The Complete Werewolf Ghoul!!
Scout
Werewolf Ghouls.
Werewolf ghouls are the nasty combination of both garou and
ghoul. I
decided to treat this whole thing as a merit or flaw. You, the
storyteller must judge how much the background costs. To decide this,
consider the circumstances and situation of the Garou Ghoul.
You should know that Werewolf Ghouls can be very powerful (especially if
mini/maxed). Imagine a Theurge with Thaumaturgy. An ahroun with
potence/fortitude/celerity. After using his rage he’ll just keep on
going and going and going. If anyone is left that is… When designing a
Ghoul PC, allow the player to choose his Sire’s clan. Everything else
is up to you to design and create. Do not let this character overwhelm
your campaign. This should be a bridge between Garou and Kindred in
crossover games and enhance any VTA campaign. I'd like to thank Ulf
Borelius (sorry if I butchered your name) for his comments and critique
of my first post. I hope you like using it as much as I liked making
it. I'll be adding background material on Garou-Ghoul Kindred hunters,
Ghoul hunters in Garou society, kinfolk ghouls and other things that
come to mind. If you have any ideas or comments, please send them to
me.
1. The regnant’s attitude.
a. Lover. Love is one of the most powerful forces in the world
even
when it’s the Gothic-Punk World. The Garou and his lover may have known
each other before their respective transformations or they might have
miraculously fell in love afterwards. They have a pure love that is
untainted. They will consumate it. Most likely, the lovers won’t be
blood bound to each other but some especially devoted lovers do bind
each other for all eternity. For these supernatural lovers, blood
binding is like marriage to mortals. The PC can choose whether or not
he and his lover will be bound. The lovers will kill for one another,
die for one another or do anything that is required for the other. They
will constantly try and get their respective other some acceptance in
their own society or they will maintain a high level of secrecy. This
gives all the benefits of the merit "True Love." This level of loyalty
and love costs three points (+3).
b. Benevolent: If the regnant is benevolent, then he will take
care
of the Ghoul, feed him regularly, teach him kindred lore, disciplines
and law ( the ghoul will have kindred lore 2 or more), keep him safe,
use the ghoul carefully (not as cannon fodder) and generally treat him
kindly. The master will defend the ghoul from other vampires to a great
extent and will attempt to change other kindred’s minds about his new
creation. The regnant’s attitude towards the ghouled garou will be much
like a human towards a favored dog. Of course, the regnant does have
limits to his kindness. The regnant may keep the ghoul confined (but in
comfortable quarters), demand services of her, and may put the ghoul to
sleep when her time comes (or maintenance becomes too difficult). Think
of this as a relationship between Lassie and Timmy (or whatever the
kid’s name is). He’ll play with her, take care of her and everything
else but if his parents tell him to put the dog to sleep, he’ll cry, but
in the end Lassie will be euthanized.
This costs two points (-2).
c. Neutral: The regnant cares about his ghoul but only as a
tool.
He’ll feed the ghoul fairly regularly and teach him basic kindred lore
(kindred lore 1) but he won’t go beyond that. The regnant considers his
thrall a mindless object. He’ll take care of it just as he would a
prized gun or car but he’ll see no life in his thrall. He will not
hesitate to kill it or abandon it in times of trouble. Think of this as
a cold hearted hunter and his beagle. He’ll like the beagle for the
good work it does but won’t neccesarily love it. (0)`
d. Malevolent: The regnant hates his thrall or really abuses
it (or
both). He’ll sacrifice it at any inconvenient time. He’ll use it as a
cheap gun and discard it after his crime. He won’t teach the thrall
anything and feed him only when convenient. Pity the garou who lives in
such a terrible state. Consider this a relationship between a cheap
thug and his disposable Saturday night special. This is a flaw worth
two points (+2).
2. The master’s power. The master’s power determines to a great degree
the potential advantage the Garou recieves after being ghouled. To
handle it simply, Each generation before thirteenth costs one point
(12th=1, 11=2, etc). Political office, wealth and knowledge are not
factored into this because they aren’t directly inherited by the thrall.
3. Blood Pool. Werewolves, being bigger and stronger can carry more
blood than a normal human being. Thus after being ghouled, they can
carry more vitae. Garou ghouls can carry a total of twenty five blood
points (25).
4. Wyrm Taint. Garou don’t necessarily become tainted after being
ghouled.
a. If the Garou wasn’t tainted before ghouling, he doesn’t
become
tainted by the process. He will always remain a Garou, even though he
is carrying and using vitae.
b. The state of the kindred regnant doesn’t matter. The
vampire can
be saintly Saulot or terrible Tremere, but it doesn’t matter. If the
master is tainted, the Garou still remains untainted. Of course, a
blood bound ghoul will do nearly anything for his master. The Garou’s
pure state will most likely be short.
5. Garou Law. The Garou who engage in ghouling, willing and unwilling,
had best keep it a secret. If they are found out by Garou or Kinfolk,
they can expect either a swift death or an excruciating demise. This
depends on whether the Garou is a willing ghoul or an unwitting victim
of kindred schemes. Of course, some garou know little about Kindred and
ghouls, so they may not be able to tell the difference. This is a
fairly universal treatment of ghouls by most Garou. The notable
exceptions are the Glass Walkers, Children of Gaia and Get of Fenris.
Children of Gaia tend to be a more thoughtful, noble and peaceable
Garou. They treat Ghouls as individual cases. They try to determine,
if possible, who exactly ghouled the Garou. They then attempt to
determine who or what the kindred is and what their motives are. Only
then is the case dealt with. The Children step lightly and try not to
tip their hand if they find a hidden Ghoul. If the Garou was a willing
ghoul, the children approach him and ask him to make amends for gravely
threatening Garou security. They will ask him to purify himself of all
kindred blood and then they will try to determine if he is still under
kindred influence. This is frequently accomplished through the
summoning of powerful spirits who posess extraordinary sight.
If the garou does as he is told, he will lose much glory, honor
and
wisdom. He will be regarded by the tribe as a power hungry fool for
some time. Since the Children are loving, this period doesn’t last long
(rarely over a year) and they never reject anyone from the tribe for
such an offense. If the Garou doesn’t do as he is told, he will be
ordered to drink a powerful poison. He will die swiftly and
mercifully. His name shall never again be mentioned.
If the garou is an unwilling ghoul, the children will try and
find his
regnant. Once they do, they summarily burn or decapitate the kindred so
as to save the Garou. They are as brutal as any Get if they find out
such a heinous act has been committed.
The Glasswalkers look on Ghouls as powerful agents inserted deep
in
enemy territory. If the Ghoul was a willing ghoul, he will be treated
as a very sensitive and dangerous asset. He is not to be trusted. He
is a strange unknown to the Garou. He will be treated fairly normally
on the surface but his pack will be ordered by elders to some important
task. They will be seperated from the Ghoul and both will be carefully
screened. The ghoul will be fed false information and seperated from
other Garou. The ghoul will never notice it as the elders always mask
their schemes by repeating over and over that the ghoul has been chosen
for a secret mission. They chose him above his peers and all this
secrecy is necessary for success. The ghoul will never be aware that
the elders know of his ghoul status. The elders finally let the Ghoul
loose and let their false information disseminate throughout the kindred
community, thus freeing up their actions in the city. Once the ghoul
has outlived his usefullness, he will be executed swiftly or sent on a
suicide mission. In any case, the willing ghoul is a dead ghoul. It is
just a matter of time.
The unwilling ghoul is treated as a victim and his regnant is
treated
as a wyrm creature of the worst sort. The regnant will be tortured for
information, and eventually decapitated. Once the ghoul is freed of any
kindred influence, he will be placed in a less sensitive position. He
will be treated fairly and given sympathy but he will never be fully
trusted. Many glasswalkers will pity him but few will trust him.
The Get of Fenris are brutal and vicious. They will kill any
ghoul
they find. No questions asked. They consider any ghouled Garou a
weakling and a threat. The method depends on how reputable the Get is.
If he is liked and respected, he will be killed mercifully. If not, he
will be burnt or torn to shreds. In any case, the attack will be sudden
and ferocious. The only ceremony is the one after the ghoul’s death.
6. Secrecy. The secrecy of the Ghoul’s current status in Garou society
is vital to his success. Any Ghoul with half a brain knows the dangers
and almost all take great precaution. However, some Garou have it
easier than others.
a. Total Secrecy. The Garou is in a position where he can be
gone
for great amounts of time in the city ( a spy, scout or kindred hunter)
or is not questioned by his pack. The Garou will have at least ten
secret locations in which to meet his regnant. This doesn’t necessarily
mean that they are safehouses. They are simply locations in which Garou
or Kindred don’t frequent for one reason or another. The Garou can set
up a meet in less than an hour with considerable safety. The Garou has
either found these spots are they were given to him by his regnant.
(-2)
b. Little Secrecy. The Garou is in either a vital position or
has a
questioning pack. He will have three spots in which he can meet his
regnant. He will be treated as a normal Garou if he isn’t around very
often. He might be questioned from time to time. Meets will take at
least a day’s notice to set up. (0)
c. Suspicion. The pack or Sept simply doesn’t trust the
ghoul. They
feel something is up. The Garou may or may not know of this. The pack
may follow him at anytime and find out what the ghoul is doing. They
may question him intensly. They will feel angered by the suspicious
nature of his actions. After all, what couldn’t he tell the pack?
There are no safe locations. The meets require at least a week’s
notice. Eventually Garou will be caught. It is simply a matter of
time. (+3).
The secrecy of the Garou’s current state in vampire society
depends
upon the sire.
The sire may have any of the three levels of secrecy. If the player
wishes, he can buy the level of secrecy for his character’s sire. Total
secrecy costs 1 point (-2), little secrecy costs nothing, and suspicion
is a 1 point flaw (+3). The reactions of the different clans,
bloodlines and politicians to Ghouling is extremely varied. If they are
ever found, the pair may be extinguished, befriended, used or just
observed. Storytellers should use a reaction appropriate to the story
and the clan/bloodline/situation.
7. A most important Merit. The most important merit a Ghoul PC can
have is "Cannot be blood bound." That is all it means. The character
cannot ever be blood bound. It is a three point merit (-3). Garou
characters can take this merit. It does make them powerful, but that is
what Garou are anyway.
8. Attitudes.
"You know, I knew one of these sick fucks. I found him suckin’ this
leech bitch’s tit and cunt. It sure wasn’t milk or cunt-juice he was
drinkin’! Later on, he was sleepin like a baby on her stomach. It
looked like this poor fuck and leech-bitch were in love! We came around
and chopped his head off before he knew what was goin’ on. We hosed
down the bitch with gas and torched her. She must’ve ran around for an
hour before she turned to dust..."
Blade-In-Heart-Of-Leech, Get of Fenris Philodox.
"Mary-Anne is a good girl. She always helps out before and after the
Moots. When Thorn-In-Foot couldn’t hunt that winter, she went out and
killed deer for his rites. When I needed a little cash for school, she
found a glasswalker who could help. One day, Mary-Anne was ambushed on
the NYU campus. She never knew what hit her. She woke up the next day
thinking she was raped but that didn’t make sense! The next day, we
found her in an alley with four dead cops all around her body. She was
crying and looked so lost... We thought a bane got her. An elder seer
looked her over and found out that she was "ghouled". The GW’s said
that we had to kill her master. We found a hole nest of ‘em six months
later. Twenty pale defiled human bodies were in that shack. We killed
each of their murderers and avenged their deaths. Then we burnt the
shack and sanctified the area. Mary-Anne is Ok now. But she isn’t
allowed at moots anymore. Poor Mary-Anne...God have mercy on her.
Sister Faith Robbins, Children of Gaia Ahroun.
"What? Ok, I can’t talk long. I have to meet my contact at 0900. He’s
a ventrue antitribu. Don’t worry, you don’t need to know what that
means. The meet is at an as yet undisclosed location. The encrypted
coordinates will be transmitted to my laptop in a second. Hmm? I’m on
a mission friend. The whole world is relying upon me. My name? 006.
The coordinates are here. I have to make the meet. I wasn’t here. You
never saw me. I don’t even exist..."
"006", Glasswalker Ahroun.
"So...you want to take this 450lb monster, who can take all our heads
off in a fuckin goddamn second, and do what with him?! You silly little
shit. I’m not fuckin’ with him. I don’t care if he looks like he’ll
listen. I don’t care what you’ve done to him. These things are bad
news. I’m tellin all of you little chicken-shits to leave this thing
alone. Got it? You fuckin’ piece of shit. Mother fucker! Somebody
get over here and finish this thing off. Let’s get outta here before
its friends show up."
Marcus, Ventrue Antitribu, Sabbat Pack Leader.
"I have met some of these so called "monsters" and I find more humanity
in them then most kindred. Yes their beast is close to the surface but
they have channeled their beast. That is a most impressive feat. You
are a most beautiful childe and I love you dearly but you will not do
this thing. They are not moon-beasts, lupines or werewolves. They are
Garou. You shall show them proper respect as will your childe and your
childe’s childe. The Garou are to be spared both our dread-kiss and our
entrancing touch."
Vijay Chandrashakar, Gangrel Prince of Madras.
"Hello students. This is "Introduction to Lupine Manipulation 101", for
those of you in the wrong class. Hurry now..get to your right class.
Freshman! If you remember our last lecture, we discussed the various
basic variables of dealing with lupines. Today we will discussing the
actual manipulation of the various Lupine "tribes." Your basic tool in
the field is the Ghouling process. How many of you read Van Sant? A
whopping three students. That must be a record. The Van Sant process
is a most dangerous method and only has a tiny window of oppurtunity.
It must be emphasized that this process has a 78% fatality rate among
the Camarilla and a 80% fatality rate among the Sabbat (although those
numbers may not be accurate). But the rewards are near-fantastic aren’t
they?!
Doctor Cyrus Young, Tremere Chantry Teacher.
"Leave that shit alone. You don’t wanna mess with it. It just ain’t
smart. If I were you, I’d stay away from the Lupines altogether. Hell
yeah you should fear them. You’re a fool if you don’t. Remember! Stay
away from the lupines. They’re creatures of the day. We’re creatures
of the night. Simple as that."
Johnny Brujah, Brujah Ancilla.
"The lupines aren’t all bad. Did you know that there are different
kinds. It’s true. They prefer to be called Garou by the way. Dunno
what it means but use that word instead of anything else. Some are
real uppity and rich like the ventrue. Others are more like us. Kinda
scruffy on the outside but they’ve got it in their heads and their
hearts. Where it counts. Just like us. Then there’s a whole tribe
of...good guys. That’s right. They’re the good guys. If everything
goes to hell, the sabbat come to town or the Tremere fuck with something
that can fuck with them, go to them. They’ll come out here. They’re
kind of flaky a little. Like hippies but they’re cool. The ones we
hang with are called "Bone Gnawers." Treat all of ‘em with respect but
try and hang only with the Gnawers. Don’t ever fuck with the Garou in
anyway. You understand? They understand us and we understand them.
Come on I’ll introduce you to one."
Idiom Savant, Nosferatu Elder.
"Touch not the Lupines. They are most fearsome in their vengeance."
Abdul Naseem, Assamite Master of Assasins.
"Whenever you find such a noble beast in such squalor, try your damndest
to free it. He will be most thankful and so shall earth-mother. Deal
with the kindred most harshly but fairly. End his life quickly. But do
this from the shadows for kindred wrath is mighty."
Ezekiel-walks-with-Wolves channeling an ancestor spirit, Dreamspeaker
Master of Spirit.
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu
In article <32E9C0...@gwis.com>, Scout <sc...@gwis.com> writes:
|> Werewolf Ghouls.
|> Werewolf ghouls are the nasty combination of both garou and
|> ghoul. I
|> decided to treat this whole thing as a merit or flaw. You, the
|> storyteller must judge how much the background costs. To decide this,
|> consider the circumstances and situation of the Garou Ghoul.
|> You should know that Werewolf Ghouls can be very powerful (especially if
|> mini/maxed). Imagine a Theurge with Thaumaturgy. An ahroun with
|> potence/fortitude/celerity. After using his rage he’ll just keep on
|> going and going and going. If anyone is left that is… When designing a
Unless the regnant is generation 7+, the ghoul would be limited to level one
Disciplines. And the cost for gaining Disciplines beyond the free dot in Potence
is high.
|> The Get of Fenris are brutal and vicious. They will kill any
|> ghoul
|> they find. No questions asked. They consider any ghouled Garou a
|> weakling and a threat. The method depends on how reputable the Get is.
|> If he is liked and respected, he will be killed mercifully. If not, he
|> will be burnt or torn to shreds. In any case, the attack will be sudden
|> and ferocious. The only ceremony is the one after the ghoul’s death.
Appalachia by Night has a Get who was rescued from ghouldom, although her rescuer
kept it a secret.
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
Ian Turner
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu wrote:
> Unless the regnant is generation 7+, the ghoul would be limited to
> level one Disciplines.
That may change, Book of Storyteller Secrets suggest that Ghouls
of a 10th Gen Kindred can have 2 Dots and an 8th Gen Ghouls can reach 3
Dots. There is obviously still a 5 Dot cap.
> And the cost for gaining Disciplines beyond the free dot in Potence is
> high.
That may also change by Fatal Addiction's release. And the
Freebie cost remains unchanged as of yet, although Ghouls are cleverly
reduced to 8 Freebies instead of 21 as I recall. This would just allow
one additional Dot in a Discipline at start.
Being a Ghoul is listed as a 5 pt Merit in Ascension's Right
Hand. I would not require someone to pay for this if I were docking him
13 Freebies to boot. I would require him to pay for this after creation
though. I would assume that learning to push that Blood around to do
stuff and to spend specific amounts at will in just the right attribute
would take some time and training (5 XP worth seems not unreasonable).
Fatal Addiction will also allow a Ghoul to start with his free
Dot in Potence, Celerity or Fortitude depending upon his Kindred
Master!!! (What exactly Tremere, Malkavian, Setite or Tzimisce Ghouls
gain is beyond me...)
Ian Turner.
Brian Cheebie Merchant
In the dying days of the second millennium, jbu...@gemini.kent.edu ()
wrote:
>Unless the regnant is generation 7+, the ghoul would be limited to level one
>Disciplines. And the cost for gaining Disciplines beyond the free dot in Potence
>is high.
Where did you get this information? I am running a character with a pair
of ghoul dogs and have been looking for more info on them.
---
che...@smart.net
The Mighty Cheebie: loyal drone in the service of Da Queen
Eater of Oreos, wearer of wing weaves, maker of pillows.
Ian Turner
Brian Cheebie Merchant wrote:
> Where did you get this information? I am running a character with a
> pair of ghoul dogs and have been looking for more info on them.
The Storyteller's Handbook has aweful Ghoul rules limiting them
to a single Dot unless you are an Elder, 25 (!) XP to learn a new Disp
and (I think!) about current level x 20 (!) to raise them. Since Ghouls
rarely get XP (a point a session IF they really participate!) it would
take about 6 months of Role-playing for a Ghoul to reach level two
Potence IF you were 7th Gen AND had Potence 2 to teach!
The Powerful Ghouls in CB: Toreador must have 6 Dots in six
different things (and they can only know stuff their master knows!) and
be about as old as Caine...
The Book of Storyteller Secrets to the Dark Ages loosens to the
Dot restrictions majorly, making Powerful Ghouls possible, but the XP
thing is still not dealt with for 2nd Edition.
Liber des Ghouls for MET only limits XP to the out-of-clan costs
that Kindred pay, but is a vastly different system that may be totally
replaced by Fatal Addicition in June.
And with any luck those munchkin-bait Revenants will be snipped
down to size! And the Ducheski revealed!!!
Ian Turner.
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <32F968...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>Brian Cheebie Merchant wrote:
>take about 6 months of Role-playing for a Ghoul to reach level two
>Potence IF you were 7th Gen AND had Potence 2 to teach!
I agree totally with your article, except one thing. I think that the
path of advancement in Vampire in general is too fast. Frankly, getting a
point of Disciplines every couple of years at first is ok, but more often
than that leads to ridiculously overpowered characters in no time.
Imagine how much a few centuries must give you if your neonate is picking
up a discipline every month!
Ghouls should advance slowly, and there is the classic problem of how to
make sure that ghouls are weaker than neonates....
Rob
--
Robert Mayberry Student of Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech
Official Media Assassin- GT College Republicans
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu | "Never underestimate the power of
tanz...@r39h29.res.gatech.edu | human stupidity"- R.A. Heinlein
Ian Turner
Bruno Panz-Jones wrote:
> Ghouls should advance slowly, and there is the classic problem of how
> to make sure that ghouls are weaker than neonates....
Ghouls really only should get an XP per session IF they do
something important in it. IF the players are playing Ghouls AS their
characters, then normal XP is fine, but at the (maybe!) 1 XP per session
rate, the Ghouls will not be outstripping their Kindred masters any time
soon unless the player is SO awful that he nevers gets any XP!
I don't have any problem with Ghouls advancing at even DOUBLE
Out-of-Clan costs (maybe double In-Clan costs for Potence, Celerity and
Fortitude) but 25 XP and current level x 20 is a bit much if a player
CHOOSES to play a Ghoul... (Whether in a Vampire, Hunter or other
Chronicle)
Ian Turner,
who wouldn't care if he hadn't played one before...
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <32F9EC...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>Bruno Panz-Jones wrote:
>> Ghouls should advance slowly, and there is the classic problem of how
>> to make sure that ghouls are weaker than neonates....
> Ghouls really only should get an XP per session IF they do
>something important in it. IF the players are playing Ghouls AS their
>characters, then normal XP is fine, but at the (maybe!) 1 XP per session
>rate, the Ghouls will not be outstripping their Kindred masters any time
>soon unless the player is SO awful that he nevers gets any XP!
Actually, I meant only for Disciplines, but I know what you mean. My
policy is to award XP to main characters based on player performance
(their character's actions are updated in downtime).
I ended up doubling the XP costs for everything, after I noticed that
player character power was really skyrocketting. Most characters were
only getting 2 XP, but they still were like that. I once gave 4 to a
character who went above and beyond the call of duty.
Power creep is a real problem for long term chronicles...
LEONARD Daniel
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Bruno Panz-Jones wrote:
> > Ghouls should advance slowly, and there is the classic problem of how
> > to make sure that ghouls are weaker than neonates....
>
> Ghouls really only should get an XP per session IF they do
> something important in it. IF the players are playing Ghouls AS their
> characters, then normal XP is fine, but at the (maybe!) 1 XP per session
> rate, the Ghouls will not be outstripping their Kindred masters any time
> soon unless the player is SO awful that he nevers gets any XP!
> I don't have any problem with Ghouls advancing at even DOUBLE
> Out-of-Clan costs (maybe double In-Clan costs for Potence, Celerity and
> Fortitude) but 25 XP and current level x 20 is a bit much if a player
> CHOOSES to play a Ghoul... (Whether in a Vampire, Hunter or other
> Chronicle)
>
> Ian Turner,
> who wouldn't care if he hadn't played one before...
>
>
The cost is high because ghouls have something not belonging to them,
diciplines belongs to vampires as gifts to werewolves and sphere to mages.
*******************************************************
* *
*Daniel Leonard *
* *
* www : http://www.jsp.umontreal.ca/~leonard *
* *
*******************************************************
"Total freedom means total responsability"
-Dominique, Children of the Inquisition
Loki
One day, it so happened that gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Bruno
Panz-Jones) wrote:
>In article <32F968...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>>Brian Cheebie Merchant wrote:
>>take about 6 months of Role-playing for a Ghoul to reach level two
>>Potence IF you were 7th Gen AND had Potence 2 to teach!
>I agree totally with your article, except one thing. I think that the
>path of advancement in Vampire in general is too fast. Frankly, getting a
>point of Disciplines every couple of years at first is ok, but more often
>than that leads to ridiculously overpowered characters in no time.
>Imagine how much a few centuries must give you if your neonate is picking
>up a discipline every month!
The simple solution to this is called downtime.
When I run chronicles that span centuries (which I sometimes do), I
throw in the odd few decades of downtime from time to time. When
Nothing Happens. And traits don't change.
Traits only change when stuff is happening all the time...
>Ghouls should advance slowly, and there is the classic problem of how
>to make sure that ghouls are weaker than neonates....
Well, how to make sure that most* ghouls are weaker than neonates. The
occasional 5th- or 6th-gen ghoul that pops up can be a welcome
surprise.
I like the Storyteller's Handbook rules. They're what I use...
'member, ghouls pay the same price as everyone else for Attributes &
Abilities. so they can often be very capable without disciplines.
but I also tend to feel WW NPCs are overpowered in general...
Loki --- Brynjolfr --- Redvision --- Jeremiah
f3...@unb.ca --- redv...@geocities.com --- d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
Ian Turner
LEONARD Daniel wrote:
> The cost is high because ghouls have something not belonging to them,
> diciplines belongs to vampires as gifts to werewolves and sphere to
> mages.
And Trix are for kids!
Silly rabbit.
Ian Turner.
John H
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Bruno Panz-Jones) spit out some electrons
that said:
<SNIP>
>Power creep is a real problem for long term chronicles...
If you've been playing the same guy for over a year, you will have one
kick-ass guy! The way to combat this is to not always play
night-by-night, but sometimes play "What are you going to do this
year/month/season/decade/ect"
John -
Don't confuse comfort with happiness.
Don't confuse wealth with success.
Don't confuse polyester with Dacron.
Matthew The Livewire Morris
On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 00:13:04 -0500, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com>
wrote:
:) The Powerful Ghouls in CB: Toreador must have 6 Dots in six
:)different things (and they can only know stuff their master knows!) and
:)be about as old as Caine...
:) The Book of Storyteller Secrets to the Dark Ages loosens to the
:)Dot restrictions majorly, making Powerful Ghouls possible, but the XP
:)thing is still not dealt with for 2nd Edition.
:) Liber des Ghouls for MET only limits XP to the out-of-clan costs
:)that Kindred pay, but is a vastly different system that may be totally
:)replaced by Fatal Addicition in June.
:) And with any luck those munchkin-bait Revenants will be snipped
:)down to size! And the Ducheski revealed!!!
:)
Why are hte Revenants Munchkin bait? IYHO? A young Revenant is as
'powerful' as a starting Vampire, that can't buy Generation, his
Dominate won't work on anything except Mortals, is stuck with the 1
BP/turn rate, and stil lsuffers all the human frailities.
:) Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Matthew The Livewire Morris wrote:
> Why are the Revenants Munchkin bait? IYHO? A young Revenant is as
> 'powerful' as a starting Vampire, that can't buy Generation, his
> Dominate won't work on anything except Mortals, is stuck with the 1
And he need never feed as his body pumps out vitae at 1 BP per
day (if I had a Revenant in my Herd I could tell everyone else to go
home...), he can get Disiplines without the Ghoul limitations and costs,
the new Revenants are ONLY as powerful as Neonate Kindred while their
Eldest are as potent as Elders in DSotBH and finally they can walk out
in the sunlight giving them access to the 50% of the world that the
Kindred cannot control.
There is no mention anywhere as to whether they are subject to
Frenzy, Aggravated Wounds, Rotschroek (although obviously not from
sunlight!) or Faith. I personally do not think that there would be
Vampires left alive in a world with Revenants. If I where a
Revenant I would bump the bloodsuckers off while they sleep, maybe
keeping one or two staked in the basement for blood production.
Its probably just me, but actually I have never seen anyone play
or allow a Revenant, so maybe not.
Ian Turner.
Matthew Morris
On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 19:37:51 -0500, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com>
wrote:
>Matthew The Livewire Morris wrote:
>> Why are the Revenants Munchkin bait? IYHO? A young Revenant is as
>> 'powerful' as a starting Vampire, that can't buy Generation, his
>> Dominate won't work on anything except Mortals, is stuck with the 1
>> BP/turn rate, and still suffers all the human frailties.
>
> And he need never feed as his body pumps out vitae at 1 BP per
>day (if I had a Revenant in my Herd I could tell everyone else to go
>home...), he can get Disiplines without the Ghoul limitations and costs,
>the new Revenants are ONLY as powerful as Neonate Kindred while their
>Eldest are as potent as Elders in DSotBH and finally they can walk out
>in the sunlight giving them access to the 50% of the world that the
>Kindred cannot control.
Hmm, those are good points, I guess I look at the Revenants being
1) Pretty much isolated from mankind. They're really wierd, with the
exception of the Rafistio, which are only slightly wierd.
2) Lucky if they burn only a blood point in a night.
3) Low man on the Totem Pole (especially in the sabbat)
4) No support, their families aren't much help...
5) In the WOD as a whole they're really small fry
> There is no mention anywhere as to whether they are subject to
>Frenzy, Aggravated Wounds, Rotschroek (although obviously not from
>sunlight!) or Faith.
Do you want my house rules?
Frenzy. Yes, as Ghouls except for sunlight. (except the Bratovitches,
due to their clan weekness)
Rotchrek, Fire yes, Sunlight, not as extreme
Aggrivated wounds, yep, which is the 5 bp to heal rule
Faith- Difficulties are 2 higher since they're mostly human.
> I personally do not think that there would be
>Vampires left alive in a world with Revenants. If I where a
>Revenant I would bump the bloodsuckers off while they sleep, maybe
>keeping one or two staked in the basement for blood production.
> Its probably just me, but actually I have never seen anyone play
>or allow a Revenant, so maybe not.
>
Actually I have played (and would allow) a Revenant character,
especially in a Cammerilla game, since the risks (hey, he's a
breather, he's a Sabbat Breather!) would be consumate to the powers.
> Ian Turner.
Matthew Morris
Ian Turner
Matthew Morris wrote:
> Actually I have played (and would allow) a Revenant character,
> especially in a Cammerilla game, since the risks (hey, he's a
> breather, he's a Sabbat Breather!) would be consumate to the powers.
In most of the games I have played the characters would have had
no clue what a Revenant was let alone that they were Sabbat. Plus,
lots of people breath in LARP, whether due to Baby Face, Masquerade
skill or just some affectation of smoking... Plus the games tend to be
crawling with Ghouls, Hunters, etc even the occasional Mage or
Highlander in some LARPS, so attacking the first person who draws breath
is going to be some characters last action! After watching a Revenant
use Kindred powers and obviously eat, breathe, etc most PC's will say
'Ghoul' and walk away. If he shows off more than most Ghouls a CLEVER
PC will mutter, "Correction, Powerful Ghoul!" and walk away wondering
where he can get one and who he has to kill to break this ones Blood
Bond and have a shot at him... It is more likely that a Kindred ally to
the Revenant will die first because of this. Stealing Ghouls is fun,
stealing Powerful Ghouls is AWESOME.
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Matthew Morris wrote:
> 1) Pretty much isolated from mankind. They're really wierd, with the
> exception of the Rafistio, which are only slightly wierd.
That still beats the shit out of a Malkavian or Nosferatu!
> 2) Lucky if they burn only a blood point in a night.
True. Especially for those with Celerity or Thaumaturgy!
> 3) Low man on the Totem Pole (especially in the sabbat)
I would ditch the Sabbat and pretend to be an Independent
Powerful Ghoul for some Camarilla or Independent types.
> 4) No support, their families aren't much help...
I have never seen Clan support make much of a difference in a
LARP anyway. Ooh, all of the other Ventrue in town will back me up on
this, umm guys??? Is anyone else playing a Ventrue tonight? Answer your
phone, dammit, this Brujah keeps shooting me! <OW!> What do you mean
'Can I hold'!!!
The Tremere are usually the only ones who get any mileage out of
Clanmates anyway. Coteries are better, and since most will take Garou,
Mages and Highlanders, I doubt a 'Powerful Ghoul' will have much
trouble. Hell some Coteries would take Shaitan if he showed up!
> 5) In the WOD as a whole they're really small fry
No smaller than any starting Kindred and they can function
during the day as well when the Kindred are helpless except for their
Ghouls, whom the starting Revenant should be able to handle...
> Frenzy. Yes, as Ghouls except for sunlight. (except the Bratovitches,
> due to their clan weekness)
Agreed.
> Rotchrek, Fire yes, Sunlight, not as extreme
For sunlight, maybe a 1 Bid down / +1 to all Difficulties sort
of thing since they are halfway there. But not Rotschroek in any case.
> Aggravated wounds, yep, which is the 5 bp to heal rule
I agree.
> Faith- Difficulties are 2 higher since they're mostly human.
Interesting. I like.
Ian Turner.
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <32FBCA...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>Matthew The Livewire Morris wrote:
> And he need never feed as his body pumps out vitae at 1 BP per
>day (if I had a Revenant in my Herd I could tell everyone else to go
And having a being like that in your herd is probably very very dangerous.
Unless you are an elder, controlling a whole household of them, they are
powerful enough to stop you from feeding on them. Moreover, if on is in
your herd, then you have to wonder whether he is spying on you for his
true masters.
Also, regenerating blood is one thing, but remember: unless you are
drinking regularly from Kindred, you have NO other way of gaining vitae.
In other words, you are stuck to spending a BP every day, unlike a
vampire, who can (and typically does) gorge before a major fight or
challenge.
>home...), he can get Disiplines without the Ghoul limitations and costs,
>the new Revenants are ONLY as powerful as Neonate Kindred while their
>Eldest are as potent as Elders in DSotBH and finally they can walk out
actually, look back at DSotBH. They aren't that powerful. The template
for elder revenant is certainly not overpowered. Remember also that
Revenants are vulnerable to poison gas and other environmental hazards,
they must eat and drink (unlike vampires) and are typically BORN capable
of frenzy. This leads to powerful psychological effects. Vampires
recognize that their bloodlust is unnatural and can fight it. Imagine how
it must be, then, if you never knew a time without it?
>in the sunlight giving them access to the 50% of the world that the
>Kindred cannot control.
> There is no mention anywhere as to whether they are subject to
>Frenzy, Aggravated Wounds, Rotschroek (although obviously not from
Yes, look over the description again. It points out clearly that they can
and do frenzy, like all ghouls. The Bratoviches in particular are very
close to the Beast. [NB: notice how the Beast causes great trauma. IN
many ways, these beings are less human than many vampires]
>sunlight!) or Faith. I personally do not think that there would be
Whether or not faith has any affect is storyteller discretion, and not
really covered. I would personally rule that there IS some effect.
>Vampires left alive in a world with Revenants. If I where a
>Revenant I would bump the bloodsuckers off while they sleep, maybe
>keeping one or two staked in the basement for blood production.
> Its probably just me, but actually I have never seen anyone play
>or allow a Revenant, so maybe not.
The weaknesses of a Revenant are listed above, but the most damning ones
are social.
1) Social separation: most are raised in manors, exposed to only their
own family members. Living lives of torture, orgies, ritualism and
incest, the Revenants are far from human. Thus, infiltrating human
society can be even harder for them.
2) Sponsorship: Revenants must be bred from ghouls or other revenants.
Without a steady source of vampiric vitae, they are doomed to having their
blood thin over the generations. Since it takes centuries and generations
to breed a revenant family, it is important to realize that only powerful
elders and methuselae have the time, resources, space and blood to pull
this off. Vampires typically live most of their mortal lives under at
very least the illusion of freedom. Revenants are born and bred from
infancy to serve a particular vampiric master. They are fanatical and
warped, to a point that even the Assamites and Settites would find
disturbing.
3) Revenants are not going to go adventuring. It is a big step to leave
their country manors. They are a small group, very small, which live in
constant fear of becoming involved in the affairs of the Kindred to the
point that they are slaughtered.
Imagine all the benefits of being a ghoul-- magnified to the nth degree.
That is being a revenant. Now, though, imagine the depression, the
isolation, the creeping madness, the bondage and suffering.
That's what being a revenant is all about, too.
russell wallace
>If you've been playing the same guy for over a year, you will have one
>kick-ass guy! The way to combat this is to not always play
>night-by-night, but sometimes play "What are you going to do this
>year/month/season/decade/ect"
How exactly will that "combat" having "one kick-ass guy"? As far as I
can see, it will only combat the SOD problems of excessively rapid
character advancement by providing IC reason for this advancement to
occur.
My preferred remedy for this SOD problem is to give some extra freebie
points to start with and then only 1 XP per session.
--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwal...@tcd.ie
Jeffryes Joshua M
:|On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 19:37:51 -0500, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com>
:|wrote:
I think the below is Ian Turner, but if it's Matthew Morris someone say
something.
:|2) Lucky if they burn only a blood point in a night.
And don't forget that a vampire can gain more blood. A revenant can do so
*only* through time. Got beaten up in a fight? Tough. A vampire can just
go suck down a few mortals. A revenant has to go home and hide for a week
or two to build up again.
For one or two scenes, they can equal vampires. After that, they're just
mortals with Disciplines, half of which they cannot use (ie: any that
burn blood).
I don't see how they're much worse than Gypsies, and you don't get a lot
of whining about them.
:|3) Low man on the Totem Pole (especially in the sabbat)
:|4) No support, their families aren't much help...
:|5) In the WOD as a whole they're really small fry
And I imagine lots of vampires wouldn't mind killing them at all, not to
mention that they undoubtably smack of the Wyrm to Garou everywhere.
J. Spectre - maybe we'll see some expanded rules for revenants in the
upcoming ghouls book.
|"Those who trust do not question. |"A man who has not passed through |
| Those who fear dare not question." | the inferno of his passions has |
| -NWO slogan | never overcome them." -CG Jung |
+ --------------------Neighbors: the other red meat---------------------+
John H
rwal...@tcd.ie (russell wallace) spit out some electrons that said:
>In <5dg0m4$a...@neonlights.uoregon.edu> jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (John H) writes:
>>If you've been playing the same guy for over a year, you will have one
>>kick-ass guy! The way to combat this is to not always play
>>night-by-night, but sometimes play "What are you going to do this
>>year/month/season/decade/ect"
>How exactly will that "combat" having "one kick-ass guy"? As far as I
>can see, it will only combat the SOD problems of excessively rapid
>character advancement by providing IC reason for this advancement to
>occur.
O.K. lets say that you play once or twice a week. You get 1-3 xp
each time. If each session is a night, than it doesn't make much
sense to get so much so soon. So play out each one longer, to make it
make sense.
Ian Turner
Jeffryes Joshua M wrote:
> And don't forget that a vampire can gain more blood. A revenant can do
> so *only* through time. Got beaten up in a fight? Tough. A vampire can
> just go suck down a few mortals. A revenant has to go home and hide
> for a week or two to build up again.
A valid point.
> I don't see how they're much worse than Gypsies, and you don't get a
> lot of whining about them.
DON'T get me started!!! The idea of a Ravnos with a Gypsy Herd
and some skill in Draba (HEY, guys free magic items!), Dance of Knives
and Celerity, The Sight or Mediumship... Or an Embraced Ravnos Silent
Strider Kinfolk of the Lupine Gypsies with 4 in Spirit of the Wolf!
Faerie Threads, Patteran and Blood Sense are all also cool for a Kindred
to have and not just a Ravnos! Some Gangrel are Rom as well and ANY
group rumored to have occult abilities gets its share of Tremere and
Tzimisce attention, as well as the occasional Setite!
Too much IMO.
> J. Spectre - maybe we'll see some expanded rules for revenants in the
> upcoming ghouls book.
Liber des Ghoules suggests that Revenants are no different than
normal Ghouls, except for the added choice of Vicissitude.
Then again Liber des Ghoules suggests that Ghouls get a free Dot
in EITHER Potence, Celerity OR Fortitude depending on which Clan feeds
them, which would make a Nosferatu, Lasombra or Giovanni Ghoul have
Potence, an Assamite or Toreador Ghoul have Celerity and a Gangrel,
Ravnos or Ventrue Ghoul have Fortitude. Brujah Ghouls would be in
the unique position of getting to choose between Celerity and Potence.
Which leaves Malkavian, Tremere, Tzimisce and Setite Ghouls SOL
(although Auspex would make sense at the first level only as it is
mostly physical, which would leave only the Setite Ghouls SOL and we
could always give them the Eyes...).
Even the latter suggestions would mean squat for Ahrimanes,
Kiasyd, Baali, etc Ghouls...
Argh!
Ian Turner.
Araknid
> :)
> Why are hte Revenants Munchkin bait? IYHO? A young Revenant is as
> 'powerful' as a starting Vampire, that can't buy Generation, his
> Dominate won't work on anything except Mortals, is stuck with the 1
> BP/turn rate, and stil lsuffers all the human frailities.
>
> :) Ian Turner.
Revenants = Munchkin Bait if you play a member of the Verbena descended
family from DSotBH who that book says can also be fully functional Verbena
mages.
A starting character with 3 dots in Disciplines (Auspex, Animalism &
Thaumaturgy I think ... long time since I read that book), Blood pool 10/1
autorefreshs at 1 per day, Arete 3 or so , 6 dots in Spheres, the funky
mage Backgrounds and over a thousand years to get much more powerful
without Paradox forcing them to retire to a Horizon Realm ...
... or for the Ultimate Munchkin ... Ancient Revenant stats melded with
Horizon type Archmage stats .... now they start looking into the Skindancer
Ritual ... *shudder* ... oh and they've got fey blood/faerie affinity and
can store glamour points without losing them except when they cast cantrips
etc ...
of course this *thing* wouldn't come within a half dozen parallel universes
of most Storyteller's games .... unless they wanted it as the Ultimate
Player-Killing Psycho NPC .... hard to say which is worse.
end of incoherent rambling :-)
- Darian Webb
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <01bc1973$1e52af40$478602cb@lost>,
Araknid <ara...@light.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>Revenants = Munchkin Bait if you play a member of the Verbena descended
>family from DSotBH who that book says can also be fully functional Verbena
>mages.
THAT is the weakness of storytelling with Revenants.
I once had an idea for an eastern european family, bred into revenants by
the Tzimisce, who were then mostly culled. During the interim, they
discovered that, sheerly by accident, they had interbred with a Kinfolk
shadowlord family. When the Sabbat rose, they were all that survived.
That's when I realized what I was doing and stopped.
Now, don't get me wrong; if it helps your story, so be it. But this is
seriously unbalancing. The only balancing force I could have, as
storyteller, thought of were to give them a natural wyrm taint or
something. It is like giving Paradox to discipline use by mage revenants.
It just doesn't cut it.
What this means is that you have to keep the revenants as NPCs, and
control them very carefully.
A vampire ghouling a mage in a crossover game can be bad. A
revenant/werewolf or r/mage would just go too far.
With all this said, though, I find the revenants to be great for a story,
and a good part of the WoD. But they need to be held on a tight leash.
ROb
Ian Turner
Araknid wrote:
> Revenants = Munchkin Bait if you play a member of the Verbena
> descended family from DSotBH who that book says can also be fully
> functional Verbena mages.
Scary!
> A starting character with 3 dots in Disciplines (Auspex, Animalism &
> Thaumaturgy I think ... long time since I read that book), Blood pool
> 10/1 autorefreshs at 1 per day, Arete 3 or so , 6 dots in Spheres, the
> funky mage Backgrounds and over a thousand years to get much more
> powerful without Paradox forcing them to retire to a Horizon Realm...
Very Scary!!
> or for the Ultimate Munchkin. Ancient Revenant stats melded with
> Horizon type Archmage stats .... now they start looking into the
> Skindancer Ritual ... *shudder* ... oh and they've got fey
> blood/faerie affinity and can store glamour points without losing them
> except when they cast cantrips etc ...
Still not enough!
a) was born an unknowing Fianna Kinfolk amongst the Phuri Dae
Gypsy Family (pick one cool power that YOU get to write up and the
ability to make Magical items with Draba). Had Faith and / or Numina!
b) Awoke as a Verbena Mage (grab some Spheres).
c) Collected 5 BSP pelts (who said Black Spirals weren't good
for anything, you cash in 5 and you get a Skindancer free!) and use the
Skindancer Ritual to become a Garou (add Shapeshifting, Gifts & Rites,
make even MORE magical items with Fetishes and Talens).
d) Was Ghouled and Blood Bound by a Tremere for a century or so
(add Disciplines, agelessness and healing).
e) Was finally Embraced by the Tremere (using the Blood of the
Council they use to Blood Bound people to the Clan, making you 5th
Gen!!!) and lost Mage powers (boo-hoo! But ST allowed Spheres to convert
into appropriate Paths since you spent the XP anyway!)
f) Gathered a few Phuri Dae as Blood Bound Herd so as to be able
to keep using Gypsy powers.
g) As Tremere / Skindancer / ex-Verbena / Phuri Dae Rom was
trapped in a Hellhole and infested with a Bane, gaining cool Fomori
Powers (and some relatively harmless Taints).
h) Somehow kept Faith and / or Numina.
i) Player was throttled to death by indignant ST who has just
finished Chapter Two of his history and sees him bringing in the second
crate of character sheet! The world is saved.
I forgot the Revenant bit! Are there any Gypsy Revenants? Can
Mokole/Corax/whatever Kinfolk use the Skindancer Rite? Can one use
Ancestral Memory/Past Life/Mnesis to access the powers of True Magick
that a Kinfolk ancestor had? What if it was a Bane Child? Hmm...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Bruno Panz-Jones wrote:
> A vampire ghouling a mage in a crossover game can be bad. A
> revenant/werewolf or r/mage would just go too far.
>
> With all this said, though, I find the revenants to be great for a
> story, and a good part of the WoD. But they need to be held on a
> tight leash.
Revenants should just be hereditary Ghouls (which they are) with
starting Disciplines of 1 Dot (just like any other Ghoul) and a
dependence on Kindred Vitae (just like any other Ghoul). They can keep
their special families and weaknesses to make up for the fact that they
have a much larger selection of Disciplines than most other Ghouls.
Perhaps they actually only pay in-Clan costs for their three favorites,
even though they start with only 1 Dot (barring the use of Freebies!).
Of course, in this last case, normal ghouls should only spend
out-of-Clan costs for Disciplines as the jump from the Storytellers
Handbook costs to the those for Revenants is HIDEOUSLY unfair to the
'normal' Ghouls.
Besides the Tzimisce are the LAST Clan who would allow a group
of Retainers to gain their powers and no longer need their Blood!
Ian Turner.
al...@magna.com.au
Ian Turner wrote:
>
> Araknid wrote:
(snip lots scarey munchkin stuff)
>
> Still not enough!
> a) was born an unknowing Fianna Kinfolk amongst the Phuri Dae
> Gypsy Family (pick one cool power that YOU get to write up and the
> ability to make Magical items with Draba). Had Faith and / or Numina!
!
(Snip penultimate munchkinoid!)
> i) Player was throttled to death by indignant ST who has just
> finished Chapter Two of his history and sees him bringing in the second
> crate of character sheet! The world is saved.
>
> I forgot the Revenant bit! Are there any Gypsy Revenants? Can
> Mokole/Corax/whatever Kinfolk use the Skindancer Rite? Can one use
> Ancestral Memory/Past Life/Mnesis to access the powers of True Magick
> that a Kinfolk ancestor had? What if it was a Bane Child? Hmm...
>
> Ian Turner.
For the final touch you can read the article on BJ Zanzibar's page about
what happens if the mage drinks the Hearts Blood as described in the
DSotBH. Sort of an uberghoul living vampire. And it's written up real
plausibly, too.
Damian
James Bardin
> > I forgot the Revenant bit! Are there any Gypsy Revenants? Can
> > Mokole/Corax/whatever Kinfolk use the Skindancer Rite? Can one use
> > Ancestral Memory/Past Life/Mnesis to access the powers of True Magick
> > that a Kinfolk ancestor had? What if it was a Bane Child? Hmm...
enemies of the Wyrm. The only wereling who might do it is the Ananasi,
and I can't think of HOW they would do it. I doubt that Past Life and
other such "remembering" abilities would give you True Magick, since it
doesn't impart Sphere knowledge, only the memory of what was done. Of
course, this is open to interpretation; I am only speaking of MY
Chronicle, which would be the worse for wear if this was allowed...