Champions: Characteristics in Elemental Controls?
Richard Grady
In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
>
> How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
>characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
>of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
I allow it, provided it makes some sense, and is not too abusive.
Ie, superior str and con for a vampire.
>
> Also, what's the lamest Elemental Control you allow? One guy in my
>group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all his powers were
>through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not just buy
>Elemental Control: Superpowers?
No worse (perhaps) than multipower. It's still going to have OIF,
and if were out of hand I'd ixnay the idea.
Rich
--
Keith Rohrer
Richard Grady wrote:
>
> In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
>
> >
> > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
> >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
> >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
> I allow it, provided it makes some sense, and is not too abusive.
> Ie, superior str and con for a vampire.
sort
of theme; everything else in HERO is whatever you want it to be... I'd
be
wary if the character used the EC to buy Characteristics which are
figured
from another Characteristic in the EC; that's not quite as evil as
buying
+15/+0 Armor in one slot, +0/+15 Armor in another, but it's more
subtle...
> > Also, what's the lamest Elemental Control you allow? One guy in my
> >group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all his powers were
> >through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not just buy
> >Elemental Control: Superpowers?
> No worse (perhaps) than multipower. It's still going to have OIF,
> and if were out of hand I'd ixnay the idea.
I think what they had in mind when they made Elemental Controls was for
characters who needed a bunch of things (like a Multipower) that need
to work at once (unlike in a Multipower) to pull off their schtick and
still have points left over to spend on humanity. Take Icicle/Frostbite
for example; s/he could've had a force field, some Running, and a
Multipower, but they didn't feel like building the character that way,
so they didn't.
Personally, my design style leans towards Multipowers, sometimes with
pools
much larger than the active cost limit of the campaign, to make "power
stunts"
(e.g. ice Entangles from cold powers, concussive force blasts from
strong
people clapping their hands together, etc) reasonably cheap...
Keith (mentalists with Mind Scan need that outside their Multipower,
though, so they can maintain lock-on and use their other
Powers through the lock...)
--
Disclaimer: Do not taunt Happy Fun God.
Jason Youngberg
I think Characteristics should be allowed in Elemnetal Controls.
They are (in most respects) powers and should be treated as such.
The only precaution is the same as any other EC slot, do not let
it be too abusive. But if used in moderation it fits in with
the other powers. So far I can only see physical characteristics
being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
hard time being explained. Wheter we admit it or now, ECs are
used to cut down costs. Characteristics are usually very
expnisive so cheap ones (Com/End) should not be allowed.
Example
Cat Powers: Dex/Spd
Stone Body Powers: Str/Con/Body (PD/ED if you stretch it-armor
might be a better idea)
Chemical Powers: Str/Dex (steroids)
Robot Powers: Str/Dex/Con/Body/Spd (enhanced body-faster responces)
Jason Youngberg
Mary K. Kuhner
In article <4tavl5$i...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> youn...@cs.uiowa.edu (Jason Youngberg) writes:
>So far I can only see physical characteristics
>being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
>hard time being explained.
Could a character who is mentally enhanced by being linked to a computer
put Int in his Elemental Control?
--random question from a non-Hero player
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Ross TenEyck
mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
>In article <4tavl5$i...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> youn...@cs.uiowa.edu (Jason Youngberg) writes:
>>So far I can only see physical characteristics
>>being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
>>hard time being explained.
>Could a character who is mentally enhanced by being linked to a computer
>put Int in his Elemental Control?
As I read the rules: yes, if the GM lets him. It's sort of the
cardinal rule of Champions, even more so than some other games.
Elemental controls are basically free points as a reward for good
character conception; the restrictions in the rule book are there to
keep players with high fast-talk skills (the players, not the
characters) from abusing them too much. But if the GM feels that the
character is reasonable, and wants to let the player do it, then such is
her privilege.
--
============== http://weber.u.washington.edu/~teneyck/home.html ==============
Ross TenEyck MS Mech Eng | A crow pecks at the wind-tossed scrap of paper,
ten...@u.washington.edu | scavenging between the lines of an old letter;
Tsuki ni kawatte oshioki yo! | he hoards stories like flecks of quartz.
Steven Viscido
> > > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
> > >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
> > >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
I would say it is fine, as long as it fits in with the character
conception. For example, suppose you make up Venus, the goddess of love.
Putting a +20 COM in the slot of an EC-emotions or something would be
totally acceptable. Adding it to an EC-sound would obviously not.
In the old days, only powers that cost end to use were allowed in an EC or
a Multipower. Though they don't follow that rule anymore, if your players
are being abusive, you could force that on them.
> Elemental Controls are weird in that they are supposed to follow some
> sort
> of theme; everything else in HERO is whatever you want it to be...
Not true, actually. According to the rules, a Variable Power Pool also
has to be linked by a special effect, and as a GM, I also insist that
multipowers be linked by some sort of common theme as well. Basically,
power frameworks are supposed to be bonuses for people with good character
conceptions, not for free points. You have to make sure your players
realize this, and then enforce it rigorously.
>
> > > Also, what's the lamest Elemental Control you allow? One guy in my
> > >group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all his powers were
> > >through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not just buy
> > >Elemental Control: Superpowers?
OK, if it is "lame" then it should not be allowed at all. I see nothing
wrong with an EC-power suit. However, I would warn the player that he
could not then take the limitation OIF-power suit. Here's why: the
special effect of his EC is that it is a power suit. If he gets a bonus
for it (as in OIF), then it's like getting a bonus for your own special
effect! It's like having an EC-sonic powers, and then putting it on the
limitation -- all powers must be based on sound. I have had players who
have tried to pull off stuff like that. You just have to put your foot
down and say "no." Generally, if someone is trying to power game with
EC-power suit, forcing them to give up the OIF will lose them so many
points they will be prevented from powergaming.
>
> Personally, my design style leans towards Multipowers, sometimes with
> pools
> much larger than the active cost limit of the campaign, to make "power
> stunts"
> (e.g. ice Entangles from cold powers, concussive force blasts from
> strong
> people clapping their hands together, etc) reasonably cheap...
>
With an energy projector, often the most effective way to build the
character is to buy a multipower for the "attack pool," with the logic
that, for instance, your character fires laser/light bolts, and each slot
is a modified form of the bolt. So you could have a multipower with slots
such as EB, RKA, Flash, Drain:darkness, etc. Then, outside of that, you
buy an EC for the rest of your powers: movement (flight, etc), defenses
(force field, etc) and anything else that fits, but either does not belong
in the Multipower (because it is not derived from the same source as the
rest of the slots) or needs to be used at the same time. ECs are good for
making up powers that need to stay on all the time or go off at once, such
as force field, darkness, etc. However, don't let the idea of the
Multipower's basic effectiveness fool you. Remember, limitations that
apply only to a slot only affect the slot cost. In a 60-point multipower,
if you have a single slot on a +1 limitation, it only saves 3 points (6->3
in an ultra slot). In an EC, it would save a lot more. If your character
has a different (large) limitation on each slot, but none on the pool
cost, it is generally more efficient to buy it as an EC.
Another thing: lots of slots are a waste in multipower. As a general
rule, depending on limitations and advantages and whatnot, you are usually
better off buying a Variable power pool if you have more than 5 slots, as
long as you buy it as 0 phase to change powers and put it on the
limitation "only one power at a time", etc.
SV
Steven V. Viscido (803)-777-3936 or (803)-777-3942
Dept. of Biological Sciences, Univ. of S.C., Columbia, SC 29208
{http://tbone.biol.sc.edu/~steven} [ste...@tbone.biol.sc.edu]
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.960726...@tbone.biol.sc.edu>,
ste...@tbone.biol.sc.edu says...
>OK, if it is "lame" then it should not be allowed at all. I see nothing
>wrong with an EC-power suit. However, I would warn the player that he
>could not then take the limitation OIF-power suit. Here's why: the
>special effect of his EC is that it is a power suit. If he gets a bonus
>for it (as in OIF), then it's like getting a bonus for your own special
>effect! It's like having an EC-sonic powers, and then putting it on the
>limitation -- all powers must be based on sound. I have had players who
>have tried to pull off stuff like that. You just have to put your foot
>down and say "no." Generally, if someone is trying to power game with
>EC-power suit, forcing them to give up the OIF will lose them so many
>points they will be prevented from powergaming.
IMHO, I think you somewhat off base here.
OIF is perfectly alright for power armor. The EC- Power Armor limits the
types of powers that can be used. Things like density increase, life support
and armor are classic. Telepathy is much harder (unless its PSI armor, SHIELD
in marvel had some of that stuff- but it only added to existing powers...).
That matches your example of EC- sonic powers. The OIF is a limit on the
Power Armor itself, just like 'EC- sonic powers, OAF must use mega-phone'
would be a limit on the sonic EC.
The only difference is that Power Armor is almost always thought of as a
focus. It need not be.
Example: PSI Armor created by the mind of the wearer is not a focus- but can
have all the special effects of 'normal' power armor.
Example: Power Armor that the player never wants to do without- bought
without any focus limit. Its the same as any other powered armor, its just
that the GM can't run adventures that have the character without it (for some
reason he always has it on and never gets it taken away). It can still be
dispelled, suppress, drained, etc. A limit has be placed on the type of
adventures the GM can run however- no 'lets attack Tony Stark at the party'
stuff.
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
>>> In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
>>> >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's
made
>>> >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
IMHO, characteristics should only be allowed in a EC under certain
conditions. In general, they can't be a flat addition to the characteristic
that applies at all times. As a result, they are very hard to justify.
I could allow something like this- Strength: it doesn't add to figured
charcteristics (1/2 limit) and is based upon another condition like 'Only in
water (1/2 limit). Things like this could be used for a character like FISH
MAN, a rather lame dude- but some people like playing that type of character.
Even then, I might turn it down...
In general, its almost impossible to justify it. Multi-Power (and its sister
Power Pool) is really the only place you can buy characteristics (other than
characteristics themselves). Anything else is just a way of being not only
cheap, but also of creating hard to read character sheets.
Brian
John L. Jones II
Jason Youngberg wrote:
>
> I think Characteristics should be allowed in Elemnetal Controls.
> They are (in most respects) powers and should be treated as such.
> The only precaution is the same as any other EC slot, do not let
> the other powers. So far I can only see physical characteristics
> being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
> used to cut down costs. Characteristics are usually very
> expnisive so cheap ones (Com/End) should not be allowed.
I don't think mental powers are necessarily any harder to explain.
This is a superhero genre after all. To use your example, if steroids
can improve your str and dex, why couldn't some other drug improve your
IQ, EGO, etc.? How about an microchip implant that boosts all mental
capacities? I agree that EC's are used to cut down costs (why else would
you have one). Allowing Com and End doesn't seem like a big deal either,
considering the point breaks will be nominal at best.
--
John L. Jones II E-Mail: bi...@creighton.edu
"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the
level of thinking that created them."
Einstein (1897-1955)
Richard Grady
In a previous article, kwro...@uiuc.edu (Keith Rohrer) says:
>Richard Grady wrote:
>> In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
>>
>> >
>> > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
>> >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
>> >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
>> I allow it, provided it makes some sense, and is not too abusive.
>> Ie, superior str and con for a vampire.
>Elemental Controls are weird in that they are supposed to follow some
>sort
>of theme; everything else in HERO is whatever you want it to be... I'd
>be
>wary if the character used the EC to buy Characteristics which are
>figured
>from another Characteristic in the EC; that's not quite as evil as
>buying
>+15/+0 Armor in one slot, +0/+15 Armor in another, but it's more
>subtle...
Ya...I require bought characteristics to have "DOesn't affect figured"
At least, not if they want to buy them via EC.
>
>> > Also, what's the lamest Elemental Control you allow? One guy in my
>> >group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all his powers were
>> >through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not just buy
>> >Elemental Control: Superpowers?
>> No worse (perhaps) than multipower. It's still going to have OIF,
>> and if were out of hand I'd ixnay the idea.
>I think what they had in mind when they made Elemental Controls was for
>characters who needed a bunch of things (like a Multipower) that need
>to work at once (unlike in a Multipower) to pull off their schtick and
>still have points left over to spend on humanity. Take Icicle/Frostbite
>for example; s/he could've had a force field, some Running, and a
>Multipower, but they didn't feel like building the character that way,
>so they didn't.
Ya..I was thinking that I would allow EC:Suit, with OIF, if the
powers were ones you were going to be using together (ie, flight + EB).
Otherwise, I'd recommend Multipower too. Guess I wasn't all that clear. :)
>
>Personally, my design style leans towards Multipowers, sometimes with
>pools
>much larger than the active cost limit of the campaign, to make "power
>stunts"
>(e.g. ice Entangles from cold powers, concussive force blasts from
>strong
>people clapping their hands together, etc) reasonably cheap...
>
I tend toward EC myself, but I have characters who use several powers
at once. Costs lots of END though.
Rich
--
cdw...@athens.net
In article <4t8vqg$n...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
ga...@prairienet.org (Richard Grady) wrote:
>
>In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams)
says:
One guy in my
>>group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all
his powers were
>>through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not
just buy
>>Elemental Control: Superpowers?
>
> No worse (perhaps) than multipower. It's still
going to have OIF,
>and if were out of hand I'd ixnay the idea.
>
The difference is that, at least in theory, a character
would not be able have all of the powers in the multipower
on at the same time even though the character would want
them to do so. (One of the reason I don't like MP with
nothing but ultra-slot instant attacks in them). An
elemental control does not have this limitation, it is
supposed to "give the character a bonus for having a good
chaaracter conception and a closely connected set of
powers." (modifiied slightly from page 112 from the BBB) I
am usually very picky about ECs because they are getting a
cost break without any limitions for the break, so I make
the character work to get the bonus by having to be
prepared to justify any power he puts in it.
Chris
Richard Grady
In a previous article, ms...@ix.netcom.com (Brian and/or Terri Gleichman) says:
>>>> In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
>>>> >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's
>made
>>>> >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
>
>
>IMHO, characteristics should only be allowed in a EC under certain
>conditions. In general, they can't be a flat addition to the characteristic
>that applies at all times. As a result, they are very hard to justify.
Umm...if I recall correctly, HERO warns about letting people
put characteristics in any power pool. I know that the ones in Multipower
never add to figured characteristics.
Yes, I do agree that buying any characteristic via a PF should be
hard to justify.
>
>I could allow something like this- Strength: it doesn't add to figured
>charcteristics (1/2 limit) and is based upon another condition like 'Only in
>water (1/2 limit). Things like this could be used for a character like FISH
>MAN, a rather lame dude- but some people like playing that type of character.
>Even then, I might turn it down...
>
>In general, its almost impossible to justify it. Multi-Power (and its sister
>Power Pool) is really the only place you can buy characteristics (other than
>characteristics themselves). Anything else is just a way of being not only
>cheap, but also of creating hard to read character sheets.
Why are Multipower or Power Pool ok? I'd argue that they have the
same problems. Though a char. bought as an ultra slot in MP might be
less damaging, balance-wise.
Rich
--
Richard Grady
And this is a good thing. :) I agree, any power framework is
potentially damaging and should be carefully looked at. For example,
if the person in the book wanting werewolf powers wanted to buy (say)
increased Spd (since werewolves of myth were very fast), I'd be more
likely to grant it so long as a) the final SPD is still within reason and
b) they are also taking traditional werewolf weaknesses.
Say, you suppose a hero with EC: Body of Iron has a problem with
rusting?
Rich
--
Jered Moses
>being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
>hard time being explained.
While perhaps less common than physical characteristics, I've seen
several instances where mental attribs were purchased through EC's.
Some mentalist types might have Ego in theirs. I've seen an
"intelligence" EC (Int, speed-reading, lightning calculator, maybe
even SPD--this, of course, brings up the issue of talents/perks in
EC's...). And PRE is not uncommon in "undead"- or other monster-type
EC's. Mary also brings up the issue of computer-linked characters,
which might include cyborgs, androids, etc. It seems reasonable that
any of these might have mental chars purchased through EC as well.
--Kid Kibbitz
--
"From childhood's hour I have not been | |
As others were -- I have not seen | "Alone," a poem by | kidkibtz@expert.
As others saw -- I could not bring | Edgar Allen Poe | cc.purdue.edu
My passions from a common spring." | |
Richard Grady
In a previous article, ste...@tbone.biol.sc.edu (Steven Viscido) says:
>Not true, actually. According to the rules, a Variable Power Pool also
>has to be linked by a special effect, and as a GM, I also insist that
>multipowers be linked by some sort of common theme as well. Basically,
>power frameworks are supposed to be bonuses for people with good character
>conceptions, not for free points. You have to make sure your players
>realize this, and then enforce it rigorously.
Exactly.
>
>>
>> > > Also, what's the lamest Elemental Control you allow? One guy in my
>> > >group wanted Elemental Control:Power suit, because all his powers were
>> > >through a power suit. I found this to be lame... why not just buy
>> > >Elemental Control: Superpowers?
>
>OK, if it is "lame" then it should not be allowed at all. I see nothing
>wrong with an EC-power suit. However, I would warn the player that he
>could not then take the limitation OIF-power suit. Here's why: the
>special effect of his EC is that it is a power suit. If he gets a bonus
>for it (as in OIF), then it's like getting a bonus for your own special
I would allow OIF "Suit" Heck, if nothing else, HERO sets its
own precedent here, b/c lots of dudes in suits w/ multipower have OIF.
>effect! It's like having an EC-sonic powers, and then putting it on the
>limitation -- all powers must be based on sound. I have had players who
>have tried to pull off stuff like that. You just have to put your foot
>down and say "no." Generally, if someone is trying to power game with
>EC-power suit, forcing them to give up the OIF will lose them so many
>points they will be prevented from powergaming.
Not true. Powergamers always find a way. :) Seriously though,
I just put my foot down when/if the suit is getting too powerful.
Granted, power frameworks require closer GM scrutiny than "normal"
powers.
>
Rich
--
Petrov
>> > > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
>> > >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's
made
>> > >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution.
Most of the EC's I've seen described here I would allow (except for drugs,
superpowers, and a couple of others.. steroids OK). But although not
expressly stated, the EC works best when it also acts as a limitation
against other powers that would violate the theme.
Here's one that works and one that
doesn't
Arachnid-Human No-theme-man
EC - Arachnoid Powers EC - Ice Powers
-- SUPER STRENGTH -- Ice Shards
(Blast)
-- Danger Sense -- Sliding
(Running)
-- Clinging
also
Fire Cannon
also Entangle etc (web slingers) Telepathy
Density Increase
Shrinking
You get the picture.
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
In article <4tbnf2$a...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ga...@prairienet.org says...
>>In general, its almost impossible to justify it. Multi-Power (and its
>>sister Power Pool) is really the only place you can buy characteristics
>>(other than characteristics themselves). Anything else is just a way of
>>being not only cheap, but also of creating hard to read character sheets.
>
> Why are Multipower or Power Pool ok? I'd argue that they have the
>same problems. Though a char. bought as an ultra slot in MP might be
>less damaging, balance-wise.
>
Certain types of characters demand it and it should be allowed if they have
the proper limits.
Classic example: Iron Man's Weapon Sub-system (a Multi-power) has a bunch of
things they he can only use one at a time- repulsors (EB), laser (EK),
Uni-beam (flash), smoke launchers (darkness), Strength (no figured
characteristics -1/2) and a few other things. In this case the Strength slot
is another 'attack/damage' slot and that's the extent of it. A perfect use
IMHO.
Other short examples: The Silver Surfer is noted as being able to increase
his strength with the Power Cosmic (a power pool). There was a character in
the legion of super heros (DC comics) that could pick one power at a time -
strength, quickness, speed, resistent defenses, etc. Various drugs in a
multipower could be used to up one or more characteristics. etc. etc.
A note about this: I'm more interested in recreating characters out of comics
or the feel of characters in a comic game than play balance as defined by
Hero Games.
I have a campaign that has lasted since the 1st edition rules that had no
point limits- They characters are what they are. Interesting enough, they
game never had any play balance problems despite the fact that some
characters were 300 points and one or two other pushed over 700. Its all in
the style.
But I design all the characters (with player input) and move to rid myself of
any powergamers. It should also be noted that the game was played without
experience awards- The characters were the characters.
Other types of campaigns might have powergamer problems with my way of
dealing with characteristics in mp-pp. If they do- they need to move to
correct them one way or the other. They are many ways to solve the same
problem- disallow it, change the game style, take a more active hand in
character design, or remove the player.
Brian
Richard Grady
In a previous article, ms...@ix.netcom.com (Brian and/or Terri Gleichman) says:
>In article <4tbnf2$a...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ga...@prairienet.org says...
>
>>>In general, its almost impossible to justify it. Multi-Power (and its
>>>sister Power Pool) is really the only place you can buy characteristics
>>>(other than characteristics themselves). Anything else is just a way of
>>>being not only cheap, but also of creating hard to read character sheets.
>>
>> Why are Multipower or Power Pool ok? I'd argue that they have the
>>same problems. Though a char. bought as an ultra slot in MP might be
>>less damaging, balance-wise.
>>
>
>Certain types of characters demand it and it should be allowed if they have
>the proper limits.
>
>Classic example: Iron Man's Weapon Sub-system (a Multi-power) has a bunch of
>things they he can only use one at a time- repulsors (EB), laser (EK),
>Uni-beam (flash), smoke launchers (darkness), Strength (no figured
>characteristics -1/2) and a few other things. In this case the Strength slot
>is another 'attack/damage' slot and that's the extent of it. A perfect use
>IMHO.
Except that the STR is constantly available, which would either
be bought as a power unto itself (with OIF, and doesn't affect), or as
a slot in EC: Suit.
Now, if he had a STR of 20, and the suit could add (say) another 50,
provided he was doing nothing else, then Multipower is fine.
Personally, I think Iron Man might tend toward both EC and Multipower,
since he can fly and shoot at the same time.
>
Rich
--
Theala Sildorian
In article <4tb4fm$9...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu says...
>
>In article <4tavl5$i...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> youn...@cs.uiowa.edu (Jason
Youngberg) writes:
>>So far I can only see physical characteristics
>>being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
>>hard time being explained.
>
>put Int in his Elemental Control?
It all boils down to special effect. If you really wanted to, you could come
up with lots of excuses to put any Characteristic in an EC. You could make an
arguement that putting Characteristics in an EC gives an unfair advantage over
players who pay full cost for characteristics. It all boils down to balance.
You could easily build a character with a 40 point EC in characteristics, and
then buy another EC with other types of Powers (energy projector, speedster,
take your pick). The rules don't specifically disallow it. Strictly speaking,
it's perfectly legal. However, it has such a high potential for abuse that
many GMs shy away from it, and forbid it.
I have just such a character myself--some GMs let me play him, some don't.
When they don't, I just produce another version bought with more points, since
I'm really playing a character concept <grin>
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
In article <4tgknp$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ga...@prairienet.org says...
> Now, if he had a STR of 20, and the suit could add (say) another 50,
>provided he was doing nothing else, then Multipower is fine.
That's how I did it (Base 20 with plus 60 if I remember off the top of my
head).
>Personally, I think Iron Man might tend toward both EC and >Multipower,
>since he can fly and shoot at the same time.
Again, That's how I wrote it up. The EC had armor, life support, Density
Increase (a couple levels, always on), Flight and few more things. The
Multi-Power has all the weapon systems.
This is how I go with most hi-tech (in comic terms) power armor systems by
the way.
Brian
>Rich
>--
mtst...@dpcmail.dukepower.com
Steven Viscido wrote:
>
> > > > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
> > > >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
> > > >of iron, so he has an enormous constitution
To reply to the orignial question I would say NO! I have seen too much abuse
of this sort of thing to ever allow it in a game I run.
Another thing that has always bothered me about Elemental Controls is Linked
Powers! The rules read that all linked powers must be in the same control
slot. Ok this will prevent some turky from having power "a" be "force field"
and having slot "b" be "flight linked to force field," but is messy in its
own right! For example I am making a flame based energy projector and have
an Elemental Control that looks like this so far....
30 EC- Fire/Plasma Powers
30a Flight (20") 0 End
30b Force Field (20, 20) 0 End
....and I want to add a third slot that is an attack. I decide that I want
the flame attak to also blind living targets and for the flame damage to
be killing. So I start with....
RKA (3d6)
Flash (1d6) Armor Piercing (.5), Only vs Living (-.5), Linked to RKA (-.5)
....Combined this is 45 + 15 = 60 Active Points, exactly what is needed to fit
in the Control. But what is the cost of the Control Slot? Do you assume that
the RKA comes first and that the pool subtracts 30 points from its cost and
the Flash is calculated normally?
ie. 45-30 + 10*1.5/2 = 22.5 or 22 points
or do you do things propotionally, subtracting 75% of the EC points from the
RKA and the rest from the flash
ie. 45-22.5 + (10*1.5-7.5)/2 = 22.5 + 4.25 = 26.75 or 27 points.
or is it done some other way?
I have given up. In my games I just make all characters by linked powers
outside of Elemental controls all together, unless the WHOLE control
is linked to some other power bought outside of it.
> With an energy projector, often the most effective way to build the
> character is to buy a multipower for the "attack pool," with the logic
> that, for instance, your character fires laser/light bolts, and each slot
> is a modified form of the bolt. So you could have a multipower with slots
> such as EB, RKA, Flash, Drain:darkness, etc. Then, outside of that, you
> buy an EC for the rest of your powers: movement (flight, etc), defenses
> (force field, etc) and anything else that fits, but either does not belong
> in the Multipower (because it is not derived from the same source as the
> rest of the slots) or needs to be used at the same time. ECs are good for
> making up powers that need to stay on all the time or go off at once, such
> as force field, darkness, etc. However, don't let the idea of the
> Multipower's basic effectiveness fool you. Remember, limitations that
> apply only to a slot only affect the slot cost. In a 60-point multipower,
> if you have a single slot on a +1 limitation, it only saves 3 points (6->3
> in an ultra slot). In an EC, it would save a lot more. If your character
> has a different (large) limitation on each slot, but none on the pool
> cost, it is generally more efficient to buy it as an EC.
I agree with what you say here and usually run my games using this as a house
rule, but I do not think that the rules alctually read this way. In theory
it is possible to have a 30 point multipower pool and have a 3u slot with
something like "Energy Blast (12d6) *2 End (-.5), Beam (-.25), No Knockbak (-.25)
," but as a GM I almost always disallow it.
Another interesting side question here regarding the way you describe
mutlipower pools is that of how reduced indurance works. Reduced Endurance
is the only advantage that does not count towards a powers "Active Points"
according to the book I have. So could you have an "Energy Blast (10d6) 0 End (.5),
No Range (-.5)" in a 50 point multipower pool?
Sidewinder
mtst...@dpcmail.dukepower.com
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman wrote:
> >Personally, I think Iron Man might tend toward both EC and >Multipower,
> >since he can fly and shoot at the same time.
>
> Again, That's how I wrote it up. The EC had armor, life support, Density
^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Increase (a couple levels, always on), Flight and few more things. The
> Multi-Power has all the weapon systems.
>
> This is how I go with most hi-tech (in comic terms) power armor systems by
> the way.
You DO know that Life Support is a "Special" power, along with regeneration,
power defence, lack of weakness and knockback resistance and others, and, as
such, is NOT allowed in a EC or Multipower pool under normal circumstances.
Sidewinder
Steven Viscido
Ogre De Latoya wrote:
> Has anyone else had problems with
> the giving of experience in superheroic campagins? My big beef is that in
> my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
> be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
> didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
> using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
> the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
> know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
> chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
> catch 22.
Actually, I have never had a problem with giving too much experience.
In general, most of my adventures lasted 3-4 nights, and the average
amount of experience given to a well-role-played character was about 5
(sometimes 4, sometimes 5, depending on the situation). We only
averaged about 15 adventures per year, so that's about 75 x.p. per
year. That worked out just fine. It seems to me this is about as low
as you could go. After all, as charaters use skills and abilities, they
should improve them. Also, there are always annoying disadvantages to
buy off. By the end of 40 adventures or so, the one character who had
been around all of the time in my longest campaign, Starfire, had
amassed roughly 200 xp (he always got the maximum and bonuses for
excellent roleplaying), going from a 250-point character to a 456-point
character. His EB had gone from 8D6 to 12D6, along with his other
powers moving up. He went from having 1-2 general skills to having
about a dozen, most of them on 14 or less or better.
What is wrong with this? It reflects the growth of the character. When
Starfire started out, he had just gotten his powers in an accident in a
physics lab. He was a freshman in college (a physics major). As he
went through school (graduating right before the beginning of the last
adventure), he obtained skills in conjunction with taking classes. He
took a laser physics class and in that class developed a lens to focus
his light powers into an armor-piercing laser. He took an anthropology
class and bought Social Science (11 or less) skill. For a while he was
thought of as a villain (he was framed) and worked with some crooks who
taught him to be Streetwise and Taught him Disguise skill. He bought
off that annoying 2x stun from Darkness powers by working with the hero
Shadow Wolf in the danger room. And he developed a fireball/explosion
when he was experimented on by a group of aliens who were trying to
steal/duplicate his powers (the aliens blew up during the first
uncontrolled explosion).
This reflects the realities of growth. The PC had experiences which
changed his skills and abilities. X.P. are designed to reflect that.
What is so bad about the character getting more powerful, or more
diversified? One of the most satisfying adventures for the players was
running an actual mass breakout from stronghold. All of the villains
they had fought over the years broke out. And guess what? Since most
of them were designed to fight 8 or 9D6 heroes, and the good guys were
now 12D6 and had more diversity to their powers as well, the villains
who had fought the heroes almost to a stalemate two years ago got
whomped during the escape attempt. It showed the players just how much
their characters had grown, and made them feel very satisfied. Growth
and development of your character is one of the most pleasurable things
in an RPG. AFter all, we almost always start out with someone much
weaker than the characters in a comic or novel. The hope is that, with
time and experience, eventually our martial artist WILL be able to go
toe-to-toe with Wolverine, or our energy projector will be able to hold
off the Human Torch. I would highly recommend against taking that
aspect of the game away from your players.
SV
--
The GameMaster [ste...@tbone.biol.sc.edu] (Steve Viscido)
Ogre De Latoya
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman <ms...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
: But I design all the characters (with player input) and move to rid myself
of
: any powergamers. It should also be noted that the game was played without
: experience awards- The characters were the characters.
:
: Brian
:
Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but Brian's comment made me think of
something that had been bothering me.
Has anyone else had problems with
the giving of experience in superheroic campagins? My big beef is that in
my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
catch 22.
This problem is amplified in heroic campaigns where the starting cost are
lower and the gains reaped by experience are much greater.
--
Ogre De Latoya (jmb...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu)
-=XMarksthePedwalkPressurehedOneiroidePsychosisLeaetherstripProjectPitchfork=-
|!0@@ Be @@@@@@0000!!!|||::=- Live -=::|||!!!0000@@ Play @@0!|
|!0@ Happy @@@@@@000!!!!|||::=- Long -=::|||!!!!000@@ Champions @0!|
-=WumpscutYehtMaeKevorkianDeathCycleNeotekFadGadgitPsychopompsDinWeirdAlTool=-
Jason Youngberg
One of the problems, apart from game balance, is that the active points
necessary for a normal EC is rather high. Cheap stats (esp INT) inside
an EC would probably mess up the character concept. A 20 INT hero is
much easier to play than one with 50 INT. On the other hand physical
stats do not add difficulty for the player. But on the whole I feel they
should be allowed just as long as it is not very abusive.
I remember in one of the Dark champions books about buying equiment. A
'standard' vigilante pack would include over 100pts of items purchaced
sperately and s/he would STILL be outclassed by a starting super. The
solution was an OAF multipower with each slot being a different itme.
In a way that is not too much different from the current debate. Both
deal with a cheap way to buy expensive abilities. Since 'natural'
abilities would be harder to justify in a multipower (where they would
work one at a time), an EC is used.
Jason Youngberg
PS Actually one of my characters DOES have a stat multipower.
Multipower Strength Channeling 20pts (minimum)
u-+20 STR
u-+2 SPD
I try to justify this by saying that the hero is so strong he can direct
it to either raw strength or forcing his limbs to move faster.
Patrick Lapointe
Ogre De Latoya (jmb...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu) wrote:
> didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
> ...chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
>
> This problem is amplified in heroic campaigns where the starting cost are
> lower and the gains reaped by experience are much greater.
>
Well, it is a catch 22 and managing that catch an issue for any GM. Does the
world grow with the players? How to keep up? How to change?
Often, the best way is to hand out the XPs, but waiting for the right time
for players to use them. This is what they call the "Radiation Accident".
Second, a change needs not be strictly in power. I have often encouraged
players to lower/modify their disadvantages or remove limitations on power
rather than letting them invest in sheer power levels or dice.
If a villain has used previously a weakness in the character's powers, PCs
are suddenly encouraged to earn the point to lessen the negative impact on
their characters. Remeber that if a villain is successful once using a
special technique against a PC (taking advantage of a limitation or
disadvantage), why should he not use it again? And perhaps with greater
impact, the villain having leaned from his earlier experience?
I caught/taught a player the lesson when he approached adding three dice to
his blast. A recurring villain had used a magnetic field to disrupt his
powers a first time. The second time, he recruited a paranormal villain who
-- surprise!!! -- was based on electromagnetic power. The team defeated the
villains, but the one PC was severly trounced, his FF and EB not working at
all when caught in the magnetic entangle. His weakness was still present and
that this extra power was for naught.
The player was very happy a few months later when he met these villains
again as he defeated them single-handedly. The major villain's jaw dropped a
mile when his magnetic FF (only 5/5) no longer worked and his sidekick
having little impact on that player. Off to prison... TADA.
Pat
a.k.a. a Modest Man from Mandrake
Sir Quarex, constant enigma
: : any powergamers. It should also be noted that the game was played without
: the giving of experience in superheroic campagins? My big beef is that in
: my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
: be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
: didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
: using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
: the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
: know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
: chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
: This problem is amplified in heroic campaigns where the starting cost are
: lower and the gains reaped by experience are much greater.
Well, I think you should give your poor players their overdue experience.
I mean, could it possibly be any more heartbreaking than to watch a poor
supercharged mutant fly not be able to buy the knockback resistance he's
been needing ever since his character was created two years ago?
Not that I'm in this campaign or anything. I'm just hypothesizing based
on his .signature that someone named Quarex would be playing a big fly in
his campaign. Total off-the-wall guess, really. :)
No, really, I'm not in his campaign.
Okay, you're right, I am. Damn.
Quarex
--
[ amh...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu | That's right, the word ODIN is in my address!! ]
Great Bands: Overkill/Amorphis/PetShopBoys/DepecheMode/ManOwaR/SpinalTap/Devo!
["Love does not conquer all, and I'm screaming because of you."-TypeONegative]
Fun Stuff: AD&D/Champions/irc/Denny's | Misogynist Dragon of the -=] UDIC [=-
[Taboo fifth .sig line: Member of International Thespian Society, Troupe #613]
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
In article <31FCCB...@dpcmail.dukepower.com>,
mtst...@dpcmail.dukepower.com says...
Yep. Know that.
And I ruled this a special circumstance as the life support is so closely
tied to the concept of full coverage armor. Other GM will need to make up
their own minds.
Paul & Rebecca Hutchison
This way of increasing characteristics is NOT legal. You cannot increase
characteristics in any type of Power Framework. You can, however, use
the AID power in any Framework. Usually, characteristics as powers can
only be used in certain circumstances (i.e. with a focus, etc ) See
Characteristics in the Powers section of your rulebook
pet...@usa.pipeline.com
On Jul 29, 1996 17:17:20 in article <Re: Experience in Superheroic
Campaigns (Was Re: Champions:)>, 'plap...@gmgate.vircom.com (Patrick
Lapointe)' wrote:
[SNIP.. hack hack hack]
>players to lower/modify their disadvantages or remove limitations on power
>rather than letting them invest in sheer power levels or dice.
>
[chop]
>Pat
>a.k.a. a Modest Man from Mandrake
The GM has a great deal of control in this area. If done politically, you
can alter
the players disadvantages or eliminate them. If your "Aunt May" DNPC meets
a
charming gentleman who convinces her to experiment with mental powers, you
have just
changed her from being a totally puny DNPC to a less puny DNPC. (Invest
points here)
If she gets killed off (by her charming male-friend/psychic vampire?) there
are even
more points to go...
Another way to control the spending of the points is to alter your
surroundings and
require the players to invest their points in adaptation. If you send your
characters to france (or some other country half of which speaks something
like
french) you might invest a point or two so that they can learn french.
If you decide to play around with something like Champions in 3-D, you can
give them
the option of learning to control the flux (anyone remember TimeTripper?)
and
determine where they are going to wind up. A Failed control would send
them to
a worse area, a successful roll would send them to a less dangerous (more
fun?) area.
The point of all this is that the GM can create things for the players to
spend
points on other than beefing up their powers.
Robert Bain
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman (ms...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Other short examples: The Silver Surfer is noted as being able to increase
: his strength with the Power Cosmic (a power pool). There was a character in
: the legion of super heros (DC comics) that could pick one power at a time -
: strength, quickness, speed, resistent defenses, etc.
His name was 'Ultra Boy'. Is this where the 'ultra' in Multipowers
comes from?
--
-- "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
-- are filled with a passionate intensity." --> W. B. Yeats, on Usenet.
--- ObCriminal Speech: FUCK THE CDA!
---Arb...@soho.ios.com
Nameless Solforge
> In article <31FDA6...@mo.net>, pghr...@mo.net says...
Erm, to quote.
Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework never add
to figured characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought
within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM.
Which kind of axes the illegality argument. Although using them in an
Elemental Control still requires permission.
Nameless Solforge du Kirstine MH /( )\_/( )\
mhenry @ax.com @windrunner.com Grey Ranger /' \ ( o o ) / `\
< \_)\./(_/ >
Anarchy-X BBS Everdark LPMud \ / \ /
619-264-8685 anarchyx.com 204.181.38.20 3000 `\_( )_/'
-=================================== a wicked creation * ====oooO===Oooo=====-
"If kisses could kill, that one would've flattened several small towns."
Joe Claffey Jr.
In article <31FDA6...@mo.net>, Paul & Rebecca Hutchison
<pghr...@mo.net> wrote:
>This way of increasing characteristics is NOT legal. You cannot increase
>characteristics in any type of Power Framework. You can, however, use
>the AID power in any Framework. Usually, characteristics as powers can
>only be used in certain circumstances (i.e. with a focus, etc ) See
>Characteristics in the Powers section of your rulebook
Characteristics can be placed in Multipowers. They automatically have,
"Does not affect figured characteristics" as a -0 Limitation.
--
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
j...@nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
>characteristics in any type of Power Framework. You can, however, use
>the AID power in any Framework. Usually, characteristics as powers can
>only be used in certain circumstances (i.e. with a focus, etc ) See
>Characteristics in the Powers section of your rulebook
I'm aware of this and cheerfully ignore it when I want to :)
There are many cases where a random aid to characteristics is nowhere near
the effect I'm trying to get. In fact, its a rare instance that a random aid
fits all at- hence its only seen in my game in its healing role.
Again, its a style issue. Its also a hold over from the 1st edition long
before the aid power came along.
Restricting characteristic increases to Aid follows two 'Hero Games'
conditions- Restricting non-special powers to power frameworks and always
paying the higher cost if there are two ways of doing things.
I reject both conditions (as the rules say I have the right to) when I can't
get the require result in the design of the character.
I've had no play balance problems in the least. Of course that's most likely
due to the style of the campaigns I'm in than the favor of rules I'm using
(although a few of them help I think).
Daniel Pongratz
Nameless Solforge wrote:
> Erm, to quote.
> Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework never add
> to figured characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought
> within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM.
> Which kind of axes the illegality argument. Although using them in an
> Elemental Control still requires permission.
Where is this quote from. I know that the rules say that Characteristics bought
in a Multipower do not affect figured characteristics (for simplicity if for
anything else) but I know of no rule saying Elemental Controls are the same.
Please tell me, since I am against putting CHAs in ECs anyway, and would like
official rules to back me up.
--
Dan Pongratz <dp...@nis.lanl.gov> http://nis-www.lanl.gov/
NIS - 2 {505-665-0019} {MS D436}
"[insert humorous quotation here]"
Eric Stevenson
Jason Youngberg (youn...@cs.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: I think Characteristics should be allowed in Elemnetal Controls.
: They are (in most respects) powers and should be treated as such.
: The only precaution is the same as any other EC slot, do not let
: it be too abusive. But if used in moderation it fits in with
: the other powers. So far I can only see physical characteristics
: being in Elemental Controls, mental (Int, Ego, Pre) have a real
???
What about the innumerable super-geniuses and super-psychics in comics?
It seems to me that there should be some restrictions on putting
characteristics in ECs, as it otherwise becomes a matter of choosing a
character concept that jams in as much as possible (Brickman gets Str,
Con, Body, Armor, and Density Increase due to stony physique). I recall
seeing someone mention allowing a max of one characteristic in an EC.
Perhaps this could be expanded (if neccessary) to make ECs either only
for powers (most of the time), or only for characteristics
(occasionally). This way you can have Energy-Man or
Super-Soldier-Serum-Man, but not both at once.
Brian and/or Terri Gleichman
In article <31FE97AD...@nis.lanl.gov>, dp...@nis.lanl.gov says...
>
>Nameless Solforge wrote:
>
>> Erm, to quote.
>> Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework never add
>> to figured characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought
>> within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM.
>
>> Which kind of axes the illegality argument. Although using them in an
>> Elemental Control still requires permission.
>
>Where is this quote from. I know that the rules say that Characteristics
bought
>in a Multipower do not affect figured characteristics (for simplicity if for
>anything else) but I know of no rule saying Elemental Controls are the same.
>Please tell me, since I am against putting CHAs in ECs anyway, and would
like
>official rules to back me up.
The official rules don't put any limits on characteristics in power
frameworks except the Multipower limit on figured characteristics. In fact
they say that characteristics can be treated as powers in this reguard.
However, Legal and reasonable are two different things. Anything is subject
as to how the GM wants to handle it. Entire powers or concepts can be removed
from use. Hero Games even suggests doing so by highlighting certain dangerous
powers for GM review as well as making other optional suggestions. If you
don't want characteristics in EC (like me), don't allow them- or make certain
limits required on them.
By the way, why is 'charactistic doesn't affect figured' a 0 limit when in a
multi-power, but is a 1/2 limit in a Power Pool? They're very close sisters
in concept- a PP is really just a big multi-power. Doesn't make sense- the
game effect is nearly the same. Maybe I can't see the problem because I've
never had it...
Brian
Richard Grady
In a previous article, pghr...@mo.net (Paul & Rebecca Hutchison) says:
>
>This way of increasing characteristics is NOT legal. You cannot increase
>characteristics in any type of Power Framework. You can, however, use
>the AID power in any Framework. Usually, characteristics as powers can
>only be used in certain circumstances (i.e. with a focus, etc ) See
>Characteristics in the Powers section of your rulebook
>
Actually, Champs says :Characteristics may be purchased with
POwer LImitations, Power Advantages, and Power Frameworks, just like Powers.
It goes on to recommend that they can only be purchased through power
frameworks with the permission of the GM.
My main thought would be: how much will this unbalance the
game? And, does this make sense according to character background?
Rich
--
Smokestack Jones
:>> In a previous article, th...@fiber.net (Thane Williams) says:
:>>
:>> >
:>> > How many Champions GM's out there allow/prohibit players to buy
:>> >characteristics through an Elemental Control? Example: My character's made
:>> I allow it, provided it makes some sense, and is not too abusive.
:>> Ie, superior str and con for a vampire.
:>Elemental Controls are weird in that they are supposed to follow some
:>sort
:>of theme; everything else in HERO is whatever you want it to be... I'd
:>be
:>wary if the character used the EC to buy Characteristics which are
:>figured
:>from another Characteristic in the EC; that's not quite as evil as
:>buying
:>+15/+0 Armor in one slot, +0/+15 Armor in another, but it's more
:>subtle...
Smokestack here,
Oh definitely, provided they can give me a
reasonable justification as to why they're there. Some I can think of off
the bat:
1. A character who has enhanced characteristics ONLY in hero form (I know,
that's easy to do with any character, but I tend to be VERY picky about
this one. Otherwise, you might as well take Multiform).
2. A powered armor suit (then I would require them to take a focus
limitation; OIF is usually sufficient, but I can deal with someone who
wants to buy an OIF power suit...heh heh heh...)
I also think that buying Characteristics as powers makes it really easy to
seperate the character from the Power Armor. Instead of making a
super-fighting machine who just HAPPENS to have a name and profession, I
can make a PERSON who happens to be a super.
Light's green. Gotta go...
-Smokestack Jones
On the Road
--
Get yer kicks on Virtual 66...
balrog
In article <4thn4u$h...@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>, jmb...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu
(Ogre De Latoya) wrote:
> Brian and/or Terri Gleichman <ms...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> : But I design all the characters (with player input) and move to rid myself
> of
> : any powergamers. It should also be noted that the game was played without
> : experience awards- The characters were the characters.
> <SNIP>
> :
> : Brian
> :
>
> Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but Brian's comment made me think of
> something that had been bothering me.
>
> Has anyone else had problems with
> the giving of experience in superheroic campagins? My big beef is that in
> my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
> be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
> didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
> using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
> the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
> know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
> chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
> catch 22.
>
> This problem is amplified in heroic campaigns where the starting cost are
> lower and the gains reaped by experience are much greater.
>
Man i'v got a sultuition it's derty and under handed but it works you can
make it more expenciv to gain skilles and powers or a radiation acedent
can reduc or destroy thare powers maby nplay musical chairs with thare
caricter's minds so thay never get used to a set of powers so thay can't
use them efectivly, if the players arent that atached to thare caricters
you can find a reason to reter them like give them all the xp thay hav
lost out becase of that perid of no xp and tell them thay hav esended to
god hood and most rage vvs such aponints then inform them thay wer puter
goods, Haw would your players fair agenst a caricter like the silver
serfer.
--
Mars fire ignite.
HEA! (chop to head).
Michael Schloss
: Has anyone else had problems with
: my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
: be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
: didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
: using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
: the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
: know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
: chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
: catch 22.
I prefer how Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes deals with this.
Both DC's Hero Points and Marvel's Karma work similarly. They can be
used to either influence die rolls, to get the extra 'luck' just when you
need it, or to gain in experience. As a result, there is a bit of a
trade-off. ie. "Do I spend my Karma to aid me in fighting Evil-Man, or
do I horde it to gain advancement?" You'd think that powergamers might
just try to horde their points, but I havn't found this to be the case.
Especially when potent villains also have Karma to spend.
One other thing. In both MSH and DCH its a _lot_ more expensive
to increase your powers after your character is created.
This type of approach could probably be adapted to Champions with
a little work.
Martin Terman
In article <4thn4u$h...@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>, jmb...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu (Ogre De Latoya) writes:
>Has anyone else had problems with
>the giving of experience in superheroic campagins? My big beef is that in
>my two year hero campagn, with characters starting at 250 pts, they sould
>be at least 354 pts. Granted, that's if we played all 104 weeks, which we
>didn't. But that also assumes one XP per session, which would be low
>using the advice given in the BBB. I just don't like having the power of
>the PCs go up by 1.5 times, so I stopped giving experince (I know, I
>know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!" :). I also don't like denying the player's the
>chance to improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
>catch 22.
One thing to do is to allow players to spend their experience points
any way they like to increase skills and possibly affect their non-power
disads (such as DNPC). If they want their powers to go up, they'll have
to hand those expereince points over to the GM, and the GM has the
discretion on how they'll be spent. The player may make requests of the
GM and may allow simple logical extensions of the power. Or the GM can
have a radiation accident strike the character.
Unlimited improvement of skills can be quite dangerous, but its also a
lot more reasonable and in genre with the comic books. With a lot of
characters, they haven't gotten all that more powerful, but they've
gotten a lot more experience and are a lot trickier to take out.
Take one of the player's old villains, and give them experience points
to spend on martial art manuvers, combat skill levels and the like.
They'll be a lot more fun to try to take out.
--
Martin Terman, Therapy and Behavioral Counseling for Troubled Computers.
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
email: mfte...@access.digex.com home page: http://access.digex.net/~mfterman/
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
S.D. Anderson
Ogre wrote:
> just don't like having the power of the PCs go up by 1.5 times,
>so I stopped giving experince (I know, I know, "BAD OGRE, BAD!"
>:). I also don't like denying the player's the chance to
>improve their character's skills and powers. Seems to be a
>catch 22.
This applies throughout gaming, a year plus of play would
raise a 1st level V&V character to about 14th level, for example.
One possibility is to charge the PCs a stiff fee for "quick"
advancement. If a character wants to pick up a skill or raise a
stat between adventures instead of going to a gym, taking a class
or whatever, put a 5 point charge on the cost. ie if Scarlet
Danzer's player wants to raise her DX from 24 to 25, he has her
pay 3 pts plus a 5 pt quick advance fee. Poof! Her dex score is
now higher after an hour's workout! And a lot of xp goes bye
bye.
--
The Black Queen chants the Funeral March
The cracked brass bells will ring
To summon back the Fire Witch
To the Court of the Crimson King Pete Sinfield
Legion
Hey, a "KARMA" pt. system would be easy in a HERO game and you, as a
Game Master, could easily implement it. You may also like my usual
approach......
Give the experience but limit the spending, if a hero is weight
training let them increase Strength,Con,Body,PD,END,Etc.....
NOT their PRE drain or flight.
Experience and training should dictate how the points are spent, and
it should make logical sense. In this situation no hero raises his
energy blast to ungodly levels unless he gives you a DAMN good reason.
This also balances/validifies focii......THEY CAN be upgraded with
experience, but at what cost.
I mostly apply this to Fantasy HERO campaigns to limit which spell
colleges are chosen and to make sure only one or two PC's end up with
the same or similar skills. You can't learn some skills without a
teacher (or maybe in your game it would cost more!), and after character
creation almost NO talents can be bought, those are inherent or their
not!
If this interests you you may also consider my character development
system. If I start a game with PC's in the 75pt + 50 in Disadv range I
only start them with 50 of the base pts and 25 in Disadv. During the
course of the first sessions the PC's must train and find appropriate
teachers to learn what they want to know. At the end of these sessions I
allow them to have their experience earned Plus 10 pts per session to
spend on what they are logically developing. I also "Assign" their
remaining disadvantages based on events during these first sessions.
My players love it and it really makes my games easy for me to run. No
whacked out party trashing assassin characters with 10d6RKA and an
aversion to men in capes in my games!
Unless I want them there B>)
Eric Stevenson
Michael Schloss (bk...@torfree.net) wrote:
: I prefer how Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes deals with this.
: used to either influence die rolls, to get the extra 'luck' just when you
: need it, or to gain in experience. As a result, there is a bit of a
: trade-off. ie. "Do I spend my Karma to aid me in fighting Evil-Man, or
: do I horde it to gain advancement?" You'd think that powergamers might
: just try to horde their points, but I havn't found this to be the case.
: Especially when potent villains also have Karma to spend.
: One other thing. In both MSH and DCH its a _lot_ more expensive
: to increase your powers after your character is created.
: This type of approach could probably be adapted to Champions with
: a little work.
One feature of MSH karma would be easy to do. One way to use karma was to
improve a roll. By buying overall levels with one (or more) charge and
"charges do not recover," you could get an expendable bonus to a roll. To
make advancement harder, you could apply point caps (how original) or
maybe set up "super characteristic maxima," basically like normal
characteristic maxima but for other powers too. An energy blast might
double in cost above 50 points, and perhaps go to 4X above 75 points.
Darren Hanesn
Sorry to intrude since I wasn't involved earlier.
In MSH I've altered the cost of increasing powers and the like, to be a
little more on scale with Champions. Basically I've cut the cost
severely. Useing XP from Champions like Karma could be done the way we
used to do it; we had been playing MSH and went back to Champions so we
loved the spending points for saving rolls. We came up with the system
that you spend an XP point (if you have one) and roll 1d6. Subtract or
add this to the die roll total you're attempting to modify. Depending on
what kind of roll your modifying. It didn't get used much because of the
XP advancement curve, but it could save your bacon on a bad day.
**DMAN