Spell Point System
Gregory Nishihara
I just started a AD&D campaign and was thinking about using a spell poinTn
system. Has anyone tried using a spell point system? Or is just doing the memorization stuff a lot easier? If anyone has a working system that they think is pretty neat, e-mail it to me! or just post it.
thanx in advance
Operator
that works... meaning one that does not persuade EVERYBODY to
play a mage because of the *nifty* new (unbalanced) power.
Preferably this might strengthen low-lewvel mages but weaken
higher level mages
--
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bru...@kazoo.ssd.loral.com
Black Holes... the /dev/null of the Universe; the opinion of 65534.
Matthew Leslie-Gomez
In my AD&D campaign, I use a spell point system and it works out pretty
well. In my system, the magic user still picks the spells he wants to
memorize according to standard rules. But, he has spell points equal
to one point for every spell level. So he gets one point for every first
level spell, two points for every second level spell, etc.
For example:
Magnus the Wonder Mage can memorize 3 first, 3 second, and 2 third level
spells. He would have 15 spell points; 3 from first, 6 from second and
6 from third. He could then, through the course of the day, cast any
memorized spell any number of times up to his maximum spell points.
In other words, he could cast Magic Missle 15 times or Fireball 5 times,
or any combination of first, second, and third level spells that equal
15 spell points. He MUST still memorize the spells as normal, he just
does not forget them once cast (this always seemed stupid to me) but
he must rememorize them after sleeping, which also regenerates the spell
points.
This keeps the MU in balance while not limiting him as much. He doesn't
have to memorize Magic Missle twice in order to cast it twice. How can
anyone memorize something twice?
Anyway, if anything needs clearing up or if you have any comments just
e-mail me at ml...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com
Happy gaming!
Matt
--
==========================================================================
Disclaimer: Those views expressed | Internet: ml...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com
in this message are my own, and | (Matthew Leslie-Gomez)
not those of my employer. |
==========================================================================
91F9774
Shoulda made a copy before I sent out my reply via email...
I hadda system that worked for me and my game. I'll give the rough outlines
and yall can tell me if you think it would work in general.
A mage had SP of..
SP = IQ points over 9, + level * (Constant M) + con bonus (1 or 2, not 3/4 for
fighter mu's.).
Constant M was typically 3, but I could raise it or lower it for magic rich
or magic poor worlds/planes/dungeon areas.
Spells cost..
SC = Spell level + (Constant D).
Constant D was typically 3, but I could raise it for places where spells were
difficult to cast or if there was a spell that was making spells difficult to
cast. I think I used 4 in one game.
With constant D = 3 the cost for spells is:
level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
cost 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
I kept the maximum level (3rd can cast 2nd, 5th 3rd) but let mages cast spells
over their maximum level for a 50%+10% per level of spell being cast over max
level castable chance of failure. On a failure I rolled 2d6. 7-12 meant it
was an innocuous failure (fireball went off 240 ' over the party's heads),
2-6 meant it was about as damaging a failure as I could make it. (Fly...
can only go up... not down. PC may not catch on until they are quite high).
It was a secret roll that I made behind the screen. One of the funnier failures
was the fantastic damageless fireball. It looks like the real thing, goes where
the mage wanted it to, but secretly it does little or no damage.
I let the mu's use CON as sp if they wish, but HP bonuses or penalties applied
depending on what the CON went to and CON only came back at a rate of 1 per
week. Con < 3 equal death. Lower CON also lowered the system shock and
survival rolls. This rule was used only 3 or 4 times in 18 months and so it
became a somewhat dramatic act to consider.
Spell points came back at such a rate that they would all be back after
24 hours. But each individual SP recovery was in a random range as I liked
for magic to be random. So if the MU had 8 sp, the spells came back every
2.5-3.5 hours. Over large periods of time we did not roll this tho.
Examples:
Mage: IQ:17, level 3, 15 con.
SP = 8 + 9 + 1 = 18sp
1st level spells cost 4sp, 2nd 5sp, 3rd 6sp
Mage can cast 4 1st level or 3 2nd level or 3 3rd (60% failure each)
Spell points come back about every hour and 20 minutes.
Mage: IQ:17, level 9, 12 con
SP = 8 + 27 + 0 = 35sp
1st: 8 or 2nd: 7 or 3rd: 5 or 4th: 5 or 5th: 4 or 6th: 3 (60% failure)
Mage could cast four 1st (18), one 2nd (5) and two 3rd(12) = 35sp in a short
period of time.
Spell points come back about every 43 minutes.
Obvious variations Plus Caveats:
NEVER let the mu's "chain", "pyramid", "lend", "steal" spell points. Another
ref did this and the suckers got up to over 300sp with a "power pyramid."
A new kind of SP storing item could be given out, but you'd need to strictly
limit them, make them hard to get or keep, etc. Don't disbalance the game
much more than a wand of fire balls with 20 charges. Best is to have them
have a certain amount at the beginning (30sp) and not be rechargable.
---
Hope this works.
This system or a system like it worked for me for about 18 months to 3 years.
I don't use it any more but that's mainly because I forgot about it. :)
I used it about 12 years ago last time.
---
Stephen McLeod PS would appreciate any comments on flaws. Didn't turn
The Eternal Student up while I was using it, but that could have been a
"groupthink" problem/benefit.
Adams arthur c.
The best advice for using a spell-point system in AD&D is don't.
If you want a system that works well with psell points, buy GURPS.
AD&D jsut doesn't work with spell points.
--
Friends DON'T let friends vote Republican!
Lick Bush in '92!
Ryk E Spoor
The AD&D spellpoint system we used was similar to one already posted
(spell points = total number of spell levels per day, i.e., 4 3 1 equals
4*1+3*2+1*3 or 13 spell point/levels) and the cost of the spell equalled its
level.
However, we also added the following advantage for mages of really
high (over 16) intelligence (analagous to the spell bonuses that high wisdom
clerics get): for every point of INT over 16, you could memorize an additional
table of spells -- i.e., a 16 int mage having 4 2 1 spells could only memorize
4 first, 2 second, 1 third, but a 17 int mage could have in mind 8 4 2.
He did NOT, repeat, NOT, get extra POWER, but he did have a wider choice of
spells he could cast (assuming he HAD that many in his spellbook).
We also gave ALL pure classes (non-split/multi) additional actions
in their specialty at given levels (6, 13, etc) -- i.e., pure fighters got
extra attacks per round, pure spellcasters got off extra spells, etc. ANY
split-class or multi-class would NEVER gain those benefits.
This made the choice of "to split or not to split" VERY difficult.
On the one hand, particularly at low levels, the advantages were high. At
later levels, there were still strong advantages (THAC0 of a fighter,
spells of a mage) but you would never be as fast in either category as
the people who made this their life's work...
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
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. . : . _*_ . . . ..
. . . . @---====OOOOO====---@~/^\ . . . .
. * . .. ^*^ . . ;;; . . . *
: . . . . . .* . . .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interphase Accomplished.
Sea Wasp docked, Outring Sector 5.
Dave Beck
>Well this is the first time I'm posting so hope it doesn't screw up...
>
>
>I just started a AD&D campaign and was thinking about using a spell poinTn
>system. Has anyone tried using a spell point system? Or is just doing the memorization stuff a lot easier? If anyone has a working system that they think is pretty neat, e-mail it to me! or just post it.
>
>thanx in advance
I've thought about this occasionally. The problem with spell point systems in
AD&D is that many AD&D spells increase in power with the caster's level. If
you enforce putting additional points into the spell for the additional effects
I think it might be workable. IE a 5th level mage casts Magic Missile. If
he wants 1 missile it costs him 1 spell point, 2 missiles -- 3 points, 3 missiles -- 5 points, etc. I've never had the chance to play test this however. Anybody
tried this out?
Dave
la...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
I have always used a slightly different spell point system
than those already mentioned. The spell points themselves
are simply the number of spells a mage is allowed to cast
each day based on the table in the Players Handbook. At third
level a mage can cast 2 first level spells and 1 second level.
However, it is always permissible to use a high level
spell point to cast a lower level spell.
As for memorizing spells, I always find low level mages
to be too inflexible as written, so I allow mages to use
any spell they have in their spellbooks as long as they have
a suitable spell point to cast it.
(Pause to wait for the screams of agony as GM's ponder
the limitless power this gives mages.)
The key to this system is to limit the spells that you
give out. You don't find Power Word Kill on a piece of
paper lying in the middle of the road. I am fairly stingy
about giving out spells in general, and especially those
over third level. Here the limit on the mage's power
is that when he is seventh level he probably only knows 1
fourth level spell (if that). The net effect I have found
is that low level mages are useful and higher level ones
still have limits on their power.
-Lec Luthor
Criminal Genius Extraordinaire
la...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
J. Dixon
points equal the *number* of spells the MU can cast at any one level in
standard AD&D. Spells cost the same number of spell points as the spell level
to cast. We found that using formulas such as first level spells being worth
one spell point, second level spells two points etc. when working out spell
points made MU's too powerful in comparison to what they were in standard AD&D.
We allow spells to be 'powered up' by using extra spell points to make the
spell last longer, have greater range, reduce saves etc. All this is at the
casters option. Spells take longer to cast and there is no increase in a
spells effect with level to counter balance this.
MU's can use any spell they know until they run out of spell points. This has
encouraged MU's to use non-combat spells more often as they don't have to
memorize specific spells. Spell points are recovered at the rate of one per
hour of rest up to eight maximum per day.
This has reduced the power of the MU somewhat but appears to have balanced the
character classes more in our campagian.
JD
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RPG systems. If I ain't played it, it don't exist. ---- CH
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary K. Kuhner
>The problem with spell point systems in
>AD&D is that many AD&D spells increase in power with the caster's level. If
>you enforce putting additional points into the spell for the additional effects
>I think it might be workable.
>Dave
This can be countered by *not* allowing the number of spell points to
increase rapidly with level. Then the increasing effectiveness (per
point) of the spells is one of the main advantages of increasing level,
since you cannot really cast very many more spells. It leads to quite a
different feel than standard AD&D, but it's playable, we find (though
revision of the spell lists improves it a great deal).
The system we used was to give a spellcaster the square root of (level *
spellcasting attribute) plus a bonus for high attribute (like the
current cleric bonus) of about 1-4 points. So a first level mage with
INT 16 would have 4 spell points, plus a bonus of about 2 for high INT,
total of 6. Spells cost one point per spell level. This makes a first
level mage *much* more powerful. However, at 9th level this mage would
have only 14 spell points--a good many, but not overwhelmingly more than
at 1st, so the main reward of being high level is not being able to cast
more spells, but being able to cast them better.
We playtested this pretty extensively from 1st to 9th level, and it
worked well in most cases. Magic Missile and Sleep are too effective
for their cost; giving both spells saving throws helps a lot.
This system was invented by Dan Callahan and friends in Texas; they used
it for very high level play, but we actually prefer it at the low ends.
At very high levels it doesn't give enough spell points; they had to
supplement it with mana-storage devices.
The key to AD&D spell point systems is realizing that a caster can make
do with fewer spells if she doesn't have to decide on them in advance.
Systems which keep the total number of spells the same result in
overpowered mages, because they always have the right spell for any
occasion, with no waste.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Geoff A. Cohen
Some later postings claimed that spell-point based systems are
intrinsically unworkable with AD&D.
The Princecon system, which is essentially an AD&D variant, has
used spell points for something like fifteen years, about
75,000 man-hours of gaming, and there aren't any complaints.
Since the Princecon system was developed for a convention, we
needed a system that was a simple as possible. This eliminates
memorization and spells learned/level and the like. Record
keeping would be too complex, as players can raise level from
fifth to about tenth during the convention.
The base system is easy. The Mage has a number of spell points
equal to his intelligence. These, when used, are recovered per
hour of sleep.
The spell list is pretty similar to AD&D, with some new spells
and the like, but the same concept of levels and spells.
The spell point cost is a simple look-up table between caster
level and spell level, which I can post if there is interest.
That's the basic system. It is astoundingly easy, much more
flexible and interesting for mage players, and is not
unbalancing at all. In fact, I think mages tend to cast
less spells total, since the tendency is to blow one's points
on high-level spells.
Since last year, we have experimented with allowing players
to modify to spells, adding range or damage modifiers and
raising the point cost. This is more controversial, and
this thread may want to consider the advantages of programmable
spells.
After playing both systems extensively, though, I far and away
prefer a spell-point system. It allows the mage to be more
tactical and clever with use of spells, and lets some spells
be cast that otherwise would never see light, for example
Color Change. If you make mages memorize spells, all they
do is whap up a dozen magic machine gun spells, half a dozen
fireballs, and an avalanche or two. -Yawn!-
It's much more fun to see mages cast Pyromancy, or Grand
Patterning, or Color Change, or Cool Object to solve a puzzle
with intelligence rather than with dice.
Geoff Cohen
Princeton University
Remember: It's not too late to register for PrinceCon XVII.
Email for info.
gac...@phoenix.princeton.edu
Operator
--
XRN V 11 lies about me.
bru...@kazoo.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
William Henry Timmins
Convert the Ars Magica magic system, or something like it, to AD&D...
Because I've always HATED the AD&D magic system more than anything.
This would allow mages to make spells in a sensible way, make power
levels make sense, and add a lot of flavor to the system.
However, I don't have a copy of Ars Magica on me. Anyone else care to try?
-Me
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
I used this system when I ran (A)D&D:
A spell user can remember as many spells as in the rules.
He can substitute lower level spells for higher levels, but
not the reverse. A 3rd level MU has 3 "slots", one can hold
a 1st or 2nd level spell, the other 2 can only hold 1st level
spells. MUs and illusionists get "bonus slots" based on
INT, use the cleric bonus spell table under WIS.
A spell user gets as many power points as he has spells in
the rules. A 3rd level MU thus has two 1st level power points
and one 2nd level pp. A power point of level n can be used
to cast a spell of up to level n. Clerics and druids get
bonus power points depending on WIS.
Regaining a power point takes 5 minutes of meditation per
level, this can only be done when fully rested, that is after
a good night's sleep. Replacing a "known" spell with another
takes 2 hours per level. This can be done at any time, but
the time must be continuous. A MU will need a spell book,
a cleric will need to be in a temple of his/her god.
This is all 1st edition AD&D, it should be easy to change
it to 2nd edition.
Klaus O K
Donald W. Treadway
>The spell point cost is a simple look-up table between caster
level and spell level, which I can post if there is interest.
I would be very interested in seeing this table. Please post it
or e-mail it to me if there isn't enough interest on the net.
I would greatly appreciate it.
Later.
--
Don Treadway--metallurgical engineer-in-training-->ManOfAluminum
"Women and cats do as they dammed well please. | d...@po.cwru.edu
Men and dogs had best learn to live with it..." | 1626 E 115 Street
"I'm at the corner of Walk and Don't Walk...." | Cleveland, OH 44106
Bob Meyer
>Dave
When I was gaming with a group back in '78, we had a really neat spell point
system. I've forgotten the actual equations but the way it worked was:
Each spell that was memorized needed a number of spell points to maintain
memorization equal to half it's level. A mage could memorize up to
the max spells for his intelligence for each level. Each spell cost
the number of spell points equal to its level except for magic missle,
fireball, lightening bolt, etc. which cost 1 point for each die or
missle launched. The mage could elect to decrease the power of these
spells by decreasing the number of points used. If a 6th level mage
wanted to cast a 2 die fireball, it only cost 2 points. A six die
fireball cost him 6 points.
Note that there were a number of points that had to be maintained in
order to keep the spells memorized. The fun came in when a mage dipped
into that reserve that he was supposed to maintain. The mage would
start losing spells randomly, starting at the highest level spells. If
the spell lost was the one being cast, the mage would have to roll d20
against his intelligence to see if the spell got off or not. If he
fails the roll, the spell fails (or reverses or goes completely wild at
the DM's discretion/roll). If a mage was disturbed during the casting
of a spell, he had to save under his intelligence in order for the
spell to simply fail. Otherwise, it would do something wild based on
what spell was being cast. We actually had a fireball explode centered
on the mage casting it.
In this system, magic books were extremely heavy, gold and silver bound
tomes that could not be carried effectively by a mage. You could get 2
books on a horse however. A mage could carry a few scrolls around in
case he lost a very important spell but they were in danger of getting
destroyed any time the party got hit with fire or water. If a mage
could read a scroll, and was of a sufficient level, he could memorize
the spell (which erased the scroll) and when he got back home, copy it
into his book. A spell consumed the level of the spell squared pages
in a book that was approximately 2' X 1.5'.
This system worked well because the mage had some control over the
effect of his spells and added an element of chance to the game.
There were occasions when the party was in a desperate situation and
the mage used up every spell point he had. When he recovered his
spell points the next day, he had no spells to cast. The party had to
protect him 'till we got home but did so willingly 'cuz the mage had
saved the party from certain death.
One change that we made was that detect magic and read magic are
innate abilities of a mage but he has to concentrate completely while
performing them and would always be surprized if something happened
while he was concentrating. A mage who was concentrating on detect
magic when a spell went off would be blinded for 2d4 rounds.
This system worked quite well and we didn't have an unbalance in play
between mages and other classes. We didn't have 4 mage, 2 cleric
parties. In fact, we actually had to plan strategy better in order to
protect the mages from missle fire so we didn't get woofed by blown
spells. We had to maintain a lot better party integrity and
communication. It created some real interesting roll playing
situations.
hope this helps...
--
Thinking quickly, the IBM System Jock # Bob Meyer N2DXN
uttered an incantation in EBCDIC and made # Calspan Advanced Tech. Center
the sign of the Terminated Fork. # me...@calspan.com
The UNIX Guru only smiled and trapped him in a recursive SED script.
Tom Tignor
I haven't playtested this system but I've considered it and it
is very simple. It works like this:
The number of spells/level/character exp level given in the PH
shows only the "optimal" balance of spells the character can retain on
hand at once. If a character wants more spells of lower/higher level
and is willing to sacrifice other spells, work it like this - take any
spell the character is willing to give up. The level of that spell-1
is the number of spell levels worth of spells that can fill its place.
Example: Dimerdus the Green, mage of some skill, wants some
extra Magic Missile and Web spells since he anticipates close fighting
in narrow corridors in his future. He is willing to give up a 5th
level spell for more of these lower-level spells. This gives him
(5-1)=4 levels of spells to work with. Since Magic Missile is a 1st
level spell, and Web a 2nd, he could take two Webs, four Magic
Missiles or one Web and two Magic Missiles.
-Tom Tignor tp...@isi.edu
hu...@zodiac.rutgers.edu
>>Well this is the first time I'm posting so hope it doesn't screw up...
>>
>>
>>I just started a AD&D campaign and was thinking about using a spell poinTn
>>system. Has anyone tried using a spell point system? Or is just doing the memorization stuff a lot easier? If anyone has a working system that they think is pretty neat, e-mail it to me! or just post it.
>>
>>thanx in advance
idea of memorizing/praying for spells to a "spell point" system. The mage
or cleric still needs to rest then study/pray but then can cast any spell
that they know up to the normal level allowed.
As an example consider the 2nd level mage Elda. In her spellbook are
the following spells: Sleep, Shield, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Magic Missile
and Flaming Hands. Under the old system she would have to memorize the two
spells she was going to carry (say Magic Missile and Sleep). In the new
system she could cast any two spells in her spell book before needing to
rest and restudy.
This does not make the mage's and cleric's more powerful since they have
the same number of spells that they had before, if any thing it may make the
characters more versatile then before.
One problem with this system is that in a Monty-Haul game where the
characters are finding scrolls and spell-books every time they turn around
will result in mages having a wide range of spells to choose from.
As this is not a "real" spell point system, and if you would like to see
a good spell point system (as well as a rational and complete magic system
check out I.C.E.'s Spell Law).
-George Huber (Rutgers University)
Chris Seabrook
2ED games (or at least tuning it). I wont bother to post the actual system,
it's quite similar to several already posted. What I am more intrested in is
looking at the system from the point of view of what it is trying to achieve.
I have some basic parameters which I am tuning the system to fit
within.
a Low level spellcasters should be more powerful/flexble than
standard PHB Wizards/Priests. High level ones should be less
powerful but more flexible.
The crossover point, ie where a PHB caster and a spell point
caster have equivalent power is around level 5-7.
b Spell memorisation should be limited, ie the whole spellbook
should not be available for use. We limit it to the tables in
the PHB.
c There should be some account taken of high prime requisite,
either in the form of extra points or extra memorisation
ability. I'm considering offering this as a choice to
characters.
d The spell point recovery rate should mean that a low level
caster can recover completely in one nights sleep but a high
level type may need 2-3 days if they have blown all of their
spell points.
e By using all of their points a caster should be able to cast
a small number of their highest level spell or lots of lower
levels. Our numbers tend towards 2-3 of the high level.
In this process I plotted a graph of min/avg/max spell points vs level
for the spell points system and also the PHB spell tables expressed in terms
of spell points. I encourage you to do this if designing a system it was quite
interesting and helped in tuning for play balance. It was also interesting to
note that the new PHB specialist mages with their extra spell at each level
are much more powerful at high levels than normal PHB mages !
--
Chris Seabrook c...@ossi.com +1 510 652 6200 x118
Per saltire gules and Or, a sun counterchanged.
John Paul W. Wysk
The spell point system that is used in the text game Moria is a
decent basic model to work from. The mage is given a certain amount of
MANA points depending upon intelligence and race. Each spell has a particular
MANA point value to it varying with level and complexity (or kill power). The
mage gets MANA back at a given rate per round which is dependent upon level
(and race I think).
This system is nice in the fact that I'll eliminates race to mid-night
that characters generally go through to regain spells or the wait 11:50 to
cast the rest of their spells for the day.
A gripe that I have against the memorization method is that the mage
must be a divinator-extra-ordinare (forgive my spelling but even the spell
checker choked) in order to know which spells he/she will use in the next
twenty-four hour period. If you have spell fixing for the day in your
campaign.
A group I used to play with used a variation of this system with
the following parameters. At first level a d4 was rolled to determine the
characters MANA score. This may to too powerful for your campaign but it
worked pretty well in ours. The MANA score of a character increased by d4
upon advancement to the next level. Spell cost in MANA was done directly
by level (example: a third level spell costs three mana). It did tend to
take the memorizational strategy out of the game but if you find others ways
to implement strategy (as our DM did from time to time) this issue is not a
large one.
A gripe that I have against the memorization method is that the mage
must be a divinator-extra-ordinare (forgive my spelling but even the spell
checker choked) in order to know which spells he/she will use in the next
twenty-four hour period.
That is the input I have to lend. I hope that it proved helpful and
not very redundant. (I am still trying to determine which spell system I
like myself.)
--
! John Wysk ! During the last second of the last day of my life !
! @ Rensselaer ! God and Satan battled for my soul !
! Polytechnitute ! And when it was done one question remained !
! ! Twixt was twain... (source unknown to me) !