"Occult" incident in Alberta
Tim Klein
The following blurb appeared on p.A9 of the May 29 Montreal Gazette.
A longer article appeared on the front page of the May 28 Calgary Herald.
If anyone out there knows anything more about this incident, please post or
mail, and I'll forward the info to the Committee for the Advancement of
Role-Playing Games. Thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alberta parents warned not to dabble in occult
AIRDRIE, Alta.
Parents in this community just north of Calgary are being warned of the
dangers of dabbling in the occult after students participating in a Ouija game
required psychiatric treatment.
Two teenagers were taken to hospital with convulsions and hallucinations
after a group of 10 students used a Ouija board, a device or game that some
believe conveys advice from the spirit world.
"The Ouija board isn't the issue," said Pat McLaughlin, superintendent of the
Airdrie separate school division. "It could have been the game Dungeons and
Dragons or anything similar - they all involve trying to get into the Devil's
spirit."
Morgoth the Mad
Sounds liek a bunch of kids got into their dads liquor closet or took some
acid.. Devils Spirit? What is that?? Sounds liek a normal brain dead
administrator type who has been buggered to many time.. I bet he thinks
Buddhism is devil worship.. Quija board, occult? get real..
I do know how and why I got into D&D, cause I was a geek/nerd and outcast from
basic human society (I was later a pseudo hacker). Why was I outcast? cause I
did not fit the basic human mold of what society gives us.. Such is life, back to
DND, I needed something to do to take up the time during lunch when I was not
in the library reading, and I needed a safe place to get away from the normal
steroid mold jocks who felt that nerds/geeks love to be beat up or given a good
ego whiping (basically they needed to feel that they were worth something)?
Real people into the occult I would not want to meet (some are very dangerous,
but so is your average christian cult)..
Some "occult" groups are very nice people, but some are just plain dangerous..
I like the average Wicca..
Its liek the incident a few years ago when some kid killed himself, and it was
blamed on soem gamign buddy put a curse on his character.. Personnel I think
they kid had some emotional problem and would have cracked with or without
D&D..
Basically the parents are the last to realize thier kid is on the edge.
Oh Johnnys a good kid, then why did he kill all those people?
Sorry for my ravings. Im a well adjusted hyperactive person who is dealing with
the past and doing good.. I know longer game, mainly cause I out grew it.. It
was a part of my life that I needed and it gave me a social outlink and a way
to show my creativity and figure out who I am!
Role Playing can be a great thing, just soem take it to far!!
==
Michael Adams, ns...@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
Brian Cash
I can see myself hallucinating after a game. One of those fourteen-hour-
skittles-and-cherry-coke games.
Brian /-|-\
Marcos the Black
>
>Its liek the incident a few years ago when some kid killed himself, and it was
>blamed on soem gamign buddy put a curse on his character.. Personnel I think
>they kid had some emotional problem and would have cracked with or without
>D&D..
>Basically the parents are the last to realize thier kid is on the edge.
>Oh Johnnys a good kid, then why did he kill all those people?
>
suppovily killing himself from listening to heavy metal music which "leads
you to the BEAST". The point of the song is the fact that parents turn
thier heads away from the facts and think that they have a great family and
outside influence (ie. HV music) destroys their children. A few lines of
the song go loke this...
"Johnny can you hear me, open up that door... useless delinquent bum... oh,
my god it's Johnny, hanging by his neck. All those metal albums have lead
him to his death. Now it's time for parents to open their ears and listen,
maybe it's to late to see what you've been missing. Music is no cause of
death, it's you that suffocates..."
Personaly, when I first got into DnD as a kid, my mom threw away all my
books (which she gave to me for XMas) because her bible study group told her
they were satanic... didnt stop me from playing and I havnt killed
anyone...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marcos the Black ~ When a man lies, he murders some part of the world.
~ Chaos ~ These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives.~ Psychpathic Poet ~ All this I cannot bear to witness any longer.
~ Mark Olsen ~ Cannot the Realms of Chaos take me home...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{ mol...@oboe.calpoly.edu }-=# mol...@cash.calpoly.edu #=- < To live is to Die >
Boris Grasser
circle......*that's* odd! Very odd!
I can't believe that we still have such ignorants in this world!
Maybe next year the'll blame it on snooker if somebody get's sexually
pereverted! (Nuts...completely NUTS!)
Boris
The WolF
>Boris
Why does anyone see this as odd? I find it quite "status quo" that a bible
group would make such claims. Lest we forget, their are branches of christianity
what teach that "Dacing is Evil." Why not a "parlor game?"
Jon WolF - Si tu voulais gagner, pourquoi joues-tu avec moi?
Greg James
In article <1ufqem$3...@meaddata.meaddata.com>, ti...@meaddata.com (Tim Klein) writes:
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
|>
|> Alberta parents warned not to dabble in occult
|>
|> AIRDRIE, Alta.
|>
|> Parents in this community just north of Calgary are being warned of the
|> dangers of dabbling in the occult after students participating in a Ouija game
|> required psychiatric treatment.
|>
|> Two teenagers were taken to hospital with convulsions and hallucinations
|> after a group of 10 students used a Ouija board, a device or game that some
|> believe conveys advice from the spirit world.
|>
|> "The Ouija board isn't the issue," said Pat McLaughlin, superintendent of the
|> Airdrie separate school division. "It could have been the game Dungeons and
|> Dragons or anything similar - they all involve trying to get into the Devil's
|> spirit."
It is probably worth pointing out that Mr./Ms. McLaughlin is superintendent of
the separate school board, which means Catholic school board in Alberta. This
may better explain the instant blame being placed on the Devil. Around Calgary,
the separate school board is mostly known for hiring relatives and friends, and
not rational, scientific explanations of human behaviour.
--
In Canada, room temperature IQs went down | Greg James
51 points in 1977. | Advanced Decision Systems
| Alberta Research Council
"Morals just ruin your weekend." | ja...@skyler.arc.ab.ca
Pat Luther
>I can't believe it (specially the thing about the mother and the bible
>circle......*that's* odd! Very odd!
I can believe it. And I don't think it's that odd at all. Unfortunately.
There seem to be a lot of people who have similar experiences.
When I was a Sophomore in High School, my parents burned all my D&D (and
Gamma World, and Metamorphosis Alpha...) stuff because they thought it
was Satanic, they actually had *me* convinced for a while (a very short
while...)
They also bought me my original stuff.
Anybody else?
??pat
--
Pat Luther: Lex's Evil Twin
picard!p...@percy.rain.com <-- NeXTmail OK.
plu...@percy.rain.com (sometimes quicker)
lut...@uop.edu (could take days, or even weeks)
"If there's nothing wrong with me, then maybe there's
something wrong with the universe!"
-- Dr. B. Crusher
Talal S. Hattar
a friend that tried to get me into it when I was in junior high, but he was
a dreadful bore as a DM, and I abandoned it as the most dull game in the
universe. Since I was reintroduced, however, it has unleashed my bent for
the theatrical and my desire to live out epic histories over pizza and beer.
I'm a political science major, and I've had great fun playing feudal power
games with the D.M. Like the time we raised an army a razed Hellgate Keep.
Wow, what a feeling. That is possibly the most stupid statement I've made
in my life. Oh well.
My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
and D&D begin? Is it the pagan deities? I have to admit that they are a little
disturbing at first, but as a D.M. I certainly would rather roleplay a non-
existent fictional deity, rather than try to roleplay the Lord Almighty. As
a Catholic, _that_ concept is frightening. Since I bought my D&D junk (a more
and more appropriate term considering some of the garbage the T$R has gener-
ated lately) I never had my parents take any of the stuff away. My mother was
a little concerned when she found out that I was playing, but when she came
to visit me for a few days, she got to overhear us playing one evening, and
she said it sounded like fun. She shied away from joining us, however.
Another thing that I can think of is that D&D can be a little addictive.
I find when I roll up a new character, he will tend to invade my mind for a
few days. It's never lasted longer than that, and once I start role-playing
that character for a few sessions, it wears off entirely. I don't think its
any different for an actor starting a new part (Is anyone in drama here that
can reflect on this?). I am curious to hear any theories on why such a de-
lightful pasttime gets such a lousy reputation, particularly from such wound
up individuals. One would think that Tipper Gore, et al. would have some
other causes on their mind in this age of decline. Then again, since she
had to promise to behave to our friends in the music industry, she probably
needs to focus her spare time on something.
Talal Hattar
hat...@dopey.cc.utexas.edu
Edward F. Rishel
Over Christmas break of 1992 I had brought the Advanced D&D playing supplement
called Castles home with me (It has a lot of stuff in it to be put together
and glued). Everyday for about a week I plopped it down on the dining room
table and tried to get a little bit more of it done. My mother would look
at me doing this as she went about the house and every once in a while would
ask an innocent question as to what I was doing and what I was going to use
the cardboard castle for (it was to be a miniature supplement for a GURPS
fantasy game). Then at about the fourth day she burst out and said how people
were driven insane and to satanism when they played D&D. Needless to say I
was bemused by her comments since I knew this was coming for days. The funny
thing is that she was the one who originally bought me my old D&D books
way back in the late 70s to make up for the pain I was going through when I
had my teeth pulled.
It seems that we all have the same experience of overtly religious parents
who buy as D&D and then hear some bible group discussion/TV or radio preacher/
blown out of proportion article all which seem to blame all the evils of
teenage suicide/rebellion upon a simple game while ignoring the real problem.
Maybe we should form a club or something. While researching a paper at
college I looked up some articles in a database containing abstracts for
psychological periodicals. On a whim I looked up research papers on the
psychological well being of D&D players (all these articles focused upon
Advanced D&D instead of other role playing games, probably because of the
blame placed on this one title). The articles I came up with were well
researched, unbiased, and all came to the conclusion that D&D is not the
cause of anti-social and criminal behaviour. In fact one of them say that
role players score very low on indicators of criminal behaviour than the
control groups did (non D&D players).
Some of you may recall the case against Judas Priest in which the lyrics
on their album were accused of containing satanic lyrics that caused
two men to commit suicide (one succeeded, the other was horribly deformed
until he had an overdose of medicine a few years later). A documentary
was done one the court case. It was very unbiased in my opinion and the
reason I mention this is that these type of documentaries are despised
by those who have something to hide. It became apparent as I watched
the documentary that the parents of the surviving kid had no idea of what
was going on in their kid's life until he attempted suicide. They
ignored the warning signs of a kid in deep psychological turmoil and did
not give him the psychological and social support that he needed. In fact
they probably did not know that there was something wrong until he put the
shotgun to his face and pulled the trigger. I would propose that these
rare stories that we hear about kids killing themself or killing others
and then the fact comes out that he played role playing games are the
same as the Judas Priest case. The family is going through deep psychological
turmoil at the death of a younger family member and they lash out looking
for a reason why. Usually the family upbringing and social environment is
to blame but looking inward and discovering that one was a bad parent is
just too painful so they look for an easy scapegoat and guess what is on
hand? The media is more than pleased to grab onto a family's grief and
use it to sell air time and TV preachers climb over one another to use it
as a soap box to get up on and grab more viewers. It is a sad state of affairs
but look at it this way, the family has to live with itself. They know the
truth (whether conciosuly or subconciously) and will have to live with the
events that caused their child's death for the rest of their life. It is
a little known fact that for children who die or commit suicide, there is a
40% divorce rate among the surviving parents. I am not saying that these
people are justified in falsely accusing a game for their child's death but
I am saying that these people are hurting deep down inside and are trying to
make sense out of a senseless death.
Edward F. Rishel
teri...@mcs.drexel.edu
Daniel D. Harrington
>
> I am curious to hear any theories on why such a de-
>lightful pasttime gets such a lousy reputation, particularly from such wound
>up individuals. One would think that Tipper Gore, et al. would have some
I personally have never really had any trouble with my parents, but
I know a lot of people who have, this really pisses me off. I really hate
the fact that TSR and these other gaming companies are so meek. I've never
heard any real response from any of these people. My theory on this role-
playing/satan worship bullshit is as follows:
The ignorant fear what they do not understand and the natural
reaction to this is to attack it. So instead of trying to understand
and become informed about role-playing, they put a brand on it and live
in ignorance. From my experiences, everyone who was opposed to rpgs had
no real concept of what they were all about. These same people will deny
any offer to get to know the truth. Anyone who links rpgs with satan-worship
is wallowing in their own ignorance.
Oh yeah, FUCK Geraldo Rivera!!!
.
--
******"All here are now judged, and all are found wanting." - Milamber******
Dan "MISANTHROPE" Harrington
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: gt0...@prism.gatech.edu
Dan Peters
>It seems that we all have the same experience of overtly religious parents
>who buy as D&D and then hear some bible group discussion/TV or radio preacher/
>blown out of proportion article all which seem to blame all the evils of
>teenage suicide/rebellion upon a simple game while ignoring the real problem.
>Maybe we should form a club or something.
Just for the record....
My parents fit well into the "overtly religious" category. But they have
always had a healthy attitude towards D&D and other RPGs. When they first
heard the ravings of the anti-D&D types, they didn't fall for it, because (a)
they could see for themselves that D&D etc. were doing no harm to me or my
brothers, and (b) they were aware of what the game was really about and could
see no "theoretical" reason why there should be a problem with it.
Many Christians are into RPGs. I'm under the impression that there is even
a clergyman of some kind in the Committee for the Advancement of Role-playing
Games ... (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
Even in "conservative" churches (I was brought up in one) the anti-RPGers may
be loud, but (in my experience) they are not so numerous.
Drin
--
^..^ / | Dan Peters | "He who would cross the Sea of Fate |
/_/\_____/ | | must answer me these questions 28." |
/\ /\ |pet...@physics.ubc.ca|[from an early draft of Monty Python & the |
/ \ / \ | |Holy Grail, shortly after the bridge scene]|
Dan Peters
> My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
>how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
>and D&D begin?
Good question. I've wondered that myself. I have tried to pay attention to
what the "D&D-is-Satanic" types say, in order to try to answer it.
My (tentative) conclusion (however surprising this may be to you) is simply
that the silliness comes from this: Magic is included in the game, and PCs
can be magic-users. I'll try to explain. A typical modern Christian attitude
to the supernatural is that all supernatural events are either of God or of
the devil; i.e. there is no such thing as "neutral" magic, magic from human
power, psychic phenomena etc. So, in this view, to roleplay a magic-user is
to roleplay an active Satanist. This is close enough to "direct dealing with
the occult" for it to be considered dangerous.
Whether my theory is right or not, whoever started all this obviously had a
less-than-complete understanding of what D&D is all about. And many of those
who propagate it don't have the faintest clue what it's about, but they talk
about it anyway. It's maddening....
ns...@aurora.alaska.edu
And this is just about the time that the Cathlic church in the US is getting
grilled over, priests molesting young boys, sex games and gang rapes of young
boys.. See REF: St. Lawrence School. This months Time mag, but there has been
other incidents of priests becomign as perverted as those they say they are
against. So basically what I am saying is Mr. McLaughlin is probably calling
the kettle black.. Namely the Catholic Church needs to clean its own house
before they throw stones at anyone else..
The kids in Psychiatric Therapy are there becusse there parents thing they are
crazym and probably not because the kids are. Its liek the parents puting their
kids in mental hospitals, when there is nothing wrong with the kids, but the
parents want to pay, so the hospitals take them in (actually private clinics)..
Morgoth the Mad lives in Rogue AIs everywhere!
(I just liek the way the name runs off my tongue, not identifying with Morgoth
from Tolkien)..
Morgoth means black goth.
Boris Grasser
: <stuff deleted> Usually the family upbringing and social environment is
: to blame but looking inward and discovering that one was a bad parent is
: just too painful so they look for an easy scapegoat and guess what is on
: hand? The media is more than pleased to grab onto a family's grief and
: use it to sell air time and TV preachers climb over one another to use it
: as a soap box to get up on and grab more viewers. It is a sad state of : affairs
Edward..You are speaking out of the dephts of my heard....
...and not only in this point !!!!!
schi...@cnsvax.uwec.edu
> My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
> how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
> and D&D begin?
Here is my opinion. D&D is(was) a rather unique game in that it (if played
right) challenges you to re-evaluate the concept of right and wrong. No other
game has the characters morality as a core element in the game. Also, many
adventures in D&D involve elaborate illusion and subterfuge. PCs quickly learn
that all is not what it seems to be. Overall direction of a character's actions
are looked at instead of what the character says.
Both these skills, self-guided morality and the ability to resist charismatic
reasoning have never been friends of the church. I don't want this to turn into
an attack against the church, but they do love to have mindless subjects. Just
TRY and ask a question to most Roman Catholic priests, I have. The good ones
will try and help, but the official(?) line seems to be "if you don't believe
what we say without question, then you don't belong here". I had to agree.
Secondly, don't underestimate the power of fear. When Hitler wanted to unify
Germany under one banner he found an enemy to hate, the Jews. When tele-bible
thumpers need a way to boost ratings, what better way than to instill fear into
the hearts of the mindless population? Give parents something to direct their
fear at and POOF, you have a devoted following of mid to upper class sheep to
sheer.
I belive that religion has a place, but it really bothers me when it gets used
for personal gain. There has been scapegoats for this behavior ever since
people ran out of plagues and such to personify the devil. After all, just 60
years ago, many considered the sax to be the instrument of the devil.
A. Schieffer
I am probably wrong.
Will Timmins
Just a little thing, for Morgoth-
Please, it's 'like'. Not 'liek'.
Thank you.
--
[Pooh Bear incarnate. ]
[H1 C+ F+ W G+ K+ S+ R- E+ P ]
[ ]
[To email, please make sure to mail to po...@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu]
Muppet
(Talal S. Hattar) writes:
[paraphrase mode on]
> I am curious to hear any theories on why such a delightful pasttime gets such
> a lousy reputation, particularly from such wound up individuals.
[off]
>Talal Hattar
>hat...@dopey.cc.utexas.edu
I think that a little bit of imagination is senn as dangerous. What worries me
is that people can watch TV and assume that everything they see/hear is true and
unequivicable. TV is a nice "safe" medium in most parents eyes. They trust the
producers of programs to research their material and present a balanced
report on events. Alas the producers know their power and can bias peoples views
by reporting in a biassed manner.
I'm not saying they do this to intentionally persecute a particular cause, but
money talks, and sensationalism makes money. Thankfully the TV in this country
isn't quite as open to abuse by the public. I say thankfully, having so many
channels has its advantages as well as disadvantages. The fact that some peoples
parents trust in the messages they get from the media and not in their own kids
is a sign of the power the TV et al has over our lives, but also a sign that
they truely care for our welfare.
I count myself lucky coming from Britain. Our TV media is as biassed as the
American media but they seldom produce programs that create a "state of fear"
against a particular subject. And of course having fewer channels means they
cater less for extremist views and more for a general audience. This I attribute
to general British apathy for anything that doesn't really involve them. I've
had few questions asked of gaming, most of them sparked by reports of programs
from America.
RPGs, like TV, radio, literary publications are methods of communication. The
medium is not at fault, the message is. Unfortunately, like drugs, some mediums
are accepted by society, like TV and radio, others, like ours, have yet to be
accepted. Before we start to scream and shout about injustice, best to look at
the message we are trying to give to the people through our medium and make
sure that we *do* portray a "good" message.
Once we are sure about the cleanliness of our own front yard should we try to
encourage the neighbours to look over the fence and see for themselves rather
than just yelling back at them about the state of their yard. Then perhaps we
should take a look at their yard and see if we can help clean it up.
It's hard to love someone who's screaming for your voice to be removed.
Love to you all
Max u9...@ecs.ox.ac.uk
pri...@black.ox.ac.uk
xm...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk
Disclaimer: I do not represent the views of anyone else. I answer EMail.
Paul Goodwin
WolF) says:
>Why does anyone see this as odd? I find it quite "status quo" that a bible
>christianit
>what teach that "Dacing is Evil." Why not a "parlor game?"
Actually, I find that the "status quo" is that some groups claim that
"Dancing is Evil" or "D&D is Evil" and then some RPGers have hysterical
fits. Then, RPGers say "Christianity is full of it" and some Christians
have hysterical fits.
The sad fact is that as long as we continue to make and see only in
sweeping generalizations, we haven't got a prayer of educating anyone.
Paul
The Necromancer
>
>While researching a paper at college I looked up some articles in a database
>psychological well being of D&D players (all these articles focused upon
>Advanced D&D instead of other role playing games, probably because of the
>blame placed on this one title). The articles I came up with were well
>researched, unbiased, and all came to the conclusion that D&D is not the
>cause of anti-social and criminal behaviour. In fact one of them say that
>role players score very low on indicators of criminal behaviour than the
>control groups did (non D&D players).
>
>teri...@mcs.drexel.edu
Could you post the specific journals you found these articles in? I think
some of us would be very interested in reading them. If for no other
reason than to arm ourselves with THE FACTS.
--
The Necromancer
|To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
|and the dancers hit eachother.
The WolF
>I, jw...@nyx.cs.du.edu (The WolF) said:
>>Why does anyone see this as odd? I find it quite "status quo" that a bible
>>group would make such claims. Lest we forget, their are branches of
>Actually, I find that the "status quo" is that some groups claim that
>"Dancing is Evil" or "D&D is Evil" and then some RPGers have hysterical
>fits. Then, RPGers say "Christianity is full of it" and some Christians
>have hysterical fits.
>The sad fact is that as long as we continue to make and see only in
>sweeping generalizations, we haven't got a prayer of educating anyone.
Paul, good to see you again! :)
All I was saying is that if we here in the US can have branches of Christianity
what teach that "Dancing is Evil" (and there are more than one what do), why
should it suprise anyone that a few (or more ...) feel the same way about a
"parlor game"?
I'm not making sweeping generalizations about anyone at all. I am merely saying
that, from my owm point of view, it is not THAT big a leap ... I should also
state, that "satanism" is most often associated with (anti-) christianity,
not Huduism, Toaism, etc ... This is why the "christians" get dragged into this
debate so bleeding often. It does also seem to be them screaming the loudest.
Again, I am not referring to all of them, just a vocal few.
n.b., I am not claiming or disclaiming ANY religion affiliation here ...
Jon WolF
Duncan Peter G. Thornton
there who are frightened by having the Brothers Grimm in school
textbooks. To them, magic & the supernatural=Satan & even "pretend"
magic is likely to contaminate you. confirms their suspicions.
obsessed and close themselves in the basement and play D&D for two
weeks straight without washing just adds to their suspicion.
It's not even that they're stupid or ignorant; once you accept the
premise, _anything_ that touches on the supernatural that involves
their kids ought to scare them.
Duncan Thornton | An odd thought strikes me - we shall receive no
tho...@ccu.umanitoba.ca | email in the grave.
Kevin J. Duling
: Talal S. Hattar writes:
: > My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
: >how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
: >and D&D begin?
: Good question. I've wondered that myself. I have tried to pay attention to
: what the "D&D-is-Satanic" types say, in order to try to answer it.
I remember that, when 2nd Ed. first came out, there was a big hoo-ha about
the fact that "Demons" and "Devils" were not put into the Monstrous
Compendium. The arguement for this (coming from some issue of Dragon I
have buried under later issues) was that one of the main associations
people made with Satanism and AD&D were the devils and demons listed in the
Monster Manual. By taking them out, TSR hoped to reduce the flack they
were getting from the "angry parents." Naturally, it didn't work because
the association had already been made.
--
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
/* The opinions expressed in the preceding message are mine and mine alone.
They do not represent those of my employer, my wife, my family, my
friends, or anyone else for that matter. */
Kevin J. Duling \\ WARNING: Scientists are known to cause
kdu...@carl.org \\ cancer in certain laboratory animals.
Gregory Schulte
>fl...@rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de (Boris Grasser) writes:
>
>>I can't believe it (specially the thing about the mother and the bible
>>circle......*that's* odd! Very odd!
>
>I can believe it. And I don't think it's that odd at all. Unfortunately.
>There seem to be a lot of people who have similar experiences.
>When I was a Sophomore in High School, my parents burned all my D&D (and
>Gamma World, and Metamorphosis Alpha...) stuff because they thought it
>was Satanic, they actually had *me* convinced for a while (a very short
>while...)
>
>They also bought me my original stuff.
>
>Anybody else?
>
> ??pat
I'm shocked... I wish I could have some of the stuff that you guys got
burned/trashed/destroyed... Metamorphosis Alpha is hard to find these days!
And I thought my mother was being mean when she took away my books so I'd
do my homework in junior-high. (I'd just make up rules, or pull from memory
when she did that... you can't ground someone from their imagination!)
But she always gave it back...
My parents, while they didn't encourage me to play D&D, realized it was just
a game, and also saw the amount that it sparked my interest in reading and
drawing. They just thought it took too much time away from my schoolwork.
Did anyone who had their stuff destroyed still attempt to do stuff with
their own rules? Did they just play over their friends'? Did they just
quit playing?
Gregory Schulte
Gregory...@Sun.COM
Weldon Chen
their main concern was the issue of gods in the Ad&d worlds. They felt that
role-playing in a world such as Dragonlance, violates the "thy shall only
worhip God" commandment. To role-play in that world, character would
or could interact with gods like Paladine, Takhisis, etc. which is (in their
mind set) worshiping a false god. Some of my friends do play, but only is
their are not god (or devils for that matter) present in the current
campaign.
Weldon
--
--------------------------True Life Adventure--------------------------------
While waiting in line at the local grocery store...
A little girl and her mother walked into line behind me.
She looked at me in a funny way and looked up at her mother.
"Mommy, is that a homeless person?" she asked, leaving no
doubt by pointing straight at me.
"No, honey," replied her mother. "That is a college student."
Lord Peter Wimsey
the boys at a local yeshiva (Orthodox Jewish school) who were avid DnD'ers.
Furthermore, there was even an Orthodox rabbi who played Traveller.
TTFN,
Lord Peter
--
The Nevada Test Site: Better bombs for a better tomorrow.
pa...@arc.ug.eds.com
D&D (the only game that is generally known) involves magic.
To the fundamentalists magic is inherently Satanic.
It's that simple.
Paul King.
Barbara Haddad
> >lightful pasttime gets such a lousy reputation, particularly from such wound
> >up individuals. One would think that Tipper Gore, et al. would have some
>
>
> I personally have never really had any trouble with my parents, but
> I know a lot of people who have, this really pisses me off. I really hate
> the fact that TSR and these other gaming companies are so meek. I've never
(stuff omitted)
However, I agree with your first point. Even tho my folks are rather
rabid about religion, they've seen the _good_ bits of FRPG's -- they got
my brother (with a reading disability) wanting to read -- the games were
nice, safe, sexless activities for teens to engage in -- it transformed
their oldest kid from an introvert to an extroverted DM -- (* PLUS *) --
realizing my folks had problems, I was bright enough never to have
elements of demon worship/nastiness in games that were held in my folk's
house ........... all they ever heard was the heroic attempts of the
"good guys' as they went to rescue villages (etc) from 'bad guys'.
Properly presented, it sounded just like the morality-building
stuff they endorsed. (Since leaving home, I've often been dragged into
other family arguement as friends would get _me_ to help explain to their
parents why FRPGs are innocuous, etc.
The main point to remember is to empathize the good points of the
game & present the good sides of the game if monitored.....
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Haddad - mel...@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Kevin J. Duling
: I'm shocked... I wish I could have some of the stuff that you guys got
: burned/trashed/destroyed... Metamorphosis Alpha is hard to find these days!
I've never seen it, but I've got a few articles in Dragon about it (How
Green is my Mutant and Alternate Beginnings...issue #43, I think).
: And I thought my mother was being mean when she took away my books so I'd
: do my homework in junior-high. (I'd just make up rules, or pull from memory
That's the worst my parents ever did to me, too. But then, my father has a
Phd. in Psycology and was Director of Counseling and Student Development at
NMSU for 18 years. Neither he nor my mother had a hysterical view of the
game. They never played, tho. I think the closest to an "incident" I ever
had was with my mother when she said, "you know, Kevin, it wasn't a whole
lot of fun living in mediaeval times." I told her I knew that, didn't want
to, and this was just an interactive fiction anyway...and that was that.
My wife's father is a Catholic Deacon. He also holds two or three degrees
in Engineering. He's never objected to the game, either.
I think one of the most amusing things is that I submitted my character
generator to an interviewer when I graduated from college. I was hired and
a few other people I worked with then wanted to know if they could join my
gaming group. Go figure...
agu...@kirk.msoe.edu
> Could you post the specific journals you found these articles in? I think
> some of us would be very interested in reading them. If for no other
> reason than to arm ourselves with THE FACTS.
The Committee for the Advancement of Role-Playing Games has a few
psychological studies among its archives (I don't know any titles or the
like off-hand). If anyone is interested in getting a list of our holdings
(or getting more info on the CAR-PGa for that matter), write to:
CAR-PGa
111 E. 5th
Bonham, TX 75418
(I'd say you could also write to me but I've been very busy with schoolwork
the past nine months so I haven't been able to keep up-to-date with our
holdings).
Bruce A. Gulke
Director, Region 2, CAR-PGa
Bryce Harrington
checking out a biography called _The_Dungeon_Master_. It tells the
story of a boy who disappeared from college after playing D&D in the
maintenance tunnels under the school. The press put forth the idea
that the boy had been killed by fellow D&D'ers, but the truth was
that he had simply run away and gotten kidnapped.
The book was written by the private investigator who was hired by
the family to find the boy, so it's a first hand account with
lots of detail. It doesn't explicitly say it in the book, but
I believe that this case was what lead to all of the suspicion of
D&D as being a "bad influence". The truth of it was that the
boy had a bunch of problems that stemmed from his family life,
including low self esteem, drug use, homosexuality, etc. He was
in college at age 16 (or thereabouts).
Anyway, if you have some time, you might want to check this book out
and read it this summer. It'll give you a lot of insight into this
whole anti-D&D thing.
Bryce Harrington
P.S. The events took place in the early seventies, if I remember
correctly, and the book was published in the late 70's/early 80's,
Edward F. Rishel
Oops! Sorry I did not mean to say that all Christians are raving, bible
thumping, anti-RPG, pinheads. It's just that the tiny minority that do fit
this description are the ones that get all the press. The majority must
suffer because of the views of a very vocal minority. I apologize to any
practicing Christians for any negative feelings that may come from my post.
ns...@aurora.alaska.edu
Hum, interesting, a good idea...
I did post a open invite to come and look at this thread to sci.psycology
so we can have soem 'professionals' look in and give us soem insight, not sure
if any will reply or take up the invite (got some email thou, waiting on
okay)..
Later and enjoy..
Yes its amazing how close anti-roleplayig (D&D in specific) christian come to
being exactly what they think D&D is.. Alot of paralels..
gary van lingen
The right wing Christian groups have had this satanism-D&D connection for
some time. Ever since 1982 (which is the earliest reference I have), there
have been more and more of these Christians claiming that D&D is an entry
level introduction to the occult, satanism, and worse (?). THe worst of
these has been the Christian Life Ministries. This group functions from
around the L. A. area and has been publishing and producing anti-gaming
tracts since 1982. They have been hooked up to several other smaller,
regional groups who also have an anti-gaming interest. This Christian Life
Ministries is somewhat really patriotically paranoid (they have a quarterly
publishing that contains information of the world government, Zionism,
Muslims, Masonry and the EEC. They are still painting Communist countries
as hotbeds of satan's followers. In their publications for sale section,
they have really pushed their anti-gaming agenda. They sell publications,
tracts, tapes, and transcripts which all supposedly show how evil the game
is.
If there is interest, I could start putting some of their stuff on the Net
for general distribution. As I still get their material regularly (they
send it free, I figure that so long as I am a net loss for their
organization, why tell them they are losing money), I could also update
their information as they decide to print it. I have about 200 pages of
information they have published for the period 1983-1986 and I am about to
get new material soon. It would at least be entertaining to see what we are
being reviled for.
gary van lingen (gvan...@mach1.wlu.ca)
Sly
I know that my parents seem to have a problem because when you are Role-
Playing, you are doing something that can't be seen. You have to think
of what it looks like to the outside world and to people that don't
Role-Play. What they see are a bunch of idiots clustered around a table
playing a "game" with no permanent board, no real concrete rules, no real
way to win or lose, pretending that they can cast spells, and kill imaginary
creature. Of course this looks strange, and a bit scary. It looks down
right stupid. Add to the fact that half of the people who play a are wee
bit strange in comparison to societal norms anyway (most people do not
wear "Nzthealeoiun, God of Blood and child killing" tee-shirts!), and of
course they are going to be freaked.
My problem is compounded by the fact that my parents hate science
fiction in general as well. They don't understand how you can enjoy
something that is so "far fetched". I usually get around it, but they
still do not appreciate me Role-Playing. Luckily I think that they believe
in me as a person enough to realise that I am strong willed and intelligent
enough to not get involved with "Satanic covens" or something. This helps.
However, I still get complaints, but they have never actually tried to stop
me (luckily for them).
If people are confused about Role-Playing, I like to use the parallel
of acting. When people go to see the Phantom of the Opera or some such
work you don't see people going, "What in the hell is he doing? He's not
the Phantom! He's Michael Crawford. Is he deranged? Is he possesed?
Why is he pretending to be someone else? He can't really shoot fireballs
out of his staff! This guy is strange!" I find that people who can sit
and watch people play police officers on TV should have no problems with
people who enjoy playing super agents in Top Secret.
--------------------------------------------------
| "In the midst of the word he was trying to say |
| In the midst of his laughter and glee, | -Sly
| He had softly and suddenly vanished away---- |
| For the Snark was a Boojum, you see." | mtli...@midway.uchicago.edu
| Lewis Carroll |
--------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Dodd
>In article <1umg62$r...@dopey.cc.utexas.edu>, hat...@dopey.cc.utexas.edu (Talal S. Hattar) writes:
>
>> My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
>> how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
>> and D&D begin?
>Here is my opinion. D&D is(was) a rather unique game in that it (if played
>right) challenges you to re-evaluate the concept of right and wrong. No other
>game has the characters morality as a core element in the game. Also, many
>adventures in D&D involve elaborate illusion and subterfuge. PCs quickly learn
>that all is not what it seems to be. Overall direction of a character's actions
>are looked at instead of what the character says.
Actually, in a way the issue is bigger than that. I am the kind of person
Christianity loves to hate. Not just a gamer, but also Society for Creative
Anachonism, a Renaissance Faire participant, and (gulp) a pagan. I firmly
believe that Christianity is right for some people, and is not an intrinsically
bad thing, but it does require a particular thought system that must go
unchallenged. What our "Cultist" or "Satanic" activities do, and for that
matter, what every lifestyle the churches oppose offer is a different
perspective that forces you to think of you own conclusions rather than those
of the bible. It may be very true that in their own way games underride faith,
but only in the same way debate and consideration do. What is most
frightening is that the church automatically condemns an activity that forces
you to think "What would a thief do here and why?" rather than "What would
Jesus do here?" What different perspectives do is force you to consider the
human next to you as a real person, who does real things that are sometimes
good and sometimes not. That doesn't leave as much room to believe that the
only two kinds of people in the world are the saved and damned.
I'd love to say talking over our differences would work, but it won't. The
people doing the condemning aren't willing to hear another viewpoint, that's
what they think is wrong with us in the first place. For the moment, I have the
legal right the live the way I want and play the games I want, but that may be
changing before to long. Gaming books are already illeagal in some places, and
where does it stop? I have been afraid to be open about my religion in many
places, and I have been looked in the face and informed "Thou shalt not suffer
a witch to live." Ten years ago, when this all started, Christian extremeism
was almost a laughable phenomenon. Now it is an institution, passing laws in
many states. And if Alberta makes a law stating that there shall be no sale of
games which are found to have a connection to the occult to minors? Not saying
that they have or will, but it certainly isn't a far-fetched option.
Where does it end?
A few conserns from
Q
--
There is a theory which states that if the true nature of the universe is ever
discovered, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more
bizarrely inexplicable. There is a second theory which states that *THIS HAS
ALREADY HAPPENED*--HGTTG ubi...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu
ste...@arc.ug.eds.com
>
> The right wing Christian groups have had this satanism-D&D connection for
> some time. Ever since 1982 (which is the earliest reference I have), there
I could probably dig out references back to about 1979. I'm fairly
certain there were negative reactions on the 700 Club in 80 or 81.
(recalling mentions made way back when in Alarums & Excursions)
agu...@kirk.msoe.edu
> If you find this thread interesting, you may also be interested in
> checking out a biography called _The_Dungeon_Master_. It tells the
> story of a boy who disappeared from college after playing D&D in the
> maintenance tunnels under the school. The press put forth the idea
> that the boy had been killed by fellow D&D'ers, but the truth was
> that he had simply run away and gotten kidnapped.
Just a couple of notes about the book:
I read THE DUNGEON MASTER a few years ago, soon after it came out. The
book reads very well for non-fiction, and is worth reading for it's
mystery as well as it's gaming-association.
William Dear, the PI who investigated the case, took time to play a game
of D&D and devoted an entire chapter to the session. However, he played
with an extremely uncooperative player and the DM (there were only two
others present besides Dear) ran a rather poor adventure (IMHO). The
session did not give a good impression of D&D.
While the book (written by Dear, BTW) clearly shows that D&D had nothing
to do with Egbert's (the kid) suicide attempts and eventual success, Dear
is now an anti-gaming type. I believe he associates with Pat Pulling and
her ilk (but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that!:)
Akira
William Lachance
Just who is this Pat Pulling? I know, it's probably
been asked before but I haven't been on Usenet for years. E-mail
replies would be prefered,
--
===============================================================================
|| William Lachance || E-mail address: ad...@freenet.carleton.ca |
|| "All I needed to learn about life I learned from Realms of Chaos - me ;-) |
===============================================================================
The Grim Reaper
I also read this book a few years ago, and got much the same impression.
Although D&D had very, very little to do with the kid being so wacky, the
title is just another example of how willing people are to place the blame
on D&D. Even tho it had nothing to do with him being crazy (he already was,
more or less), the book is still titled The Dungeon Master. Go figure, eh?
============================================================
"Where am I? || The Grim Reaper
In The Village. || scy...@u.washington.edu
What do you want? |===============================
Information. || HIC IACET ARTVRVS IN INSVLA
What side are you on? || AVALONIA
That would be telling...." || REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
--The Prisoner ||
============================================================
Tim Klein
>
>Many Christians are into RPGs. I'm under the impression that there is even
>a clergyman of some kind in the Committee for the Advancement of Role-playing
>Games ... (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
Paul Cardwell, Jr., the Chair of CARPGa, is a practicing minister.
Lee Short
>
>Here is my opinion. D&D is(was) a rather unique game in that it (if played
>right) challenges you to re-evaluate the concept of right and wrong.
Pardon me? I don't see how the view of morality presented in D&D
could *possibly* challenge anyone to re-evaluate the concept of right
and wrong. It's my opinion that the alignment system (and the set of
punishments for transgressions) was simply there to force some kind of
consistency on the PCs. It was never intended as a serious theory of
morality, and if taken as one, it is worse than half-baked.
There are two possibilities here:
(1) An alignment is merely a *description* of someone's morality, and
isn't really involved in the person's actions and thoughts. For
example: Fred is a limited-government advocate, and a strong
pacifist. When Fred decides upon his actions, he takes these into
consideration and chooses his actions. His 'alignment' of chaotic
good is merely a description of how he tends to act.
Clearly, in this case, there is no new insight into morality
offered by the alignment system, as it is merely used to categorize
existing moralities. The only thing new is some metaphysical import
given to these descriptions of morality. If you think you can come up
with a decent argument for why we ought to give these descriptions
some metaphysical import, I'm all ears.
(2) An alignment is a fundamental part of someone's morality. The
alignment itself is considered in determining their actions. For
example: Judy is Neutral Good. Judy actively considers her alignment
when evaluating potential courses of action. "I'm Neutral Good, so I
shouldn't/won't/can't pocket this gold watch I found on the street --
I will go and turn it in to the police." This is decidedly different
from (1), where Judy would think "I don't believe in taking the
possessions of others, so I will go and turn it in to the police."
If you believe that this is a reasonable theory of morality, I
have nothing more to say to you.
>No other
>game has the characters morality as a core element in the game.
You mean: no other game gives metaphysical import to its own peculiar
method of classifying moralities.
And they're better off for it. I personally neither need nor want
that kind of "help" in roleplaying.
I can remember the last D&D campaign I played in. I designed my
character, explained him to the GM, then spent some time arguing with
the GM about what his alignment was. I eventually gave in to the GM,
because I realized that the alignment didn't really matter -- I knew
how the character thought.
Lee
Lee Short le...@asf.com Man is a credulous animal, and must believe
Software Janitor *something*; in the absence of good grounds
Hughes Training, Inc. for belief, he will be satisfied with bad
Minneapolis, MN ones. -- Bertrand Russell
Ninstar Cybermage: Black Phoenix Rising
minor student in college(That is, he was a young "genius" who had been put
into college at a young age). He was constantly pressured, both to succeed
and to participate in "normal" society. That kind of stress can make people
do weird things. My body responded to this kind of stress by giving me
cancer. Most people just kill themselves in this situation, or get on with
their lives.
Thing is, people are far too willing to go into a suicide victim's room, find
a D&D book, and instantly say: "That's it! That's what did it!"
James O. Shank Jr. HEE! v131...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
AKA: Ninstar Cybermage I or sh...@acsu.buffalo.edu
Black Phoenix Rising... A or aa...@freenet.acsu.buffalo.edu
XINEOHPAEGAMREBYCRATSNINMONMYWAYBACKTOTHEWAYTHINGSARESUPPOSEDTOBELIFEISGOODYAY
"Anyone with a .sig more than four lines long is a self important fool!"-Marek
"OOPS! 8-)" -Ninstar, on line 6 of his .sig
"The C programming language - a language which combines the flexibility of
Assembly language with the power of Assembly language."
Glen Justin Balmer
>In article <1umngd...@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, pet...@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters) writes:
>>
>>Many Christians are into RPGs.
You are corrent, however there are some christians that are forced out of roleplaying
by the pastors/priests who run the church/school they attend.
When I attended a christian school from year8-10 (U.S equiv Junior High), the
pastor was against some rock/heavy metal bands (ac/dc,etc) and D&D.
I was converted to a christian in about year 9 I think, so the concepts of
D&D being inherintly evil grew on me.
In year 11/12 (Senior High) one of my friends introduced me to MERP/Rolemaster, and
said it was like D&D, and I said "no I didn't want to play it" because it was evil!!!
He told me that roleplaying is just like acting, except that the things your character can
do are limited by the amount of skill you have in the thing you want to do.
I was curious, as I am one of those people who wants to know both sides of
a story before making up my mind (which is why I was a half-atheist/christian before
being converted).
I played a small merp adventure where he was the GM later that same day, and discovered
it WAS NOT shouting "praise satan" and dancing naked round a table!!!!!
Shortly after that game I was playing with the group he was in.
I have drawn the line during some games, where some things that really are evil are
introduced, so I just say "I've got a early morning tomorrow, good bye", and walk out.
The thing is, every person on this earth has free will, whether christian or not.
Nobody forces you to do evil things, and if something occurs during roleplaying that
is spiritually or morally wrong, then you can simply walk out or end the game.
Once the group brought in another player, and the guy was weird to say the least. He
GM'ed once, and I walked out after 5 minutes of the adventure : the adventure was that
we PC's were a group of evil men who liked to do rotten things, and the first scene was
something like "you are around an alter, a naked woman before you" , so I just left and
shortly afterwards the friend that had introduced me to roleplaying left.
The next week the guy had been told he was no-longer welcome (his "game" was very
disturbing to some of the rest of the group - evil magic rituals, the vilest of vilest
of necromancy - the guy's brain was stuffed in a big way to say the least).
Anyway, after three or four years of roleplaying, only one or two incidents have occured
where I have walked out or stopped the game (or had a friendly chat to the GM!!).
Roleplaying has done some good things to me as well, I used to be shy and quite, and
I hated to get up in front of the class and do something (debate,speech,etc), but
now I'm not shy, and although not quite, I'm not overly (or totally) loud/boistrous.
As for 'public' speaking/debating/speeches, I'm not so "shy/nervous" anymore.
I think that roleplaying would be a good educational tool if only the general population
understood what it is all about.
Anyway, that's about all I need to say so far on this subject....
BYE 8-)
Glen Balmer.....
Glen Barnett
>Talal S. Hattar writes:
>
>> My question (I bet you thought that I was never going to get to it) is
>>how did this bizarre connection between the Unholy Powers of the Universe
>>and D&D begin?
>
>what the "D&D-is-Satanic" types say, in order to try to answer it.
>
>that the silliness comes from this: Magic is included in the game, and PCs
>can be magic-users. I'll try to explain. A typical modern Christian attitude
>to the supernatural is that all supernatural events are either of God or of
>the devil; i.e. there is no such thing as "neutral" magic, magic from human
>power, psychic phenomena etc. So, in this view, to roleplay a magic-user is
>to roleplay an active Satanist. This is close enough to "direct dealing with
>the occult" for it to be considered dangerous.
The connection made here (not by Dan - he's just reporting it) really worries
me. Even if I did roleplay a Satanist, how does that make me one? How
does imagining something about the occult (which I don't believe in
for a moment) make it true? I also watch movies, and I don't believe
them either.
Roleplaying is essentially acting - do these people believe that
Anthony Hopkins is really a cannibalistic psychiatrist because he
pretended to be one in "Silence of the Lambs"? Do they believe that
Tolkien worshipped Eru because he wrote about Middle Earth? (Actually,
by their logic, I guess they'd claim he worshipped Morgoth.)
To make such a connection (essentially "that thinking about the
possibility of something - e.g. in a story - makes it true") is something
that might also be observed in various psychological disorders,
e.g. it is observed in schizophrenics.
Not that I claim all these people are schizophrenics, but this
inability on their part to see the difference between fantasy
and reality indicates a kind of "disordered thinking". I'd be
tempted to be generous and call it "muddy thinking" or "poor logic",
but unfortunately the behaviour is far too dangerous to give it
such an acceptable title.
Next comes the book burning. And then the witch hunts. Oh dear,
I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
Glen
John H Bogan
>jbo...@ic.sunysb.edu (John H Bogan) writes:
[much snippage of my stuff]
>Far too obvious, IMHO. Satan would rather work on a more subtle way. I mean,
>what influence do RPGs have in society? TV is a much more better way to
>reach people and lure them etc. How many christians have been
>lured by TV-preachers, for example?
>Listen to Bob Dylan's song: 'Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace.'
>Would Satan be as stupid as to lure people with something that is already
>outcast and condemned like RPGs? I wouldn't even be surprised if he used
>that condemnation, not the RPGs.
Well, that may be YOUR humble opinion, which MY humble opinion is in
full agreement with, but the fact remains there are scads of people
who buy this hook, line, sinker, dock, and shoreline.
People who buy this are not strong in the critical thinking department.
>: [do they think]
>: >Tolkien worshipped Eru because he wrote about Middle Earth? (Actually,
>: >by their logic, I guess they'd claim he worshipped Morgoth.)
>:
>: No, they'd claim he worshipped Satan. And you WILL find people who
>: condemn RPGs also condemning Tolkien's books as "occult" (and therefore
>: Satanic).
>While, in fact, Tolkien was a christian. I believe most of the Inklings were.
>Atleast C.S. Lewis (chronicles of Narnia writer, and Tolkien's best friend)
>is know for his many books about christian topics.
Which doesn't save Lewis from being smeared with the "occult-and-therefore-
Satanic" label either. I have (stored away someplace) the tract
"Dark Dungeons" by Chick Publications (who must have butchered entire
forests with the sheer volume of their little comic-book style tracts)
While it exhorts the reader to burn their D&D material (_NO_(tm), so
maybe TSR could sue the bejeezuz out of them), a footnote adds something
to th effect of "and occult books by J.R.R.Tolkien and C.S.Lewis".
as I implied, some of the people in the anti-RPG crowd are pretty
rabid fanatics.
>(maybe it really becomes worthwhile to crosspost this to s.r.christian)
Perhaps, but I'll leave it to you.
>
>Great Greetings,
>mcv. <><
John H Bogan
jbo...@ic.sunysb.edu
Brent Irvine
>In article <1993Jun6....@kirk.msoe.edu> agu...@kirk.msoe.edu writes:
>>
>>While the book (written by Dear, BTW) clearly shows that D&D had nothing
>>to do with Egbert's (the kid) suicide attempts and eventual success, Dear
>>is now an anti-gaming type. I believe he associates with Pat Pulling and
>>her ilk (but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that!:)
>
>Although D&D had very, very little to do with the kid being so wacky, the
>title is just another example of how willing people are to place the blame
>on D&D. Even tho it had nothing to do with him being crazy (he already was,
>more or less), the book is still titled The Dungeon Master. Go figure, eh?
Yeah, the era of personal responsibility passed: You are not responsible
for your own actions, environmental things cause you to do things.
The guy was an unstable nut who took his own life. Any "convincing" done
was by his own deranged mind.
--
Brent Irvine | \|||||/ | Disclaimer: Any resemblance to persons
(irv...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu)| -SLACK- | living or dead is purely coincidental.
(b-ir...@uiuc.edu) | /|||||\ | Oops! Wrong one! :)
James J Davis
>My simple question is, if elves live over a century, how can you justify the
>fact that they have lower constitution than humans?
The lifespan of a species is not related to it's health. The lifespan is
controlled by the species' ability to replicate DNA without flaws. The
more perfect the replication, the longer the lifespan. You don't have to
be healty for this to work, it's automatic. Having a high CON will help
ward off diseases and increase your chance to get to maximum age, but it
is not required.
A real world example is the old statement 'healthy as a horse'. How long
do horses live?
-james
ns...@aurora.alaska.edu
I wonder what they would have said if they had found a copy of the bible next
to the body? Especially if it was open to Genesis or Revolations?
Basically what I am saying is that its all in the effect..
I agreee with Brent.. He would have killed himself with or without any
prompting from any other source.. D&D was just the scape goat..
Its all societies fault, BULL!!!! but to many peopel it is societies fault,
well no wonder the US is ina slump, cause to many peopel in the US think that
its not my fault.. Its all our faults.. after all its our governemtn (or
atleast was).. but that is a different topic.
Felis Lynx
>In article <C8CB1...@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irv...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>> In article <1utbbs...@news.u.washington.edu> scy...@stein2.u.washington.edu (The Grim Reaper) writes:
>>>In article <1993Jun6....@kirk.msoe.edu> agu...@kirk.msoe.edu writes:
>>>>
>>>>While the book (written by Dear, BTW) clearly shows that D&D had nothing
>>>>to do with Egbert's (the kid) suicide attempts and eventual success, Dear
>>>>is now an anti-gaming type. I believe he associates with Pat Pulling and
>>>>her ilk (but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that!:)
>
>
>I wonder what they would have said if they had found a copy of the bible next
>to the body? Especially if it was open to Genesis or Revolations?
>
Probably extolled the kid by saying that he had been trying to find the
path back to the light, blah, blah, blah, but that those "evil games had
too much of a hold on his soul", blah, blah, blah. Reality can be twisted
to appear however you want it....
Felis Lynx
Brent Irvine
>>
>> Yeah, the era of personal responsibility passed: You are not responsible
>> for your own actions, environmental things cause you to do things.
>>
>> The guy was an unstable nut who took his own life. Any "convincing" done
>> was by his own deranged mind.
>
>to the body? Especially if it was open to Genesis or Revolations?
Nothing. It would be labelled 'tragic suicide.' I think the whole thing
started when the mother of a child who killed himself took it upon herself
to form an anti-D&D society, claiming that D&D caused her son to become
possesed(!) or warped from his normal balanced self (Media followup
showed that the child was VERY unstable with or without D&D) and commited
suicide. The mother was suffering a BIG case of denial and used a game
he played as a scapegoat.
She created a huge media stink. The truth came out to 99% of people:
D&D caused nothing and is to many people quite boring.
>Basically what I am saying is that its all in the effect..
>I agreee with Brent.. He would have killed himself with or without any
>prompting from any other source.. D&D was just the scape goat..
The destruction of the idea of personal responsibility is a direct result
of the 'environmental' school of thought: There is no evil or badness,
it is all chalked up to environment that someone grew up in or was acting:
it removes you from the loop of responsibility for your actions.
IMHO, I think your self-control should prevent you from doing things that
are obviously destructive or evil. Simple. But then again, I am a bit
old-fashioned [as that I use logic]...
TimeLord
>
>My simple question is, if elves live over a century, how can you justify the
>to catch diseases, and less able to overcome them, they die more quickly. So
>D&D elves should die earlier than humans. If anything, elves should have a
>minimum con of 15 or something like that, to justify such incredibly long
>lifespans. Any comments?
Tolkien's elves (that was one of the main sources for TSR elves, right?)
were completely immune to disease and similar stuff-they could only be
physically damaged (I stil wonder if Tolkien's immortal elves can die of
starvation). This was a gift from Illuvatar, I think...
-------
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
== Best luck, Earthworms!!! You look like you need all the luck you can get!==
== (GDR - Grinning, Ducking & Rrunning;-) ==
== ==
== *** T I M E L O R D *** ==
== X4...@CUNYVM.BITNET HURR-GHA (MONGOLIAN-'KILL THE ENEMY!") ==
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
TimeLord
topic to 'soc.religion.christian'. All references to the authors have been
erased, with a disclaimer. I did not want any of you guys to come under fire.
That group is moderated, thus I know not if people there will ever see the
post. I also invited those curious enough to take a look at our group. We
might be getting flamed soon...
The sage finished his story and sighed.
- So what IS the answer, Master? - asked the apprentice. (Noticing puppet
strings attached to the sage's hands) - Master? MASTER?!.
<VOICE> - There are no answers, little one. Only questions...
TIMELORD -- X4...@CUNYVM.BITNET
Sly
>to the body? Especially if it was open to Genesis or Revolations?
Look, I realize that you all like gaming, as do I, but we need to
face a bit of reality here. People do not blame every suicide in the world
on role playing games. This is getting a bit whiny.
What would actually happen in this case? The child would be thought
of as a religious zealot, somewhat like David Koresh. We would here about
it being to bad, and how sad it is. Granted, Christianity wouldn't be
attacked, but that is because Christianity is too diverse. You can read
the Bible in too many ways to be able to focus on a group. In cases where
you can focus on a group, the press is more than willing to, like Jim Jones
and David Koresh.
So yes, gaming is unfairly persecuted, but this doesn't mean that
it is the only thing in the world that is.
David Covin
In article <1993Jun4.0...@cnsvax.uwec.edu> schi...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>
>Here is my opinion. D&D is(was) a rather unique game in that it (if played
>right) challenges you to re-evaluate the concept of right and wrong.
Pardon me? I don't see how the view of morality presented in D&D
could *possibly* challenge anyone to re-evaluate the concept of right
and wrong.
Hm. Well, the previous poster didn't say, for instance "the D&D
alignment system challenges you to re-evaluate..." etc. The bit that
you quoted says "D&D ... *if* *played* *right* challenges you..."
(emphasis, obviously, mine).
Which is to say, it is possible to set up a D&D game which challenges
its players to re-evaluate their conceptions of right and wrong. And
the poster you responded to believes that this is the *right* way to
play D&D (maybe).
Is that more reasonable?
(2) An alignment is a fundamental part of someone's morality. The
alignment itself is considered in determining their actions. For
example: Judy is Neutral Good. Judy actively considers her alignment
when evaluating potential courses of action. "I'm Neutral Good, so I
shouldn't/won't/can't pocket this gold watch I found on the street --
I will go and turn it in to the police." This is decidedly different
from (1), where Judy would think "I don't believe in taking the
possessions of others, so I will go and turn it in to the police."
If you believe that this is a reasonable theory of morality, I
have nothing more to say to you.
Do you also leave movie theaters when you hear characters say things
like "I am a [samurai/roman/klingon]; I will die honorably in battle,
not on my knees like a dog"? Or "I am a [jew/christian/moslem]; I
will not bow down before false idols" ?
What's wrong with using a codified system of morality which a
character has taken to be an important part of his or her identity,
to help decide the character's actions?
I find it unreasonable that D&D requires *all* characters to have
such rigidly defined moral codes, and that it penalizes them so
heavily for any changes or character growth. I also think that most
people who do things that I would consider evil, do them for reasons
other than a strong belief in their own dedication to the cause of
evil. Surely, there may be a few loony devil-worshippers who self-
identify as "evil"; but that's a boring reason to commit evil, IMHO.
And I find the idea that gods modeled on the old Greek and Roman
pantheons would have anything to do with enforcing morality, rather
ludicrous. Justice, maybe; morality, no.
So I find the D&D system a very limited system of morality, which
misses many things that I consider important and interesting. But
I do not find the example that you gave so very unreasonable.
>No other
>game has the characters morality as a core element in the game.
You mean: no other game gives metaphysical import to its own peculiar
method of classifying moralities.
And they're better off for it. I personally neither need nor want
that kind of "help" in roleplaying.
Did "No other game" in the previous post mean "no other roleplaying
game" (in which case you're both wrong-- the old Runequest had Law
and Chaos which had metaphysical import, and yet were far more "real"
feeling and believable than AD&D's system) or "no non-roleplaying
game"?
--
David Covin co...@tartarus.uchicago.edu
Brent Irvine
>>I wonder what they would have said if they had found a copy of the bible next
>>to the body? Especially if it was open to Genesis or Revolations?
>
> Look, I realize that you all like gaming, as do I, but we need to
>face a bit of reality here. People do not blame every suicide in the world
>on role playing games. This is getting a bit whiny.
When you are aware of the amount of fire rpg's are subjected to (less
than 'heavy metal' lately, but for awhile it was a Major News Item with
psychologists and psychiatrists on the talk shows talking about its
'impact' on youths as well as a few screaming mothers(punintended! :) )
blaming D&D for what appears to be either bad parenting or a chemical
imbalance in the brain)...
A large number of suicides by youth are blamed on something, a few
are blamed on rpg's -- especially when the press gets ahold of a
rulebook in the child's things (if the parents look around).
Many parents are in denial so will cling to the first 'culprit'
that "killed their child." Many times that is among the items
a few churches have cast out as 'forbidden': Rock music, rpg's,
cable TV, dancing, drinking and so on.
I'll grant that the 'D&D is evil' era is over, but a few claims crop
up and as a member of the rpg community (if THAT isn't an oxymoron...:) )
I *do* like to know. Please forgive me when I bitch about it a bit,
this kind of thing [gross misunderstanding] bugs me a lot.
>it being to bad, and how sad it is. Granted, Christianity wouldn't be
>attacked, but that is because Christianity is too diverse. You can read
>the Bible in too many ways to be able to focus on a group. In cases where
I think it is because the public is *aware* that Christianity is diverse,
as well as a wise press move not to condemn the whole thing for one or two
bad eggs (condemning Christianity because of David Koresh). The public is
not aware of the diversity in rpgs, rock music and Islam so blanket
condemnations are routinely thrown out by an ignorent press to an equally
ignorant public. [Though the Islam ignorance is lessesning as people
know the difference between the Shiite and Sunni sects...]
> So yes, gaming is unfairly persecuted, but this doesn't mean that
>it is the only thing in the world that is.
True, but this is a rpg discussion group, deliberately narrow in scope, so
expect the dicussions to be narrow in focus...
David Tannen x8273
1) Devote "Born"-Again Christian
2) Member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church
of America (pretty liberal denomination)
3) Not a regular member in 'soc.religion.christian'
group
4) Use to be an _avid_ gamer (RPG, Champions,
SciFi, etc.) Lack of time. It got
old after a while.
I would like to say that it is a tragedy when someone
kills themself. To use gaming as the scapegoat is a
big mistake. I doubt that gaming would cause someone
to kill themselves.
But to the main point here, RPG's and Satan/Evil. I
think that imagination is one of the gifts God gives
each of us. How we use that gift determines if it is
'evil' or 'good'.
The best campaigns that I have played in (and run) had
clearly divided lines between good and evil. Many times
the players had to make decisions that were in the gray,
but they had to live with them. I treated my campaign
as a morality play. IMHO such a campaign can teach
the players about their own moral state.
I have also participated in games that were thinly
disguised excuses to explore the 'evil' side of
our personalities. I did not enjoy these games and
quickly stopped playing them.
Finally, there was a short discussion about Tolkien
and CS Lewis (a famous Christian writer). My
understanding is that they were friends, but they
eventually came to a major disagreement. About
that time CS Lewis wrote the Narnia series in
response to Tolkien's work. Lewis was trying
to present Christianity in a different way. If you
have read the books and not seen the Christian message
read them again.
When my wife and I have children, I will introduce
them to Narnia (books and PBS series we taped).
Later when they are well founded in the Christian
faith (10-12) I will introduce them to Tolkien's
wonderful world. If they show any interest I
will happily run a campaign for them.
Just a few thoughts on this topic. Please
remember that the TV preachers do not
represent all of us.
David Tannen
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and
only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not
perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
tan...@source.asset.com
Ryan Biggs
` the fact that "Demons" and "Devils" were not put into the Monstrous
` Compendium. The arguement for this (coming from some issue of Dragon I
` have buried under later issues) was that one of the main associations
` people made with Satanism and AD&D were the devils and demons listed in the
` Monster Manual. By taking them out, TSR hoped to reduce the flack they
` were getting from the "angry parents." Naturally, it didn't work because
` the association had already been made.
True, but T$R didn't totally cave in to demand. They did eventually release
the creatures, under a new name. It was good though to chage the name. It
gets rid of the undertones that came along with it. It also makes exciting
creatures sound exciting. I'm not sure which dragon issue you are referring
to, but I remember the editorial you are referring to. There is also another
good pro-demon editorial in issue #157 by good old Roger. It is quite well
written (as was his editiorial in an earlier one, about D&D and insanity) The
title is really good too.... "Ten Good Things About Demons" And the points he
makes are very valid.
--
Ryan Biggs rya...@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Vos MC
: >: >Tolkien worshipped Eru because he wrote about Middle Earth? (Actually,
: >: >by their logic, I guess they'd claim he worshipped Morgoth.)
: >:
: >: No, they'd claim he worshipped Satan. And you WILL find people who
: >: condemn RPGs also condemning Tolkien's books as "occult" (and therefore
: >: Satanic).
: >While, in fact, Tolkien was a christian. I believe most of the Inklings were.
: >Atleast C.S. Lewis (chronicles of Narnia writer, and Tolkien's best friend)
: >is know for his many books about christian topics.
:
: Which doesn't save Lewis from being smeared with the "occult-and-therefore-
: Satanic" label either. I have (stored away someplace) the tract
: "Dark Dungeons" by Chick Publications (who must have butchered entire
: forests with the sheer volume of their little comic-book style tracts)
: While it exhorts the reader to burn their D&D material (_NO_(tm), so
: maybe TSR could sue the bejeezuz out of them), a footnote adds something
: to th effect of "and occult books by J.R.R.Tolkien and C.S.Lewis".
: as I implied, some of the people in the anti-RPG crowd are pretty
: rabid fanatics.
This is really silly. C.S.Lewis is widely known in the christian community
(atleast my mother occasionally puts a book of him in my hands) and known
by lots of people who maybe have never heard of Narnia. He's probably (one of)
the most critically thinking christian writer(s). (Maybe that's the problem..)
I bet C.S.Lewis is a lot better christian than all of those witchhunters
together. And Tolkien probably too.
Great Greetings,
mcv. <><
David Tannen x8273
I did not see my post (here at my site) so I appologize if
this is a repeat.
gary van lingen
There can be no doubt that this is a blatant violation of the First
Commandment.
III MAGICAL POTIONS AND SPELLS
"A study of the spells usable by clerics will convey the main purpose of the
cleric...note that all spells must be spoken or read aloud...clerics can
employ a fair number of magic items including most potions, clerical and
"protection" scrolls, most rings, some wands, rods, and staves....." page 20
D&D Players Hand Book.
"Magic users draw upon arcane powers in order to exercise their
profession...He or she must memorize and prepare for the use of each spell,
and its casting makes it necessary to reabsorb the incantation by consulting
the proper book of spells..." page 25 D&D Players Handbook.
A. Ref. Use of "Magic and Spells": Scripture is quite clear that the use
of magic and spells is forbidden. It is looke upon by God as an
"Abomination" and must not be done by the Christian, even in a game.
Isaiah 47:9-15--"These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day;
the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in
spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. You
felt secure in your wickedness, you said, "No one sees me"; your wisdom and
your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, "I am, and there
is no one besides me." But evil shall come upon you, for which you cannot
atone; disaster shall fall upon you, which you will not be able to expiate;
and ruin sahll some on you suddenly, of which you know nothing. Stand fast
in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have laboured
from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed, perhaps you may
inspire terror; you are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand
forth and save you, those who divid the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who
at the new moons predict what shall befall you. Behold, they are like
stubble, the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the
power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit
before! Such to you are those with whom you have laboured, who have
trafficked with you from your youth; they wander about each in his own
direction; there is no one to save you."
Psalms 106: 34-39a---"They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord
commanded them, but they mingled with the nations and learned to do as they
did. They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They
sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out
innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters; whom they sacrificed
to the idols of Canann; and the land was polluted with blood. THus they
became unclean by their acts.
Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the magical
items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy water, garlic
and wolves bane. All of these are part of the ancient witchcraft practices
of the early civilization, as well as when Jesus walked the earth. Again
these are forbidden by the Lord.
Isaiah 3:18-23--"In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the
anklets, the headbands, and the crescents, the pendants, the bracelets, and
the scarfs, the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the prefume boxes, and
the amulets; the signet rigns and nose rings; the festal robes, the mantles,
the cloaks, and the handbags, the garments of gauze, the linen garments, the
turbans, and the veils."
C. Ref. "spell books": Today you can enter any hobby store and purchase
books on spell casting. One book written by Philip Emmons Isaac Bonewits,
the only person to have a B.A. from University of California in magic,
_Authentic Thaumaturgy-A Professional Occultist on Improving the Realism Of
magic Systems used in Fantasy STimulation Games._ D&D books themselves
contain spells ranging from blessings ("to increase the strength of an
individual"0, to augury (divination-"spell seeks to divine whether an action
in the immediate future will be for the benefit of or harmful to the
party"), to commune (contacting of his or her divinity), to speak with the
dead (necromantic), to raising from the dead as well as the Resurrection
(which is a spell that is able to restore life and complete strength to the
person). All of these spells are found on pages 43-53 of D&D Players Guide.
Leviticus 19:26a---" You shall not practice augury or witchcraft."
D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood.
Ephesians 5:6--"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it si
because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of
disobedience." If you believe it is just a game, then to use the owrds
would be foolish and not to be done.
E. Ref. "Draw upon arcane powers": "Cleric spells, including the druidic,
are bestowed by the gods....". Pg. 40 D&D Players Handbook. The books
themselves openly admit that the source and origin of the power is not from
God but from something/somewhere else.
II Thessalonians 2:9-10---"The coming of the lawless one by the
activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretend signs and wonders,
and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they
refused to love the truth and so be saved."
Satan has these types of powers and uses them to keep people from
knowing the truth. To know the truth is to know Jesus Christ as your Lord
and Saviour and to spend time studying his word. To live a life that
totally trusts on Him for all that you need. A real problem for the
Christian is that in requestion spells, or recuperating from a spell, you
are to pray and meditate. Realize who you are praying to.
F. Ref. "prayer": "Clerical spells...are bestowed by the gods, so that the
cleric need but pray for a few hours...." pg. 40 D&D Players Handbook.
"CLeric desires third through fifth level spells, the minions (angels,
demigods, or whatever) will be likely to require the cleric to spend some 2
to 8 days in prayer, fasting, and contemplation of his or her
transgressions, making whatever sacrifices and atonement are necessary..."
pg. 38 Dungeon Master. "Spell recovery..requires about the same period of
time. In order to pray and meditate..." Pg. 39 Dungeon Master.
As Christians, we are commanded to pray. We are to "pray without
ceasing" (I Thess. 5:17), but we are to pray as Jesus taught us. We are to
pray only to God our Father, and ask for things in His name and according to
His will. Revelation 19:10--"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him,
but he said to me, "you must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you
and your brethern who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.""
Psalms 19:14---"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my
heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer."
Matthew 6:7--"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the
Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many word."
Matthew 21:22--"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if
you have faith."
Romans 10:1--"Brethern, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them
is that they may be saved."
Job 22:27--"you will make your prayer to him, and he will hear you;
and you will pay your vows."
Ephesians 6:18--"Pray at all times in the spirit, with all prayer
and suplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making
supplication for all the saints."
Spells and everything there connected are not for the Christian. May say
it is make believe and just fun and nothing will happen. When dealing with
a force stronger than you, Satan, you will have no guarantees except God. I
have talked to many people who are junkies, not one started off with the
idea of ending up a junky--all thought it would not happen to them--they
were different. They all underestimated the power of the drug.
G. Ref. "Conjure earth elementals" pg. 44 Dungeon Master
There is a satanic worship group that meets in Santa Barbara, and part of
their activities is to conjure up earth elementals. They do this by praying
and by using spells and "magical items".
I Samuel expressly forbids this type of action. The account of the witch of
Endor (I Samuel 28:7-20) states that any relationship of this nature is
action unbecoming to a child of God.
end of part 2, one more to go (but not today)
gary
His
Thomas Holeva
Point A) I have yet to see a gaming supplement that contains spells. Descriptions of effects, yes.
but never directions.
Point B) Why is it that the only people who seem to actually BELIEVE in magic are these radical
Christian groups?
It's funny....I've had long, drawn-out discussions of magic systems and game mechanics with
other GM's and players. But I have yet to encounter anyone who actually believes this stuff
is real except for the Bible thumpers. Science and music are enough magic for me.....
-Tom
Mary K. Kuhner
Proportionally speaking, very few roleplayers believe in magic, but a
lot of the people who believe in magic are roleplayers. (Reference:
Margot Adler's survey in _Drawing Down the Moon_, a study of paganism
in the US.)
I see extremely little similarity between magic as understood by actual
practicioners, and the rules of roleplaying games....
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Brent Irvine
>last line of part 1 repeated...
>A. Ref. Use of "Magic and Spells": Scripture is quite clear that the use
>of magic and spells is forbidden. It is looke upon by God as an
>"Abomination" and must not be done by the Christian, even in a game.
"even in a game" is *your* interpretation. The "game" you speak of is
interactive storytelling and is hardly distinguishable from a "head
session" when writers write a book.
Might i remind you also, that IT IS NOT REALITY! IT IS FANTASY! NO ONE
TAKES IT SO GOSH DARNED SERIOUSLY AS TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT MAGIC IS
REAL OR THE SETTING IS REAL!
Who has lost grip with reality?
[Isaiah 47:9-15]
Thank goodness no one on this bulletin board practices sorcery.
[Psalms 106: 34-39a]
Thank goodness no one here sacrifices their children.
>
>Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the magical
>items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy water, garlic
>and wolves bane. All of these are part of the ancient witchcraft practices
>of the early civilization, as well as when Jesus walked the earth. Again
>these are forbidden by the Lord.
No one has them. Sure, some of the games have them in it, therefore
people talk about it, but that is not a sin. DOING it may be, but talking
about it, no [in fact no one really WANTS to cast spells].
Get a grip and tune in to planet Earth -- there is a difference between
a story and reality (oh I forgot, usually the fundies that quote the Bible
out of context and to prove the wrong point tend to be unable to distinguish
between the two, hence book burning and other massive evils)
>Isaiah 3:18-23
Thank goodness we all don't take fashion too seriously!
[No it is NOT about magic items, it is about being a SLAVE to fashion!]
>C. Ref. "spell books": Today you can enter any hobby store and purchase
>books on spell casting. One book written by Philip Emmons Isaac Bonewits,
>the only person to have a B.A. from University of California in magic,
>_Authentic Thaumaturgy-A Professional Occultist on Improving the Realism Of
>magic Systems used in Fantasy STimulation Games._
Wow so a whacked out guy wrote an occult book to try to make the game
more to his liking! To then condemn all rpgs because one man writes
an occult book about it is like condemning all forms of language because
someone used a curse word near you.
BTW- *I* never heard of this. It is amazing what the wacked out fundies
come up with and research -- I have been playing rpg's for a LONG time
and I have NEVER heard of this book...
> D&D books themselves
>contain spells...
[stuff deleted]
Hello?!?!!? D&D books are not "How to.." manuals and do not tell you how
to cast spells and such. It is therefore NOT an occult item.
Again we see the inability to distinguish between fantasy and reality
from this wacked out fundie.
> Leviticus 19:26a---" You shall not practice augury or witchcraft."
Thank goodness no one here has ever cast a spell!
>D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
>be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood.
But not by players, their characters do (the players say nothing, just
say "My wizard casts a fireball"). Get a grip and tune into reality:
no one casts spells or even utters the words of them (had you
ACTUALLY read the Players Guides you would realize all the 'spell lists'
do is list the spells available to your character, not how to cast them,
or what the 'magic words' are)
> Ephesians 5:6--"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it si
>because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of
>disobedience." If you believe it is just a game, then to use the owrds
>would be foolish and not to be done.
Huh? If you are referring to spellcasting: NO ONE DOES AND THE "WORDS"
TO THE "SPELLS" (which are made-up BTW) ARE NOT IN THE BOOK AND DO NOT
EXIST!!!!
You are getting me torqued since it is obvious that you know NOTHING about
the game and less about the Bible since most of your quotes are
completely out of context and used to support an untenable philosophy!
>E. Ref. "Draw upon arcane powers": "Cleric spells, including the druidic,
>are bestowed by the gods....". Pg. 40 D&D Players Handbook. The books
>themselves openly admit that the source and origin of the power is not from
>God but from something/somewhere else.
BUT IT IS NOT REAL POWER AND NO ONE BELIEVS IT SO. THE GAME IS WHAT YOU MAK
IT! You can run a Christian campaign if you want with all the characters
beiung Christian and no Magic Users (or them as only the enemy). ITS
JUST A GAME.
NO ONE IS GETTIN G POWER FROM ANYONE!
> II Thessalonians 2:9-10---"The coming of the lawless one by the
>activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretend signs and wonders,
>and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they
>refused to love the truth and so be saved."
WHat does this have to do with RPG's -- OH! WAITASEC, its one of your
out-of-context quotes to give "weight" to your words sort of like "Well,
if you don't believe the swill i am serving then you are in big trouble! nyah!"
> Satan has these types of powers and uses them to keep people from
>knowing the truth. To know the truth is to know Jesus Christ as your Lord
>and Saviour and to spend time studying his word. To live a life that
Satan is the master of deception. From your mis-use of quotes and
diatribes against what you don't know, you are contributing to
the cause of ignorance and deception- two of Satan's tools, so before
condemning anything else I would rather you do some research (and unbiased
at that if it is possible...).
>totally trusts on Him for all that you need. A real problem for the
>Christian is that in requestion spells, or recuperating from a spell, you
>are to pray and meditate. Realize who you are praying to.
I am a devout Christian and I play rpg's when I can. My characters are
not me, they are like characters i read about in a book and I 'play them'
because it is entertaining (sometimes boring though...:)). I do not
pray to pagan gods, nor do *I* cast spells or delve into the occult, my
characters do (I do not even know the first thing about the occult).
I suggest that you take a deep breath and concentrate on the differences
between the game's fantasy and reality!
> As Christians, we are commanded to pray. We are to "pray without
>ceasing" (I Thess. 5:17), but we are to pray as Jesus taught us. We are to
>pray only to God our Father, and ask for things in His name and according to
>His will. Revelation 19:10--"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him,
>but he said to me, "you must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you
>and your brethern who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.""
The CHARACTERS pray, We do not(well we *do* to God, but not the pagan
dieties that arer made-up ones).
>Spells and everything there connected are not for the Christian. May say
>it is make believe and just fun and nothing will happen. When dealing with
>a force stronger than you, Satan, you will have no guarantees except God. I
>have talked to many people who are junkies, not one started off with the
>idea of ending up a junky--all thought it would not happen to them--they
>were different. They all underestimated the power of the drug.
This is not a drug any more than getting together with friends every
Saturday Afternoon and seeing a movie or playing cards.
>G. Ref. "Conjure earth elementals" pg. 44 Dungeon Master
>There is a satanic worship group that meets in Santa Barbara, and part of
>their activities is to conjure up earth elementals. They do this by praying
>and by using spells and "magical items".
Whoopee-do! I do not and do not think that they are right in doing that,
but it has NOTHING to do with D&D!
>I Samuel expressly forbids this type of action. The account of the witch of
>Endor (I Samuel 28:7-20) states that any relationship of this nature is
>action unbecoming to a child of God.
Yup. Thank goodness no D&Der from here has done that.
>gary
DOn't bother gary.
It sounds like you need to be able to distingusih between fiction and reality.
From a fellow Christian: learn what the quotes in the Bible MEAN before you
parrot them!
John Cooper
>But to the main point here, RPG's and Satan/Evil. I
>think that imagination is one of the gifts God gives
>each of us. How we use that gift determines if it is
>'evil' or 'good'.
I wish this were a universally held view of the "imagination" among
Christians, but is is not. My girlfriend's parents believe that indulging
in your imagination "distracts" you from the one pursuit that should be
the most important to you: reaching the ideal, loving relationship with
Christ. Anything that is not directed toward basic survival (job, eating,
sleeping, etc.) is in some way a distraction that you should strive to
avoid. Furthermore, when you indulge in fantasy, you are creating little
worlds in which to distract yourself, and that is akin to playing God
(a real no-no). Of course, they aren't *this* devoted (though they feel
they should be), but they will tell you that this is because they aren't
perfect, only human (only one being in the universe is perfect).
These folks do not go to movies, or watch movies on TV. When they read,
they read from the Bible or some religious-heavy novel that in some way
reinforces the tennants of their faith. If you feel that entertainment
is necessary to keep from going mad, then you are lacking in something
essential to the "true" human: a proper relationship with the Lord.
I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see my girlfriend (who loves
fantasy fiction and RPGs, and wants to become a writer herself) suffer
from a complete lack of support and encouragement from her parents (her
father in particular who she looks up to). Her accomplishments so far
(a piece of vampire fiction as her thesis for her MA in literature and
an upcoming RPG supplement co-authored with myself) meet with derision.
Generally, they react with distant indifference, but sometimes they
come out and ask her why she is wasting her talent on such "garbage."
It does no good for her to try and explain that she is using her
imagination and that this is somehow a Good Thing. To them, the
imagination is the tool of the idle mind that is seeking wasteful
distraction from the Lord.
Her mother believed in all the anti-RPG nonsense when she heard about
it, but I think she is now just heavily skeptical of our hobby (instead
of fearfully disapproving of it) after having spoken with us about some
of the facts. Just the same, it is seen as a wasteful pursuit at best
(and a dangerous one if it distracts you from the Lord for too long).
Trust me, one does not have to declare a religious war on RPGs in order
to negatively affect it. Imagine if her parents had managed to convince
her not to play these games or write gaming material. We might have lost
the contribution of her talents to our hobby. Granted she isn't a big
name in the industry, but even us little guys matter (at least, I like
to think so), and every potential gamer who is turned off from our hobby
because of parental ignorance and fear, is a tragic loss IMO.
Had to get that off my chest.
Thanks for the therapy session, :-)
-John
P. Steele
In article <93160.12...@CUNYVM.BITNET>, TimeLord <X4...@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
> Tolkien's elves (that was one of the main sources for TSR elves, right?)
> were completely immune to disease and similar stuff-they could only be
> physically damaged (I stil wonder if Tolkien's immortal elves can die of
> starvation). This was a gift from Illuvatar, I think...
Well flame if I'm wrong but I'm sure I remember a story in the Silmarilion where
an elf was bound to a rock face by his wrist for years and just left there.
Eventually someone came rescue him and he was find except for the mental torture,
and having to lose his hand. There was I seem to remeber no mention of anyone
bringing him food for the time he was there.
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.S...@ncl.ac.uk |
gary van lingen
articles on the net because interest was expressed in them. I am not the
author of these articles, I am merely the copyist. I play too and I have
had my share of negative reactions too. But when people wonder why these
right wing groups do not like us, I felt it would be of value to put these
articles on the net.
SO THE NEXT TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO FLAME ME AS IF I ACTUALLY WERE THE AUTHOR
OF THESE PIECES, THINK AGAIN.
I will continue to put these on for the edification of those who have not
met such reactions from the right wingers of the world despite other
people's responses. I would like apologies mind you but I will forgive (it
is, after all, THE CHRISTIAN THING TO DO as far as I am a Christian ;-)).
I JUST WISH PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER THIS REASON FOR THESE ARTICLES GOING ON
THE NET. I WILL HENCEFORTH PUBLISH DISCLAIMERS AT THE BEGINNING OF ALL
FURTHER POSTS AND IF ----ANYONE-----MISTAKES ME AS AUTHOR AGAIN THEN THEY
ARE AT FAULT.
enough said
in service to gamin
gary van lingen
gvan...@mach1.wlu.ca
Lee Short
In article <COVIN.93J...@zinnia.cs.uchicago.edu> David Covin writes:
>In article <35...@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> le...@asf.com (Lee Short) writes:
>
> In article <1993Jun4.0...@cnsvax.uwec.edu> schi...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
> >
> >Here is my opinion. D&D is(was) a rather unique game in that it (if played
> >right) challenges you to re-evaluate the concept of right and wrong.
>
> Pardon me? I don't see how the view of morality presented in D&D
> could *possibly* challenge anyone to re-evaluate the concept of right
> and wrong.
>
>Hm. Well, the previous poster didn't say, for instance "the D&D
>alignment system challenges you to re-evaluate..." etc. The bit that
>you quoted says "D&D ... *if* *played* *right* challenges you..."
>(emphasis, obviously, mine).
Yes, I realize that the "if played right" could mean anything up to
and including throwing out all of the D&D rules and playing GURPS.
However, for reasons I give below, I think the original poster was
referring to the alignment system.
>
>Which is to say, it is possible to set up a D&D game which challenges
>its players to re-evaluate their conceptions of right and wrong. And
>the poster you responded to believes that this is the *right* way to
>play D&D (maybe).
>
>Is that more reasonable?
Yes it's much more reasonable, but I fail to see how this could
possibly be D&D-specific; it should apply to all rpgs. I don't see
how this can be reconciled with "D&D is a rather unique game". I
don't see *anything* about D&D related to the matter of morality which
could possibly be considered unique, other than the alignment system.
And he said something like "no other game has morality as a core
element." If this isn't referring to the alignment system, what is it
referring to? If it's referring to the moral challenges set before
the players by the GM, this is not D&D specific and could be done in
any rpg.
>
> (2) An alignment is a fundamental part of someone's morality. The
> alignment itself is considered in determining their actions. For
> example: Judy is Neutral Good. Judy actively considers her alignment
> when evaluating potential courses of action. "I'm Neutral Good, so I
> shouldn't/won't/can't pocket this gold watch I found on the street --
> I will go and turn it in to the police." This is decidedly different
> from (1), where Judy would think "I don't believe in taking the
> possessions of others, so I will go and turn it in to the police."
> If you believe that this is a reasonable theory of morality, I
> have nothing more to say to you.
>
>Do you also leave movie theaters when you hear characters say things
>like "I am a [samurai/roman/klingon]; I will die honorably in battle,
>not on my knees like a dog"? Or "I am a [jew/christian/moslem]; I
>will not bow down before false idols" ?
Please explain how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. The
original poster claimed (in my interpretation) that the D&D alignment
system led one to rethink one's concepts of morality *in real life*.
I claimed that, *in real life*, no one thinks about morality in the
way that the D&D alignment system would lead one to believe.
>
>What's wrong with using a codified system of morality which a
>character has taken to be an important part of his or her identity,
>to help decide the character's actions?
Nothing is *horribly* wrong with this in an rpg -- though I personally
prefer not to have my character's morality forcibly pigeonholed in
this manner. However, *in real life* (as the original post discussed),
this is an excessively simplistic view of morality.
>
>I find it unreasonable that D&D requires *all* characters to have
>such rigidly defined moral codes, and that it penalizes them so
>heavily for any changes or character growth.
We agree here.
[various sensible stuff deleted]
>So I find the D&D system a very limited system of morality, which
>misses many things that I consider important and interesting. But
>I do not find the example that you gave so very unreasonable.
Perhaps you missed what I am objecting to: that the original poster
thought that D&D gave insight into real-life morality. Given that you
and I both agree that the D&D system of morality is sufficient (ok,
not really sufficient but acceptable) for describing the moral
perspectives of some but not all characters, it would appear that you
agree with me that it is clearly flawed as a real-life theory of
morality. Any theory of morality which does OK in some circumstances
but falls neatly and cleanly upon its face in others will be laughed
out of any philosophical discussion. That's what I meant when I said
> If you believe that this is a reasonable theory of morality, I
> have nothing more to say to you.
Lee
Lee Short le...@asf.com Man is a credulous animal, and must believe
Software Janitor *something*; in the absence of good grounds
Hughes Training, Inc. for belief, he will be satisfied with bad
Minneapolis, MN ones. -- Bertrand Russell
Dave Sherohman
challenge and one speaks...
In article <C8F87...@mach1.wlu.ca> gvan...@mach1.wlu.ca (gary van lingen) writes:
>A. Ref. Use of "Magic and Spells": Scripture is quite clear that the use
>of magic and spells is forbidden. It is looke upon by God as an
>"Abomination" and must not be done by the Christian, even in a game.
On what basis do you state that God is against such things "even in a game"?
>Isaiah 47:9-15--"These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day;
Nice passage, but all I see there is that God is more powerful than any
sorceries. Now, I know that there are other passages which address the
issue directly; why didn't you use one of them?
> Psalms 106: 34-39a---"They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord
I certainly hope you don't mean to imply that anyone here practices blood
magic. Offhand, I only know of one game (Shadowrun) which includes the
existence of blood magic - and they leave it very vague and make it very
clear that while _preventing_ a blood ritual can be a good plot device,
player characters should _never_ even be able to come close to learning the
secrets of performing blood magic.
>
>Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the magical
>items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy water, garlic
Wait a minute - you attack role-playing games because some of them include
the imaginary use of fictitious holy water, but don't attack the Roman
Catholic Church for using "real" holy water in actual ceremonies? Are you
being selective in your targets, or do you also go after Catholics separately?
>Isaiah 3:18-23--"In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the
So God is also against scarves, sashes, rings, robes, all other jewelry and
most other clothing, right?
>
>C. Ref. "spell books": Today you can enter any hobby store and purchase
I wouldn't exactly say "any" hobby store. From what I've heard (never
actually cared enough to look for it myself), Bonewits is practically
impossible to find.
>magic Systems used in Fantasy STimulation Games._ D&D books themselves
>contain spells ranging from blessings ("to increase the strength of an
Actually, you are incorrect. The D&D books contain descriptions of spell
effects; they do not contain anything that even comes close to being a
description of how to produce these effects.
>D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
>be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood.
> Ephesians 5:6--"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it si
>because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of
>disobedience." If you believe it is just a game, then to use the owrds
>would be foolish and not to be done.
Excuse me, but the CHARACTER says the words, not the PLAYER. The only words
I (while playing a Shadowrun mage) say are, "I'm casting a Mana Bolt at the
guy on the left." I let the (imaginary) mage work out the (fictitious) words
and gestures on his own.
>
>E. Ref. "Draw upon arcane powers": "Cleric spells, including the druidic,
>are bestowed by the gods....". Pg. 40 D&D Players Handbook. The books
> II Thessalonians 2:9-10---"The coming of the lawless one by the
>activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretend signs and wonders,
So what's the problem with the signs and wonders being "pretend"? The
_entire_ _game_ is just "pretend"...
>totally trusts on Him for all that you need. A real problem for the
>Christian is that in requestion spells, or recuperating from a spell, you
>are to pray and meditate. Realize who you are praying to.
Again, the CHARACTER prays and meditates, not the PLAYER. The player just
announces which spells he wants his character to request and (assuming there
aren't any (game-world) interruptions) the gamemaster marks off the passage
of a few hours of "pray[er] and meditat[ion]" and the game continues a few
(real-world) seconds later.
>
>F. Ref. "prayer": "Clerical spells...are bestowed by the gods, so that the
>ceasing" (I Thess. 5:17), but we are to pray as Jesus taught us. We are to
>pray only to God our Father, and ask for things in His name and according to
Review previous point. The player does _not_ pray for spells, only the
character does.
>
>Spells and everything there connected are not for the Christian. May say
>it is make believe and just fun and nothing will happen. When dealing with
>a force stronger than you, Satan, you will have no guarantees except God. I
I question your theology here. As a Christian, I am more powerful than
Satan provided I don't allow him to overcome me. (1 Cor 10:13 - "God is
faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.")
>were different. They all underestimated the power of the drug.
Minor difference between role-players and "junkys" - the percentage of role-
players addicted to gaming is infinitesmal (if not zero) compared to the
percentage of "junkys" addicted to drugs. Also, gaming is an intellectual
exercise, and thus (spiritual considerations aside) _undeniably_ has a positive
effect upon the gamer's health (except in cases where other responsibilities
are neglected in favor of gaming - this is, however, the fault of the
irresponsible gamer, not of the game). Drugs disrupt the normal functioning
of the body and as such are inherently detrimental to the user's health.
>
>G. Ref. "Conjure earth elementals" pg. 44 Dungeon Master
>There is a satanic worship group that meets in Santa Barbara, and part of
>their activities is to conjure up earth elementals. They do this by praying
>and by using spells and "magical items".
If you've read Mike Warneke's (sp?) autobiography, _The Satan Seller_, you may
recall that the satanic group he was involved with used sex both as a
recruiting tool and as a part of their worship. Are you going to also say that
sex is inherently evil? (If so, your theology is even further out of line than
I thought!)
Gary, if you really want to take a stab at role-playing games, I have a
couple suggestions:
1) Go after them on grounds other than magic. A lot of people dispute the
relevance of magic in the real world, and even if it was universally accepted,
not all games contain supernetural elements in any form. Try violence - it's
present in every game that I know of, and there are very few people who would
try to argue that murder is a socially acceptable pastime.
2) Understand the distinction between player actions and character actions so
the rest of us don't have to waste our time telling you that just because
casting a certain spell requires the incantation of a certain phrase, none of
us are going to know what that phrase is, even if our characters have cast the
associated spell hundreds of times.
3) D&D doesn't have a very detailed magic system to attack. Try something
like Shadowrun, which not only tells what effects a spell has, but also has
explanations of how (in the game world) spells operate. It also has a magic
supplement named _The Grimoire_ and subtitled _The Manual of Pratical
Thaumaturgy, 15th Edition, 2053_ - if noting else, it sounds a lot more like
a real spell book than _Player's Handbook, Second Edition_ for AD&D.
Fact of the matter is, though, you're not likely to convince many more people
(if any more) with my suggestions than you're convincing without them. Have
to admire your courage though, attacking RPGs here...
Dave Sherohman
>Might i remind you also, that IT IS NOT REALITY! IT IS FANTASY! NO ONE
>TAKES IT SO GOSH DARNED SERIOUSLY AS TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT MAGIC IS
>REAL OR THE SETTING IS REAL!
Watch your generalizations. There are some of us who believe in magic. I
don't know about rgf.*, but there are those on the net who even practice it.
>
>Thank goodness no one on this bulletin board practices sorcery.
>
>Thank goodness no one here sacrifices their children.
I'd say this is a fairly safe statement, though...
>Thank goodness we all don't take fashion too seriously!
>[No it is NOT about magic items, it is about being a SLAVE to fashion!]
Good point; I wish I'd made it.
>
>BTW- *I* never heard of this. It is amazing what the wacked out fundies
>come up with and research -- I have been playing rpg's for a LONG time
>and I have NEVER heard of this book...
Bonewits also published a game based on _Authentic Thaumaturgy_ (I don't
recall the name offhand); both are extremely rare and occasionally we'll get
someone on rgf.* looking for them.
>
>You are getting me torqued since it is obvious that you know NOTHING about
>the game and less about the Bible since most of your quotes are
>completely out of context and used to support an untenable philosophy!
Actually, he's using them to support an overextended philosophy. Biblically,
it is fairly clear that we are not to practice magic. However, there is little
to no evidence that playing RPGs is equivalent to practicing any of the actions
contained within the game world.
Brent Irvine
I am sorry for my lengthy diatribe - had I known you were NOT the author
the tone would have been VERY different.
I humbly apologize,
Pax,
Brent Irvine
Brent Irvine
I couldn't retract my ULTRAFLAME to this guy. I really am sorry and
had I known that this was for information rather than this guy's
personal beliefs I probably would just have filed it away instead
of doing this flame.
I also made the mistake of doing "rn" while angry (I had a bad day)
and was a bit quick to hit that "F" key. I should have waited until
the morning to reply (but I didn't even realize my anger until I
snapped and it was too late).
Anyway, I sincerely apologize unreservedly and sincerely hope that
it is accepted both to its intended recipient and the newsgroup
itself!
(Word of warning: Never post while angry! :) )
Humbly (embarrased smiley--> 8-/ )
John H Bogan
that RPGs are part of the 'Satan Conspiracy' among other things,
I'd like to make clear that I in no way meant to imply that
all or even most Christians believe what I characterized the
anti-RPG set as believing. I need look no further than my regular
gaming group to verify that strongly-believing Christians find
no problem with gaming.
My comments were meant to describe a particularly vocal and active
subset of SOME Christian denominations. I would have made this
clear earlier, but my system was bouncing my posts for some reason.
I don't know if Gary van Lingen believes what he posted or was
simply copying arguments made by others, as I only have the second
part of his post, but it is exactly the sort of nonsense I was
talking about.
In article <C8F87...@mach1.wlu.ca> gvan...@mach1.wlu.ca (gary van lingen) writes:
>last line of part 1 repeated...
>
>There can be no doubt that this is a blatant violation of the First
>Commandment.
>
>III MAGICAL POTIONS AND SPELLS
A: [references from D&D books deleted]
B: [Biblical quotes alledgedly proscribing said references deleted]
repeat A
repeat B
repeat A again
repeat B again
repeat A again^2
repeat B again^2
...and A & B again several more times
>Spells and everything there connected are not for the Christian. May say
>it is make believe and just fun and nothing will happen. When dealing with
>a force stronger than you, Satan, you will have no guarantees except God. I
>have talked to many people who are junkies, not one started off with the
>idea of ending up a junky--all thought it would not happen to them--they
>were different. They all underestimated the power of the drug.
In other words, if people ignore you as a crackpot, never consider
that they may be right, just redouble your efforts in the war on Satan.
You see through his lies.
:-P
This is why it's almost impossible to rationally discuss the issue
with this set, they have a fallback position that is impossible for
you to assail. All you can do is make them spell out their positions
so that more reasonable people of ANY religious stripe can see where
the anti-RPGers are really coming from.
Regarding the book by Bonewits, I _have_ seen it mentioned before,
but only by BADD and other anti-RPGers. I'd love to actually see
it. I'm not a neo-pagan or witch or anything along those lines,
but from what I know of their beliefs, most RPG's (and D&D especially)
seem rather BAD at representing their beliefs.
Of course, to those like the author of the material in the
article in question, it's all Satan anyway, so any difference
is moot.
THIS is the crowd I was talking about.
John H Bogan
Patrick Maslen
Dark Sun, the Forgotten Realms and co. Nehwon, the world of Fafhrd and
the Grey Mouser, seems to be (one of) the forgotten members of T$R's
"multiverse."
I have been running a variant of this world myself, drawing detailed
maps (if you know about the map in Lankhmar, you know why), but I don't
use it quite as per the T$R interpretation. For example, I don't use the
limited magic rules, partly because I disagreed with that
interpretation of the Fritz Lieber books, partly because my players made
a big fuss, and partly because the magic rules don't work too well in
2nd Ed anyway. Nehwon interests me, but I wonder what other people have
thought of this world?
Patrick
ns...@aurora.alaska.edu
One mans magic, is another mans miricles, and another persons science..
Or how the quote go, science of sophicient sophistication is ... from magic..
can't remember the total quote, but I think you all get the idea..
Morgoth the Mad lives in Rogue AIs everywhere!
Ioannis Fikouras
: Does anyone use Nehwon as their D&D world? I read a lot of stuff about
: Patrick
:
Yeah
I have playied in this setting , the DM not only droped the silly magic
limitations , but reinforced black wizards aswell (to justify the
aura of fear that chases them around) I played one such wizard,
I must confess It was fun , I enjoyed it being real mean and selfish
but not outright evil (I was the one that always survived to drag
the charred bodies away) Its a very nice setting with lots of
possibilities.
--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
David Seal
writes:
>I JUST WISH PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER THIS REASON FOR THESE ARTICLES GOING ON
>THE NET. I WILL HENCEFORTH PUBLISH DISCLAIMERS AT THE BEGINNING OF ALL
>FURTHER POSTS AND IF ----ANYONE-----MISTAKES ME AS AUTHOR AGAIN THEN THEY
>ARE AT FAULT.
A very good idea. Something *you've* got to remember: not everyone sees
every article on the net. I don't remember seeing any earlier article from
you about this subject. I know at least two possible reasons for this: our
news system became full at one point last week and some articles were lost,
and I sometimes have to skim through the newsgroups quite fast. There are
plenty of other possible reasons for people not having seen your previous
posting: for instance, there are bound to be people who have joined the
network since the previous posting.
Furthermore, network transport is unreliable. It is perfectly possible for
an article never to get to some parts of the net. It is possible for it to
take a month for an article to arrive. It is possible for you to post two
articles, one a day after the other, and for them to arrive in the opposite
order at some sites. I frequently see a follow-up to an article a day before
I see the article itself. I sometimes see follow-ups to an article, but
*never* see the original article. Etc., etc., etc.
In short, the *only* safe way to make certain that people see disclaimers is
to put them in the same article as the stuff you're disclaiming. If people
still don't pay attention to them, they are at fault, as you say. But your
reliance on people having seen whatever you said in some previous article
was mistaken.
David Seal
ds...@armltd.co.uk
All opinions are mine only...
John H Bogan
In article <1v8ubb$f...@max.physics.sunysb.edu> jbo...@ic.sunysb.edu (John H Bogan) writes:
> I don't know if Gary van Lingen believes what he posted or was
>simply copying arguments made by others, as I only have the second
>part of his post, but it is exactly the sort of nonsense I was
>talking about.
Well, I checked and now I know, gary was just reprinting. I
reposted his articles from r.g.f.dnd to r.g.f.misc since
.misc only got pt2 of the second article, which had no indication
that Gary was not the original author.
For the flamers, lay off him.
John H Bogan
jbo...@ic.sunysb.edu
Vos MC
Gary, I think you're having trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality.
(Who ever got the idea that especially gamers would have trouble with that?
After 11 years of gaming, I doubt it's possible to have a much more solid
border between fantasy and reality than I do.)
Great Greetings,
mcv. <>< <- note!
Vos MC
:
:
: Point A) I have yet to see a gaming supplement that contains spells. Descriptions of effects, yes.
: but never directions.
Very true. And if they would contain them, it's still the characters that do
it, not the players. AD&D tell when a spell has a verbal component, because
if the wizard is gagged somehow, he can't talk. Who's interested in what it
exactly is that the wizard should say?
:
: Point B) Why is it that the only people who seem to actually BELIEVE in magic are these radical
: Christian groups?
I'm not exactly _radical_ (well, in a sense, the whole idea of christianity
is quite radical. Who would ever believe that a god would die for his people
out of love, while they only betray him?), atleast not in the sense that I
condemn gaming. (I've been in the hobby for 11 years.) But I _do_ believe
there's a lot more between heaven and earth than we see. A lot of it is not
to be meddled with. But my characters in the game live in an entirely
different world, with other laws of physics and such, and probably also other
astral/spiritual/magical/satanic/whatever things. My characters aren't
necesarily christians. It's quite unlikely they would be, because that
world would probably have entirely different religion (all just maked up,
nothing real, and probably not even much worship from the character's side,
let alone the players) and history. And gods, and whatever. And magic works.
(Or works differently, if you like).
It's all fantasy.
: It's funny....I've had long, drawn-out discussions of magic systems and game mechanics with
: other GM's and players. But I have yet to encounter anyone who actually believes this stuff
: is real except for the Bible thumpers. Science and music are enough magic for me.....
Great Greetings,
mcv. <><
Felis Lynx
[ In response to a response of the "article" ]
>
>One mans magic, is another mans miricles, and another persons science..
>
>
>Or how the quote go, science of sophicient sophistication is ... from magic..
>
>can't remember the total quote, but I think you all get the idea..
>
>Morgoth the Mad lives in Rogue AIs everywhere!
>
Don't remember the exact quote either, but this was what was going through
my mind during the whole article. Wouldn't people back in "biblical"
times consider most of us witches and heathens for what we wear and what
we are able to accomplish with these modern devices? How are we to know
that these devices aren't of the devil? (tongue-in-cheek-mode, btw)
How do we know that we aren't going to hell because of using these devilish
things? And why can't we believe in a time when man will learn more about
his environs to be able to do stuff that would seem like magic to us (or
at least those that know science and physics...)?
Felis Lynx
P.S. Come to think of it, I never exit tongue-in-cheek-mode....
Vos MC
: articles on the net because interest was expressed in them. I am not the
: author of these articles, I am merely the copyist. I play too and I have
: had my share of negative reactions too. But when people wonder why these
: right wing groups do not like us, I felt it would be of value to put these
: articles on the net.
I'm sorry. I didn't know. I retract anything I said to you, and tell anyone
who agrees with the text you posted that they have trouble distinguishing
reality from fantasy.
Great Greetings,
mcv. <><
(And please continue posting. Atleast if there's anything new said in those
articles. (Well, they mostly keep saying the same, all with the same mistake
(= fantasy is NOT reality). For the rest I can't do anything but agree with
them.))
Vos MC
: In article <C8FIp...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irv...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
: >Thank goodness no one here sacrifices their children.
:
: I'd say this is a fairly safe statement, though...
Supposing everyone here is still student... or not too much older..
Great Greetings,
mcv. <><
Tom Epperly
thing to pretend to do something in an imaginary world. To say that
magic, witchcraft, and whatever is evil in this world does not
necessarily imply that it is evil to imagine and roleplay in a world
where those things are not evil.
I am a Christian, and I believe that magic, witchcraft, and augury are
really evil in the real world. I believe in the inspiration of the
Bible, and I study it daily. I except Jesus Christ as my Lord and
Saviour. However, I have been a roleplayer for about 10 years, and I
have yet to see any evil influence in myself or any of my fellow
roleplayers caused by roleplaying. Your comments seem to indicate a
lack of understanding about how roleplaying actually occurs. In all
of the groups that I have been in, the players don't say magical
encantations, pray to other gods, or draw upon arcane powers. The
control an imaginary character in an imaginary world. Why don't you
try visiting a couple different gaming sessions and see what actually
occurs.
Tom
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Epperly University of Wisconsin-Madison Chemical Engineering
(608) 262-8264 epp...@osnome.che.wisc.edu Graduate Student
Member of the League for Programming Freedom(fighting software monopolies)
For more info contact me or l...@uunet.uu.net.
If you feel you must flame, please send email rather than posting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Seurer
|> >Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the magical
|> >items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy water, garlic
|> >and wolves bane. All of these are part of the ancient witchcraft practices
|> >of the early civilization, as well as when Jesus walked the earth. Again
|> >these are forbidden by the Lord.
|>
|> No one has them. Sure, some of the games have them in it, therefore
|> people talk about it, but that is not a sin. DOING it may be, but talking
|> about it, no [in fact no one really WANTS to cast spells].
Speak for yourself. I have both holy water (I'm Catholic, many of us do)
and garlic (I bet 75% of people have this in their kitchens) at home.
Why would the Lord forbid us to have holy water or garlic? Goodness. All
those poor Italian people who use lots of garlic are doomed.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Internet: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com America On-Line: BillS...@aol.com
Tom Gillman
>In article <C8FIp...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irv...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>>Might i remind you also, that IT IS NOT REALITY! IT IS FANTASY! NO ONE
>>TAKES IT SO GOSH DARNED SERIOUSLY AS TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT MAGIC IS
>>REAL OR THE SETTING IS REAL!
>Watch your generalizations. There are some of us who believe in magic. I
>don't know about rgf.*, but there are those on the net who even practice it.
Yep......every time I write a program, and it compiles :-)
--
Tom Gillman, Systems Programmer | "If nobody else was violent, I could
Wells Computer Center-Ga. State Univ. | conquer the whole stupid planet with
(404) 651-4503 sys...@gsusgi2.gsu.edu | a butter knife" -- Dogbert
GSU doesn't care what I say on the Internet, why should you?
bra...@cc.usu.edu
>
> I JUST WISH PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER THIS REASON FOR THESE ARTICLES GOING ON
> THE NET. I WILL HENCEFORTH PUBLISH DISCLAIMERS AT THE BEGINNING OF ALL
> FURTHER POSTS AND IF ----ANYONE-----MISTAKES ME AS AUTHOR AGAIN THEN THEY
> ARE AT FAULT.
good idea, I caught your second post, missing the first (with the
disclaimer). I was about to type in a hell bent flame, when I noticed that
this was part 2. Out of curiosity to see part 1 I moved to r.g.f.dnd (the
first was not cross posted) And only then did I see your disclaimer. I would
point out that when posting any type of quoted article, it is common ettiquette
(sp) to have an 'intro' and then some type of separator (eg, a line) and then
the actual text...
chuck waterman
>My girlfriend's parents believe that indulging in your imagination "distracts"
>you from the one pursuit that should be the most important to you: reaching the
>ideal, loving relationship with Christ. Anything that is not directed toward
>basic survival (job, eating, sleeping, etc.) is in some way a distraction that
>you should strive to avoid.
>These folks do not go to movies, or watch movies on TV. When they read,
>they read from the Bible or some religious-heavy novel that in some way
>reinforces the tennants of their faith. If you feel that entertainment
>is necessary to keep from going mad, then you are lacking in something
>essential to the "true" human: a proper relationship with the Lord.
.....
>Just the same, it is seen as a wasteful pursuit at best
>(and a dangerous one if it distracts you from the Lord for too long).
....
Hi! I'm a Christian who enjoys fantasy roleplaying (been into it since there
were just three little books). I DON'T find AD&D (/D&D, /AD&D 2nd ed, etc.)
to be a wholesome game, BUT>>>>>>>>> let's not get into that at the moment.
My point in jotting this note is that I have recently read a book on what I
feel is a long neglected subject - how "committed" Christians should respond
to popular culture. I would heartily recommend you suggest it to any Christian
(parent or otherwise) who you feel "damns" frp-ing in general, or without
thoroughly considering waht it is that is bugging them! And for these
particular folks it would be especially helpful, as it warns Christians against
isolating themselves to "Christian pop culture" and insulating themselves from
the world. How can one be an effective witness if one refuses involvement in
one's culture? The better approach is to be DISCERNING - that is, become aware
of what exists in popular culture, and refuse to accept culture that is
mediocre just because it is Christian, and refuse to reject a "worldly" piece
of culture if it is finely crafted AND uplifts the higher values of a society,
even if they are not pro-Christian values. Even if a piece promotes a morality
or theology contrary to Christianity, a Christian has a responsibility and
POWER as a consumer to BUY cultural products that are well made, and NOT buy
cultural products that aren't. In this way a Christian becomes part of the
market that publishers, film producers, and, yes, game manufacturers like TSR
are trying to serve. ( If a Christian buys nothing of popular culture, he has
decided not to vote this year, and given up his power).
Anyway, if this doesn't make sense, get a copy of TURN BACK THE NIGHT by
Stephen Lawhead. (Mr. Lawhead by the way is a "committed" Christian, and has
written 8 or nine novels including 2 fantasy trilogies, a two-volume space
fantasy, a science fiction novel, and is currently at work on the third book of
another fantasy trilogy. So he's writing from the inside of the business!)
Chuck from Albany.
PS Hope this helps your friend and her parents. I'll be happy to discuss my
ideas for a fun Christian RPG with anyone who emails me!
And if anyone insists, I'll explain why as a Christian I no longer feel its
appropriate to play D&D in any of its current forms, although I still love
and fully support the hobby of frping. My belief though, is that most
D&Ders are fanatic to their cause and won't really care to hear what they
will probably call the ramblings of another conservative oppressive religous
fanatic. (sigh).
David Covin
Yes, I realize that the "if played right" could mean anything up to
and including throwing out all of the D&D rules and playing GURPS.
I *like* that interpretation. :)
However, for reasons I give below, I think the original poster was
referring to the alignment system.
>
>Which is to say, it is possible to set up a D&D game which challenges
>its players to re-evaluate their conceptions of right and wrong. And
>the poster you responded to believes that this is the *right* way to
>play D&D (maybe).
>
>Is that more reasonable?
Yes it's much more reasonable, but I fail to see how this could
possibly be D&D-specific; it should apply to all rpgs. I don't see
how this can be reconciled with "D&D is a rather unique game".
Since the start of this thread was about D&D-bashing, and since the
media and folks who bash D&D tend to lump all rpgs together under the
single title "Dungeons and Dragons," I thought that perhaps the
original poster was also using "D&D" as shorthand for "role-playing
games."
I
don't see *anything* about D&D related to the matter of morality which
could possibly be considered unique, other than the alignment system.
And he said something like "no other game has morality as a core
element." If this isn't referring to the alignment system, what is it
referring to?
Perhaps you're right.
If it's referring to the moral challenges set before
the players by the GM, this is not D&D specific and could be done in
any rpg.
Yes. I didn't think the original quote was meant to be D&D specific.
But perhaps it was.
>Do you also leave movie theaters when you hear characters say things
>like "I am a [samurai/roman/klingon]; I will die honorably in battle,
>not on my knees like a dog"? Or "I am a [jew/christian/moslem]; I
>will not bow down before false idols" ?
Please explain how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. The
original poster claimed (in my interpretation) that the D&D alignment
system led one to rethink one's concepts of morality *in real life*.
I claimed that, *in real life*, no one thinks about morality in the
way that the D&D alignment system would lead one to believe.
These were intended to be *examples* of people thinking about morality
"in the way that they D&D alignment system would lead one to believe."
That is:
>What's wrong with using a codified system of morality which a
>character has taken to be an important part of his or her identity,
>to help decide the character's actions?
In my examples above, the codified systems of morality referred to
would be called names like "Bushido" rather than names like "Lawful
Good"; but they're still codified systems of morality.
Nothing is *horribly* wrong with this in an rpg -- though I personally
prefer not to have my character's morality forcibly pigeonholed in
this manner. However, *in real life* (as the original post discussed),
this is an excessively simplistic view of morality.
I suspect that in real life, many people *do* have an excessively
simplistic view of morality. Doesn't the thread on Christian D&D -
bashing amply demonstrate this? :)
The examples I cited above were not from real life, though perhaps
they could occur in real life. Then again, if you take the view that
RPGs best recreate not real life but rather real fantasy fiction, then
you can well refer to examples drawn from movies, books, etc.
Perhaps you missed what I am objecting to: that the original poster
thought that D&D gave insight into real-life morality.
Well, it doesn't give as much real insight as a good philosophical
debate, but it does give more insight into real-life morality than
a game of checkers would. My impression of the post you responded to
was that it was in reply to the claim that D&D is an "immoral" game;
and the poster argued that it could be seen as a more "moral" game
than most others. Meaning more moral than checkers or chess or
bridge or craps.
You gave a fine rant on the cookie-cutter pseudo-morality of D&D,
which I largely agree with (in my own campaign world, the names of
the D&D alignments exist as part of the common culture-- some
philosopher came up with them many years past-- but there's no more
agreement on specific instances than in the real world. Every major
religion claims to be "Lawful Good." :). It just seemed to me that
your rant was triggered by a comment that might, itself, not have
warranted it.
--
David Covin co...@tartarus.uchicago.edu
Bertil Jonell
>Wouldn't people back in "biblical"
>times consider most of us witches and heathens for what we wear and what
>we are able to accomplish with these modern devices?
"Now this magic wand of curing missionaries was constructed by the two
great wizards Smith and Wesson."
:)
>Felis Lynx
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Sparrowwood Oakmage
his posts will be killed before I have to see them?
Peace Be, Jack (and Amy)
*******************************************************************************
ALONE FOR A WHILE IN BODY BUT NOT IN SPIRIT. SHE'S COMING HOME IN AUG!!
We'll dance all night in the clear moonlight...
j_ro...@oz.plymouth.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jack Loves Amy<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
*****************************Amy Loves Jack************************************
Touching, No??
Bartzakos Peter
Has the Reverend or any others who attack AD&D attacked more
popular games such as Monopoly (you know, the one where the players
represent ruthless property owners who try to bankrupt one another
with immoral and even illegal methods (illegal methods are abstractly
implied as all are subject to imprisonment (GO TO JAIL), either for
their crimes or for being framed for crimes by competitors)?
Brent Irvine
>
>the world. How can one be an effective witness if one refuses involvement in
>one's culture? The better approach is to be DISCERNING - that is, become aware
>of what exists in popular culture, and refuse to accept culture that is
>mediocre just because it is Christian, and refuse to reject a "worldly" piece
>of culture if it is finely crafted AND uplifts the higher values of a society,
>even if they are not pro-Christian values. Even if a piece promotes a morality
>or theology contrary to Christianity, a Christian has a responsibility and
>POWER as a consumer to BUY cultural products that are well made, and NOT buy
>cultural products that aren't. In this way a Christian becomes part of the
>market that publishers, film producers, and, yes, game manufacturers like TSR
>are trying to serve. ( If a Christian buys nothing of popular culture, he has
>decided not to vote this year, and given up his power).
I agree with you, BUT no one should buy anything if he or she feels
that he or she won't enjoy it much. [But one has to be open minded
about new experiences as well: A Christian should feel obligated
to enjoy the world God created!]
To condemn without trying/learning about it with an unbiased mind
is to spread misinformation/lies which furthers no one!
Wes Contreras
The way I've always played the alignment system doesn't seem to have any
of the problems that everyone else seems to be complaining about. There are
no "pigeon-holing" of actions, no restrictions, and no problems. And it is
exactly as the rules say. I simply decide what kind of character I want to
play. I define his history, his personality, his goals, and his attitudes.
I sketch the character as completely as possible. Then I try to figure out
which alignment he already fits into. The only purpose for alignment is so
that the rules can say things like "such and such does such and such to GOOD
aligned people" and that sort of thing. They are NOT there to limit the
character's actions, only to determine what sort of alignment based things
the character is vulnerable to. That's it. Now, what I want to know, is why
anyone would do it any other way?
Sparrowwood Oakmage
>>last line of part 1 repeated...
>
>[Isaiah 47:9-15]
>Thank goodness no one on this bulletin board practices sorcery.
Are you sure?
>
>[Psalms 106: 34-39a]
>Thank goodness no one here sacrifices their children.
I do indeed, thank the Goddess for it. I love both my children.
>
>>
>>Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the magical
>>items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy water, garlic
>>and wolves bane. All of these are part of the ancient witchcraft practices
>>of the early civilization, as well as when Jesus walked the earth. Again
>>these are forbidden by the Lord.
>
>No one has them. Sure, some of the games have them in it, therefore
I have a collection of herbs and spices that I use.
>
>>C. Ref. "spell books": Today you can enter any hobby store and purchase
>>books on spell casting. One book written by Philip Emmons Isaac Bonewits,
>>the only person to have a B.A. from University of California in magic,
>>_Authentic Thaumaturgy-A Professional Occultist on Improving the Realism Of
>>magic Systems used in Fantasy STimulation Games._
>
>Wow so a whacked out guy wrote an occult book to try to make the game
>more to his liking! To then condemn all rpgs because one man writes
>an occult book about it is like condemning all forms of language because
>someone used a curse word near you.
>
>BTW- *I* never heard of this. It is amazing what the wacked out fundies
>come up with and research -- I have been playing rpg's for a LONG time
>and I have NEVER heard of this book...
You just haven't looked in the right places..
>
>> D&D books themselves
>>contain spells...
>[stuff deleted]
>
>Hello?!?!!? D&D books are not "How to.." manuals and do not tell you how
>to cast spells and such. It is therefore NOT an occult item.
This also is true. It would be utter foolishness to say that
it were so.
>
>
>> Leviticus 19:26a---" You shall not practice augury or witchcraft."
>Thank goodness no one here has ever cast a spell!
Excuse me. Once again I ask..Are you sure?
>
>>D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
>>be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood.
>
>Huh? If you are referring to spellcasting: NO ONE DOES AND THE "WORDS"
>TO THE "SPELLS" (which are made-up BTW) ARE NOT IN THE BOOK AND DO NOT
>EXIST!!!!
I -HAVE- played with a DM that suggested we come up with the
verbals..hHe gave us extra XP for it if we did but did not take any
away if we didn't. This -DOES NOT- mean that they became -real-..
>
>NO ONE IS GETTIN G POWER FROM ANYONE!
>
>>are to pray and meditate. Realize who you are praying to.
I do. Please remember, in many peoples eyes the -only- true
God is -their- God. Please try to keep an open mind.
>
>I am a devout Christian and I play rpg's when I can. My characters are
>not me, they are like characters i read about in a book and I 'play them'
>because it is entertaining (sometimes boring though...:)). I do not
>pray to pagan gods, nor do *I* cast spells or delve into the occult, my
>characters do (I do not even know the first thing about the occult).
I -was- a devout xtian..and a gamer at the same time. One of
my DMs was my pastors son. My current belief in "paganism" has/had
nothing to do with gaming.
>I suggest that you take a deep breath and concentrate on the differences
>between the game's fantasy and reality!
I agree. He's a christian, I'm a pagan..we -BOTH- aggree that
gaming has -NOTHING- to do with Paganism..
>> As Christians, we are commanded to pray. We are to "pray without
>>ceasing" (I Thess. 5:17), but we are to pray as Jesus taught us. We are to
>>pray only to God our Father, and ask for things in His name and according to
>>His will. Revelation 19:10--"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him,
>>but he said to me, "you must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you
>>and your brethern who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.""
>
>The CHARACTERS pray, We do not(well we *do* to God, but not the pagan
>dieties that arer made-up ones).
I don't pray to the made up ones either..:)
>>G. Ref. "Conjure earth elementals" pg. 44 Dungeon Master
>>There is a satanic worship group that meets in Santa Barbara, and part of
>>their activities is to conjure up earth elementals. They do this by praying
>>and by using spells and "magical items".
>Whoopee-do! I do not and do not think that they are right in doing that,
>but it has NOTHING to do with D&D!
Nor do I. It's a dangerous comparison to make. Are you
stockpiling weapons like the Davidians?
>>I Samuel expressly forbids this type of action. The account of the witch of
>>Endor (I Samuel 28:7-20) states that any relationship of this nature is
>>action unbecoming to a child of God.
>
>Yup. Thank goodness no D&Der from here has done that.
Hmm, don't have my NIV handy so I don't know if I have or not.
>DOn't bother gary.
>It sounds like you need to be able to distingusih between fiction and reality.
>From a fellow Christian: learn what the quotes in the Bible MEAN before you
>parrot them!
And I'd like to point out that just because I'm a pagan -and-
a gamer, it does not mean that gaming leads to "satan" worship.
I don't worship satan. I don't believe in "Satan" as such. I -do-
believe that there is bad as well as good in the cosmos. I don't
worship it, pray to it or offer up sacrifices to it. I like the gentle
sounds of the wind in the trees and the songs of the birds. I believe
in the Goddess and the Master of the Hunt. I offer -NO- animal
sacrifices to either of these tho I do burn incense. I don't believe
in killing as -ALL- life is sacred. Many pagans are gamers but not many
gamers are pagans. Like all squares are rectangles but not all
rectangles are squares. Get it?
So, if you happen to find a gamer who is a pagan, just remember
some of us are both but there is really no connection. It proves -NOTHING-.
Oh yes..please don't make broad generalizations like "None of us
here/No one here" because, you see, some of us do.
Sparrowwood Oakmage
>I wish people would realize that I gave forewarning that I was putting these
>articles on the net because interest was expressed in them. I am not the
>author of these articles, I am merely the copyist. I play too and I have
>
>OF THESE PIECES, THINK AGAIN.
Gary, can you assure me that the author reads -each and every-
followup and reply to these articles of his/hers you are posting?
If not, then how can I get in touch with the author? If this is not
possible, then please do not post for that person again. I find it
very narrow-minded to start something like this and not follow through
as would be the case if the author didn't read all the replies..
Sparrowwood Oakmage
Brent Irvine
>In article <C8FIp...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irv...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>>In article <C8F87...@mach1.wlu.ca> gvan...@mach1.wlu.ca (gary van lingen) writes:
>>[Isaiah 47:9-15]
>>Thank goodness no one on this bulletin board practices sorcery.
>
> Are you sure?
I guess I stand corrected?
>>Thank goodness no one here sacrifices their children.
>
> I do indeed, thank the Goddess for it. I love both my children.
You sacrifice your children or you DON'T. I am assuming you DON'T, but the
syntax is a bit confusing...
>>No one has them. Sure, some of the games have them in it, therefore
>
> I have a collection of herbs and spices that I use.
For what? Cooking or magick?
>>BTW- *I* never heard of this. It is amazing what the wacked out fundies
>>come up with and research -- I have been playing rpg's for a LONG time
>>and I have NEVER heard of this book...
>
> You just haven't looked in the right places..
I guess so, there are about 8 gaming stores that I shop at at one
time or another in the year (being a NomadStudent has its advantages)
and at NONE of them did I find the aforementioned book.
Maybe I should look for it in a occult bookstore? (But I really
don't want it.
>>Hello?!?!!? D&D books are not "How to.." manuals and do not tell you how
>>to cast spells and such. It is therefore NOT an occult item.
>
> This also is true. It would be utter foolishness to say that
>it were so.
So the reverand did so. I see a pattern....:)
>>> Leviticus 19:26a---" You shall not practice augury or witchcraft."
>>Thank goodness no one here has ever cast a spell!
>
> Excuse me. Once again I ask..Are you sure?
I personally do not believe in magick, but if you cast what you
call 'spells', I stand corrected...
>>>D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
>>>be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood.
>>
>>Huh? If you are referring to spellcasting: NO ONE DOES AND THE "WORDS"
>>TO THE "SPELLS" (which are made-up BTW) ARE NOT IN THE BOOK AND DO NOT
>>EXIST!!!!
>
> I -HAVE- played with a DM that suggested we come up with the
>verbals..hHe gave us extra XP for it if we did but did not take any
>away if we didn't. This -DOES NOT- mean that they became -real-..
True, and saying 'abracadabra' (or the equivalent) does not mean
you are 'sinning' or making the spell real.
I personally think that would be silly...
> I do. Please remember, in many peoples eyes the -only- true
>God is -their- God. Please try to keep an open mind.
As a Christian, I feel that all religions have *some* truth in them
and have *some* validity (although I must say that I feel that
Christianity is the only wholly correct one - though even some
sects have 'strayed'), but you must excuse me if I do not feel
that your religion is wholly correct or true...
{This is one area in which paganism and Christianity differ...if you
want to continue this particular commentary let's do it by e-mail...}
>>I am a devout Christian and I play rpg's when I can. My characters are
>>not me, they are like characters i read about in a book and I 'play them'
>>because it is entertaining (sometimes boring though...:)). I do not
>>pray to pagan gods, nor do *I* cast spells or delve into the occult, my
>>characters do (I do not even know the first thing about the occult).
>
> I -was- a devout xtian..and a gamer at the same time. One of
>my DMs was my pastors son. My current belief in "paganism" has/had
>nothing to do with gaming.
Probably so. When I was younger I was very Atheistic/Agnostic, but have since
changed back. My 'anti-Christian' past had nothing to do with gaming either,
as does my current belief.
>>I suggest that you take a deep breath and concentrate on the differences
>>between the game's fantasy and reality!
>
> I agree. He's a christian, I'm a pagan..we -BOTH- aggree that
>gaming has -NOTHING- to do with Paganism..
Yup, and it has little to do with Christianity as well.
>>Whoopee-do! I do not and do not think that they are right in doing that,
>>but it has NOTHING to do with D&D!
>
> Nor do I. It's a dangerous comparison to make. Are you
>stockpiling weapons like the Davidians?
Can't say that I am...
(But then again you can't be sure of crazed Methodists like me! ;) )
(sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)
>>DOn't bother gary.
>>It sounds like you need to be able to distingusih between fiction and reality.
>>From a fellow Christian: learn what the quotes in the Bible MEAN before you
>>parrot them!
>
> And I'd like to point out that just because I'm a pagan -and-
>a gamer, it does not mean that gaming leads to "satan" worship.
It does not, many times it awakens imagination that otherwise would
remain dormant. It teaches critical thinking, sociology (the complex
societies we imagine and play in), diplomacy, history, language,
writing skills, communication skills [you have to be able to say
and write down descriptions of where you are or what you are doing]
and so on. A lot of close-minded condemners grow fearful of those
skills (and arguement could be made that they condemn the development
of these skills and such as well as 'associating' with a game because
they cannot trust the strength of the Faith and so on. It is written
in the Bible that God will not allow you to be tempted farther than you
can handle, so I don't see what the Bible thumpers have against it as
temptations and resisting is supposed to STRENGTHEN faith...go figure)
>gamers are pagans. Like all squares are rectangles but not all
>rectangles are squares. Get it?
Yup.
> So, if you happen to find a gamer who is a pagan, just remember
>some of us are both but there is really no connection. It proves -NOTHING-.
I GM for one player who is a practicing pagan (doesn't come up much).
In the Ars Magica campaign we ran, he was a Criamon Mage who gave up
the Order to become a pious mage (he is still travelling and "learning").
[BTW the Christianity-Magus connection was totally his idea!]
> Oh yes..please don't make broad generalizations like "None of us
>here/No one here" because, you see, some of us do.
Yeah, I shouldn't generallize. That post, you realize, was done hastily
and in anger.
Pax,
Sly
>>I wish people would realize that I gave forewarning that I was putting these
>>articles on the net because interest was expressed in them. I am not the
>>author of these articles, I am merely the copyist. I play too and I have
>>
>>SO THE NEXT TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO FLAME ME AS IF I ACTUALLY WERE THE AUTHOR
>>OF THESE PIECES, THINK AGAIN.
>
> Gary, can you assure me that the author reads -each and every-
>followup and reply to these articles of his/hers you are posting?
>If not, then how can I get in touch with the author? If this is not
>possible, then please do not post for that person again. I find it
>very narrow-minded to start something like this and not follow through
>as would be the case if the author didn't read all the replies..
I think you are losing it. The man printed an article that was
from anti-gaming zealots. There was a general call for it, or it could
at least be considered useful to some, as there was a conversation on
anti-gaming. I think the general idea was that this was an older article,
and an anti-gaming one. I believe Gary (if that is your name that posted
it), was simply trying to give us information. Sheesh, chill out. Can't
you simply read something and gain knowledge without *having* to give
your opinion? The person who posted this doesn't have to, and actually
shouldn't make replies defending an article he didn't write.
--------------------------------------------------
| "In the midst of the word he was trying to say |
| In the midst of his laughter and glee, | -Sly
| He had softly and suddenly vanished away---- |
| For the Snark was a Boojum, you see." | mtli...@midway.uchicago.edu
| Lewis Carroll |
--------------------------------------------------
Sparrowwood Oakmage
> I think you are losing it. The man printed an article that was
>from anti-gaming zealots. There was a general call for it, or it could
>at least be considered useful to some, as there was a conversation on
>anti-gaming. I think the general idea was that this was an older article,
>and an anti-gaming one. I believe Gary (if that is your name that posted
>it), was simply trying to give us information. Sheesh, chill out. Can't
>you simply read something and gain knowledge without *having* to give
>your opinion? The person who posted this doesn't have to, and actually
>shouldn't make replies defending an article he didn't write.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>| "In the midst of the word he was trying to say |
>| In the midst of his laughter and glee, | -Sly
>| He had softly and suddenly vanished away---- |
>| For the Snark was a Boojum, you see." | mtli...@midway.uchicago.edu
>| Lewis Carroll |
>--------------------------------------------------
>
Keep reading on, you'll find that I didn't know that they were
pamphlets he was sharing with us as the first was not cross posted to
the newsgroup I subscribe to. You'll also note I sent him an appology.
I don't expect the same..