Hero Games News
Hero Games
going... stop by the Hero Games site at www.herogames.com and check them out
(along with the new look of the site, if you haven't been there in a while).
Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It looks great...
now with 5th Edition Hero System stats as well as Fuzion stats. Appearing in a
retail store near you any day now... check it out!
-- Steve Peterson, Cybergames.com
David Crowe
: Just wanted to let you all know that Hero Games has new discussion boards
If I have 1st Ed., is there enough new stuff to justify buying it?
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
<Moan> "This episode of 'Buffy' is filled with continuity errors!
But I can't reach my internet newsgroup to *complain*!
Worst punishment ever!"
-Comic store guy in Hell, Simpsons Treehouse of Horror #6.
Bryan J. Maloney
<20010117225519...@ng-bg1.aol.com>:
>Just wanted to let you all know that Hero Games has new discussion
>boards going... stop by the Hero Games site at www.herogames.com and
>check them out (along with the new look of the site, if you haven't been
>there in a while).
>
>Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It looks
I don't give a damn. Too bad you people are adhering to my most
pessimistic "schedule" for the release of Champions 5.
Viktor Haag
> Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It
> looks great... now with 5th Edition Hero System stats as well
> as Fuzion stats. Appearing in a retail store near you any day
> now... check it out!
> -- Steve Peterson, Cybergames.com
Steve, I must sadly report that the length of time you are taking
to get 5th edition HERO out the door has most likely cost you a
gaming group in Southern Ontario.
We were so impressed by Big Eyes, Small Mouth, that it's doubtful
we'll ever return to HERO.
--
Viktor Haag Senior Technical Writer, RIM
Results of today's Quote-O-Matic:
"Death Grumpiness: like puberty, but instead of acne, you die."
James Nicoll
>hero...@aol.com (Hero Games) writes:
>
>> Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It
>> looks great... now with 5th Edition Hero System stats as well
>> as Fuzion stats. Appearing in a retail store near you any day
>> now... check it out!
>> -- Steve Peterson, Cybergames.com
>
>Steve, I must sadly report that the length of time you are taking
>to get 5th edition HERO out the door has most likely cost you a
>gaming group in Southern Ontario.
>
>We were so impressed by Big Eyes, Small Mouth, that it's doubtful
>we'll ever return to HERO.
Sales of BESM to former HERO customers are pretty good,
better than for any product HERO has produced since the release
of the BBB in '89. I'll still probably stock a copy of two of
the 5E Hero, _if_ it ever arrives but I doubt that sales of HERO
will return to the old levels, esp since I can't be bothered to
push it when GOO is far more store-friendly.
"As flexible as HERO, easier to learn and play and -in
print-."
James Nicoll
Peter Meilinger
:>
:>We were so impressed by Big Eyes, Small Mouth, that it's doubtful
:>we'll ever return to HERO.
: Sales of BESM to former HERO customers are pretty good,
: better than for any product HERO has produced since the release
: of the BBB in '89. I'll still probably stock a copy of two of
: the 5E Hero, _if_ it ever arrives but I doubt that sales of HERO
: will return to the old levels, esp since I can't be bothered to
: push it when GOO is far more store-friendly.
: "As flexible as HERO, easier to learn and play and -in
: print-."
Dammit, now I have to go and buy it. These two posts pushed me
over the positive endorsement threshold. Sigh.
Pete
Sidhain
> print-."
>
> James Nicoll
>
In fact it's a wonderful little alternative to Hero, and many ideas I've had for
Hero also work smoothly in BESM (more smoothly in some cases)
Rod Currie
of James' "former" HERO customers who bought it, I must admit I have trouble
seeing it as a replacement for HERO, particularly in the superhero genre. Of
course, for me, the powers system in Hero is the heart and soul of the game
and there is just not the same level of fine control evident in BESM
(although I do like BESM's system better other HERO-like power design
systems). Of course, I have been playing and running Champions since 1983,
so that may have something to do with it. Also, there was something with
Champions that just connected with me from the first time I read the
rules -- it simply felt right to me.
I am curious what you mean when you say GOO (Guardians of Order, who make
BESM, for those who don't know) is far more store-friendly?
Finally, I would argue that BESM is less flexible (at least finer levels of
detail), possibly easier to learn and play (although I certainly never found
HERO particularly hard to learn or play), and in print (as will HERO be
again). Of course, to me, that last one matters very little, although, I
could see how it would be important to someone like yourself who runs a game
store. To players and GMs, why should it matter if a game system is in
print?
And btw, James, should you change your mind about stocking HERO 5e, please
let me know so that I can make plans to buy my copy elsewhere.
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:947c26$mg8$1...@panix6.panix.com...
Sidhain
> course, for me, the powers system in Hero is the heart and soul of the game
> and there is just not the same level of fine control evident in BESM
Actually you do have the same level of control, it's just not number crunching
control.
> Champions that just connected with me from the first time I read the
> rules -- it simply felt right to me.
>
I've trie dfor years to get players nterested in Hero System, mostly they scoff
and we go onto games that have a much less steep learning curve, and PC creation
is consistent point wise or at least consistent for the genre.
> Finally, I would argue that BESM is less flexible (at least finer levels of
> detail),
It is as flexible, anything that can be done in Hero can be done in BESM and
with a lot less time involved unless we are dealing with Power Pools..:) or
Dynamic Sorcery. BESM actually leaves the SFX to being SFX which is a plus to
me, but not to some.
possibly easier to learn and play (although I certainly never found
> HERO particularly hard to learn or play),
It is...I can sit down with a new group and have Pc's for whatever game I'm run
ning in un der an hour for BESM, for Hero....good luck in under three (this is
people who've never played either) and I've been using Hero for a while (but
it's a love/hate relationships in many ways)
> And btw, James, should you change your mind about stocking HERO 5e, please
> let me know so that I can make plans to buy my copy elsewhere.
>
>
>
He said he was going to stock a few copies...just not a lot.
It's probably all he will need too--sadly.
James Nicoll
Hero Games <hero...@aol.com> wrote:
>Just wanted to let you all know that Hero Games has new discussion boards
>going... stop by the Hero Games site at www.herogames.com and check them out
>(along with the new look of the site, if you haven't been there in a while).
Which I did, where I noticed
>Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It looks great...
>now with 5th Edition Hero System stats as well as Fuzion stats. Appearing in a
>retail store near you any day now... check it out!
That the 1/5/01 production schedule claims a Jan 2000 shipdate
for CNM 2E. Missed a typo, I think, which makes me wonder how many more
typos you missed in the text.
James Nicoll
Skytech
> To players and GMs, why should it matter if a game system is in print?
>
My friends and I have been long time Champions players. We've tried many
other SHRPGs, probably close to all, and none ever had the fun, durability
or richness we felt Champions had no matter what the problems. Every other
game felt so flat and we never felt any connection to our creations.
BESM has been sitting in it's corner of the gamestore shelf for a long time.
we've picked it up, read it to see if it could be fun and subsequently
plopped it back unceremoniously. Just another anime game....
I hope to see what the new Hero/Champions looks like soon. I hope it's not
another Fuzion because oversimplification is as bad or worst. We tried, we
really did but somehow we always drifted back to the real game.
--
Skytech aka The Nightbeast
Matt Korth
hero...@aol.com says...
> Oh, and Champions: New Millennium 2nd Edition has shipped! It looks great...
> now with 5th Edition Hero System stats as well as Fuzion stats. Appearing in a
> retail store near you any day now... check it out!
Speaking only for myself, I can only say that it's about bloody time,
Steve. I do believe this is the first C:NM supplement to have Hero
System stats of any version (I'm sure someone'll speak up if I'm wrong on
that score), while Hero System supplements have been *required*[1] to
have Fuzion stats for quite some time.
--M
[1] Yes, required. My wife's manuscript for Hero Games is in the second
edit, and she's told me that if she had been given a choice it would NOT
have Fuzion stats in it at all. As is, she's just going to do a mass
conversion and chuck the Fuzion stats in an appendix.
--
kal...@sandwich.net http://www.sandwich.net/kalten
*** People who send me UBE or UCE will be crucified! ***
"Lenny, you haven't seen my sanity lying around anywhere, have you?"
--Bruno (http://www.brunostrip.com/bruno.html)
Blackberry
>
>> Champions that just connected with me from the first time I read the
>> rules -- it simply felt right to me.
>
>I've trie dfor years to get players nterested in Hero System, mostly they scoff
>and we go onto games that have a much less steep learning curve, and PC creation
>is consistent point wise or at least consistent for the genre.
I've found that you can teach any good system to any RPG player, even a total
newbie with no math skills. I've taught full-blown Rolemaster to people who
couldn't successfully add two numbers above 20, but they got it right away.
Also, I think my players grasp the idea of the HERO system pretty well, and
frankly, I don't think I'd grasp the idea of an anime-based system working for
conventional four-color superheroes with a slightly dark edge. Anime is for
stuff that's totally over the top, even as far as comics are concerned. Yes, I
know there is soap-opera style anime, but that's not what people mostly want to
play.
>> Finally, I would argue that BESM is less flexible (at least finer levels of
>> detail),
>
>It is as flexible, anything that can be done in Hero can be done in BESM and
>with a lot less time involved unless we are dealing with Power Pools..:) or
>Dynamic Sorcery. BESM actually leaves the SFX to being SFX which is a plus to
>me, but not to some.
That's what HERO does too. SFX can tell you what kind of advantages and
limitations you put on a power... is that what you mean? It's not required
though.
--------------------
"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet."
-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Brian -- le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com -- remove "NOSPAM"
incrdbil
>[1] Yes, required. My wife's manuscript for Hero Games is in the second
>edit, and she's told me that if she had been given a choice it would NOT
>have Fuzion stats in it at all. As is, she's just going to do a mass
>conversion and chuck the Fuzion stats in an appendix.
It's a shame pages have to be wasted on the fuzion conversions at all
sorry if that offends--let's just say how non-impressive fuzion was to
me.
incrdbil
Sidhain
> newbie with no math skills. I've taught full-blown Rolemaster to people who
> couldn't successfully add two numbers above 20, but they got it right away.
>
If they are interested in learning it and some don't want to.
> Also, I think my players grasp the idea of the HERO system pretty well, and
> frankly, I don't think I'd grasp the idea of an anime-based system working for
> conventional four-color superheroes with a slightly dark edge. Anime is for
> stuff that's totally over the top, even as far as comics are concerned. Yes,
I
> know there is soap-opera style anime, but that's not what people mostly want
to
> play.
BESM can doe supers, in fact it works somewhat decently for dark edged near
realistic on up to 4 color. I know I've done so.
>
> That's what HERO does too. SFX can tell you what kind of advantages and
> limitations you put on a power... is that what you mean? It's not required
> though.
>
Except they expect you to add it mechanically that makes it no longer SFX in
game b ut rather a metagame mechanic consideration.
Sidhain
> BESM has been sitting in it's corner of the gamestore shelf for a long time.
> we've picked it up, read it to see if it could be fun and subsequently
> plopped it back unceremoniously. Just another anime game....
>
If it's 1E I can understand if it's 2E I think you've made a serious mistake.
Mike McClain
fuzion in hero 5th--I'd be even more pleased if they had ever put out a
full-featured powers plug-in for CNM(like, say, a year or two after its
release). But at least it will now be completely possible to smoothly
convert Hero writeups to fuzion and vice versa.
There will also be Hero stats in CNM 2E, the color pages have been
grayscaled for greater binding strength, and the additional power rules
from the two sourcebooks have been put into the basic powers plug-in.
So adders and limiters are now "core" elements of fuzion. This means
nothing to the hero diehards, I realize, but it bodes well for future
CNM releases.
Hero has repeatedly emphasized that 5E is NOT Champions 5. If you want
to use it that way, that's your prerogative.
Hero has said absolutely nothing about following up the release with
tons of new hero system stuff, have they?
They have said they will be producing more sourcebooks for CNM(albeit
with Hero system stats).
They are supporting Hero with e-books, but that's not quite the same
thing.
I like Hero System--heck, used it exclusively for 12 years--but when
people start slagging fuzion(as they have from day 1 of its release),
often with complete ignorance of where fuzion has evolved to as a
system, and how it is still evolving and improving, I start seeing red.
give it a rest, willya?
mike mcclain, Cornell class of '90
Bryan J. Maloney
<3A67CF6B...@home.com>:
>Well, I give a damn. I'm pleased there will be conversion notes for
>fuzion in hero 5th--I'd be even more pleased if they had ever put out a
>full-featured powers plug-in for CNM(like, say, a year or two after its
Of course, there will be no such thing, since the Fuzion release history is a
model of piecemeal and spotty.
>nothing to the hero diehards, I realize, but it bodes well for future
>CNM releases.
CNM bores me, at best.
>people start slagging fuzion(as they have from day 1 of its release),
>often with complete ignorance of where fuzion has evolved to as a
>system, and how it is still evolving and improving, I start seeing red.
I have quite a bit of knowledge of how Fuzion has evolved. I'm utterly
underwhelmed.
>mike mcclain, Cornell class of '90
I don't care what "Cornell class" you're of, given that I'm not of any Cornell
class at all. Some of us here work for a living.
Blackberry
>
>Except they expect you to add it mechanically that makes it no longer SFX in
>game b ut rather a metagame mechanic consideration.
No, you don't have to add any special effects as mechanics. Buy 10d6 Energy
Blast, and call it Massive Sleet Blast or Fire Breath or Laser Zappy Finger
Thing. Nothing in the rules requires or expects you to purchase anything for
your special effects.
Now, as GM, I would say that, if your special effect suggests a particular power
advantage or limitation by its nature ("AE: Cone" for Fire Breath, "Can't Spread
or Bounce" for Laser Zappy Finger Thing, etc.), then I would make that
suggestion to you, but neither I nor the rules would require you to take it.
Are you saying that, in BESM, if you have a limitation on a power because of its
special effect, you don't get any points back?
Erik Stutzman
Sidhain <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3TO96.515$rH6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I heard about that- take 3-4 books and condense them into the 2nd edition.
The problem is, how many people are going to keep an eye out for it,
especially if they were burned on the first one (only 90+ pages IIRC)?
I'll probably end up getting it (as well as Hot Rods, Gun Bunnies because
apparently a lot of that one WASN'T put in the 2nd Ed), but I don't know
that I would have if I'd gotten the 1st Ed already.
Curtis Gibson
>I like Hero System--heck, used it exclusively for 12 years--but when
>people start slagging fuzion(as they have from day 1 of its release),
>often with complete ignorance of where fuzion has evolved to as a
>system, and how it is still evolving and improving, I start seeing red.
>
>give it a rest, willya?
>
>mike mcclain, Cornell class of '90
My problem with fusion (and no this is not a flame, just a calm
explination), is that is just doesn't do what I want. My fantasy game
was a 'translational fantasy' with heroes coming from other worlds.
The first run had a cyberpunk, a low powered super and a character
from the old west. The second bunch (in the sequal run) add a
jedi-type, a Cthuluian investigator, and a modernday spytype. Yes
there were fantasy natives involved too.
I just used each of the Hero sourcebooks to build the character, with
the approriate maxes on DCs, dex and like, and then brought them
strait in. Running the fantasy game took no new rules, no adjustments
to the characters, or no unbalancing problems with the different
character power levels. You cannot do that in fusion. Each version can
(and often does) have it's own stats, and the plug-ins are not
balanced with each other. So for my style of play (lots of cross genre
stuff, and supers which is inherently cross genre), Fusion falls flat.
-Mhoram
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the precipitate.
-Steven Wright
Sidhain
>
> Are you saying that, in BESM, if you have a limitation on a power because of
its
> special effect, you don't get any points back?
>
Nope.
Go read it. It would take less time for example I could build a super with a
device that "does no damage but is entangling and spreading" and have
webshooters.
Apostle
conversion stats on their webpage and use the extra space
for more pure Hero or Fuzion material.
I know I'm part of a minority, but I won't buy C:NM because it is
a Fuzion product. I don't support games I don't care for; even
if I do like the company's other products.
Blackberry
Next time I get into a game store that has a copy (which I don't think any
around here do), I will read it. But "Go read it" is hardly a selling point. :)
And I can build the same power in Hero in just as much time. Entangle,
AE:Hexes.
Mike McClain
Ithaca...:)
The great irony is that Jason Dour has put out a very good powers plug
in for fuzion on the web--All Hero would need to do is sign off on it...
Anyway, I still play a hero system campaign, and am routinely made aware
of the flaws and limitations of hero system compared to fuzion(much
slower combat, the killing attack stun lotto, endless rules rape,
etc.)--at the very least I would say the pro-Hero anti-fuzion faction
are hurling stones out of very fragile glass houses...
mike
Sidhain
> in for fuzion on the web--All Hero would need to do is sign off on it...
>
>
> Anyway, I still play a hero system campaign, and am routinely made aware
> of the flaws and limitations of hero system compared to fuzion(much
> slower combat, the killing attack stun lotto, endless rules rape,
> etc.)--at the very least I would say the pro-Hero anti-fuzion faction
> are hurling stones out of very fragile glass houses...
>
>
Now why would they not do that...everyone thinks there favorite game is better
tan everyone else's favorite game right?
Jeffrey Knight
Luce at cha...@eql14.caltech.edu wrote on 1/19/01 6:50 PM:
> Until then, I'm another former Hero GM/player who has BESM2 on order...
> (Well, that and the Aberrant Player's Guide, and BoH SE :)
I've seen a number of posts from people who have moved from Hero to BESM (or
at least strongly recommended it.) This is somewhat surprising to me that
BESM should be considered a friendlier version of Hero. I've always took it
to be a friendlier version of GURPS. (basically the same mechanics, minus
one stat and minus one die :)
Anyhoo, for those using BESM to run super hero games, how do you do it? So
far from what I've seen (I own BESM 1st; Big Robots, Cool Starships; and
Sailor Moon Resource and RPG), the powers that are available are rather
vague and subjective. (take elemental control for instance). Do you just
make stuff up as you go along, or are there set power lists that you work
off of?
--
Jeff
"Using my steel-strong hair as a MOP, I can scrub up every ounce of that
sticky syrup!"
--Superman
incrdbil
>far from what I've seen (I own BESM 1st; Big Robots, Cool Starships; and
>Sailor Moon Resource and RPG), the powers that are available are rather
>vague and subjective. (take elemental control for instance). Do you just
>make stuff up as you go along, or are there set power lists that you work
>off of?
>
Heck, were still using our old products--the core system still works
fine. I've never even seen, or heard of BESM till these posts, but I
don't think I have any intetrest at all in a system primarily intended
for anime.
I"ll be happy to see Hero 5th edition come out--perhaps if they quit
wasting efforts on fuzion and NM products, and concentrated on one
ediiton/era, they could maintain a schedule within limits. Time to
face the facts--Fuzion flopped and has been rejected, and won't save
the day.
incrdbil
incrdbil
>in for fuzion on the web--All Hero would need to do is sign off on it...
>
>
>Anyway, I still play a hero system campaign, and am routinely made aware
>of the flaws and limitations of hero system compared to fuzion(much
>slower combat,
Heroes--just don't mind how a huge power range is compacted withn a
small number spread :)
>the killing attack stun lotto,
Which has always made sense to me--makes the power erratic, but
potentially powerful/deadly, while normal attacks are more
"dependable".
endless rules rape,
happens in any system, and is the GM's duty to stop.
>etc.)--at the very least I would say the pro-Hero anti-fuzion faction
>are hurling stones out of very fragile glass houses...
piffle.
incrdbil
Blackberry
>
>well, I guess that's the only conceivable reason anyone would STAY in
>Ithaca...:)
>
>The great irony is that Jason Dour has put out a very good powers plug
>in for fuzion on the web--All Hero would need to do is sign off on it...
>
>
>Anyway, I still play a hero system campaign, and am routinely made aware
>of the flaws and limitations of hero system compared to fuzion
>(much slower combat,
I don't know Fuzion, but HERO combat probably does objectively take more time to
resolve. Do you get a better panel-by-panel comic-book feel from HERO or
Fuzion?
I personally like HERO's combat and timing system. I think it works well and is
internally consistent.
>the killing attack stun lotto,
STUN has to be figured somehow for killing attacks. What would you recommend?
The "lotto" represents the fact that the nature of tissue-penetrating injuries
can vary greatly. For example, a gunshot to the chest might not do a whole lot
of damage (might deflect through a rib and come out the side instead of
puncturing organs) but it might carry a whole lot of oomph (low BODY, high
STUN); a shot to the arm or lower leg may crack the bone and shred muscle, but
the person might be able to grit their teeth and shrug it off while their
adrenaline is pumping (high BODY, low STUN).
The provided hit location rules give you a workable and somewhat realistic
alternative to the standard random STUN multiple.
>endless rules rape,
Such as? You mean minmaxing points? Yes, HERO is capable of allowing it, but
GMs are capable of disallowing it. There is no way to bend the rules to your
advantage in Fuzion or BESM?
>etc.)--at the very least I would say the pro-Hero anti-fuzion faction
>are hurling stones out of very fragile glass houses...
I'm game. Try again. :)
knight...@my-deja.com
I remember when C:NM came out. I was estatic! New Champions Product!
Wahoo!
Ten minutes later..
"Man, this is some crappy art and design, and what is this world they
are using? Image Lite?"
An Hour Later...
"What the F***!?! Fuzion? What in the hell is Fuzion!?!"
Two Hours Later..
Me to all my friends:
"The world just plain sucks. And the rules are laughable. We will give
it a shot next week though, I might be wrong."
The next week..
At the used book store..
"That will be eight-fifty in store credit for Champions:New Millenium."
I felt like I had been bent over a fire hydrant and reamed with a can
of Drano. I felt tricked and cheated.
Publish second edition, publish third edition, publish until the cows
come home.
I don't care. You see, your second edition selling point is no selling
point. "Hey, here is the same crappy setting with HERO stats! Yes! Now
you can integrate this piss-poor idea for a campaign setting into your
own campaign! Lameness for everyone!
Wahoo!"
Uggh.
Someone pass me the preparation-H? I feel the old pain returning..
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
James Nicoll
Jeffrey Knight <jeffk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Anyhoo, for those using BESM to run super hero games, how do you do it? So
>far from what I've seen (I own BESM 1st; Big Robots, Cool Starships; and
>Sailor Moon Resource and RPG), the powers that are available are rather
>vague and subjective. (take elemental control for instance). Do you just
>make stuff up as you go along, or are there set power lists that you work
>off of?
BESM 2E is _much_ more detailed than 1E. There are a lot more
special attributes to work with.
You could fake it with the Tenchi game, I bet. There's no
reason I can see that all of Earth could not potentially be able
to learn to use Jurai abilities.
Marc Lombart
Luce) wrote:
>Until then, I'm another former Hero GM/player who has BESM2 on order...
>(Well, that and the Aberrant Player's Guide, and BoH SE :)
Wow, same here. Well, I have BESM2, and I haven't ordered the
player's guide, or BoH...:)
--
Marc el Kato
mailto:master...@netzero.net
ICQ UIN: 3337155
Please, reply either to the group or via eMail, not both.
Hero Games
next product up is Ultimate Super Mage, which should be going off to the
printer before the end of this month, and then Hero System 5th Edition. We have
more Ultimate books planned, a steady series of Champions products (including a
new VIPER book by Scott Bennie and Steve Long), a new edition of Star Hero, and
other stuff.
When the 5th Edition Hero System comes out we'll have a new template for Hero
Creator available; it'll be free to current Hero Creator owners.
As far as whether or not you like Fuzion, that's entirely up to you... it's not
targeted at current Hero System gamers, it's intended to reach a wider
audience. Which it's been doing, and will continue to do (Dragonball Z, for
instance, has been a huge success). We'd like Fuzion players to pick up the 5th
Edition Hero System book and use it to get detailed power creation rules for
Fuzion. Hero System players should be happy with the 5th Edition, because it
provides more options and more detail without changing the basic rules (new
options include being able to build all Enhanced Senses and Talents, for
instance).
Has the 5th Edition of the Hero System taken longer than we wanted to put
together? Yes. Are we upset by this? More than anyone else... after all, it's
our baby that we created, *and* we make our living from it now. Will we rush it
out the door because we've been late? No, we're already late, so it had better
be high quality when it comes out.
I think that this year will be an excellent one for both Champions and Hero
System gamers. Stop by the discussion boards and chime in with what you'd like
to see from us.
And stay tuned for more announcements...
-- Steve Peterson, Cybergames.com
Mike McClain
Blackberry wrote:
<<I don't know Fuzion, but HERO combat probably does objectively take
more time to
resolve. Do you get a better panel-by-panel comic-book feel from HERO
or
Fuzion?
I personally like HERO's combat and timing system. I think it works
well and is
internally consistent.
STUN has to be figured somehow for killing attacks. What would you
recommend?
The "lotto" represents the fact that the nature of tissue-penetrating
injuries
can vary greatly. For example, a gunshot to the chest might not do a
whole lot
of damage (might deflect through a rib and come out the side instead of
puncturing organs) but it might carry a whole lot of oomph (low BODY,
high
STUN); a shot to the arm or lower leg may crack the bone and shred
muscle, but
the person might be able to grit their teeth and shrug it off while
their
adrenaline is pumping (high BODY, low STUN).
The provided hit location rules give you a workable and somewhat
realistic
alternative to the standard random STUN multiple.
Such as? You mean minmaxing points? Yes, HERO is capable of allowing
it, but
GMs are capable of disallowing it. There is no way to bend the rules to
your
advantage in Fuzion or BESM?
>
I'm game. Try again. >>
Okay, point by-point, here we go:
1. the combat and timing system in Fuzion is virtually identical to
hero, if you want it that way. You also have the option of simplifying
the speed system. Because the numbers are more straightforward, and the
dice rolling is treated as an opposed skill roll, making the concept
consistent for all opposed skills including combat. Because you don't
have to count the body, just add the pips, and you just have to beat the
other guys roll to hit or evade. It's nice to have a chance to affect
the outcome of the villain's attempt to hit you. I find the combat
effects are similar to hero, but it takes about one-half to one-third
the time to run the combat. If there is any loss of detail, it is more
than compensated for by the reduction of time spent on combat, allowing
more session time for roleplay. You can also ratchet up the detail
level, if you like, and still save some time over hero system. And if
you don't want opposed skill rolls in combat, just add 10 to the
Difficulty value(dex + evade).
2. Killing attacks--this problem doesn't exist in fuzion. By the way,
killing attacks have just one purpose in fuzion--killing people. Some
have complained that their big tough brick can suffer injury from
sizable killing attacks in fuzion. Oh my goodness! What a shame. As
opposed to the hero system, where they only have to worry about the rist
of the big attack knocking them out. I find that heroic players get a
bit more reluctant to uncork killing attacks willy-nilly. In every
Champs campaign I ever participated in, someone played the stun lotto to
knock out the big tough bad guy. I understand the hero 5 will now have
a flat stun multiple for KAs--about time. By the way, fuzion has
similar rules for damage modifiers by hit location, if you want more
"realism".
3. Actually, I mean more than minimaxing:
a. STR 40 brick buys 2d6 HKA(claws), 4d6 KA normal, but when
pushed--5d6+1 KA.
b. autofire NNDs etc.
c. characters who build everything to maximum--max attack, max defense,
max CV, etc.
Fuzion is not immune to this, BUT it is a little more difficult, and the
payoff is smaller. The Rule of X has a tendency to balance out
characters. Adders and limiters are slightly less abuse-prone than
advantages and limitations. Besides, why should a GM be forced to
micromanage everyone's character writeup?
mike
incrdbil
>instance, has been a huge success). We'd like Fuzion players to pick up the 5th
>Edition Hero System book and use it to get detailed power creation rules for
>Fuzion.
Just call me crazy, but isn't the above a striking reason not to do
Fuzion at all?
incrdbil
Andrew Ross
>
>(Dragonball Z, for instance, has been a huge success). We'd like Fuzion players to pick up the 5th Edition Hero System book and use it to get detailed power creation rules for Fuzion. Hero System players should be happy with the 5th Edition, because it provides more options and more detail without changing the basic rules (new options include being able to build all Enhanced Senses and Talents, for instance).
>
which have been gathering dust since they came out and when asked say
that while they might look at Champs 5th, they've given up on Fuzion,
especially Champs NM since it doesn't sell.
And let me see if I get this right. Fuzion players need to get Hero 5 to
get detailed power creation rules? What the heck is the point then?
Cybermessiah
on the subject of Heroic abilities
Jason dour has repeatedly stated on the fuzion mailing list that he's
planning on making a full version of it that he plans to sell as a
licensed fuzion product
but he also announced he's no longer part of the fuze group and has
taken off his version off their site and returned to hosting his
versions on his own site. with a new version on eminent release.
I guess--- Power Core v3 Will be better, cause I don't like the point
rule rapes of heroic Abilities.
20 points does alot more in HA then in fuzion or hero.
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:27:53 GMT, Mike McClain <mikem...@home.com>
wrote:
Blackberry
>
>1. the combat and timing system in Fuzion is virtually identical to
>hero, if you want it that way. You also have the option of simplifying
>the speed system.
You have the option of doing this in HERO too. It's even published in one of
the Fantasy Hero books or supplements.
>Because the numbers are more straightforward, and the
>dice rolling is treated as an opposed skill roll, making the concept
>consistent for all opposed skills including combat.
Okay, though some people don't prefer an opposed skill system for all task
resolution. Also, I find that the HERO task success system is consistent in
combat. If you need to try to hit, you roll to hit. If you need to dodge,
apply modifier to your DCV. If you need to block, roll OCV vs. OCV. It always
uses the same system for resolution.
>Because you don't
>have to count the body, just add the pips, and you just have to beat the
>other guys roll to hit or evade.
So, it sounds a lot like GURPS. How do normal attacks do fatal damage then?
>It's nice to have a chance to affect
>the outcome of the villain's attempt to hit you.
You can in HERO too -- dodge, block, dive for cover, perform acrobatics, turn on
a power... Also, in a lot of four-color superheroic comics, the panels *do* go
turn by turn -- person 1 shoots, person 2 gets hit (or doesn't), then person 2
shoots, person 1 gets hit (or doesn't).
>I find the combat
>effects are similar to hero, but it takes about one-half to one-third
>the time to run the combat. If there is any loss of detail, it is more
>than compensated for by the reduction of time spent on combat, allowing
>more session time for roleplay. You can also ratchet up the detail
>level, if you like, and still save some time over hero system. And if
>you don't want opposed skill rolls in combat, just add 10 to the
>Difficulty value(dex + evade).
And if you don't like HERO's system, you can compare an attacker's roll + OCV
vs. a defender's roll + DCV. I believe someone's Fantasy Hero house rule
suggests this.
>2. Killing attacks--this problem doesn't exist in fuzion. By the way,
>killing attacks have just one purpose in fuzion--killing people. Some
>have complained that their big tough brick can suffer injury from
>sizable killing attacks in fuzion. Oh my goodness! What a shame. As
>opposed to the hero system, where they only have to worry about the rist
>of the big attack knocking them out. I find that heroic players get a
>bit more reluctant to uncork killing attacks willy-nilly. In every
>Champs campaign I ever participated in, someone played the stun lotto to
>knock out the big tough bad guy. I understand the hero 5 will now have
>a flat stun multiple for KAs--about time. By the way, fuzion has
>similar rules for damage modifiers by hit location, if you want more
>"realism".
Um... next time, try using the insta-kill gun on the wimpy flying guy instead of
the brick house guy.
Does everyone in your Champions campaign have Force Field, Armor, or Damage
Resistance? And it fits in perfectly with their concept? Even Wheelchair
Mentalist Man?
One of my heroes once pasted a cop with something like a 4d6 HKA claw attack
(w/STR), and they had nothing but problems after that. The bad guys *and* the
authorities were after them.
>3. Actually, I mean more than minimaxing:
>a. STR 40 brick buys 2d6 HKA(claws), 4d6 KA normal, but when
>pushed--5d6+1 KA.
It had better fit into his conception that he can pulverize a heavy tank with
one punch. Otherwise, I won't allow it, or I will show him the first time he
tries to use it on Wimpy Caped Flyer and he ends up sushi.
>b. autofire NNDs etc.
Nice power, but you'd better have a good reason to have it. Don't forget your
END cost. :)
>c. characters who build everything to maximum--max attack, max defense,
>max CV, etc.
(1) They're more likely to be missing many other things you can take advantage
of. That's why it's an RPG and not a boardgame. So, player A has Captain Max
CV. Put him in a situation where he has to use chemical engineering to figure
out how to save the elderly nuns. Oops! Well, he could smash the nuns into
pate' so they don't feel the deathtrap coming...
>Fuzion is not immune to this, BUT it is a little more difficult, and the
>payoff is smaller. The Rule of X has a tendency to balance out
>characters. Adders and limiters are slightly less abuse-prone than
>advantages and limitations. Besides, why should a GM be forced to
>micromanage everyone's character writeup?
I don't think they are, but a GM should be able to read over a character's
writeup with the player and ask *why* they have a particular power, its origin,
its physics, and its special effects. If you bought an Autofire NND EB just
because it's cool, sorry, but you don't get it. If you can explain it, sure.
I'll just put you up against more robots. :)
Mike McClain
Blackberry wrote:
<<How do normal attacks do fatal damage then?>>
You are referring to stun rollover--for every five points of stun done
in fuzion, one hit is subtracted from the target's hits. Note that this
damage ratio can be adjusted for different campaigns--you can lower it
to one hit per 10 or 20 stun over. It allows normal attacks to do
lasting damage--in fact, you can beat a fairly tough opponent to death,
if you're not careful. It's a judgment call for that provision--if you
want to disallow the possibilty, set the ratio lower, or set a cap on
rollover hit damage. But it is good for simulating lasting concussion,
internal and soft tissue damage--you don't have to break bones or cut
skin to cause major problems for another human being.
And fuzion scales up much better than hero system--if you don't believe
me, let's take the following example:
Maverick ATGM: 6d6 RKA, Armor-Piercing, no range mods:180 active
points.
Fuzion stats: 18d6 EB, Killing, AP, no range mods:26 Power Points(PP)
To get the damage for example 1, roll 6d6 for body, then multiply by
1d6-1 for stun, to generate a range from 6-36 body(avg.21), and from
6-180 stun(avg.52.5). 21 Body is just enough damage to kill a normal
instantly.
For fuzion, multiply 18d6 for hits--the number rolled is also the stun
damage(note: hits/stun = fuzion "body" x 5). The damage range is from
18-108(avg.63). 63 hits will instantly kill a character with 9
Body--this is legendary human level in fuzion. a normal human will have
about 15-20 hits in fuzion, and dies when their hits are reduced to -2 x
Body. So for a normal, they die instantly from about 21-28 hits of
damage, or 6-8d6 kill. This is equivalent to a high-powered magnum
revolver, or a high-powered sniper rifle. Even with below average
rolls, a normal will still die instantly when hit by a large
ATGM(anti-tank guided missile--the maverick can plow through a meter of
steel).
In hero, I could roll low, say 15 body, and someone could save that
normal's life with a good paramedic roll. "Sure, he was hit head on by
a tank-killing missile, but we can still save him...."
I'm sorry, but in the great killing attack argument, the best you can
hope for is a draw:)
The other things you mentioned, vis a vis player options in combat, all
exist in fuzion. Practically everything in hero exists in fuzion,
albeit in a more streamlined form. the major differences at present
are:
Hero:
1. more detailed powers construction.
2. more number crunching.
3. installed userbase
fuzion:
1. shorter learning curve
2. faster character creation, combat resolution--more time for role-play
3. rule of x
I might remind people that the same people who designed fuzion also
designed hero system(well, except pondsmith), and that they were
designing fuzion as the replacement for hero system. They made several
tactical errors:
1. CNM too Image-y in appearance.
2. Initial fuzion rules woefully inadequate by standards of Hero system
fans.
3. underestimating selling job required.
The only other error I perceive was caving to pressure to create 5th
edition. That only served to reinforce and justify the initial adverse
response to fuzion. Had they released a non-slick, comprehensive(i.e.,
full powers plug-in) initial book, said, "this is it", and gone all out
to persuade the old guard, there still would be people who wouldn't like
it(heck, there were people who didn't want to switch from 3rd edition!),
but there would not have been the fracture that has occurred. As a fan
of fuzion, I feel a little disappointment at the resources plowed into
5th edition, which could have gone into making fuzion something to be
taken less lightly.
mike
Dr Nuncheon
>Luce at cha...@eql14.caltech.edu wrote on 1/19/01 6:50 PM:
>
>> Until then, I'm another former Hero GM/player who has BESM2 on order...
>> (Well, that and the Aberrant Player's Guide, and BoH SE :)
>
>I've seen a number of posts from people who have moved from Hero to BESM (or
>at least strongly recommended it.) This is somewhat surprising to me that
>BESM should be considered a friendlier version of Hero. I've always took it
>to be a friendlier version of GURPS. (basically the same mechanics, minus
>one stat and minus one die :)
Same mechanics? I guess, from a very broad stance: 'roll under this
number'. Then again, by that standpoint HERO has the same mechanics as
well...as does D&D3 and bunches of other games.
I think the constant comparison of BESM to HERO comes from the built-in
flexibility of both games, especially with their 'power-building systems'.
I'd personally place BESM somewhere between GURPS and HERO on that scale,
much closer to HEROs end.
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
Jeffrey Knight
je...@fnord.io.com wrote on 1/21/01 7:42 AM:
>
> Same mechanics? I guess, from a very broad stance: 'roll under this
> number'. Then again, by that standpoint HERO has the same mechanics as
> well...as does D&D3 and bunches of other games.
Well, I meant the same as in: roll under basic stat to succeed; as opposed
to subtract this number from that number, add difference to '11', then roll
under the total result to succeed.
> I think the constant comparison of BESM to HERO comes from the built-in
> flexibility of both games, especially with their 'power-building systems'.
> I'd personally place BESM somewhere between GURPS and HERO on that scale,
> much closer to HEROs end.
I'm thinking I really must check out 2nd ed when I get the chance. (Not
that I have the money to buy it yet or anything. :)
Tony Smith
Feel free to disagree.
> We have a strong lineup of support planned for both Hero System and
Fuzion. The
> next product up is Ultimate Super Mage, which should be going off to the
> printer before the end of this month, and then Hero System 5th Edition.
The "Ultimate ________" series of books represents what I believe to be one
of HERO's really big mistakes. When 4th Edition first came out (BTW I am a
HUGE 4th Edition Fan - I consider it the BEST RPG system ever created) there
weren't any "how to build character X" books, yet I NEVER had a problem
designing supers characters using the HERO system.
How you might ask?
Classic Enemies, Classic Organizations, Day of the Destroyer and the entire
deluge of really great modules, organization books etc provided me with a
wealth of information on how to create a given power motif. PLUS they gave
me a whole slew of workable characters that were ready to be placed in my
Champions campaign.
I mean how many differeny High Tech/ Armored Supervillians were there in
Classic Enemies, how many martial artists, mentalists, energy blasters etc.
etc. etc? If they didn't exactly cover the special effect I wanted - they
usually suggested where to begin.
> more Ultimate books planned, a steady series of Champions products
(including a
> new VIPER book by Scott Bennie and Steve Long), a new edition of Star
Hero, and
> other stuff.
Anything by Scott Bennie (Or Scott Heine for that matter) became a required
purchase in my book. WHY? Because they built on one of Champions core
strengths- the fact that this SUPER RPG wasn't specifically tied to a comic
universe like Marvel or DC's rpgs. Sure a GM could create Superman or
Spiderman for his world - but the sourcebooks and modules were designed for
an independent universe which didn't require the presence or these
heroes/villains.
And this brings me to HERO's second big mistake - NOT taking advantage of
the fact that they had a generic universe by building on it! The best
"purely" adventure module for 4th Edition IMHO was "Day of the Destroyer"
(kudos Mr. Bennie if you read these forums). WHY? Because it took elements
and characters from other "Classic" 4th Edition Projects (and even a few 3rd
Edition ones) and referenced them in the story thus creating a distinctive
Champions universe (something I have to praise C:NM for at least *trying* to
do.) Why weren't more of these types of modules solicited/produced?
Third Big Mistake: Not finding a really good replacement for Rob Bell. Not
that I specificall blame Monte Cook however, the general quality of
Champions products took a nose dive after Bell's departure (although there
were a few bright spots - Viper, High Tech Enemies, Champions Presents #1 -
there were also alot of REAL stinkers: European Enemies, Hero Systems
Almanac (and the horrid spirit rules) and the terribly bad CyberHero and
Horror Hero.
There were also several instances where a line editor was needed for the
Champions universe. How many different Atlantis' were there? The one
mentioned in Zodiac conspiracy? Voice of Doom?, the Atlantis Sourcebook? or
even Phil Master's (trippin' kewl) Kingdom of Champions - which I really
liked with the exception that the format for some of the characters (ie-not
traditional character sheet like format ala the "Classic" books wasn't
used.)
4th Big Mistake: Not playing up the "universal" angle of the system. Hero
is just as flexible as GURPS (and in many ways more readily adaptable -
after all you ONLY need *1* book for non-source material) and yet GURPS and
Steve Jackson produced far more genre specific texts than HERO - which
seemed to limit itself to just the "supers" genre (this might have something
to do with ICE not wanting HERO products to compete with its Rolemaster
system - but it still represents a fatal flaw in Hero's marketing.)
5th Big Mistake: "The Sequel Syndrome" Ninja Hero was a success! Let's
have Ultimate Martial Artist. Mystic Masters did pretty well - time for
Ultimate Supermage! PSI (another Scott Heine book - suprised?) was well
received - time for Ultimate Mentalist! High Tech Enemies spawned the
possibility of Ultimate Super Tech Hero etc. etc. etc. These were all
missed oppurtunities to develop OTHER angles - some of which actually did
see the light of day with the Primus Sourcebook.
Instead of Ultimate Super Mage - what about doing something with the Circle
(HERO referenced them enough times in 4th Edition and the 3rd edition books
were hard to find an badly needed an update), DEMON, or even a sourcebook
detailing a Comic Book "Hell" for the Champions universe.
Ultimate Martial Artist? Nyah! How about a Far East Heroes supplement ala
Kingdom of Champions and Champions of the North? You can't tell me that
these wouldn't have sold.
Ultimate Mentalist? What about a sourcebook detailing material specific to
mental supers? How the presence of telepathy and other mental powers have
affected the champions universe and maybe even a few organizations - such as
the Justice Department's rogue "thought police" group, a KGB style ESPionage
agency, maybe even a radical religious group that uses mental powers to add
members to their cult. Now I would have bought THAT in a heartbeat.
> When the 5th Edition Hero System comes out we'll have a new template for
Hero
> Creator available; it'll be free to current Hero Creator owners.
"When..." being the operative word, here. I know that there are some things
that a company can't control - but let's face it, HERO screwed up big time
promising what they couldn't deliver. In the future - don't say anything
until the product is going out to the stores - that way at least you don't
keep ticking off the target group.
> As far as whether or not you like Fuzion, that's entirely up to you...
it's not
> targeted at current Hero System gamers, it's intended to reach a wider
> audience.
Then why is it being advertised with a modified Champions' Universe?, Why is
C:NM - which ignores 12+ years of established continuity - the new default
Superhero setting for the Champions Universe? Also it seems to me that HERO
should worry more about satisfying the core faithful (who did a damn good
job of word of mouth advertising during the previous 4 editions) than trying
to out-market juggernauts like Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf etc.
The Powers That Be don't actually think that someone is going to pick up
their new Star Hero rather than WOTC Star Wars without an experienced gamer
providing a little "advice" about the vast superiority of the HERO system to
d20? If they do then they're (to put it bluntly) delusional.
If Fuzion is designed to be the new gneric - one rpg fits all genre's game-
on the block then HERO is doing a really lousy job of promoting it as such.
For all they're protestations that Dragonball Z or the other anime-apps of
Fuzion are doing well -- my local game store isn't stocking them - but its
selling out of BESM. And HERO isn't even trying to get anything out for
non-anime Fuzion stuff: Horror, Sci-Fi etc. Not that I think anything could
stand up to Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Armies, Delta Green etc, (Just look at
WOTC's Dark Matter)
> Which it's been doing, and will continue to do (Dragonball Z, for
> instance, has been a huge success). We'd like Fuzion players to pick up
the 5th
> Edition Hero System book and use it to get detailed power creation rules
for
> Fuzion.
I'm sure *you* would. However, the vast majority of people don't accept the
logic of needing a completely separate rules system (Hero 5th) to make the
one they want to play (Fuzion) work. And by that logic, the people that
like HERO 5th don't want to have to buy C:NM 2end edition and it's Fuzion
rules - just to get any game world related source material they might want
for their C:NM game*. With all the financial problems that HERO has had
over the last decade YOU of all people should realize that money doesn't
grow on trees!
* C:NM did have a few bright spots - especially the later Alliances and City
Sourcebooks which I thought were very well detailed.
> Hero System players should be happy with the 5th Edition, because it
provides more options and more detail without changing
> the basic rules (new options include being able to build all Enhanced
Senses and Talents, for instance).
Minor tweaks which everyone who was interested in doing already implemented
as house rules for their games. Taken with the terrible speed with which
it's taken to produce this book hardly qualifies as a major accomplishment.
Hero 4th did it better with a rapid succession of "must have" sourcebooks:
Classic Enemies, Classic Organizations, Mind Games, Day of the Destroyer,
etc. etc.
Based on your current efforts I predict it will be some time before any
additional material will be available for my Champions game - so I'm not
likely to switch to a new rules system from one that does provide me with
source material.
> Has the 5th Edition of the Hero System taken longer than we wanted to put
> together? Yes. Are we upset by this? More than anyone else... after all,
it's
> our baby that we created, *and* we make our living from it now. Will we
rush it
> out the door because we've been late? No, we're already late, so it had
better
> be high quality when it comes out.
A pizza that's three days late - can still be the best damn pizza on the
planet - but it doesn't do alot for the people who attended the original
party. Professionalism does count for something. And this also goes beyond
Hero 5th, but also to web page updates, keeping you online store functional
etc. etc. etc.
> I think that this year will be an excellent one for both Champions and
Hero
> System gamers. Stop by the discussion boards and chime in with what you'd
like
> to see from us.
1. Supers genre books that take advantage of the current trend in comics
ala books like Planetary, the Books of Magic, Transmetropolitan, the
Invisibles, etc.etc. etc. You obviously can't follow a "re-invent the
legend" motif (ala Kurt Busieks Avengers, X-Men Hidden Years, Astro City
etc.) because you're advertising C:NM as the "old heroes are all dead.....
blah blah".
2. Put the Hero System 4th Edition Rules either back in print (for those
who aren't keen on waiting or don't want 5th Edition) or as a PDF file
(ditto for old modules) with conversions available.
3. Abandon the single timeline of Fantasy - Pulp - Classic Champions - New
Millenium - Star Hero concept - it won't sell (as most groups have their own
superhero universes and it unneccesarily restricts potential writers from
doing stuff for you.)
4. Follow SJG and WOTC's lead and make keeping up your website a top
priority. No more lost links, no more empty promises, maybe throw a few
bones to the "faithful" (conversion rules, gaming articles, superhero
illustrations and map layouts for those who can't draw) who've held out hope
for the last few years. etc. etc.
Do I think that you'll actually do any of this stuff? Nope. Do I think
that Hero is pretty much doomed as a proffessionally supported RPG - yep!
Will I still play it?
If I can find a new copy of 4th Edition Hero System Rulesbook - mine has
just about fallen apart from MASSIVE overuse.
Respectfully yours
Tony Smith
Current D&D 3E Player (What can I say I'm one for nostalgia)
& Charter Member of BBB ("Bring Back Bell!")
incrdbil
>a. STR 40 brick buys 2d6 HKA(claws), 4d6 KA normal, but when
>pushed--5d6+1 KA.
of ocurse, the DM can simply say that strs adds don't stack onto
pushed HKA's. solves that.
>b. autofire NNDs etc.
Hmm, gets expensive unless you are going at 0 end when it comes to
end--not to mention the extra skill levels you need to get hits in.
and in a game with active points limits, you still have a good cap of
damage. (
>c. characters who build everything to maximum--max attack, max defense,
>max CV, etc.
blah blah blah. and that can't be done in fuzion?
>characters. Adders and limiters are slightly less abuse-prone than
>advantages and limitations. Besides, why should a GM be forced to
>micromanage everyone's character writeup?
Because game balance is the GM's responsibility?
>
>mike
incrdbil
incrdbil
wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 05:09:14 GMT, Mike wrote:
>>
>>1. the combat and timing system in Fuzion is virtually identical to
>>hero, if you want it that way. You also have the option of simplifying
>>the speed system.
>
>You have the option of doing this in HERO too. It's even published in one of
>the Fantasy Hero books or supplements.
I havent seen fantasy hero in a bit. What was the option? and why is
the speed system needing simplyfying? Maybe I"m just very used to it,
but what's confusing about it?
>
>I don't think they are, but a GM should be able to read over a character's
>writeup with the player and ask *why* they have a particular power, its origin,
>its physics, and its special effects. If you bought an Autofire NND EB just
>because it's cool, sorry, but you don't get it. If you can explain it, sure.
>I'll just put you up against more robots. :)
>
or, after a few uses, the usual villaisn get a clue, and suddenly they
have a minimal amount of that specific defense bought through a focus
(hey, villains get experience to!) and mister wonder bl;ast suddenly
has a completely ineffective offensive power :)
incrdbil
Matt Korth
hero...@aol.com says...
> We'd like Fuzion players to pick up the 5th
> Edition Hero System book and use it to get detailed power creation rules for
> Fuzion.
Please tell me this doesn't mean that you're planning to waste space in
Hero 5th on Fuzion rules...
--
kal...@sandwich.net http://www.sandwich.net/kalten
*** People who send me UBE or UCE will be crucified! ***
"Lenny, you haven't seen my sanity lying around anywhere, have you?"
--Bruno (http://www.brunostrip.com/bruno.html)
Curtis Gibson
>I might remind people that the same people who designed fuzion also
>designed hero system(well, except pondsmith), and that they were
>designing fuzion as the replacement for hero system. They made several
>tactical errors:
>
>1. CNM too Image-y in appearance.
>2. Initial fuzion rules woefully inadequate by standards of Hero system
>fans.
>3. underestimating selling job required.
There is one other big difference. Some people see it as a strength, I
see it as a problem, and the fatal flaw for Fuzion for me. There is no
"rules applicabilty/balance for cross genre games". Each game can have
it's own plug in, its own stats. This is wonderful for customizing the
game for each genre/world, which I readily admit. The trouble is, it
means Fuzion is not a game system per say, but a game engine, with
each new Fuzion game having new rules, news stats ect.
HERO does not have this problem. A character can be build from Cyber
Hero, or Western Hero, or Horror Hero or Champions, and taken into any
other HERO genre and be played with no conversion, no new plugins to
learn no new stats to figure out. My 10 year old Fantasy game ran
this way. This could not be done is Fuzion. The mecha rules, the magic
rules, the power rules were separate plug-ins and not balance against
each other.
To me, and to everyone I know personally (rather than electronically)
that is Fuzion's fatal flaw. We all play HERO because of it's
universality. We can take HERO 4th (we'd take 5th but it's not out
yet...Arggh) and play any genre we want, no new plugins to find, no
new rules to learn, no new stats to fiddle with.
-Mhoram
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the precipitate.
-Steven Wright
DrFaust
Tony Smith wrote:
>
> 4. Follow SJG and WOTC's lead and make keeping up your website a top
> priority. No more lost links, no more empty promises, maybe throw a few
> bones to the "faithful" (conversion rules, gaming articles, superhero
> illustrations and map layouts for those who can't draw) who've held out hope
> for the last few years. etc. etc.
>
> Do I think that you'll actually do any of this stuff? Nope. Do I think
> that Hero is pretty much doomed as a proffessionally supported RPG - yep!
> Will I still play it?
>
I'm not sure, but I believe that Hero is not run as a full-time company
(such as SJG and WotC) and this shows in the website and such. This may
have changed with the recent acquisition of Hero (?)
dRfAuSt
--
/-------------------------\
* SPAM blocker in effect *
\-------------------------/
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
Mike McClain
incrdbil wrote:
>
blah blah blah. and that can't be done in fuzion?>
No--see the "Rule of X". You can have a high Cv, and low damage, a low
CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
high-CV, high-damage attack.
BTW, fuzion CAN be made consistent from one genre to the other--and
there are lots of little "genre-specific" rules that exist in each
hero-system game--there's stuff about armor encumbrance in FH, and
penalizing bare-hand attacks against armored characters. There was Star
hero, Robot Warriors, etc., all of which had their own little way of
doing things. It's really disingenuous to say that there aren't major
differences in the way the game is played in the different genres.
I think it's helpful if the game system has some built-in methods to
promote game balance. In hero system, I need to make sure there are no
abusive powers, excessive stats, too-high skill levels, and to make sure
the player's math works out right. The ingenuity of players in finding
some new power which is at least a tad too useful never ceases to amaze
me. It's a lot of extra work, IMHO, compared to what i have found in
fuzion. Rule of X, plus simpler math, equals quicker character review.
Quicker combat resolution, quicker character creation, real
customizability through plug-ins, some built-in rules for game
balance--it's not perfect, but in many ways it IS an improvement over
hero system. You may have a different opinion, but I'm not the only
person out there who feels this way. We're not idiots, we just took a
look at the same set of facts with a different perspective and arrived
at a different conclusion.
mike
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>
> hero...@aol.com says...
> > We'd like Fuzion players to pick up the 5th Edition Hero
System
> > book and use it to get detailed power creation rules for
Fuzion.
>
> Please tell me this doesn't mean that you're planning to waste
space
> in Hero 5th on Fuzion rules...
C:NM had a note that said you could design powers using Hero, and
then divide the cost by 5. I think that is what they refer to
here.
Hero 5th is supposed to have a single page dedicated to Instant
Hero, which is identical to Instant Fuzion. But no other Fuzion
stuff, AFAIK.
--
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius
Though strangely seem it might, the day flees the night
And, in a peculiar way, the night flees the day.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>
> why is it being advertised with a modified Champions' Universe?
> - the new default Superhero setting for the Champions Universe?
Because Hero Games doesn't have the rights to all parts of the
established universe, which was created by several writers, not
all of which are affiliated with Hero Games anymore. Hero Games
does have the rights for all parts of New Millenium, which is
also more coherent that the original "continuity", which after
all (as you mentioned) had four different Atlantises.
*I* think that the major mistake of Hero Games is to release a
new version of Hero System that is only marginally different from
4th edition, instead of doing the much needed (IMO) clean-up and
streamlining of the system.
Old Hero fans are unlikely to pick up 5th edition since they are
perfectly happy with 4th edition, or if they have become unhappy
with Hero 4th, it is unlikely that Hero 5th will contain enough
changes to get them back in the fold.
And new players are more likely to go for Fuzion or BESM -- most
modern players want a game that's easy to grasp and can be played
right out of the box, and for all the qualities that Hero System
has, that is not one of them.
--
Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Darrell Hiebert
Blackberry wrote:
>
>
> >the killing attack stun lotto,
>
> STUN has to be figured somehow for killing attacks. What would you recommend?
>
> The "lotto" represents the fact that the nature of tissue-penetrating injuries
> can vary greatly. For example, a gunshot to the chest might not do a whole lot
> of damage (might deflect through a rib and come out the side instead of
> puncturing organs) but it might carry a whole lot of oomph (low BODY, high
> STUN); a shot to the arm or lower leg may crack the bone and shred muscle, but
> the person might be able to grit their teeth and shrug it off while their
> adrenaline is pumping (high BODY, low STUN).
>
> The provided hit location rules give you a workable and somewhat realistic
> alternative to the standard random STUN multiple.
That's what we use, though only to determine Stun from KAs. Makes the
extreme results far less frequent.
Darrell Hiebert
Mike McClain wrote:
>
> incrdbil wrote:
> >
> blah blah blah. and that can't be done in fuzion?>
>
> No--see the "Rule of X". You can have a high Cv, and low damage, a low
> CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
> high-CV, high-damage attack.
Yes, and we introduced a rule like this in Champions long before we saw
CNM. It's not that new an innovation. And I don't need fuzion for
that.Adventurer's club had an article 16! years ago for rating combat
ability. I've used a modified version of that occasionally. GMs can also
say no. The price for true versatility is a potential for abuse. Just
say no!
> Quicker combat resolution, quicker character creation, real
> customizability through plug-ins, some built-in rules for game
> balance--it's not perfect, but in many ways it IS an improvement over
> hero system. You may have a different opinion, but I'm not the only
> person out there who feels this way. We're not idiots, we just took a
> look at the same set of facts with a different perspective and arrived
> at a different conclusion.
agreed, there are definite improvements, not enough for me to convert,
but enough to understand why others have. In fact I'm considering a few
of them as house rules in my game.
>
> mike
Derek Hiemforth
> Old Hero fans are unlikely to pick up 5th edition since they are
> perfectly happy with 4th edition, or if they have become unhappy
> with Hero 4th, it is unlikely that Hero 5th will contain enough
> changes to get them back in the fold.
Respectfully, I think you're dead wrong on this. I think at least
90% of the people who currently play Hero System games regularly and
own the 4th edition rules (or who've wanted to and couldn't because
they've been out of print for so long) will buy 5th edition. And I
would guess that at least half of the former Hero System regulars
who have gone on to other things will buy Hero System 5th to check
out the new rules.
> And new players are more likely to go for Fuzion or BESM -- most
> modern players want a game that's easy to grasp and can be played
> right out of the box, and for all the qualities that Hero System
> has, that is not one of them.
Again, I disagree respectfully. New players play whatever the
people they begin gaming with play. If they learn from people who
play D&D, they buy D&D. If they learn from people playing White
Wolf's games, that's what they buy, etc. I think the game system
has virtually nothing to do with it. Only experienced players know
enough to shop for games based on the style of roleplaying and rules
they promote.
--
Derek Hiemforth
This post reflects only my views. Your mileage may vary. Void
where prohibited. Use only in a well-ventilated area. Fnord.
incrdbil
>Quicker combat resolution, quicker character creation,
note--quicker does nto mean better in all situations--who cares if the
character generation is quicker if it makes bland characters? of
course, if you need a bit more detail to your powers, you have to
follow the Fuzion guideline of converting the power from Hero.
<chuckle>
real
>customizability through plug-ins, some built-in rules for game
>balance--it's not perfect, but in many ways it IS an improvement over
>hero system. You may have a different opinion, but I'm not the only
>person out there who feels this way. We're not idiots, we just took a
>look at the same set of facts with a different perspective and arrived
>at a different conclusion.
nd Hero Games has also been in the toilet since Fuzion came out--it
garnered negligible new gamers, and drove away a majority of it;s
prior faithful (or they at least refused to follow in that
direction)_\
I guess it's simply stubborness that keeps them heading down the wrong
path and delaying the products that are actually desired in favor of
ones that will simply garner dust on the shelves.
>
incrdbil
Dan Norder
Well, I don't want to write this up solely as a finger-pointing exercise, which
has been done enough by myself and others in the past.
How about....
Respectfully submitted as suggestions for Hero to get out of its slump:
OPEN GAMING LICENSE or equivalent. This might be controversial, but I'm
serious. If I want to design modules to sell, or even just release shareware,
or whatever, why would I use Hero System? Other than it's the best system, the
coolest system, etc.? It's not because it has market share. It's not because
they have a cheap license set up. It's not because all the Fuzion people can
divide by 5 or whatever. It's because I love the system. I've wanted to game
for years, tried getting friends to play Champions, they wanted Fantasy.
Started to get them into Fantasy Hero, but they weren't as appreciative of the
total control of every aspect of their character. I've wanted to write up and
publish modules, stats, plot hooks, or etc., but couldn't find a system that
was cheap or free that still interested me. Both of these (trying to game,
wanting to write gaming material) went on for years. D&D now has 3rd edition,
with the D20 license. Am I happy with the system? Not really, not compared to
Hero, but then my friends are suddenly interested in gaming again, and I've got
a way to publish game stats without paying for a license.... not that these
stats would make sense for all genres, but you can't beat the price or
marketshare.
No more "Ultimate ____" books. Please. I never bought a one. They held
absolutely no interest for me. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, although I won't
try to claim everyone agrees with me. The nature of the Hero System means these
books are superfluous. And the name just sounds corny.
No more bland "_____ Hero" genre books. Star Hero. Horror Hero. Western Hero.
Fantasy Hero. These aren't nearly as bad as the Ultimate line, but most of them
don't have much to offer to people who don't already love Champions. Fantasy
Horror was pretty decent, but then it actually had some supporting materials. I
really think to make these work you need something beyond just a whole book
repurposing all the same rules with boring.
Seems to me that Ultimate books and Genre books would need to be blended
together with premade campaign bits, plots, etc. to drop into current
campaigns.
Grab and go power options. Way back when, a year or two ago, when the 5th
edition was delayed again, it was said that one of the reasons was so that
major power right ups with math already done for you could be included, These
would be really nice. If they aren't in there after all this time I would be
upset. I know I love the flexibility, but some players just want to go and
select, say, flameblast with prefigured costs for cone and no knockback,
gluetrap with price of stickiness included, etc.
Cybergames? Hide the name. This is Hero Games, damn it, not some silly jump the
dot com bandwagon after the wheels fell off company. At least I hope it isn't.
Stupid name, can't take it seriously.
Focus on the strengths. Superhero stuff, other larger than life stuff.
Superheros are the niche it once ruled supreme in and can again, easily. Star
Hero? Excuse me? Why would someone get that when they can have Star Wars or
Traveller or whatever other ten billion sci-fi products are out there? What
does Star Hero have that the others don't? Cool background, campaign area,
personalities, tie in stories? What? The Hero System? That's what the Hero
System rulebook is for. New games out there go for flavor (Unknown Armies, All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, Blue Planet, Aberrant). Hero genre books and so forth
aren't known for flavor. It used to be a strength, now I fear it's a liability.
After all, GURPS pretty much has the generic one size fits all system thing
sewn up right now, with enough products to crush anyone out there. Sure, it's
bland, sure the system is way too thin (what is it, four attributes or some
such nonsense? I forget.), sure it's got the dumbest name in the world, but
they have licenses and genres and add ons up the wazoo.
And, one more time, OPEN GAMING LICENSE. Sure, it's a me-too kind of action,
but if Hero were to do it, more people would be exposed to Hero rules than just
through the anemic offerings that are currently planned to be out on the
marketplace sometime. There's probably even a good way to out do WOTC on the
OGL, maybe less restrictions on character building rules or something.
I guarantee that OGL would produce more and better supplements and support than
Hero has any chance to do on their own.
But anyhoo, just my opinions as a longtime Hero fan and customer.
Dan
Mike McClain
more to do with production and line management issues than specific
product. If the production schedule was on par, there would be about
15-20 CNM products out by now, undoubtedly.
why not just ask Hero how many copies of CNM they sold, compared to 4th
edition? Seems simple enough. If it's even a reasonable fraction, then
they did pick up a significant number of new players. If they lost any
it would be due to a lack of follow up, which I hope will begin to be
remedied.
Quicker is better, for those who actually like to roleplay before and
after combat.
Simple stubbornness--gee, that's just what pops into my mind when I
think about the hero system diehards.
The major knock on fuzion seems to be that the powers plug-in isn't as
thorough as hero--there are at least two complete powers plug-ins out
there on the web, and it would behoove Hero to formalize this instead of
saying, "convert from Hero 5th". Frankly, this is a disservice to
fuzion gamers, seems to be a cheap fix, and further reinforces the
prejudices of the hero system diehards.
Yeah, let's get back to releasing dreck like "Day of the Destroyer",
"Roadkill"(the only hero product I have never owned:), etc.
I've seen other people criticize the Ultimate series, which I actually
liked.
I like hero system--I still play it, but I would prefer to use fuzion.
mike
"Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today..."
--paraplegic vet recruiter, "Starship Troopers"
Bryant Berggren
>OPEN GAMING LICENSE or equivalent. This might be controversial, but I'm
>serious. If I want to design modules to sell, or even just release shareware,
>or whatever, why would I use Hero System? Other than it's the best system, the
>coolest system, etc.? It's not because it has market share. It's not because
>they have a cheap license set up. It's not because all the Fuzion people can
>divide by 5 or whatever. It's because I love the system. I've wanted to game
>for years, tried getting friends to play Champions, they wanted Fantasy.
>Started to get them into Fantasy Hero, but they weren't as appreciative of the
>total control of every aspect of their character. I've wanted to write up and
>publish modules, stats, plot hooks, or etc., but couldn't find a system that
>was cheap or free that still interested me. Both of these (trying to game,
>wanting to write gaming material) went on for years. D&D now has 3rd edition,
>with the D20 license. Am I happy with the system? Not really, not compared to
>Hero, but then my friends are suddenly interested in gaming again, and I've got
>a way to publish game stats without paying for a license.... not that these
>stats would make sense for all genres, but you can't beat the price or
>marketshare.
You could *always* publish game stats for free. Always. For any game.
Yes, any game. For any purpose. No license necessary.
The idea that you *need* a license to publish something that just uses
a given game's rules (as opposed to excerpting from the rulebook,
which is something else entirely) is one of the cruelest fictions ever
to establish itself within the psyche of gamerdom.
BRB
John Powell
<hero...@aol.com> wrote:
> We have a strong lineup of support planned for both Hero System and Fuzion.
Thanks for the updates Steve! I'm glad you still post here in spite of
all the rather un-civil remarks folks spin your way. I wish you and the
rest of the Hero crew much success at your new home with Cybergames.
John
Derek Hiemforth
> Respectfully submitted as suggestions for Hero to get out of its slump:
> No more "Ultimate ____" books. Please. I never bought a one.
> No more bland "_____ Hero" genre books. Star Hero. Horror Hero. Western Hero.
> Fantasy Hero. These aren't nearly as bad as the Ultimate line, but most of
> them don't have much to offer to people who don't already love Champions.
Just to show you why it isn't as easy to run a game company as those
of us who don't do so like to think...
I totally disagree with you. :-) I love Ultimate books (have bought
them all and will buy any and all new ones) and I love generic Genre Books
(have bought them all and will buy any and all new ones). I think these
two kinds of books are the most valuable additions to the line and have the
longest shelf life. These two kinds of books get taken off of my gaming
shelf for use probably 5 times as much as any other kinds of Hero System
books (except the core rules, obviously).
So where does that leave us? (Or more importantly, where does that
leave Hero Games in their quest to determine what fans want to see?)
You -- a dedicated Hero System gamer -- don't want Ultimate books and
generic Genre books. I -- a dedicated Hero System gamer -- put those
two kinds of books absolutely at the top of my gaming shopping list.
Who should they try to please? :-)
> Cybergames? Hide the name. This is Hero Games, damn it, not some silly
> jump the dot com bandwagon after the wheels fell off company. At least
> I hope it isn't. Stupid name, can't take it seriously.
Steve Peterson is the VP of marketing for Cybergames.com. So when
he posts something, I assume it's appropriate for him to append that
title. The books of Hero Games (a subsidiary of Cybergames.com) will
(as I understand it) still be published under the Hero Games moniker.
> Focus on the strengths. Superhero stuff, other larger than life stuff.
> Superheros are the niche it once ruled supreme in and can again, easily. Star
> Hero? Excuse me? Why would someone get that when they can have Star Wars or
> Traveller or whatever other ten billion sci-fi products are out there?
Because I want to play sci-fi in the Hero System? Because I want the
sci-fi-specific info Star Hero would offer to help me convert a Star Wars
setting or a Traveller setting into the Hero System? Because I want to
create my own sci-fi universe and don't care about playing in a Star
Wars setting or a Traveller setting? Is that enough reasons?
> What
> does Star Hero have that the others don't?
If it's done right, it has universality. Why is GURPS Space known
as an outstanding RPG book? (Origins award winner). Because of setting?
No...because it's a great book about how to run *A* sci-fi campaign...
not just some *specific* sci-fi campaign. If Star Hero does the same
thing for the Hero System as GURPS Space did for GURPS, I'll be happy
as a pig in mud.
> After all, GURPS pretty much has the generic one size fits all system thing
> sewn up right now, with enough products to crush anyone out there.
I own over 30 of those products, and you know what I use them for?
Hero System. Why? Because Hero System is better than GURPS IMO for
the kinds of games I like to run and play in.
Based on the argument that there should be no other RPGs that focus
on being universal because GURPS is universal and GURPS has it sewn up,
why are there any other fantasy RPGs? Doesn't xD&D have it sewn up?
Isn't making a *better* one a good enough reason to make one?
> And, one more time, OPEN GAMING LICENSE.
I can certainly see the attractiveness of this, at least for fans.
And they've done something similar to this with Fuzion.
Darrell Hiebert
Derek Hiemforth wrote:
> New players play whatever the
> people they begin gaming with play. If they learn from people who
> play D&D, they buy D&D. If they learn from people playing White
> Wolf's games, that's what they buy, etc. I think the game system
> has virtually nothing to do with it. Only experienced players know
> enough to shop for games based on the style of roleplaying and rules
> they promote.
On this note, I think most buyers will be players who started playing
after the BBB went OOP and old-timers who must have the most recent ed.
From what I've heard of 5, there are very few serious changes aside from
recosting aid and removing/fixing HA attack, which many of us are doing
already. Mostly better/more examples of powers.
Sidhain
> far from what I've seen (I own BESM 1st; Big Robots, Cool Starships; and
> Sailor Moon Resource and RPG), the powers that are available are rather
> vague and subjective. (take elemental control for instance).
2E has quite a bit more.
Should I repost my Quick and Dirty "How to do BESM Superheroes" Again?
Sidhain
> Has the 5th Edition of the Hero System taken longer than we wanted to put
> together? Yes. Are we upset by this? More than anyone else... after all, it's
> our baby that we created, *and* we make our living from it now. Will we rush
it
> out the door because we've been late? No, we're already late, so it had better
> be high quality when it comes out.
>
And you can avoid the flood of Supers games that came out over the last two
years and would ahve been competition s :)
> I think that this year will be an excellent one for both Champions and Hero
> System gamers. Stop by the discussion boards and chime in with what you'd like
> to see from us.
>
I wish you luck.
AND hope so.
Sidhain
"Mike McClain" <mikem...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A6A5E8E...@home.com...
>
> Blackberry wrote:
> <<I don't know Fuzion, but HERO combat probably does objectively take
> more time to
> resolve. Do you get a better panel-by-panel comic-book feel from HERO
> or
> Fuzion?
>
> I personally like HERO's combat and timing system. I think it works
> well and is
> internally consistent.
>
But it is slow, and when introducing people to the game for the first time it's
one of the best things to chuck for any possible house rule so combats last
minutes (with satisfactory results) instead of hours of real time.
Dr Nuncheon
Bryant Berggren <vo...@theramp.net> wrote:
>You could *always* publish game stats for free. Always. For any game.
>Yes, any game. For any purpose. No license necessary.
>
>The idea that you *need* a license to publish something that just uses
>a given game's rules (as opposed to excerpting from the rulebook,
>which is something else entirely) is one of the cruelest fictions ever
>to establish itself within the psyche of gamerdom.
It wasn't established without cause. A while back a little gaming company
tried to publish a little book called _The Primal Order_, which contained
stats for the Palladium RPG among others, and they got their butts hauled
into court by Mr. Simbeida's lawyers. The court costs nearly bankrupted
them.
Even if you can "legally" do it, the cost of doing so may be greater than
you anticipated. And if you're like most game companies and living on the
bitter edge, that just might be enough to push you over.
Detryxtyr
>>writeup with the player and ask *why* they have a particular power, its
>origin,
>>its physics, and its special effects. If you bought an Autofire NND EB just
>>because it's cool, sorry, but you don't get it. If you can explain it,
>sure.
>>I'll just put you up against more robots. :)
>>
>or, after a few uses, the usual villaisn get a clue, and suddenly they
>have a minimal amount of that specific defense bought through a focus
>(hey, villains get experience to!) and mister wonder bl;ast suddenly
>has a completely ineffective offensive power :)
>incrdbil
>
>
I always insist on having a copy of the character sheet. And if the Player
hasn't informed me of updates, they don't get them until I have a new character
sheet. I also always give the villians a small (25-50) bank of extra points to
cover anything they SHOULD have but I forgot to buy. Especially the Dr. Doom
class villians who ALWAYS have something up their armored sleeve. I'm SLOWLY
teaching my players that some villains are meant to escape to menace them
another day. I also have villains earne twice the XP that the entire party has
earned during the encounter. Villains cheat!
Detryxtyr
>CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
>high-CV, high-damage attack.
Rule of X was one of the selling points for me. MUCH easier to compare
characters. I've even developed a "Real World" rating sytem using the Rule of
X. That way, I can tell the heroes they are encountering a Class A villain and
they have a clue without knowing too much.
>I think it's helpful if the game system has some built-in methods to
>promote game balance. In hero system, I need to make sure there are no
>abusive powers, excessive stats, too-high skill levels, and to make sure
>the player's math works out right. The ingenuity of players in finding
>some new power which is at least a tad too useful never ceases to amaze
>me. It's a lot of extra work, IMHO, compared to what i have found in
>fuzion. Rule of X, plus simpler math, equals quicker character review.
>
>Quicker combat resolution, quicker character creation, real
>customizability through plug-ins, some built-in rules for game
>balance--it's not perfect, but in many ways it IS an improvement over
>hero system. You may have a different opinion, but I'm not the only
>person out there who feels this way. We're not idiots, we just took a
>look at the same set of facts with a different perspective and arrived
>at a different conclusion.
>
Hero vs. Fuzion is really no different than any other system vs. system debate.
It's ultimately childish and pointless.
Detryxtyr
>CNM. It's not that new an innovation. And I don't need fuzion for
>that.Adventurer's club had an article 16! years ago for rating combat
>ability.
And it hasn't been mentioned in ANY Hero product since. It's also fairly
cumbersome and was written for earlier versions of Champions. The Rule of X is
much simpler.
Detryxtyr
>character generation is quicker if it makes bland characters? of
>course, if you need a bit more detail to your powers, you have to
>follow the Fuzion guideline of converting the power from Hero.
><chuckle>
Oh geez, really difficult. Every plus or minus 1/4 in Hero means a plus or
minus 1 in FUZION. And after that, you simply divide the power by 5 to get the
FUZION points. Get out my Excel spreadsheet to make this calculation.
>nd Hero Games has also been in the toilet since Fuzion came out--it
>garnered negligible new gamers, and drove away a majority of it;s
>prior faithful (or they at least refused to follow in that
>direction)_\
They've been in trouble because they haven't put out much product in all this
time. Now that they are owned by Cybergames and have the freedom to work on
things (It's now a FULL time job), I'm sure they'll be getting plenty of
product out for BOTH systems.
Detryxtyr
>"Roadkill"(the only hero product I have never owned:), etc.
>I've seen other people criticize the Ultimate series, which I actually
>liked.
The Ultimate series was the best idea they ever had. Sort of like the Class
books put out for D&D.
incrdbil
>
>The Ultimate series was the best idea they ever had. Sort of like the Class
>books put out for D&D.
which were some of the worst books for D&D--unbalanced, unsupervised,
and nearly ruined 2e D&D till the skills and powers books came
along..I'm not to sure if the Ultimate series falls in the same
category, however
incrdbil
incrdbil
>>No--see the "Rule of X". You can have a high Cv, and low damage, a low
>>CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
>>high-CV, high-damage attack.
>
>Rule of X was one of the selling points for me. MUCH easier to compare
>characters. I've even developed a "Real World" rating sytem using the Rule of
>X. That way, I can tell the heroes they are encountering a Class A villain and
>they have a clue without knowing too much.
what, your world publishes top 10 villain scales with accuracy? Let
the Heroes find out the hard way.
incrdbil
incrdbil
>>note--quicker does nto mean better in all situations--who cares if the
>>character generation is quicker if it makes bland characters? of
>>course, if you need a bit more detail to your powers, you have to
>>follow the Fuzion guideline of converting the power from Hero.
>><chuckle>
>
>Oh geez, really difficult. Every plus or minus 1/4 in Hero means a plus or
>minus 1 in FUZION. And after that, you simply divide the power by 5 to get the
>FUZION points. Get out my Excel spreadsheet to make this calculation.
maybe you don't get what I'm aiming at. what use if a rules system
thats says "go use the rules system we were supposed to replace if you
want really detailed opowers"--a major fault in a system supposedly
meant to cover the superhero genre.
>
>
>They've been in trouble because they haven't put out much product in all this
>time. Now that they are owned by Cybergames and have the freedom to work on
>things (It's now a FULL time job), I'm sure they'll be getting plenty of
>product out for BOTH systems.
well, least they will get some small sales around here, once the 5th
edition stuff comes back.
incrdbil
Ben Brown
Jeffrey Knight <jeffk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Anyhoo, for those using BESM to run super hero games, how do you do it? So
>far from what I've seen (I own BESM 1st; Big Robots, Cool Starships; and
>Sailor Moon Resource and RPG), the powers that are available are rather
>make stuff up as you go along, or are there set power lists that you work
>off of?
When I just had those particular books, I knew it was possible, although
a lot of work to do BESM superheroes.
Once BESM 2nd edition came out, things got a lot easier. A lot more
options. Yes, you still have to use the vague and subjective things a
lot, and if you're looking for the same hard numbers that Champions gives
you, you're not always going to find them. On the other hand, there's
considerably less number crunching and combat runs a lot faster.
Stat-wise, the characters may not be as differentiated as Champions
characters (almost certainly not), but there are enough options that
superheroes can be done with only minor system tweaks.
-Ben
--
Blackberry
>
>incrdbil wrote:
>>
>blah blah blah. and that can't be done in fuzion?>
>
>CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
I presume that the "Rule of X" is not like the "Rule of 12" in GURPS then. What
is it?
Does this mean that Fuzion can't support someone like Mechanon or Dr. Destroyer,
who would have high-damage attacks with high CV?
Blackberry
>
>But it is slow, and when introducing people to the game for the first time it's
>one of the best things to chuck for any possible house rule so combats last
>minutes (with satisfactory results) instead of hours of real time.
Heavens, no. So much of the rest of the HERO system is geared to mesh well with
the combat and timing system that getting rid of it will screw with a lot of
other things too. What happens to the balance of REC, Reduced END Cost, END
Reserve, etc., when there are no more relationships between phases, rounds,
turns, and minutes?
Also, my battles never take hours, and my players grasp it right away (or
pretend to). Explain it well and you'll never have to worry about it.
Ben Brown
Tony Smith <nta...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Okay, since everybody else seems to be tossing out stuff. Here's my $0.02.
>Feel free to disagree.
I do disagree, and will state my reasons.
>
>And this brings me to HERO's second big mistake - NOT taking advantage of
>the fact that they had a generic universe by building on it! The best
>"purely" adventure module for 4th Edition IMHO was "Day of the Destroyer"
>(kudos Mr. Bennie if you read these forums). WHY? Because it took elements
>and characters from other "Classic" 4th Edition Projects (and even a few 3rd
>Edition ones) and referenced them in the story thus creating a distinctive
>Champions universe (something I have to praise C:NM for at least *trying* to
>do.) Why weren't more of these types of modules solicited/produced?
>
From a marketing perspective it may have been a big mistake. I don't
know. I rather liked the fact that the newer books (e.g. The Ultimate
Martial Artist) didn't have lots of campaign source material. I didn't
want campaign source material. I wanted good "how to do genre" material,
and "how to do this using the rules". Character examples are great, but
I much preferred the generic stuff. That was one of the appeals to me
for Champions. No constraints on my own damned world. Yeah, I know that
Hero published a lot of universe stuff, but it was the generic stuff that
interested me. Helped my worlds, rather than simply presenting me with
one.
>4th Big Mistake: Not playing up the "universal" angle of the system. Hero
>is just as flexible as GURPS (and in many ways more readily adaptable -
>after all you ONLY need *1* book for non-source material) and yet GURPS and
>Steve Jackson produced far more genre specific texts than HERO - which
>seemed to limit itself to just the "supers" genre (this might have something
>to do with ICE not wanting HERO products to compete with its Rolemaster
>system - but it still represents a fatal flaw in Hero's marketing.)
>
This is precisely what Hero 5th edition is doing--or at least what the
Hero folks say it will do. It's not going to be "Champions 5th" but
rather "Hero System 5th".
>5th Big Mistake: "The Sequel Syndrome" Ninja Hero was a success! Let's
>have Ultimate Martial Artist. Mystic Masters did pretty well - time for
>Ultimate Supermage! PSI (another Scott Heine book - suprised?) was well
>received - time for Ultimate Mentalist! High Tech Enemies spawned the
>possibility of Ultimate Super Tech Hero etc. etc. etc. These were all
>missed oppurtunities to develop OTHER angles - some of which actually did
>see the light of day with the Primus Sourcebook.
>
I'm not so sure this is "sequels". In the case of Ninja Hero, it's more
like a remake. They were designed to be genre books rather than campaign
books (like PSI and Mystic Masters).
>Instead of Ultimate Super Mage - what about doing something with the Circle
>(HERO referenced them enough times in 4th Edition and the 3rd edition books
>were hard to find an badly needed an update), DEMON, or even a sourcebook
>detailing a Comic Book "Hell" for the Champions universe.
>
I don't care about Circle or DEMON. I want some advice on how to do super
mages for my own worlds.
>Ultimate Martial Artist? Nyah! How about a Far East Heroes supplement ala
>Kingdom of Champions and Champions of the North? You can't tell me that
>these wouldn't have sold.
>
Again, I wanted rules and examples, not someone else's campaign.
>"When..." being the operative word, here. I know that there are some things
>that a company can't control - but let's face it, HERO screwed up big time
>promising what they couldn't deliver. In the future - don't say anything
>until the product is going out to the stores - that way at least you don't
>keep ticking off the target group.
>
I don't think anybody will argue that the delays have been a collossal
disaster for Hero Games's reputation. It's gotten into "I'll believe it
when I see it" land.
>Then why is it being advertised with a modified Champions' Universe?, Why is
>C:NM - which ignores 12+ years of established continuity - the new default
>Superhero setting for the Champions Universe? Also it seems to me that HERO
>should worry more about satisfying the core faithful (who did a damn good
>job of word of mouth advertising during the previous 4 editions) than trying
>to out-market juggernauts like Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf etc.
It's not like the Champions Universe was all that coherent. I do think
that creating what is essentially a new universe with all the same names
was a mistake, but heck, I don't buy stuff for universes anyway, so it
affects me almost none.
>If Fuzion is designed to be the new gneric - one rpg fits all genre's game-
>on the block then HERO is doing a really lousy job of promoting it as such.
>For all they're protestations that Dragonball Z or the other anime-apps of
>Fuzion are doing well -- my local game store isn't stocking them - but its
>selling out of BESM. And HERO isn't even trying to get anything out for
>non-anime Fuzion stuff: Horror, Sci-Fi etc. Not that I think anything could
>stand up to Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Armies, Delta Green etc, (Just look at
>WOTC's Dark Matter)
>
I don't know that it was ever touted as a "genreric system". It certainly
hasn't been released (except electronically) as such, but rather as a core
mechanic for various systems. It's not one I particularly like, but I'm
under no illusions as to what it is.
>I'm sure *you* would. However, the vast majority of people don't accept the
>logic of needing a completely separate rules system (Hero 5th) to make the
>one they want to play (Fuzion) work. And by that logic, the people that
>like HERO 5th don't want to have to buy C:NM 2end edition and it's Fuzion
>rules - just to get any game world related source material they might want
>for their C:NM game*. With all the financial problems that HERO has had
>over the last decade YOU of all people should realize that money doesn't
>grow on trees!
>
I agree here. It does seem a little weird. But then, as someone with no
particular interest in the Fuzion system and no interest at all in the
C:NM world, I'm unaffected.
>Minor tweaks which everyone who was interested in doing already implemented
>as house rules for their games. Taken with the terrible speed with which
>it's taken to produce this book hardly qualifies as a major accomplishment.
>Hero 4th did it better with a rapid succession of "must have" sourcebooks:
>Classic Enemies, Classic Organizations, Mind Games, Day of the Destroyer,
>etc. etc.
>
Not _everyone_. Anyway, it's nice to see these things codified.
>Based on your current efforts I predict it will be some time before any
>additional material will be available for my Champions game - so I'm not
>likely to switch to a new rules system from one that does provide me with
>source material.
If what you want is source material, more power to you. I want genre
guidelines and how-tos. Hero 5 is made for people like me.
And I'll get it.
-Ben (who is wondering if that scratching sound is Satan sharpening his
ice skates)
--
James Nicoll
Ben Brown <benb...@primenet.com> wrote:
BESM vs HERO
>Stat-wise, the characters may not be as differentiated as Champions
>characters (almost certainly not), but there are enough options that
>superheroes can be done with only minor system tweaks.
Well, in some ways [STR excepted], because of the way break
points work in HERO, one generally ran into very few values of the
various stats: as far as skills rolls go, there are only, what, about
half a dozen or so commonly adopted stat values people tend to use
in characters for HERO? I mean, yes, one can have 19 DEX but few people
seem to.
James Nicoll
Ben Brown
True enough. Actually, I was more talking about the number of stats.
Even if you count hit points and energy points as stats (corresponding to
stun/body and end) BESM still has less than a third the number of stats
as HERO. Speed and super-strength are attributes (more akin to powers),
so a one-to-one comparison probably isn't fair, but in general the
characters will be a tinge more grainy. Not that this is bad. In fact,
it probably emulates superhero stuff better to have slightly more
subjctive abilities.
-Ben
--
James Nicoll
D'oh! Sorry, misunderstood you.
Still, I always thought HERO had too many stats: PD and ED should
have been one stat, imo, with extra defenses towards only pd or ed being
a limitation on the defense bought plus COM is virtually without effect
in many campaigns and could be an aspect of PRE, I think. YMMV.
Now, BESM might have too few stats, although attributes can
make similarly statted characters different from each other [There
had to be an elegent way of saying that but I can't think of it],
and I'd have prefered if the dice range was a bit larger than from
36 possible outcomes. I worry a bit about stat-monsters as well.
In HERO, a 250 point character probably can't have all the skills
at grotesque levels but a 45 pt BESM skill monster could have
two 11s and a 12 plus at least 130 skill points [if the skill point
chart goes above the 6 level]. No skill purchased at less than a
35/36 chance of working, modifers ignored and with skill levels
and specializations, the impossible should be routine for a character
like this.
Still, in comics one sees characters do stuff like flick
narrow obstructions down gun barrels [Batman vs Deadshot at least
twice] and acrobatically move across a field of automatic weapons
fire [Girl One in Top Ten], so I guess it is in-genre.
James Nicoll
Tony Smith
"Ben Brown" <benb...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:94hpof$at7$1...@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net...
> I do disagree, and will state my reasons.
I respect your opinion, and thank you for keeping it civil.
> >And this brings me to HERO's second big mistake - NOT taking advantage
of
> >the fact that they had a generic universe by building on it! The best
> >"purely" adventure module for 4th Edition IMHO was "Day of the Destroyer"
> >(kudos Mr. Bennie if you read these forums). WHY? Because it took
elements
> >and characters from other "Classic" 4th Edition Projects (and even a few
3rd
> >Edition ones) and referenced them in the story thus creating a
distinctive
> >Champions universe (something I have to praise C:NM for at least *trying*
to
> >do.) Why weren't more of these types of modules solicited/produced?
> >
>
> From a marketing perspective it may have been a big mistake. I don't
> know. I rather liked the fact that the newer books (e.g. The Ultimate
> Martial Artist) didn't have lots of campaign source material. I didn't
> want campaign source material.
Okay by "campaign source material" do you believe that I'm referring to
strictly new champions organizations? If so then you're mistaken. GURPS:
Martial Arts (the best "sourcebook" for the Genre now that Ninja Hero is
OOP) had sections devoted to the standards of martial-arts genre including
details on how the various organizations like the Tongs or the Triads
operate, as well as a good bit of detail on how the various origins of each
style.
Information on how to incorporate these organizations into a 4-color, or
other kind of campaign would be extremely useful. Especially if they
included generic write-ups for a few staples of the genre.
> I wanted good "how to do genre" material,
> and "how to do this using the rules". Character examples are great, but
> I much preferred the generic stuff. That was one of the appeals to me
> for Champions. No constraints on my own damned world. Yeah, I know that
> Hero published a lot of universe stuff, but it was the generic stuff that
> interested me. Helped my worlds, rather than simply presenting me with
> one.
If you want totally non-stat related idea-sparkers for a superhero world -
(or any other world) the best ideas don't come *any* published rpg
supplement. Comics, film, television and books should spark all the ideas
you should need as a GM - at least they did for me.
IIRC, the so-called "generic stuff: like Ultimate Supermage did come with
alot of baggage as to how "magic" was supposed to work (ie-recommendations
for designing such powers) I would argue however that all of that stuff
merely repeated ad nauseum what had been said before in the main rulebook.
> >4th Big Mistake: Not playing up the "universal" angle of the system.
Hero
> >is just as flexible as GURPS (and in many ways more readily adaptable -
> >after all you ONLY need *1* book for non-source material) and yet GURPS
and
> >Steve Jackson produced far more genre specific texts than HERO - which
> >seemed to limit itself to just the "supers" genre (this might have
something
> >to do with ICE not wanting HERO products to compete with its Rolemaster
> >system - but it still represents a fatal flaw in Hero's marketing.)
> >
>
> This is precisely what Hero 5th edition is doing--or at least what the
> Hero folks say it will do. It's not going to be "Champions 5th" but
> rather "Hero System 5th".
But Hero 4th was a generic rpg as well. It even had a separate rulebook
from the Champions hardcover. (The only difference between the two books
was that the Champions (Big Blue Book) had the campaign stuff for running
superhero games and stats for the "Champions" characters, their base and
vehicles and various villains. Hero Games didn't exploit that facet then -
so why should I expect that they'll do that now?
In contrast to GURPS which also has sourcebooks for post-apocalyptic
settings, several sci-fi and fantasy settings, conspiracy stuff (BLack Ops
and Warehouse 23 are must haves if you're doing an X-Files type game.)
> >5th Big Mistake: "The Sequel Syndrome" Ninja Hero was a success! Let's
> >have Ultimate Martial Artist. Mystic Masters did pretty well - time for
> >Ultimate Supermage! PSI (another Scott Heine book - suprised?) was well
> >received - time for Ultimate Mentalist! High Tech Enemies spawned the
> >possibility of Ultimate Super Tech Hero etc. etc. etc. These were all
> >missed oppurtunities to develop OTHER angles - some of which actually did
> >see the light of day with the Primus Sourcebook.
> >
>
> I'm not so sure this is "sequels". In the case of Ninja Hero, it's more
> like a remake. They were designed to be genre books rather than campaign
> books (like PSI and Mystic Masters).
Ultimate Mentalist contained quite a bit of campiagn source material - most
of which I discarded because I didn't like its campaign-specific "alien"
origin. If you want to see a far better Psi-power sourcebook try GURPS:
Psionics instead.
However, before you think that I'm a GURPShead out to just blast HERO - I'm
not. I like the HERO system better than the base GURPS character system and
I think its far more universal in scope. However, GURPS and SJGames does
produce far better genre sourcebooks for me to use in my games.
Basically I use GURPS worldbooks for hiostorical trivia, ideas for campaign
settings, technical stuff (like how FTL works and biotech) and then convert
that information into HERO as needed.
However, I'd much rather see HERO doing those kinds of books so that I
wouldn't have to do all the conversions.
> >Instead of Ultimate Super Mage - what about doing something with the
Circle
> >(HERO referenced them enough times in 4th Edition and the 3rd edition
books
> >were hard to find an badly needed an update), DEMON, or even a sourcebook
> >detailing a Comic Book "Hell" for the Champions universe.
> >
>
> I don't care about Circle or DEMON. I want some advice on how to do super
> mages for my own worlds.
Yes but recognize that how magic works in your world may be different from
mine - and advice on how to create the different effects should be covered
in the main rulebook. I mean there are some pretty basic staples regarding
limitations and advantages (gestures, mystic amulets (foci) and
incantations) - beyond that you're treading into "campaign specific" areas
(what constitutes the villainous organizations, higher powers, history of
magic)
I personally don't need 120 some odd pages telling me how to configure an
energy blast in game mechaniocs so that it looks like mystic force rather
than solar rays. At best - a page and a half should do it. Hardly enough
to justify an entire source book.
> >Ultimate Martial Artist? Nyah! How about a Far East Heroes supplement
ala
> >Kingdom of Champions and Champions of the North? You can't tell me that
> >these wouldn't have sold.
> >
>
> Again, I wanted rules and examples, not someone else's campaign.
Gee I found alot more information in both of those books then you did. How
the various "real world" government agencies worked, major industries,
cities, local customs and slang (especially Kingdom of Champions), a bit of
background on Arthurian legend (a staple of any super hero game set in
Englands should at least mention this.)
You're telling me you wouldn't have found that useful?
> >Then why is it being advertised with a modified Champions' Universe?,
Why is
> >C:NM - which ignores 12+ years of established continuity - the new
default
> >Superhero setting for the Champions Universe? Also it seems to me that
HERO
> >should worry more about satisfying the core faithful (who did a damn good
> >job of word of mouth advertising during the previous 4 editions) than
trying
> >to out-market juggernauts like Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf etc.
>
> It's not like the Champions Universe was all that coherent. I do think
> that creating what is essentially a new universe with all the same names
> was a mistake, but heck, I don't buy stuff for universes anyway, so it
> affects me almost none.
Steps were in place following the release of 4th Edition which tried to
place everything in a single universe. For example the amount of references
to other products like Classic Enemies and Classic Organizations in books
like Day of the Destroyer, Champions in 3D etc. etc. This was later
abandoned.
> >If Fuzion is designed to be the new gneric - one rpg fits all genre's
game-
> >on the block then HERO is doing a really lousy job of promoting it as
such.
> >For all they're protestations that Dragonball Z or the other anime-apps
of
> >Fuzion are doing well -- my local game store isn't stocking them - but
its
> >selling out of BESM. And HERO isn't even trying to get anything out for
> >non-anime Fuzion stuff: Horror, Sci-Fi etc. Not that I think anything
could
> >stand up to Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Armies, Delta Green etc, (Just look
at
> >WOTC's Dark Matter)
> >
>
> I don't know that it was ever touted as a "genreric system". It certainly
> hasn't been released (except electronically) as such, but rather as a core
> mechanic for various systems. It's not one I particularly like, but I'm
> under no illusions as to what it is.
So what your saying is that Hero failed to get the idea out that their
system could be used generically because they didn't try using it in
anything more than a few otherwise forgettable settings.
> >I'm sure *you* would. However, the vast majority of people don't accept
the
> >logic of needing a completely separate rules system (Hero 5th) to make
the
> >one they want to play (Fuzion) work. And by that logic, the people that
> >like HERO 5th don't want to have to buy C:NM 2end edition and it's Fuzion
> >rules - just to get any game world related source material they might
want
> >for their C:NM game*. With all the financial problems that HERO has had
> >over the last decade YOU of all people should realize that money doesn't
> >grow on trees!
> >
>
> I agree here. It does seem a little weird. But then, as someone with no
> particular interest in the Fuzion system and no interest at all in the
> C:NM world, I'm unaffected.
Unless of course they decide that C:NM is the way to go (ala the one
universe extended timeline) and start placing Star Hero and Fantsy Hero in
the same universe (albeit different eras) as C:NM. Then there will be large
chunks of your generic sourcebooks you'll find unlikeable. This was the
plan at one time...
It may have since changed.
> >Minor tweaks which everyone who was interested in doing already
implemented
> >as house rules for their games. Taken with the terrible speed with which
> >it's taken to produce this book hardly qualifies as a major
accomplishment.
> >Hero 4th did it better with a rapid succession of "must have"
sourcebooks:
> >Classic Enemies, Classic Organizations, Mind Games, Day of the Destroyer,
> >etc. etc.
> >
>
> Not _everyone_. Anyway, it's nice to see these things codified.
Why? The GM has *always* been the final arbriter in any game I was ever in.
Rulebooks be damned.
> >Based on your current efforts I predict it will be some time before any
> >additional material will be available for my Champions game - so I'm not
> >likely to switch to a new rules system from one that does provide me with
> >source material.
>
> If what you want is source material, more power to you. I want genre
> guidelines and how-tos. Hero 5 is made for people like me.
Hero 5 is a basic rules system - there are no "genre" guides. Those are
supposed to come later with products like Star Hero and further development
of C:NM for superhero settings. etc.
The core rules aren't tied to a specific genre.
> And I'll get it.
HERO GAMES will be pleased, I'm sure.
Viktor Haag
> Also, I think my players grasp the idea of the HERO system
> pretty well, and frankly, I don't think I'd grasp the idea of
> an anime-based system working for conventional four-color
> superheroes with a slightly dark edge. Anime is for stuff
> that's totally over the top, even as far as comics are
> concerned. Yes, I know there is soap-opera style anime, but
> that's not what people mostly want to play.
It's a shame that BESM has the 'anime' tag on it, because it's
really just a 'heroic story generic roleplgaying game'. Our
group's playtest of the 2nd edition was running a 'conventional
four-color superhero adventure, with a slightly dark edge', and
it worked quite nicely thankyou.
Viktor
Viktor Haag
> Dragonball Z sells? You're kidding. My local stores have
> several copies which have been gathering dust since they came
> out and when asked say that while they might look at Champs
> 5th, they've given up on Fuzion, especially Champs NM since it
> doesn't sell.
Gaming tasts must vary wildly from region to region. For example,
sales of Hero Wars locally have not been all that good,
apparently; however, Greg Stafford insists that it's selling
quite well, and far better than his expectations.
I hate to be cynical, but it strikes me that a gaming company
saying in a public forum that a game is 'selling really well'
might be a little like the GM giving the coach an 'vote of utmost
confidence'...
> And let me see if I get this right. Fuzion players need to get
> Hero 5 to get detailed power creation rules? What the heck is
> the point then?
Because not everyone's group (or campaign) *needs* or wants the
detailed creation rules. That seems to be the argument anyway.
Viktor
Ben Brown
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Now, BESM might have too few stats, although attributes can
>make similarly statted characters different from each other [There
>had to be an elegent way of saying that but I can't think of it],
>and I'd have prefered if the dice range was a bit larger than from
>36 possible outcomes. I worry a bit about stat-monsters as well.
>In HERO, a 250 point character probably can't have all the skills
>at grotesque levels but a 45 pt BESM skill monster could have
>two 11s and a 12 plus at least 130 skill points [if the skill point
>chart goes above the 6 level]. No skill purchased at less than a
>35/36 chance of working, modifers ignored and with skill levels
>and specializations, the impossible should be routine for a character
>like this.
>
This is an important reason to keep a tight cap on the points. Give
a champions character 10 exp and there won't be a grave difference. Give
a BESM character three exp and, if done right, there can be a tremendous
difference. I suppose if you're having problems with skill monsters
either a) increase the cost of "highly skilled" or increase the costs of
skills themselves.
> Still, in comics one sees characters do stuff like flick
>narrow obstructions down gun barrels [Batman vs Deadshot at least
>twice] and acrobatically move across a field of automatic weapons
>fire [Girl One in Top Ten], so I guess it is in-genre.
>
Yep. And this stuff is notoriously hard to do in Champions.
-Ben
--
Blackberry
>
>[...]
>> Still, in comics one sees characters do stuff like flick
>>narrow obstructions down gun barrels [Batman vs Deadshot at least
>>twice] and acrobatically move across a field of automatic weapons
>>fire [Girl One in Top Ten], so I guess it is in-genre.
>>
>
>Yep. And this stuff is notoriously hard to do in Champions.
It's harder in Champions than in BESM? Let's take these one at a time.
1) BESM has specific rules for throwing small objects down gun barrels?
2) In Champions, it's the skill called "Acrobatics". I believe that, when you
use Acrobatics, you may say that you end up 1/2 of your normal Running movement
away from where you started. If that's "across a field of automatic weapons
fire", then there you are. BESM has specific rules for leaping acrobatically
across a field of automatic weapons fire?
sbe...@dowco.com
Scott (Heine's) a good author and a great guy. As for my stuff,
hopefully you ain't seen nothing yet. :-)
>>>And this brings me to HERO's second big mistake - NOT taking advantage of the fact that they had a generic universe by building on it! The best "purely" adventure module for 4th Edition IMHO was "Day of the Destroyer" (kudos Mr. Bennie if you read these forums). \
Thanks for the praise, Tony. Much appreciated.
Though I'd say that the best 4th edition adventure was "Shadows of the
City" myself.
As for the other issues you bring up, I'm a little too close to the
source to comment, except to say that if Monte's work pales a bit in
comparison to Rob's, you need to remember that Monte was working on
several lines at the time. All you have to do is to look at this little
thing called D&D 3e to see how incredibly talented this man can be.
Scott Bennie
Dr Nuncheon
Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:35:26 GMT, Mike wrote:
>>
>>incrdbil wrote:
>>>
>>blah blah blah. and that can't be done in fuzion?>
>>
>>No--see the "Rule of X". You can have a high Cv, and low damage, a low
>>CV and high damage, or a medium Cv and medium damage. You can't have a
>>high-CV, high-damage attack. [...]
>
>I presume that the "Rule of X" is not like the "Rule of 12" in GURPS then. What
>is it?
I don't remember the formula exactly, but it's a way for a GM to control
the combat aspects of a character with more finesse than in HERO. You
say, "the maximum value for X is (whatever)" and characters plug their
stats into the formula. This lets the clumsy brick hit for more damage
than the dextrous speedster, for example - which DC caps didn't really
accomplish since they only limited damage.
>Does this mean that Fuzion can't support someone like Mechanon or Dr. Destroyer,
>who would have high-damage attacks with high CV?
Not at all - they just have a higher 'X' than the PCs, and the system lets
you know it.
Dr Nuncheon
Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>On 22 Jan 2001 19:14:47 GMT, benb...@primenet.com wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>> Still, in comics one sees characters do stuff like flick
>>>narrow obstructions down gun barrels [Batman vs Deadshot at least
>>>twice] and acrobatically move across a field of automatic weapons
>>>fire [Girl One in Top Ten], so I guess it is in-genre.
>>>
>>
>>Yep. And this stuff is notoriously hard to do in Champions.
>use Acrobatics, you may say that you end up 1/2 of your normal Running movement
>away from where you started. If that's "across a field of automatic weapons
>fire", then there you are.
What if it's "on the other side of that wall"? Obviously some common
sense has to come into it somewhere. Acrobatics should not give the
abilities of Teleport, whether that is letting you move through walls or
letting you move through areas of suppression fire without being hit.
James Nicoll
Dr Nuncheon <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote:
>In article <94i69...@edrn.newsguy.com>,
>Blackberry <le...@NOnwlinkSPAM.com> wrote:
>>On 22 Jan 2001 19:14:47 GMT, benb...@primenet.com wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>> Still, in comics one sees characters do stuff like flick
>>>>narrow obstructions down gun barrels [Batman vs Deadshot at least
>>>>twice] and acrobatically move across a field of automatic weapons
>>>>fire [Girl One in Top Ten], so I guess it is in-genre.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yep. And this stuff is notoriously hard to do in Champions.
>>2) In Champions, it's the skill called "Acrobatics". I believe that, when you
>>use Acrobatics, you may say that you end up 1/2 of your normal Running movement
>>away from where you started. If that's "across a field of automatic weapons
>>fire", then there you are.
>
>What if it's "on the other side of that wall"? Obviously some common
>sense has to come into it somewhere. Acrobatics should not give the
>abilities of Teleport, whether that is letting you move through walls or
>letting you move through areas of suppression fire without being hit.
Well, unless someone bought teleport [only to places they could
move to acrobatically] or maybe desolid [ditto]. Which would be very
annoying to the people shooting at the acrobat if they didn't realise
that they could not touch the acrobat at all while in motion.
It's a little like building a brick by buying desolid, no
SFX, [only to avoid damage] defined as invulnerablity, and STR,
affects from desolid.
Detryxtyr
>>books put out for D&D.
>
>which were some of the worst books for D&D--unbalanced, unsupervised,
>and nearly ruined 2e D&D till the skills and powers books came
>along..I'm not to sure if the Ultimate series falls in the same
>category, however
>
>incrdbil
Unbalanced? A matter of opinion. But the Ultimate series did give plenty of
rules and ideas for the various character types. Ultimate Martial Artist did a
lot to expand on the ideas from Ninja Hero.
Detryxtyr
>thats says "go use the rules system we were supposed to replace if you
>want really detailed opowers"--a major fault in a system supposedly
>meant to cover the superhero genre.
Champions was the most detailed game for superpowers, but that is not
necessarily a good thing. I know a lot of players who simply used the rules to
Min/Max powers and abuse the rules. But that could be done with ANY system by
someone who knows the rules.
Detryxtyr
>the Heroes find out the hard way.
>
In my world, supers have been around since WWII. You think the authorities
wouldn't have come up with a rating system over the following 60 years? And
haven't you ever read a comic where the threat is refered to as a Class
whatever threat? Besides, all you have to say is "Dr. Fiendish is a class a
energy projector." What information can you get out of that? That he's an
energy projector who can probably do damage to someone who isn't careful or
doesn't have Class A defenses. And what makes you think that he hasn't
improved since his last defeat or has other powers?
Tony Smith
<sbe...@dowco.com> wrote in message news:3A6CB048...@dowco.com...
> >>Anything by Scott Bennie (Or Scott Heine for that matter) became a
required purchase in my book
>
> Scott (Heine's) a good author and a great guy. As for my stuff,
> hopefully you ain't seen nothing yet. :-)
AArghhh! Oh geez. As if waiting on Hero 5th wasn't bad enough, now I learn
that there's Scott Bennie stuff on the horizon.
>
> >>>And this brings me to HERO's second big mistake - NOT taking advantage
of the fact that they had a generic universe by building on it! The best
"purely" adventure module for 4th Edition IMHO was "Day of the Destroyer"
(kudos Mr. Bennie if you read these forums). \
>
> Thanks for the praise, Tony. Much appreciated.
>
> Though I'd say that the best 4th edition adventure was "Shadows of the
> City" myself.
I tend to separate Dark Champions from the more 4-color Champions related
stuff. "Day" is THE best 4-color module. Plus it begins with Dr.
Destroyer's "Greetings lesser ones...." [sent shivers down my gaming group
at the time. Bwa Ha Ha Ha]
> As for the other issues you bring up, I'm a little too close to the
> source to comment, except to say that if Monte's work pales a bit in
> comparison to Rob's, you need to remember that Monte was working on
> several lines at the time. All you have to do is to look at this little
> thing called D&D 3e to see how incredibly talented this man can be.
Absolutely, I play D&D 3E at the moment and LOVE the system. I wasn't
trying to say anything neccesarily bad about Cooke personally - Hi-Tech
Enemies, Viper (IIRC) and a number of other good supplements were produced
under his watch. Had he been able to divert more of his attention solely to
HERO, who knows where Hero could have gone. However, because he wasn't able
to devote more time to Champions - some of the supplements weren't as good
and thus he wasn't as good a follow-up to Bell (though through no fault of
his own.)
Blackberry
>
>>2) In Champions, it's the skill called "Acrobatics". I believe that, when you
>>use Acrobatics, you may say that you end up 1/2 of your normal Running movement
>>away from where you started. If that's "across a field of automatic weapons
>>fire", then there you are.
>
>What if it's "on the other side of that wall"? Obviously some common
>sense has to come into it somewhere. Acrobatics should not give the
>abilities of Teleport, whether that is letting you move through walls or
>letting you move through areas of suppression fire without being hit.
It does not let you teleport. I'd hae to double check the skill description
though. Are you arguing that BESM's version of dodging an area spray of bullets
*does* let you teleport through a wall and therefore it's better?
Dan Norder
> So where does that leave us? (Or more importantly, where does that
>leave Hero Games in their quest to determine what fans want to see?)
>You -- a dedicated Hero System gamer -- don't want Ultimate books and
>generic Genre books. I -- a dedicated Hero System gamer -- put those
>two kinds of books absolutely at the top of my gaming shopping list.
> Who should they try to please? :-)
Ummm.... Open Gaming License so we both get what we want? :-)
I certainly respect people who want ideas for games with absolutely no
characters and settings info... I have strong tendencies toward that, since any
setting or character I change anyway. But I find it easier to modify than
create completely from scratch. Mostly a question of time, really.
And the thing with the genre and ultimate lines I've seen is that they say, oh,
here's how you can do this, here's how you can do this, but they do it a way
that is either better handled by the core rules or in a way I find so
pointlessly backward that they have no value to me.
I do strongly believe that most the potential market (and, hence, money) out
there would be from people who want most of the work done for them. How else
can you explain the appeal of the World of Darkness or D&D? (OK, I know there
are other ways to explain it, but if we have to simplify things ridiculously, I
think that's a fair ridiculously simplified assessment.)
Dan "feeling a bit ridiculous myself right now" Norder
Dal Jeanis
Mike McClain wrote:
> Anyway, I still play a hero system campaign, and am routinely made aware
> of the flaws and limitations of hero system [such as] the killing attack stun
> lotto,
Which actually represents real-world gun wounds quite well - often
people wounded in firefights DON'T EVEN know they've injured
until someone points it out, or until they fall over from the blood loss.
Anyway, it's a game mechanic. If you want a a bell curve for your stun,
use a normal attack (with piercing etc). Or if you don't like it as a GM,
you can change the rule to use the average of 2d6, or whatever, as the
stun multiple. Problem solved.
Dal Jeanis
> points work in HERO, one generally ran into very few values of the
> various stats: as far as skills rolls go, there are only, what, about
> half a dozen or so commonly adopted stat values people tend to use
> in characters for HERO? I mean, yes, one can have 19 DEX but few people
> seem to.
>
Never underestimate the value of being one DEX higher than the min/maxers.
CON, BOD, STUN vary all over the place.
Of course, you seldom see anyone with a non-DEX characteristic
above 30 that doesn't end in 0 or 5, or occasionally 3 or 8. But
when you get up into those power levels, what kind of granularity
do you really need?
incrdbil
>>>The Ultimate series was the best idea they ever had. Sort of like the Class
>>>books put out for D&D.
>>
>>which were some of the worst books for D&D--unbalanced, unsupervised,
>>and nearly ruined 2e D&D till the skills and powers books came
>>along..I'm not to sure if the Ultimate series falls in the same
>>category, however
>>
>>incrdbil
>
>Unbalanced? A matter of opinion.
well, compare the kits from, say, the Clerics book to the Book of
Elves (bladesinger anyone) or the benefits fighters recieved--then
some books simply went wacky (the ranger that was a tree or other such
crap)..some of the boosk were fine (the Thieves book was good, esp)
incrdbil
incrdbil
>I don't remember the formula exactly, but it's a way for a GM to control
>the combat aspects of a character with more finesse than in HERO.
for any game is the GM--any rule can be danced around.
incrdbil
Detryxtyr
>Destroyer,
>who would have high-damage attacks with high CV?
Villains don't have to follow the Rule of X. That's why they're villains.
But seriously. The Rule of X is primarily for beginning heroes. As the
campaign progresses, X grows and new players can start with higher values.