[Q]: Pentex ties to the Technocracy?
Gothboy
Euan Kilgour wrote:
>
> I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
> it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
> totally separate entity.in our chronicle, the Technos and Pentex are at odds
technocracy being very weaver like
and pentex working for the wyrm
each sees the other as a minor adversary
not truly understanding the nature or threat the other has
> I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
> campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
> instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
> these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
> in their way.easy
Werewolves(& vampires and wraiths and everything else)
are an afront to the technos paradigm
they shouldn't exist
have some It-X ppls go after the werewolves
or have some progenitors try & capture them for study
hope that helped
l8r
--
Gothboy-------------...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu
Spam Ferryman and Net Wraith Inner Circle Member # 242
"Who is right
Who can tell
And who gives a damn right now."
Joy Division-- Disorder
Darrell Scott Delaney
In article <euan-15119...@130.217.143.165>,
Euan Kilgour <eu...@waikato.ac.nz> wrote:
>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>totally separate entity.
>I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
>campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
>instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
>these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
>in their way.
Well, the Techonocracy likely doesn't care much for either group. On one
hand, Pentex appears to go along with the Technocracy paradigm, but their
overall goals are clearly in line with the Nephandi and their daily
actions subtly sabotage the Technocratic efforts while strengthening the
Nephandi hold on reality. On the other hand, the garou are blatantly
opposed to most everything the Technocracy is trying to promote.
Moreover, they tend to react with all the subtlety of a HIT Mark gone
haywire. Overall, assuming the Technocracy takes a direct interest in the
affairs of these groups, they'd probably see Pentex as the more dangerous
threat, but wouldn't risk the paradigm with an all out slugfest, choosing
instead to try to block off their spirit connections and buy out or shut
down their companies in some way as to not risk the overall economy and
international stability. They might try to use the garou in this effort,
but they'd also try to make sure the garou don't compromise the paradigm
at the same time (ie: minimize garou spirit involvement).
Darrell
--
"There's a divinity that shapes our ends,
Rough-hew them how we will--"
-Hamlet Darrell DeLaney
<gt4...@prism.gatech.edu> <http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt4689g/>
Nyarlathotep
> I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
> it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
> totally separate entity.
My personal veiws run towards the Syndicate having (monatary) interests
tied up in Pentex. NWO would view Pentex as a reality criminal, but would
wait for either Pentex or the Garou to take the other out. Then NWO would
take out the weakened winner of that conflict. Iteration X might use the
Garou as a Beta testing grounds (ie. test the newest version of Hit Marks
on the toughest kid on the block) or the Glass Walkers may do something to
piss these guys off. Void Engineers may hire out for a guide, I mean
Navigator, for a Mission.
The best one though is DNA and the Progenitors. The Progenitors are hot
to try to classify every living thing according to their biological
paradigm and the Garou are the first ones on their list. It-X would help
with retrieval (so they can test the IX-2000 Plasma Cannon with Particle
Matrix) and the NWO would give nominal intelligence reports. DNA is as I
understand it, bankrolled by the Syndicate.
Another option is to have the Garou discover Barabbi among the
Syndicate's ranks. I doubt the Syndicate's going to listen to a bunch of
slavering animals. Or have some Syndicate Barabbi trick the Garou players
into making them think they are normal Syndicate. From there the fireworks
should begin...
Pentex could also being hiding some IT-X or Progenitor Barabbi
(independent contractors: I mean just where did you think Pentex got that
Staple Gun from?) to make weapons or Superior Fomori for the Special
Projects Division. The possibilities are endless.
Just be thankful the Red Talons know nothing of the Technocracy,
otherwise there would be one fewer tribe running around...
> I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
> campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
> instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
> these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
> in their way.
Have them go against the Weaver or be tricked into it. It should be fun...
--
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"Never ask that question..."--Kosh
Euan Kilgour
I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
totally separate entity.
I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
Paul F. Strack
Euan Kilgour (eu...@waikato.ac.nz) wrote:
: I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
: it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
: totally separate entity.
I think that it is very unlikely that the Technocracy and Pentex are
actually allies. Superficially, they have the same goals (take over the
world). In practice they are diametrically opposed. One of the
Technocracy's major goals is to eject malevolent entities (such as the
Wyrm) from reality. In fact, if the two organizations knew about each
other, they would likely fight tooth and nail.
Since there is no evidence that Pentex and the Technocracy are engaged in
an ugly battle, they must have very little information about each other.
Pentex employs a handful of Nephandi, who have told them a little about
the Technomages who hunt them. Pentex has no real inkling of the extent
of the Technocracy's power, though. The Wyrm-spirits behind Pentex
probably *do* have an inkling, but they don't share that information with
their pawns. The spirits do encourage their servants to be subtle, and
secretly steer Pentex away from Technocratic strongholds.
The Syndicate probably does have some idea that Pentex exists, and even
that it has some supernatural ties. The Technocracy probably knows little
more than that, however. The Technocracy hesitates to move against Pentex
for several reasons:
1) Pentex is a morass of holding companies, and it is difficult to tell
exactly what is and is not a part of Pentex.
2) Pentex is an immense corporate entity and a lynchpin in the world
economy. Damage to Pentex would have tremendous negative repurcutions on
the Techocracy's paradigm.
3) The Technomancer's are more than a little ignorant when it comes to
dealing with spirits, and therefore do not understand the nature and the
seriousness of the threat Pentex poses to the world.
It is possible that the Technocracy will eventually move against Pentex,
but it will do so slowly and cautiously. It is also possible, maybe even
likely, that certain key Syndicate mages have been corrupted by the Wyrm.
These mages downplay the power of Pentex, diverting the Technocracy's
wrath. The Technocracy's first priority has always been other mages, and
as a result they have ignored other supernatural threats that may in the
end be more important.
: I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
: campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
: instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
: these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
: in their way.
Well, Garou are low priority for the Technocracy. The Technomancer's
attitude is "So long as the werewolves hole up in the wilderness and
dwindle away like good little primitives, we'll leave them be. After
all, we have more immediate threats to deal with."
On the other hand, when werewolves come into a city and raise a ruckus, or
summon a lot of spirits, or monkeywrench important corporations, the
Technocracy will take an interest. In fact, one of the minor enemies of
the Garou, the DNA corporation, is merely a front for the Progenitors.
The Progenitors are interested in studying the remarkable biological
properties of the Garou (such as their rapid regeneration), and would make
good opponents for a pack of werewolves.
--
Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll.
pfst...@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Web Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html
Patrick O'Duffy
Euan Kilgour wrote:
>
> I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
> it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
> totally separate entity.
>
> campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
> instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
> these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
> in their way.
Hmm.. off hand, the T-Cracy would have _nothing_ to do with Pentex. A
corporation made up of 'reality deviants' who have traffic with 'other-
dimensional entities' - no chance.
Unofficially, of course, is another matter. The Syndicate would
probably be willing to extend Pentex some slack, since Pentex has
money. Furthermore, there's enough closet Nephandi in T-Cracy ranks for
there to be lots of under-the-table dealings.
If Pentex knew of Garou involvement in an area they felt ould be
'uneconomical' for them to interfere in, they might pass the buck onto
sympathetic T-Cracy ears. Similarly, Garou sniffing around for Pentex
involvement may stumble across T-Cracy assets.
I doubt Garou would cope too well with the subtler T-Cracy
manipulations, which is what the Syndicate often deal in. However, a
few MiBs, Hit Marks or high-tech hitmen could be a lot of fun to throw
at them.
Oh, and don't forget that the T-Cracy could be considered agents of
the Weaver - so maybe some of the Weaver-heavy Realms have Void Engineer
agents & Space Marines hanging around...
--
Patrick O'Duffy
The perfect kiss is dry as sand
And doesn't take your breath
The perfect kiss is with the boy
That you've just stabbed to death
THE BEAUTIFUL SOUTH "Something That You Said"
Overlord of Darkness
Euan Kilgour (eu...@waikato.ac.nz) wrote:
: I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
: campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
: instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
: these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
: in their way.
Actually, according to Project Twilight, the Syndicate provides a good
amount of funding for Pentex.
Rat Bastard
--
__/|_|\________Rat Bastard, Feline Overlord of Darkness at WFU________/|_|\__
\x x/ _____________________________________________ \x x/
/\Y/\ |"On the mezzanine I watch the old man scream,| /\Y/\
=^^===^^==== |Like cats ripping doves apart wing by wing." | ======^^===^^=
|__| -Thought Industry|__|
FloralMotif
On 15 Nov 1996, Paul F. Strack wrote:
> I think that it is very unlikely that the Technocracy and Pentex are
> actually allies. Superficially, they have the same goals (take over the
> world). In practice they are diametrically opposed. One of the
> Technocracy's major goals is to eject malevolent entities (such as the
> Wyrm) from reality. In fact, if the two organizations knew about each
> other, they would likely fight tooth and nail.
Hmmm.....I was under the impression that the Technocracy's goal
was to create a static paradigm that protected humanity by enforcing
science over magic, therefore rasing everyone through to Ascention
through the collective conciousness. (Sort of an _Outer Limits_ kind of thing,
"There is no need to adjust your set, We control the horizontal.....etc.....
etc....."). Which is not the same as trying to control the world.
Likewise, wasn't Pentax the front organization for an extremely
cosmic entity that doesn't want to control the world so much as destroy it?
Then re-make it in it's own image?
While I agree that they probably aren't best friends, I would
imagine that they probably could work together given that their short
term goals are in rooted in mutual profitability.
Just something to think about,
Best,
Glenn Thain - 628 Smithridge - Reno, NV. - 89502 - (702/827/8601)
(Please no e-mail, I'm only a guest on this account.)
Robert Gene Mayberry
In article <euan-15119...@130.217.143.165>,
Euan Kilgour <eu...@waikato.ac.nz> wrote:
>I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
>campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
>instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
>these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
>in their way.
I think that it depends largely on the type of chronicle you play. One
good place to start is a good round of Quarantine the Enemy. That is,
don't let Pentex and the Technocracy be aware of each other. There are
lots of reasons for them to have the same enemies and even more reasons to
hate each other. Best to play this, leaking information or assistance, as
the characters need it, but the rest of the time let them remain apart.
A good idea would be if the characters are monkeywrenching what they think
is a Pentex Subsidiary, but is really a Syndicate pawn. The characters
strike first, hitting the base and damaging it, only to be hunted by a
retribution force. The technocrats may even recruit the characters if
they figure out what happened (after many violent encounters, of course).
If this is a hypertechnological bloodfest campaign, then it should be
Iteration x and the Void Engineers. In my experience, Garou trash HIT
Marks pretty easily, but they will come as quite a suprise, especially
with Enlightened assistance. The real fun comes when the Progenitor
beasties or their tranq guns come out. When the totem avatar arrives to
save the day, or when the characters escape to their Caern, they think
they are safe in the umbra, when the sky darkens, blotted out by the Quin
Lae Machinae. The game turns into a superhighpower helicopter hunt.
If this is a paranoid, X-Files type of hunt, the Progenitors and New World
Order are perfect. The characters are even better equipped to sniff out
clones and chemical attacks (and better able to resist them), but are very
hard pressed to know where to return the attack. Simultaneously,
government agents arrest the Caern leader, the Warder is indicted on drug
trafficking, and two Kinfolk are swapped. The trick is to not go
overboard, and to always make it impossible to find out who is behind the
maneuvers. This game requires subtlty.
For a horror-type game, try making the Syndicate and Progenitors the head
bad guys. Kidnapping kinfolk and cubs, only to be discovered later as
either spirit-less zombies or terribly mutated; loosing a pack member,
only to have him show up partially dissected, floating in some grey-green
goo; or slowly going mad from chemicals poisoning the water system, all
are great ways to inspire horror and fear. Progenitor constructs are
filled with fomori-ish things, and their biochemical weapons will closely
resemble wyrm toxins.
Political games are also possible, but I think that you get the point.
THe trick with a crossover is to never let either side (this means your
NPCs also, who will make bad guesses and stupid mistakes) know too much.
Revealing too much is always a problem, because the characters will jump
to conclusions faster than you can hide them.
ROb
--
Robert Mayberry
Student of Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu "Never underestimate the power of
tanz...@r39h29.res.gatech.edu human stupidity" R.A. Heinlein
Ron Sharp
Overlord of Darkness <evan...@wfu.edu> wrote in article
<56h4l1$p...@f1n1.spenet.wfu.edu>...
> Euan Kilgour (eu...@waikato.ac.nz) wrote:
>
> : I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
> : campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play
Werewolf
> : instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest
in
> : these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly
get
> : in their way.
>
> amount of funding for Pentex.
It makes me wonder about how much intersection they have with the Ventrue &
Giovanni bankers. Are they all just fumbling around with their pawns, or do
they have an .. understanding.
In most other areas, there won't be much crossover interest, but a buck's a
buck!
Ron Sharp.
Paul F. Strack
FloralMotif (coun...@spot.intercomm.com) wrote:
: On 15 Nov 1996, Paul F. Strack wrote:
: > I think that it is very unlikely that the Technocracy and Pentex are
: > actually allies. Superficially, they have the same goals (take over the
: > world). In practice they are diametrically opposed. One of the
: > Technocracy's major goals is to eject malevolent entities (such as the
: > Wyrm) from reality. In fact, if the two organizations knew about each
: > other, they would likely fight tooth and nail.
: Hmmm.....I was under the impression that the Technocracy's goal
: was to create a static paradigm that protected humanity by enforcing
: science over magic, therefore rasing everyone through to Ascention
: through the collective conciousness. (Sort of an _Outer Limits_ kind of thing,
: "There is no need to adjust your set, We control the horizontal.....etc.....
: etc....."). Which is not the same as trying to control the world.
I don't know, sounds a lot like controlling the world to me :)
All for the common good, of course.
: Likewise, wasn't Pentax the front organization for an extremely
: cosmic entity that doesn't want to control the world so much as destroy it?
: Then re-make it in it's own image?
The goal of *Pentex* is to control the world. The Wyrm may have other
ideas. Pentex believes that it is using the forces of the Wyrm, while
the Wyrm believes that it is using Pentex. Most people figure the Wyrm
will win that battle, but Pentex may have a few tricks left up its
sleeve.
: While I agree that they probably aren't best friends, I would
: imagine that they probably could work together given that their short
: term goals are in rooted in mutual profitability.
Seems unlikely to me. Not *impossible*, but rather unlikely. Both
groups would have to have some serious blinders on before they would
cooperate. Still, both groups keep their activities secret, and meddle
in many of the same area. It is quite possible that Pentex and the
Technocracy have been unwitting allies in the past.
Z
eu...@waikato.ac.nz (Euan Kilgour) wrote:
>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>totally separate entity.
I think they are totally seperate entities. Pentex and the
Technocracy have totaly different goals. The Technocracy truly
believes it is helping all of humanity (wether they are right or wrong
in their approach is another debate) They may unwittingly
intermingle, but the Technocracy is something Pentex wouldn't really
understand, and Pentex is something the Technocracy wouldn't want in
existence.
>I'm going to tie in a Werewolf campaign I'm currently running to a Mage
>campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
>instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
>these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
>in their way.
Their are many ways the Technocracy could get . . . um . . .
"interested" in the Werewolves. The Techno's don't know very much
about them, and many disbelieve their existence entirely. The Garou
could stumble across a Technocratic operation and mistake them for
Wyrm agents (or simply see them as Weaver agents, since they really
are in Garou's eyes), and if they disrupt their plans, then the
Technocracy would take an extreme interest in "erasing" these
"Renegades from a Mythic Age" Another way, possibly combined with the
previous one, is the Technocracy become aware of the nature of the
Garou and want to study/eraticate/or experiment with them.
And the Technocracy can do ALOT more then just send HIT marks after
them, especially if the characters mantain human lives that the
Technocracy finds out about.
Happy Hunting ;)
------------------------------------------------------------
Can Half-a-Bee, be said to be, or not to be, an entire bee,
when half the bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury?
-John Cleese, Monty Python
----------------------------------------------------------
Roland X
In article <56is0n$1...@newz.oit.unc.edu>, pfst...@math.unc.edu (Paul F.
Strack) wrote:
> FloralMotif (coun...@spot.intercomm.com) wrote:
> : On 15 Nov 1996, Paul F. Strack wrote:
>
> : > I think that it is very unlikely that the Technocracy and Pentex are
> : > actually allies. Superficially, they have the same goals (take over the
> : > world). In practice they are diametrically opposed. One of the
> : > Technocracy's major goals is to eject malevolent entities (such as the
> : > Wyrm) from reality. In fact, if the two organizations knew about each
> : > other, they would likely fight tooth and nail.
>
> : Hmmm.....I was under the impression that the Technocracy's goal
> : was to create a static paradigm that protected humanity by enforcing
> : science over magic, therefore rasing everyone through to Ascention
> : through the collective conciousness. (Sort of an _Outer Limits_ kind
of thing,
> : "There is no need to adjust your set, We control the horizontal.....etc.....
> : etc....."). Which is not the same as trying to control the world.
>
> I don't know, sounds a lot like controlling the world to me :)
>
> All for the common good, of course.
<snip>
> : While I agree that they probably aren't best friends, I would
> : imagine that they probably could work together given that their short
> : term goals are in rooted in mutual profitability.
>
> Seems unlikely to me. Not *impossible*, but rather unlikely. Both
> groups would have to have some serious blinders on before they would
> cooperate. Still, both groups keep their activities secret, and meddle
> in many of the same area. It is quite possible that Pentex and the
> Technocracy have been unwitting allies in the past.
>
Herein lies the problem, and, IMHO, the reason the $yndicate book
is taking so sprocking long.
Pentex is supposedly the largest corporation in the world. The
$yndicate supposedly controls just about all the world's money.
Does anyone else see a problem here?
For both to be true the $yndicate would have to be in bed with
Pentex (metaphorically speaking) up to their little green paradigm.
Me, I don't have a problem with this. I've always felt that the
$yndicate (specializing in the _Spirit_ sphere with the VEs around?!)
must be corrupt-barabbi corrupt-from top to bottom. _They_ are
the ones hiding the truth about Pentex from the rest of the Tech-
nocracy. They see no problem wheeling and dealing with the Wyrm.
The non-barabbi probably think they can out-deal the Wyrm in the
end; the Fallen know better.
The problem is that I think WW is _very_ reluctant to make a cross-
over that tangled part of canon. I can hardly blame them; doing this
makes almost _any_ $yndicate or Pentex operation a Werewolf/Mage
crossover. Given Pentex's importance in Werewolf (and that, IMHO,
Werewolf and Mage are the two most different games in WW) they
are desperately trying to come up with another explanation.
"We want it all. We want it right now. And we want it in cash."
-Motto, $yndicate barabbi
--
=== / "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy."
O (/) -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-vell) \ Roland X:
=== / Support the Green Lantern Net Corps \ Freelance
Jinx by Design: http://home.earthlink.net/~jinxmccoy\ Immortal
Leif Roar Moldskred
Roland X (rol...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> Herein lies the problem, and, IMHO, the reason the $yndicate book
> is taking so sprocking long.
> Pentex is supposedly the largest corporation in the world. The
> $yndicate supposedly controls just about all the world's money.
> Does anyone else see a problem here?
Well, the way I figure it, the syndicate's main concern isn't controlling
the actuall _money_ as much as it is controlling the economic rules
that money is made by. I.e. the Syndicate developes economical theories,
and then makes sure that the reality fits the description.
Now, to enforce their paradigm, they need a wide web of agents around
the world, ready to give managers and vice directores a good idea now
and then, throw a wrench into the workings of businesses that shows
an earning despite being "economically unviable" - that sort of thing.
It is not unreasonable to suppose that the best way to conduct this
kind of activites is from the bottom up.
So the inner workings of Pentex might be relatively safe from syndicate
interference, as the syndicate prefers to influence Pentex through
the many smaller companies that Pentex ownes, trusting that a "good
idea" and "new, more efficent managing procedures" will rise to the
top like a bubble.
Leif Roar Moldskred
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au
> Herein lies the problem, and, IMHO, the reason the $yndicate book
>is taking so sprocking long.
> Pentex is supposedly the largest corporation in the world. The
Where does it say this ? It's been a while since I read BotW, but my
impression was that Pentex (while significant) did _not_ dominate the
corporate world. Take a look at the stuff they do... if they really
owned more than a small but significant cross-section of the world's
business, every child in the world would be a fomor.
Geoffrey Brent
--
gbr...@rscsun.anu.edu.au
soccer gimp
I doubt Garou would cope too well with the subtler T-Cracy
> manipulations, which is what the Syndicate often deal in. However, a
> few MiBs, Hit Marks or high-tech hitmen could be a lot of fun to throw
> at them.
I don;t knwo why, but everytime we encounter one, the Lupines hardly do
anything to it (maybe it's those 9 soak dice - I dunno).
Of course, that's why my Mage was around >:>
Nate
Justin Grace
>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>totally separate entity.
>
>campaign I was going to do but they (the players) decided to play Werewolf
>instead. I'm looking at ways for the Technocracy to take an interest in
>these (sucke... ahhh.... errr....) werewolves who may just unwittingly get
>in their way.
>
Pentex is controlled by the Giovanni. The Technocracy do not really
enter into it, because they are an embodiment of the Weaver, whereas all
vampires are (by definition) serving the Wyrm.
In my opinion, Werewolves tend to get this a little messed up, as they
tend to cater too easily to stereotypes (but then, so do vampires -
check out the chapters about other WoD denizens in any of the games'
main books, and you'll see) - there are vampire clans who serve
womething more akin to the Wyld (Gangrel) and there are Werewolf tribes
who serve the Wrym (Black Spirals).
Overall, it works well in my campaign that Pentex is controlled by the
Giovanni, since they are effectively the Wyrm, and as far as the
Technocracy goes - they serve the Weaver and so are a different faction
anyway, with different goals and aims.
Oh well, just my own interpretation, as useful as it may (or may not)
be.
--
Justin Grace
Loki a.k.a. Brynjolfr
In article <euan-15119...@130.217.143.165> eu...@waikato.ac.nz (Euan
>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>totally separate entity.
Well, my take on Pentex in a Mage Chronicle I ran a few years ago was that
Pentex was closely linked to barabbi within the Technocracy. That is, a group
of mainly Progenitor and Syndicate barabbi were active inside Pentex, and were
responsible for a lot of its activities.
I ran this game before Book of Madness came out, but the barabbi I had inside
Pentex showed notable similarities to Malfean Nephandi when I read it... I
figure they're probably the easiest way to link Pentex to Mage. It's a lot
harder to integrate Void Engineers, New World Order and Iteration X into
Pentex's corporate structure.
Loki | once sysop of TWWOL | f3...@unb.ca (preferred)
Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson | now law student | d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
~!
http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~d_flemmi/
Croatan
Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!! In fact the only Vampire
on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
the Wyrm). Just my opinion
P.S. Keep in mind all I play is W:tA not M:tA,V:tM,C:tD or W:tO.
Daniel J Keller
Croatan (cro...@home.stlnet.com) wrote:
: Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
: But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
: indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!! In fact the only Vampire
: on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
Giovanni) control of Pentex.
: I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
: over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
: the Wyrm). Just my opinion
: P.S. Keep in mind all I play is W:tA not M:tA,V:tM,C:tD or W:tO.
Dan Keller
--
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought,
wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that
happen to us come because we actually deserve them. So now, I take great comfort
in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."-Marcus Cole,Babylon 5
Eborium
> Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
> But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
> indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!!
Indirectly and directly? Surely its got to be one or the other?
> In fact the only Vampire
> on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
Enzo giovanni?
> I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
> over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
> the Wyrm). Just my opinion
Enzo Giovanni (again)?
Eborium
verkuilen john v
djk_...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Daniel J Keller) writes:
>Croatan (cro...@home.stlnet.com) wrote:
>: Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
>: But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
>: indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!!
Except that the Wyrm is hardly "one entity" and it's pretty clear that
Wyrm entities fight amongst themselves quite a bit as well as fighting
everyone else. Black Spirals are not entirely hinged together right
and frequently kill each other as it stands. Various nephandi factions
kill each other too. It's all just chaos to the Wyrm anyway, so what does
it care? Besides, is it even reasonable to talk of the Wyrm _caring_ in
any sense that matches human concepts of the term?
In fact the only Vampire
>: on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
>Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
>the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
>because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
>Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
>Giovanni) control of Pentex.
>: I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
>: over it's grip over humankind
Hard to say here, but I suspect that they really wouldn't care much. Also
I thought the Giovanni (the Johns :) weren't Camarilla either.
(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
>: the Wyrm). Just my opinion
>: P.S. Keep in mind all I play is W:tA not M:tA,V:tM,C:tD or W:tO.
Well, most vampires might be thought of as serving the Wyrm, at least
unknowingly. The Beast is, well, cowardly, viscious, greedy, etc.
Since Sense Wyrm works on vampires (provided their humanity isn't too
high) one would think that it is indicative of Wyrm influence in vampires,
even if it isn't direct.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
The Baron
On 21 Nov 1996 14:10:55 GMT, The Dark and Evil
djk_...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Daniel J Keller) wrote:
>Croatan (cro...@home.stlnet.com) wrote:
>: Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
>: But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
>: indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!! In fact the only Vampire
>: on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
>
>Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
>the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
>because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
>Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
>Giovanni) control of Pentex.
>
>: I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
>: over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
>: the Wyrm). Just my opinion
>
>: P.S. Keep in mind all I play is W:tA not M:tA,V:tM,C:tD or W:tO.
Well, given the desc. of Enzo Giovanni, I think Pentex is controlling
him.
mir...@lascruces.com
Daniel J Keller wrote:
>
> Croatan (cro...@home.stlnet.com) wrote:
> : Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
> : But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
> : indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!! In fact the only Vampire
> : on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
>
> Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
> the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
> because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
> Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
> Giovanni) control of Pentex.
>
There is also Zettler, a Malkavian antitribu. But since Enzo is being
corrupted by one of the Urge Wyrms and has severed most of his ties to
his old clan, I don't think he will be much of an option.
> : I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
> : over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
> : the Wyrm). Just my opinion
>
> : P.S. Keep in mind all I play is W:tA not M:tA,V:tM,C:tD or W:tO.
>
Jeffryes Joshua M
The Baron (bar...@infoave.net) wrote:
:|>Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
:|>the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
:|>because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
:|>Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
:|>Giovanni) control of Pentex.
I own the card in question (but haven't read Monkeywrench), but the Book
of the Wyrm has Harold Zettler, a Malkavian Antitribu, on the Board of
Directors, not a Giovanni. The description depicts Zettler as a loyal
servant of the Wyrm for several hundred years, and I don't see him being
replaced by a Giovanni (or letting another Vampire on the Board) anytime
soon.
The question then becomes, which book to trust?
J. Spectre - there goes that "internal consistency" stuff again.
|"Those who trust do not question. |"A man who has not passed through |
| Those who fear dare not question." | the inferno of his passions has |
| -NWO slogan | never overcome them." -CG Jung |
+ -------------PENTEX: God made man. We made him better. ---------------+
Eborium
> :|>Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
> :|>the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
> :|>because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
> :|>Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
> :|>Giovanni) control of Pentex.
>
> I own the card in question (but haven't read Monkeywrench), but the Book
> of the Wyrm has Harold Zettler, a Malkavian Antitribu, on the Board of
> Directors, not a Giovanni. The description depicts Zettler as a loyal
> servant of the Wyrm for several hundred years, and I don't see him being
> replaced by a Giovanni (or letting another Vampire on the Board) anytime
> soon.
>
> The question then becomes, which book to trust?
Three of the Pentex directors got bumped off in Monkeywrench Pentex. Enzo
is the replacement for Elliot Meiche, if I remember rightly.
J
=
The Baron
>>
>> I own the card in question (but haven't read Monkeywrench), but the Book
>> of the Wyrm has Harold Zettler, a Malkavian Antitribu, on the Board of
>> Directors, not a Giovanni. The description depicts Zettler as a loyal
>> servant of the Wyrm for several hundred years, and I don't see him being
>> replaced by a Giovanni (or letting another Vampire on the Board) anytime
>> soon.
>>
>> The question then becomes, which book to trust?
>
>Three of the Pentex directors got bumped off in Monkeywrench Pentex. Enzo
>is the replacement for Elliot Meiche, if I remember rightly.
>
>J
you do.
Jeffryes Joshua M
Eborium (jm...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
:|> In fact the only Vampire
:|> on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
:|Enzo giovanni?
Croatan is correct in pointing out that according to the Book of the
Wyrm, it is Zettler, *not* Giovanni on the Pentex Board of Directors. And
there is no possibility that one would allow the other to have a Board
seat. The question now becomes: which one actually *is* on the Board?
J. Spectre - my money's on Zettler, but just because I *like* the idea of
a 5th gen Malkavian Antitribu mucking around with Pentex.
MIchael Wade
Jeffryes Joshua M <jmj...@nic.smsu.edu> wrote in article
<577t9h$o...@ursa.smsu.edu>...
> Eborium (jm...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> :|> In fact the only Vampire
> :|> on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian
Antitribu)
>
> :|Enzo giovanni?
>
> Croatan is correct in pointing out that according to the Book of the
> Wyrm, it is Zettler, *not* Giovanni on the Pentex Board of Directors. And
> there is no possibility that one would allow the other to have a Board
> seat. The question now becomes: which one actually *is* on the Board?
>
>
>
> J. Spectre - my money's on Zettler, but just because I *like* the idea of
> a 5th gen Malkavian Antitribu mucking around with Pentex.
>
> Sorry guys, but both gents occupy th board. According to Pentex:
Monkeywrench, three board members were slain in August of 1993, in
Milwaukee, Winsconson. A Werewolf named "Shadow Walker" wounded Howard
Zettler and killed Elliot Meiche, Robert Allred and Fredrick Kromrich. (Can
you say big time renown?) The replacements were Francesco, a Black Spiral
Dancer, ironicly a Lupis, Enzo Giovanni, and Kathryn Mollett a mortal.
But on the earlier topic of weather the Giovanni were controling the
board, well lets say that is far from the truth. Enzo ran a very political
(mudslinging) campain with the share holders and bearly got in.
Unfortuanatly for him he is now the pawn of the Mahsstrac, Urge Wyrm of
Power. The more he gave into the Wyrm, the more power he got, and now all
of his personal holdings are Pentex's. And it would appear that the ties
that bind him to the Clan are considerably reduced. In truth, he may now be
a Giovanni in name only now.
Alik S. Widge
In article <5720ft$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
> Except that the Wyrm is hardly "one entity" and it's pretty clear that
> Wyrm entities fight amongst themselves quite a bit as well as fighting
> everyone else.
Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
improve eternal efficiency. Each department has its own subdepartment
heads, who report back to their aspect. That's the Maeljin Incarna.
However, since each department has the same four subdepartments, there
is some cross-communication, by the four essences, Toxin, Balefire,
Smog, and Sludge. Each department then has its BSDs, fomori, demonic
thingies, Banes, etc. But somewhere at the top there is the Wyrm
itself, the ultimate source of it all.
Alik
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
>Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
>is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
>subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
>improve eternal efficiency.
Hence, the backstabbing between the heads that was suggested in the
Book of the Wyrm.
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
verkuilen john v
Also, if I'm not mistaken, BotW tries hard to downplay the inevitable
anthropomorphization of the Wyrm. The Wyrm is more or less a concept or
a force, not an entity. It has many different facets which are sometimes
in conflict with each other.
John H
ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) wrote:
>r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>>Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
>>>Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
>>>is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
>>>subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
>>>improve eternal efficiency.
>>Hence, the backstabbing between the heads that was suggested in the
>>Book of the Wyrm.
>Also, if I'm not mistaken, BotW tries hard to downplay the inevitable
>anthropomorphization of the Wyrm. The Wyrm is more or less a concept or
>a force, not an entity. It has many different facets which are sometimes
>in conflict with each other.
In my game world, (i.e. when I'm ST) The Wyrm is only a facet of a
much greater evil. It is also the generic name that the Garou have
put on something. (I don't want to say to much if any of my players
are reading)
Josh Teitelbaum
On 24 Nov 1996, Alik S. Widge wrote:
> In article <5720ft$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
> ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
>
> > Except that the Wyrm is hardly "one entity" and it's pretty clear that
> > Wyrm entities fight amongst themselves quite a bit as well as fighting
> > everyone else.
>
> Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
> is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
> subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
> improve eternal efficiency. Each department has its own subdepartment
> heads, who report back to their aspect. That's the Maeljin Incarna.
> However, since each department has the same four subdepartments, there
> is some cross-communication, by the four essences, Toxin, Balefire,
> Smog, and Sludge. Each department then has its BSDs, fomori, demonic
> thingies, Banes, etc. But somewhere at the top there is the Wyrm
> itself, the ultimate source of it all.
>
> Alik
>
>
Umm... Unless I've been reading EVERY supplement for WW:tA
COMPLETELY wrong, the Wyrm went insane when the Wever trapped it in the
Pattern Web. Its psyche, and powers fragmented, forming into grotesque
parodies of the three poriginal Triat. The Wyld was warped into Beast of
War, the Weaver was warped into the Eater of Souls, and what was left of
the balance Wyrm turned into itself and became the Defiler Wyrm. Now, the
rest of what I'm going to say is based off of one supplement (gasp), the
Chronicle of the Black Labrynth. Supposedly two strands of the Pattern Web
fell across the Wyrm as it struggled to release itself, deviding it into
the four corrupted elements. T
But, regardless of exactly how it was devided, devided it is.
That's the only reason the Garou (And Gaia, for that matter) have survived
so long. The Wyrm fights itself as well as the forces of Gaia. Many times,
crafty Garou have set up two Wyrm factions to destroy eachother. Of
course, the Wyrm does the same thing to the Garou...
Alik S. Widge
In article <57cnp5$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
> Also, if I'm not mistaken, BotW tries hard to downplay the inevitable
> anthropomorphization of the Wyrm. The Wyrm is more or less a concept or
> a force, not an entity. It has many different facets which are sometimes
> in conflict with each other.
Hang on. That very much describes an insane entity. The Wyrm is
described as having "gone mad" from being trapped in the Weaver's webs.
In fact, as I recall, the legend in questions assigns the Weaver some
kind of sentience/motivation, a desire to spin everything. How can a
force go mad?
The Wyrm has a case of MPD, or something similar. Each head is a
different personality. But even though the heads may work at cross
purposes, their net effect is to increase chaos and corruption.
We've seen that almost everything has a spirit associated with it, a
sentient being related to the essence of that concept. Why, then,
doesn't it make sense that this should carry all the way up the scale?
The Wyrm is just a really really big spirit. If you could find where
they're keeping it, maybe you could give it some psychotherapy...
"Zo, your deZire to corrupt and control ze entire world, tell me more
about zis."
"I zee. And do you zhink zhat perhaps zese problems ztem from ze way
you were treated as a child?"
Alik
Loki
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95L.96112...@tower.york.ac.uk> Eborium <jm...@york.ac.uk> writes:
>From: Eborium <jm...@york.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: [Q]: Pentex ties to the Technocracy?
>Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:54:07 +0000
>> Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
>> But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
>> indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!!
>Indirectly and directly? Surely its got to be one or the other?
No, it's not. The Wyrm's crazy, remember? :)
>> In fact the only Vampire
>> on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
>Enzo giovanni?
>> I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
>> over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
>> the Wyrm). Just my opinion
>Enzo Giovanni (again)?
Of course, the way Enzo is portrayed in Monkeywrench, he's lost touch with his
Giovanni roots and is heading to just sitting in Pentex, writing home to his
elders every so often. :)
Bah. I hated Monkeywrench. It was so goofy. And besides, I'd already figured
out about twelve different things that Pentex was up to, and it didn't fit any
of them. :)
Loki | once sysop of TWWOL | f3...@unb.ca (preferred)
Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson | now law student | d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~d_flemmi/
Loki
In article <5736u1$i...@ursa.smsu.edu> jmj...@nic.smsu.edu (Jeffryes Joshua M)
writes:
>The Baron (bar...@infoave.net) wrote:
>:|>Nope! Check out Monkeywrenchers:Pentex, I believe. There is a Giovanni on
>:|>the board of directors. Enzo is his name, I think. I remember him
>:|>because there was a card for him in the Vampire card game (from Dark
>:|>Sovreigns) So there is certainly some basis for vampire (especially
>:|>Giovanni) control of Pentex.
>I own the card in question (but haven't read Monkeywrench), but the Book
>of the Wyrm has Harold Zettler, a Malkavian Antitribu, on the Board of
>Directors, not a Giovanni. The description depicts Zettler as a loyal
>servant of the Wyrm for several hundred years, and I don't see him being
>replaced by a Giovanni (or letting another Vampire on the Board) anytime
>soon.
>The question then becomes, which book to trust?
Monkeywrench's an update. It's later in time than the Pentex in BotW. Some
stuff happens in between... (a few Pentex BoD members get offed and so on).
Now, this doesn't mean you should buy it. I think the Pentex in BotW is way
cooler than the new Pentex. (yuck)
mir...@lascruces.com
Loki wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SGI.3.95L.96112...@tower.york.ac.uk> Eborium <jm...@york.ac.uk> writes:
> >From: Eborium <jm...@york.ac.uk>
> >Subject: Re: [Q]: Pentex ties to the Technocracy?
> >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:54:07 +0000
>
> >> Not saying that individualism is wrong(i.e. your WoD campaign)
> >> But the Giovanni could NEVER control Pentex, Pentex is directly and
> >> indirectly controlled by one entity THA WYRM!!
> >Indirectly and directly? Surely its got to be one or the other?
>
> No, it's not. The Wyrm's crazy, remember? :)
>
> >> In fact the only Vampire
> >> on the Pentex Board of diectors is Harold Zettler(Malkavian Antitribu)
> >Enzo giovanni?
> >> I dont see the Wyrm openly letting the Giovanni(Camarilla Vampires) take
> >> over it's grip over humankind(Although Sabbat Vampires unknowingly serve
> >> the Wyrm). Just my opinion
> >Enzo Giovanni (again)?
>
> Of course, the way Enzo is portrayed in Monkeywrench, he's lost touch with his
> Giovanni roots and is heading to just sitting in Pentex, writing home to his
> elders every so often. :)
>
> Bah. I hated Monkeywrench. It was so goofy. And besides, I'd already figured
> out about twelve different things that Pentex was up to, and it didn't fit any
> of them. :)
But the comic was cool.
mir...@lascruces.com
Josh Teitelbaum wrote:
>
> On 24 Nov 1996, Alik S. Widge wrote:
>
> > In article <5720ft$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
> > > Wyrm entities fight amongst themselves quite a bit as well as fighting
> > > everyone else.
> >
> > Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
> > is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
> > subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
> > improve eternal efficiency. Each department has its own subdepartment
> > heads, who report back to their aspect. That's the Maeljin Incarna.
> > However, since each department has the same four subdepartments, there
> > is some cross-communication, by the four essences, Toxin, Balefire,
> > Smog, and Sludge. Each department then has its BSDs, fomori, demonic
> > thingies, Banes, etc. But somewhere at the top there is the Wyrm
> > itself, the ultimate source of it all.
> >
> > Alik
> >
> >
> Umm... Unless I've been reading EVERY supplement for WW:tA
> COMPLETELY wrong, the Wyrm went insane when the Wever trapped it in the
> Pattern Web. Its psyche, and powers fragmented, forming into grotesque
> parodies of the three poriginal Triat. The Wyld was warped into Beast of
> War, the Weaver was warped into the Eater of Souls, and what was left of
> the balance Wyrm turned into itself and became the Defiler Wyrm.
I kind of thought those where actually different ways the wyrm balanced
out the other aspects. The Beast of War is balance by destruction. The
Defiler is balance by change. The Eater of Souls, was, uhm, I had it a
minute ago, uh, balance by gourmet. Yeah. Ok, that last wasn't as good
as the others, but you get the idea.
Now, the
> rest of what I'm going to say is based off of one supplement (gasp), the
> Chronicle of the Black Labrynth.
It was a very interesting and informative supplement, at that.
> Supposedly two strands of the Pattern Web
> fell across the Wyrm as it struggled to release itself, deviding it into
> the four corrupted elements. T
>
> But, regardless of exactly how it was devided, devided it is.
> That's the only reason the Garou (And Gaia, for that matter) have survived
> so long. The Wyrm fights itself as well as the forces of Gaia. Many times,
> crafty Garou have set up two Wyrm factions to destroy eachother. Of
> course, the Wyrm does the same thing to the Garou...
And theres actually only two factions left, the Beast of War and the
Defiler, and the Defiler is becoming as powerful as a greater
Celestine.
Kyle Anderson Felker
et>
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Distribution:
:
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon reports:
: Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
:
: >Not entirely true. There is one entity which is The Wyrm, just as there
: >is one entity who is Gaia. However, the Wyrm is divided into the three
: >subcommittees of Defiler, Eater-Of-Souls, and Beast-Of-War, in order to
: >improve eternal efficiency.
: Hence, the backstabbing between the heads that was suggested in the
: Book of the Wyrm.
The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's servants
thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get different
heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even outright warring on
each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and makes them less
effective, not more.
:
:
: Kestrel
: The Fairly Decent Dragon
:
--
---------------------------------------
Kyle Felker (kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu)
"Boil, boil, toil and trouble
Fire burn and cauldron bubble!"
- Shakespeare, _Macbeth_
---------------------------------------
Andrew Lucas
Justin Grace (Jus...@bgrace.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Pentex is controlled by the Giovanni. The Technocracy do not really
: enter into it, because they are an embodiment of the Weaver, whereas all
: vampires are (by definition) serving the Wyrm.
Where is this stated? The Book of the Wyrm makes quite plain that the
company is directly controlled by the Wyrms. The only vampire on the
board is the semi-official Sabbat representative, who is nevertheless
under close observation from the others. The only reference to the
Giovanni in the book is in the section on the company's effects on other
WoD denizens, where it is claimed that Giovanni business interests have
suffered rather more than Ventrue ones from Pentex's corporate
depredations, and that their growth abroad has been greatly decelerated
as a result. Not even the Sabbat believe they control Pentex. Pentex,
however, think they control themselves, and have intentions and ideals, as a
company, which conflict with what their foul, pseudo-Cthulhoid masters
actually intend.
In addition, a quick look at this volume should clear up the
Pentex/Technocracy debate, as it makes clear the extent of the company's
contact with magi, and is also rather unequivocal about which conspiracy
is bigger.
A.
MIchael Wade
Andrew Lucas <kebl...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote in article
<57ue01$n...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
> While you are right about the the original Book of the Wyrm information.
You should read the Monkeywrenchers book for info on the newest board
members. One of them is a Giovanni. Though it would be foolish to say that
he controls the company. He is controled now however by the Urge of Power.
Andrew Lucas
MIchael Wade (her...@gte.net) wrote:
: >
: > Sorry guys, but both gents occupy th board. According to Pentex:
: Monkeywrench, three board members were slain in August of 1993, in
: Milwaukee, Winsconson. A Werewolf named "Shadow Walker" wounded Howard
: Zettler and killed Elliot Meiche, Robert Allred and Fredrick Kromrich. (Can
: you say big time renown?) The replacements were Francesco, a Black Spiral
: Dancer, ironicly a Lupis, Enzo Giovanni, and Kathryn Mollett a mortal.
Is it certain that the werewolf responsible wasn't a BSD sent by one of
the OTHER board members? :-)
: But on the earlier topic of weather the Giovanni were controling the
: board, well lets say that is far from the truth. Enzo ran a very political
: (mudslinging) campain with the share holders and bearly got in.
: Unfortuanatly for him he is now the pawn of the Mahsstrac, Urge Wyrm of
: Power. The more he gave into the Wyrm, the more power he got, and now all
: of his personal holdings are Pentex's. And it would appear that the ties
: that bind him to the Clan are considerably reduced. In truth, he may now be
: a Giovanni in name only now.
Well there we are. No-one can "control" Pentex without coming under the
domination of the Urge Wyrms. The whole board are their puppets. Whatever
their personal intentions, they all get enslaved by their base desires,
and thus by the Wyrms that embody them.
We must assume that the Giovanni are as hopelessly enthralled by the Wyrm
as the Sabbat.
And the Setites as well, come to that..
Mwa ha ha!
A.
[IC: Del Rey, Pentex Exec.]
Alik S. Widge
In article <57su6o$a2g$3...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>
kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu (Kyle Anderson Felker) writes:
> The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's servants
> thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get different
> heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even outright warring on
> each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and makes them less
> effective, not more.
I dunno. For something that's being ineffective and warring with
itself, the big W seems to be doing quite well. I think that the three
heads do recognize that none of them is actually the true Wyrm. On the
other hand, they still argue about who should be in charge of things.
Remember, three heads, but only one body.
Alik
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
>> The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's servants
>> thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get different
>> heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even outright warring on
>> each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and makes them less
>> effective, not more.
>I dunno. For something that's being ineffective and warring with
>itself, the big W seems to be doing quite well.
That's because the Wyrm's forces are larger, and they don't squabble
as much as Gaia's forces do.
>I think that the three heads do recognize that none of them is actually the true Wyrm. On the
>other hand, they still argue about who should be in charge of things.
>Remember, three heads, but only one body.
That's not what the Book of the Wyrm puts forth. If that were the
case, Pentex would be running a lot smoother...
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
> The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's
> servants thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get
> different heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even
> outright warring on each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and
> makes them less effective, not more.
> I think that the three heads do recognize that none of them is
> actually the true Wyrm. On the other hand, they still argue about who
> should be in charge of things.
> Remember, three heads, but only one body.
Three?
Now, I realize you're probably talking about Eater-of-Souls, Defiler,
and Beast-of-War... but I can count eight or nine, perhaps even more,
in my copy of _Book of the Wyrm_. Urge-Wyrms, that is. (Foebok,
Urge-Wyrm of Fear, comes to mind as one that doesn't quite fit any
of the aspects of the three above. To list more, I'd have to keep my
book handy.)
Perhaps the three commonly acknowledged manifestations (Eater-of-Souls,
Defiler, Beast-of-War) are the primary contenders in the Urge-Wyrm
battle for dominance?
-- Sven Skoog
Richard J Badger
In article <32A583...@ll.mit.edu>, sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
>Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
>
>> Remember, three heads, but only one body.
>
>Three?
>
>Now, I realize you're probably talking about Eater-of-Souls, Defiler,
>and Beast-of-War... but I can count eight or nine, perhaps even more,
>in my copy of _Book of the Wyrm_. Urge-Wyrms, that is.
I think the way it goes is that the Wyrm Triat (Eater, Defiler, and
Beast)are the three heads of the Wyrm, and Celestines in level of power,
possibly higher. The Urge-Wyrms, AKA Maejlin, are Wyrm spirits/totems
generally of the level of power of Incarna.
--
- Richard Badger
The greatest high is achieved by looking into the eyes of death
...and throwing her a suggestive wink.
Robert Gene Mayberry
>Three?
>Now, I realize you're probably talking about Eater-of-Souls, Defiler,
>and Beast-of-War... but I can count eight or nine, perhaps even more,
>in my copy of _Book of the Wyrm_. Urge-Wyrms, that is. (Foebok,
>Urge-Wyrm of Fear, comes to mind as one that doesn't quite fit any
>of the aspects of the three above. To list more, I'd have to keep my
>book handy.)
>Perhaps the three commonly acknowledged manifestations (Eater-of-Souls,
>Defiler, Beast-of-War) are the primary contenders in the Urge-Wyrm
>battle for dominance?
This is pretty close to what I have determined. Here is my analysis, and
I know I'll regret the analogy, but compare the Triat to the US
government. I am NOT trying to inject current events or partisanship into
the debate, merely making a structural analogy.
The Wyld can be compared to Congress, which endlessly creates bills and
laws and committees and government branches. Like the wyld, it is without
a clear ruler (at any given time, the leaders of congress must constantly
court individual votes, leaving the structure in flux), it takes many
forms depending on current conditions, and is the ONLY branch that can
create anything of lasting value (executive and judicial orders are much
more fleeting, and must still be funded with money from congress).
The Weaver is much like the executive branch, which enforces the current
laws and administers current organizations. It gives structure and a
logical heirarchy of command to the bureaucracies, and produces
regulations which implement the law.
The Wyrm of Balance is the Supreme Court. Court orders notwithstanding,
the only power of the Supreme Court is the ability to strike down laws
which contradict higher laws. The our judicial system works through
review, only reacting to what has already transpired.
However, you can see that it is impossible for these branches to exist on
their own. The Supreme court can't act without legislation to interpret
_and_ an executive branch to bring cases before it. The Executive branch
requires laws to enforce and a court to bring cases to. And congress
requires someone to enforce the laws they pass and to judge both the laws
and those who would break them. However, each has some of the powers of
the other (the ability to try impeachments, the ability to make
regulations and executive orders, and the power of the court order).
The Wyrm works the same way. Sundered from cooperation with the Wyld and
the Weaver, it is forced to try to simulate their powers for its own use.
In the end, it can't; it has a powerful Vortex (and probably some captured
area of the Pattern Web) trapped in Malfeas to create and pattern
destruction incarnate. Hence, the Beast of War, which is a kind of Wyld
for the Wyrm. It uses war and destructive change to break gaia. Defiler
is the Wyrm's answer to the Weaver. It locks things into a pattern of
decay and stasis, using people's current weaknesses and ties against them.
Eater of Souls is the only truly destructive Wyrm left. Thanks to the
Croatan, it is gone from the earth. For now.
The three vie for power, and the distinction isn't quite as great as it
might appear. Each has elements of Weaver and Wyld buried in it, but each
is ultimately allied to the Wyrm. Other Wyrms, such as the Urges and
others, are tied in the same way that lobbyists and NGOs are tied to the
government; they can pass internal regulations, but require the Three to
take action on their side before they can effect true changes in policy.
In other words, they are the patterns of the wyrm who are not easily
assigned to the Triatic Wyrm.
So both Kestrel and Sven are right in their analyses.
Rob
ps Here is a puzzle: How many Urge Wyrms are there? There is the Wyrm,
then the Three triatic wyrms. So are there thirteen Urge Wyrms? The
numbers always matter.
Rob
--
Robert Mayberry
Student of Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu "Never underestimate the power of
tanz...@r39h29.res.gatech.edu human stupidity" R.A. Heinlein
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Robert Gene Mayberry wrote:
[snip]
Great stuff, Rob. This is the sort of thing we need more of online.
Cheers --
Sven
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
>> The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's
>> servants thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get
>> different heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even
>> outright warring on each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and
>> makes them less effective, not more.
>> I think that the three heads do recognize that none of them is
>> actually the true Wyrm. On the other hand, they still argue about who
>> should be in charge of things.
>> Remember, three heads, but only one body.
>Three?
>Now, I realize you're probably talking about Eater-of-Souls, Defiler,
>and Beast-of-War... but I can count eight or nine, perhaps even more,
>in my copy of _Book of the Wyrm_. Urge-Wyrms, that is. (Foebok,
>Urge-Wyrm of Fear, comes to mind as one that doesn't quite fit any
>of the aspects of the three above. To list more, I'd have to keep my
>book handy.)
Foebock is, if memory serves, subordinate to Eater-of-Souls. Check the
Chronicle for sure. You are right, however, in saying that some Urges
aren't easily pigeonholed under one of the main heads; the Green
Dragon could conceivably go anywhere.
>Perhaps the three commonly acknowledged manifestations (Eater-of-Souls,
>Defiler, Beast-of-War) are the primary contenders in the Urge-Wyrm
>battle for dominance?
Don't forget Antonine's dreams about a fourth head...
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Robert Gene Mayberry) wrote:
<snip!>
Good job. You might want to submit this to Zanzibar's page. It
clarifies the Wyrm's POV.
>ps Here is a puzzle: How many Urge Wyrms are there? There is the Wyrm,
>then the Three triatic wyrms. So are there thirteen Urge Wyrms? The
>numbers always matter.
The Urge Wyrms are categorized in the Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth
and, possibly, the Book of the Wyrm. Note that in Rage Across New
York, the Defiler was considered an Urge Wyrm.
Alik S. Widge
In article <585dk3$hqi$1...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>
kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu (Kyle Anderson Felker) writes:
> Well, remember how much the big W (I really like that) loves paradox.
> And no, not the kind of paradox that makes magi into clambake, I'm
> talking intellectual paradox. I don't see why on earth the wyrm wouldn't
> know that it's one being, yet insist that it's three, just to be
> perverse. And each head really beleives that it's the One True Wyrm(tm),
> while simultaneously knowing that it's just an aspect of the larger Big
> W.
I can buy into that one. Looking at my handy reference copy of
Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth, I see that the two innermost circles
are the Circle of Paradox and then the Circle of Fallacy. (I think.)
Though now we come to the question of the existence of a separate Wyrm
of Balance, which is suggested in some of the Mage books. Is it a
separate body, the ghost of that which was, or is it just another
personality floating around in the Wyrm's head(s)?
Alik
Kyle Anderson Felker
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit Alik S. Widge reports:
: > Well, remember how much the big W (I really like that) loves paradox.
: > talking intellectual paradox. I don't see why on earth the wyrm wouldn't
: > know that it's one being, yet insist that it's three, just to be
: > perverse. And each head really beleives that it's the One True Wyrm(tm),
: > while simultaneously knowing that it's just an aspect of the larger Big
: > W.
:
: I can buy into that one. Looking at my handy reference copy of
: Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth, I see that the two innermost circles
: are the Circle of Paradox and then the Circle of Fallacy. (I think.)
: Though now we come to the question of the existence of a separate Wyrm
: of Balance, which is suggested in some of the Mage books. Is it a
: separate body, the ghost of that which was, or is it just another
: personality floating around in the Wyrm's head(s)?
Well, according to the Garou, the Wyrm of Balance was the original wyrm
before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It' interesting
that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of Entropy, according to
the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that alone seems to indicate that
the Wyrm has a valid place in the universe. I think the wyrm *is* the
wyrm of balance, it's just maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose
because of being snagged in the pattern web. That's what kind of annoys
me about the Garou, they're all screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when
in fact, killing the wyrm utterly would upset the universe even more. It
seems to me that what they really need to do is start trying in earnest
to reunite the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to
it's place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather than
corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm biased.
D. Alexander Rushing
> Well, according to the Garou, the Wyrm of Balance was the original wyrm
> before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It' interesting
> that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of Entropy, according to
> the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that alone seems to indicate that
> the Wyrm has a valid place in the universe. I think the wyrm *is* the
> wyrm of balance, it's just maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose
> because of being snagged in the pattern web. That's what kind of annoys
> me about the Garou, they're all screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when
> in fact, killing the wyrm utterly would upset the universe even more. It
> seems to me that what they really need to do is start trying in earnest
> to reunite the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to
> it's place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather than
> corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm biased.
That's the tragic flaw in Werewolf: the Apocalypse. The Garou are not very
rational when it comes to defending Gaia, so their automatic knee-jerk
reaction is to kill anything that threatens Her. Thus their attack on the
Wyrm. That is why the Wyrm shall never be destroyed by the Garou. However,
the worldview of the Garou is that the Wyrm is now an unocntrollable evil
that must be destroyed, so any Gaarou who attempt another option are
generally considered Wyrm-tainted. Considering the scope of the Wyrm's
insanity, I doubt it will ever be healed. Considering most _mortals_ with
mental problems cannot be cured, then I doubt that one of the primal
forces in the universe can be...It makes a grreat plot device, however!
Gwydion
Josh Teitelbaum
On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu (Alik S. Widge) wrote:
>
> > The problem, as Kestrel suggests, is that each wyrm and all it's
> > servants thinks of itself as the one "true" wyrm. Thus, you often get
> > different heads of the hydra working at cross-purposes or even
> > outright warring on each other. This divides the Wyrm's forces and
> > makes them less effective, not more.
>
> > I think that the three heads do recognize that none of them is
> > actually the true Wyrm. On the other hand, they still argue about who
> > should be in charge of things.
>
> > Remember, three heads, but only one body.
>
> Three?
>
> Now, I realize you're probably talking about Eater-of-Souls, Defiler,
> and Beast-of-War... but I can count eight or nine, perhaps even more,
> in my copy of _Book of the Wyrm_. Urge-Wyrms, that is. (Foebok,
> Urge-Wyrm of Fear, comes to mind as one that doesn't quite fit any
> of the aspects of the three above. To list more, I'd have to keep my
> book handy.)
>
> Perhaps the three commonly acknowledged manifestations (Eater-of-Souls,
> Defiler, Beast-of-War) are the primary contenders in the Urge-Wyrm
> battle for dominance?
>
> -- Sven Skoog
>
>
No. It's levels of power that seperate the Triatic Wyrm
(Eater-of-Souls, Beast-Of-War, and the Defiler Wyrm) from the Urge Wyrms.
Each of the Triatic Wyrm is a greater Celestine, on the level of Luna,
Helios, and so on. The Urge Wyrms are Incarna of these Celestines.
Alik S. Widge
In article <58c6ui$mnb$1...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>
kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu (Kyle Anderson Felker) writes:
> Well, according to the Garou, the Wyrm of Balance was the original wyrm
> before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It' interesting
> that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of Entropy, according to
> the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that alone seems to indicate that
> the Wyrm has a valid place in the universe.
Oh, it's definitely got a place. Among other things, can you imagine
what would happen if the Garou didn't have it to fight and there were
no Nephandi to bother the Technos? The poor mortals wouldn't stand a
chance.
> I think the wyrm *is* the
> wyrm of balance, it's just maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose
> because of being snagged in the pattern web. That's what kind of annoys
> me about the Garou, they're all screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when
> in fact, killing the wyrm utterly would upset the universe even more. It
> seems to me that what they really need to do is start trying in earnest
> to reunite the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to
> it's place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather than
> corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm biased.
Hmmm. Perhaps. However, look in Umbra: The Velvet Shadow, under
Pangaea. The description of the Elder Serpent is rather interesting,
because it raises the possibility that it is "a manifestation of the
Wyrm of Balance." That indicates to me the existence of a Wyrm which
nobody sees, perhaps much weakened, but still there, the Wyrm as it was
in the beginning. Sort of like someone who's gone mad and suffered a
personality shift. The original personality may still be "in there"
somewhere; all it takes is the proper trigger.
I still think all they need to do is get the Wyrm on a psychiatrist's
couch for a bit...
Alik
Kyle Anderson Felker
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit Alik S. Widge reports:
:
: what would happen if the Garou didn't have it to fight and there were
: no Nephandi to bother the Technos? The poor mortals wouldn't stand a
: chance.
Well, not all of the Nephs who say "Nee!" are working for the wyrm. Many
serve the Things that Must Not Be, or haven't the foggiest notion of what
the Wyrm *is*.
(snip)
: Hmmm. Perhaps. However, look in Umbra: The Velvet Shadow, under
: Pangaea. The description of the Elder Serpent is rather interesting,
: because it raises the possibility that it is "a manifestation of the
: Wyrm of Balance." That indicates to me the existence of a Wyrm which
: nobody sees, perhaps much weakened, but still there, the Wyrm as it was
: in the beginning. Sort of like someone who's gone mad and suffered a
: personality shift. The original personality may still be "in there"
: somewhere; all it takes is the proper trigger.
That's what I think as well. The Elder Serent may well be a sort of Wyrm
Hobgoblin (in mage terms), representing the original Wyrm of
Balance...Hmmm, maybe if the Stargazers could sit it down and talk to it,
they could get some idea of how to cure the wyrm, no? Sounds like an
interesting story idea.
:
: I still think all they need to do is get the Wyrm on a psychiatrist's
: couch for a bit...
:
: Alik
--
ell...@nccn.net
Kyle Anderson Felker wrote:
>
> My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit Alik S. Widge reports:
> : > And no, not the kind of paradox that makes magi into clambake, I'm
> : > talking intellectual paradox. I don't see why on earth the wyrm wouldn't
> : > know that it's one being, yet insist that it's three, just to be
> : > perverse. And each head really beleives that it's the One True Wyrm(tm),
> : > while simultaneously knowing that it's just an aspect of the larger Big
> : > W.
> :
> : I can buy into that one. Looking at my handy reference copy of
> : Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth, I see that the two innermost circles
> : are the Circle of Paradox and then the Circle of Fallacy. (I think.)
> : Though now we come to the question of the existence of a separate Wyrm
> : of Balance, which is suggested in some of the Mage books. Is it a
> : separate body, the ghost of that which was, or is it just another
> : personality floating around in the Wyrm's head(s)?
>
> before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It' interesting
> that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of Entropy, according to
> the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that alone seems to indicate that
> wyrm of balance, it's just maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose
> because of being snagged in the pattern web. That's what kind of annoys
> me about the Garou, they're all screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when
> in fact, killing the wyrm utterly would upset the universe even more. It
> seems to me that what they really need to do is start trying in earnest
> to reunite the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to
> it's place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather than
> corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm biased.
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Kyle Felker (kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu)
>
> "Boil, boil, toil and trouble
> Fire burn and cauldron bubble!"
> - Shakespeare, _Macbeth_
> ---------------------------------------
I've always had a problem with that "trapped in the Pattern Web" thing.
Exactly what does that mean? I have one explanation: The Triat exists
outside of the Tellurian, on a larger cosmic scale uncomprehendable to
frail physical beings, or even spirits less than Greater Celestines.
Since Order and the Weaver correspond to matter, when the Wyrm got
trapped into the pattern Web it was woven into the fabric of the
Universe, actually becoming part of the Universe, as opposed to a
function of the Universe. When this happened, it became unable to
control its balance; where the Wyrm goes, death and destruction follow.
It fights madly to escape ffrom the Tellurian, so strikes at the Order
of the Weaver and the Creation of the Wyld, for only when they both die
can it be free, and at peace.
However, I'm partial to an entirely different explanation. The Garou
are obviously biased against the Weaver, so they would naturally choose
to make it the enemy. However....
What if, in the Beginning, the Triat was sturctured like this: The Wyld
is at the outside of the Tellurian, creating away. Along the inside of
that is the guiding web of the Weaver; giving the creations form, and at
the same time restricting the Wyrm, forcing it to follow the rules of
the Tellurian as it balances the creation of the Universe. Now, one day,
a smart little monkey discovers the secret of fire, which was building
for quite some time. This really sucked for the Triat for a couple of
reasons. First of all, the Weaver and the Wyld could not create without
conflict; the nature of their joining, their collision, and their
combining was what made the Tellurian. The creation of intelligence
required huge amounts of Wyld energies (to fuel the creativity and soul
of the mind) and the Weaver (the strucutre and rationality, the ability
to develop). Lots of creation+lot's of conflict. The ripples sent off
from the power of this conflict irrevocably altered the Tellurian, and
had Paradox been a problem then, it would have sent the Mage population
for a loop. This caused the division of matter and spirit, and the
forming of the Gauntlet.
Also, this growing energy, all within a small lump of fleshy material
within the skull of a primitive creature, sent the Wyrm into agony. The
ultimate imbalance, huge spirit energies within the tiniest mote of
pattern. Here is where things go wrong, and the Wyrm burst through the
Weaver web, and began to devour the Universe. There you have it: The
Apocalypse by...
Mantoinelle, son of Anansi, warrior of Ananansa, and party guy!
ThunderFoot
Creepy Kyle spoke into the wind -
` Well, according to the Garou, the Wyrm of Balance was the original
`wyrm before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It'
`interesting that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of
`Entropy, according to the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that
`alone seems to indicate that the Wyrm has a valid place in the
`universe. I think the wyrm *is* the wyrm of balance, it's just
`maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose because of being
`snagged in the pattern web.
And I don't even think it's forgotten it's true purpose... It _still_
works balance the Weaver and the Wyld. Pentex set up to
damage the overpowered Wyld, _but_ set up with a built-in safety
catch so everyone would rebel against the means it used and thus limit
technology at the same time...
`That's what kind of annoys me about the Garou, they're all
`screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when in fact, killing the wyrm
`utterly would upset the universe even more. It seems to me that
`what they really need to do is start trying in earnest to reunite
`the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to it's
`place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather
`than corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm
`biased.
It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is to
genocide the Garou...
But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
-- nihil No man is an island, save I,
mutatem eroded by this sea of despair.
omni
deletum ThunderFoot.
K Kuhn
In article <32AE0C...@nccn.net>, ell...@nccn.net wrote:
<snipped some interesting speculations>
.
> Also, this growing energy, all within a small lump of fleshy material
> within the skull of a primitive creature, sent the Wyrm into agony. The
> ultimate imbalance, huge spirit energies within the tiniest mote of
> pattern. Here is where things go wrong, and the Wyrm burst through the
> Weaver web, and began to devour the Universe. There you have it: The
> Apocalypse by...
> Mantoinelle, son of Anansi, warrior of Ananansa, and party guy!
Well, actually, I've never been quite as sure as the Garou that Gaia is
simply an innocent victim of circumstance. Now, if werewolves worship a
totem, that totem gains power, and if enough worship it, it can become a
Greater Incarna, or vice versa if they stop worshipping it - look at the
White Howler's Lion. Now, if intelligence is necessary to choose to
follow a spirit and gives more power to the spirit chosen, then maybe Gaia
created humans and weres deliberately, to gain more power for herself by
getting intelligent life to worship her. And there is that story that the
Weaver went mad once intelligent life came into being, as after that is
when the Weaver became mad, and then trapped the Wyrm. Now, maybe Gaia
didn't mean for this to happen, but isn't willing to relinquish the power
she gains from intelligent weres believing in her. But maybe she knew
quite well that two-thirds of the Triat would go mad, but thought that
with the additional power she gained by the deed, she could destroy the
Triat while they were fighting each other and take over totally. Of
course, this hearkens back to the orginal W:tA, where the Triat was
greater than Gaia instead of vice versa, and assumes that maybe Gaia isn't
all that nice a spirit. But then, I've never liked the revised idea that
Gaia created the Triat, because if she has that much power, why hasn't she
debugged them yet?
devilBoy
>
> It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is to
> genocide the Garou...
>
> But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
>
"We told ya so!" I'm a Black Spiral, and I'm real biased... ];)
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
mailto:devi...@eViliVe.com Mankind is inherently evil...
http://www.eViliVe.com/ Regardless of your perspective.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
sv...@ll.mit.edu
ell...@nccn.net wrote:
> I've always had a problem with that "trapped in the Pattern Web"
> thing. Exactly what does that mean?
I always figured it was a thinly veiled rip-off from Stephen R.
Donaldson's _Covenant_ series, actually. ;)
> I have one explanation: The Triat exists outside of the Tellurian, on
> a larger cosmic scale uncomprehendable to frail physical beings, or
> even spirits less than Greater Celestines. Since Order and the Weaver
> correspond to matter, when the Wyrm got trapped into the pattern Web
> it was woven into the fabric of the Universe, actually becoming part
> of the Universe, as opposed to a function of the Universe. When this
> happened, it became unable to control its balance; where the Wyrm
> goes, death and destruction follow. It fights madly to escape from
> the Tellurian, so strikes at the Order of the Weaver and the Creation
> of the Wyld, for only when they both die can it be free, and at peace.
...which is a more-or-less exact replica of Donaldson's _Covenant_
books, in which Lord Foul (the Despiser, Lord of Corruption, a hundred
other names) is inadvertently trapped inside Creation by the Creator.
Foul spends the rest of eternity wreaking havoc inside his prison, in
hopes of angering the Creator to the point where He will break His
creation wide open in anger, so the two can fight face to face again.
It has never happened as yet, however, and the two godlike entities are
forever trapped in a celestial cold war, one outside looking in, one
inside looking out, as it were.
The concept is certainly appealing enough for use in the WoD.
-- S. Skoog
K Kuhn
In article <58ss73$rm6$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu
(Kyle Anderson Felker) wrote:
<snip>
> : And I don't even think it's forgotten it's true purpose... It _still_
> : works balance the Weaver and the Wyld. Pentex set up to
> : damage the overpowered Wyld, _but_ set up with a built-in safety
> : catch so everyone would rebel against the means it used and thus limit
> : technology at the same time...
>
> I thought the Wyld areas on earth were scarce? Judging from the main
> rulebook, it's the wyrm that's overpowered, but then, it is written from
> a garouocentric viewpoint. By safety catch, do you mean pentex's split
> internal loyalties, or something else altogether?
Just to add a few random thoughts to the discussion, why does everyone
assume that the wilderness = Wyld? (Besides WW saying that, but I'll
ignore that for now.) Now, if the Wyld is pure change, how can you say
that an undespoiled forest that's been an undespoiled forest for the last
several centuries is the embodiment of change, while an undespoiled
wilderness that gets cut, bulldozed, etc. to form a city that springs up,
sprawls all over the map, gets burned or bombed a few times in less than a
hundred years is not? Of course, the Garou would say that they can see
the Weaver weaving out of control in the cities, and not see it in the
wilderness. But, if the Weaver is *supposed* to make order out of the
forces the Wyld unleashes, and it's problem isn't that it's ignoring its
job but that it's doing it too well, wouldn't evidence of the Weaver's
presence be prima facie evidence that it's there *because* there is a
strong Wyld presence beforehand? If the Weaver isn't in an area, it could
just as well be that there's no Wyld there to attract it in the first
place.
Of course, this means that if the Garou prefer undespoiled wilderness
areas, then they actually are agents of the Weaver, instead of the Wyld.
But then, the Impergium, where they limited the number of humans around to
keep them in their current place, and their current struggle to get things
back to the "good old days, when the wilderness was huge and wolves were
all over the place" always seemed to me to be the reactions of a bunch of
born conservatives.
<snip>
Kyle Anderson Felker
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit ThunderFoot reports:
: Creepy Kyle spoke into the wind -
THBBBBBBBT!!! :)
:
: ` Well, according to the Garou, the Wyrm of Balance was the original
: `wyrm before it was trapped in the pattern web and stagnated. It'
: `interesting that Maelfeas is one of the Shentis, the Shenti of
: `Entropy, according to the Book of Worlds. If nothing else, that
: `alone seems to indicate that the Wyrm has a valid place in the
: `universe. I think the wyrm *is* the wyrm of balance, it's just
: `maddened and has forgotten it's true purpose because of being
: `snagged in the pattern web.
:
: And I don't even think it's forgotten it's true purpose... It _still_
: works balance the Weaver and the Wyld. Pentex set up to
: damage the overpowered Wyld, _but_ set up with a built-in safety
: catch so everyone would rebel against the means it used and thus limit
: technology at the same time...
I thought the Wyld areas on earth were scarce? Judging from the main
rulebook, it's the wyrm that's overpowered, but then, it is written from
a garouocentric viewpoint. By safety catch, do you mean pentex's split
internal loyalties, or something else altogether?
:
: `That's what kind of annoys me about the Garou, they're all
: `screaming "kill the Wyrm! Die, die!" when in fact, killing the wyrm
: `utterly would upset the universe even more. It seems to me that
: `what they really need to do is start trying in earnest to reunite
: `the wyrm and free it from the pattern web, restoring it to it's
: `place as the Wyrm of Balance, a natural force of entropy rather
: `than corruption. But then, I usually play Stargazers, so I'm
: `biased.
:
: It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is to
: genocide the Garou...
And the other shapeshifters too? I mean, it's not like the werewolves
have a monopoly on being destructive...
:
: But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
Nonsense, Evan. You're a ragabash and you know it.
Kyle Anderson Felker
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit ell...@nccn.net reports:
: I've always had a problem with that "trapped in the Pattern Web" thing.
: Exactly what does that mean? I have one explanation: The Triat exists
: outside of the Tellurian, on a larger cosmic scale uncomprehendable to
: frail physical beings, or even spirits less than Greater Celestines.
: Since Order and the Weaver correspond to matter, when the Wyrm got
: trapped into the pattern Web it was woven into the fabric of the
: Universe, actually becoming part of the Universe, as opposed to a
: function of the Universe. When this happened, it became unable to
: control its balance; where the Wyrm goes, death and destruction follow.
: of the Weaver and the Creation of the Wyld, for only when they both die
: can it be free, and at peace.
I think so. Being trapped in the web sort of made it stagnate, and it's
entropy turned into corruption. Remember, kiddies, entropy is our
freind, corruption is not.
(snip)
: within the skull of a primitive creature, sent the Wyrm into agony. The
: ultimate imbalance, huge spirit energies within the tiniest mote of
: pattern. Here is where things go wrong, and the Wyrm burst through the
: Weaver web, and began to devour the Universe. There you have it: The
: Apocalypse by...
: Mantoinelle, son of Anansi, warrior of Ananansa, and party guy!
It's not clear if sentience itself is the problem. I mean, in all the
fables of the time before the division, you've got talking animals and
people that seem sentient. Plus which, collision of the weaver and wyld
on a grand scale really doesn't seem imbalanced.
Maybe the problem came when the garou, via the impergium, practically
drove the humans mad. Maybe they're now instinctively afraid of
wyld-things, so the turned to the weaver, which caused a power imbalance.
ThunderFoot
Karen and Kyle engaged in conversation with I (Aren't they nice?):
`>: And I don't even think it's forgotten it's true purpose... It
`>: _still_ works balance the Weaver and the Wyld. Pentex set up to
`>: damage the overpowered Wyld, _but_ set up with a built-in safety
`>: catch so everyone would rebel against the means it used and thus
`>: limit technology at the same time...
`> I thought the Wyld areas on earth were scarce? Judging from the
`> main rulebook, it's the wyrm that's overpowered, but then, it is
`> written from a garouocentric viewpoint.
I see it as being something that's been going since the war of rage
when the Garou (Ostensibly children of the wyld) were out of control
(going wild!) and killing far more then they should and getting ready
to cull the planet... Pentex is just the final stages of something
that's been around since then to drag them under control.
`>By safety catch, do you mean pentex's split internal loyalties, or
`>something else altogether?
I mean their actual methods, the use of corruption instead of "nicer"
methods to obtain balance. Of course nicer methods would not
have worked on the out of control Garou, especially seeing it's
_still_ taken this long to get them down to a reasonable level.
The Wyrms plan is reaching completion, the Garou are depleted,
technology is distrusted and the world is _almost_ at an equilibrium
for the first time in thousands of years. In the next few years
the Wyrm will leave Pentex to it's own devices and let it be wiped out
by market forces rebelling against it's methods. The Wyrm doesn't
care, Pentex and corruption have served their purpose and are no
longer needed.
` Just to add a few random thoughts to the discussion, why does
`everyone assume that the wilderness = Wyld? (Besides WW saying
`that, but I'll ignore that for now.) Now, if the Wyld is pure
`change, how can you say that an undespoiled forest that's been an
`undespoiled forest for the last several centuries is the embodiment
`of change, while an undespoiled wilderness that gets cut,
`bulldozed, etc. to form a city that springs up, sprawls all over
`the map, gets burned or bombed a few times in less than a hundred
`years is not?
A VERY interesting point I'd never considered...
`Of course, the Garou would say that they can see the Weaver weaving
`out of control in the cities, and not see it in the wilderness.
`But, if the Weaver is *supposed* to make order out of the forces
`the Wyld unleashes, and it's problem isn't that it's ignoring its
`job but that it's doing it too well, wouldn't evidence of the
`Weaver's presence be prima facie evidence that it's there *because*
`there is a strong Wyld presence beforehand? If the Weaver isn't in
`an area, it could just as well be that there's no Wyld there to
`attract it in the first place.
`
` Of course, this means that if the Garou prefer undespoiled
`wilderness areas, then they actually are agents of the Weaver,
`instead of the Wyld. But then, the Impergium, where they limited
`the number of humans around to keep them in their current place,
`and their current struggle to get things back to the "good old
`days, when the wilderness was huge and wolves were all over the
`place" always seemed to me to be the reactions of a bunch of
`born conservatives.
Laugh. That's beautiful... The Garou work for stasis and destruction
while Pentex creates and changes and the cities are areas of change,
birthing, growing, spreading, birthing new cities, eventually
rotting from the inside and dying off like some giant lifeform
(Exactly like the Great Barrier Reef), the latest example of evolution
and change on the part of the Wyld, leaving biology behind and moving
into meta-life...
ThunderFoot
` My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit ThunderFoot reports:
` : Creepy Kyle spoke into the wind -
` THBBBBBBBT!!! :)
Please don't do that full-faced...
` I thought the Wyld areas on earth were scarce? Judging from the
`main rulebook, it's the wyrm that's overpowered, but then, it is
`written from a garouocentric viewpoint. By safety catch, do you
`mean pentex's split internal loyalties, or something else
`altogether?
` : It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is
` : to genocide the Garou...
` And the other shapeshifters too? I mean, it's not like the
` werewolves have a monopoly on being destructive...
All sentient life actually... Then I can live in peace...
And rest...
` : But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
` Nonsense, Evan. You're a ragabash and you know it.
Nah, that's just a joke...
Kyle Anderson Felker
> <58jh7e$h...@droppa.tpgi.com.au> <58ss73$rm6$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu> <590vtr$e...@droppa.tpgi.com.au>
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Distribution:
:
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit ThunderFoot reports:
: ` : Creepy Kyle spoke into the wind -
: ` THBBBBBBBT!!! :)
:
: Please don't do that full-faced...
Hanky? :)
(snip)
: ` And the other shapeshifters too? I mean, it's not like the
: ` werewolves have a monopoly on being destructive...
:
: All sentient life actually... Then I can live in peace...
: And rest...
What, when *everything* is dead and gone? Well, I suppose it *would* be
pretty peaceful then...
:
: ` : But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
: ` Nonsense, Evan. You're a ragabash and you know it.
:
: Nah, that's just a joke...
One someone's playing on you, or one you're playing on us?
:
: -- nihil No man is an island, save I,
: mutatem eroded by this sea of despair.
: omni
: deletum ThunderFoot.
:
Kyle Anderson Felker
> <58c6ui$mnb$1...@thorn.cc.usm.edu> <58jh7e$h...@droppa.tpgi.com.au> <58ss73$rm6$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu> <kknolte-1312...@ecity6.ecity.net> <58vmmg$b...@droppa.tpgi.com.au>
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Distribution:
:
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit ThunderFoot reports:
: `> written from a garouocentric viewpoint.
: I see it as being something that's been going since the war of rage
: when the Garou (Ostensibly children of the wyld) were out of control
: (going wild!) and killing far more then they should and getting ready
: to cull the planet... Pentex is just the final stages of something
: that's been around since then to drag them under control.
That is just evil. I like it! But what about the Omega Plan? I mean,
if the wyrm really isn't nuts and it's just trying to reighn the Garou
back under control, then wouldn't it think destroying the world would be
a bad thing? Or do you buy into the entire plan and see Pentex's
eventual re-emergence as a supreme world power (okay, potential
emergence) as the wyrm of balance creating new equilibrium?
:
: `>By safety catch, do you mean pentex's split internal loyalties, or
: `>something else altogether?
:
: I mean their actual methods, the use of corruption instead of "nicer"
: methods to obtain balance. Of course nicer methods would not
By "nicer", do you mean pure entropy rather than corruption?
: have worked on the out of control Garou, especially seeing it's
: _still_ taken this long to get them down to a reasonable level.
: The Wyrms plan is reaching completion, the Garou are depleted,
: technology is distrusted and the world is _almost_ at an equilibrium
: for the first time in thousands of years. In the next few years
: the Wyrm will leave Pentex to it's own devices and let it be wiped out
: by market forces rebelling against it's methods. The Wyrm doesn't
: care, Pentex and corruption have served their purpose and are no
: longer needed.
So then what happens? The wyrm finds new methods? Leaves the palying
field altogether? What about it's other tools, the spirals and banes and
such? If we accept what you're positing, then the wyrm has to
*eventually* slack off some, or it destroys the balance it's spent so
long creating.
:
: ` Just to add a few random thoughts to the discussion, why does
: `everyone assume that the wilderness = Wyld? (Besides WW saying
: `that, but I'll ignore that for now.) Now, if the Wyld is pure
: `change, how can you say that an undespoiled forest that's been an
: `undespoiled forest for the last several centuries is the embodiment
: `of change, while an undespoiled wilderness that gets cut,
: `bulldozed, etc. to form a city that springs up, sprawls all over
: `the map, gets burned or bombed a few times in less than a hundred
: `years is not?
:
: A VERY interesting point I'd never considered...
I'd like to point out that the glass walkers make a point of *not* saying
that. They're the ones always going on about how cities are just as much
"Gaia" as the wilderness.
(snip)
: Laugh. That's beautiful... The Garou work for stasis and destruction
: while Pentex creates and changes and the cities are areas of change,
: birthing, growing, spreading, birthing new cities, eventually
: rotting from the inside and dying off like some giant lifeform
: (Exactly like the Great Barrier Reef), the latest example of evolution
: and change on the part of the Wyld, leaving biology behind and moving
: into meta-life...
Wow. Es muy interessante, no? That would put the glass Walkers as the
real agents of the Wyld, they're the only ones who seem willing to adapt
and change to survive on this new meta-lifeform...well, maybe the Bone
Gnawers, too, and means the Garou nation itself is a stagnant
weaver-thing that's only now dying it's natural death. What the garou
see as the "horror of the wyrm" is really the spectre of their fear
because their own demise is at hand. That fits nicely into my own
favorite argument that the wyrm is just a face the garou have given to a
natural metaphysical force of entropy that just happens to have been on
the increase in the past few hundred years.
:
Li2CO3
ell...@nccn.net wrote:
> I've always had a problem with that "trapped in the Pattern Web" thing.
> Exactly what does that mean?
I read in a book of conjecture about human consciousness that language
evolved as a form of empathy, a survival trait suited for collective
rather than individual societies. The empathy began as a way of
anticipating other's actions, and as a side-effect included an
anticipation of the other's emotional states.
Eventually when the objectification and symbolising of the other and
another self reached a critical point and when the other died the self
was aware of its own death.
I think this is the point where the weaver (language as a symbolic
strucure) trapped the wyrm. And surely enough a previously simple way
for sexually reproductive species to ensure that the older generations
didn't hog the food supply became a horror of Ceasing to be!
Of course Self-awareness also results from an awareness of death.
Li2CO3
-maybe not a strictly WoD post, but it plays on the same archetypes
JeffBD
devilBoy wrote:
>
> >
> > It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is to
> > genocide the Garou...
> >
> >
>
Apart from the Garou themselves, I can see no reason why any of the
other races in the WoD would mourn their extinction.
--
**** Mater tua caligas gerit. ****
J.W.Thomas
In article <kknolte-1312...@ecity6.ecity.net>,
K Kuhn <kkn...@ecity.net> wrote:
>In article <58ss73$rm6$2...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu
>(Kyle Anderson Felker) wrote:
>
><snip>
>> : works balance the Weaver and the Wyld. Pentex set up to
>> : damage the overpowered Wyld, _but_ set up with a built-in safety
>> : catch so everyone would rebel against the means it used and thus limit
>> : technology at the same time...
>>
>> rulebook, it's the wyrm that's overpowered, but then, it is written from
>
>areas, then they actually are agents of the Weaver, instead of the Wyld.
>But then, the Impergium, where they limited the number of humans around to
>keep them in their current place, and their current struggle to get things
>back to the "good old days, when the wilderness was huge and wolves were
>all over the place" always seemed to me to be the reactions of a bunch of
>born conservatives.
>
the Garou, supposedly creatures of the Wyld and gaia's protectors run in
PACKS
with a complex ordered internal rank system, a fivefold personality steriotype
that they all tend to based on the moons phase when they were born, and a
tribe system to order and regiment the packs...
hey kids, can you say 'WEAVER!!!!!'?
If they ever loose control (rage ) they totally loose it, (6 successes) to
such an extent that they do unspeakable things.
I'd say they were Weaver before Wyld, with Wyrm corruption.
Its the same with Vampires.
never growing old. never dying. getting stronger and stronger as they get
older. not really entropy is it?
organised into clans, each with the same flaws.
political creatues that love to organise, control, play rank and pecking
order games
WEAVER again
the Beast, the wyld emotional side, is to be feared and controled
Weaver
with a hint of wrym corruption as they can spread corruption...
but thats each vampires rite by there actions, not there rebirth
The WoD races seem to split down like this
Garou weaver/wyld
black spiral dancers weaver/wrym
Vampires weaver
malkavians weaver/wlyd
mages weaver
nephandi weaver/wrym
marauders wyld
comments?
CHOPPER The god is absent
ChOpPeR His dead leaves are piling
cHoPpEr And all is deserted
chopper -Basho
ThunderFoot
` > > It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is
` > > to genocide the Garou...
` > > But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
` > "We told ya so!" I'm a Black Spiral, and I'm real biased...
` Apart from the Garou themselves, I can see no reason why any of
` the other races in the WoD would mourn their extinction.
Should the universe finally be devoured by the Greater Yawning Dark,
I can see no-one mourning it's extinction...
ThunderFoot
` : I see it as being something that's been going since the war of
` : of control (going wild!) and killing far more then they should
` : and getting ready to cull the planet... Pentex is just the final
` : stages of something that's been around since then to drag them
` : under control.
`
` That is just evil. I like it! But what about the Omega Plan? I
` mean, if the wyrm really isn't nuts and it's just trying to reighn
` the Garou back under control, then wouldn't it think destroying
` the world would be a bad thing?
Well, it's possible the entire tapestry would need to be unravelled
and rewoven, though I don't think that the case here...
` Or do you buy into the entire plan and see Pentex's
` eventual re-emergence as a supreme world power (okay, potential
` emergence) as the wyrm of balance creating new equilibrium?
I don't think Pentex will succeed, it's like overreaching to regain
your balance, you put your arms out as far as you can and sway a bit
from side to side before you get back to the middle, but you don't
fall over to _either_ side.
` : I mean their actual methods, the use of corruption instead of
` : "nicer" methods to obtain balance. Of course nicer methods would
` : not
` By "nicer", do you mean pure entropy rather than corruption?
No. "Corruption" is a very loaded term that in the end falls back
to personal value judgements about good and evil, what makes
a difference between types of death but the opinions of the people
they affect? Balance need not only use destructive methods, but
anything it feels like including rewards for good behaviour...
Good and evil is an entirely separate axis from Wyrm, Weaver, Wyld.
` : have worked on the out of control Garou, especially seeing it's
` : _still_ taken this long to get them down to a reasonable level.
` : The Wyrms plan is reaching completion, the Garou are depleted,
` : technology is distrusted and the world is _almost_ at an
` : equilibrium for the first time in thousands of years. In the
` : next few years the Wyrm will leave Pentex to it's own devices
` : and let it be wiped out by market forces rebelling against it's
` : methods. The Wyrm doesn't care, Pentex and corruption have
` : served their purpose and are no longer needed.
` So then what happens? The wyrm finds new methods? Leaves the
`palying field altogether? What about it's other tools, the spirals
`and banes and such?
I was kinda lumping them together, but I actually think the spirals
serve solely themselves... They are sentient beings and have to
take full responsibility for their own actions, when it finally
comes down to it they are evil people, not corrupt at all, they have
no-one to blame but themselves... In the centre of the spiral they
come face-to-face with the corruptor, with all that makes them evil,
but it's not an abyss, but a mirror and _that_ is what drives them
mad, the realisation that they did it all because they wanted to...
Banes, on the other hand, being spirits are slaves to their nature and
aren't really sentient creatures at all.
`If we accept what you're positing, then the
`wyrm has to *eventually* slack off some, or it destroys the balance
`it's spent so long creating.
It's already slacking off, not by pulling that arm in, but by
putting out the other one, the environmental conscious of the
general human populous which is growing so fast it disgusts me.
In the end you never maintain balance by trying to stand on the
line, but by placing one foot firmly on each side...
` : A VERY interesting point I'd never considered...
` I'd like to point out that the glass walkers make a point of *not*
`saying that. They're the ones always going on about how cities are
`just as much "Gaia" as the wilderness.
` : Laugh. That's beautiful... The Garou work for stasis and
` : destruction while Pentex creates and changes and the cities are
` : areas of change, birthing, growing, spreading, birthing new
` : cities, eventually rotting from the inside and dying off like
` : some giant lifeform (Exactly like the Great Barrier Reef), the
` : latest example of evolution and change on the part of the Wyld,
` : leaving biology behind and moving into meta-life...
` Wow. Es muy interessante, no? That would put the glass Walkers
`as the real agents of the Wyld, they're the only ones who seem
`willing to adapt and change to survive on this new
`meta-lifeform...
Actually, even the Glass Walkers, though not as stagnant, still aren't
creatures of change... The only one I'd say is an agent of
the Wyld is the Wyld...
`well, maybe the Bone Gnawers, too, and means the Garou nation
`itself is a stagnant weaver-thing that's only now dying it's
`natural death. What the garou see as the "horror of the wyrm" is
`really the spectre of their fear because their own demise is at
`hand. That fits nicely into my own favorite argument that the wyrm
`is just a face the garou have given to a natural metaphysical force
`of entropy that just happens to have been on the increase in the
`past few hundred years.
Nod. I generally put forward something similar, that the Wyrm is
something used as an excuse so people can escape responsibility for
their own actions, "The Devil made me do it..."
ThunderFoot
` : ` : Creepy Kyle spoke into the wind -
` : ` THBBBBBBBT!!! :)
` : Please don't do that full-faced...
` Hanky? :)
Thank ye.
` : ` And the other shapeshifters too? I mean, it's not like the
` : ` werewolves have a monopoly on being destructive...
` : All sentient life actually... Then I can live in peace...
` : And rest...
` What, when *everything* is dead and gone? Well, I suppose it
` *would* be pretty peaceful then...
At the moment there are too many damnable distractions...
I'm sorry, but you all brought this on yourself.
` : ` : But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
` : ` Nonsense, Evan. You're a ragabash and you know it.
` : Nah, that's just a joke...
` One someone's playing on you, or one you're playing on us?
Would I play a joke on you? On myself?
Not only the Ragabash have senses of humour...
And if a Philodox must destroy to stop the pain...
Well, it seems a joke to me...
Softly stepping a fragile way
Try not to break another day
Close the shades and dim the lights
The conflict hurts my eyes...
cd skogsberg
In <59lof0$7...@droppa.tpgi.com.au>, egi...@undaware.com.au
(ThunderFoot) wrote:
>
>` > > It seems to me the best way to restore balance to the world is
>` > > to genocide the Garou...
>` > > But then, I'm a Philodox, so I'm probably biased...
>` > "We told ya so!" I'm a Black Spiral, and I'm real biased...
>` Apart from the Garou themselves, I can see no reason why any of
>` the other races in the WoD would mourn their extinction.
>
>Should the universe finally be devoured by the Greater Yawning Dark,
>I can see no-one mourning it's extinction...
But some people attempt to foresee this and "pre-mourn" the Universe.
I, personally, don't see why an end in fire (or maximum entropy, if
you prefer) would be bad - but then, it's been claimed that my room is
a powerful Entropic Node...
cd
--
Smile, they said. | Vampirism sucks.
It can only get worse, they said.|Heat Death - the *only* alternative.
So I did. | cd skogsberg
And it did. | c...@alfakonsult.se
Ian Turner
ThunderFoot wrote:
>
> No. "Corruption" is a very loaded term that in the end falls back
> to personal value judgements about good and evil, what makes
> a difference between types of death but the opinions of the people
> they affect? Balance need not only use destructive methods, but
> anything it feels like including rewards for good behaviour...
> Good and evil is an entirely separate axis from Wyrm, Weaver, Wyld.
The Wyrm is supposed to be a Destroyer. A Corrupter is a
completely different thing. When one cannot CREATE life, one must
pervert what is created by those who can to serve ones own needs.
The only reason one would need to corrupt servants from that which can
create them is if one has plans for the future and needs minions to help
realize them. The Wyrm is working cleverly within his boundaries to
come as close as he can to Creation with his powers of Destruction!
Ultimately, he only forestalls the destruction he is wreaking (much like
Gabriel in 'Prophecy' made servants by finding dying people and putting
their death 'on hold' for a while so that they could serve his needs).
As the sole Destroyer, he is making use of the leeway in his talent for
Destruction to make agents that can help him reach his goals, which,
given his deceptive nature is likeliest to be FAR from what his Banes
and Fomori and Dancers have been told...
> ` : Laugh. That's beautiful... The Garou work for stasis and
> ` : destruction while Pentex creates and changes and the cities are
> ` : areas of change, birthing, growing, spreading, birthing new
> ` : cities, eventually rotting from the inside and dying off like
> ` : some giant lifeform (Exactly like the Great Barrier Reef), the
> ` : latest example of evolution and change on the part of the Wyld,
> ` : leaving biology behind and moving into meta-life...
Truly inspired! I love it when people break the stereotypes and
turn the world on its head. 'We couldn't even beat the Shadows, how in
the Hell are we suppossed to fight the Vorlons?'
Ian Turner.
Endless
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:36:59, f3...@unb.ca (Loki a.k.a. Brynjolfr)
wrote:
>In article <euan-15119...@130.217.143.165> eu...@waikato.ac.nz (Euan
>Kilgour) writes:
>>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>>totally separate entity.
>
>Well, my take on Pentex in a Mage Chronicle I ran a few years ago was that
>Pentex was closely linked to barabbi within the Technocracy. That is, a group
>of mainly Progenitor and Syndicate barabbi were active inside Pentex, and were
>responsible for a lot of its activities.
>
>I ran this game before Book of Madness came out, but the barabbi I had inside
>Pentex showed notable similarities to Malfean Nephandi when I read it... I
>figure they're probably the easiest way to link Pentex to Mage. It's a lot
>harder to integrate Void Engineers, New World Order and Iteration X into
>Pentex's corporate structure.
>
>
>
>Loki | once sysop of TWWOL | f3...@unb.ca (preferred)
>Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson | now law student | d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
>
>~!
> http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~d_flemmi/
>
In my former chronicle, the true masterminds behind Pentex were a
group of ancient Malfean Nephandi called the Scarlet Dagger. They were
seperate from & at constant war with the Techies.
Thomas McKinnell
In article <32e5c7ca...@news.flash.net>,
Endless <kit...@flash.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:36:59, f3...@unb.ca (Loki a.k.a. Brynjolfr)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <euan-15119...@130.217.143.165> eu...@waikato.ac.nz (Euan
>>Kilgour) writes:
>>>I'd like some comments on what people think of this relationship, whether
>>>it actually exists, is an active part of one of the Conventions, or a
>>>totally separate entity.
>>
>>Well, my take on Pentex in a Mage Chronicle I ran a few years ago was that
>>Pentex was closely linked to barabbi within the Technocracy. That is, a group
>>of mainly Progenitor and Syndicate barabbi were active inside Pentex, and were
>>responsible for a lot of its activities.
>>
>>I ran this game before Book of Madness came out, but the barabbi I had inside
I think I have to agree with this approach, as if one considers the
aims of the Technocracy, as stated, they have nothing in common
with those of Pentex.... the Technocracy are the Weaver, to Pentex's
Wyrm, if you want to use garou terms.
One of the things which irritated me in (I forget which book, perhaps
the book of the Wyrm) is that it mentioned 'unexpected' opposition
to one of Pentex's plans to spread disease/drugs to corrupt the masses
from the Progenitors. These being the people responsible supposedly for
modern medicine, as well as modern drugs. Some of them are certainly
going to be against it, for humanitarian reasons, and the rest purely
to stop the competition getting in on the market ;)
But those are just the views of a self-confessed progenitor acolyte ;)
Tom
James Bardin
Pentex and the Sydicate, according to most recent Mage books, have
started to have close ties. The NWO is watching them like a hawk, since
they want the Syndicate's resources, and are just waiting for them to
slip up. The Void Engineers and Iteration X simply couldn't care less,
since both groups could blast the bloody fuckers into cosmic dust. The
Progenitors are strangely quiet, but my guess is that they are becoming
divided between the "benefactors" (who want to help humanity) and the
"users" (who want to rule humanity).
Pentex, from a Werewolf point of view, may actually be breaking down.
It's actions are getting noticed by more and more wolves and good mages,
and Monkeywrenching is becoming much easier due to Pentex's problems in
the board room with the officers trying to dominate or kill one another.
We could be looking at the end of Pentex (not that it will stop the Wyrm
any; it just means one of the Hydra's heads has been cut off).
Loki
One day, it occurred to to...@tardis.ed.ac.uk (Thomas McKinnell) to
resurrect an aging thread:
>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:36:59, f3...@unb.ca (Loki a.k.a. Brynjolfr)
>wrote:
>>Well, my take on Pentex in a Mage Chronicle I ran a few years
>>ago was that Pentex was closely linked to barabbi within the
>>Technocracy. That is, a group of mainly Progenitor and
>>Syndicate barabbi were active inside Pentex, and were
>>responsible for a lot of its activities.
>I think I have to agree with this approach, as if one considers
>the aims of the Technocracy, as stated, they have nothing in
>common with those of Pentex.... the Technocracy are the Weaver,
>to Pentex's Wyrm, if you want to use garou terms.
Yeah. But Pentex's methodology is very similar to that of the
Technocracy's. So the obvious solution is Technocracy barabbi.
>One of the things which irritated me in (I forget which book,
>perhaps the book of the Wyrm) is that it mentioned 'unexpected'
>opposition to one of Pentex's plans to spread disease/drugs to
>corrupt the masses from the Progenitors. These being the people
>responsible supposedly for modern medicine, as well as modern
>drugs. Some of them are certainly going to be against it, for
>humanitarian reasons, and the rest purely to stop the
>competition getting in on the market ;)
That quote doesn't turn up in BotW, BTW. BotW was released before MtA
so it would be a little hard for them to be talking about proggies. ;)
However... Have you read Technocracy: Progenitors yet? In it, the
Proggies are plotting to destroy all the Sleeper Avatars, as a way to
stop the Nephandi from getting any souls, basically.
No souls: no souls to steal: demons leave us alone. :)
>But those are just the views of a self-confessed progenitor acolyte ;)
Well, one has to remember that White Wolf really* doesn't treat the
Progenitors very well. I wonder sometimes if some of those guys had
bad experiences with the medical profession...
Loki --- Brynjolfr --- Redvision
f3...@unb.ca --- redv...@geocities.com --- d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
Geek Code-> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5742/#Geek
Goth Code-> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5742/#Goth
Mike Bruner
> Pentex, from a Werewolf point of view, may actually be breaking down.
> It's actions are getting noticed by more and more wolves and good mages,
> and Monkeywrenching is becoming much easier due to Pentex's problems in
> the board room with the officers trying to dominate or kill one another.
> We could be looking at the end of Pentex (not that it will stop the Wyrm
> any; it just means one of the Hydra's heads has been cut off).
Pentex dead?! (cheering) Sorry, my first love in the WOD series is
Werewolf (their response to all this angst stuff in WOD is "Let's burn
something, Beavis!" :)) so I love the thought of those bastards going
down. One wonders what the Werewolf celebration would be like when
Pentex goes down... (vampires be sure to stay home and watch the tube
and try to ignore the loud howling... ;)).
Werewolf till I die (by horrible Wyrm spawn :))
--
Mike Bruner
mbr...@knox.edu
"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
Anders Sandberg
Mike Bruner:
>Pentex dead?! (cheering) Sorry, my first love in the WOD series is
>Werewolf (their response to all this angst stuff in WOD is "Let's burn
>something, Beavis!" :)) so I love the thought of those bastards going
>down. One wonders what the Werewolf celebration would be like when
>Pentex goes down...
And the next morning the garou wake up and find the world economy crashing
together like a house of cards, bringing unemployment, despair, social
chaos and violence... ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
nv91...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
John H
Mike Bruner <mbr...@knox.edu> spit out some electrons that said:
<SNIP>
>One wonders what the Werewolf celebration would be like when
>and try to ignore the loud howling... ;)).
pass for Werewolfs would probably be out with 'em, the Gangrel that
don't would still be partying. And the Malkavians would try to join
in with the Werewolfs
>Werewolf till I die (by horrible Wyrm spawn :))
>--
>Mike Bruner
>mbr...@knox.edu
>"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
Zorp, Malkavian Council Member
-And they did cross the Andes by frog.
James Bardin
On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Mike Bruner wrote:
> > Pentex, from a Werewolf point of view, may actually be breaking down.
> > It's actions are getting noticed by more and more wolves and good mages,
> > and Monkeywrenching is becoming much easier due to Pentex's problems in
> > the board room with the officers trying to dominate or kill one another.
> > We could be looking at the end of Pentex (not that it will stop the Wyrm
> > any; it just means one of the Hydra's heads has been cut off).
>
> Pentex dead?! (cheering) Sorry, my first love in the WOD series is
> Werewolf (their response to all this angst stuff in WOD is "Let's burn
> something, Beavis!" :)) so I love the thought of those bastards going
> down. One wonders what the Werewolf celebration would be like when
> Pentex goes down... (vampires be sure to stay home and watch the tube
> and try to ignore the loud howling... ;)).
>
> Werewolf till I die (by horrible Wyrm spawn :))
I wouldn't party too much. Remember, Pentex is just one head of the
Hydra; like the Hydra, the head severed will probably cause two more to
spring up in it's place. Imagine each of the Board members setting up
their own company, staffed by Wyrm spawn, and vastly powerful? Still,
Pentex is doomed when the Syndicate shows up, buys them out, then sends in
Iteration X cyborgs to kill the Wyrm spawn, werewolves (good and bad), and
anything else that is a "threat to humanity". If it happens, better keep
yo doggy ass in the dog house, boyo!
James Bardin
On 27 Jan 1997, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Mike Bruner:
> >Pentex dead?! (cheering) Sorry, my first love in the WOD series is
> >Werewolf (their response to all this angst stuff in WOD is "Let's burn
> >something, Beavis!" :)) so I love the thought of those bastards going
> >down. One wonders what the Werewolf celebration would be like when
> >Pentex goes down...
>
> And the next morning the garou wake up and find the world economy crashing
> together like a house of cards, bringing unemployment, despair, social
> chaos and violence... ;-)
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
Sorry, but I'm afraid the Syndicate would have a field day with it.
I.E. "So, you need the economy fixed, Mr. President? Well..." They
would snatch up every tiny piece of Pentex, clean out the evil beings,
ship in about 1000 freaking people devoted to the Technocratic Cause, and
bring the world economy further under their control. Now THAT'S scarry...
John H
James Bardin <jab@JAB> spit out some electrons that said:
<SNIP>
>I.E. "So, you need the economy fixed, Mr. President? Well..." They
>would snatch up every tiny piece of Pentex, clean out the evil beings,
>ship in about 1000 freaking people devoted to the Technocratic Cause, and
>bring the world economy further under their control. Now THAT'S scarry...
the Pentax and the Wyrm. Lesser of two evils.
Anna Troy
jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (John H) wrote:
And boy would the Glasswalkers be rubbing their paws ! ;)
Anna T
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.97012...@fiona.umsmed.edu>, James Bardin <jab@JAB> writes:
|> Pentex and the Sydicate, according to most recent Mage books, have
|> started to have close ties. The NWO is watching them like a hawk, since
Where does it say that?
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
James Bardin
The NWO book says that they are "interested" in gaining the leeway
the Syndicate has over everyone. I.E. (based on the way the NWO works),
they want to absorb/disband the Syndicate. Not a good thing for the
Syndicate.
Also, recent failures to discredit paganism by making it a pop fad
(actually boosted the belief in it, much to the Verbena's delight) have
made the entire Union reanalyze their sevitude to these money-grubbing
mobsters. No one like them.