AD&D: How to use a Wish????
Tor Christian Ulvang
In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
It would be interesting to hear what other people let their PC's
wish for.
Thanks from: Tor
--
Tor Christian Ulvang
to...@solan.unit.no
Norwegian institute of Technology
Chris Seabrook
>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
As a DM I use the general rule that a wish cannot generate more wishes
or spells of equivalent power. This stops a dangerous upward spiral.
As toi what I let charcters wish for, well they can wish for anything
they like and I'll only rule on hwat happens after they make the wish. I've
actually got my players quite careful in discussing what to wish for as I
assume that the characters were doing the speaking during the discussion and
some careless phrasing may set the spell off during the discussion.
For ability scores I use the rule (from ADnD 1ED DMG I think) that a
single wish can raise a stat by 1 full point up to 16 and by 1/10 of a point
from there on up.
The best use of a wish I've seen was when one of the MU's cast
fireball into a room which turned out to be smaller than he figured. He got
caught in the blast, killed and a lot of hos magic blew up as well. The party
used a wish scroll to wish that 'the room is and always has been 10% larger'
--
Chris Seabrook c...@ossi.com +1 510 652 6200 x118
Per saltire gules and Or, a sun counterchanged.
Ron
I had a luck blade once (+1 sword with d4+1 wishes). The DM
would never have let me have it (I was 4th level) but neither
he nor I read the description (how good can a +1 sword be, hmm?)
since we didn't have the book at the time (sort of inexperienced).
Anyway, when we did read the book I said, "I wish I had a +5 Holy
Avenger."
The DM gave it to me. I forgot I was playing an assassin (NE) at
the time ...
- Ron
David P. Murphy
>It would be interesting to hear what other people let their PC's wish for.
>
the only intelligent wish our group ever made was for a Wand of Raise Dead.
anyone can point it at a recent corpse and <poof> the PC bounces back up.
of course, the recharge is five-to-one, but still it is an immensely
valuable item for the entire group.
>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
as if my DM would ever let us use a wish to get more wishes. HA!!
ok
dpm
--
mur...@npri6.npri.com 602 Cameron St. Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 683-9090
When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before.
--- Hurree Babu, "Kim"
WildCard !!
>to...@solan.unit.no (Tor Christian Ulvang) writes:
>
>>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
>>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
>>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
>>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
>
> As a DM I use the general rule that a wish cannot generate more wishes
>or spells of equivalent power. This stops a dangerous upward spiral.
> As toi what I let charcters wish for, well they can wish for anything
>they like and I'll only rule on hwat happens after they make the wish.
The only restriction I put on wishes is: the better the wish, the worse the
consequeces.
I take that back: I also say "Whatever you say in the next 3 minutes is what
you character says..."
People who wish for "the strength of a giant" get the strength but now become
so bulged that their Dex is lowered significantly, their armor doesn't fit
anymore, they have to eat continually to keep the bulk up, etc...
I was playing Teenagers From Outer Space and (after getting into alot of
trouble) the teenagers were granted a wish by *the* Fairy Godmother (or
Hairy Godfather, they used the sex-change gun...) but it was supposed to
backfire in some way.
One player wanted his character to have an increased "Luck" stat. He phrased it
like "I want to be so lucky...soooo lucky, to have a huge amount of fortunate
things happen to me, and things like that."
So of course I increased his Luck stat...... and gave a (dead )rabbit's foot...
on each limb....
instead of hands/feet. But she was *really* lucky! :D
[tee hee... I loved that... I guess you had to be there...]
- WildCard !!
+ "Touch my deck and I ventilate your thorax..." +
| - WildCard !! |
| [ "Plex Personalities" Shadowland BBS ] |
+ wild...@redrock.nevada.edu +
Kjetil Granlien
In article <1992May6.0...@nevada.edu>, wild...@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!) writes:
> [lots deleted]
> The only restriction I put on wishes is: the better the wish, the worse the
> consequeces.
I agree on that. Nothing comes free in this world. Not even the result from a
wish-spell.
One of my players wished his PC to have a better strength. Now, this PC was
fairly strong from the start so he had to fight for this.
He was teleported to a small room with a deadly monster guarding a Manual of
..something.. He fought this monster. Almost got killed, got the manaul and
was teleported back. Of course this makes the wish spell less atractive.
But what the hell..
Another solution is to just give him the manual. Thenm he have to spend a
large amount of time to read and exercise.
Another character may wish for a +5 Holy Avenger or something similar.
The same goes for this dude.. Teleport to another place.. or given a map of a
small dungeon not too far away from their present location.
The exception I use for this rule is when somebody has died a horrible death
like falling into a vulcano or something else which makes a wish the only way
back to life. If another PC decides to bring the first PC back, this happens
in the form of one of the cleric spell with this effect. That is resurrection
or raise dead or Reincarnation. Then the dead PC is brought back according to
one of these spells. Chosen randomly or by reason.
The results from these rules is that a character is not all to happy to use a
wish spell. Anything may happen, and he may die in getting what he wished for.
And if they use a wish, they try not to make it too much a demanding one.
Kjetil Granlien
---
"Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves
In labyrinth of coral caves
The echoes of a distant time comes willowing across the sand.."
PinkFloyd, Echoes
---
Laura L Perkinson
>
>In article <1992May6.0...@nevada.edu>, wild...@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!) writes:
>> [lots deleted]
>> The only restriction I put on wishes is: the better the wish, the worse the
>> consequeces.
>> [more deleted]
Gotta disagree with you on that, as with others who've posted about
evil side-effects they've given to people using wishes.
Saying stuff like "You wish for high strength? OK, but now your
muscles are so big your dex is cut in half." just fosters a players vs. the
DM atmosphere. And who needs that?
All that needs be done is set some reasonable limits, and let them
be known. Such as, a wish could:
1)duplicate the affects of other spells (says so in the PH; Limited
Wish can duplicate the effects of spells 7th level + under)
2)Resurrect the dead (again, several spells say only a wish can
reverse the effects)
3)Raise stats by no more than 2 points (2 in one stat, or 1 apiece
in two stats). Unless one's returning stats to their original place. (ie,
a psionicist Mindwipes you, taking intelligence, wisdom + level down by 5;
a wish should fix all that, no sweat)
4)Create a limited amount of stuff. A huge castle, fully equipped
with 1 billion gp in the treasury? Probably not
5)Create magic items? Probably; but no artifacts/relics, and really
bitchin' stuff (sphere of annihilation etc) probably has charges. Turning
a normal sword to a sword +4 ought to be doable
6)Other stuff, the DM should just decide if it's too powerful, and
nix if appropriate. Only when players start saying things like "I wish
[another character] will be my loyal flunky for life who will give me
anything + defend me unto death" should the DM start gooping them.
Wishes should be REALLY RARE. (How often do you see 9th level
spells?) If they get them via an item or granted by a power, it should only
be after completing some big-ass quest/adventure. And if they completed it,
let them reap some rewards. If you can't stand to see the players doing cool
things for their characters, you shouldn't be GM'ing. Period.
Praxis
Matthew Rupert
>
>>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
>>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
>>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
>>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
above 18)...
Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
many Things exists...
10 more wishes? Does your DM know that wishes put strain on the
invoker of said wish(i.e., the god/deity in control of that sphere)?
Perhaps the DM does not understand that wishes must be carefully phrased
in order for them to work...
Monty Haul!! Everyone, jump in!!!
Tor Christian Ulvang
> >to...@solan.unit.no (Tor Christian Ulvang) writes:
> >
> >>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
> >>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
> >>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
> >>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
>
> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
> an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
> a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
> above 18)...
What we got was an upgraded version of the wish spell worth 15000 Xp
compared to 10000 Xp normally, or so the DM said, and used this wish to
simulate a spell called "raise abillity scores with 1d4", that we had heard of.
(The DM has created this world himself, and so it includes things from
Alien, Dune, Hellcornia Winter/Spring/summer(?), and probably some
others as well...... :-) )
> Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
> many Things exists...
Well, what happened was that we had one wish each, and then one fighter
wished for a Deck of many Things, and got some nice cards like raise primary
ability with 2, so our cleric/mage wanted to try the same thing and also
wished for a Deck of many Things, but after the fighter was finished with
his Deck, so it may have been the same Deck. (The two Deck's looked
alike anyhow. :-) )
> 10 more wishes? Does your DM know that wishes put strain on the
> invoker of said wish(i.e., the god/deity in control of that sphere)?
> Perhaps the DM does not understand that wishes must be carefully phrased
> in order for them to work...
>
> Monty Haul!! Everyone, jump in!!!
It was the cleric/mage who got lucky and got 10 more wishes, they came
as rings of wishes , but WHERE they came from we don`t know, but our DM told us
that wishing for something really nice like vorpal weapons will just teleport
an already excisting weapon to the wisher, and make the previous owner
come after you, so we'll have to wait and see ...........
As for carefully phrasing wishes, we learned that when I wished for a scroll
we had seen in a dungeon to be transporten to us, and forgot to specify
that ONLY the scroll should come, what we got was a rather (very) large
mummy chest (sacrofag???), we had to use one of the other wishes to get the
scroll out of the chest, without disturbing whoevery rested there.....
(The DM told us later that it contained a 40 level mummy priest,
or some such thing, luckily we teleported the chest unopened into a vulcan. :))
Anyhow the scroll converted CHAR to INT, so now we have a terrible intelligent
and ugly mage.
Peter Couvares
>In article <1992May6.1...@ifi.uio.no> kjet...@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Granlien) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992May6.0...@nevada.edu>, wild...@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!) writes:
>>> [lots deleted]
>>> The only restriction I put on wishes is: the better the wish, the worse the
>>> consequeces.
>>> [more deleted]
>
> Gotta disagree with you on that, as with others who've posted about
>evil side-effects they've given to people using wishes.
> Saying stuff like "You wish for high strength? OK, but now your
>muscles are so big your dex is cut in half." just fosters a players vs. the
>DM atmosphere. And who needs that?
I completely agree...if the wish is reasonable, let them have it...if
it's not, take their exact words, write them down, and figure out some way to
twist them so that what they asked for happens, but not the way they wanted at
all. The players are not dumb (uh oh, gonna get flamed for this one :) -- they
quickly figure out not to get carried away with wishes, _and_ to word them
very, very, very carefully...my players usuaully spend about 10 minutes
preparing for what they're going to tell me.
-Peter Couvares
pfco...@amhux1.amherst.edu
August Paul Yang
is how the character phrases the question. The power that be aren't very
forgiving about people who believe in the "spirit" of a deal rather than
the "word." This is especially important to keep in mind when using
Geniekind to grant wishes.
*****************************************************************************
Victor Strange: "You should have cut my head off, doused it in holy water,
and filled my mouth with garlic!"
Steven Strange: "Considering the kind of breath vampires have I could have
skipped the garlic."
-Doctor Strange
*****************************************************************************
A wntr...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu production. All worhsips, prasies, and money
gifts should be sent to the above address. Flames should be sent elsewhere.
*****************************************************************************
Lord Goodgulf the Ma-a-a-agical Wizard
> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>above 18)...
> Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
>many Things exists...
even as we speak, the Universe is starting to colapse! (Of course, in a
multiverse, do we care?) Take back these wishes and wish for things that
are allowed! The fate of the Universe is your hands.
Lord Goodgulf the Minorly Sarcastic Wizard
> Monty Haul!! Everyone, jump in!!!
Just out of curiosity, what is everybody's problem with Monty Haul
campaigns? I mean, it's not as if there were rules saying that if the
average stat is above 16 and each party member has the equivalent of over
50% of his/her experience in magic items, no real role-playing is allowed.
And if there were, you could ignore it anyway.
--
Lynn Richard Akers There are three basic philosophies of life:
1) If life hands you a lemon, complain until it hands you chocolate ice cream. 2) If life hands you a lemon, hand it back.
3) If neither of the above work, hope it also hands you some sugar and a juicer with which to make lemonade.
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt9405b Internet: gt9...@prism.gatech.edu
138378
[...]
>It would be interesting to hear what other people let their PC's
>wish for.
>
Some time ago, the gnome illusionist/thief in the party wished for a familiar.
A QUASIT familiar... Yes, he wanted to be chaotic evil. It was most unsettling
and I do not recommend it.
Maarten Wiltink
wilt...@dutiws.tudelft.nl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'At the far end you see a wooden panel with space left on both sides. A nail
is visible, sharp end sticking out into the room.'
'Walk through the room and look on the other side of the wall.'
'There's a note hanging on the nail. It says 'Beware of the spectre'. You feel
a hand on your shoulder.'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John S. Novak III
I don't understand something.
The majority of the postings in this thread are about how GMs can
get really sneaky about how they grant their wishes. Either the
GM is supposed to treat the wish incredibly literally (and I've
yet to see any wish phrasing that couldn't be twisted a little
bit...) or only give benefits in exchange for penalties, and so
forth.
Now, while I can understand the desire to keep players from
abusing the Sanctity of the Wish, as it were, I don't understand
why these types of GMs keep handing out wishes?
Why hand out a wish that you know is going to be abused?
Why hand out a wish if its just an exercize in frustrating the
players?
--
"Hey invisible mage! See anything up ahead in the corridor!?"
-- Darrin von Strauss
John S. Novak, III dark...@camelot.bradley.edu
Robert Crawford
>Why hand out a wish that you know is going to be abused?
>Why hand out a wish if its just an exercize in frustrating the
>players?
If I remember all the games I've been in, there has only been
one (1) item in any of them that had Wishes. That was in a TFT game,
years ago, and we had been hired to _recover_ the damned thing.
IMHO, this was a wonderful use of Wish items -- plot hooks.
PCs should _never_ be allowed to have a wish, and NPCs should use them
for _BIG_ things. Our employer was going to use it to win a war...
Of course, there are exceptions. There may be times when a
Wish can be used to undo something that went horribly wrong (from the
GM's perspective). Then the players should be allowed to use one. That
may mean they have to go on a long journey to get one, but that's what
makes an adventure.
If the players are the type to abuse wishes, then re-educate
them. Forcefully, if need be. (What or who grants wishes? What if the
creator of the item had intended it to be used for some grand scheme,
not just to make some slob rich and/or powerful?)
If the GM is the type to intentionally try to trap players,
then I'd recommend getting another GM...
--
"How about a dinner, movie, and a drag by the hair?"
--- Crow
Robert Crawford be...@camelot.bradley.edu
Andrew AJ Foxx
(Lord Goodgulf the Ma-a-a-agical Wizard) writes:
|> In article <Y6Z...@ais.org> ho...@ais.org (Matthew Rupert)
|> writes:
|> > Monty Haul!! Everyone, jump in!!!
|>
|> Just out of curiosity, what is everybody's problem with
|> Monty Haul campaigns? I mean, it's not as if there were rules
|> saying that if the average stat is above 16 and each party
|> member has the equivalent of over 50% of his/her experience in
|> magic items, no real role-playing is allowed. And if there were,
|> you could ignore it anyway.
|>
|> --
|> Lynn Richard Akers There are three basic philosophies of life:
Well, I think its the commendable fact that many people are able
to admit publicly that they are unable to cope with power. They
realize that they would become nothing but two-dimensional
caracitures of greed and want, yes power-trippers, should they
be placed in such conditions. So they limit themselves to
roleplay situations where they can best operate.
I would like to take a moment to pause and recognize the bravery
and fortitude of these roleplay-challenged people :-).
--
] Andrew "AJ" Foxx
] fo...@foxxjac.b17a.ingr.com
Gregory R Block
: Why hand out a wish if its just an exercize in frustrating the
: players?
One of my favorite DM's is a good friend of mine, Craig Dawson. Now,
he's got lots and lots of house rules.
One of them governs wishes and limited wishes.
Basically, there's no aging involved with wishes. None. They're
weakening, and for about a turn, you can't cast a spell. And you can
get ANYTHING YOU ASK FOR.
But you'd better be damned careful. He takes every word, analyzes it,
and if you're not careful, you're screwed big time. He'll twist and
turn your limited wishes and wishes against you, and won't think
twice...
And they're fun. They're dangerous, and that's how I feel they were
meant to be. They're dangerous, and seldom used because of it. Only
in desperate situations does one use a limited-wish or a wish.
BTW, I like the rule, and it seems to enhance our games... Of course,
there are other house rules, but that's one of the most interesting to
toy with.
One can create magical items with wishes and limited wishes too, but
you'd better be careful how you word it, or you'll get big quirks.
Greg
--
"Have you come here to play Jesus with the lepers in your head?" -U2, ONE
"I watched those children jump in the tall grass, leap the sprinkler..." REM
"Sushi is bad... READ MY LUNCH!!! A thousand bits of fish..." -George Bush
gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block
Peter Couvares
>
>I don't understand something.
>
>The majority of the postings in this thread are about how GMs can
>get really sneaky about how they grant their wishes. Either the
>GM is supposed to treat the wish incredibly literally (and I've
>yet to see any wish phrasing that couldn't be twisted a little
>bit...) or only give benefits in exchange for penalties, and so
>forth.
>
>Now, while I can understand the desire to keep players from
>abusing the Sanctity of the Wish, as it were, I don't understand
>why these types of GMs keep handing out wishes?
>
>Why hand out a wish that you know is going to be abused?
>Why hand out a wish if its just an exercize in frustrating the
>players?
As I said in my last post, my policy for wishing is that, _if the
wish is reasonable_ allow it, and if not then get sneaky. Word-twisting and
penalties are only a way to discourage and counter-balance players who wish
for +234 Super-Holy-Kills-Everything-Avengers.
-Peter Couvares
pfco...@amhux1.amherst.edu
Peter Goedhart.TI-tel-3925
Date: 11 May 92 13:11:27 GMT
Message-ID: <aiko.705589887@dutirt2>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: AD&D: How to use a Wish????
Distribution: local
References: <1992May5.1...@ugle.unit.no>
The only time I ever used a wish (and I'm playing for quite a while now)
was to get rid of a really nasty situation.
The campaign we play in is rather high-level and not exactly "standard"
For example my companion was a 18th lvl mage/8th lvl assasin. I myself
was just a "simple" 15th lvl Conjurer.
The situatation was like this:
Recently we had finished off a rather impressive black dragon (age class 12
great wyrm, max Hp = 160 Hp.) It took some effort, but we managed.
Later on, we discovered that we had killed one of Tiamat's (god of evil
dragons for thos who don't know) personal guards (one of the five)
Naturally Tiamat was pissed, his image ruined by two mere mortals. So he
needed to reestablish his superiority. He did so, by sending two of his
other personal guards at us, a class 12 Blue dragon and a class 12 green dragon
both max Hp and both well equiped with magic items. In this situation,
I used a wish (bought a scroll) to change the memories of the battle with
the black dragon. All memories concerning that battle would have someone not
important associated to my person, so I wasn't worth to be hunted.
The phrasing of that wish took me about 2 hours think work (done before I
casted the wish). If the Dm really wanted to screw me he could possibly even
with that careful phrasing, misinterpret it. Fortunately for me, the Dm thought
he'd scared me enough and didn't know exactly what to do with the two guards.
Afterwards he told me that, to be honest he was glad I used the wish to
get rid of the whole problem.
My companion got rid of it by gaining the protection of the Ruby dragon (god
of all neutral dragons) because my companion was a protector of neutral dragons
--
The Golden Phoenix.
s9877751
*******
I've run several AD&D campaigns over the past few years, and only once have
I allowed the characters to gain access to the use of a wish. In their case,
the wish was used to bring a dead companion back to life, so I saw nothing
wrong with it. Gaining access to this wish involved a difficult quest that
had many dangers as well as rewards. So, on the whole wishes tend to disrupt
gameplay, unless your PCs are GOOD role-players, and not just "power-players".
Further more, even high level spellcasters should not have access to a wish
spell, at least not easy access. Such a spell should be hidden in an ancient
tome of magic, in a lost tomb, or on some "unique" scroll, and its acquisition
should require a special quest, or adventure.
-Matt
SRONCE, FRANK T
mostly too low level for the party to be casting them. Just about the only
wishes available were the ones offered by Hutijjin (sp?) to the thief if he
would break the Master Pentagram and let Hell loose into the world...
Fortunately, he refused.
HOWEVER, my personal preference in wishes is that they should always provide
what you wished for in the easiest possible manner (with the exception of
wishes granted by malign creatures, who take a great deal of pleasure in
deliberately misinterpreting them). A wish should never have any direct,
obvious effect. AFTER you wish for so-and-so to return to life, you discover
that there was a scroll of resurrection in the next room. Did the DM add it
to fulfill your Wish, or was it in the module already? If it's executed well,
the players should never be sure.
This also makes really hideous wishes very dangerous... if you wished for a
+5 Vorpal Holy Avenger Defender to appear in your hand (and it didn't eat your
brain because of its ridiculous ego), then you'd better believe that somewhere
out there is a Paladin-Warrior King who's favorite blade was just randomly
teleported out of his hand by a Lich, and he's a-gonna come looking for it.
In short, unless granted by magical beasties like demons/gods, wishes should
have only 1 power- the ability to warp probability until what you wished for
happens...
Kiz
Andrew AJ Foxx
Oh great, the Invisible Guidelines of Wishiness. Is a +4 sword
to much at 2nd level but not at 12th? Then it's the Invisible
Guidelines of Wish-Washiness.
Problems with WISHES exist over what they are. I haven't seen
any divine wishes limited because "it's only a WISH." I have
also been in campaigns where a limited wish spell was more
useful than a wish spell because the DM didn't sit around
thinking how to warp it. I saw one character wish for a vorpal
sword, and the DM had it appear over his head ("didn't specify
where"). One high dice roll later and the party had a vorpal
sword and a headless party member. Needless to say, this didn't
build a spirit of cooperation with the DM.
Every DM should have an idea of how open ended every wish is. If
all wishes were all powerful, some Paladin would have wished
away all evil by now. Is it granted by the spirit of the
request, the literal words, the character being teleported
somewhere where the request can be granted,...? If so, the DM
should have noted whether this is a wish-spirit, wish-literal,
wish-teleport, wish-summon, wish-divine,...
If a wish is too powerful for your campaign then it YOU, not the
wish who has a problem. You're the one whose supposed to adapt
stuff; make it a fat-free wish substitute or whatever, but
don't crush the party's back because they step over invisible
guidelines. Let them know or learn that some wishes are just
incapable of some things. If the request is too much, let the
wish wait for something within its scope. The character can
lower his sights and simultaneously learn something about limits.
With this method, the party can have a ring of multiple wishes
and not have to agonize over the use of them. Get serious,
minor wishes can accomplish lots of things and are very fun
(gasp! gaming..fun, what's the connection?) to have in a party.
The DM just ought to know what can be accomplished with that
ring's wishes. The wish they get for performing a service for
Baba Yaga may be something totally different.
To agree with an earlier post, the DM shouldn't make wishes into
some confrontation with the players. Let them learn by mistakes
how powerful different types of wishes are. Don't get malicious
unless you're ready to receive the backlash. Such as:
With the DM mentioned way above, the entire party of
characters all went into seclusion to study, train, etc.,
but ALL of them began researching wishes. Despite ANY other
occurrences, created by the DM, the characters continued
the research. At the end, they even used an incredibly
specific wish to validate and complete their research.
With that treatise that the DM was forced to create, the
characters used the final two wishes from the ring they had
and got what they wanted; they totally lynchpined the DM to
the wall with his own words. The party found one more wish
and got exactly what they wanted with it (turned time back
one hour in order to defeat a great villain that had killed
over half the party). After that, there were NO wishes in
the campaign again.
The party was never abusive, but the DM was. He couldn't
be anymore, so no more wishes. Let's just say it wasn't
a great recommendation on the maturity of someone about
to receive a college degree.
Mike Civita
>
>The majority of the postings in this thread are about how GMs can
>get really sneaky about how they grant their wishes. Either the
>GM is supposed to treat the wish incredibly literally (and I've
>yet to see any wish phrasing that couldn't be twisted a little
>bit...) or only give benefits in exchange for penalties, and so
>forth.
It's not exactly like that. A wish is a direct action taken by
a very powerful being, whether a god or a powerful MU. But wishes
are not ALL powerful, and as a result, a player who attempts to
extract too much from a wish will warp the magic, often bringing on
unanticipated results. these are usually reserved for thickheads
who insist on trying the DMs patience with overzealous wishes.
>
>Now, while I can understand the desire to keep players from
>abusing the Sanctity of the Wish, as it were, I don't understand
>why these types of GMs keep handing out wishes?
>
The DM wants to torment the players?;-) A Wish is not an evil
spell by nature, unless it's caster wishes it to be. I give
my players sporting chance when they make a Wish. they phrase
their Wish and I roll a percentile dice. The possibility of
the wish coming true ranges from 5% (I want to fly like a bird
whenever I choose MV:36:MC:A), to 80% (I wish my fallen
comrade, lying dead beside me, was alive). There is also a
backfire range of 3% to 20%, again adjusted for the wish, by
strictly my discrection. As a DM, I like the Wish, it give
a certain flexibility to the PC, how else can they get any innate
abilities other than wishing for them? (You stoic, plodding
munchkin-haters can warm up now). A Wish is never a sure thing,
but it is certainly a good aspect of the game, to be healthily
respedted, but not shunned.
>Why hand out a wish that you know is going to be abused?
>Why hand out a wish if its just an exercize in frustrating the
>players?
>
the answer is, this DM shouldn't. Unless he really wants to screw
the players intentionally, WHICH IS HIS PEROGATIVE. I never do it
gratuitously, but sometimes a plot calls for it.
`
Mike
Douglas Holzworth
twisted and perverted from their original intent (by the sadistic DM). :)
Any DMs care to post how they have twisted PC wishes, or PCs that have had
their wishes twisted in particularly rude ways?
Example #1: PC with an eye put out by an arrow in a previous campaign finds a
"Wish Arch" in an evil temple. "I wish my one eye was just like the
other one." POOF "Who turned out the lights?"
Example #2: <<From a campaign that is still in progress! The PCs are relatively
low levels. They are facing a powerful demon; they have borrowed magics
that keep the demon from snuffing them on the spot, but they have no
apparent "offense" options, either. The demon can see that they have a
special staff that COULD bind it, IF they have discovered how to use it.
It bluffs, calling the contest a draw and offering a wish to reward them
for their impudence. A 3rd-lv Ranger and a Druid respond with something
other than a "No.">> Ranger: "I wish I had increased strength so I could
more readily beat Evil creatures like yourself! POOF! He's an ogre.
Note: Ogres don't get a wide range of ranger abilities. Ogres also
don't fit in armour (painful splitting scene!). Druid: I wish
my people were in a time where they weren't subjected to your ravages.
POOF! The druid disappears. The party still doesn't know where he is --
he and his entire clan have been transported back through time to before
the FIRST demon attack on his clan (he was fighting the SECOND!).
Ah! These are the times for which a DM lives!
-- Doug the DM
Ristonofer
>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>above 18)...
> Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
>many Things exists...
> 10 more wishes? Does your DM know that wishes put strain on the
>invoker of said wish(i.e., the god/deity in control of that sphere)?
>Perhaps the DM does not understand that wishes must be carefully phrased
>in order for them to work...
book, it only takes one wish to go from 13 to 14, but 10 wishes to go from
16 to 17. Of course, you can do it the way you choose. . .
--
Ristonofer
men...@galt.osd.mil
"Great spirits have ever encountered opposition from mediocre minds."
A. Einstein
Mike Civita
>> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>>above 18)...
>> Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
>>many Things exists...
>> 10 more wishes? Does your DM know that wishes put strain on the
>>invoker of said wish(i.e., the god/deity in control of that sphere)?
>>Perhaps the DM does not understand that wishes must be carefully phrased
>>in order for them to work...
>
>Not to be a rules lawyer, but if you're going by the way it's phrased in the
>book, it only takes one wish to go from 13 to 14, but 10 wishes to go from
>16 to 17. Of course, you can do it the way you choose. . .
Agreed, HOWEVER, I am DMing a new module that offers each PC a Wish so`
powerful, that it can "only" raise 2 attributes by 2 points EACH, max.
It's in a module, but I like it, Wishes are fun, wishes offer one of the
most creative elements in AD&D for character creation and developement.
Mike
Mr. D.W.F. Liu
I remember when I was just starting playing AD&D, the first time I got a
wish I was totally unimaginative and I asked that my wisdom would be increased by
one point permanently.
Stupidly I didn't realise how it could be interpreted, i.e. my wisdom
score increased by one point and stayed there permanently! Duh!
God, I was sooooo embarassed.
Ho hum!
Seeya.
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ From The Dude called Denby. +
+ In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities +
+ scs...@uk.ac.liverpool.compsci is just one. +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jason Hamari,Sauna
>> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>>above 18)...
Here, you are incorrect. Wishes bring ability scores up a full point for
ability scores of 15 or lower. On scores of 16 or higher, a wish brings
the score up by one-tenth of a point (i.e., 10 wishes per point)
Example:
Oombah has a Strength of 13. If he somehow had 7 wishes, he could bring
his strength as shown:
Wish Strength
------- --------
1 14
2 15
3 16
4 16.1
5 16.2
6 16.3
7 16.4
At this rate, he can have 18 Strength with 16 more wishes.
Once an ability is greater than 20, each wish raises it only one-twentieth
of a point.
You will see this on pp.11-12 of the 2nd Edition DMG.
--
fiz...@lopez.UUCP / Luposlipaphobia: the fear of being pursued by
I'm saving my sanity / timber wolves around a kitchen table while
for future use. / wearing socks on a newly waxed floor.
Torsten Edelmann
writes:
TC> In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first
TC> time (as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to
TC> raise ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...),
Reminds me of an old dragon-joke!
Djinn: "Did you just ask me to raze your ability-scores???"
Dumb adventurer: "Well, yes..."
TC> and to get two "Deck of many things".
Wait a moment...raise more than one abillityscore AND get TWO decks? That's a
lot more than just one wish! Tyr must have drunk one heck of an ale!
TC> It would be interesting to hear what other people let their PC's
TC> wish for.
At the end of "Curse of the Azure Bonds" we got three wishes.
The first we used to wish that never again a sword our Ranger wields would
break (he had a bad habit about this - he broke around six swords in the whole
adventure! 8-)
The second we used to wish for a tatoo not unlike the Bonds with which we
could call each other in cases of emergency (we used it allready! Best wish we
ever formulated! Since then we call if "The bless of the azure bonds")
The third we used to ensure that the called ones could return home after
helping, if they want.
* Origin: You are CE? My, what coincidence...we too! (2:249/22.20)
Torsten Edelmann
CS> As a DM I use the general rule that a wish cannot generate more
CS> wishes or spells of equivalent power. This stops a dangerous upward
CS> spiral.
Why not - let 'em wish for a wish! This will throw 'em into a time-loop and
that means "good bye adventurers!"
Greedy adventures - hit them whenever you can!
CS> the wish. I've actually got my players quite careful in discussing
CS> what to wish for as I assume that the characters were doing the
CS> speaking during the discussion and some careless phrasing may set the
CS> spell off during the discussion.
Hehe..."Well, i wish we would be up to our necks in the biggest
dragonhord we have ever seen!"
* Origin: So we went...leaving a trail of blood behind (2:249/22.20)
Torsten Edelmann
LL> they completed it, let them reap some rewards. If you can't stand to
LL> see the players doing cool things for their characters, you shouldn't
LL> be GM'ing. Period. Praxis
Cool things?
I just don't like greedy players! They did something great, they get something
great! But they just shouldn't abuse it! I like it if they are asking
intelligently for something that IS usefull to them but doesn't KAWUUM the
complete campaign ("Well, i wish that every monster that's stronger than the
weakest of us dies instantly!") They can ask for a good sword (if anyone asks
for a "plus 4-sword" he can say goodbye to any XP for good roleplaying), but
asking for a holy avanger would be pointless, since these are only granted by
gods.
If you don't want Munchkins for players, don't train them to be!
* Origin: Kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out! (2:249/22.20)
Steve Stelter
>In <11MAY199...@deimos.ucc.umass.edu> s987...@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (s9877751) writes:
>>> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>>>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>>>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>>>above 18)...
>Here, you are incorrect. Wishes bring ability scores up a full point for
>ability scores of 15 or lower. On scores of 16 or higher, a wish brings
>the score up by one-tenth of a point (i.e., 10 wishes per point)
Yes, I've seen this rule too. And isn't it just the DUMBEST rule you ever
saw? I mean, what's the point? To preserve game balance? With *wishes*?
Wishes and game balance don't mix in the first place--it's ridiculous to
have a rule that makes it really hard to improve your abilites via wishing,
even though it's perfectly okay to wish for the complete destruction of the
universe. (I know that no GM would allow a wish to wipe out the universe
in acutal practice, but it's theoretically possible according to the rules.)
Besides, this rule has so many loopholes. Okay, so it'll take 10 wishes to
kick my Strength up from a 15 to a 16. So intead I'll:
1. Wish for a Manual That Kicks Your Strength Up By One Point When You
Read It. One wish.
2. Wish for Gauntlets of Ogre Power. One wish.
3. Wish that the earth's gravity was reduced a bit, so you would *seem*
stronger.
4. Don't actually wish for higher strength, just wish for a permanent
enchantment that improves your carrying capacity, bar-bending and
door-opening abilities, and HTH damage.
5. Wish for an Ioun Stone that Kicks Your Strength Up By One Point.
Or my favorite:
6. Wish that the "10 wishes per ability point over 15" didn't exist.
--Steve Stelter
sjs2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Robert E. Payne
>>
>>>In my group we recently got access to Wish spells for the first time
>>>(as a reward from the God Tyr), and ended up using them to raise
>>>ability-scores (STR, INT CON ...), and to get two "Deck of many things".
>>>(Real fun those cards..., ended up with 10 more wishes....... :-))
>
> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>above 18)...
I find this rule absolutely abhorrent. Why? You who puts down monty-haulism,
if you are so into roleplaying, tell me and a few others who are, I am sure,
interested in your rationale: Why is it harder to raise a strength from a
17 to an 18 than it is to raise a 12 to a 13. Yes, the 17 to an 18 makes a
more powerful character than a 12 to a 13 but . . . So what? You can't play
a more powerful character without making the game Monty Haul based?
> Even odder, how it says in the DMG that only *one* Deck of
>many Things exists...
> 10 more wishes? Does your DM know that wishes put strain on the
>invoker of said wish(i.e., the god/deity in control of that sphere)?
>Perhaps the DM does not understand that wishes must be carefully phrased
>in order for them to work...
>
> Monty Haul!! Everyone, jump in!!!
I find it unbelievable the amount of envy that some people have because their
GM's won't allow them one stinkin' +3 sword. :)
I do have a problem with people who jump down the throats of others for the
simple fact that maybe someone made a mistake while they were roleplaying.
Not everyone can be the rules lawyer that you are. . .And not everyone would
want to play with that type of person.
Mike Civita
YEAH! ENVY that's the operative term here, thanks for hitting me on the
head with it. I don't play an extremely magic rich campaign, but some of
you folks out there make me feel like each encounter has 3 doors behind
it. I statred out playing in Monty campiagns, (didn't we all), but now
I play (when I play) under a really tough DM, no gold, not much magic,
and you know something? Call me shallow, but I don't enjoy it as much.
Live and let live. I think a serious vein of snobbism is developing
in this group, when a guy with a 10th level fighter with < 20 hit points
above average gets roasted for a week because he is one of the Dread
Monty Players!!
Mike
Allan Longley
>>
>> ...Odd, considering how it takes a certain # of wishes to raise
>>an ability score one point(e.g, 14 wishes to raise a 13 STR to 14, 18 to raise
>>a 17 INT to 18, and so on, though no wishes can raise ability scores
>>above 18)...
>
>Why is it harder to raise a strength from a
>17 to an 18 than it is to raise a 12 to a 13. Yes, the 17 to an 18 makes a
>more powerful character than a 12 to a 13 but . . . So what?
When ability scores rise to 16 and above the human body is being formed into
a RARE and special example of the species. Raising an ability score in the
average to good ranges is not extrordinary and therefore within the
capabilities of a single wish. Just for the record, we use the standard;
3-15 --> can be increased using one wish
16-18 -> a wish adds 10% to ability score.
>You can't play a more powerful character without making the game Monty
>Haul based?
NOT TRUE! Characters can become very powerful through many years of
adventures and activity combined with hard work. A Monty Haul campaign
gives you a +2 sword for killing an orc and the Staff of the Magi for
defeating a troll, the characters are usually 5th level and have most of
the powerful magic items -- this is not a game show, this is life!!! :-)
>I do have a problem with people who jump down the throats of others for the
>simple fact that maybe someone made a mistake while they were roleplaying.
>Not everyone can be the rules lawyer that you are. . .And not everyone would
>want to play with that type of person.
True. Remember, its a game with NO ONE TRUE CORRECT FORM!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan Longley, University of Waterloo, Department of Chemical Engineering
e-mail: alon...@cape.uwaterloo.ca
voice: (519) 885-1211 x3816 It's the long weekend!!!!!
home: (519) 746-5747
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul John Davis
Using the Monty Haul ideas, think on this.
An average[?] world has a population of about 5 million persons.
Of such say 20% study magic. = 1 million persons.
Of these, say 1% get high enough to cast Limited Wish
/Wish/AlterReality a day. = 10 000 persons
A day has approx. 24 hours = 416.67 of those spells an hour
Which gives us 6.9 spells a minute.
Or one every 11 seconds [approx]
Now also consider that a wish alters reality across ALL
dimensions. [they are all connected] [as is INFINITE]
And give each universe/dimension say 10 magic using worlds
That means that in just one universe/dimension reality
alters each SECOND.
Now consider how many people exist in just AD&D and you can
see that these figures are small really.
Paul Davis
Nick Boyle.
--
Paul Davis, [RENEGADE] u903...@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au
Simulation Games Secretary