original sources for names in V:tM
verkuilen john v
As most of you have undoubtedly noticed, WW "borrowed" lots of names.
I keep running across original references to borrowed things in various books.
Obvious, or at least known, ones:
Toreador (Spanish for bullfighter)
Gangrel (archaic English for feral--JRRT calls Gollum "gangrel" frequently)
Nosferatu (the movie, and maybe something else)
Brujah (Spanish for witch)
Golconda (Indian city where diamonds were traded)
Diablerie (diabolism)
Setites (well, Set :)
Non-obvious one:
Tzimisces (surname of a Byzantine Emperor in the 11th Century, but I don't
know what else it might mean)
Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
<potentially offensive comment omitted>
Samuel Stoddard
verkuilen john v (ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: As most of you have undoubtedly noticed, WW "borrowed" lots of names.
: Obvious, or at least known, ones:
: Toreador (Spanish for bullfighter)
: Gangrel (archaic English for feral--JRRT calls Gollum "gangrel" frequently)
: Nosferatu (the movie, and maybe something else)
: Brujah (Spanish for witch)
: Golconda (Indian city where diamonds were traded)
: Diablerie (diabolism)
: Setites (well, Set :)
: Non-obvious one:
: Tzimeisces (surname of a Byzantine Emperor in the 11th Century, but I don't
: know what else it might mean)
The whole point of the books is that Vamps and other supernaturals
have controlled the world and left a mark. TO give an impression they use
old-world words.
FOr Instance
Cain
Nod
Lilith
Garou
Wraith
Specter
Stygia
Tempest
Fae
Celerity \
Fortitude => Latin for the abilitiesx they give (to see, speed, toughness)
Auspex /
Pangea
--
"No one holds command over me. No man. No god. No Prince. What is claim of
age for ones who are immortal? What is claim of power for ones who defy
death? Call your damnable hunt. We shall se who I drag screaming to hell
with me." -Gunther Dorn, Das Ungeheur Darin. Vampire The Masquerade
Dewitt C. Hauser IV
In article <4m3b08$r...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
verkuilen john v <ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Nosferatu (the movie, and maybe something else)
Eastern European term for a vampire.
>Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
>
Tremere: Latin for "To Tremble"
La Sombra: Italian (?) for the Shadow
--
=-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-
| Two Hells is one Hell too many. FAQ Maintainer for Alt.Vampyres |
| Clint Hauser, the Dark Prince kar...@madant.med.wayne.edu |
=-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-=kar...@crl.com=-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-==-*-
Doug Kern
Okay here's one:
Obeah: This originally ment a type of religon that is praacticed in the
West Indies, that involved witchcraft. I am a little currious as to why
it was used as a term for healing, since it originally had negative
cognotations.
Doug Kern
DA_...@acad.fandm.edu
Tgardner
Ventrue, Venture? Nothing Ventured, nothing gained. Could be.
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
verkuilen john v (ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: As most of you have undoubtedly noticed, WW "borrowed" lots of names.
: I keep running across original references to borrowed things in various books.
: Obvious, or at least known, ones:
Obviousness is in the eye of the beholder. I'm still waiting for someone
to ask where they got "Kindred" from :).
: Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
And lo the FAQ:
The White Wolf Word FAQ
2/26/96 (Updated a bit for this post)
Another Time-Wasting Endeavor by Ben Buckner
buc...@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
The greater portion of these are V:tM terms, since those seem to provoke
the most questions. Some W:tA and a few M:tA, W:tO, and C:tD terms have
found their way in as well. More than half of these are words I've
actually seen questions about (including most of the ones that look
obvious.) The rest are things I've anticipated since I know not everyone
has an interest in Zoroastrian mythology or Hellenistic numismatics.
There are probably still a few errors, but I have checked nearly
everything in the appropriate references, so any corrections should be
accompanied by explanations (like tell me how you know.) Obviously, with
some fabricated words (Baali, crinos, glabro, etc.), only the authors know
what was intended, but I think I've determined what the inspiration of the
coinage was in most cases.
My thanks to those who have submitted corrections and suggestions, many
of which have been incorporated since the first version.
Success at actually reducing monthly flare-ups of the "Clan Names" thread
has been limited, but maybe one day...
AHRIMANES
Ahriman was the Zoroastrian (Persian) god of evil and darkness, the
opponent of Ahura Mazda, who was not a Japanese car, but rather the
god of goodness and light and everything nice.
AHROUN
Possibly echoic of a wolf's howl (as to the full moon)? Provenance
unknown to me.
AMARANTH
A immortal flower from Greek mythology which never loses its bloom.
Hence, several modern English usages.
ANTEDILUVIAN
A seldom used English adjective meaning "from before the flood" or
metaphorically "very ancient."
ASSAMITE
One would suppose "follower of Assam" or "person from Assam." In all
liklihood, the "Assam" referred to here is Hassan as-Sabbah, a member of
the Nizari Isma'ili sect of Islam (sort of), popularly known in the West
as the Assassins. Most widely known in the Islamic world as the
Ta'limiyyah, they were an 11th century Gnostic-Dualist offshoot of Islam,
which captured the fortress of Alamut under Hassan's leadership in 1090
and continued to control it and the surrounding region, attempting to
redefine Islam and its practice through less-than-pacific means until the
fortress was taken by the Mongols in 1256. The name "Assassin" was
applied to them by crusaders from a local term "hashshashin", or "hashish
eaters." Whether this appellation was due to actual drug use among the
sect or merely just an attempt by enemies to portray them as raging
dope-fiends is a matter of some contention, though the former
interpretation seems to be generally favored. (Mostly from _The Concise
Encyclopedia of Islam_ by Cyril Glasse, 1989. Elaboration by popular
demand.)
BAALI
A word probably derived from the name of an ancient Semitic deity (or
deities) "Baal" ("lord", cf. the Norse "Frey") who was later regarded as a
demon due to bad press in the Bible.
BRUJAH
This is most probably derived from a Spanish word "bruja" meaning
witch. Many have speculated that its choice and spelling may have
been influenced by "brouhaha", originally a French word.
CAERN
Presumably a "respelled" version of "cairn", signifying a conical heap
of stones. Derived from Gaelic.
CAITIFF
From an old French word for "captive." A lowly or cowardly person.
CAMARILLA
Spanish in origin. "A small room." The term referred to the chamber of
advisors to the Spanish monarchs and consequently has come to indicate
a secret cabal or clique of powerful behind-the-scenes string-pullers.
CHANGELING
In British folklore, a fairy which takes the place of a stolen human
infant. Traditionally, the term has absolutely nothing at all to do with
shape-changing, deriving its use from "change" in the sense of exchanging
or switching something.
CHILDER
An archaic English plural of "child." Equivalent to "children."
CRINOS
Probably coined from the Latin "crinis" meaning "hair". Or I suppose
it could be from the Greek "krinon", or "lily." :) The authors of
W:tA had a habit of taking Latin roots and warping them in peculiar
ways to coin words, as we'll see in later entries.
GALLIARD
An obsolete English adjective meaning "valiant" or "lively". Also
an old French dance.
GANGREL
An obscure English word from Scottish or northern British dialect meaning
a "wanderer" or something to that effect.
GAROU
From the French "loup-garou", meaning "werewolf." "Loup" means
"wolf" (from the Latin "lupus", meaning the same), and "garou"
descends from the Frankish "wariwulf" ("werewolf", in case it's not
obvious) though a long sequence of typically French sound changes.
GIOVANNI
Italian personal name. Equivalent to "John." Many hold that its use as
a surname is rather goofy.
GLABRO
Probably from a Latin root ("glaber") meaning "bald". Compare
"glabrous."
HISPO
Probably from the Latin "hispidus" meaning "bristly"?
HOMID
A White Wolf coinage, presumably from the Latin "homo","man".
Probably after "hominid", a member of the taxonomic family
Hominidae.
INCONNU
A French word meaning "unknown". The masculine form. In English, it
also refers to several species of "large oily freshwater fish."
KINE
An archaic English plural of "cow". Equivalent to "cows" or
"cattle".
LASOMBRA
Undoubtedly from the Spanish "la sombra", literally "the shadow".
LUPUS
Latin. "Wolf".
MALKAVIAN
An oft quoted origin is from "mala cavilla", Latin for "bad mockery".
Unfortunately, it may be right.
METIS
An originally French term meaning "half-breed" or "racially mixed".
Widely used in Canada to denote persons of mixed racial background, it is
generally considered to be offensive when applied to human beings. People
familiar with regions where the term is common frequently recommend
anglicizing the pronunciation to "MET-is" in order to avoid any
unpleasantness.
NOSFERATU
A very tricky etymology. The word was popularized by its use in Bram
Stoker's _Dracula_ (1899), hence the title of Frank Murnau's silent
film _Nosferatu_. Many post-Stokerian sources give meanings such as
"plague-bearer","not breathing", "not dead", and "an old Romanian
word for Devil." There seems to be a general sense that it may be a
Romanian word, as suggested by the "-u" ending, although some also
give a "nosferat" as either an alternate form or a form inflected for
different grammatical number. These sources differ on whether
"nosferat" is plural and "nosferatu" singular or vice-versa, but I am
inclined to discount this entirely since it is completely
inconsistent with Romanian grammar. Indeed, I am inclined to
discount most of the above etymologies due to their clear
inconsistency regarding one another and the fact that both the
"plague-bearer" and "not breathing" glosses can perhaps be seen to
derive from rather doubtful attempts to find Latin morphemes within
"Nosferatu". My guesses as to the logic behind a few of these
attempts:
nos-feratu <- "nos" (?) + Latin "*feratu" (from "fero", 'bear' or
'carry')
no-sferatu <- Latin "non" (not) + Latin "spiratus" ('having
breathed')
I have consulted a number of Romanian dictionaries and encyclopedias
with no success in finding "nosferatu". I have asked several native
Romanians whether the word was familiar to them and none have
recognized it. This would imply that the word, if it really is
Romanian at all, is an archaic or little-known dialect expression or
perhaps both. It is also conspicuously absent from many books on
Romanian folklore which have been compiled from actual field studies,
and I have never found a reference which actually recounts any
interview with a real live Romanian in which "nosferatu" is used.
Considering the extraordinary number of Romanian terms for vampires
and related creatures that have been enumerated in such studies, this
is odd indeed.
Fortunately, Leonard Wolf, in his _Annotated_Dracula_ (1975), identifies
Stoker's source for the word (which Wolf glosses as Romanian - "not dead",
pg. 193) as _The_Land_Beyond_the_Forest_ by Emily Gerard (1888). From an
excerpt in Wolf, this book appears to be a travel sketch in the classic
Victorian manner dealing with Transylvania. Unfortunately, I have never
found a copy, so this is as far as I have gotten along these lines. The
above evidence however inclines me to doubt the accuracy of Gerard's
observation.
At one point it was suggested by Carpathian native Triszna Leszczyc on
alt.vampyres that "nosferat" may be a corruption or foreign
misapprehension of a term "necurat" which is used as a euphemism when
referring to the Devil or assorted other evil beings. I haven't looked
into it deeply, but there could be something to this. I find it highly
possible that it may have influenced the accounts of the "nosferat"/
"nosferatu" dichotomy, even if it is not the ultimate source of
"nosferatu."
OBOLUS
Plural: OBOLI
Obolos/obol. A type of ancient Greek coin worth 1/6 of a drachm. It
was revived among the Franks and periodically appeared in European
coinages until fairly recently. Greek oboli were small silver coins
without much detail, compared to the often ornate staters and
drachms. The obolus was traditionally the coin placed in the mouths
of the dead (the naulon) in Greek funerary custom.
Some Greek obolus denominations (for the REAL Wraith player):
drachmon 1 drachm = 6 oboli
pentobolon 5 oboli
tetrobolon 4 oboli
triobolon 3 oboli
diobolon 2 oboli
trihemiobolion 3/2 obolus
obolon 1 obolus
tritemorion 3/4 obolus
hemiobolion 1/2 obolus
trihemitetartemorion 3/8 obolus
tetartemorion 1/4 obolus
hemitetartemorion 1/8 obolus (also called a "chalkos")
(Denominations from G.F. Hill, _Ancient_Greek_and_Roman_Coins_,
Argonaut, Chaicago, 1964.)
PHILODOX
"Philodox" is derived from a composition of two common Greek morphemes,
"philo-" and "doxa". The first signifies "fondness" or "love", with a
generally non-erotic connotation. "Doxa" is somewhat more complex, as it
derives from a root with a base meaning of "showing" with a strong sense
of the visual aspect. In other Indo-European languages, this has taken on
a sense of demonstration, e.g. the Latin "doceo" (teach) and English
"teach." In Greek, it acquired a connotation of seeming, much as other
I-E languages have given "showing" or "seeing" verbs this sense,
particularly in the passive voice. This sense of seeming gave it a use
similar to our word "opinion", which was very appropriate to Plato's use
of the term to indicate his notion of opinion, the false seeming of a
Platonic form, a mere shadow of truth. Thus several compounds arose from
"doxa", for example, (in the English) "orthodox" and "heterodox." The
Greeks also gave "doxa" a sense more along the lines of fame or glory,
which also clearly falls out of the sense of showing. It is this sense
that we usually find in the Greek "philodox" compounds, which indicate a
love of fame or glory.
However, the word has come into English primarily through Plato's use of
it in the fifth book of the Republic. Plato was talking about the
difference between those who value knowledge of the superficial seeming of
something, "doxa" (often rendered as "opinion" or "belief" in English
translation), rather than true knowledge, "sophia". Seekers of "sophia"
were "philoSOPHers" (meaning lovers of wisdom or knowledge) therefore, he
says, we may rightly call those who seek only "doxa" "philoDOXers". Plato
has thus reanalyzed this compound and given it a new use. An interesting
clue in the Republic is that he says something to the extent that those
who adhere to "doxa" cannot object to being characterized as
"philodoxical" because of this analysis. To me, this shows that he
recognizes the pejorative nature of the word's usual meaning, which was
somewhat like the English "glory-hound."
To add a third meaning, the word in English is taken often (perhaps
somewhat incorrectly) as little more than a pejorative term in the sense
of, to quote the OED, "an argumentative or dogmatic person", much as
"sophist", "cynic", "stoic", and "Epicurean" are used today in loose
senses which are really not what they originally signified.
POOKA
/
"The Pooka, recte Puca, seems essentially an animal spirit. Some derive
his name from poc [Gaelic], a she-goat; and speculative persons consider
him the forefather of Shakespeare's 'Puck.'"
W.B.Yeats _Irish_Folk_and_Fairy_Tales_
QUINTESSENCE
A term from Western philosophy. The mysterious fifth element, after
fire, water, earth, and air.
RAGABASH
One of dozens of obsolete British colloquial terms roughly synonymous with
"vagabond","ne'er-do-well","ragamuffin","shiftless layabout","lazy-ass
bum","gangrel", et cetera. A thesaurologism to be sure.
RAVNOS
A number of people have identified this with a Romani word for "heaven",
though I haven't been able to confirm that in a printed source. Another
possibility is a connection with the widely (by both a 1980 Punjabi source
and a 1930's Soviet lexicographer) reported "ruvno," a Romani adjective
meaning something like "wolflike" or "lupine." (from "ruv", "wolf").
REDCAP
A type of what Yeats called "solitary fairies". In British folklore,
this is the usual English version of the Gaelic "fear dearg" ("red man"),
known as a violent and sometimes malevolent trickster.
SABBAT
A somewhat archaic English word originally synonymous with "sabbath" and
cognate to it. (Such pairs of words are called "doublets".) Since there
seems to be some interest in this, I should mention that this form tends
to be closely associated (in French as well as English, as pointed out by
an astute reader) with the "black" or "witches' sabbat/h", which, in
European folklore and heavy-metal bands, is a perversion of the Christian
sabbath observance supposedly practiced by various
witch/warlock/sorceror/satanist/baby-eating-devil-worshipper-type people.
SALUBRI
Apparently from the Latin "saluber" meaning "healthy" or "healthful."
SAMEDI
Another French word, "Samedi" ([sahm-dee], roughly) means "Saturday". The
use here almost certainly comes from the name of the Voodoo loa "Baron
Samedi", a fairly typical chthonic figure, who is often represented
wearing a spiffy top hat.
SIDHE
/
An Irish word, sidhe means "fairy" as in "the little people", "the good
people", elves, sprites, and so on. Historically, the word has had two
alternate forms, seen in the Old Irish "sid" and "sith". "Sidhe" is
apparently the modern derivative of the first form, but the standard
dialects of both modern Scottish and Irish Gaelic have preferred the
"sith" form. A number of etymologies have been proposed for the Old Irish
"sid" or "sith", though none have really emerged as clearly superior. The
word is identical in form to a word which means "peace", though it is
unknown whether these are two separate words that just happen to have the
same form (compare English "mean" as in average and "mean" as in
bad-tempered) or are related. In the modern Gaelic languages, sidhe/sith
cognates occur mostly in compounds like the Irish bean-sith and
daoine-sith, "woman fairy" and "fairy people". Due to the possible
connection to sith-"peace", daoine-sith is sometimes translated as "people
of peace", though this interpretation is clearly disputable. Folk
etymology in Gaelic speaking communities has also led to considerable
confusion of the two roots, whether they were originally related or not.
The pronunciation, despite the typically strange Irish spelling, is
essentially the same as the English "she".
TELLURIAN
A little-used English word meaning "earthly" or "terrestrial."
THEURGE
A conventional coinage from Greek morphemes. "One who works
(manipulates) gods."
TOREADOR
Spanish. A type of bull-fighter.
TREMERE
A Latin verb meaning "to tremble". The earlier speculation that it might
be Italian was in error since "tremare" is the modern Italian form.
TZIMISCE
This may be either a rather strange spelling of a Yiddish word referring
perhaps to a type of "carrot stew" or it may refer to the Byzantine
Emperor John I Tzimisces.
The "carrot stew" version is reportedly from Mark Rein*Hagen himself, as
communicated to me by Alyssa Gulledge. If accurate, I suspect it's
related to the Yiddish/German "zermischen" which means something like "to
mix up thoroughly" ("zer-" often indicates some destructiveness or
violence in the action.) I've seen "tsemishe" (basically "zermische" using
an English phonetic spelling) and related forms in a Yiddish reference
with the base meaning of "mix up", and the extension to stew seems
logical. The specification to carrots is possibly a narrowly distributed
dialect feature or possibly even an idiolect feature related to the loss
of the use of "zermischen" in a wider context, not an unusual occurrence
among descendants of immigrants as the language of their forebears fades
from everyday use. The pronunciation of "tsemishe" is much closer to
stated pronunciations of "tzimisce" than the pronunciation that I would
expect from the spelling of "tzimisce", leading me to wonder how this
spelling came about and what its relationship to the epithet of a
Byzantine emperor might be.
The Emperor's nickname is incidentally the anglicized spelling of the
Byzantine Greek spelling of an Armenian nickname, which, according to
a medieval Byzantine source, means "shorty" in Armenian. (Tzimisces
and his family were of Armenian extraction.)
VENTRUE
This is a simple one. "Ventru" is a French adjective meaning "pot-
bellied." "Ventrue" is just the feminine form of the adjective. I would
suggest that this was chosen due to the image of the Ventrue as well-to-do
aristocrats.
The contention that the word comes from the French "vent" (wind) seems
like whiskers under Occam's razor, but the suggestion that it is a
near-anagram of "Ruthven" (except for the pesky 'h' and an extra 'e') is
at least inventive :). ("Lord Ruthven" was the name of the title
character in Dr. Polidori's 1819 novel _the_Vampyre_, a Gothic work
considered the prototype of the vampire genre and probably a
thinly-diguised hatchet job of the vampirically smarmy poet Lord Byron.)
Ben B.
buc...@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~buckner/wod.html
Anders Sandberg
On 29 Apr 1996, verkuilen john v wrote:
> As most of you have undoubtedly noticed, WW "borrowed" lots of names.
> I keep running across original references to borrowed things in various books.
Aren't there a FAQ about this?
> Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
Tremere means "to tremble" in Latin. Why the House/Clan choose that name
is uncertain, since the imperative form Treme ("Tremble!") is much more
grammatical and impressive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
nv91...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
Caine
ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) wrote:
>As most of you have undoubtedly noticed, WW "borrowed" lots of names.
>I keep running across original references to borrowed things in various books.
>
>
>Gangrel (archaic English for feral--JRRT calls Gollum "gangrel" frequently)
>Golconda (Indian city where diamonds were traded)
>Diablerie (diabolism)
>Setites (well, Set :)
>
>Non-obvious one:
>
>
>
>
As far as I know WW never made any secret of that borrowings. I remember
seeing somewhere explanation that Brujah come from Spanish and means
witch. So what's the news?
BTW, Camarilla also comes from Spanish and means Clique.
Caine
--------------------------------------------
- You are not a god.
- Why don't you pull a trigger to find out?
Young Guns II
Caine: b958...@wlv.ac.uk
--------------------------------------------
Adam Lee
Perhaps this is to refer to the Tremere belief that it is all a
ruse to steal your soul?
Adam
p.s. It's true.
Richard J Badger
In article <4m3b08$r...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
>Toreador (Spanish for bullfighter)
>Gangrel (archaic English for feral--JRRT calls Gollum "gangrel" frequently)
>Nosferatu (the movie, and maybe something else)
>Brujah (Spanish for witch)
>Golconda (Indian city where diamonds were traded)
>Diablerie (diabolism)
>Setites (well, Set :)
>know what else it might mean)
>Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
Tremere...not sure, may be a family name
Ventrue...I believe I read something comparing the name to pigs.
Lasombra...Can be broken down to two words in Spanish "La Sombra" or
"The Shadow" Hmmm...I wonder why they used this word? :)
Camarilla...spanish for "Little Room" or something
Sabbat...obviously the Sabbath, the Lasombra probably came up with their
organizations title.
Methusaleh...Biblical name of a person
Nod...I think is the Land of Sleep/Dreams
Gehenna...Biblical, a hellish time/place
>--
>J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
- Richard Badger
*****************************************************************************
Richard James Badger rjba...@hopper.unh.edu
PhoenixCon - Bringing Seacoast Gaming back From the Ashes
July 13-14 Durham, NH
Contact good...@wrench.mv.com for more information
*****************************************************************************
EGL
> Anyone know the source (if any) of Tremere, Ventrue, Lasombra, etc.?
I believe "la sombra" is "the sleeping," or some such....
-Eric
EGL
In article <4m2b72$e...@newsrvr.fandm.edu>
DA_...@acad.fandm.edu (Doug Kern) writes:
> Obeah: This originally ment a type of religon that is praacticed in the
> West Indies, that involved witchcraft. I am a little currious as to why
> it was used as a term for healing, since it originally had negative
> cognotations. ^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^
So do the Salubri. It's interesting that the healer vampires are
regarded as a bunch of fanatical diablerists. (This is most likely a
rumor spread by the Tremere, of course.)
-Eric
christopher j taylor
In article <4m8d7h$i...@mozz.unh.edu>,
Richard J Badger <rjba...@hopper.unh.edu> wrote:
>In article <4m3b08$r...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
(others deleted)
>>Gangrel (archaic English for feral--JRRT calls Gollum "gangrel" frequently)
Quick note, it's also modern English for "vagrant" according to at least
one dictionary. Given their wanderlust, this actually fits.....
Jake
Clan Gangrel
Brian Connors
I did an Altavista search to find some of the back articles on this
thread, and I have a few ideas to throw out. This is what I'm working from
on my Roman Clans project.
-Lasombra is Spanish for "the shadow". As I see it, it is actually meant
to be an idiom for these beings that was attached to them by someone else
and not their actual name. In Roman times, I have them called simply the
Shadowed Ones.
-I was not aware of the origins of Tzimisce. I've cast it as simply an
ancient Slavic form (Tsimishchi) that was translated into Latin as
Simistis and into Greek as something vaguely resembling the modern form
aka the name of the Byzantine ruler that was mentioned. The additional
Armenian connection is stretching it, but I can write it in pretty easily.
Carrot stew, on the other hand...
-Brujah? Beats me. I don't remember where the Spanish "bruja" came from. I
have it cast as an ancient Semitic name (Brushah) that, based on Spanish
phonology development, gives rise to the modern form of both words via the
intermediate form *bruxa.
-Nosferatu: avoid the issue completely. It dates back much further than
anyone can pin down. Nictuku is the same.
-Gangrel: I think I've got it backwards. Perhaps the term Gangrilli that
I'm using could be the origin of the Scots word :-)
-Tremere: My guess is it's a nickname that someone pinned on the founder
of the House. It doesn't necessarily have to mean anything deep; it just
so happened that once upon a time there was a mage whose friends all
called him Shaky.
-Ravnos: The FAQ that someone posted gives a useful etymology. Now can
someone pin me down a Sanskrit original? I'm really uncomfortable with the
latinized 'Rafanuti' and "original" 'Ravennu' that I'm giving them.
-Ventrue--Straight through French from a Latin Ventruta. Maybe it's an old
Gaulish metaphor?
-Cappadocians: There was a Cappadocia. It could be that there was a
Cappadocius as well :-) Seriously, no good explanation for this one. I
think MRH and Jen Hartshorn dropped the ball on this one.
-Toreador--This may be the most believable one. I have the Toreador as
essentially the driving force behind Greek civilization, from Crete to
classical Athens. They cycle through Poseur and Artiste phases (they're
headed towards Poseur at the moment; they were in high Artiste mode during
V:DA); the name (can someone give me a useful Greek translation?) dates
back to their Poseur phase of Minoan/Mykenaian Greek civilization and the
fact that the Minoans had bullfighters then. Thus the name carries to
modern times, barely changed.
On the whole I'm not comfortable with the names I've chosen. Toreador is
the only one I trust; it has the least holes. Brujah is next, but it is
rather dependent on the origin of the word. If it's not an Old World name
at all, we have serious problems. Tzimisce/Simistis is cutting it close on
the timeline, but it's believable. Ravnos is a case where I simply don't
know any Sanskrit (Romany is an Indo-Aryan language, AFAIK) at all and
can't come up with anything believable.
The next trick: track down the names Malkav and Arikel (or Malcafis and
Aricella, as I've put it in what I've written). I have once again avoided
the issue by implying that Arikel and Malkav (twins, according to some, as
net.folklore maintains about Baal and Saluot as well) were of a race that
no longer has a language recognizable as the same one they spoke before
writing developed.
In general, I've made an effort to come up with names that manage to
resemble the modern versions as far as possible, yet fit in linguistically
with antiquity. I seem to have failed miserably, but hey. If you're going
to do something like I'm doing, you have to make the effort if you don't
want people complaining that there is absolutely no reason for someone to
have the clan name Lasombra.
/Coach
verkuilen john v
conn...@cleo.bc.edu (Brian Connors) writes:
[snip]
>-Nosferatu: avoid the issue completely. It dates back much further than
>anyone can pin down. Nictuku is the same.
Good move. There are, of course, lots of languages that we know little or
nothing about. For instance, we only speculate about Sumerian. According
to the WW background, the Mesopotamian area was important, and we know
little or nothing about the languages of the area 5000 years ago. Also
there is the matter of linguistic corruption. Words which are only used
by vampires might be intermediate forms or corrupted forms that stuck
around long ago but that mortals have changed. One would expect this, of
course, given the unlifespan of vampires and their tendency to stasis.
[snip]
>-Cappadocians: There was a Cappadocia. It could be that there was a
>Cappadocius as well :-) Seriously, no good explanation for this one. I
>think MRH and Jen Hartshorn dropped the ball on this one.
Cappadocia is in Asia Minor. Cappadocius I have no idea about. In any
event I hate the clan and don't use them. They are a Malkavian bloodline.
>-Toreador--This may be the most believable one. I have the Toreador as
>essentially the driving force behind Greek civilization, from Crete to
>classical Athens. They cycle through Poseur and Artiste phases (they're
>headed towards Poseur at the moment; they were in high Artiste mode during
>V:DA); the name (can someone give me a useful Greek translation?) dates
>back to their Poseur phase of Minoan/Mykenaian Greek civilization and the
>fact that the Minoans had bullfighters then. Thus the name carries to
>modern times, barely changed.
I've always disliked the name Toreador but your rationalization is
as good as I've ever seen.
>The next trick: track down the names Malkav and Arikel (or Malcafis and
>Aricella, as I've put it in what I've written). I have once again avoided
>the issue by implying that Arikel and Malkav (twins, according to some, as
>net.folklore maintains about Baal and Saluot as well) were of a race that
>no longer has a language recognizable as the same one they spoke before
>writing developed.
Who is Arikel? In any event, you can certainly use the excuse from above.
All sorts of words get best-guessed when put into English and these could
simply be very old words that have been messed up in translation.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
<offensive comment omitted>
Anders Sandberg
>>-Cappadocians: There was a Cappadocia. It could be that there was a
>>Cappadocius as well :-) Seriously, no good explanation for this one. I
>>think MRH and Jen Hartshorn dropped the ball on this one.
>
>Cappadocia is in Asia Minor. Cappadocius I have no idea about. In any
>event I hate the clan and don't use them. They are a Malkavian bloodline.
I have read about that there are a ruined city in the area, filled with
subterranean tunnels and buildings. Makes you wonder...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
nv91...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
--
verkuilen john v
nv91...@red58.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) writes:
>>>-Cappadocians: There was a Cappadocia. It could be that there was a
>>>Cappadocius as well :-) Seriously, no good explanation for this one. I
>>>think MRH and Jen Hartshorn dropped the ball on this one.
>>
>>Cappadocia is in Asia Minor. Cappadocius I have no idea about. In any
>>event I hate the clan and don't use them. They are a Malkavian bloodline.
>I have read about that there are a ruined city in the area, filled with
>subterranean tunnels and buildings. Makes you wonder...
It does make you wonder. The whole region of Asia Minor (anachronistically
referred to as Turkey in the V:DA book occasionally) has been settled for
a long time, and there's bound to be all sorts of ruins around, most of which
are pretty hum-drum, but you could always stretch the truth a bit. Many
of the old cities had pretty extensive networks of catacombs. Jerusalem
is veritably riddled with half-filled tunnels. With Nosferatu around in the
WoD, who's to say these are just the tunnels they let us see?
DShomshak
In <4m2b72$e...@newsrvr.fandm.edu> DA_...@acad.fandm.edu (Doug Kern)
writes:
>
>Okay here's one:
>
>Obeah: This originally ment a type of religon that is praacticed in the
>West Indies, that involved witchcraft. I am a little currious as to why
>it was used as a term for healing, since it originally had negative
>cognotations.
Even more strangely, the word "Obeah" is much younger than the Discipline
(hey, Saulot was diablerized centuries before Europeans and Africans
reached the new World). The West Indies word, though, derives from West
African words like the Ashanti "bayi," which means "sorcery." It turns up
in "obayifo," vampiric witches who harm people and crops and travel in the
form of a will-o'-the-wisp. So why did Saulot, or anyone else, choose a
West African name for a healing/soulsucking Discipline? Maybe Saulot was
from West Africa.
Dean Shomshak
DShomshak
In article <connorbd-070...@cfj3.bc.edu>, conn...@cleo.bc.edu
(Brian Connors) writes:
>-Nosferatu: avoid the issue completely. It dates back much further than
>anyone can pin down. Nictuku is the same.
>
"The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead" by J. Gordon Melton
claims that "Nosferatu" comes from the Greek nosophoros, "plague-carrier,"
by way of the Old Slavonic *nosofur-atu. He also says it's authentic
folk-Romanian, but rare. The Greek derivation makes a lot of sense,
because in folklore vampires are very often supposed to be the cause of
disease.
The Romans borrowed a lot of Greek words with very little change. They
might turn "Nosophoros" into something like "Nosoforius," with "Nosoforii"
as the plural. (At least, that's good enough if none of your players
actually know Latin!)
Dean Shomshak
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
DShomshak (dsho...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <connorbd-070...@cfj3.bc.edu>, conn...@cleo.bc.edu
: (Brian Connors) writes:
: >-Nosferatu: avoid the issue completely. It dates back much further than
: >anyone can pin down. Nictuku is the same.
: >
: "The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead" by J. Gordon Melton
: claims that "Nosferatu" comes from the Greek nosophoros, "plague-carrier,"
: by way of the Old Slavonic *nosofur-atu. He also says it's authentic
: folk-Romanian, but rare. The Greek derivation makes a lot of sense,
: because in folklore vampires are very often supposed to be the cause of
: disease.
Did he have any evidence or was he just playing the old "sounds like" game?
Ben Buckner
buc...@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~buckner/wod.html
MNaber7983
she is the antidulieven of the Torries
DShomshak
In article <4n7ptm$i...@news.asu.edu>, tar...@imap2.asu.edu writes:
>DShomshak (dsho...@aol.com) wrote:
>: "The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead" by J. Gordon Melton
>: claims that "Nosferatu" comes from the Greek nosophoros,
"plague-carrier,"
>: by way of the Old Slavonic *nosofur-atu. He also says it's authentic
>: folk-Romanian, but rare. The Greek derivation makes a lot of sense,
>: because in folklore vampires are very often supposed to be the cause of
>: disease.
>
>Did he have any evidence or was he just playing the old "sounds like"
game?
>
>Ben Buckner
>buc...@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
>http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~buckner/wod.html
There are no footnotes to this book, but the "Nosferatu" entry did include
a short bibliography. Maybe one of those references includes a formal
etymological study. Melton also mentioned Emily Gerard's claimed
etymology, mentioning that it's thoroughly refuted. The next time I get
to the library (late next week), I'll copy down Melton's bib. and e-mail
it to you, and you can investigate further (from your past posts on V:tM
etymologies, I can tell you're far more qualified than I to do this).
Dean Shomshak