Godless Gamers (Austin, TX)
unig...@io.com
the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
at unig...@io.com.
-Jeff Dee
--
"It is as morally bad not to care whether a thing is true
or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to
care how you got your money as long as you have got it."
-Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons", 1950
unig...@io.com * http://www.io.com/unigames/index.html
* * * Knight of the BAAWA since 10/26/99 * * *
user
> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> at unig...@io.com.
>
> -Jeff Dee
Hail Jeff!
What are your gaming interests?
Does atheism play an important role in this group?
-N
Chris Keil
> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> at unig...@io.com.
>
> -Jeff Dee
Do I have to renounce God to join the group? Kinda like when Ed Wood got
baptized to make a movie?
Doug Berry
stone tablets, which when translated read:
>What are your gaming interests?
I'm willing to bet In Nominae won't be one of the big draws... :)
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add
your distinctive setting and background to our own. |
Resistance is futile."
Duo Maxwell
<unig...@io.com> wrote in message news:385FD8...@io.com...
> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> at unig...@io.com.
>
> -Jeff Dee
>
All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
It sucks to live in Connecticut.
Sidhain
> > the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> > who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> > will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> > home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> > at unig...@io.com.
>
And who says atheism isn't a religion?
It's organized now, so it must be.
Otto
wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:54:54 -0800, us...@mail.com (user) found
>stone tablets, which when translated read:
>
>
>>What are your gaming interests?
>
>I'm willing to bet In Nominae won't be one of the big draws... :)
Naw. They'll all play devils and think they're being kewl and
avant-garde.
Commodore Otto
S. John Ross
| Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
| All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
| It sucks to live in Connecticut.
Speaking as a recent (a little over a year) resident in Austin, all I can
say is YES YES OH GOD YES.
Especially the Drafthouse :)
Austin is like heaven would be if heaven were abandoned by God and turned
over to commercial development. Which is to say, it's like heaven, but with
more bookstores and better restaurants. Which is to say, it's like heaven,
but better.
Albeit warmer. My idea of heaven, I confess, includes seven-foot
snowdrifts.
Hmm. This is probably the wrong thread to talk about heaven :)
And, for any austin gamers out there, don't forget the Austin Gamers
Mailing List at
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/agml.htm
|| S. John Ross
|| Husband · Cook · Writer
|| In That Order
|| http://www.io.com/~sjohn/blue.htm · sj...@io.com
Darwin
> <unig...@io.com> wrote in message news:385FD8...@io.com...
> > The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> > the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> > who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> > will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> > home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> > at unig...@io.com.
> >
> > -Jeff Dee
>
> Do I have to renounce God to join the group? Kinda like when Ed Wood got
> baptized to make a movie?
Does this mean I can't play a Cleric? ^o.O^
Darwin
Jim Cowling
>> > The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
>> > the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
>> > who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
>> > will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
>> > home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
>> > at unig...@io.com.
>
>It's organized now, so it must be.
Please, not this again. The local book club is organized, but they aren't a
religion, either.
-------
Jim Cowling, Unaligned Merchant of Menace/Writer/Atheist/Geek
The Plains of Amaterasu: more original Clan War stuff than you could ever use at
http://members.home.com/scowling -- scow...@home.com
-------
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
>The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
>the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
>who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
[snip]
What's the freaking point? Don't you think that both gamers
and atheists are sufficiently marginalized groups as is? Speaking
as someone who happens to be both (though I don't live anywhere
near Austin, TX) I seriously doubt whether I'd feel comfortable
joining a group like that. Are *all* of the other Austin gamers
religionists of the type that can't breathe without proselytizing,
or is it just you guys who are clones of Dr*c?
Oh well, I'm outta here in a few hours and probably won't be back
until after the Y2K dust settles. Happy Mammonsmass, everyone....
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y || www.pvv.org/~leifmk || Math geek and gamer
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Such is life upon the isle of torment and woe.
One day good, one day bad. And some days even hope." (MDB)
SD Anderson
>>>What are your gaming interests?
>> I'm willing to bet In Nominae won't be one of the big draws...
>> :)
> Naw. They'll all play devils and think they're being kewl and
> avant-garde.
You appear to have a rather inexperienced view of atheist
gamers Commodore.
SD Anderson
> And who says atheism isn't a religion?
> It's organized now, so it must be.
Hmm a game group formed with the intent of bringing people who
share a philosophical outlook as well as gaming constitutes a
religion?
Kewl. Hey Jeff! You just got a great TAX write off!
John Beaderstadt
> And who says atheism isn't a religion?
>
> It's organized now, so it must be.
Maybe that makes it a political party?
--
"I tried to imagine the easiest way God could have done it."
--Albert Einstein
Thomas Pichler
: Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
: All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
: It sucks to live in Connecticut.
Connecticut? What's so bad about that... you haven't been bored until
you've tried being a gamer in Austria, what with our hot two stores in the
city of Vienna neither of which can relyably get Ral Partha figs (I
suppose you'll agree I don't even need to talk about less mainstream
stuff)... heck, the most civilized place (gaming wise) in Austria is
probably the German border (which you have to cross to get to Essen or
even further north, like the UK)
*sigh* well at least I do find the time to paint what miniatures I do get.
Thomas
kas...@acadia.net
> "Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >And who says atheism isn't a religion?
> >It's organized now, so it must be.
> Please, not this again. The local book club is organized, but they aren't a
> religion, either.
As to "not this again," was it Sidhain who started a thread called
"Godless Gamers" in this newsgroup? Or was it you? When somebody comes
in and declares, We are a group of atheists who play games, that person
obviously is drawing attention to his belief-system.
As to "the local book club is organized too," membership in the local
book club is not a matter of belief or Weltanschauung, and members of
the local book club do not often go out of their way to construct
self-descriptive .sig lines like this: Tim Dowling, Unaligned Merchant
of Menace/Writer/Local Book Club Member/Geek.
Declaring oneself an atheist clearly involves a degree of strongly held
belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or other divine beings),
and it clearly forms a crucial part of the self-image of *this* poster,
at least. Therefore it seems fair to draw an analogy with someone who
calls himself, say, a Taoist.
Taoism, you know, is non-theistic; that is, it doesn't entail belief in
a god or other supernatural entities. Yet it is considered to be a
religion. I would say that atheism, at the very least, seems
suspiciously LIKE a religion in a number of important ways.
--
Ich brauche nicht immer meiner eigenen Meinung zu sein.
I need not always be of my own opinion.
-- Heinrich Heine
Trevor Hyde
> Declaring oneself an atheist clearly involves a degree of strongly held
> belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or other divine beings),
Actually, at minimum, it only involves a belief that something does
NOT exist (a god or divine beings). This is not the same as a belief
in something (which many athiests have as well; but that is not what
defines them as atheists). Many people do not believe in Santa Claus,
but even an organization of them would not qualify as a religion
(aclausics).
Usually when someone says they are an atheist they do not mean that
they have a belief system similar to other atheists. They are merely
saying that they do not have a belief system similar to theists. This
is very different from the case where a person declares themselves
to be of religion X, meaning that their belief system is similar to
others of that religion.
Many atheists are religious; in that they have a belief system that
would qualify as a religion (this is a slippery slope, but I think
you will understand in a minute). Others do not. However, atheism
is not the religion, it is a label used to refer to any and all
religious and nonreligious people who do not believe in divine
beings. Sort of a wastebasket label, like monotheist (belief in
one god; again, this is a classification, not a religion) or
polytheist (belief in many gods).
If someone claims that atheism is a religion, and that they are
practicing it, they are using the term incorrectly. They do not
represent other atheists, and likely do not have a belief system
similar to them. They have misinterpreted a superficial similarity
(lack of belief in something) with a true similarity of belief.
Trevor
Chris Camfield
religious flamewar that could be brewing here.
Chris
Huw Morris
>
> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> at unig...@io.com.
Er...what does anybody's religion have to do with gaming? Are things that
fucked up over there?
Huw
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
>
>As to "the local book club is organized too," membership in the local
>book club is not a matter of belief or Weltanschauung, and members of
>the local book club do not often go out of their way to construct
>self-descriptive .sig lines like this: Tim Dowling, Unaligned Merchant
>of Menace/Writer/Local Book Club Member/Geek.
No? Well, I've seen some, but not many, so I guess you're right there.
Some people insist that they hate nitpicking just before they launch
into some heavy nitpicking. Not I; I am honest enough to state that
I quite like nitpicking, and it's probably the main reason why I still hang
around on Uselessnet. Hence I enter nitpick mode. No particular offense
intended to anyone, but if anyone does feel offended, I don't really give
a shit.
>Declaring oneself an atheist clearly involves a degree of strongly held
>belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or other divine beings),
>and it clearly forms a crucial part of the self-image of *this* poster,
>at least. Therefore it seems fair to draw an analogy with someone who
>calls himself, say, a Taoist.
Unfortunate wording there -- what's "a degree of strongly held belief"?
"Yes, I have strongly held beliefs about many important matters, but only
to a small degree" sounds sort of silly.
Still nitpicking, I'd say that declaring oneself an atheist strictly means
to claim that one does not *have* any gods, not that one believes that
there aren't any. I'm one myself (an atheist, that is; not a god), but
I don't claim to believe that there are no gods around; I don't *think*
there are any, but I do know that *if* there are, they sure aren't mine
(and most of them I wouldn't want to keep even if they followed me home).
>Taoism, you know, is non-theistic; that is, it doesn't entail belief in
>a god or other supernatural entities. Yet it is considered to be a
>religion. I would say that atheism, at the very least, seems
>suspiciously LIKE a religion in a number of important ways.
Some of those groups of organized atheism do sure sound a lot like
religious cults, yes. But knowing that person A is an atheist does
not say very much about his or her belief system as such; the possible
range is probably at least as large as within any of the major religion
families (larger, I'd guess, but then how do you measure such things?)
Calling atheism *a* belief system is about as absurd as lumping Judaism,
Christianity and Islam (and their various offshoots) together and calling
*that* a belief system, or *a* religion. When I pick my nits, I insist
on labeling atheism as a metareligious attribute of some belief systems.
These groups are a fairly interesting social phenomenon, though. It
seems that humans do tend to form various special-interest groups, but
some cultures manifest this tendency differently from others. From my
observations of mainstream US culture, it seems that religion has a much
greater social importance to most people there than it has in my corner
of Europe -- over there it's very common (as in, something that many
ordinary people do without it being considered remarkable by their neighbors
and coworkers and so on) to attend church on a weekly basis and spend
a considerable amount of free time in church-related activities. It
stands to reason that atheists living in such a society might feel the
need to clump together with others of like mind, since that is what
"normal" people do and humans are basically social creatures. Around here
it's quite different; sure enough there are visible religious
subcultures but the people belonging to such are the exception rather than
the rule; most folks are members of the state church, but most of those
don't feel strongly about it (about half don't even believe in its deity)
and are extremely passive "members by default". Religiously delimited
activities are not considered "normal", so those who are not religious
do not feel the need to form their own alternatives to such activities
or groups, but just go with the mainstream of society (which is pretty
much areligious, "non-theistic" if you will, anyway).
Anthony Christopher
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y <lei...@pvv.ntnu.no> wrote:
>In article <385FD8...@io.com>, <unig...@io.com> wrote:
>>The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
>>the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
>>who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
>
>
>What's the freaking point? Don't you think that both gamers
>and atheists are sufficiently marginalized groups as is? Speaking
>as someone who happens to be both (though I don't live anywhere
>near Austin, TX) I seriously doubt whether I'd feel comfortable
>joining a group like that. Are *all* of the other Austin gamers
>religionists of the type that can't breathe without proselytizing,
>or is it just you guys who are clones of Dr*c?
>
>Oh well, I'm outta here in a few hours and probably won't be back
>until after the Y2K dust settles. Happy Mammonsmass, everyone....
I wouldn't want to join any gaming group that proselytizes anything, and
this one just sounds like another one that would. <sigh>
--
Mark Christopher -- Shore.Net Technical Editor -- http://www.shore.net/
"Information causes change, and if it doesn't, it's not information.
You're sitting in a seat: that's not information. The person next to
you has a communicable disease: now that's information." -James Burke
Bruno Wolff III
>
> It sucks to live in Connecticut.
Why don't you consider doing something about this. One person can make a big
difference in gaming. If you really want to build a gaming group and are
willing to put time into organizing things, you can almost certainly get
a group going.
Dr Nuncheon
S. John Ross <sj...@io.com> wrote:
>Austin is like heaven would be if heaven were abandoned by God and turned
>over to commercial development. Which is to say, it's like heaven, but with
>more bookstores and better restaurants. Which is to say, it's like heaven,
>but better.
Are you claiming that Heaven *doesn't* have dusty old used bookstores
whose shelves wind back into the building, organized semi-randomly, with
books hidden behind other books or in cardboard boxes, with all those
great books you read once or heard of but aren't popular enough to be
carried in a Big Chain Bookstore?
And I couldn't walk down the street and check a book out of Lucine's
library which has all the great works that never got written on the
earthly plane? I'll never get to read the full text of _Lord Demon_ as
Roger Zelazny was going to write it? Or all the Master Li and Number Ten
Ox books that Hughart isn't going to write because no publisher is smart
enough to throw gobs of money at him and an advertising campaign?
I won't be able to go out for a steak?
If that's how it really is, then I'm not goin'. (plunks self down and
prepares to just be immortal instead out of sheer stubbornness) If I
can't read and I can't eat, it's probably Hell anyway.
J
--
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
Paul M. M. Jacobus
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 unig...@io.com wrote:
> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of the Atheist
> Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists who enjoy boardgames,
> cardgames, and role-playing games) will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec.
> 22, 1999), at the home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email
> me at unig...@io.com.
>
> -Jeff Dee
Because gamers don't get enough bad press as is.
JD
Michael. Schneider ,
Weee! Troll high-dive board is now OPEN!
In article <3860BB...@acadia.net>, kas...@acadia.net wrote:
> Jim Cowling wrote:
> > "Sidhain" <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >And who says atheism isn't a religion?
> > >It's organized now, so it must be.
>
> > Please, not this again. The local book club is organized, but they aren't a
> > religion, either.
>
> As to "not this again," was it Sidhain who started a thread called
> "Godless Gamers" in this newsgroup? Or was it you? When somebody comes
> in and declares, We are a group of atheists who play games, that person
> obviously is drawing attention to his belief-system.
>
> As to "the local book club is organized too," membership in the local
> book club is not a matter of belief or Weltanschauung, and members of
> the local book club do not often go out of their way to construct
> self-descriptive .sig lines like this: Tim Dowling, Unaligned Merchant
> of Menace/Writer/Local Book Club Member/Geek.
>
> Declaring oneself an atheist clearly involves a degree of strongly held
> belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or other divine beings),
> and it clearly forms a crucial part of the self-image of *this* poster,
> at least. Therefore it seems fair to draw an analogy with someone who
> calls himself, say, a Taoist.
>
> Taoism, you know, is non-theistic; that is, it doesn't entail belief in
> a god or other supernatural entities. Yet it is considered to be a
> religion.
By whom, and why does their opinion matter?
> I would say that atheism, at the very least, seems
> suspiciously LIKE a religion in a number of important ways.
And these suspicions are?
Mike Schneider, VRWC Sentinel Outpost. "Autoguns, on-line!" +--+--+--+
Reply to mike1@@@winternet.com sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
"My favorite president is Washington, because he's been dead the longest."
-- Rob Robertson
FAILURE OF THE PUBLIC TRUST: http://www.swlink.com/~hoboh/
Michael. Schneider ,
Best games club ever was at St. Cloud St. U. in St. Cloud, Minnesota.
Met twice a week (wed. evening and all day Sat.) in a big, ambiant room in
the student center, which also housed several fast-food places and a movie
theater (whose suggestion box we regularly stuffed). Gaming in
Minneapolis, with 20 times the population, is worse.
Michael. Schneider ,
> From article <s6088l...@corp.supernews.com>, by "Duo Maxwell"
<bloo...@99main.com>:
> >
> > It sucks to live in Connecticut.
>
> Why don't you consider doing something about this. One person can make a big
> difference in gaming. If you really want to build a gaming group and are
> willing to put time into organizing things, you can almost certainly get
> a group going.
Best games club ever was at St. Cloud St. U. in St. Cloud, Minnesota.
Met twice a week (wed. evening and all day Sat.) in a big, ambiant room in
the student center, which also housed several fast-food places and a movie
theater (whose suggestion box we regularly stuffed). Gaming in
Minneapolis, with eighty times the population, is worse.
Jerry Taylor
discovered through the course of events that they all happen to be atheists.
Thus, the cheeky name of the group. Sounds pretty harmless to me.
I can imagine, however, the fun of having a theist attend such a meeting.
Imagine playing Cataan as a "7" is rolled, activating the robber. SO
WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW!?! I boom as I plop that bad-boy on next to the theist
"wheat" city and force him to discard four valuable cards. The potential
fun here is endless ....
--Jerry Taylor
Huw Morris <huw.m...@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3860E6CD...@rl.ac.uk...
> unig...@io.com wrote:
> >
> > The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> > the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> > who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> > will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> > home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> > at unig...@io.com.
>
mjfg...@my-deja.com
John Beaderstadt <be...@together.net> wrote:
> Sidhain wrote:
>
> > And who says atheism isn't a religion?
> >
> > It's organized now, so it must be.
>
No, sie said ORGANIZED.
Wierd idea of the day: Atheist monks. Vows of silence. Ritual spitting
on religious symbols every couple of hours. Illustrated manuscripts of
_The Origin of Species_....'
-m
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Geenius at Wrok
> As to "the local book club is organized too," membership in the local
> book club is not a matter of belief or Weltanschauung,
It is if it's Oprah's Book Club. Which certainly has a religious aspect
of its own, or at any rate a fanatical one.
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Keith Ammann is gee...@albany.net "I notice you have a cloud of doom.
Live with honor, endure with grace I must admit it makes you seem
www.albany.net/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy."
Otto
wrote:
>It sounds to me like they're a bunch of gamers who like to get together who
>discovered through the course of events that they all happen to be atheists.
>Thus, the cheeky name of the group. Sounds pretty harmless to me.
...except that by proclaiming themselves to be "the ATHEIST gaming
society", they imply that they have a particular attitude toward
things that a bunch of people who just happen to be atheists might
_not_ have. It implies that they're a bit more outspoken (or
obnixious, depending on your stand on the issue.)
>Imagine playing Cataan as a "7" is rolled, activating the robber. SO
>WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW!?! I boom as I plop that bad-boy on next to the theist
>"wheat" city and force him to discard four valuable cards. The potential
>fun here is endless ....
Gee, wouldn't _that_ be fun. (Actually, it might be. Then I could
have some backing for all my claims that "it's _not_ luck."
Commodore Otto
SD Anderson
otto...@the.couch (Otto) wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:35:58 -0500, "Jerry Taylor" <jta...@cato.org>
> wrote:
>
> >It sounds to me like they're a bunch of gamers who like to get
together who
> >discovered through the course of events that they all happen to be
atheists.
> >Thus, the cheeky name of the group. Sounds pretty harmless to me.
>
> ...except that by proclaiming themselves to be "the ATHEIST gaming
> society", they imply that they have a particular attitude toward
> things that a bunch of people who just happen to be atheists might
> _not_ have. It implies that they're a bit more outspoken (or
> obnixious, depending on your stand on the issue.)
??? What exactly would that be that is implied there? The only
connection implied in 'The Atheist Gaming Group' is atheists who happen
to game. And I'd suspect they would be spending most their time gaming
rather than dealing with issues atheistic in any event.
>
> >Imagine playing Cataan as a "7" is rolled, activating the robber. SO
> >WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW!?! I boom as I plop that bad-boy on next to the
theist
> >"wheat" city and force him to discard four valuable cards. The
potential
> >fun here is endless ....
>
> Gee, wouldn't _that_ be fun. (Actually, it might be. Then I could
> have some backing for all my claims that "it's _not_ luck."
>
> Commodore Otto
>
Otto
wrote:
>In article <3860BB...@acadia.net>, <kas...@acadia.net> wrote:
>Still nitpicking, I'd say that declaring oneself an atheist strictly means
>to claim that one does not *have* any gods, not that one believes that
>there aren't any.
Well, now we're getting into semantical nitpicking; I always consider
"atheist" to mean "someone who believes that the universe's creation
was not brought about by the direct action of some entity."
> I'm one myself (an atheist, that is; not a god),
Then...DDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEDEEEEEE!!!!!!!! (fzaak fzaak)
>Some of those groups of organized atheism do sure sound a lot like
>religious cults, yes. But knowing that person A is an atheist does
>not say very much about his or her belief system as such; the possible
>range is probably at least as large as within any of the major religion
Holy shit! Someone on USEnet who isn't stupid! Well, I guess that
makes _one_ of us...
Personally, whether someone is atheist or religious isn't really much
of an issue for me. I get annoyed when someone starts trying to
preach to me about the virtues of one stand over another, though.
Like Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no harm for my neighbor to say
there are twenty gods, or no god at all; it neither picks my pocket
nor breaks my leg."
Commodore Otto
Dennis Ugolini
> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 kas...@acadia.net wrote:
>
> > As to "the local book club is organized too," membership in the local
> > book club is not a matter of belief or Weltanschauung,
>
> It is if it's Oprah's Book Club. Which certainly has a religious aspect
> of its own, or at any rate a fanatical one.
Now Keith...remember your spirit!
Dennis Ugolini
ugol...@ligo.caltech.edu
unig...@io.com
>
> <unig...@io.com> wrote in message news:385FD8...@io.com...
> > The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> > the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> > who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
> > will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
> > home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
> > at unig...@io.com.
> >
>
> Do I have to renounce God to join the group?
We're forming this gaming group for atheist gamers
in Austin. If you're not an atheist *now*, then I
guess you'd have to decide to become one if you
wanted to to join our group. Seems like wanting to
join a particular gaming group would be a pretty
silly reason to change your belief system, though!
Better wait until you want to become an atheist
for a *sensible* reason - like, y'know, if you
decide that you don't believe in any gods.
And yes, you'd have to move to Austin to join our
group, too. Sorry about all this unfair
discrimination! ;-)
BTW: the date given is wrong. It should be
Wednesday the 22nd, of course, not Tuesday.
My bad!
> Kinda like when Ed Wood got
> baptized to make a movie?
He did it to get funding. Hmm. Funding. Baptism.
Fundamentalists. I'm sure there's a great joke
in there somewhere, but I can't quite make it
work...
-Jeff Dee
--
"It is as morally bad not to care whether a thing is true
or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to
care how you got your money as long as you have got it."
-Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons", 1950
unig...@io.com * http://www.io.com/unigames/index.html
* * * Knight of the BAAWA since 10/26/99 * * *
unig...@io.com
>
> grid...@mindspring.com (Doug Berry) wrote:
Me? I play RPGs, boardgames, CCGs... pretty
much anything except large scale miniatures
battles, but only because I lack the
discipline to paint huge armies of figures.
> >I'm willing to bet In Nominae won't be one of the big draws... :)
Funny you should mention that; I've just
finished a series of illustrations for the
next In Nominae book from S J Games. But
is it the sort of thing I'd be interested
in playing? No, not really.
> Naw. They'll all play devils and think they're being kewl and
> avant-garde.
I think you're imagining somewhat younger
atheists there, Otto ;-)
unig...@io.com
>
> <unig...@io.com> wrote:
> >The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
> >the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
> >who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
>
> [snip]
>
> What's the freaking point? Don't you think that both gamers
> and atheists are sufficiently marginalized groups as is? Speaking
> as someone who happens to be both (though I don't live anywhere
> near Austin, TX) I seriously doubt whether I'd feel comfortable
> joining a group like that. Are *all* of the other Austin gamers
> religionists of the type that can't breathe without proselytizing,
> or is it just you guys who are clones of Dr*c?
No, that's not it. What's going on is that the
ACA would benefit from having a few other
activities for its members to do together than
just its weekly breakfast meeting together at
the local bagel shop. When I noticed that quite
a few ACA members were also gamers, I suggested
that we start a gaming group. That's really all
there is to it.
Jonathan Brock
restaurants.
Jon
Dr Nuncheon <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:83qqob$i9u$1...@hiram.io.com...
smithdoerr
><unig...@io.com> wrote in message news:385FD8...@io.com...
>> The first meeting of the Godless Gamers (an offshoot of
>> the Atheist Community of Austin, for Austin-area atheists
>> who enjoy boardgames, cardgames, and role-playing games)
>> will be tomorrow night (Tuesday Dec. 22, 1999), at the
>> home of Vic Farrow. For info & directions either email me
>> at unig...@io.com.
>>
>> -Jeff Dee
>>
>Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
>All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
>It sucks to live in Connecticut.
Well at least you're not far from Boston...
- smithdoerr
Frank J. Perricone
wrote:
> I wouldn't want to join any gaming group that proselytizes anything, and
> this one just sounds like another one that would. <sigh>
I think you guys are being too harsh. Nothing in the announcement
suggested they'd be proselytizing -- more like, there was this group with
one interest, and they found many of them had a common second interest, so
formed a subgroup. If it had been "Theatre Folks Who Game" no one would
have blinked, nor assumed they'd be using their game sessions to try to
force other people to see Shakespeare.
--
* Frank J. Perricone * hawt...@sover.net * http://www.sover.net/~hawthorn
Prism: http://www.sover.net/~hawthorn/Prism/
Just because we aren't all the same doesn't mean we have nothing in common
Just because we have something in common doesn't mean we're all the same
Jim Cowling
>belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or other divine beings),
No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I have
no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of belief.
-------
Jim Cowling, Unaligned Merchant of Menace/Writer/Atheist/Geek
The Plains of Amaterasu: more original Clan War stuff than you could ever use at
http://members.home.com/scowling -- scow...@home.com
-------
william faust
>
> And who says atheism isn't a religion?
>
>
> It's organized now, so it must be.
>
Matthew Gray
>
> Correct.
No, not at all.
Agnosticism is the positive assertion that there can be no proof of
the existence of god(s) and there can be no proof that god(s) does not
exist.
Atheism is the positive assertion that there is no God or gods.
...Matthew
Duo Maxwell
> >No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I
have
> >no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
> >
> >My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of belief.
>
Didn't we have this same damn discussion 2 months ago or so?
Duo Maxwell
Otto <otto...@the.couch> wrote in message > Gee, wouldn't _that_ be fun.
(Actually, it might be. Then I could
> have some backing for all my claims that "it's _not_ luck."
>
> Commodore Otto
I blame my bad Clan War luck on my Blair Witch Tshirt.
That, and the game design is all fucked up, one or the other.
Duo Maxwell
> >Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
> >All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
> >It sucks to live in Connecticut.
>
> Well at least you're not far from Boston...
Umm... anything over a 45 minute drive is too far for me.
Boston is like 2 hours or so.
Duo Maxwell
>
> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Frank J. Perricone wrote:
>
> > If it had been "Theatre Folks Who Game" no one would have blinked, nor
> > assumed they'd be using their game sessions to try to force other people
> > to see Shakespeare.
>
If I lived down there I would probably check them out.
If they got all anti religion and crap, I would leave.
The same thing I would do when religious people get all insane about their
beliefs.
Duo Maxwell
> >: Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
> >: All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
> >: It sucks to live in Connecticut.
> >
> >you've tried being a gamer in Austria, what with our hot two stores in
the
> >city of Vienna neither of which can relyably get Ral Partha figs (I
> >suppose you'll agree I don't even need to talk about less mainstream
> >stuff)... heck, the most civilized place (gaming wise) in Austria is
> >probably the German border (which you have to cross to get to Essen or
> >even further north, like the UK)
> >*sigh* well at least I do find the time to paint what miniatures I do
get.
> >
> >Thomas
> I found 4 games shops in Vienna and I was only there 5 nights.
>
> You are just not trying.
The only thing to do in my area of the state is gamble. I am a casino
dealer.
I hate gambling.
Hence, I am bored out of my mind.
Terry Austin
>If someone claims that atheism is a religion, and that they are
>practicing it, they are using the term incorrectly. They do not
>represent other atheists, and likely do not have a belief system
>similar to them. They have misinterpreted a superficial similarity
>(lack of belief in something) with a true similarity of belief.
>
Actually, there is a formally organized Atheist group, and they do qualify
as a religion. I've found the Supreme Court ruling for it.
--
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> http://www.hyperbooks.com
"Terry's an artist and a master chemist; he can set fire to water."
--Sea Wasp, rec.arts.sf.written
Terry Austin
>scow...@home.com (Jim Cowling) saw fit to share the following wisdom:
>
>>No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I have
>>no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
>>
>>My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of belief.
>
>Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
atheist \a-the-ist\ n : one who denies the existence of God atheism
\-i-zem\ n atheistic \a-the-is-tik\ adj
agnostic \ag-nas-tik\ adj [Gk agnostos unknown, unknowable, fr. a- un- +
gnostos known] : of or relating to the belief that the existence of any
ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable agnostic n
agnosticism \-nas-te-si-zem\ n
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by
Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
They aren't mutually exclusive.
Terry Austin
>Sidhain wrote:
>> And who says atheism isn't a religion?
>
>> It's organized now, so it must be.
>
>
> Hmm a game group formed with the intent of bringing people who
>share a philosophical outlook as well as gaming constitutes a
>religion?
>
> Kewl. Hey Jeff! You just got a great TAX write off!
It could be done. But they have to have a place they hold regular meetings,
and people outside his family have to attend.
Deykin ap Gwion
>
> > >Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
> >
>
> No, not at all.
>
> Agnosticism is the positive assertion that there can be no proof of
> the existence of god(s) and there can be no proof that god(s) does not
> exist.
>
> Atheism is the positive assertion that there is no God or gods.
That would be the strong atheist position. Which of course,
differs from the Weak Atheist position. Both of which are
different from Empirical Agnosticism and Strict Agnosticism
as coined by Huxley.
May I refer all of the people in this discussion to a web
site which might cover this ground better than a Usenet
discussion? Oh, I can? Thanks:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/overview.html
And, umm, what does this have to do with role playing or
miniature gaming again?
Deykin
Chris Keil
news:H2j84.1052$N4.1...@news1.gvcl1.bc.home.com...
> In article <386198...@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
<b.e...@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> wrote:
> >
> >But there isn't much point in speaking strictly: you won't be
> >understood. People now seem to take 'agnostic' to mean 'a person who is
> >not prepared to make a definite statement as to whether gods exist or
> >not, perhaps because he or she is unsure', and 'atheist' to mean 'a
> >person who is prepared to make a definite statement that he or she
> >believes that no gods exist'.
>
> Most people are, then, wrong. Just as most people are wrong when they say
> that the 21st century begins in a couple of weeks.
>
> Argument from popularity does not mean that we should communicate only to
the
> lowest common denominator.
Actually, they'd be arguing from the according to OED definition, but what
would a bunch of scholars know...
Paul M. M. Jacobus
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Frank J. Perricone wrote:
> If it had been "Theatre Folks Who Game" no one would have blinked, nor
> assumed they'd be using their game sessions to try to force other people
> to see Shakespeare.
Oh, I'm sure they'd be picked on equally. I know I would.
JD
EYE of NiGHT
NEil Phillips
>No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I have
>no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
>
>My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of belief.
Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
--
NEil (phil...@webzone.net.au)
Support the use of real names on the Internet.
The opinions expressed in this message are not my own,
but rather are those of Microsoft Corporation.
Allan Seyberth
>
>Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
Correct.
-------------------
Allan Seyberth
dar...@darious.com
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Robert Heinlein:
Because with the freedom the chicken was given, it was the chicken's responsibility to do so.
Jim Cowling
>scow...@home.com (Jim Cowling) saw fit to share the following wisdom:
>
>>No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I have
>>no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
>>
>
>Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
Strictly speaking, agnosticism is the lack of belief in magical knowledge.
Otto
<10225...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>In article <386212b6...@news.erols.com>,
> otto...@the.couch (Otto) wrote:
>> ...except that by proclaiming themselves to be "the ATHEIST gaming
>> society", they imply that they have a particular attitude toward
>> things that a bunch of people who just happen to be atheists might
>> _not_ have. It implies that they're a bit more outspoken (or
>> obnixious, depending on your stand on the issue.)
>
> ??? What exactly would that be that is implied there? The only
>connection implied in 'The Atheist Gaming Group' is atheists who happen
>to game. And I'd suspect they would be spending most their time gaming
>rather than dealing with issues atheistic in any event.
But if Atheism isn't a big issue to them, then why are they putting it
in the name of their group?
Commodore Otto
Otto
>No, that's not it. What's going on is that the
>ACA would benefit from having a few other
>activities for its members to do together than
>just its weekly breakfast meeting together at
>the local bagel shop.
Good idea! You may be letting yourself in for a bit of trouble with
that choice of a name, though. People who might otherwise be
interested in joining might turn away if they feel you're trying to
"draw the line HERE!" or something 'DEADLY serious' like that.
Commodore Otto
Otto
<WFa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> And who says atheism isn't a religion?
>>
>>
>> It's organized now, so it must be.
>>
>IMO the calling-card of organized religions is that they pass the plate.
AFAIK, no religion other than Christianity (and those derived from it)
have the "Communion" rite.
Commodore Otto
Allan Seyberth
>> >Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
>>
>
>No, not at all.
>
>Agnosticism is the positive assertion that there can be no proof of
>the existence of god(s) and there can be no proof that god(s) does not
>exist.
>
>Atheism is the positive assertion that there is no God or gods.
Now prove it.
:-)
Without proof, you are left with belief.
Jim Cowling
>>>My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of belief.
>>
>
>Correct.
False. Please check the alt.atheism FAQ.
Brett Evill
So?
I can't claim to have much in the way of personal familiarity with
routine religious services (I have only ever been to weddings and
funerals and once a christening in a church), but I gathered from jokes
and songs and so forth that 'passing the plate' was collecting money
from the congregation, while communion was a ceremony in which the
congregation filed to the from to eat bread and possibly drink wine. I
thought it was possible to pass the plate without celebrating communion.
Shows how little I know.
Brett Evill
Brett Evill
>
> In article <386189e6...@news.ade.connect.com.au>, phil...@webzone.net.au (NEil Phillips) wrote:
> >scow...@home.com (Jim Cowling) saw fit to share the following wisdom:
> >
> >>No, it doesn't. Being an atheist means not having a belief in gods. I have
> >>no belief in gods just as bald is not a hair colour.
> >>
> >
> >Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
>
> knowledge.
That's right. Gnosis is divinely revealed knowledge, and an agnostic is
strictly speaking a person who denies that there is any gnosis. Under
that definition, an agnostic may believe that there is a God (whose
existence is apparent in the design of the universe, perhaps, or whose
existence can be established by pure reason), or believe that there is
no God (which would explain why there was no gnosis), or be uncommitted
to belief either in the existence or in the non-existence of God.
Likewise, and atheist is strictly a person who doesn't have a god. He or
she may believe that there are no gods, or may believe in gods but
decline to have one.
But there isn't much point in speaking strictly: you won't be
understood. People now seem to take 'agnostic' to mean 'a person who is
not prepared to make a definite statement as to whether gods exist or
not, perhaps because he or she is unsure', and 'atheist' to mean 'a
person who is prepared to make a definite statement that he or she
believes that no gods exist'.
Regards,
Brett Evill
Paul M. M. Jacobus
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Duo Maxwell wrote:
> Didn't we have this same damn discussion 2 months ago or so?
Unfortunately. And it didn't belong on any of these newsgroups then
neither.
Take it elsewhere folks, please.
JD
Jim Cowling
>
>understood. People now seem to take 'agnostic' to mean 'a person who is
>not prepared to make a definite statement as to whether gods exist or
>not, perhaps because he or she is unsure', and 'atheist' to mean 'a
>person who is prepared to make a definite statement that he or she
>believes that no gods exist'.
Most people are, then, wrong. Just as most people are wrong when they say
that the 21st century begins in a couple of weeks.
Argument from popularity does not mean that we should communicate only to the
lowest common denominator.
-------
Jim Cowling
>Trevor Hyde <Trevo...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>
>>If someone claims that atheism is a religion, and that they are
>>practicing it, they are using the term incorrectly. They do not
>>represent other atheists, and likely do not have a belief system
>>similar to them. They have misinterpreted a superficial similarity
>>(lack of belief in something) with a true similarity of belief.
>>
>Actually, there is a formally organized Atheist group, and they do qualify
>as a religion. I've found the Supreme Court ruling for it.
I don't think the US Supreme Court, or any other court, has allowed any
atheist organization to qualify as a religion (speaking of strictly atheist
groups, and not atheist religious groups, like Buddhists).
Jim Cowling
>Jim Cowling <scow...@home.com> wrote in message
>> that the 21st century begins in a couple of weeks.
>>
>> Argument from popularity does not mean that we should communicate only to
>the
>> lowest common denominator.
>
>would a bunch of scholars know...
Scholars use better sources than dictionaries, even the OED. Dictionaries are
notoriously poor for providing definitions in the cultural context of the
word. The Chinese, I'm sure, would disagree with the OED definition of
"Taiwan" not beginning "a Chinese province located primarily of the island of
Formosa". And they'd be right.
kas...@acadia.net
I don't know. I think this discussion is pretty interesting. And I
can't imagine any other newsgroup where such a conversation could be
held without degenerating into a religious flame war. A relatively
small newsgroup like rec.games.board becomes a hangout for a group of
regulars, and random conversational tangents occur naturally in places
like this.
People here are game-players, which implies that they are basically
friendly, that they enjoy thinking their way through interesting
puzzles, and that they are not averse to the occasional matching of
wits. I think that's what we're seeing here.
If you think of this thread as a kind of GAME, and not as an off-topic
argument, then I'd say it fits right in.
How would you score this round of "Godless"?
I'd say the Atheists are making a good showing, maintaining their
territory without making aggressive thrusts into neighboring domains.
The Definition Fundamentalists have made a surprisingly strong thrust
for the high ground, replaying a strategy that has served them well in
"Millennium". The Vox Populi team is getting battered, as usual. The
Brits are playing quietly thus far, scratching their heads and asking in
ritual fashion, Are things THAT bad over there? The Christians appear
to have all been eaten by the Lions.
--
Ich brauche nicht immer meiner eigenen Meinung zu sein.
I need not always be of my own opinion.
-- Heinrich Heine
kas...@acadia.net
> It could be worse......Hell could be French bookstores and English
> restaurants.
Here's something I saw posted on a refrigerator:
In Heaven, all the chefs are French, all mechanics are German, all
police are English, all lovers are Italian, and the whole place is run
by the Swiss.
In Hell, all the chefs are English, all mechanics are French, all
police are German, all lovers are Swiss, and the whole place is run by
the Italians.
David Damerell
>"Millennium". The Vox Populi team is getting battered, as usual. The
>Brits are playing quietly thus far, scratching their heads and asking in
>ritual fashion, Are things THAT bad over there?
After six years of Usenet it hardly seems worth asking. Things clearly
_are_ that bad over there...
--
David/Kirsty Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
CUWoCS President. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/ Hail Eris!
|___| "Life is short and love is always over in the morning." |___|
| | | Temple of Love - The Sisters of Mercy. | | |
Trevor Hyde
> Actually, there is a formally organized Atheist group, and they do qualify
> as a religion. I've found the Supreme Court ruling for it.
They are AN athiest group, not members of THE athiest religion. Just
as Christianity is A monotheistic religion, not THE monotheistic
religion. Anyway, law and common sense frequently diverge.
Trevor
Anthony Christopher
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:35:58 -0500, "Jerry Taylor" <jta...@cato.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >It sounds to me like they're a bunch of gamers who like to get
>together who
>> >discovered through the course of events that they all happen to be
>atheists.
>> >Thus, the cheeky name of the group. Sounds pretty harmless to me.
>>
>> ...except that by proclaiming themselves to be "the ATHEIST gaming
>> society", they imply that they have a particular attitude toward
>> things that a bunch of people who just happen to be atheists might
>> _not_ have. It implies that they're a bit more outspoken (or
>> obnixious, depending on your stand on the issue.)
>
> ??? What exactly would that be that is implied there? The only
>connection implied in 'The Atheist Gaming Group' is atheists who happen
>to game. And I'd suspect they would be spending most their time gaming
>rather than dealing with issues atheistic in any event.
I know to me, anyway, belief in or lack of belief in a god (or whatever)
is a rather personal thing. The idea that there's a game group announcing
itself as "an atheist gaming group" says to me that they *are* more
outspoken about it. I suspect others might have the same perception.
--
Mark Christopher -- Shore.Net Technical Editor -- http://www.shore.net/
"Information causes change, and if it doesn't, it's not information.
You're sitting in a seat: that's not information. The person next to
you has a communicable disease: now that's information." -James Burke
Anthony Christopher
Frank J. Perricone <hawt...@sover.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:53:24 GMT, mar...@shore.net (Anthony Christopher)
>wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't want to join any gaming group that proselytizes anything, and
>> this one just sounds like another one that would. <sigh>
>
>I think you guys are being too harsh. Nothing in the announcement
>suggested they'd be proselytizing -- more like, there was this group with
>one interest, and they found many of them had a common second interest, so
>formed a subgroup. If it had been "Theatre Folks Who Game" no one would
>have blinked, nor assumed they'd be using their game sessions to try to
>force other people to see Shakespeare.
You're probably right; perhaps I am reading too much into it and being too
harsh, but I would have a similar feeling towards "Theatre Folks Who Game"
as well; it would be a gaming group made up of a particular group of
people, one of which I am not. That's not in itself bad; indeed, it
could be a very enlightening experience. It's just that anything religious
(and I'm just throwing "atheist" into that because of how it pertains to
many religions) would be a turn-off to me if it seemed related to a
gaming group, as there seems no reason to me to make that sort of
distinction. Same thing as if it was "<insert political party> Who Game".
This, of course, is MHO (as it should go without saying).
Jay Miller
> territory without making aggressive thrusts into neighboring domains.
> The Definition Fundamentalists have made a surprisingly strong thrust
> for the high ground, replaying a strategy that has served them well in
> Brits are playing quietly thus far, scratching their heads and asking in
> to have all been eaten by the Lions.
It's not that we've been eaten by the lions, the Christians that is. It's
just that everyone that doesn't believe in God and has not accepted Jesus
Christ as their Lord and Savior is in the same boat. From my perspective
you are either Christian or non-Christian. Whether you are a Jew, Atheist,
Agnostic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. doesn't really matter. Therefore, there is
no real point in heating things up any more than they are since I don't feel
it would help accomplish my goal of leading others to Jesus.
If you would like to know more about what I believe and why, please feel
free to contact me by email, not on this group.
Jay
Paul M. M. Jacobus
On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 kas...@acadia.net wrote:
> I don't know. I think this discussion is pretty interesting. And I
> can't imagine any other newsgroup where such a conversation could be
> held without degenerating into a religious flame war. A relatively
> small newsgroup like rec.games.board becomes a hangout for a group of
> regulars, and random conversational tangents occur naturally in places
> like this.
No.
Usenet is made with different hierarchies and groups for different topics.
A topic belongs in the most specific group, and no where else. Just
because you find it interesting doesn't mean it belongs here. I find it
annoying and distracting, because I came here to discuss miniatures games.
Please take the discussion to more appropriate groups, which you may then
read if you desire.
> If you think of this thread as a kind of GAME, and not as an off-topic
> argument, then I'd say it fits right in.
Nice try.
JD
Michael Dingler
Well, if anarchist parties exist, why not an
atheistic religion?
...Michael...
(must... resist... pun... on... military intelligence)
Sock Monkey
<vam...@access1.digex.net> wrote:
>> Didn't we have this same damn discussion 2 months ago or so?
>
>Unfortunately. And it didn't belong on any of these newsgroups then
>neither.
>
>Take it elsewhere folks, please.
Your going to have to settle for a 30 day kill filter as the off-topic
crowd seems to be in a perpetually delusional state that anybody gives
a rat's ass about their opinions (aka activated ignorance) here. Even
funnier is the fact they just write at each other instead of too each
other, leading to the inevitable flaming.
James Wallis
>Jonathan wrote:
>> It could be worse......Hell could be French bookstores and English
>> restaurants.
>
> Here's something I saw posted on a refrigerator:
>
> In Heaven, all the chefs are French, all mechanics are German, all
>police are English, all lovers are Italian, and the whole place is run
>by the Swiss.
>
> In Hell, all the chefs are English, all mechanics are French, all
>police are German, all lovers are Swiss, and the whole place is run by
>the Italians.
Interesting to note the lack of Americans in either place.
--
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address (ja...@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Check out our gamely funksome website www.hogshead.demon.co.uk
"So what did happen to Crazynet, James?" www.erstwhile.demon.co.uk
Avram Grumer
scow...@home.com (Jim Cowling) wrote:
> Strictly speaking, agnosticism is the lack of belief in magical knowledge.
What do you mean by "strictly speaking"? Are you claiming that the strict
meaning of "agnostic" is that which can be determined by examining the
root words and modifiers from which it was assembled (working that way,
"strictly speaking" December is the tenth month of the year), or are you
saying that "lack of belief in magical knowledge" is what Thomas Henry
Huxley meant when he coined the word in 1869?
In one of his letters, Huxley says that the "gnosis" he had in mind (the
type that is lacking in an agnostic) was the belief that one had
successfully determined the ultimate origins of existence, not necessarily
by magical means.
There's a good essay about this at
<http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bill_schultz/o-hair.html>.
--
Avram Grumer | Any sufficiently advanced
Home: av...@bigfoot.com | technology is indistinguishable
http://www.PigsAndFishes.org | from an error message.
unig...@io.com
>
> On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:20:26 GMT, SD Anderson
> <10225...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <386212b6...@news.erols.com>,
> > otto...@the.couch (Otto) wrote:
>
> >> ...except that by proclaiming themselves to be "the ATHEIST gaming
> >> society", they imply that they have a particular attitude toward
> >> things that a bunch of people who just happen to be atheists might
> >> _not_ have. It implies that they're a bit more outspoken (or
> >> obnixious, depending on your stand on the issue.)
> >
> > ??? What exactly would that be that is implied there? The only
> >connection implied in 'The Atheist Gaming Group' is atheists who happen
> >to game. And I'd suspect they would be spending most their time gaming
> >rather than dealing with issues atheistic in any event.
>
> in the name of their group?
Because it's descriptive of *us*. We're a group of gamers
who don't happen to believe in any gods, just like the
Chicago Bears are a group of football players who happen
to be based in Chicago. We didn't form our group to make
a statement about atheism any more than they formed their
team to make a statement about Chicago. Relax!
-Jeff Dee
--
"It is as morally bad not to care whether a thing is true
or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to
care how you got your money as long as you have got it."
-Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons", 1950
unig...@io.com * http://www.io.com/unigames/index.html
* * * Knight of the BAAWA since 10/26/99 * * *
smithdoerr
>> >>
>> >Sigh. How come all the cool stuff takes place in Austin?
>> >All of those cool Drafthouse movies, Origin Systems, game groups.
>> >It sucks to live in Connecticut.
>>
>> Well at least you're not far from Boston...
>Umm... anything over a 45 minute drive is too far for me.
>Boston is like 2 hours or so.
Sorry, I'm from the west coast where everything is a bit more spread
out and a 2 hour drive isn't considered very far :)
- smithdoerr
Robert Chang
smith...@NOSPAMpipeline.com (smithdoerr) wrote:
What West Coast are you talking about? Things are pretty clumped here in
the SF Bay Area.
-bob
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= b...@soda.berkeley.edu = It is now pitch black. You are likely to =
= go...@uclink.berkeley.edu = be eaten by a grue. --Zork =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MCV Fenderson
: In article <386220...@acadia.net>, kas...@acadia.net writes
:>Jonathan wrote:
:>> It could be worse......Hell could be French bookstores and English
:>> restaurants.
:>
:> Here's something I saw posted on a refrigerator:
:>
:> In Heaven, all the chefs are French, all mechanics are German, all
:>police are English, all lovers are Italian, and the whole place is run
:>by the Swiss.
:>
:> In Hell, all the chefs are English, all mechanics are French, all
:>police are German, all lovers are Swiss, and the whole place is run by
:>the Italians.
: Interesting to note the lack of Americans in either place.
They should at least be present in hell.
;-)
mcv. <><
Allan Seyberth
>In article <83s168$1u$1...@hume.nmia.com>, dar...@darious.comdiespammer (Allan
> Seyberth) wrote:
>>>
>>>Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
>>
>
>False. Please check the alt.atheism FAQ.
As a practising agnostic. . . I think I'll pass on the usenet definition of my
lack of beliefs.
SD Anderson
> kas...@acadia.net wrote:
>> Declaring oneself an atheist clearly involves a degree of
>> strongly held belief in SOMETHING (i.e., that there's no god or
>> other divine beings),
> Actually, at minimum, it only involves a belief that something
> does NOT exist (a god or divine beings). This is not the same as
> a belief in something (which many athiests have as well; but
> that is not what defines them as atheists). Many people do not
> believe in Santa Claus, but even an organization of them would
> not qualify as a religion (aclausics).
To be technical, an *absence* of belief in God(s) is all that
is needed to qualify for the broadest definition of the term
atheist (a = lack of) (theist = believer in God(s)). There are
other definitions of the word, a couple apparently written by
theists that REALLY annoy atheists for being inaccurate and
misleading.
SD Anderson
> As to "not this again," was it Sidhain who started a thread
> called "Godless Gamers" in this newsgroup? Or was it you? When
> somebody comes in and declares, We are a group of atheists who
> play games, that person obviously is drawing attention to his
> belief-system.
So? There is nothing particularly illegal, immoral or
fattening about being an atheist gamer. I'll admit I have doubts
about excluding other gamers of theistic viewpoints from the club,
if for no other reason that few game clubs can afford the luxury
of turning down regular members, but if he can get a group
together under this banner, I say more power to him.
SD Anderson
> Actually, there is a formally organized Atheist group, and they
> do qualify as a religion. I've found the Supreme Court ruling
> for it.
And naturally you can't be bothered to cite this organization
or the particulars of that ruling as such actions would likely
slow the pace and fury of this thread's growth, and deny you the
pleasure you accumulate in a flame fest.
SD Anderson
>> My atheism is not a strongly held belief. It is a lack of
>> belief.
> Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
Nope. Well Agnosticism would be included among the
philosophical stances that fit the quote above but not
EXCLUSIVELY, which is a key point.
Example: "I have been presented with no compelling reason to
date to act or even consider seriously the possibility that God(s)
exist." is a definite atheistic stance, while "I have no evidence
either way that God(s) exist." is an agnostic stance.
Neither has any element of a strong belief.
SD Anderson
>> Wouldn't that be Agnostism?
> Correct.
And incorrect as well. Agnosticism is covered by the statement
upthread as are a number of atheistic views. If the intent is to
show the view is *exclusively* agnostic, which I believe it was,
"incorrect" is the proper answer.
SD Anderson
> Personally, whether someone is atheist or religious isn't really
> much of an issue for me. I get annoyed when someone starts
> trying to preach to me about the virtues of one stand over
> another, though. Like Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no harm
> for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god at all;
> it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
If it neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg why are you
annoyed when someone preaches? It's relatively easy to not read
any given thread on Usenet. The main drawback to these threads is
that there are a few small colleges etc that have very limited
server space for usenet groups and flamewars like the one brewing
here tend to drive out 'legitimate' posts from those limited
servers in short order, sometimes in less than a day.
We really ought to form rec.games.frp.religious-debate.
SD Anderson
> Agnosticism is the positive assertion that there can be no proof
> of the existence of god(s) and there can be no proof that god(s)
> does not exist.
> Atheism is the positive assertion that there is no God or gods.
Except both view points have passive modes ie "there is at
present no proof one way or the other" for agnostics and "There is
no compelling reason to presume a God exists" for atheists.
SD Anderson
> Didn't we have this same damn discussion 2 months ago or so?
And two months before that and two months before that...
We really need to form rec.games.frp.religious-debate
SD Anderson
> And, umm, what does this have to do with role playing or
> miniature gaming again?
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING at this point. However there are a small
band of people here who pay no heed to that fact at all and who
will ignore requests that they take it elsewhere at best. So the
choices are to sit back and let this go on for two months or so or
put your two cents in and maybe do the equivalent of rolling a 9
on 9d100 and make a point that ENDS the damn flamewar.
SD Anderson
>>> Didn't we have this same damn discussion 2 months ago or so?
>> then neither.
>> Take it elsewhere folks, please.
> I don't know. I think this discussion is pretty interesting.
> And I can't imagine any other newsgroup where such a
> conversation could be held without degenerating into a religious
> flame war.
Well based on PAST threads of this sort, you're going to see
that degeneration pretty damn soon.
I'm starting to sound like that Roman polician who ended every
speach with "Carthage Must Be Destroyed!" but...
We really need to form rec.games.frp.religious-debates
SD Anderson
> definition, but what would a bunch of scholars know...
In many cases words get added to the dictionary due to how
they've come to be used. ie to ravel something is EXACTLY the
same as to UNRAVEL it, because the act of ravelling is too UNdo a
work and the UN more or less got attached to the RAVEL somewhere
in the process.
A few centuries ago it was rather *dangerous* to admit to being
an atheist. At this time, the pulpit got to say alll manner of
things about atheists that went unchallenged because atheists then
were allergic to being burned at the stake. These unchallenged
strawman definitions got into public use and thus are dutifully
recorded by your scholars.
SD Anderson
>> IMO the calling-card of organized religions is that they pass
>> the plate.
> AFAIK, no religion other than Christianity (and those derived
> from it) have the "Communion" rite.
What does passing along a box or plate to collect money have to
do with Communion?
SD Anderson
> spread out and a 2 hour drive isn't considered very far :)
Except in a few major metropolitan areas where things are much
closer together. In those places the drive is usually 3 hours!
;)
SD Anderson
> They should at least be present in hell.
We done gots our OWN heaven 'n hell yew furriners don't gets ta
goes there.