmich.edu
>
> out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
That's simple...any game put out using the Palladium system, is subject to this
"award;" it's hard to say why however, all I know is that I CAN't stand the
system...it makes me sick, I puke on it...NO PUEDO SOPORTARLO....
Sorry for the editorial...
All of yours' in Perdition, Nyaralathotep.
Andrew Akins
> Worst SFRPG -
> Traveller 2300, 1 part TW*2000 plus 1 part Traveller and
> discard the rest...
>
> ACDurston
> ..!att!hotld!acd
Yes....funny how people's tastes differ.
Traveller 2300 (or 2300AD, as it was called in later editions) is my
favorite SFRPG because of the wealth of detail placed into the universe
and the "realism" of the game (as much realism as a SFRPG can have, IMHO).
Now, ofr my $.02 about the worst RPGs (donning flameproof garments)
Any Paladium or Fasa game. Now in defense of Paladium, the only games
I have seen are Robotech and Heroes Unlimited. But I was not impressed.
And FASAs systems just seem too screwed up. I like Shadowrun's concept
and world, but not the system.
Honorable mention, in my book, does go to Rolemaster/Spacemaster/MERP
because of the critical tables. In my style of gaming, its just too
much. But I imagine there are people out there who enjoy that kind of
detail. More power to them. Me, I like the systems simpler than that.
'nuff said.
Andrew Akins
aka Brother Andrek
----------------------------------------------------------------
"I really don't understand why we have to fight this guy.
Just drop a melta-bomb on his head and get it over with."
-- Brother Canteel, at the Battle of Grimashk
Steve Owen
Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
now it's time to turn it around:
WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'd just be interested in
checking out any games I'm not familiar with that lots of people think
is really good. So what are your recommendations?
Steve
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Steve Owen
ARPA: s...@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science
CSNET: so@duke Duke University
UUCP: {mcnc,decvax}!duke!so Durham, NC 27706 USA
"In a society where everyone thinks alike, very little thinking is done."
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
r...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
No background, ludicrous gun combat rules (every weapon had a combat value
that determined its stats), the most convoluted unarmed combat rules ever
published, a skill list from some college catalog (what's your skill in
Art History? Political Science? Physical Fitness?). And to top it all off,
it came with an introductory module that was a location with no plot.
A truly priceless dud of a game.
--Joel Pratt
Cornell University
Steffan O'Sullivan
systems mentioned in this flame war, but actually most of the really bad
games haven't been talked about. Folks are just taking advantage of the
opportunity to take cheap shots at systems they have a pet peeve against.
Come on, folks, let's get to the really bad games. We all know some of
you hate GURPS, Shadowrun, RIFTS, Torg, AD&D, whatever, but any truly
honest examination of any of those games would reveal they are largely
good games, each with its own set of flaws. A small set of flaws does
not qualify a game to be the worst rpg ever made.
Have you ever read the rules to KABAL? You have to take the square root
of various nasty numbers just to find your ST!
--
- Steffan O'Sullivan s...@oz.plymouth.edu
Doug Gibson
>In a previous article, bko...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) says:
>> Shadowrun (yes, I know it's popular)
>> I'll never forgive FASA for popularizing some of the most
>>offensive slang I've ever heard. If I hear "chummer" or "chombatta"
>>again I think I'll puke.
>"Chombatta"? Did I miss something?
>Oh, btw, my vote for worst FRP goes to Talislanta. What DOES the
>world need with 132 character classes?
It depends. A huge number of careers works well in Warhammer.
--
-Doug Gibson
send replies to: do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has any idea what I am doing;
they just pay me to do it.
Doug Gibson
Yup. Let's face it; nobody except an expert is going to do a subject justice.
If your GM for a game set in China isn't an expert on Chinese culture, etc.,
what are you to do? Simply REFUSE TO PLAY because it won't be accurate? I
think not. The most important thing about a worldbook is that the environment
FEELS right, not that it is right.
jeff wilder
|Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
|heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
|now it's time to turn it around:
|WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
Cyberpunk 2020. Sure, there are a few glitches in the rules ("HOW many SP's?!"),
but the atmosphere is there. I also like the concept behind ShadowRun, but the
system is so screwed, I never could seriously get into it.
GURPS is excellent, too. Realistic, and still playable.
And, honorable mention, AD&D 2nd ed. I know I'm gonna get flamed for this (put
it back in yer pants, okay pal?), but AD&D is the game I grew up on, and AD&D2
is a *tremendous* improvement.
--
================================================================================
| Jeff W uk0...@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they |
| Wilder & wil...@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck. |
================================================================================
Len Borowski
master level. I once had a human (from planet Earth) character with
it. I know, I know. . .the GM is suppossed to make sure that that
kind of thing doesn't happen, but hey, I was young. . .
Anyway, my vote for worst RPG of all time is Universe (one of those
games that is mercifully out of print). I never actually got past the
character generation system, which required you to generate a home
planet first. And then to determine what terrain on that planet
he/she comes from.
Runner up: The Adventures of Indiana Jones. Every time that you made
a roll you had to determine what the one fourth mark, one half mark,
etc. were for the roll in order to determine how successful you were.
In addition, there was this rule about hero points or some such
nonsense which the GM got for the NPCs for acheiving goals set forth
at the beginning of the encounters. This led to a rather amusing
situation in the first chapter of "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"
One of the characters, Wu Han is the waiter in this scene. The GM's
goal for the encounter: kill Wu Han. Every spare bullet in the room
is aimed at this idiot. The module said for two to four players, but
one of them was going to be rather unsatisfied. One more gripe about
this game: there was no PC generation system. Just eight provided
characters (including Indiana Jones). What an awful system. Praise
God that is gone. By the way, TSR was the maker.
AATLEMIDRM (send replies to Ba0...@bingvaxa.cc.binghamton.edu, as
this is my friend's account)
--
*************************************************************************
*Leonard Borowski |"And the Littlest Giant's heart was *
* Comp Sci/Physics Major | filled with blood" -Ren And Stimpy *
* "Physics is such a Love/Hate |---------------------------------------*
Animal
>
> [stuff deleted]
>
> Finally, I nominate the entire line of games by the now defunct
> TriTac Inc.
First things first, Tri Tac is no longer, and has never been defunct.
It is doing quite well, and for being the purveyor of the worst line
of games ever produced, Stalking The Night Fantastic won the 1991
RPGA Best Fantasy Game award. So there, nyah :-p!
> Though I have met many fans of the game, I just can't
> really live with a "realistic" combat system that is so detailed
> in the placement of hit locations that eyeglasses are given an
> armor rating.
Like most games, Tri Tac's games can be played at different levels of
reality from simple to complex. I've run several games and I vary the
level of reality to suit the moment. Besides, unless they're made out
of polycarbonate, eyeglasses provide only a point of protection. And
your reaction to a "realistic" combat system, seems to me that you're
an ADnD maven and aficionado or a fan of less realistic systems such
as Space:1889, which wins one of my votes for great concept, lousy
execution.
> Combine that with the presentation of one of their
> games "Stalking the Night Fantastic" in a tongue in cheek setting,
> and you end up with a muddled, silly, gory game that fails on
> nearly every level.
Oh, so the people who voted it the best fantasy game of 1991 did so
out of pity? No, they decided it was the best because it is the best.
Yes it has a tongue in cheek setting, that can turn deadly serious at
the drop of a hat. Sounds like you looked at friend's copy and never
ever played the game. I don't blast games based on hearsay, I check
them out first, then I voice my opinion.
So here's my vote for the worst RPG: Starships and Spacemen. Almost
was the first SFRPG ever, but Traveler beat it out. It was a blatant
ripoff of Star Trek, with substitutions for all the alien races.
Simplistic movement, combat, and character generation where it's
hallmarks, and almost no other redeeming qualities.
--
John H. Reiher Jr.
Internet: JHRE...@uccs.edu
Bitnet: JHRE...@COLOSPGS.BITNET
America Online: Dr Destiny, Kedamono
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Standard disclaimer, mainly to keep the University of | Meow! Meow! |
| Colorado's regents from having kittens over my remarks. | Purrrrrrrr! |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Free at last, free at last! Thank God almighty that I'm free at last! |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryk E Spoor
> Yeah let's take a trip back into the vaults o" time.
>Atrocities produced by TSR
> Gamma World,Marval Super Heros
Marvel SH was hardly as bad as, say, DC Heroes, and nowhere near as
silly as GURPS Supers -- "Realistic Superheroes"????? Excuse me, what were YOU
smoking? Yes, close the door on your way out.
MSH has the huge advantage of putting almost every power at your
fingertips and allowing most things to be done simply on one chart. It also
allows you to simulate a lot of comicbook action fairly well, though not
everything. It's a fair to good Superhero game.
>An Atrocities produced by compaies that I can't remember.
> Villians&Vigilantes,Chainmail&Chivalry(just how long canit take to make a
>C&C character?)
V&V was from FGU, Fantasy Games Unlimited, and hardly an atrocity. Like
all games, particularly the early ones, it had its flaws, but it was a VERY
good first try, and I STILL prefer it to all other superhero games (Rules rapes
can be avoided by only three notable changes and a little common sense).
You want a REAL Superhero Dog award? Try SUPERHERO 2044.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Ryk E Spoor
>Shadowrun.
>Cyperpunk and magic, oil and water, hippies and cops, nitroglycerine and
>sudden violent motion... enough said.
Seen a lot of your type, chummer. No guts, no imagination, no
glory.
Personally, I LOVED the SR concept. The addition of Magic, of the
Change happening JUST as everything ELSE was happening, was damn close
to a stroke of Genius.
But then, you're probably the type who couldn't stomach a Techno
class in D&D either... whereas, if you think about it, an alien with a
blaster rifle would be a lot more noticable here in pittsburgh or over
where you are than he would on a street featuring three elves, a mage
with a wand of fireballs, a dragon, and a couple dwarves.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Ryk E Spoor
...untrue. (blatant prejudice about to show)
It's a point based system. Its heart is in Hell and shall burn there
where it belongs.
>For worst character generation system, I'd like to offer Timelords -
>the character you create is yourself. Strength is based on how many seconds
>you can hold a liter bucket of water at arm's length, Intelligence is based
>on your SAT score (which we in Britain don't have, making that rule useless).
>It's just plain silly, where's the fun in being _you_? Come to think of it,
>where's the fun in being _me_?
I agree about the methodology, but SOME of us like playing characters
based on ourselves. It's generally assumed that being put into that heroic
track will end up changing you, of course. Maybe not now, but later. For
me the basic attraction of these games, and of reading, is the vicarious thrill
of putting myself in the Hero position. Much easier, then, to get "into" that
mood if it really IS "me" in that position! One of the best games I was ever
in was an AD&D Middle Earth game where I was assumed to have just stepped
through from here to there...
>Worst game design - Rolemaster/ Space Master. In our entire guild of over
>200 gamers nationwide, only one has the guts to run a SpaM game. How many
>critical tables do you need?
I agree about some things. RM I like (the Crit tables are PART of the
reason why, I LOVE 'em!), but Space Master... er, problems. Particularly the
so-called PSIONIC system that was identical to the magic system (and some
places they even oopsed and called "psions" "spells"); if you are going
to have psionics, guys, make sure they are DISTINGUISHABLE from magic?!
>Worst game concept goes to Call Of Chthulu. Hey guys, great mythos, but what was
A 96 SAN helps to keep it, dude. Some small mods and it can work. Not
my cuppa, though...
>Finally, worst RPG: Space Opera. Character Generation, Skills, unexplained
>background and races, Combat and Space Combat are all so full of holes you
>project a torch through them and turn your room into a planetarium. Absolutely
>ridiculous. I ran my very first sci-fi game using those rules, and because it
>was so complicated, I had to give out pre-gen PC's for the adventure which I
>abhor, just so I could get the game started in the time I had. In the end, I
>just botched up the combat so that what I wanted to happen, happened. About
Funny. I ran a SO campaign when it first came out. I liked it, so did
the players. I tried other space games (Traveller [ick], Star Frontiers [ick],
Other Suns [ick], Space Master [double ick]...), tried SO again. I liked
it, so did the players. Tried a few other games (Star Trek [ick], Doctor Who
[cute, but... ick], GURPS [ick], etc...)
I'm STILL running SO; it works with a few minor rules changes and has
some of the best basic ideas around, not to mention the fact that its star
atlases are better written (misspellings and all!) than most modern supplements
are, and are SURE a heckuvalot better reading!
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Chadd VanZanten
Now this sounds a little more creative than just slamming games. Every game
has weaknesses, and if you happen to get a crappy GM running an especially
weak game, the experience can be really sour. I particularly object to
slamming older games. First and second generation games are just full of
stupid rules and inconsistancy, but they had to be because their authors
were breaking new ground. They were still in the process of striking the
balance between enjoyable game elements (realism, playability, interesting
concept, etc). Admittedly, lots of games failed miserably, but chances are
your favorite game in part owes its existance (at least indirectly) to the
games you think are so stupid. Nuff.
Anyway, it's not my one true FAVORITE game, but I have a soft spot for Recon
from Palladium. I know, it looks and plays like it was written (and edited)
in one night at someone's kitchen table, but the game has personality and
atmosphere. Despite the blatant simplicity and gaping holes in the rules,
the game is actually pretty vivid. It is also very quick and dirty. You say
the characters die to easily? Well, even if your guy gets dusted in the last
ten minutes of the game, you still have time to roll up another character
and have him airlifted in on the medi-vac chopper that takes your dead guy
out. Definitely a candidate for the Worst rpg Poll, but still a unique game
and one of my personal favorites.
Okay, now a note for you flame-happy butt blossoms. This was not intended
to start a discourse on the virtues (or lack thereof) of Recon or Palladium
or whatever. But hey, if you got flames, let `em fly. I fully support every
person's right to make a fool of him or her self in a public forum.
Regards,
-- __ __ ______ __ __
Chadd L. VanZanten -- SL...@CC.USU.EDU + /\ \/\ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \
``By that time, my lunges were aching + \ \ \_\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \
for air!'' + \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
--Mystery Science Theater 3,000 + \/_____/ \/_____/ \/_____/
Mark Grismer
Dragons are some of the easiest things to kill. Consider the following:
1) A Dragon hatchling (only hatchlings are allowed as player characters;
not adult dragons) can only metamorph for a few hours per day. All other
times they are obviously dragons.
2) EVERYTHING knows how powerful dragons are; and like Glitter Boys they
are PRIMARY targets.
3) Dragons have high PPE and are easy to track by Psi-Stalkers and the
like.
4) Dragons are incable of getting physical skills and/or weapon
profeciencies. Thus giving them virtually no bonuses and little to no
offensive capabilities. They don't even get spells until third level (and
event then only 1st level spells).
Thus you have the following scenario:
A Line Walker; Juicer; Dragon Hatchling; Glitter Boy; Borg; Headhunter; and
Wilderness Scout are out in the Wilderness when they come accross a typical
coalition patrol (Dog Pack Reconnaissance Squad: 4 Light Dog Pack Soldiers
(1 Lakeland Terrier 1 Golden Retriever 1 Airedale Terrier and 1 Foxhound; 2
Dog Pack soldiers (1 Wolfhound and 1 Wolf); 1 Dog Pack second in command
(Rottweiler) and 1 Psi-Stalker). All on foot; of course. What happens?
Assuming the group gets initative; they could probably take out the
Psi-Stalker and maybe one to four of the others in the first attack.
The remaining members notice right away that there is a Dragon AND a
Glitter Boy in the group they are opposing and that they are hoplessly
out-gunned! A radio call goes out immediately and the patrol breaks to
attempt to flee.
The group would then take out a good number of the rest of the patrol; but
it is most likely at least one would survive. That one would keep tracking
the group; but stay as far away as possible. The tracking would be a sinch
(no roll needed) due to the fact that the quary contains either a Dragon or
a Glitter Boy; in this case BOTH.
The nearest base would send out at least a couple of Search and Destroy
Heavy Mechanized Squad; probably 2-4. Each consisting of: 2 Spider-Skull
Walkers; 2 or 3 IAR-2 Abolishers; 1 or 2 UAR-1 Enforcers; 1 SAMAS
Infantry/scout (grunt); and 1 SAMAS Military Specialist (squad leader).
These squads would rendevous with the survivor(s) of the patrol; via radio.
And then go forth to anniahlate the group; the targets of first priority
being the Glitter Boy and the Dragon (followed by the Borg); PROBABLY IN
THAT ORDER!
So you have 4-12 Abolishers; 2-8 Enforcers; 4-8 Spider Skull Walkers; 2-4
SAMAS (as scouts) and 2-4 SAMAS squad leaders out to get the above group.
The Dragon could be killed with one or two volleys from any one Enforder
(no dodge for a volley of 4 or more) and the Abolishers could probably take
out the glitter boy. Casualties among the Coalition would be minmal; and
the rest of the party would probably wind up fleeing.
If the Dragon is lucky he MIGHT be able to make his teleport roll and get
his hinny out of there. But then he is deserting his comrades and if they
live they will assuradly have words with him/her.
-- Via DLG Pro v0.985b
Les Jenkins
wrote:
BK> Truthfully-speaking (from only my own heart), I still have
BK> yet to find an RPG by FASA that was EVER playable.
BK> Worst RPG (ironically with some of the best background):
BK> The Doctor Who Role-Playing Game (...by FASA, no less. I
BK> read through the game several times and I wouldn't touch it with a
BK> ten-foot pole. I love the informatin in it, but the game system is
BK> so awful that I'd rather die than play it.)
I, being bother an RPGer and an avid Doctor Who fan, was really upset at
how bad an RPG this was. I managed to bend the rules around enough to make
it playable for awhile, but have seriously considered creating my own DW
RPG.
BK> Game That Looked Cool But My Players Couldn't Cope
BK> Ghostbusters by West End Games (uh, Paranoia too)
BK> My player simply could NOT grasp the idea of semi-non
BK> massive destruction game play. Their deductive skills were nil.
BK> Augh! Thankfully I've found some gamers who are far more
BK> intelligent. Still haven't played GB. (And it was such a FUN
BK> game!)
Actually, both of these games are pretty cool once you get the players into
the spirit of things. Ghostbusters was made to be the original play by
email or on a BBS message base RPG in my mind. Had more than one hilarious
game run on my own BBS as it's easy, quick, and doesn't take a lot of
preperation.
Paranoia is a blast once the players get used to the idea of dieing often.
In fact, my own group has quite consistantly gotten into fire-fights with
themselves without any prodding on my part anymore. (I don't even have to
GIVE them a reason.) "YOU'RE BREATHING MY AIR!!!! Zap zap zap." :-)
-- Via DLG Pro v0.985b
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
* ** ** * | Disclaimer? This is supposed to be a disclaimer? |
* * * * * * | Les's Place: The Mansion (313)391-6856 300-9600 HST |
* ** ** * | Provided as a Public Service to all Amiga owners |
* * * * |-------------------------------------------------------|
*** * * *** |les%lppl...@vela.acs.oakland.edu or ..vela!lppl!les|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Grismer
able to kill a person at range. It doesn't in any other system (other than
maybe HarnMaster) that I know of.
As far as no Range Penalties in Rifts:
1.) There is now: if you are at greater than 60 feet you miss on a 1-8
instead of a 1-4. (i.e. you need a 9 or better to hit instead of a 5 or
better)
2.) There are bonuses for weapon systems used at close range. The range
given for ranged weapons in Palladium systems are given as "Effective
Range" That is: the range at which they are effect and have no range
penalty. I believe the Compendum of Arms and Armor gives penalties for
shooting at beyond Effective range.
3.) Most modern weapons; especially those in Rifts; use targeting or laser
targeting sights. It is very difficult to miss with laser targeting.
Les Jenkins
wrote:
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
JO> Gee, the way I remember things Torg came out before Rifts....
This is true, however, advance word on RIFTS had shown up in several
magazine articles long before it was released. Of course, I am sure that no
game developers ever read RPG magazines and wouldn't possible say "Oh, that
sounds like a neat idea..."
-- Via DLG Pro v0.985b
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Les Jenkins
wrote:
[...first two examples deleted...]
JO> RIFTS (and Palladium in general) needs a lot of help. Anything that
JO> allows practically indestructable dragons to be PCs alongside normal,
JO> easily killable humans just isn't balanced properly. I also don't
JO> care for the fact that it really isn't anything more than a very
JO> expensive conversion system between Pallaidum's various games set in
JO> a
JO> worthless post-apocalypse setting.
Gimmie a break. Dragons, even as player characters, are not indestructable.
In fact, player characters are not allowed to take an adult dragon (600+
Years of age) as a character. Only hatchlings and hatchlings are just as
vulnerable as any other character. Borgs typically have more M.D.C. than a
dragon hatchling and Glitter Boys do to. If there was one class that was
the more powerful than any of the others it would have to be the Juicers.
Some of them can get pretty sick, but even then they are not way out of
line with the other characters classes.
As for RIFTS being nothing but a conversion system. I disagree. The
original RIFTS book does not contain any rules on converting characters
from the other games outside of a blurb stating that Robotech and TMNT
characters can be used with no modifications. RIFTS provided for a complete
fantasy setting with it's own set of classes and powers and magic. The
BONUS to the game is that any other character from any other game can be
brought across if one should choose to. If anything, this makes the world
of RIFTS even more varied than any other RPG on the market! The RIFTS
conversion book, which came out long after the original RIFTS book, has
rules not just for bringing characters into RIFTS, but for sending them
back OUT into other games. (If, for example, your players were to step
through a Rift into modern day Earth) RIFTS, as it is, stands on it's own
quite while without the other games. Unlike 2nd Edition AD&D wherein you
first buy the Player's Handbook, then the DM's guide, then the complete
fighters handbook, the complete thief's handbook, the complete magic user's
handbook, the complete elve's handbook, the complete dwarvin handbook, ad
nauseum. At least RIFTS has everything you need for a complete campaign in
one book.
Les Jenkins
wrote:
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
>
A> Sorry, RIFTS is a rip-off from TORG, if you go by release dates.
A> RIFTS
A> also looks like it went through a lot less development time than did
A> TORG.
Release dates don't mean much. Advanced word on many projects is often
released to the press long before a project is finished.
I am not certain what about TORG makes you think it has more development
time than RIFTS.
Bertil Jonell
>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
Any and all non-european-mideval-fantasy game that uses feets, inches and
other non-creative anachronisms.
>|Email : ma...@uk.ac.warwick.csv |
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
dsim...@yang.earlham.edu
> In article <200...@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, seaw...@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>>
>> In my own opinion, I'd give the booby prize to the tremendously
>> complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
>> game.
>
> complex? sure. unplayable? not at all. i introduced whole stacks of
> people to gaming with a slightly mutated c&s back in the early 80s. none
> of them found it unplayable. in fact most, when later introduced to d&d,
> found it "nearly unplayable."
>
> rp
I agree. I am probably more than a little bit sentimental about C&S. It
was probably the first fantasy game that I played (besides ADnD). At one
point it did not seem to be too horribly complex, and I've always had a
fascination for their character creation system. Unfortunately, they
wimped out and had a modified adnd combat system which, aside from the
PCF, was kind of boring. It is true, making a character was extremely
complex, and the magic system was a mastery of obfuscation where all magic
users had to actually memorize a portion of their spell. Naturally, I
just threw out whatever didn't strike my fancy.
Sorry about making a short story long. It seems that C&S is being
criticized because it is not the type of game that people would like to
play. Still, it was better edited than the first edition of paranoia or
DnD. It was more historically accurate and aware than nearly any other
fanatasy game in existence, with the possible exception of Pendragon. Its
grasp of actual european mideavel folk lore is possibly second only to
White Wolf and Pendragon. Its combat was fast and not unfairly abstracted
(certainly more fair than ADnD's one minute mellee rounds). Its magic
system was so complex that most game masters and players probably used it
sparingly (which I think is a plus). It was one of the first skill based
games. Granted, it had not yet broken out of the experience point mold,
but it had already come a long way from its predecesors.
I don't want to convince anyone that it is a particularly good game.
However, when I want to check on source material for its period I would tend to
go to Pendragon, Faeries (if I owned it), and C&S. Actually, I have
become much better in the last couple of years at getting information from
primary and secondary sources rather than Role Playing Games, but these
writers seem to have taken their interest in the period at least as
seriously as I take mine now.
David Simkins
dsim...@earlham.edu
As always, I'm expounding endlessly on topic which are irrelevant. Such
is my nature as I have defined it.
Ronin Ironpig
> I'd also like to take a moment to defend Torg - whose concept
>predates Rifts (or at least its release). I would like to point out the
>similarity of its premises to that of Amber - an infinite of universes,
>with different physical laws (axioms in Torg). In Amber, the only interaction
>between them possible is through the princes of Amber - in Torg, the
>only interaction possible is through the Dark Lords (or whatever the
>general term is, I forget).
Well, I don't know about Torg, but when Erick Wujcik came to London and ran
a diceless game with our group about two years ago, we talked to him about
the new Palladium stuff, and one of the things he mentioned (including Amber)
was RIFTS. He talked about Kevin Siembieda working for more than five years
on the project and trying to bring out supplements for the other games that
would allow Rifts to tie in better with their multiverse (tm). This was about
three months before Rifts came out here and we found it a little hard to
understand the concept at the time, but I've played it now and it works fine.
I'm not a great Palladium fan, but it's a system that's better than AD&D1 and
dead simple IMO, so I enjoy the games. Except, of course, for Robotech, as I
think the internal artwork is better than the game itself. But there you go.
To those replies to my slag mode about the games I don't like... Yep, funny
how opinions differ. Then again, I also put a thing at the end of the article
that said I'm writing my own game. I have over twenty RPG's and I could run
nearly all of them (Cyberspace is based on SpaM, so I'd probably have a few
problems with that), but I'm fussy, so there's always something I don't like.
I'll play them, but I rarely run a published game these days. What this says
about my attitude to the hobby, I don't know, but I've always been a supporter
of the premise, if you don't like it, do it yourself. So there, ya boo sucks.
--
N Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig - gdg...@cck.cov.ac.uk - The one and only
"It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine" - |)
- REM - |\ <> |\| | |\|
Opinions for sale... Only 2 cents each! - IRONPIG
Ronin Ironpig
>system, but FGU has some fine stuff to its credit.
Woops! Yes, I forgot about Bushido... Best Feudal Japan game there is... Sorry.
As for the element of surprise in CoC and GURPS: Prisoner and other games where
because of the nature of the game the players know what's going to happen, I'd
like to justify myself a bit. Okay, I understand that when you get a game, you
pretty much know what you're getting - the same goes for books, films, etc. It
all depends on the audience/players/readers. If you get a horror book, or go
to see a horror film, you expect to be horrified. I personally, also like a
lot of suspense in a story (because I _hate_ it, if you know what I mean). But
I also abhor predictability. If you know how the end's going to turn out, it
spoils it completely for me. It's just one of those things. If I'd seen A
Nightmare On Elm Street after they'd made NOES2: Freddy's Revenge, then I
probably would have hated it - because I knew he would come back. He's not dead
at the end. There's also a film called To Live And Die In LA, where the cool
maverick cop-type hero gets killed by the baddie right at the end and it throws
you completely, and I love that film for it.
So, you can stretch something out to the full, but if you know your character's
going to die horribly or go insane, then it's time for suicide, IMO. Why bother
rolling up characters that are waiting to become meat for the beast? Especially
if the world won't believe that the beast exists. Ever. I can see that the only
premise behind a CoC character is that it tries to stave off the invasion of
Earth by the Lovecraftian War Machine, which seems almost hopeless, but not
quite. I don't know. For some reason Vampire looks much more fun...
James Davis Nicoll
thoughts. Nifty game, despite the mechanics. I will admit that as
a piece of *technical writing* it leaves a lot to be desire.
In about a month, I'll be running a sort of Easy Rider (with fangs)
campaign. I was very pleased with how my 'Night of the Living' session
went. Romero's people would have done better if they had been more willing
to drive cars over small children.
James Nicoll
norr...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
>>In article <1992Jan9.1...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, jo...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:
>>>The worst frp/rpg? There are so may to choose from [...]
> [text deleted]
> complex and nearly unplayable Chivalry and Sorcery. God, what a dog of a
> game.
>
>
> /^\
> ;;;
Absolutely. I played in a C&S game once, many moons ago. The very first combat
was against six or seven orcs, and it lasted over two hours!! And you thought
Rolemaster was bad news!! :-)
Jamie Norrish "I don't PLAY Rolemaster"
norr...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz "Deep down I'm really superficial"
My views are not those of the New Zealand government - unfortunately!
Ian Borchardt
>Chalk Chivalry & Sorcery's unplayability up to the fact that it is POORLY
>edited.
I always liked the origional edition of C&S, which was actually rather
nicely edited (although not for the beginner), but printed in an
atrocious reduced typeface. Practically unreadable. However a must
was the Judge's Guild C&S reference screen.
When the new edition came out you could read it, but even knowing the
origional rules you could not easily find your way about. Back in the
box it went, and back to my old well-thumbed (ie: falling apart) rules.
--
Ian Borchardt the staff is broken
ibor...@physics.adelaide.edu.au the sword is sheathed
Medical Physicist the cup is drained
University of Adelaide/Royal Adelaide Hospital the coin is spent
Lester Ward
>checking out any games I'm not familiar with that lots of people think
>is really good. So what are your recommendations?
Not really my favorite game, but interesting was Bushido. It was a
samurai/ninja type game. It had some bad things about it (lack of
adventure support, for example), but had a very neat skill improvement
system, as well as skill-to-success system (hard to explain). Very
combat oriented (no pun intended), (for example, Iijustu, the art of
cutting on the draw, was a separate skill), but the genre of the game
allowed that in a way not too many other would.
Wordman
Fangshi
>In article <9ghc...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> ma...@warwick.ac.uk (Maupts and Ninjas forever...) writes:
>>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
>
> Any and all non-european-mideval-fantasy game that uses feets, inches and
>other non-creative anachronisms.
>
Japanese measuring systems, but why bother? The players are likely to be
somewhat more familiar (:>) with European systems, so why force them to learn
someone else's measuring system? I mean, if you're doing a space game and
everyone is an alien from some weird planet, what's the point in making them
say, "I run forward 8 cklhtlgs and kill the guy"? I mean, they'll just have
to look on some table and remember that 1 cklhtlg is 15.76 inches, so 8 of
them is about 11 feet or so. They'll end up converting to a measuring system
which is familiar anyway, so why bother? Aren't there better things to worry
about?
-Rain
--
******************************************************************************
* Fangshi : xieshu my specialty * Please send information via e-mail to *
* My card: XV (Pick a card....) * ci...@midway.uchicago.edu *
* "We are ready to believe you" * *
Les Jenkins
wrote:
>Actually, I thought the TORG concept was okay except it seemed awfully
>close to a rip-off on RIFTS from Palladium Books.
TZQ> That's funny, TORG was published about two monthes before RIFTS
TZQ> was...
Yeah yeah, we've heard it all before. RIFTS was over five years in the
making too. I keep telling you guys that release dates don't mean anything.
Patrick Bridges
Persoanall, my favorite game is AMBER, followed by White Wolf's
Vampire. I prefer games that emphasize role-playing, and not
mechanics, and in my opinion, Amber, even though our campaign is just
getting started, is currently my favorite. Getting rid of the dice and
many of the other maechanics, is IMHO, the best RPG designing move I
have yet to see.
Using dice:
Player: My fighter ducks under the leap of the bear, preparing
to
<Interupting> GM: Cut with the description and roll the dice
Not using dice:
Player: I duck under the leap of the bear, protecting myself
using my cloak, and as he passes overhead, slash him in the gut with
my sword.
GM (Consulting his notes on the bear-thing): How good is your
sword, and you warfare?
Player: Deadly damage, and I'm second ranked in Warfare.
GM: Ok, you cut a deep gash in the underside of the bear, but
he's still going. Since you're such a high rank in warfare though, you
get to move a good bit before he does.
Obviously this system is largely up to the GM, but the stats of
the participants and the moves they decide to make are what really
decide what happens.
This system takes good role-players to work well, but is MUCH
more fun, IMHO, than having to roll dice....
Patrick Bridges
pat...@erc.msstate.edu
Richard Bark
> The WORST frp of ALL time (out of print now, but you can see copies of it
> and the few modules published for it going for a quarter apiece at better
> con auctions everywhere)
>
> MAN, MYTH & MAGIC
>
>
> --Obscurus
> --enter of your own free will, but my mind is my own
>
_______
I was wondering when someone was gonna list this game. Although I never
played it, I saw it sit in a $1 box at a local gaming store for as many
years as the place was open (about 5yrs). It never sd, even at $1!
Be seeing you.
Rogue 417
--
rogu...@netlink.cts.com (Richard Bark)
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Richard Bark
>
> OK - run this by your players (This to whoever it was who thought
> that Call of Cthulhu was a bad idea.) 'I want you to play in a setting
> where you are a prisoner of a power you don't even know. There will be
> plenty of adventures where you try to escape, but you'll never succeed.'
> I am also a fan of the series (although I've only seen about twelve
> of the episodes), but I do *not* think it is a good idea for a role-playing
> game. 'Look, Bob, I know your character got screwed again, and has gained
> nothing for his troubles, but at least he made a social statement.'
>
> To whoever mentioned the Conan frp and Indiana Jones, thank
> for the reminder. Now what do you think of TSR?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Kim | "Lord, what fools these mortals be."
> j...@cuphyd.phys.columbia.edu | - Puck
> Columbia University |
Sry John, I don't think you got the point of mresponse. I agree that the
Prisoner worldbook probably won't behe most exciting game your players
experience if they start off in the Village. However, if you use the
Prisoner worldbook as an aspect of an already existing campaign, there is
room for lots of fun. Inserting the characters into a setting where they
cannot trust anyone, even each other is a new twist that some people (myself
included) would find VERY interesting and enjoyable. The key is to NOT let
your players know that they have been put into the Prisoner world, rather
that they find themself in a place that is VERY strange and unpredictable.
I do agree that Conan & Indiana Jones arbad games!
Be seeing you.
Rogue417
Dustin Lee Laurence
>Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
>heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
>now it's time to turn it around:
>WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
Hero, 4th ed. No question. And oddly enough, I didn't see anyone
nominate hero for their personal worst game, either. (Though I'm sure
that it'll happen now that I brought it up.)
And do yourself a favor, and read the AMBER rules. No matter what game
you play, the mature perspective of that book will probably be good
for your game. (And read the books, if you haven't; they are wonderful.)
--
Dustin "I realize that I'm destroying your
character, but I'm very pleased with his
laur...@alice.wonderland.caltech.edu personal development on the way down."
-- Mark Kreitler
James Gordon Currie
Hoorayy!!
Fianally, someone on the net that likes Palladium (or at least
Rifts) as much as I do... I also agree with almost everything (s)he said
about the system. The only thing Ican correct him/her on, is that a
dragon matures at 300 years (at least MOST do). Also, how can you say that
dragons are so over-powered... The most damage one of the dragons in the
system book is about 4d6MDC. When you consider that most robot powered armour
does 1d6x10 MDC, and that dragons only regenerate 1d4x10 MDC every 5 MINUTES
(combat rounds being 15 seconds), and that most robots (and thier pilots)
attack 4 times per round... The Power Armour (including the Glitter Boy) tend
to outclass the dragons until they can gain MASSIVE spell knowledge (by about
6th level or so, 3 levels after they gain magic spell use.)
Personally, my favourite OCC's for Rifts are the Psi-Stalker, Borg,
Wilderness Scout, and Cyberknight. (though I do enjoy the Great Horned
Dragon - the weakest in terms of MDC, and breath weapon damage, but the best
non-Mind Melter psis in the game)
Ciao
J G Currie
Walker Aumann
>Worst RPG?
>I agree that C&S and P&P were pretty bad and complex.
>But if you _really_ want complex? Try Swords' Path to Glory and their
>suppliment for modern fire arms (can't remember the publishers).
Sword's Path Glory, and Spectrum Small Arms, by Leading Edge Games.
>In Swords Path the combat is done on a hex grid. The sequencing
>of player actions uses a system similar to the terrible one in
>Car Wars version 1 where everything is done in small bursts -
>right down to the tenth of a second. Even acceleration is taken
>into account!
Twelth of a second. And it doesn't have the Car Wars problems of shooting
at the end of one second and again at the beginning of the next. Besides,
you didn't read carefully enough. In at least one of the editions of the
rulebook, movement was in the optional rules, so you don't need to use
acceleration unless you want to. Besides, it's not a FRP. They never
finished publishing everything.
> This might be all very well and realistic - a guy in plate
>mail taking longer to stop than someone who's not - but it is
>totally unplayable. As you can imagine, combat takes hours. In
>the example in the book, a small skirmish between two goodies and
>three baddies takes five pages.
Depends on how used to the system you are. We can do 30 on 30 fights in
under 3 hours (5 people playing). One on one fights take a few minutes.
Since we value the combat system more than other things, the system is
perfect for us. Leading Edge themselves were (when in peak form) able
to do 100 on 100 fights in less than a day.
>And the modern fire arms book...
> The human body is divided into 53 hit locations! Each
>location is thoroughly detailed with cross-sections showing where
>bone and flesh is, and the points needed to penetrate. When a
>bullet is fired, it is given a certain number of "penetration
>points". These points drop off due to range and armour. The
>remainder is impinged onto the crossection of the body - at the
>relevant hit location - and you can work out whether the bullet
>passed right through or got stuck in the bone. Then work out the
>hydrostatic shock if the bullet was supersonic, etc, etc, etc.
> As well as pages and pages of firearm tables detailing weapons
>from mediaeval times to the future. Is it playable as an RPG? No way!
Since it wasn't intended as an RPG, you're right. It's intended as a
combat system. You plug in whatever other things you want to make an RPG.
It's just not something you play without a calculator.
Besides, you missed all the *really* goofy things about Spectrum, which is
the reason they made Phoenix Command, which is somewhat simpler.
Walker Aumann
wal...@egg.gg.caltech.edu
Bertil Jonell
>In article <81...@chalmers.se> d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>In article <9ghc...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> ma...@warwick.ac.uk (Maupts and Ninjas forever...) writes:
>>>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
>>
>> Any and all non-european-mideval-fantasy game that uses feets, inches and
>>other non-creative anachronisms.
>>
>Now come on, here. I mean, sure, if you're doing a Japan game you _can_ use
>Japanese measuring systems, but why bother? The players are likely to be
>somewhat more familiar (:>) with European systems, so why force them to learn
>someone else's measuring system?
He he he. I admit that I like feets and stuff for the standard fantasy game.
This is because I think they give it a mideval flavour. And although my comment
was somewhat unclear I intended the line "as opposed to metrics" to be implied:)
>* Fangshi : xieshu my specialty * Please send information via e-mail to *
-bertil-
BTW: Does anyone know a good skill (points optional) based generic system that
use the metric system?
Brendan Scott
When I first tried to understand any FGU rules, I always had a hard
time.
When I didn't give up, and understood what they had to say I found
that games using their systems were always enjoyable.
By this I *do* mean Bushido, Space Opera and Villains and Vigilantes
(both versions) (okay, Aftermath was not the best, I admit it).
Further, Universe was an extremely enjoyable game. I especially
liked their skills section (and Delta Vee was coming close to
realistic).
Rolling up a character is half the fun!
Hey, if I don't like a rule it doesn't exist, if I don't understand
a rule, it doesn't exist either.
The only game for which I have had a solid dislike is Traveller.
I *still* don't understand why anyone would play it. (yech)
Later,
Brendan
--
#include <standard.disclaimer.h>
Yeeeeeeee-Haw! Jester's dead!
Ryk E Spoor
>>out of interest,what is the WORST frp out?(and why?)
> Any and all non-european-mideval-fantasy game that uses feets, inches and
>other non-creative anachronisms.
That's a pretty nitpicky way to condemn something. Most games thus far
have been developed in the US, where (for better or worse... probably worse)
that is the dominant measuring system. To be honest, I've been using the metric
system for almost 18 years now, and I STILL don't like using it for
descriptions of things; I simply CANNOT get a "feel" for metric units. Oh,
they're great for calculations, no doubt about it (no one would prefer
calculations involving 5280, 16, 32, 4, etc., when they COULD just be moving
a decimal point) but if someone says that something is a kilometer long or
masses 34.5 kilograms, it means NOTHING to me insofar as visualization... I
have to convert it.
I assume that the American game designers (mainly designing for
their home audience) feel the same way.
I must admit that I force myself to use metrics when writing
most things, however...
Sea Wasp
Ryk E Spoor
>jh...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>> OK - run this by your players (This to whoever it was who thought
>> that Call of Cthulhu was a bad idea.) 'I want you to play in a setting
>> where you are a prisoner of a power you don't even know. There will be
>> plenty of adventures where you try to escape, but you'll never succeed.'
>> of the episodes), but I do *not* think it is a good idea for a role-playing
>> game. 'Look, Bob, I know your character got screwed again, and has gained
>> nothing for his troubles, but at least he made a social statement.'
This strongly depends on how literally you take the originals, and
what you do with them. With CoC I just Kirk it; "I don't believe in no-win
scenarios."
I make the Mythos beings very terrible, frightening, likely to
kill you off, but NOT unstoppable if you have brains and luck... and not
utterly invincible. HPL's characters were mostly rather ordinary schmucks
who did the Wrong Thing, and who were stuck using old-style tech. Maybe, as
the Sourcebook says, a Nuked Cthulhu will just reform as a glowing, radioactive
Cthulhu a bit later, but there are other ways of dealing with his kind.
I agree with Rogue about the Prisoner -- if you make it part of another
overall campaign it could be very useful.
Sea Wasp
michael kelly
|> Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the WORST game I
|> ever owned (still have it in storage at my mother's house)
|> back in the old days when everyone was publishing a stinky
|> rpg, but one of the top ones was a British hardcover import
|> called simply _Fantasy Wargaming_. The book included long
|> treatises on why one had to make a wonderful realistic setting,
|> why D&D and D&D playing was so bad, and then followed with
|> a poorly written set of combined rpg and wargame rules. The
|> magic system and combat system were neither simple nor interesting,
|> skills were undefined, and the "piety" system required minute by
|> minute monitoring as you either sinned or were noble. And it
|> was never clear WHY you should bother.
|>
I used to scan a copy of this book at the local Waldenbooks...it
sat on the shelf for about six years (the same copy, it had dog-eared pages).
I finally picked up a "book-of-the-month-club" sized edition for $0.50...and
I'm not sure it was worth it.
I agree with all of the posts about the FASA rpgs being unplayable as
written, even though I found the mechanics to be pretty reasonable. IMHO the
FASA rpgs suffer the same problem as GURPS...character development. It is
very easy to go into any college (or high school for that matter) and find
people that have well over one hundred points in skills, yet GURPS insists that
starting characters be *extremely* limited.
Common examples that GURPS overates:
Fluency in several languages
Familiarity with technology (qv Driving an automobile, using a computer)
Geographical familiarity
Family/Patron
Athletics (playing sports, rules, trivia)
I always found it strange that a character with "eidetic memory" usually
had to end up with a few 25 point enemies to offset it.
Brief Rambling: I suppose if modern day folks are such high point values,
that must mean that we all have a major enemy waiting for us...I suppose the US
government qualifies?
mlk
Keith Ammann
In a previous article, s...@duke.cs.duke.edu (Steve Owen) says:
>Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
>heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
>now it's time to turn it around:
>
>WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
Shadowrun! :-P to all you hoseheads out there ragging on the system --
despite its flaws, I can't honestly say I've found a better one! The
target number/number of successes concept is one I wish I'd seen a
long time ago, the graded damage system beats the idea of hit points
with a crooked stick, and magic causing fatigue is a much better idea
than forgetting spells or having a limited number of "mana points" or
some such thing. Moreover, the only reason I ever liked AD&D in the
first place was magic -- I'm more attracted to futuristic settings
than to historical ones. Any game that can give a half-assed excuse
for blending magic and futurism has my attention.
My second favorite is Call of Cthulhu, but with the condition that
it's only any good if you've got a _very_ good Keeper (GM), one who
can keep you from ever being sure exactly what it is you're fighting
and who role-plays insane people well.
Yours ob'tly,
Specter
--
justify your existence - question authority - be excellent to each other
think for yourself - think for someone else - aa...@cleveland.freenet.edu
keith ammann - eat too much spaghetti and spin around as fast as you can
tell someone you love 'em - go easy - listen to the kinks - live with honor
Steven King, Software Archaeologist
>Game That Looked Cool But My Players Couldn't Cope
> Ghostbusters by West End Games (uh, Paranoia too)
> My player simply could NOT grasp the idea of semi-non
>massive destruction game play. Their deductive skills were nil.
>Augh! Thankfully I've found some gamers who are far more
>intelligent. Still haven't played GB. (And it was such a FUN
>game!)
We had a really great GM running Ghostbusters. He ran it strictly as a
beer & pretzels game, so he took a different tack. The *characters* were
the same from game to game. The *players* changed.
Basically, he had half a dozen pre-gen characters that formed a ghostbusting
team, based above a comic-book store in Detroit. It was a "gee, we're
bored, let's play Ghostbusters" type game, so he never had the same group
of players from adventure to adventure. Whatever players were there got
to bicker over which characters they'd take. We were all experienced
role-players and it worked pretty well.
I once got mind-swapped into another character's body. The GM ruled that
all the physical attributes stayed with the body... and brownie points were
physical attributes! You shoulda SEEN how fast we burnt up each other's
carefully hoarded brownie points!
Neatest part of the system: The ghost die. When the players roll, if
the ghost comes up something bad happens to the players. When the GM
rolls, if the ghost comes up something bad happens to the players.
2nd neatest part of the system: Brownie points. Kinda like experience points,
but you get to use them to directly influence die rolls. You earn brownie
points by buying the GM cookies, giving him backrubs, making really bad
puns...
--
-------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------
"I am the new Number 2." | Steven King
"Who is Number 1?" | Motorola Cellular
"YOU are Number 6." | ki...@rtsg.mot.com
Ryk E Spoor
>Shadowrun! :-P to all you hoseheads out there ragging on the system --
>despite its flaws, I can't honestly say I've found a better one! The
>target number/number of successes concept is one I wish I'd seen a
>long time ago, the graded damage system beats the idea of hit points
>with a crooked stick, and magic causing fatigue is a much better idea
>than forgetting spells or having a limited number of "mana points" or
>some such thing. Moreover, the only reason I ever liked AD&D in the
I can agree and disagree with this one. I agree that the concepts,
particularly the graded damage system, are excellent, and I also love the
background -- I designed a similar mileiu myself several years ago, but
they did it better.
However, while the fatigue for spells as an idea is okay, the
operation of it is not. It's too easy for a beginner mage to blow him/her
self to kingdom come with relatively easy spells (and the minuses on actions
send you quickly into the Death Spiral). I prefer mana points, which to me
represent the idea that you have a limited amount of power to perform your
mystic feats... without hurting yourself. After THAT I might like to use
the fatigue rules, meaning that you could do a certain amount of magic
safely and certainly, but that once you started pushing things it got
very dangerous.
>My second favorite is Call of Cthulhu, but with the condition that
>it's only any good if you've got a _very_ good Keeper (GM), one who
>can keep you from ever being sure exactly what it is you're fighting
>and who role-plays insane people well.
CoC is indeed one of those games that absolutely requires a good
gamemaster. Mood is EVERYTHING in CoC, and if you can't set the mood you
should NEVER try to run it.
I'm not sure that I HAVE a favorite game; as above, so much depends
on the people USING the game. AD&D certainly has things to recommend it,
the major one being that it's universally recognizable and most people can
use it fairly well. Space Opera (nyah to all you naysayers!) is still the
best space game ever made, but you can't GET it any more. TFOS is by far the
EASIEST game I've ever encountered, and hysterically funny as well.
Shadowrun, while it has some nice ideas and background, can get rather
complex and confusing (most SR games I've seen are spent with half the
time playing, and the other half arguing over what the rules mean). GURPS
has the virtue of having been designed specifically to cover any and all
kinds of gaming you'd ever want to do, but (my bias against point-based
games aside) it has some holes the size of aircraft carriers in its
logic and there are some genres (Supers, notably) that it just can't
deal with well.
Sea Wasp
Chadd VanZanten
>
>
> I prefer games that emphasize role-playing, and not
> mechanics, and in my opinion, Amber, even though our campaign is just
> getting started, is currently my favorite. Getting rid of the dice and
> many of the other maechanics, is IMHO, the best RPG designing move I
> have yet to see.
>
> Using dice:
> Player: My fighter ducks under the leap of the bear, preparing
> to
> <Interupting> GM: Cut with the description and roll the dice
>
> Not using dice:
> Player: I duck under the leap of the bear, protecting myself
> using my cloak, and as he passes overhead, slash him in the gut with
> my sword.
[More Amber accolades]
> This system takes good role-players to work well, but is MUCH
> more fun, IMHO, than having to roll dice....
Oh, certainly, this has been my experience exactly. Here is an excerpt
from a game I recently played that used those rotten, good-for-nothing
dice:
With dice--
Player: Okay, my cleric is going to--
GM: (interupting): Shut your gob, no role playing allowed in this game.
You've got your dice in front of you now use them.
Player: But I've got to tell you what I want my character to do..
GM: (grabbing player's throat): I said roll those dice, you stupid player.
If you want roleplaying or anything like that you just go and try one
of those new-fangled DICELESS systems. Now roll the dice or get the hell
out of here!
And now without dice--
Player: My cleric dives for cover, acts heroically and eventually wins.
GM: Whoa, that is some roleplaying. Congratulations, you just slaughtered
a regiment of Zombie Hoar Bats. Whew! What a session, I'm exhausted.
You are absolutely correct Patrick, games that use dice do not allow any
creativity or role-playing and no game can possibly compare to Amber. Those
poor slobs who are forced to roll dice are just pathetic. Let's convert the
entire net together, shall we?
Regards,
-- __ __ ______ __ __
Chadd L. VanZanten -- SL...@CC.USU.EDU + /\ \/\ \ /\ ___\ /\ \/\ \
``By that time, my lunges were aching + \ \ \_\ \\ \___ \\ \ \_\ \
for air!'' + \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
--Mystery Science Theater 3,000 + \/_____/ \/_____/ \/_____/
Todd Howard
>Shadowrun! :-P to all you hoseheads out there ragging on the system --
>despite its flaws, I can't honestly say I've found a better one! The
I like SR, but I'd disagree.
>target number/number of successes concept is one I wish I'd seen a
>long time ago, the graded damage system beats the idea of hit points
>with a crooked stick, and magic causing fatigue is a much better idea
No hit points?? Who are you kidding. Everyone has 9, and damage is
either 1, 3, 6, or dead (all).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No cause is so right that one cannot find | Todd Howard
a fool following it." |
-L. Niven | (oho...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Rogers
>Cyber and magic, oil and water, hippies and cops, nitroglycerine and
>sudden violent motion... enough said.
>-----------------------------------------------------------
Ready? <CLACK, CHICK CHICK, CLACK!> Burn em.
What? Come on! Cybernetic magic using elves in Seattle! That's beautiful!
You're down on the best (sometimes the only) thing about the game, the
setting is a kick. Sure, the system isn't the smoothest but show which one
is? I have played virtually all and they are all glitchy. Some of my favorite
FRP characters of all time have been Shadowrun characters, I like the
genre and I think it can produce some good solid grit that is missing from
most games. You want bad? Look at anything using Friday Night Fire Fight as
the combat system, or maybe old rules Traveller. "They shoot, they hit, you
die instantly." That's not realism, that's sadism.
-------------------------
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
-------------------------
Bruce Onder
>That's funny, TORG was published about two monthes before RIFTS was...
And you could see hints of it in ads placed in Dragon Magazine months,
maybe years, before it hit the stores:
Is your player character ready?
:)
Bruce
--
Bruce W. Onder on...@isi.edu
But still I'd rather be famous than righteous or holy
Any day, any day, any day
Bruce Onder
>This is true, however, advance word on RIFTS had shown up in several
>magazine articles long before it was released. Of course, I am sure that no
>game developers ever read RPG magazines and wouldn't possible say "Oh, that
>sounds like a neat idea..."
Ha! TORG was being hyped for the better part of a year before it was
released!
Andrew David Weiland
>
>Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
>heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
>now it's time to turn it around:
>
>WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
>
TORG wins the award for the most adventurous game system i've ever seen
that actually works. The strange background, the cards (yes, cards),
and the heroic style of play are both its best assets and greatest
liabilities. But there are many other things to like about TORG, once
you've accepted the setting.
Ars Magica wins the award for the most well crafted system. It's the
only game i've seen that does everything it tries to do, and does it
elegantly. I'd love to play using the basic rules even without the
magic system in any setting. The magic system is both colorful and well
thought out, and the setting is unusual but very playable.
Harnmaster takes the second place, and wins in the realism department.
The only thing i dislike about it are a couple small rules. . . and the
fact that you have to learn a hundred new place names :-)
Shadowrun wins for the worst game i play because it's got the best magic
system i've ever seen. Like the system it needs a little patching
before you run, but its eminently worth it. It's the way all magic
systems should be.
HERO and Runequest recieve honorable mention as pioneers. Though i have
problems with both systems, i can't ignore the contributions they've
made to gaming in general.
The Metagame will be my favorite system when it's finished, because i
wrote it. But i'll always keep a place in my heart for the above.
------------------------------------------------
| Andrew D. M. U. Weiland | aw...@andrew.cmu.edu |
------------------------------------------------
| "If you _really_ don't know God's reasons, how can you |
| know God is good? Maybe God's goodness is really evil |
| and just looks good to us because we cannot understand |
| the true evil purposes behind it?
|
------------------------------------------------
dsim...@yang.earlham.edu
>
> Yup. Let's face it; nobody except an expert is going to do a subject justice.
> If your GM for a game set in China isn't an expert on Chinese culture, etc.,
> what are you to do? Simply REFUSE TO PLAY because it won't be accurate? I
> think not. The most important thing about a worldbook is that the environment
> FEELS right, not that it is right.
>
> --
> -Doug Gibson
> send replies to: do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
> Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has any idea what I am doing;
> they just pay me to do it.
Then why can't we get experts to write them? If the game authors realized
that they could really teach people something through their RPG
supplements, I think they might pay more attention to what they put in. A
supplement on China, writen by someone who has intensively studied Chinese
culture, may not be perfect (experts always disagree), but it could be
very interesting and even useful.
Granted, it would be hard to find an expert who wants to take the time to
write a supplement, but if you really want to get a good role playing
setting you could always read a textbook. (I'm serious by the way...)
David Simkins
dsim...@earlham.edu
Michael Sandy
>In <1992Jan10.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> at...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>>In a previous article, ci...@quads.uchicago.edu (Fangshi) says:
>>That's nice. I'm a molecular biologist/virologist with training in
>>ecology and zoology, and I would have to say that EVERY GAME ON EARTH
>>has the WORST rules for disease, animal/monster distribution, use of
>>scientific skills (although MegaTraveller's is the least laughable by
>>one ten-millionth of a chuckle).
>>Let me tell you, the informal talking I do about the research process
>>and the progress of viral diseases is MUCH better than any drivel you
>>would ever read or like. Anyone read ANY game in existence out there?
>>Take my advice, DON'T!
Um, I think one of the general reasons why the rules for diseases and such
aren't emphasized in Role Playing Games is that given the rule-bending/
abusing nature of most rpg'ers a game with realistic rules would spend
a disproportionate amount of time dealing with the spread of disease...
RPG's have an unsavory reputation as is among the mundanes for the sorcery
and abuse-of-religions it has, how much worse if the players involve
themselves in bio-warfare???
It is my experience that the more detailed the rules on a given topic in
an RPG the more often it become a focus for role-playing.
The only games genre which could _possibly_ benefit from a good disease
system is a Horror genre. (A cyberpunk genre might also benefit as well...)
Michael Sandy
meh...@reed.edu
--
meh...@reed.bitnet (Michael Sandy)
Dustin Lee Laurence
[...]
> I always found it strange that a character with "eidetic memory" usually
>had to end up with a few 25 point enemies to offset it.
Perhaps because they make it too effective? Nah, couldn't be it.
> Brief Rambling: I suppose if modern day folks are such high point values,
>that must mean that we all have a major enemy waiting for us...I suppose the US
>government qualifies?
No, no, friend citizen. The STATE is your FRIEND. Shame on you for
doubting the STATE. You'll just have to give twice as many cookies
to the nice IRS* man, now won't you? Can you say "I'm sorry, I didn't
mean to say nasties about the STATE"? Good. I knew you could.
* IRS = the nice tax people, for those of you who cough up your dough
to some other equally nice STATE.
>mlk
Dustin Lee Laurence
[Ultra-realistic example omitted]
>You are absolutely correct Patrick, games that use dice do not allow any
>creativity or role-playing and no game can possibly compare to Amber. Those
>poor slobs who are forced to roll dice are just pathetic. Let's convert the
>entire net together, shall we?
Yes, YOU TOO can join the hordes of humorless frp'ers! No, NO MONEY
IS REQUIRED. Just write a short note, taking the previous post seriously.
Be sure to write at least a page refuting it, though.
Hurry! Many are even now at their keyboards, composing their entries.
DON'T BE LEFT OUT!
Joseph E Poplawski
>
>Now, ofr my $.02 about the worst RPGs (donning flameproof garments)
>
>Any Paladium or Fasa game. Now in defense of Paladium, the only games
>I have seen are Robotech and Heroes Unlimited. But I was not impressed.
>And FASAs systems just seem too screwed up. I like Shadowrun's concept
>and world, but not the system.
Well, for all of you that have been blasting FASA's games, you should really
take a look at the Mechwarrior Second Edition/Battletech Universe in greater
detail. Out of all the role playing games I have played in the last 12 years,
I have yet to find one that was so rich in background and history. Granted
the idea is not very realistic, and probably not practical (A friend of mine,
Rob Link, beat one of our friends in a game using only armored vehicles against
our friends Mechs with each one working from a fixed amount of $$) but it is
extremely rich in background material. The novels give an additional feel for
the game that is IMHO unmatched by any other game system.
By the way, if you haven't check out the Second Edition of MechWarrior, I
would definately recommend it. It is an exponential improvement over the
original one, and our group has been playing it avidly since its arrival,
discarding our previous hodgepodge mix of rules to roleplay the Battletech
Universe.
-Jo
--
Joseph E Poplawski (Jo), President Fantasci Incorporated / Fantasci Gaming
Addr: 222 Lemon Lane, Edgewater Park, NJ 08010-2703 Phone: +1 609 835-2846
UUCP: decwrl!twwells!fantasci!xanth | telesci!fantasci!xanth | xanth@fantasci
--
Joseph E Poplawski (Jo), President Fantasci Incorporated / Fantasci Gaming
Addr: 222 Lemon Lane, Edgewater Park, NJ 08010-2703 Phone: +1 609 835-2846
UUCP: decwrl!twwells!fantasci!xanth | telesci!fantasci!xanth | xanth@fantasci
Ronald Kunenborg
>Lately, I've heard people put down just about every game I've ever
>heard of. Makes me wonder if there are any good games out there. So
>now it's time to turn it around:
>
>WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE GAME?
>
>I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'd just be interested in
>checking out any games I'm not familiar with that lots of people think
>is really good. So what are your recommendations?
>
>Steve
>
Why don't you try Ars Magica ? It's a good system (being improved while
we type) and has one of the best magic systems I've seen yet.
The setting is medieval Europe, where you play a mage, companion or "grog" in
a covenant of mages. God exists, so does Lucifer. Faeries are included too.
There is a heavy emphasis on roleplaying. At the moment it's published by
White Wolf. It is made by the same people who made Vampire, so that might give
a clue as to what you can expect w.r.t. quality...
--
Ronald Kunenborg, Ina Boudier-Bakkerlaan 89-3, 3582 XD Utrecht, The Netherlands
"If we must die, let it not be like hogs...
Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
Ketil Malde
"My game is better than yours" has now been turned to:
"Your game is worse than mine". And the only thing everybody
seems to agree on is that "at least my game is better than AD&D"
Anyway, it's discussions like this that us netpeaople thrive on, so
keep tham fingers off that KILL-file!
Oh, yes, my candidate for the Ultimately Bad Game?
Sorry, I don't feel I know enough of them to state that one is
better than another. But they all sure have shortcomings!
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ketil Malde In real life: s0...@brems.ii.uib.no |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+