RM: New rules...
Paul Lahaie
Unfortunately, my campaign is also based in ShadowWorld (don't have the time
to create my own complete world), and the NPCs in ShadowWorld tend to be VERY
weak compared to PCs (When 2nd level PCs (a few of them) can kill a 50th level
Lord of Essaence, there is definately something wrong!). The reason I use the
rules is not due to "boost the power level". It's just that I find them
quite interesting (somethings are still dissallowed). Have any RM GMs have
to face such circumstances? If so, what did you use to "balance" it out?
Also, on another note. Is there an RM FTP site?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
co...@shaman.nexagen.com
> I've GMing a campaign in which I use most of the RM Companions.
>Unfortunately, my campaign is also based in ShadowWorld (don't have the time
>to create my own complete world), and the NPCs in ShadowWorld tend to be VERY
>weak compared to PCs (When 2nd level PCs (a few of them) can kill a 50th level
>Lord of Essaence, there is definately something wrong!). The reason I use the
>rules is not due to "boost the power level". It's just that I find them
>quite interesting (somethings are still dissallowed). Have any RM GMs have
>to face such circumstances? If so, what did you use to "balance" it out?
Hmm. Ah. I do not mean to be sarcastic or mean, but yeah, something MUST be
wrong. Lets consider a fight between ANY 50th level character and a bunch of
2nd level characters. Lets even say there are 20 of the 2nd level guys. I
wont even consider the magic items that the Essaence Lord has (but if he is
in Shadow World, he's got to have at least a 100 DB, 100 hits, and lots of
immunities and resistances). Lets say we let the 2nd level guys go first.
The fighters attack. Each has about a 50 OB (and that's a really butch 2nd
level guy). If he has a 100 DB, then in order to have a chance of hitting and
doing a critical, they need to roll open-ended. Odds are that one will do that,
and he will probably get an A. Yeah, he might take out the 50th level dude
(and that _possibility_ is cool, I think). But he probably won't. Any 2nd
level spellcasters around can cast there spells, but they are going to take
3 rounds to cast unless they overcast--and even in the overcast works, unless
they roll ungodly base spell rolls, the 50th level guy needs to roll open-ended
backwards _really_ far to miss his RR and actually be affected by them.
Now its the 50th level guy's turn. Again, we'll ignore any magic items that
he has, or special innate powers, but lets say he has the spell list Spirit
Mastery. Its a closed essence list, so its a pretty safe bet. He casts the
30th level spell Mass Word. It affects up to his level in foes, so he can
get ALL of them. He's adding at least 50 to his base attack roll, so odds
are that he is going to get a result on the BAR table indicating that everyone
has a -55 penalty to their RRs (that's assuming an average BAR roll). That
means that these poor 2nd level guys have to roll over 180 to make their RRs.
Lets say he makes it a Mass Word of Sleep. Boom. All the 2nd level foes are
asleep (OK, even if one or two made incredible resistance rolls, a few phrases
of death later, or, if he's a mage, a x3 lightning bolt, or if he's a sorcerer
how about an Absolution or a Black Channel which puts them in a permanent
coma, etc. they don't have a chance).
Again, we are not counting the guy's minions (if any) all of his items, and
we are only talking the most basic of spell lists in Spell Law. I don't mean
to criticize, but ANY 50th level character should be able to take out any
group of 2nd level characters no matter where he is written up.
By the way, the truly ironic thing is, most people complain and complain
about how overpowering the Shadow World NPCs are (in fact, if your post was
meant to be sarcastic--I missed the joke, I guess). I'd be interested to know
how the party killed the guy. And, to answer your question, I don't think
it is possible to make the Shadow World NPCs any tougher. They are obsene
as it is.
Monte
David Kurt Spencer
> I've GMing a campaign in which I use most of the RM Companions.
>Unfortunately, my campaign is also based in ShadowWorld (don't have the time
>to create my own complete world), and the NPCs in ShadowWorld tend to be VERY
>weak compared to PCs (When 2nd level PCs (a few of them) can kill a 50th level
>Lord of Essaence, there is definately something wrong!).
Uhm, I agree. I don't know anything about Shadowworld, but 2nd level PCs
should barely be able to TOOUCH a fiftieth level _anything_ especially
if that _anyting_ has the words Lord and Essence in its name.
My game is pretty high powered. But. I can keep my group of 3 PCs (levels
14,14,18) busy with one level 30 guy. I assume that a Lord of Essence can
cast Essence magic? Lessee. Mass Bladeturn? Hm, now he has 100 subtracted
from the next 50 melee attacks. That ought to amuse the PCs...I mean, just
looking at essence spell lists, anybody who uses them with any imagination is
going to be verily invincible at level 50. Here's another question--you
say this is a pre-generated character from a set world, right? But your PCs
are using Companion rules...have you given this Lord of Essence the same
options that the PCs had when it came to the companions? I've done that
alot to soup up a NPC that I wanted to be difficult. Give them high stats
and grab the high stat abilities from RCIII ( I recently designed a demonic
assassin/doppleganger (very high power) who had every stat > 101. Made for
alot of high power abilities) Give the NPC access to the same spell lists
that the PCs can get. By fiftieth level, this guy should have a few tricks up
his sleeves. My PCs, at levels 12-18, already felt cocky enough to spend
high amounts of DPs buying non-standard spell lists. The Warrior Mage in
the party I GM recently 'bought' the first section of Arachnamancy, as well
as Gravity Law. The Evil Mentalist has a couple nightblade base lists.
Anybody who is 50th level deserves a fair amount of thought in their character
development, even if they are a NPC. Even if you're using pre-generated stuff,
pretend that this guy is a PC. What would a player have done to get a PC up
to 50th level in your world and how powerful would he be? Then take some of
that and work it into your NPC. If, when battle comes around, your party
is winning, don't be afraid to do things you didn't write down ahead of time.
I hope I was of some help...I'm not flaming you or anything--I've just spent
a fair amount of time making pregenerated NPCs and monsters powerful enough
to challenge the PCs in my world.
>The reason I use the
>rules is not due to "boost the power level". It's just that I find them
>quite interesting (somethings are still dissallowed).
I agree. I use maybe half the stuff in the companions, and it makes my game
much more interesting.
> Also, on another note. Is there an RM FTP site?
Dunno. Or Mailing list, for that matter...?
> Any help is greatly appreciated!
--
"I'm generally a nice guy. Just don't piss me off on Thursday." - me/dspencer@
"I don't intend to offend, I just offend with my intent" - Anthrax ||wpi.wpi.
"Kill them all, let God sort them out!" - Needful Things (movie) \ edu
Terken
>a fair amount of time making pregenerated NPCs and monsters powerful enough
>to challenge the PCs in my world.
Better reduce the power of your PCs, it takes less time and gives more
fun ! :) If you need to generate a Vampire/assassin/demon with 101+ in
every stats to match them, I do hope you have an imagination beyond compare
to generate a monster capable to threaten them when they are Lords... ;)
IMHO, your campaign stinks ! :(
So long, Terken...
PS : Salut James ! :)
David Kurt Spencer
Subject: Re: RM: New rules...
Summary:
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References: <1993Sep13....@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca> <274edh$o...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> <1993Sep14.1...@ugle.unit.no>
Sender:
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Keywords:
First--no, I didn't _need_ to create a creature with stats above 101 to
match them. It was fun. The demon/assassin/doppleganger was, in my mind,
the product of two things--millenia of evolution on a plane where it was
hunt or die, and extreme ambition which sent this near-immortal beast in
search of every sort of enhancement it could find. I don't want you to think
that my PCs are so godly that I _need_ to put this much work into a
creature to challenge them. I also managed to challenge them with an
almost-right-out-of-the-book 'Classic Lich' --a level 35 guy versus a
combined level of (14[PC] + 18[PC] + 12[NPC] + 12[NPC] + 14[NPC])
My point was that the monsters and NPCs in the various ICE publications
vary incredibly in power level. For instance, take a looksee at the
'dreaded Black Reaver' in RCI...If you can keep the sucker out of melee range
he's dead. He has no missile or spell cabaility. And he's supposed to be
tougher than a drake? I agree, in a certain situation, he would be...but
your average mid-high lvl PC can move faster (through various means) than
this guy, and keep him at bay long enough to plug him with a multitude of
arrows or spells...His OB may be high but his DB isn't that godly. Take
a look at any pregenerated NPCs in supplements that were made for MERP (the
only ones I have) and see how weak a 30th level fighter can be.....But
compare that to some of the entities from outer space in C&TII...or some
of the more powerful demonic entities of similar levels...it becomes obvious
fairly quickly that you can't just get stats out of a book, assuming that
the level of the creature given is the only determinant in the creature's
power and relative difficulty. So sometimes a little work in putting some
pep into a NPC is well worth it. Or, in some people's case, maybe they
need to downtone some stats...
In any case, I don't think it's fair, on what little info I supplied in
that post, to assume that my world 'sucks'. My players and I thoroughly
enjoy ourselves and find each session both challenging and rewarding.
What more could you ask for?
>So long, Terken...
andrew.c.durston
Schwark R.
>"Kill them all, let God sort them out!" - Needful Things (movie)
This is not from Needful Things. It is a quote from a commander of the
Crusade against the Cathars (a catholic 'heresy'), in Southern France.
When the Catholic commander took the town, he gave this order. Perhaps
somebody has the other details handy, I don't have them here at the office.
Ry
Simon Seah
>almost-right-out-of-the-book 'Classic Lich' --a level 35 guy versus a
>combined level of (14[PC] + 18[PC] + 12[NPC] + 12[NPC] + 14[NPC])
As an aside, a friend of mine who's pretty big on RM once asserted that
characters can be assigned a point value equal to (level)^2.
Hence, a L2 character is worth 4 points, a L1 character is worth 1.
Therefore, _theoretically_, that level 2 character is worth 4x L1
characters.
In your above example, the L35 lich is worth 1,225 points, and the
(N)PCs are worth a total of 1004 points. Pretty close, hence
the fight was, theoretically, 'equal'.
I'm just stating my friend's assertion. I'm not that heavy into
analysis, neither have I played RM that long. But he claims this
method is reasonably accurate.
< Black Reaver being toast at range >
Good point.
>a look at any pregenerated NPCs in supplements that were made for MERP (the
>only ones I have) and see how weak a 30th level fighter can be.....But
>compare that to some of the entities from outer space in C&TII...or some
>of the more powerful demonic entities of similar levels...it becomes obvious
>fairly quickly that you can't just get stats out of a book, assuming that
>the level of the creature given is the only determinant in the creature's
>power and relative difficulty. So sometimes a little work in putting some
>pep into a NPC is well worth it. Or, in some people's case, maybe they
>need to downtone some stats...
What I'd like to see, in many many products, is _how_ they get the stats.
How did they arrive at an OB of 125 or whatever for a Greater Drake?
Why does a Lord Level Herald of Night have an OB of 250?
I'd hate to know the answer was "it's arbitrary". I think that makes
for a pretty lousy system when you force those who play the game to
make characters according to rules, but the designers blatantly
ignore the rules and just assign an OB. IMO, that means that the
system is broken somewhere such that they are forced to make these
rule bends.
>In any case, I don't think it's fair, on what little info I supplied in
>that post, to assume that my world 'sucks'. My players and I thoroughly
>enjoy ourselves and find each session both challenging and rewarding.
>What more could you ask for?
Excellent point. I know of AD&D campaigns where the PCs have multiple
classes of L20+. I know of a PC in that game who creates swords worth
billions of gold and sells them for _income_.
Munchkin? Power-Gaming? Perhaps. But the point is, they're having fun.
And how long has this game been going on for? _YEARS_. Real time.
It's not so much how you play, but whether you have fun. And who
says you have to stick with the 'guidelines' provided by the
official products?
Paul Lahaie
>p...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Paul Lahaie) writes:
>
>in Shadow World, he's got to have at least a 100 DB, 100 hits, and lots of
>immunities and resistances). Lets say we let the 2nd level guys go first.
>The fighters attack. Each has about a 50 OB (and that's a really butch 2nd
>level guy). If he has a 100 DB, then in order to have a chance of hitting and
>doing a critical, they need to roll open-ended. Odds are that one will do that
Actually, the 2nd level Fighter (Black Cape modified character template,
(Arms Companion) has a +120 and is capable of focusing to add an extra 82 to
that number. (This was a mistake on my part... I didn't fully understand the
power levels of the char templates in the Arms Companion (never again) ). The
+120 is basically derived from +71 St Stat bonus (St/St/Ag). Not to mention
any "special stat abilities". (It makes sense to base things on Stat Bonus
not on Stat Numbers). He can give quite a wallop (he also usually gets one).
Maybe a 50th level LoE was ->slight<- exageration (They did defeat a 25th
level Sorcere and a 25th Something or other). But it's kind of insane.
- Paul
Scowling Jim Cowling
Insane. Yep. That's why I decided to stop playing Rolemaster. It's so tough
to find a group that's willing to stick with "just the basics" when it comes to
all the options available in the companions.
It's a simple feat to make a Great Man Barbarian who wields a two-handed
battle axe in each hand, and who at 1st level can have a 160 OB in one hand and
150 in the other, with 100+ hit points.
First. Level. Character.
Yes, I made the character. Yes, I played him. He wasn't any fun in an
all-out battle, needless to say. I did have fun talking two groups of orcs
into releasing a hostage family without drawing axes once, but, still...
Rolemaster is the ultimate muchkin FRP. I might be convinced to play again if
nothing past RMC II was used, but until then, I'll stick with Harnmaster.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scowling Jim Cowling, The Merchant of Menace / Charter Member: Evil Retailers
Alliance / jcow...@sol.uvic.ca / CI$: 73233,626 / Just canceled my GEnie sub
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOHN MARTIN KARAKASH
> I've GMing a campaign in which I use most of the RM Companions.
|>Unfortunately, my campaign is also based in ShadowWorld (don't have the time
|>to create my own complete world), and the NPCs in ShadowWorld tend to be VERY
|>weak compared to PCs (When 2nd level PCs (a few of them) can kill a 50th level
|>Lord of Essaence, there is definately something wrong!).
This reminds me of a guy who had the same problem in the old
Top Secret game. He was forgetting to divide by 10 when figuring the
players hit points! =) It's probably some math thing or a forgotten
rule, eh?
-john-
S Butterfield
:
: Actually, the 2nd level Fighter (Black Cape modified character template,
: (Arms Companion) has a +120 and is capable of focusing to add an extra 82 to
: that number. (This was a mistake on my part...
You can say that again ;-)
: The +120 is basically derived from +71 St Stat bonus (St/St/Ag).
Errr ... hang on a sec. You are remembering to divide the sum of the St/St/Ag
stat bonuses by three aren't you? When multiple stats affect a skill, you use
the *average* of their bonuses. That would make for a far more reasonable
stat bonus of around +24 which would reduce the OB to about +73 (120-24).
If you already *are* dividing by three then you have St and Ag stats with
average bonuses of +71! Now that's frightening.
Stuart
(Happy now since my Grey Worlds finally arrived yesterday :-) :-) :-)
Terken
I was simply kidding when I said "your campaign stinks",
that was bad humour, OK.
My point now is the most important parameter of the RM
game, I mean "% of activity". Mastering it will considerably
change your point of view and I do hope it will boost your opinion
on the Fighter... I happen to play a 22nd level Fighter... :)
the Golden rule : you can only cast 1 spell per round even if you are
hasted. Whatever spell you cast, even an instantaneous Bladeturn, it
takes 75% of activity, that mean, you can not Attack but you may
parry at 25% of your skill. Most of all, if you cast a spell in the
spell phase, you have no possibility to cast a DEFLECT in the missile
phase ! It also works with Leaving (teleport) spells, the round you
teleport, you can do nothing else, and specially you cannot cast a
second spell or attack even at 25 % of your skill...
If a fighter was stupid, he would have no chance to reach the 30th level,
because I guess your PCs are not the only spell-casters in your world :)
At that level, the fighter has a good OB/DB ratio, but he also has a good
missile OB, a fair SAA, tumbling... So he should be something more than
a OB/DB machine. If this is your conception of a fighter, come to play
with us, we will be delighted to show you how powerful this class can be :)
The Black reaver is supposed to be more powerful than a drake even if he
has no missile or spells-abilities. That's true. First, he defends as a
Super-large creature (it means only D or E criticals can affect him), he
has AT20 and something like 100DB (excuse me if I am wrong but I don't
have my RMCI at work :) he is also immune to most elemental attacks, so
like Terminator, he walks to contact, giving a shit of the spells casted
on him and despising the missiles sent to him. I forgot that he cannot
be stunned or repelled ! When he is in melee, which should easily happened
unless your PCs have 5000 PPs and where casting hundreds of spells and
shooting 500 arrows, so when he is in melee, he has a good chance to
strike first. Even if he strikes in second, his DB and defensive abilities
I mean AT20, Superlarge, no stun and so on can allow him to endure with
no problem the blow your PCs might do. Maybe a 30th level fighter has a
fair chance to kill him in one blow ! :) When he strikes, the reaver has
300 in OB, that means even the obsene lords of essence have to parry not
to be crushed by his weapon... And he has 2 attacks ! :) He is the proof
that even with no spell abilities you can be powerful and maybe virtually
invincible.
I'd like some informations about your mighty PCs but I doubt they would
match a Black reaver played even by me. I dare not to imagine the fight
with my GM playing the reaver... :)
so long, Terken.
Terken
> Actually, the 2nd level Fighter (Black Cape modified character template,
>(Arms Companion) has a +120 and is capable of focusing to add an extra 82 to
>that number. (This was a mistake on my part... I didn't fully understand the
>power levels of the char templates in the Arms Companion (never again) ). The
>+120 is basically derived from +71 St Stat bonus (St/St/Ag). Not to mention
>any "special stat abilities". (It makes sense to base things on Stat Bonus
>not on Stat Numbers). He can give quite a wallop (he also usually gets one).
>Maybe a 50th level LoE was ->slight<- exageration (They did defeat a 25th
>level Sorcere and a 25th Something or other). But it's kind of insane.
Paul, you must realize that RM has been done by a lot of different
people, and the rules have changed considerably. We still use the Core rules
because we think that most of the stuff released in RMC* with *>3 is not
compatible with the rest of the game. You need to eliminate a lot of things
in order to avoid a 2nd level fighter to kill a 25th level mage. For instance,
in Arms Companion, the propose +50 arrows for 1 gp while it costs a fortune
in the Character Law to buy a +10 weapon. There is something wrong. First, the
game was balanced fairly, with a slight advantage to the PCs. Now, the new
creators develop more and more useless rules which are in complete disagreement
with the first rules. Too bad they have changed that development of that
wonderful game. If you use all the late rules, it becomes a Power-gaining
game made for Munchkins !
So, IMHO, you should only use the core rules + RMCI and RMCII, with
a few things taken from the other publications... Then a 25th level sorcerer
will even threaten a group of PCs where everybody is around 18th level ! Isn't
it James ! :)
Bye, Terken
David Kurt Spencer
>>p...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Paul Lahaie) writes:
>>
>>in Shadow World, he's got to have at least a 100 DB, 100 hits, and lots of
>>immunities and resistances). Lets say we let the 2nd level guys go first.
>>The fighters attack. Each has about a 50 OB (and that's a really butch 2nd
> Actually, the 2nd level Fighter (Black Cape modified character template,
>(Arms Companion) has a +120 and is capable of focusing to add an extra 82 to
>that number. (This was a mistake on my part... I didn't fully understand the
>power levels of the char templates in the Arms Companion (never again) ). The
>+120 is basically derived from +71 St Stat bonus (St/St/Ag).
Uhm, 71 stat bonus?? What the heck kind of stat does this lvl 2 guy have?
St/St/Ag means average ST with ST and AG (meaning ST counts twice as much
as AG) Not to sum them. If you did average them, then this guy has incredible
stats. If you added them, then his power is way too high.
I'm not familiar with Arms Companion, so if this character template gives guys
+71 bonuses in stats, then I shrug my shoulders in defeat :)
..me
--
dspe...@wpi.wpi.edu-generally a nice guy, just don't piss him off on Thursday.
"I don't intend to offend, I just offend with my intent." - Anthrax
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out." -- orig. source unknown...?
David Kurt Spencer
> David,
>
> I was simply kidding when I said "your campaign stinks",
>that was bad humour, OK.
>
> My point now is the most important parameter of the RM
> game, I mean "% of activity". Mastering it will considerably
>change your point of view and I do hope it will boost your opinion
>on the Fighter... I happen to play a 22nd level Fighter... :)
>
>the Golden rule : you can only cast 1 spell per round even if you are
> hasted. Whatever spell you cast, even an instantaneous Bladeturn, it
> takes 75% of activity, that mean, you can not Attack but you may
>parry at 25% of your skill.
ability to cast a bladeturn and attack (?)
>Most of all, if you cast a spell in the
> spell phase, you have no possibility to cast a DEFLECT in the missile
> phase ! It also works with Leaving (teleport) spells, the round you
>teleport, you can do nothing else, and specially you cannot cast a
>second spell or attack even at 25 % of your skill...
Okay...but I don't use those phases...my world runs the 1D10 initiative
system, so whenever you get to attack you get to attack, whether the
attack is a melee, missile, or spell.
>
>(some stuff deleted)If this is your conception of a fighter, come to play
>with us, we will be delighted to show you how powerful this class can be :)
>
I would love to. See, I have never _played_ rolemaster. I have spent
all my days as a GM. I would also love to see how others play the game.
I'm not saying that my game is run the best possible way. I'm saying it
works for us. The point of my reading this group is to observe how others
play and GM and hopefully gain something from it. I'll be taking a look
on the percentage of activity rules. I could have sworn I read something
somewhere about instantaneous spells and attacking in the same round, or
casting 2 instant spells in a round... I'll look into it, thanks for the
suggestion.
>The Black reaver is supposed to be more powerful than a drake even if he
>has no missile or spells-abilities. That's true. First, he defends as a
>Super-large creature (it means only D or E criticals can affect him), he
>has AT20 and something like 100DB (excuse me if I am wrong but I don't
>have my RMCI at work :) he is also immune to most elemental attacks, so
..deleted..
>that even with no spell abilities you can be powerful and maybe virtually
>invincible.
>
Okay. I ran the PCs against a lesser black reaver and they had some
help (i.e. a few constructs that kept his attention because they
attacked him from every side) And, he did kill the one stupid dwarf who
ran in and tried to kill him with his mighty morningstar (duh). He
basically cut him down in the first swing and finished him off with the
second. I can't recall how they did put the guy down, but if I recall
there was an extensive amount of missile play going on and quite possibly
a lucky roll on crits. _plus_ he's undead--meaning he's slain by undead
weapons (or by a PC who has an UndeadBane background option)
>I'd like some informations about your mighty PCs but I doubt they would
>match a Black reaver played even by me. I dare not to imagine the fight
>with my GM playing the reaver... :)
You're probably right...the PCs have grown in my world, fighting my types
of monsters. I don't even wager that I could, using their stats, defeat
my own black reaver...they do things their own way. And, like I said, they
did fight a lesser reaver. But, considering the warrior mage was an undead
slayer from background, he only needed a few good attacks to put him down
with any sort of luck on crits rolls.
>
>so long, Terken.
Terken
I really prefer your last Post to the previous. :)
You are 100% right when you say a hasted guy can cast a
spell and strikes since his activity is then 200%. The only thing
he cannot do is to cast 2 spells. I know players who consider that
an instantaneous spell requires 50% of activity so you can cast 2 in
the same round. That's wrong and disadvantage really non-spell-casters...
I let you imagine what a high level cleric can do with such a rule... :(
You should have given details about the fight versus the Lesser
Black Reaver, that would have avoided me to try to give a lesson... :(
If you happen to come to France some day, we will be pleased to
invite you to one game in order for you to see how we play. If you are
intersted, you can mail me, my address is in the Header. The core rules
spiced with the 2 first companions and some home-rules really work fine
for us... :)
So long, Terken
andrew.c.durston
OK, I've just started to read Arms Companion in depth but does anyone
want to speculate on HOW spending 1 year with a mercenary company
would allow someone one +20 stat bonus ( OK, do we add this to the
racial stat mod or replace it? ) let alone THREE! Zoiks, can anyone
say game balance? The only explanation I can offer is either that
they have imbedded Chaos Armor ( and don't know it ), are Cybered
( and don't know it ) or drenched in the blood of a God... :-)
+71 stat bonus!?!
Astounded,
Andrew
graham.j.wills
>The
>+120 is basically derived from +71 St Stat bonus (St/St/Ag).
St/St/Ag means to average these values, not sum them. This may be what's
making the values a little high. Therefore it should be +23.
Assuming that he's started with 1 rank in his favorite weapon and has taken
three ranks at level 1 and 2, he has seven ranks for a +35.
A very good item might be his for +15.
This gives us 23 + 35 +15 = 73. An awesome 2nd level character,
capable of putting up a great fight against normal 5-7th level
types as long as he can use his fav weapon.
Against a DB of 100, though, he's toast.
Even with "special stat abilities" or nice background options.
-Graham Wills
Siu-fung Lee
I've played RM for awhile, and getting an OB above +100 is not that easy. I think some players just don't read the rules properly. There are quite a few rules that are rather dumb, and more and more garbage gets added to the never-ending companions.
But it is quite playable. Just the GM has to read carefully, and read a lot! No shortage of rules in RM.
What is ridiculous is the High-warrior monk! Yeesh... when you use the extra skills from the later companions, they become like demi-gods. Adrenal defense, armoured adrenal defense, body rigidry, multiple attacks, attack behind, yado & Iai (both very cheap), extra crits with weapons... and more (I know I'm forgetting a few things). Even when you use paired weapons, you only need to develop 1/2 the ranks of your MA skill for each weapon! So, you can wear AT20, and still have a great DB, a Martial artist
can make multiple attacks, plus be hasted and/or use adrenal speed (so is that 8 or 16 attacks?) and can even absorb 'f' crits or worse with body rigidry (normal crits anyway). And maybe go frenzy on top of that!
Why ever play a fighter? With high costs in everything but weapons and armour, MA's are much better off.
Ack!
|\ /\ |
| \/ \|
Siu-Fung Lee RAA Background Person (tm)
umle...@ccu.umanitoba.ca "Warning: Excessive RAA Noise causes
University of Manitoba Brain Numbing and Heavy Traffic.
CS3 = 9 * Hell Please turn down volume, or raise KPS limit!"
Paul Lahaie
>Insane. Yep. That's why I decided to stop playing Rolemaster. It's so tough
>to find a group that's willing to stick with "just the basics" when it comes to
>all the options available in the companions.
I've never really had a problem with it before (hence the plea for help).
My players have usually been reasonable. They didn't do character battle
optimizations. Everything was fine, until one player did it... Ugh..
>It's a simple feat to make a Great Man Barbarian who wields a two-handed
>battle axe in each hand, and who at 1st level can have a 160 OB in one hand and
>150 in the other, with 100+ hit points.
>
>First. Level. Character.
Tell me about it. Since the quest for the players (currently) is to
free an Essaence Lord and break a sky (making a 120-mile diameter hole in
a desert in the proceeding). I will just leave them with fewer items
afterwards. They will have to do with body instead of magic.
>Rolemaster is the ultimate muchkin FRP. I might be convinced to play again if
>nothing past RMC II was used, but until then, I'll stick with Harnmaster.
Actually, I consider all the RMCs useful. As long as they aren't overused.
Wanna make a GM Barbarian? Skip the TWC, etc... That's how it usually
happened, but now it's a different story...
- Paul
Paul Lahaie
>
>Uhm, 71 stat bonus?? What the heck kind of stat does this lvl 2 guy have?
>St/St/Ag means average ST with ST and AG (meaning ST counts twice as much
>as AG) Not to sum them. If you did average them, then this guy has incredible
>stats. If you added them, then his power is way too high.
>I'm not familiar with Arms Companion, so if this character template gives guys
>+71 bonuses in stats, then I shrug my shoulders in defeat :)
It gives a +35 Misc St Bonus. With a +21 (Strength of 98) and a + 15
Racial (Talath from ShadowWorld). This gives a +71 St. It's kind of
gross, but at least I know that one day he'll be cocky, and get himself
killed (and for some reason, no one resurrects in my campaign). So,
it'll be the end of the Char Templates. And a more involved character
generation next time (more GM input, less player output :-) ).
- Paul
David Kurt Spencer
>In article <2772ip$g...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> dspe...@wpi.WPI.EDU (David Kurt Spencer) writes:
>
>>
>>Uhm, 71 stat bonus?? What the heck kind of stat does this lvl 2 guy have?
>>St/St/Ag means average ST with ST and AG (meaning ST counts twice as much
>>as AG) Not to sum them. If you did average them, then this guy has incredib
>>I'm not familiar with Arms Companion, so if this character template gives gu
>
> It gives a +35 Misc St Bonus. With a +21 (Strength of 98) and a + 15
>Racial (Talath from ShadowWorld). This gives a +71 St. It's kind of
>gross, but at least I know that one day he'll be cocky, and get himself
>killed (and for some reason, no one resurrects in my campaign). So,
>it'll be the end of the Char Templates. And a more involved character
>generation next time (more GM input, less player output :-) ).
>
> - Paul
carefully if/when I finally get my hands on it. I'd be interested in hearing
how they justify giving a misc ST bonus that is greater than anyone's
normal bonus. I can understand a misc bonus of 5, maybe 10, but thirty-five?
Wow.
andrew.c.durston
>In article s...@cbnewsm.cb.att.com, gwi...@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (graham.j.wills) writes:
>> p...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Paul Lahaie) writes:
>What is ridiculous is the High-warrior monk! Yeesh... when you use the extra
skills from the later companions, they become like demi-gods. Adrenal defense,
armoured adrenal defense, body rigidry, multiple attacks, attack behind, yado &
Iai (both very cheap), extra crits with weapons... and more (I know I'm
forgetting a few things). Even when you use paired weapons, you only need to
develop 1/2 the ranks of your MA skill for each weapon! So, you can wear AT20,
and still have a great DB, a Martial artist can make multiple attacks, plus be
hasted and/or use adrenal speed (so is that 8 or 16 attacks?) and can even
absorb 'f' crits or worse with body rigidry (normal crits anyway). And maybe
go frenzy on top of that!
The party leader in my current main game is a 9th lvl HWM and he
certainly is impressive. I punted Armored Adrenal Defense and the
paired weapon stuff ( ROCO V ) early on. Still, with either Adrenal
Speed or Haste Bladerunes, he regularly does 4 attacks with 1-3
criticals per shot. Sometimes slows things down a bit ( I'm thinking
of making special crit charts for him that have the weapon kata
chart glued to the martial arts chart for quick reference ). The PC
is not into Body Rigidity and he doesn't Haste + Speed ( In my game
that causes you to age and take stress crits... ). There still are
great equalizers - magic and missile weapons.
Ciao,
Andrew
andrew.c.durston
>
>Racial (Talath from ShadowWorld). This gives a +71 St. It's kind of
>gross, but at least I know that one day he'll be cocky, and get himself
>killed (and for some reason, no one resurrects in my campaign). So,
>it'll be the end of the Char Templates. And a more involved character
>generation next time (more GM input, less player output :-) ).
OK. Here's a question that perhaps Monte can answer, is the
stat bonus involved a stat gain ( add to Tempt STR ) as
implied on pg.9, the Central Guard type and the Black Cape
( which just list Strength +XX ), or a stat bonus, as shown
on the other templates ( ST stat bonus +XX ).
2nd, does this bonus ADD TO or REPLACE the racial bonus?
Normally I assume a bonus ( say one selected from an option
table or randomly rolled ) replaces the racial bonus. The
only unique case is the "Largest of Kind" option from ChL
which states the +20 ST bonus is added to racial mod ( though
I've considered changing this as well, witness a Bear Tribes
beastmaster with a +65 ST bonus, 101 ST... )
Now from a background point of view, perhaps the Black Cape
organization rigourous/magically trains the folk so that they
get a +35 bonus. But the Black Cape takes anyone! Does everyone
have this potential, I doubt it.
The templates are a nice idea, in conception and I like the
examples on pg.7/8 of Arms Companion, but the later examples
and the high stat bonuses are silly. I'm punting the stat
bonuses if I ever use them.
To comment on Scowlin Jim's post, Rolemaster tends to a power
game IMHO. There are Munchkin gamers but not Munchkin games.
Enough ranting,
Andrew
Terken
> certainly is impressive. I punted Armored Adrenal Defense and the
> paired weapon stuff ( ROCO V ) early on. Still, with either Adrenal
> Speed or Haste Bladerunes, he regularly does 4 attacks with 1-3
> criticals per shot. Sometimes slows things down a bit ( I'm thinking
> of making special crit charts for him that have the weapon kata
> chart glued to the martial arts chart for quick reference ). The PC
> is not into Body Rigidity and he doesn't Haste + Speed ( In my game
> that causes you to age and take stress crits... ). There still are
> great equalizers - magic and missile weapons.
Isn't that what we call Munchkinism ? O God, do you realize RM has
no need of such a commercial ? I understand now why people call it
"The ultimate Munchkin game"...
Go on Andrew, your campaign is nothing but ridiculous ! :)
Terken.
PS : desole James, j'ai craque ! :)
S Butterfield
:
: Isn't that what we call Munchkinism ? O God, do you realize RM has
: no need of such a commercial ? I understand now why people call it
: "The ultimate Munchkin game"...
No ... that's what we call high-powered. There is a difference.
Munchkinism is caused not by the rules which are being used, but
by the players who use them.
Stuart
Ron
>: no need of such a commercial ? I understand now why people call it
>No ... that's what we call high-powered. There is a difference.
>Munchkinism is caused not by the rules which are being used, but
>by the players who use them. ::STUART
Stuarts dead on. If high-powered campaign characters are always munchkin,
then Terken when you refer to god "O God", you're referring to the ultimate
munchkin...
- Ron
--
----------------------------oOO--O--OOo-------------------------------------
rsm5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |o o| Writer, Systems Engineer VSOFT Inc,
u1...@sparc0a.cs.uiuc.edu ||||| Comp Sci, Finance, Law [Allen 251]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
andrew.c.durston
> Isn't that what we call Munchkinism ? O God, do you realize RM has
> no need of such a commercial ? I understand now why people call it
> "The ultimate Munchkin game"...
>
> Go on Andrew, your campaign is nothing but ridiculous ! :)
Now, now. I agree that Rolemaster is/can be a power-game ( and my game
is on the low end of the scale ) but I don't run a "Munchkin" game and
it certainly isn't ridiculous. ( I'm sure my players will agree as well
especially those with net access - Nick? Rob? Ron? Jon? Ry? etc... ).
Munchkin is an attitude ( and lack of maturity in my book ) but a Power-Game
is one that has a scale greater than norm. Everyone accepts this and plays
within the boundaries ( it is an epic High Fantasy after all... ).
Ciao,
Andrew
Terken
missed the point, some of your players are power-gainer but not
Munchkin... But it remains that the way you presented it was
awfully letting me think it was munchkinism... :)
As a matter of fact, you should remove the awful HWM and
you will see that Fighter is such a great character class...
Terken, the Lord Fighter.
Schwark R.
>
>Now, now. I agree that Rolemaster is/can be a power-game ( and my game
>is on the low end of the scale ) but I don't run a "Munchkin" game and
>it certainly isn't ridiculous. ( I'm sure my players will agree as well
>especially those with net access - Nick? Rob? Ron? Jon? Ry? etc... ).
absolutely! There is nothing munchkin about Andrew's games.
Ry.
PS. Andrew, can I have the +400 Eog battleaxe of god slaying now please? :-)
PPS. No really, In absolute seriousness, Andrew's games aren't munchkin.
PPPS. Andrew, oh yeah, and don't forget the +300 battle armor with built
in turbo lasers, neutron ray, and jetpack. :-)
PPPPS. No really, its the only campaign where I hocked all my mithral
halfplate to hire an assassin to kill two fellow characters because they
made me look bad in front of my mom.
Schwark R.
> As a matter of fact, you should remove the awful HWM and
>you will see that Fighter is such a great character class...
Actually in the very same campaign with the HWM, I played a fighter
and was perfectly happy.
I didn't actually think as most fantasy games go that it was particularly
high powered.
Ry
andrew.c.durston
> OK Andrew, Maybe I was a bit severe with your campaign. I
>missed the point, some of your players are power-gainer but not
>Munchkin... But it remains that the way you presented it was
>awfully letting me think it was munchkinism... :)
Munchkins and I'd like to think we have gone beyond that.
I was simply sharing what high level HWMs are capable of,
which can seem a bit Munchkin at times, but is certainly
high powered. They do excel as combat machines ( like
the Warrior version of Fighter ) and not at anything else.
Ignoring the reference to Bladerunes and a similar level
Fighter, constructed in the same world reference, will probably
give the HWM a run for the money.
>
> As a matter of fact, you should remove the awful HWM and
>you will see that Fighter is such a great character class...
>Terken, the Lord Fighter.
certainly could make a HWM out of a Fighter. Perhaps HWMs
are a bit much and just WMs will do. Whatever....
Til next week,
Andrew
co...@shaman.nexagen.com
If "high-powered" is "munchkin," and the game that you are playing has
some sort of experience points, character points, reward, etc. that improves
your character, making him more powerful, then it is a munchkin game.
I.E., high powered does NOT equal munchkin.
In my opinion, games cannot be munchkin, campaigns cannot be munchkin, PEOPLE
can be munchkin.
Monte
Scowling Jim Cowling
co...@shaman.nexagen.com sez:
(paraphrased)
>Games can't be muchkinised; players can be.
I disagree, as an RPG'er with almost twenty years of experience, a
game store manager with six years experience, and working knowledge of
virtually every RPG ever published. (not that this is really relevant,
but I provide it as background to show that I speak with said working
knowledge, and use it in my job and as my hobby).
If the rules of the game don't lend themselves to munchkinism, you don't
get muchkinism. If they do, you may. Typically.
Any game with a large amount of options available, with differing levels of
play balance, can be muchkinized; those that don't, (usually) won't.
Munchkin games: AD&D, Rolemaster, GURPS, Storyteller System, Hero, etc.
Non-Munchkin: Call of Cthulhu, Harnmaster, Star Trek RPG, Ars Magica,
Toon, etc.
Note: the above are opinions. IMHO, they are games which are more, or less
likely to be abused by "muchkinism". (aside: I've always hated that term.
I still prefer "power-gaming"/"power-gamer", which has since been co-opted
by marathoneers).
The more role-playing-oriented, typically, the game is, the less likely it is
to be munchkinized. There aren't a large percentage of Ars Magica players
who suffer from munchkinism. Conversely, there are a lot of Vampire players
who suffer from it (and before the Vampire players scream at me, the
Storyteller System is one of the few games I enjoy playing anymore).
IMHO, it all boils down to play balance and the emphasis on role-playing
inherent in the game system. A corollary to this is that the more rules you
have in a game, the more the players will want to make use of those rules,
taking away from the purity of the role-playing experience.
When you provide a rule, someone's going to want to use it. If it's not
balanced, and it's used (and not all GMs are steadfast in their decisions)
then munchkinism can occur. If the rules are few, then more attention is
placed on role-playing. Hence, the difference between AD&D players today,
and D&D players circa 1974. And there's a _big_ difference.
When a player sits down and makes a character and says "How can I use these
rules to my best advantage?" then you have a problem. The less options
available to that player, the better the game. This player is normally
a poor player; a good player will not NEED a whole whack of options; a good
player can create his/her own, and run them by the GM on a case-by-case basis.
Why do we need Rolemaster Companion XVIII? We don't, plain and simple.
Only munchkins do.
All IMHO. Flames to /dev/null. Or to my mailbox. Whichever. :)
Terken
>When a player sits down and makes a character and says "How can I use these
>rules to my best advantage?" then you have a problem. The less options
>available to that player, the better the game. This player is normally
>a poor player; a good player will not NEED a whole whack of options; a good
>player can create his/her own, and run them by the GM on a case-by-case basis.
>Why do we need Rolemaster Companion XVIII? We don't, plain and simple.
>Only munchkins do.
I agree at 100%.
Terken
PS : Ry, is your fighter dead ?
PPS : Ry, Eog is not the Ultimate material for weapons... :)
S Butterfield
:
: If the rules of the game don't lend themselves to munchkinism, you don't
: get muchkinism. If they do, you may. Typically.
I can't argue with this.
: Any game with a large amount of options available, with differing levels of
: play balance, can be muchkinized; those that don't, (usually) won't.
Or this.
: Note: the above are opinions. IMHO, they are games which are more, or less
: likely to be abused by "muchkinism".
Or even this!
However, no matter how much you say a particular game system lends itself
to munchkinism, the bottom line is it's down to the *players* whether
or not they play munchkin characters.
: Why do we need Rolemaster Companion XVIII? We don't, plain and simple.
: Only munchkins do.
You're right to say we don't *need* the companions, but the fact is that
many of the optional rules they present add a great deal of flavour to a
campaign, making it far more enjoyable. If that makes me and my players
munchkins, then I hold my hands up and admit it!
: All IMHO.
Granted. Anyway, it would be no fun if we all agreed all the time :-)
Stuart
ronald.k.park..jr
Hi,
I'm the aforementioned Ron (with net access). I'm one of the relative
newbies to Andrew's campaign. Now, I agree that the campaign definitely
tends towards the high end of High Fantasy (in line, I feel, with most of
the players' desire as well as the GM's), but it is certainly not a munchkin
campaign.
As a matter of fact, my first character was really quite wimpy in terms of
combat effectiveness; I was only able to attack once for every 3 or 4 times
the others did; I had few offensive spells and most of them non-damaging to
the more powerful foes we faced; and if I got hit, I stood a very good chance
of dying. Eventually, this did lead to his retirement (at the behest of his
on-again/off-again girlfriend) from the party (to return to his life of petty
cons jobs and sting operations, with any luck :D), but there was always a
place for him in the campaign, just not the front line of a battle.
The campaign was a good mix of scenarios. We easily spent as much time out
of combat (interacting with NPCs and other PCs, doing 'research', travelling,
skulking about, etc.) as in (realizing that combat takes several orders of
magnitude of real time more to resolve than non-combat activities). And this
seemed to be the mix the players (including the GM) desired.
I think the bigest difference between Andrew's campaign and a munchkin-type
campaign was/is development. That is, the world, the NPCs and especially
the PCs were all very developed. Even though it was a world of unbelievably
powerful people, creatures and 'things', it was very believable because it
all made sense in relation to everything else. There was a strong sense of
continuity and everything seemed interrelated. That is something very tough
to acheive, but it is very worthwhile. (And it comes from the work of both
the GM and the players, although 99.99% of the credit goes to Andrew.) It
was by far the best campaign I have ever been involved in and I look forward
to re-entering his world next time it's his turn to GM. And, the biggest
part of this compliment is that I strongly dislike the RoleMaster system! :D
(I'm a HERO worshipper, myself. :D)
Later,
Ron
andrew.c.durston
>
>co...@shaman.nexagen.com sez:
>(paraphrased)
>>Games can't be muchkinised; players can be.
>
>Only munchkins do.
This is about the only sentence I really object to. There tends to two sort
of material in ROCOs, optional rules variants for the core rules ( and these
one can either use or chuck ) and rules to fill in the gaps ( and these are
for campaigns, new classes, new items and new mechanics ). The latter material
is why I think we need ROCOs ( or companions for any system ) since they help
me as a GM fill gaps in the system. This is not munchkin. Any GM worth his/her
salt will beg, borrow, adapt and steal from his/her own system and any other
source. The more material to work with, especially if written for the system,
the better.
Ciao,
Andrew
robert.l.mitchell
>
>Now, now. I agree that Rolemaster is/can be a power-game ( and my game
>is on the low end of the scale ) but I don't run a "Munchkin" game and
>it certainly isn't ridiculous. ( I'm sure my players will agree as well
>especially those with net access - Nick? Rob? Ron? Jon? Ry? etc... ).
>
played in munchkin games, I've run munchkin games, I know munchkin games.
Andy, you're no munchkin gamer.
I say this as an objective, unbiased player, with perhaps the highest
level (8th) player-character HWM in his campaign. Andy is much too
concerned about plot (and taking away whatever meager crumbs of nifty
magic, money, or political favors we slave mightily for) to be accused
of munchkinism.
Rob
Terken
a High Powered Campaign if your highest PC is 8th level ?
IMHO, a 8th level adventurer is fair adventurer but he is not
very impressive. A Lord (20th level) is an impressive adventurer. If I
said Andy's campaign was a power-gaming campaign, it is just because
at average level, your PCs already have huge powers and what they could
become at lord-level is beyond my imagination. Why not running a HP
campaign at high-level, you will not need a +50 sword to have a good OB ! :)
I play in a "lord-level" campaign, we all have started a 1st level,
and we have been playing for a long time now. Some of the characters have
died (including my first one :( ) so that gives an interesting scale of
level (from 5th to 23rd !) Magic Items are rare, politic plots are more
than frequent and it's great fun ! At high-level, a magician must know
all his spells in order to be very efficient, he mustn't be any longer a
fireballer or a lightning-bolter ! There is the fun of the game. A fighter
needs more than a good OB/DB ratio to survive...
IMHO, that's a HP campaign, but it is not a munchkin one, because
there is no power-race between the players. Of course, all that depends on
the GM. If everybody has a chance to express himself, players will not try
to conquer extreme powers to impress the others... A thief with 46 ranks in
ambush (means he is 22nd lvl) needs nothing more to be a threat, a 16th
level magician, even if he has no PP multiplier is a man you should respect !
In that kind of campaign, you respect people for their omn power, not for
their obsene magic items ! :) Of course, running such a campaign is not
given to every GM... :(
I think I have some experience about high-level and high-power
campaigns and I think it is not normal to have at 8th level the powers
of a 20th level. It's no fun, because what will it be when you reach the
Lord Status ? Power must be acquired slowly even in a HP campaign... :)
Terken
Jonathan Clark
|> OK, Ok let's say Andy is not a Munchkin gamer. But how you run
|> a High Powered Campaign if your highest PC is 8th level ?
Aha! Here's the heart of the confusion. Terken defines a ``high-power''
campaign in terms of character levels, whereas Andrew and his players
(disclaimer: I'm one of them) define it in terms of what the characters
actually do. One dungeon looks much like another, even if the monsters
therein are 50th level rather than 5th, but saving kingdoms, freeing
races from slavery, dealing with politics, war, interference from sundry
gods and even day-to-day living are a real challenge.
Another reason we call his game high-powered is that it's so complex -
there are 4 (? - I've lost count) separate groups of players adventuring
in the world, all doing different things, with the results of their actions
affecting the other parties. That's an impressive achievement.
--
Jonathan Clark, Hacker-in-Residence, NCR, Lincroft, NJ, USA
The Englishman never enjoys himself except for some noble purpose.
andrew.c.durston
> OK, Ok let's say Andy is not a Munchkin gamer. But how you run
>a High Powered Campaign if your highest PC is 8th level ?
I think we are getting a wee bit confused here. I said that Rolemaster
can ( with all the ROCOs and such ) be a High Powered Game and my
campaigns are on the low end of the scale. My game might be considered
High Powered at the same relative levels, I don't know since I haven't
done any comparisions ( one anecodote: I loaned a friend a binder of
NPCs to use for a pick-up game at a convention and the GM preferred
the Non-prof NPCs to be equivalent to her core class PCs and didn't
use any mages/fighters etc. Note I think this GM used few ROCOs ).
>
> IMHO, a 8th level adventurer is fair adventurer but he is not
>very impressive. A Lord (20th level) is an impressive adventurer. If I
>said Andy's campaign was a power-gaming campaign, it is just because
>at average level, your PCs already have huge powers and what they could
>become at lord-level is beyond my imagination. Why not running a HP
>campaign at high-level, you will not need a +50 sword to have a good OB ! :)
IMHO, an 8-10th adventurer is impressive to me and my gaming world.
Now perhaps we haven't run a massive number of games over the past
few years ( my main game has run for 6+ years and 110 sessions )
and thus the levels aren't 15+ which alot of folk usually chat about.
From my perspective, the PCs at 20th would be truly epic and the world
supports that view.
>
> I play in a "lord-level" campaign, we all have started a 1st level,
>and we have been playing for a long time now. Some of the characters have
>died (including my first one :( ) so that gives an interesting scale of
>level (from 5th to 23rd !) Magic Items are rare, politic plots are more
>than frequent and it's great fun ! At high-level, a magician must know
>all his spells in order to be very efficient, he mustn't be any longer a
>fireballer or a lightning-bolter ! There is the fun of the game. A fighter
>needs more than a good OB/DB ratio to survive...
I guess all that matters is that everyone is having fun on both
sides of the Atlantic. My campaign has the same features as yours
though perhaps the magic items are just uncommon but only one true
artifact has appeared in the game time. My PCs always have to know
when to improvise and when to be straightforward in style and execution
since I am always trying to challenge them.
>
> IMHO, that's a HP campaign, but it is not a munchkin one, because
>there is no power-race between the players.
This is a fairly good definition of munchkins, those that "power-race"
each other to be the best ( usually at the expense of working with
each other and role-playing for that matter ).
>
> I think I have some experience about high-level and high-power
>campaigns and I think it is not normal to have at 8th level the powers
>of a 20th level. It's no fun, because what will it be when you reach the
>Lord Status ? Power must be acquired slowly even in a HP campaign... :)
How are the powers of an 8th or 20th level PC defined? All campaigns
have a scale and some may be greater than others. If you are saying
my 8-10s have the power of your 20s, then my scale is greater than
yours ( and my 20s will be like your 40s ). If in my world all 8-10s
are roughly alike, the then world is scaled for that power level
( and that may be HP to you and LP to others ).
What might be interesting is to take this discussion to either
e-mail or the Rolemaster mailing list ( rolem...@tidalwave.med.ge.com
or rolemaste...@tidalwave.med.ge.com for subscribing ) and
then compare characters from our campaigns ( I have several NPCs online
at the current time ). I think this perspective is needed for this
discussion to have a foundation.
Ciao,
Andrew
David R. Paoletti
: the Golden rule : you can only cast 1 spell per round even if you are
: hasted. Whatever spell you cast, even an instantaneous Bladeturn, it
: takes 75% of activity, that mean, you can not Attack but you may
: parry at 25% of your skill.
Yes, one spell per round even if hasted, adrenal, etc,
but instantaneous spells do _not_ use 75% of the action!
If they did, how would you use the Combat I spell when
you are first level? You cast a spell which gives you
+5 OB to an attack which you don't have the time to make?!
Or, you can parry at +10 to 25% of your OB?!
The point is that instantaneous spells do not use up
any action during the round in which they are cast except
for the Spell Action and Spell Results phases (1 & 2)
which means that you cannot cast another spell that round.
Dave :)
Terken
time in the same world doesn't mean a High-Powered campaign !!!
It is just that the GM can handle very complex plots. You could
have run the same with low-powered characters... Maybe with more
difficulties ! :)
In our campaign, there is also a large number of players
and it is often difficult to have everyboy play at the same time
so we must split the group in small bands, the actions of one
usually having some influence on the results of the others (hard
to explain but you get the point ;)
So having an impressive achievement in manipulating the
plots has no relation of the power of the plot.
The problem was : having a HP campaign at High or Low
(average) level....
BTW, Andrew, I think you are right and we have no need of
that Newsgroup to go on that discussion. I send you a Mail after
my next answer.
Terken
Terken
> Yes, one spell per round even if hasted, adrenal, etc,
>but instantaneous spells do _not_ use 75% of the action!
>If they did, how would you use the Combat I spell when
>you are first level? You cast a spell which gives you
>+5 OB to an attack which you don't have the time to make?!
>Or, you can parry at +10 to 25% of your OB?!
> The point is that instantaneous spells do not use up
>any action during the round in which they are cast except
>for the Spell Action and Spell Results phases (1 & 2)
>which means that you cannot cast another spell that round.
In the case of Combat I, casted at the 1st level, things
are easy to explain. Combat * lasts 1rd/lvl of the caster. So
for a 1st level character it lasts 1 rd. That means you cast
your spell at round 1, but it takes effect at round 2, where
you have 100% activity.
You will say "It's an instantaneous spell". OK, that
just mean you can cast it with no preparation, so if you are
stupid enough to cast a spell in melee, than you can cast it
every other round.
If the spell was taking effect at the round it had been
casted, that would have been a stupid useless spell. If you
were able to have a normal round after casting it, why not
casting it every round so that it will last longer... Just as
if a higher-leveled character had casted it.
So, consider it takes effect the next round. Otherwise,
a WM can cast Bladeturn every round and fight normally... Then
no need to cast Combat, since you add +100 to your DB.
The golden rule remains, 1 spell per round and casting a
spell takes 75% of activity so it is just possible to parry or
to move after casting. Unless you are hasted, and then Yes, you
can cast Combat I and fight in the same round (since you play 2
rounds in one... but still just 1 spell)
Terken
PS : do not be impress by the relative power of the Warrior Mage,
it is not that Powerful, unless at high-level... :)
Schwark R.
>a High Powered Campaign if your highest PC is 8th level ?
High Power in scope, epic, where you are key players on the field. Slavering
hordes of slavers fall before the sweep of your great axe, and the gods
themselves look down upon you, and ... well, that's the way I felt about
it. There were hundreds of forces in the world more powerful than we, but
while we were on stage, we were it.
>In that kind of campaign, you respect people for their omn power, not for
>their obsene magic items ! :) Of course, running such a campaign is not
>given to every GM... :(
I ran an fighter in Andy's campaign, I ended up with a +15 normal battle
axe, and +15 half-plate, and an assortment of SMALL magic items. trust
me, Na'Tiean was scary because he was, not because of what he had. (of
course, some would say he was scary because of his family.....)
And as for what would happen when we got to high level, Andy didn't give
out xp, we didn't ask, and it worked just fine. we had fun.
Ry
David R. Paoletti
: I play in a "lord-level" campaign, we all have started a 1st level,
: and we have been playing for a long time now. Some of the characters have
: died (including my first one :( ) so that gives an interesting scale of
: level (from 5th to 23rd !)
My old GM (who has since graduated and left) had a
good compromise for the death/retirement of a character:
have the new character start lower in level than the
one who died, but not at first level. Thus when my
6th level ranger died and everyone else was at 8th
level, I only restarted at level 5.5. If someone
at 10th level or so died, restart a full level lower,
etc.
Also, you started with much less in the way of magic
items (not that we had a lot to start with!) This
gives a sort of penalty for dying, but allows the new
character to fit in better with the rest of the party
and not die again during the first fight with something
powerful, or not even get a hit in if the party happens
to meet something weak.
Dave :)
Tony Kerstan
>
> In article <1993Sep14.2...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca> p...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Paul Lahaie) writes:
> >In article <273ugh...@shaman.nexagen.com> co...@shaman.nexagen.com writes:
> >>p...@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Paul Lahaie) writes:
> >>
(snip) (snip)
fellas, fellas, fellas;
I have been following this debate about the Rolemaster 'Arms Companion'
(which I have). And this is the answer to all your worries:
page 4, 1st para: "This material runs the gamut from play aids that make the
standard game mechanics easier to handle to VERY HIGH (in bold) powered
optional rules"
and page 5 under 1.3 ARMS COMPANION'S OPTIONAL RULES:
"We do not recommend the use of all the material within this tome at any one
time. Such use brings about a game unbalance from low level arms users who
will be made insanely powerful, and those of high level which would now be
godlike"
need I say anymore?
by the way, the background packages are only for integrating new characters
into an aready experienced group. If the group is inexperienced, then they
should just thrash it out just using the basic rules BEFORE evening touching
the companions.
But the impatience of youth for power... :-)
take it easy, and good gaming
>
>
DECOSTER Nicolas
> There are Munchkin gamers but not Munchkin games.
I agree with you , I've red all the 'RM: New rules...' posts and I think that
RM must be used with care , but a good GM can create very interresting campaign
with such a game . The problem is to choose the options that correspond to the
campaign . The different companion give so much material made by so much
different people , that all can't be used at the same time . A good example is
the warrior-mage : look its base spell list , they gather all the most usefull
spell of the mage , and he is a quite good fighter . I think that a GM should
not allow this class without thinking of the game balance .
bye.
>
> Enough ranting,
> Andrew
DECOSTER Nicolas . deco...@enserb.u-bordeaux.fr
Terken
When the RMC II was not yet existing, it was possible to allow
people casting instantaneous spells and parry or flee in the same
round since only Pure or Hybrid where able to cast "Bladeturn"
spells.
With the RMC II have appeared brutal Semis : Warrior-Mage and the
new version of the Paladin. Most of their spells are instantaneous,
so you must take care. You cannot allow a WM (or a Paladin) to cast
Bladeturn and attack in the same round, otherwise at high level, he
has 200 DB (Combat, blur, shield II, Bladeturn and Qu) without parrying !
You must consider instantaneous spells as Class I spells (it is said
somewhere in the Spell Law) that means, spells considered 6 levels
below caster (whatever his level is) so requiring no round of preparation
but submitted to every other rules applied on spells (activity...)
Don't forget that a WM's best friend is ESF ! :)
He may have en ESF because of :
- his armor, his helmet...
- no free hand...
- extra-pick (20% ESF)...
Finally, his most powerful spells have a low duration (1rd/lvl) so
if he doesn't get the advantage at the beginning of the fight, his
chances won't be good after a few round, so if you do not allow to
cast and fight in the same round, he may be dead meat ! Some may ask :
"What about his Bladeturn ?" to what I reply : "What about losing his
weapon because of a wounded arm, a fumble or a disarm... !"
I was about to forget the ridiculous range of his elemental attacks !
Ha Ha Ha.
As a conclusion, this class can be powerful in the hands of an experienced
player or with a loosy GM... :) It has a lot of Drawbacks you may not get
first when you look at it, but it is not so unbalanced... :)
Terken, Lord Fighter