Melee combat in the Storyteller system
Joshua Knorr
It's not broken, but it sure as hell isn't working very effectively for me.
The problem is this: one of the players in my troupe is playing a Euthanatos
who is designed to be very, *very* good in combat. Thus, she's got things
like Dexterity 4, Melee 4 (with a specialty in knife fighting), a fairly
wide variety of sharp pointy things designed to make enemies bleed....
Problem is that under standard Storyteller combat rules, the number of
successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage roll.
Since the character in question only has Strength 2, once you factor in soak
she barely manages to scratch an opponent in 1-on-1 combat. Something seems
wrong here...
So I've decided to hack around with the melee combat system a little.
Anyone have something that's worked successfully for them?
--
Joshua Knorr
"Man makes his own world, or is crushed by the worlds of others."
S/MIME & HTML supported.
Ryan Stoddart
Joshua Knorr wrote:
>
>
> Problem is that under standard Storyteller combat rules, the number of
> successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage roll.
> Since the character in question only has Strength 2, once you factor in soak
> she barely manages to scratch an opponent in 1-on-1 combat. Something seems
> wrong here...
>
> So I've decided to hack around with the melee combat system a little.
> Anyone have something that's worked successfully for them?
> --
> Joshua Knorr
> "Man makes his own world, or is crushed by the worlds of others."
> S/MIME & HTML supported.
Well what I've done is modified the combat rules a little, making them a bit
more satisfying to those melee and brawl fans. I modified the system as
follows:
In order to make combat more fitting with the rest of the Storyteller dice
systems, the damage pool is determined on the basis that 3 is a complete
success. Thus for each die on a melee roll under 3 you remove a die from the
damage pool. For each success above a 3 you add a die to the damage pool. Just
a plain roll of three does normal damage.
Fairly simple, but it adds an interesting twist to the system. Hope that helps.
-Ryan Stoddart
Kristy J. Wiland
SOlution.. have the Euth. come up with some kind of Rote.. Entropy
and something.. enchant the knife.. so that because she is such a
good fighter she "coincidentally" always strikes a vital organ or
vulnerable spot either increasing the damage pool or decreasing her
targets soak by X. Entropy and Life maybe? (Don't know MAge *TOO*
well)
-wascal.. Malkavian Guraul Abomination with Wabbit totem.
Greg Shetler
Joshua Knorr wrote:
>
> It's not broken, but it sure as hell isn't working very effectively for me.
> So I've decided to hack around with the melee combat system a little.
> Anyone have something that's worked successfully for them?
I'm not sure I understand the problem. If she has Dex 4, Melee 4, with
Str 2, and is using a fighting knife, she should be able to do the
following:
4 attacks with 2 dice apiece. On average, either 3 or 4 of those
attacks will hit. Average damage will be 2 per attack. Average human
has 2 STA with which to soak, and on average will get soak 1 HL per
roll.
Thus, *on average*, with normal human opponents, this combat artist will
do 4 damage in 3 seconds. That is enough to put the average person
down, bleeding to death.
The combat artist can do as much as 16 in that first round, as well.
Moreover, note that the use of specialties allows rerolls of 10's.
Finally, if the combat artist targets special places, she will not only
"do damage", but can also incapacitate without having to do 7 HL's.
Take out the eyes, perhaps (1/2 to 1 HL apiece, maybe?). Punch a hole
in the carotid, for higher bleeding rate. Hamstringing is nice.
Cutting above the eyes, to blind less permanently. Aim for the heart -
using the staking rules, the heart will be pierced with less than a
total of 7 HL's, meaning the person is dead after having to do less than
7 HL's.
Suggest these things to her, as well as the use of Dim Mak to add damage
(the number of successes being the number of attacks she can apply the
additional damage to, perhaps). Suggest to her that she get her weapons
"enchanted" (minor Prime effect) so they do aggravated wounds -
unsoakable by mages, normal humans, vampires without Fortitude....
With Dim Mak applying to all 4 attacks, on average she is now doing 12
damage in one round, of which 4 will be soaked (on average) - the normal
human is mincemeat.
Was this not her intent?
Lastly, point out that if she *really* wants a combat monster, it needs
some strength, too. That's why martial artists train not only for
speed, but also for power. At 3 STR, all that damage becomes
considerably more....
Have fun!
Greg
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Joshua Knorr wrote:
> The problem is this: one of the players in my troupe is playing a
> Euthanatos who is designed to be very, *very* good in combat... she's
> got things like Dexterity 4, Melee 4 (specialty in knife fighting)...
Like so many of these questions, there are (at least) two answers:
(1) The system needs modification; add 'to hit' successes onto melee
damage rolls. This wouldn't necessarily be my first choice, though.
(2) The system is okay (in this case), because you're not using it the
way it was meant. The Euthanatos in your example above could,
conceivably, split her dice pool into 4 strikes (8, if you use the
'Double Strike' knife specialty in _Vampire Players Guide_)... and,
statistically, carve his/her opponents into ribbons. Remember she
gets a full knife damage dice pool (Str + 1) for _every_ hit on
which she registers at least one success; working with close-combat
2-dice pools (four strikes in one turn), she's looking at six or
nine damage dice as a rule. It gets even sicker (twelve or so) if
you do the eight-strike thing -- and that's before poison, magick,
Willpower for autosuccess, and so on and so forth. (If memory
serves, there's a scene depicting this very thing starring Lou
Diamond Phillips in John Woo's latest shebang, _The Big Hit_. It
looked pretty cool in the preview, anyway.)
I'm not sure if two-weaponed fighting is detailed in WW canon (can't
remember at present) -- I generally add one die 'to hit' to represent
a significant increase in attack flexibility which would be more of an
in-game bonus were it not offset by equally significant awkwardness and
unfamiliarity.
-- S. Skoog
blak...@technologist.com
In article <EpJGs...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
"Joshua Knorr" <j-k...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> It's not broken, but it sure as hell isn't working very effectively for me.
>
> like Dexterity 4, Melee 4 (with a specialty in knife fighting), a fairly
> wide variety of sharp pointy things designed to make enemies bleed....
>
> successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage roll.
> Since the character in question only has Strength 2, once you factor in soak
> she barely manages to scratch an opponent in 1-on-1 combat. Something seems
> wrong here...
>
There are still a few things the character can do within the system to
up her damage a bit. The most obvious for this character is Dim Mak -
it adds HLs to the damage you roll, so it's nothing to sneeze at.
The other, is that with a dice pool of 8, you have some extra flexibility.
If you also have a good dodge, you can do attack/dodge combinations, you
may not be doing all that much damage, but you'll live long enough to
finish your oponent off. Or, you can take multiple attacks, if you have
a blade in each hand, for instance. Combine that with the Dim Mak, and
you're dishing out some real damage.
Also, though I, personally hate this one, since BoM, Agg damage is
unsoakable in the standard Mage rules (see the Detestable Mage FAQ).
All she needs to do is get her favourite pointy things Enchanted
(Prime 2 - Enchant Weapon) and they do Agg (and, thus unsoakable)
damage. Combine this with Dim Mak and dice-pool-splitting, and she'll
be dropping oponents in one turn flat.
Other options, which may or may not apply, would be upping STR (either
with exp, or Life Magick). Using Entropy 2 to make 'random factors'
increase your victims difficulties. Use Entropy 3 to trash your
target's armor (or Entropy 2 to 'randomly' hit only unarmored areas).
Use Correspondence to do 'blink' teleports to increase your own dodge,
Time to get extra actions, Forces to increase damage, Mattter to crack
armor, etc...
> So I've decided to hack around with the melee combat system a little.
> Anyone have something that's worked successfully for them?
> --
I've toyed with the idea of just letting successes add to melee and/or
brawl damage, but it takes away from the lethality for firearms, and,
melee can already generate a lot of damage. Sure, the system looks broken
for the 'melee expert' with STR 2 and a knife, but what about the characters
with STR 4 or 5 using axes or Katanas? Should they be adding successes
to 8 or 10d damage pools? What about those darn Garou with thier Grand
Klaives...
One possibility is to use 'to hit' successes instead of STR with 'finness'
weapons like a rapier or stiletto. Instead of STR +2, she'd do 2d+
successes (in her case, she averages what? 4 or 5 successes in melee).
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/ '-|---
|
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Joshua Knorr
blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
<6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Also, though I, personally hate this one, since BoM, Agg damage is
>unsoakable in the standard Mage rules (see the Detestable Mage FAQ).
This brings up another fuzzy issue in Storyteller combat - aggravated
damage.
What does agg. damage is fairly clear - Kindred & Garou fangs/claws, fire &
sunlight (for Kindred), silver (for Garou), Primed weapons, cold iron (for
Fae). What about the attacks of other supernatural entities? (i.e. Umbrood)
What's less clear (at least to me) is who can soak what aggravated damage.
Kindred can soak agg. damage if they have Fortitude, Garou can soak agg.
damage (except silver, although I believe there is a Gift that gets around
this). Mages can soak agg. damage if they've been augmented beforehand with
a Life Effect.
I'm more interested in the soaking abilities of various antagonists. What
about MiBs, HIT Marks, Superiors, and Umbrood? Off the top of my head I'd
say that HIT Marks can soak agg. damage (Primium body armor), but no one
else does. If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
Patrick Baldwin
blak...@technologist.com wrote:
>
>I've toyed with the idea of just letting successes add to melee and/or
>brawl damage, but it takes away from the lethality for firearms, and,
>melee can already generate a lot of damage. Sure, the system looks broken
>for the 'melee expert' with STR 2 and a knife, but what about the characters
>with STR 4 or 5 using axes or Katanas? Should they be adding successes
>to 8 or 10d damage pools? What about those darn Garou with thier Grand
>Klaives...
>
I've played with this a good bit myself. I don't mind combat, it
happens, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but it's a fact of
life in th WOD. However, I think it should be dangerous enough that
people actually fear dying or being seriously injured. After all, that
is part of why it happens less often in real life than in WOD games,
IMHO.
Keeping that in mind, I use Werewold 1st ed. firearms rules.
The guns do the number listed as automatic levels, not dice.
And I add successes.
The melee system certainly does look broken to me. If the Str 2
melee expert stabs me and gets a lot of succeses on the hit roll
, under the normal system, he can't kill me with one stab. He
can't even injure me to the "fall down and bleed" level,
So...
Brawling and meleee also add successes, but we're experimenting with
every two successes adding a wound level, similar to Shadowrun's
system. It seems to work well for our purposes.
If this allows ungodly amounts of damage, and indeed, that Garou
in Crinos with his greatsword can inflict truely obscene amounts of
damage, well, I don't mind that. If a nine foot, 400 pound engine
of destruction whaps you in the dead on in the head with a six
foot lenght of a few pounds of vaguely edged metal, you're probably
going to die. That's combat.
You can get hurt, or die. That's why sane people avoid it. It's
also why the people who don't will probably die eventually, look at
the way gang violence works.
-Patrick Baldwin
GryMor
In article <EpL4I...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
Joshua Knorr <j-k...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>I'm more interested in the soaking abilities of various antagonists. What
>about MiBs, HIT Marks, Superiors, and Umbrood? Off the top of my head I'd
>say that HIT Marks can soak agg. damage (Primium body armor), but no one
>else does. If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
>spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
--
Steve 'GryMor' Metke bani Virtual Adepts me...@cc.wwu.edu
GothCode 3.1 GoCS6$Ma4 TCyNrJt7 PGDeMo cDbrNrB-w7BM V5s
M4 ZGo!!TeMe C9o a19( 35) n4 b56 H178 g6L0995 m@Z3 w6L v5R
r3sE p1ZZZZZz D44! h5 sM10M SsYy k3 N0890EH RdM LusWA8
Jonathan Rowe
>Problem is that under standard Storyteller combat rules, the number of
>successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage roll.
Without getting into the grits of that particular chaacter you
described, I know exactly what you mean. Here's a cute house rule that
solves the problem without upsetting the apple cart...
Make the difficulty of a damage roll dependent on the number of
successes rolled on a combat roll.
So, if you roll 1-2 successes (after Dodges), your damage roll is
difficulty 8.
If you roll 3-4 successes (default), your damage roll is difficulty 6.
With 5+ successes, damage is rolled at difficulty 4.
The implications should be obvious. A bumbing strong-man with a Str of
5 but a Dex+Melee dice pool of 3 will probably connect as often as
anybody else, but won't transfer too much of that hefty damage dice pool
into wounds. A precise fencer with Str 2 but Dex+Melee of 8 will
connect with lots of success, won't roll many dice for damage but will
transform most of those d10s into real wounds.
I find this particular house rule is very useful for keeping werewolves
in line (they have huge Str rolls for damage but usually have mediocre
combat rolls to hit). It also makes it worthwhile for PCs to put dots
into Dex or Melee and create skillful rather than brutal fighters.
--
Jon Rowe
Valkyrie Magazine
"Mundus Nihil Pulcherrimum"
AdamRLee
>
>I've toyed with the idea of just letting successes add to melee and/or
>brawl damage, but it takes away from the lethality for firearms, and,
>melee can already generate a lot of damage. Sure, the system looks broken
>for the 'melee expert' with STR 2 and a knife, but what about the characters
>with STR 4 or 5 using axes or Katanas?
Try adding damage dice for successes above four or five. Also take full
advantage of the called shot rules. (with a knife at diff 4, adding a few
difficulty points shouldn't be too crippling)
Adam
William H. Stoddard
In article <ze3hOKA2...@troll-ink.demon.co.uk>, Jonathan Rowe
<valk...@troll-ink.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <EpJGs...@midway.uchicago.edu>, Joshua Knorr <j-
> kn...@uchicago.edu> writes
> >Problem is that under standard Storyteller combat rules, the number of
> >successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage roll.
>
> Without getting into the grits of that particular chaacter you
> described, I know exactly what you mean. Here's a cute house rule that
> solves the problem without upsetting the apple cart...
>
> Make the difficulty of a damage roll dependent on the number of
> successes rolled on a combat roll.
>
> So, if you roll 1-2 successes (after Dodges), your damage roll is
> difficulty 8.
>
> If you roll 3-4 successes (default), your damage roll is difficulty 6.
>
> With 5+ successes, damage is rolled at difficulty 4.
>
An alternative fix that I haven't tested yet (I'm not currently running
anything in Storyteller) would go like this:
On one success, you had a glancing blow: no more than 1 damage level gets
through after soaking.
On two to four successes, you had a solid blow and soak in the normal fashion.
On five or more successes, you hit a soft point (throat, abdomen, groin,
eyeslit in helmet, that sort of thing) and the damage can't be soaked at
all.
I do see the point of your mechanic, and it would certainly accomplish the
effect you want, but I'm not sure I don't like the purely qualitative
impact of mine a bit better, at least in Storyteller. But I won't really
know until I try it out.
Bill Stoddard
--
William H. Stoddard whs...@primenet.net
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.
(T. S. Eliot, "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats")
John or Christine Thompson
William H. Stoddard wrote in message ...
>In article <ze3hOKA2...@troll-ink.demon.co.uk>, Jonathan Rowe
><valk...@troll-ink.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <EpJGs...@midway.uchicago.edu>, Joshua Knorr <j-
>> kn...@uchicago.edu> writes
>> >Problem is that under standard Storyteller combat rules, the number of
>> >successes rolled on a melee attack do not "roll over" onto the damage
roll.
As I've been reading this thread I've just had an idea. How about allowing
the option of using combat skill as the base damage instead of strength? Or,
if you don't want to completely discount strength, use the average of
strength and skill. This way low strength, high skill characters can still
do respectable damage. At the same time, it simulates the clumsy strikes of
an unskilled brute. For someone with both skill and strength, watch out!
Now, I've not playtested this, but what do people think about it?
John W. Thompson
Backstage at the Theatre of the Mind
http://www.galactic-ent.com/backstage
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blak...@technologist.com
> <6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Also, though I, personally hate this one, since BoM, Agg damage is
> >unsoakable in the standard Mage rules (see the Detestable Mage FAQ).
>
> This brings up another fuzzy issue in Storyteller combat - aggravated
> damage.
>
Believe me, I didn't want to bring it up, but it was relevant, oh well...
Personally, I can't stand the current ruling. I assume that most damage
(agg or not) is soakable. Exceptions: Vamps vs fire/sunlight, Garou
vs Silver, and Direct Life Magick (which I have resisted by Willpower
instead of Soaked).
> What does agg. damage is fairly clear - Kindred & Garou fangs/claws, fire &
> sunlight (for Kindred), silver (for Garou), Primed weapons, cold iron (for
> Fae). What about the attacks of other supernatural entities? (i.e. Umbrood)
>
Most have some capacity to cause Agg damage.
> What's less clear (at least to me) is who can soak what aggravated damage.
> Kindred can soak agg. damage if they have Fortitude, Garou can soak agg.
> damage (except silver, although I believe there is a Gift that gets around
> this).
There is the Merit 'Silver Tolerance' - but I can't think of a Gift that
does it specifically (There's one that turns your body to silver, that'd
pretty much have to make you imune, too).
> Mages can soak agg. damage if they've been augmented beforehand with
> a Life Effect.
Which I'd really like to see the specific system for... all that the
Evil Mage FAQ has to say is that it takes Life Magick to soak Agg...
> I'm more interested in the soaking abilities of various antagonists. What
> about MiBs, HIT Marks, Superiors, and Umbrood? Off the top of my head I'd
> say that HIT Marks can soak agg. damage (Primium body armor), but no one
> else does. If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
> spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
Umbrood don't soak normal damage either, unless they have Materialized
into a form with Stamina or have the right spirit Charm.
> --
blak...@technologist.com
In article <6e2guc$qqo$1...@ra.cc.wwu.edu>,
me...@cc.wwu.edu (GryMor) wrote:
>
> In article <EpL4I...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> Joshua Knorr <j-k...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >I'm more interested in the soaking abilities of various antagonists. What
> >about MiBs, HIT Marks, Superiors, and Umbrood? Off the top of my head I'd
> >say that HIT Marks can soak agg. damage (Primium body armor), but no one
> >else does. If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
> >spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
>
I understand Garou soak spirit damage with Gnosis, but Spirit don't
actually soak at all. Which is to the good, since they can have
20, 30, 60+ Power...
John or Christine Thompson
blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
<6e40n8$sb6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>There is the Merit 'Silver Tolerance' - but I can't think of a Gift that
>does it specifically
I believe the Gift is called Lunas Armor. I'm not sure what it's classified
under but I'm pretty sure about the name.
John W. Thompson
GryMor
In article <6e415s$sjt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<blak...@technologist.com> wrote:
>I understand Garou soak spirit damage with Gnosis, but Spirit don't
>actually soak at all. Which is to the good, since they can have
>20, 30, 60+ Power...
I thought spirits soaked spirit damge with Gnosis... I'll have to look.
Zoran Bekric
In article <6e4af0$1q44$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>, "John or
Christine Thompson" <GOBAC...@prodigy.net> wrote:
Luna's Armor is a Level Two Gift available to Children of Gaia, Shadow
Lords and Silver Fangs. The Garou spends the appropriate points, rolls
Stamina + Survival (difficulty 6) and, for each success scored, adds one
to their Stamina for purposes of soaking Damage *including* that from
Silver. The effect lasts for the scene.
Regards,
Zoran
--
Zoran Bekric
(zbe...@hempseed.com)
ars longa, vita brevis
Marty Gleason
>In article <6e415s$sjt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <blak...@technologist.com> wrote:
>>I understand Garou soak spirit damage with Gnosis, but Spirit don't
>>actually soak at all. Which is to the good, since they can have
>>20, 30, 60+ Power...
>
>I thought spirits soaked spirit damge with Gnosis... I'll have to look.
Spirits cannot soak unless it is granted to them by a charm, such as
Armor, or they are they are materialized, then combat continues as
normal. Aggravated damage subtracts from the power ratings as well as
health levels while spirits are on the other side of the Shadow.
But if it don't fit your story, change it!
--
Marty Gleason: Beloit College Psych and History Major:
------------------------
Padriac Borou, Howls-For-Gaia, Alpha of the Silver Pack of Chicago,
Rigfennidi of the Pack o'Discord, Sept of Dana's Laugh, Son o'Brian Mac
Cennedi, Athro Lupus Fianna Ahroun of the Grandchildren of Fionn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always role playing, never a flame
Marduk Kurios
Here's what we do for brawl/melee:
-Determine your combat pool (dex + brawl/melee)
-Determine your damage pool (str + weapon)
- roll to hit (vs. 6)
- opponent may choose to:
- block (dex + brawl/melee against a 5)
- dodge (dex + dodge against a 6)
- counterattack (dex + brawl/melee against a 6)
- roll defense
Subtract the defenders successes from the attackers successes.
If the result is positive then:
- You need one success to hit.
- all other net successes(anything beyond the first)
can be used to modify your damage pool in the following ways:
- automatic sucesses
- automatic failures
- roll as normal
- this modification cannot increase the number of damage dice.
Ie. if your str is 2 and you are stabbing with a knife, you can
do up to 4 levels of damage (str+2). If you rolled 7 successes to hit
(what a good knife fighter you are!) and your opponent rolled 1 success to
block, you have 6 net successes. The first goes to actually hit, leaving
you 5 net. Your max damage pool is 4, therefore you can choose:
- up to 4 automatic successes (really good hit!)
- up to 4 automatic failures (pulling your punch)
- roll the 4 damage dice
- any combination of the above
Therefore, your hit roll affects your damage, but cannot make a
dagger do 12 levels of damage (unless you have a str of 10). The 5th
success is discarded.
If the attacker had rolled 3 successes, then there would have been 2
net successes. The first allows the hit. The second can be applied as
an automatic success, failure or roll to one of the dice in the damage
pool. Since your damage pool is 4 dice, you could take one automatic
success and roll 3 dice, one automatic failure and roll 3 dice or simply
roll 4 dice.
If the result of the attack favors the defender (attackers successes -
defenders successes is a negative number).
- if the defender was blocking or dodging then the attack misses.
- if the defender was counterattacking, then the exact same rules as
above apply in order to resolve the damage the defender does. (take net
successes, use 1 for the hit, and the rest to modify the damage roll).
If the result was 0 (attackers successes - defenders succeses = 0) then
the attack bounces and no one gets hurt.
It may seem a little complicated, but once you get it going, you'll see
that it flows quite well.
MK
"...OUCH! Why I oughta pound you!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unsolicitated email with the purpose of selling me a product, service or line
of BS will result in a charge of US$500.00 for grammar checking. No quality of
service is guaranteed. This fee must be remitted within 30 days by certified
funds. This is not a joke.
Marduk Kurios
>
> I'm not sure if two-weaponed fighting is detailed in WW canon (can't
> remember at present) -- I generally add one die 'to hit' to represent
> a significant increase in attack flexibility which would be more of an
> in-game bonus were it not offset by equally significant awkwardness and
> unfamiliarity.
FYI, florentine fighting (two-weaponed fighting) is only effective if
you have trained in it. Having had the opportunity to try this style, as
well as to fight against it (SCA), I have discovered a few things:
- at first your defense and offense generally suck because your
off-hand tends to float there ineffectively. You have to *learn* to use
both hands at once. ( half your dice pool...really!)
- even skilled people have cetain strength/flaws:
- you have a monstrous advantage offensively (I would give 2, maybe
3 dice to strike)
- your defense is weaker (then sword/shield) anyway. If your
opponent attacks you from the start and keeps you (the florentine fighter)
on the defense, you could be in trouble (I would subtract 1/2 dice from
block/defense).
Just my $0.02
MK
"Hey! No fair, he has two swords and all I have is a spoon!"
Marduk Kurios
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joshua Knorr wrote:
> blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
> <6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Also, though I, personally hate this one, since BoM, Agg damage is
> >unsoakable in the standard Mage rules (see the Detestable Mage FAQ).
>
> This brings up another fuzzy issue in Storyteller combat - aggravated
> damage.
>
> What does agg. damage is fairly clear - Kindred & Garou fangs/claws, fire &
> sunlight (for Kindred), silver (for Garou), Primed weapons, cold iron (for
> Fae). What about the attacks of other supernatural entities? (i.e. Umbrood)
Book of Worlds: attacks from umbrood do aggravated damage (also explain
Free the Mad Howlers doing agg.)
>
> What's less clear (at least to me) is who can soak what aggravated damage.
From WW Cannon:
Mages and Humans can soak anything.
Garou soak anything but silver.
Vampires can only soak agg. if they have fortitude. (Suppose this make
up for the fact that they cannot be stunned or knocked unconscious).
> Kindred can soak agg. damage if they have Fortitude, Garou can soak agg.
> damage (except silver, although I believe there is a Gift that gets around
> this). Mages can soak agg. damage if they've been augmented beforehand with
> a Life Effect.
>
That last one is new to me. Check the WoD Combat or the Mage:TA book.
They can soak anything. They just can't heal agg magically without some
heavy-duty rotes.
> I'm more interested in the soaking abilities of various antagonists. What
> about MiBs, HIT Marks, Superiors, and Umbrood? Off the top of my head I'd
> say that HIT Marks can soak agg. damage (Primium body armor), but no one
> else does. If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
> spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
>
Genral rule that I live by: if it doesn't say to the contrary, give 'em
the soak dice.
In other words, use the no-soak as the exception, rather than the rule.
MK
"...GET THAT FLAME AWAY FROM ME!!! hey...wait a sec... I'm not a vampire.
Gimme that!"
Brian Thomas Habing
Marduk Kurios <ma...@alcor.concordia.ca> writes:
> Mages and Humans can soak anything.
> Garou soak anything but silver.
> Vampires can only soak agg. if they have fortitude. (Suppose this make
>up for the fact that they cannot be stunned or knocked unconscious).
>
Actually, I think it's more due to the fact that WW realized how stupid
it was to not let people soak agg damage and so gave it to the other
sups... (vamp was out first...)
> Genral rule that I live by: if it doesn't say to the contrary, give 'em
>the soak dice.
> In other words, use the no-soak as the exception, rather than the rule.
And the vampire is really abundantly clear on the issue...
-bh
blak...@technologist.com
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.980318...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
Marduk Kurios <ma...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joshua Knorr wrote:
>
> > blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
> > <6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >Also, though I, personally hate this one, since BoM, Agg damage is
> > >unsoakable in the standard Mage rules (see the Detestable Mage FAQ).
> >
> > This brings up another fuzzy issue in Storyteller combat - aggravated
> > damage.
Umbrood)
>
> Book of Worlds: attacks from umbrood do aggravated damage (also explain
> Free the Mad Howlers doing agg.)
>
Settles that one.
> >
> > What's less clear (at least to me) is who can soak what aggravated damage.
> From WW Cannon:
>
> Mages and Humans can soak anything.
> Garou soak anything but silver.
> Vampires can only soak agg. if they have fortitude. (Suppose this make
> up for the fact that they cannot be stunned or knocked unconscious).
>
Well, the cannon's been loaded with grapeshot (as much as I hate it)...
> > Kindred can soak agg. damage if they have Fortitude, Garou can soak agg.
> > damage (except silver, although I believe there is a Gift that gets around
> > this). Mages can soak agg. damage if they've been augmented beforehand
with
> > a Life Effect.
> >
>
> That last one is new to me. Check the WoD Combat or the Mage:TA book.
> They can soak anything. They just can't heal agg magically without some
> heavy-duty rotes.
>
It's in The Thrice Dam'ned Mage FAQ:
http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/MageFAQ.html
Mages with Life 3+ can soak Agg damage, though the system to do so
(just life? just stamina? just successes on the rote?) isn't given.
They still need to use Vulgar Magick to heal Agg damage, though healing
overall is easier in Mage 2nd.
> Genral rule that I live by: if it doesn't say to the contrary, give 'em
> the soak dice.
>
> In other words, use the no-soak as the exception, rather than the rule.
>
> MK
I concur. The White Wolf Cannon will have about the same effect on
player characters as a real cannon would have on the players... ;)
Using non-soakable Agg as the occasional horror-attack (ie Garou vs
silver, Vamps vs the sun) has value, making all Agg non-soakable
makes the game a bloodfest.
The only other exception I regularly make are effects like Rip
the Man Body - I don't allow a soak, *but* I do allow Willpower
to resist the effect - which is usually more effective anyway.
Stryver
I very much agree, but would like to add a small comment. The off-hand
weapon need not be a sword. different modifiers would be needed for
different off-hand weapons. I prefer a Madu, which would improve attack
some over a sword and board, would decrease defense a little, but not as
much as a sword, and would increase you perception. (shields take up so much
space) I also know people who have used various odd and assorted off hand
things, most often a halberd/glaive which would function similarly to a
madu.
Sorry, I couldna let you leave out my fav. weapon... *grins*
Stryver
Marduk Kurios wrote in message ...
Hans Sjunnesson
The Werewolf rulebook clearly states that a Werewolf can soak non-agg.
health-levels "just like that" and they heal agg. with some rest.
Picture this then.
*A bunch of fomori are standing in a circle around this Silver-Fang.
*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything.
*The Fomori beats the crap out of the SF. (giving him several health-levels
of damage.)
*Since they were all non-aggravated the Silver-Fang manages to take a few
steps back and in a matter of seconds heal all the non-aggravated damage.
Sound ok, right. Then try this scenario out.
*A bunch of fomori and a Black Spiral Dancer, are standing in a circle
around this Silver-Fang.
*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything. But the BSP has
some nasty claws.
*The Fomori beats the crap out of the SF.(giving him several health-levels
of damage.)
*The health-levels were non-agg. but the BSP gently scratched the cheek of
the SF with his claw, making an aggravated wound, wich the SF can't heal
back from, so he's stuck on that health level althoug the wounds "above"
that are exactly the same as in the previous scenario.
Has anyone ever bumped into this problem and gotten around it or something
please let me know.
BTW, I'm new to this newsgroup-stuff so there is probobly tons of "errors"
in this post, but I don't give a hoot. :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
Yeah, yeah. I've seen people have these things at the end of the postings,
so I'll have one too.
I go by the name MaximumSwing, feel free to email me at:
maximu...@nospamyahoo.com you know what to remove to mail me.
AdamRLee
>Sound ok, right. Then try this scenario out.
>*A bunch of fomori and a Black Spiral Dancer, are standing in a circle
>around this Silver-Fang.
>*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything. But the BSP has
>some nasty claws.
>*The Fomori beats the crap out of the SF.(giving him several health-levels
>of damage.)
>*The health-levels were non-agg. but the BSP gently scratched the cheek of
>the SF with his claw, making an aggravated wound, wich the SF can't heal
>back from, so he's stuck on that health level althoug the wounds "above"
>that are exactly the same as in the previous scenario.
I'm under the impression that Agg wounds go on at the top. unless of course
one is dealt at incapacitated in which case it is fatal. So your silver fang
would have one aggravated wound (the bruised level) and a bunch of regular
wounds, even if the agg. wound was dealt when the SF was at wounded.
Subsequent aggs go on at hurt, injured, etc. Taking 8 is fatal (except rage
healing) but 7 and a million normal wounds (exaggeration alert) is not (to
werewolves and vampires at least, mages and changelings are only simple
mortals)
Adam
apollyon
Marduk Kurios wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joshua Knorr wrote:
>
> > blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
> > <6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
> >
>
> the soak dice.
But doesn't the Werewolf book state clearly in the spirit combat rules
that spirits do not soak? They have X number of Power Points and they
do not regain them from soaking or anything else. Right?
apollyon
Jonathan Rowe
In article <35130...@d2o21.telia.com>, Hans Sjunnesson
<maximu...@yahoo.com> writes
>Sound ok, right. Then try this scenario out.
>*A bunch of fomori and a Black Spiral Dancer, are standing in a circle
>around this Silver-Fang.
>*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything. But the BSP has
>some nasty claws.
>*The Fomori beats the crap out of the SF.(giving him several health-levels
>of damage.)
>*The health-levels were non-agg. but the BSP gently scratched the cheek of
>the SF with his claw, making an aggravated wound, wich the SF can't heal
>back from, so he's stuck on that health level althoug the wounds "above"
>that are exactly the same as in the previous scenario.
>
>please let me know.
The aggravated wopund is unhealable, but it's relegated to the "top"
(ie. Bruised) of the Health Chart - all the non-aggravated wounds get
healed at the normal rate.
Marty Gleason
Spirits without the armor charm, or materillized spirits w/o stamina do
not soak.
So far, everything I've read says only supernatural characters get soak
dice, and only if they have the right advantages.
--
Marty Gleason: Beloit College Psych and History Major:
--
Padriac Borou, Howls-For-Gaia, Athro Lupus
Fianna Ahroun, Grandchildren of Fionn
Marduk Kurios
On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, apollyon wrote:
> Marduk Kurios wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joshua Knorr wrote:
> >
> > > blak...@technologist.com wrote in message
> > > <6e24o9$h5d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > > If Umbrood can't soak agg. damage, does that mean that when two
> > > spirits fight each other there is no soaking?
> > >
> >
> > Genral rule that I live by: if it doesn't say to the contrary, give 'em
> > the soak dice.
>
> But doesn't the Werewolf book state clearly in the spirit combat rules
> that spirits do not soak? They have X number of Power Points and they
> do not regain them from soaking or anything else. Right?
>
Yep. It does say that. Therefore (unless a spirit is manifesting) it
doesn't soak.
MK
"Ooow! Hey, that stings!"
Greg Shetler
Hans Sjunnesson wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever bumped into this problem and gotten around it or something
> please let me know.
>
Um. I have never run into anybody feeling that wounds have to be healed
in the inverse order in which they were received.
That is, since the werewolf has (say) 4 normal wounds and one aggravated
wounds, there is nothing to keep the werewolf from healing the normal
ones, leaving just the one agg wound. A person with one wound is
'Bruised'.
On the character sheet, as the normal wounds are healed, the aggravated
wound 'moves up' on the HL track, until it is all that is left.
YMMV, of course. If it's a house rule, though, you can probably expect
to see it abused in just this fashion....
Greg
Lord Draycom
if you take all your health levels of damage in one turn without soaking in,
and the last hit past incapacitated was aggravated and the werewolf didn't
soak it, it dies.
Hans Sjunnesson wrote in message <35130...@d2o21.telia.com>...
>The Werewolf rulebook clearly states that a Werewolf can soak non-agg.
>health-levels "just like that" and they heal agg. with some rest.
> Picture this then.
>*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything.
>of damage.)
>*Since they were all non-aggravated the Silver-Fang manages to take a few
>steps back and in a matter of seconds heal all the non-aggravated damage.
>
>*A bunch of fomori and a Black Spiral Dancer, are standing in a circle
>around this Silver-Fang.
>*The fomori are all armed with clubs, not claws or anything. But the BSP
has
>some nasty claws.
>*The Fomori beats the crap out of the SF.(giving him several health-levels
>of damage.)
>*The health-levels were non-agg. but the BSP gently scratched the cheek of
>the SF with his claw, making an aggravated wound, wich the SF can't heal
>back from, so he's stuck on that health level althoug the wounds "above"
>that are exactly the same as in the previous scenario.
>
>please let me know.
>
Peacemaker
Lord Draycom (lord_d...@juno.com) wrote:
: if you take all your health levels of damage in one turn without soaking in,
: and the last hit past incapacitated was aggravated and the werewolf didn't
: soak it, it dies.
I got a problem with that. As I understand it, when the 'wolf takes (for
eg) six levels of non-aggy, then some aggy that puts him beyond
incapacitated, he enters unconsciousness. The non-aggy levels then heal up
slowly (1 per hour I think), during which time of course said fomori are
in a prime position to make sure the beasty is well and truly dead (eg,
decap.). HOWEVER unless ALL health levels are aggravated, the wolf won't
die from the wounds alone.
############### Pax queritur in bello
# Peacemaker #
############### a.k.a. cmi...@metz.une.edu.au
http://metz.une.edu.au/~cmiller
GryMor
In article <6f7b15$aep$2...@gruvel.une.edu.au>,
Peacemaker <cmi...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
>I got a problem with that. As I understand it, when the 'wolf takes (for
>eg) six levels of non-aggy, then some aggy that puts him beyond
>incapacitated, he enters unconsciousness. The non-aggy levels then heal up
>slowly (1 per hour I think), during which time of course said fomori are
>in a prime position to make sure the beasty is well and truly dead (eg,
>decap.). HOWEVER unless ALL health levels are aggravated, the wolf won't
>die from the wounds alone.
It's also at this time that Rage healing and battle scars come into play
:) Fun Fun Fun (Ever had a charecter with 3 pierced lungs?)
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <6eptsp$e9n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> blak...@technologist.com writes:
>It's in The Thrice Dam'ned Mage FAQ:
>http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/MageFAQ.html
>Mages with Life 3+ can soak Agg damage, though the system to do so
>(just life? just stamina? just successes on the rote?) isn't given.
>They still need to use Vulgar Magick to heal Agg damage, though healing
>overall is easier in Mage 2nd.
I use a Life 3 Better Body rote - you can soak Agg with a number of dice
equal to Successes or Stamina, whichever is greater. This is treated as
Vulgar, so you have a point of "permanent" paradox for the duration of the
effect.
>Using non-soakable Agg as the occasional horror-attack (ie Garou vs
>silver, Vamps vs the sun) has value, making all Agg non-soakable
>makes the game a bloodfest.
Really? I made all Agg non-soakable, and it cut down combat by over fifty
percent. The PCs get really *nervous* now when they encounter nastythings.
>The only other exception I regularly make are effects like Rip
>the Man Body - I don't allow a soak, *but* I do allow Willpower
>to resist the effect - which is usually more effective anyway.
I allow Willpower *if* the individual sees it coming.
Anduin
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
> I use a Life 3 Better Body rote - you can soak Agg with a number of dice
> equal to Successes or Stamina, whichever is greater. This is treated as
> Vulgar, so you have a point of "permanent" paradox for the duration of the
> effect.
Better Body is coincidental according to Phil Brucato. It also allows you
to use your existing Stamina to soak.
--
______________________________________________________________________
-Anduin http://home.earthlink.net/~anduin
"Face it, if crime did not pay,
there would be very few criminals."
-Laughton Lewis Burdock
______________________________________________________________________
Brian Thomas Habing
xe...@user2.teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks) writes:
>>Using non-soakable Agg as the occasional horror-attack (ie Garou vs
>>silver, Vamps vs the sun) has value, making all Agg non-soakable
>>makes the game a bloodfest.
>Really? I made all Agg non-soakable, and it cut down combat by over fifty
>percent. The PCs get really *nervous* now when they encounter nastythings.
The problem I find with this is that just makes the whole combat thing
really silly.... not being abole to heal the damage up has usually
made them cautious enough in are games... if we played the no soaking
rule, there wouldn't be any combat at all.
-Brian