Gygax's writing quality

213 views
Skip to first unread message

nigh...@slipn.com

unread,
Feb 16, 1995, 12:55:02 PM2/16/95
to
dr...@wbb.com writes:

>
> IN>health food. Gygax may have started roleplaying (except that much of the
> IN>work on D&D was done by Brian Blume and Dave Arneson), but D&D and every
> IN>game he has worked on or designed since then have been very low quality
> IN>in terms of both rules design, readability and proper grammar.
> IN> Saying that being consulted for a book by Gygax is a lofty height
> IN>is like saying that it was an honor to be consulted on the proper
> IN>spelling of a piece of graffiti on a restroom wall.
>
> What? What do YOU know about it? Actually, the Blume family ruined
> TSR, put it on a "corporate" track under which crushed any creative
> elements left (we don't know the game designers of TSR products any
> more, there are very few and they are kept anonymous wherever possible.
> TSR will keep their names off the cover if they can).
>
> And Gary Gygax did excellent work when he formed his own company, New
> Infinities Productions Inc. He turned out a number of generic game
> supplements such as TOWN OF BALDEMAR: a complete town with
> well-developed personalities long before the RPGA asked its members to

Did excellent work?!! Then why did the company fold in less than five
years? If it was that excellent, why didn't it dwarf T$R? Reason:
because the products designed by New Infinities, and by Gygax before
that, are unmitigated dreck, hackwork that doesn't follow any kind of
internally consistent logic in either game design, mechanics, or writing.
Stuff written at a level lower than that of turn-of-the-century pulp
writing. Poor mechanics, and an attitude of "this is THE ONE TRUE WAY OF
ROLEPLAYING".
I know a lot about it, Drac...I've been gaming since '77, and have
played, or at least read through, nearly every game system published
since '74. And while there were many worse than Gygax's stuff, there
were FAR MORE that are better.
And about 90% of what was in the original D&D three-book set came from
the campaigns of Brian Blume.
What it looks like to me, Drac, is that a simple hobby has become your
own private religion, and Gary Gygax is either your pope or your god.
Drac, ol' pal, you need some professional help real quick, or you will be
listed in the paper as "ROLEPLAYING GAMER SNAPS, KILLS DOZENS".
When a simple hobby becomes as important as it seems to be to you, it's
time for a reality check. (But any reality check from you would probably
bounce.)

Gary

Brandon Gillespie

unread,
Feb 18, 1995, 6:20:44 PM2/18/95
to
cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:
> nigh...@slipn.com writes:

>> dr...@wbb.com writes:
>>> And Gary Gygax did excellent work when he formed his own company, New
>>> Infinities Productions Inc. He turned out a number of generic game
>>> supplements such as TOWN OF BALDEMAR: a complete town with
>>> well-developed personalities long before the RPGA asked its members to
>>
>>Did excellent work?!! Then why did the company fold in less than five
>>years? If it was that excellent, why didn't it dwarf T$R? Reason:
>>because the products designed by New Infinities, and by Gygax before
>>that, are unmitigated dreck, hackwork that doesn't follow any kind of
>>internally consistent logic in either game design, mechanics, or writing.
>
> In part, NIPI failed because of a lack of funds. NIPI had no money with which
> to advertise. While most of the work that came out of it was, regarding RPGs,
> not so spectacular, the books that Gygax wrote were pretty darned good. The
> undead module Gygax made was good, even though *I* can't now get my hands on
> it. 8-<

Lack of funds? Sorry, don't buy it. I have seen many game companies pull
themselves from the masses with virtually no starting money. If you have a
good product and the know how to manage it, you can make something run with
only an initial loan.

Of all the stuff I have seen Gygax create, not a single bit of it would be
something any sane editor would publish. The only reason he has as much
published as there is, is because he either published it himself or knows the
editor/publisher who did publish it (or did it through TSR, which was (at the
time) basically him doing it himself). His writing style is dry and booring,
there is no consistancy or organization, it just plain sucks. Sure, this is an
opinion, but it is an opinion which is shared by a large majority of people.

(my, this feels good getting into a flame war again on rec.games.frp.* (thinks
back longingly to the days of 'rec.games.frp')).

--
/\ Brandon Gillespie (http://www.declab.usu.edu:8080/~brandon/) /\
\/ "The gene pool could use a little chlorine" \/

Chris

unread,
Feb 18, 1995, 12:12:55 PM2/18/95
to
In article <24mm1c...@slipn.slipn.com> nigh...@slipn.com writes:
>From: nigh...@slipn.com
>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: 16 Feb 1995 11:55:02 -0600

>dr...@wbb.com writes:

>> And Gary Gygax did excellent work when he formed his own company, New
>> Infinities Productions Inc. He turned out a number of generic game
>> supplements such as TOWN OF BALDEMAR: a complete town with
>> well-developed personalities long before the RPGA asked its members to

>Did excellent work?!! Then why did the company fold in less than five
>years? If it was that excellent, why didn't it dwarf T$R? Reason:
>because the products designed by New Infinities, and by Gygax before
>that, are unmitigated dreck, hackwork that doesn't follow any kind of
>internally consistent logic in either game design, mechanics, or writing.

In part, NIPI failed because of a lack of funds. NIPI had no money with which

to advertise. While most of the work that came out of it was, regarding RPGs,
not so spectacular, the books that Gygax wrote were pretty darned good. The
undead module Gygax made was good, even though *I* can't now get my hands on
it. 8-<

> I know a lot about it, Drac...I've been gaming since '77, and have

>played, or at least read through, nearly every game system published
>since '74. And while there were many worse than Gygax's stuff, there
>were FAR MORE that are better.

Since this is little more than you stating your opinion....

> And about 90% of what was in the original D&D three-book set came from
>the campaigns of Brian Blume.

And this is something to hold up as laudable? Mayhaps for its time, but
certainly not for the '90's and beyond...

Best,

Chris


The world is full of kings and queens
Who blind your eyes then steal your dreams
It's heaven and hell

They'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
It's heaven and hell

Bod

unread,
Feb 20, 1995, 6:25:51 AM2/20/95
to
In article <3i97r4$n...@hermes.unt.edu> la...@ulantris.csci.unt.edu (Lane) writes:

> And DnD is just a piece of artwork? Please, DnD is a piece of shit. Its
> rules have close to zero consistency, and the only reason it is around still
> is because T$R can throw money into flashy productions and outsue and buy
> out its competitors.

And how did it get the money to "throw into flashy productions"
and "outsue" and "buy out" its competitors, pray tell?

(And exactly which competitors has it bought out, anyway?)

--
Bod
b...@hogshead.demon.co.uk
"I have so much to do that I am going to bed" --- fortune cookie, 26:AUG:94

Chris P McKinnon

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 4:40:44 AM2/21/95
to
Bod (b...@hogshead.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: (And exactly which competitors has it bought out, anyway?)

SPI - Publishers of DragonQuest... Bought it out, re-released DragonQuest
3rd Ed. (candy coated again - nothing nasty), and then made the game into
a board game...

--
==============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmck...@uoguelph.ca =
==============================================================================

Jonas Carlsson

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 6:00:44 AM2/21/95
to
In article 793304...@hogshead.demon.co.uk, b...@hogshead.demon.co.uk (Bod) writes:
its competitors, pray tell?
>
> (And exactly which competitors has it bought out, anyway?)
Well: SPI for one... Also, they've 'bought off' Mayfair and GDW (settled out of court, and bought their entire stock of the 'offending' products.)

Jonas

John Martin Karakash

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 2:21:26 PM2/21/95
to

|>> And DnD is just a piece of artwork? Please, DnD is a piece of shit. Its
|>> rules have close to zero consistency, and the only reason it is around still
|>> is because T$R can throw money into flashy productions and outsue and buy
|>> out its competitors.
|>
|>And how did it get the money to "throw into flashy productions"
|>and "outsue" and "buy out" its competitors, pray tell?


Actually, the reason for TSR's extreme longevity is its
position as the first major role-playing game. It's hard to
beat momentum like that. They have a large budget for advertising
and their name (among the unenlightened) is virtually synonymous
with roleplaying.
TSR actually has bought out one or two lines (Dragonquest
being the only one to come to mind on short notice). But their
main method is simply using up retailer's RPG budgets with
'sure sellers'. But I don't blame the retailers or TSR for this!
And they haven't sat on their hands, either! The more
experienced gamers were 'graduating' to other games and this
worried them a lot. So they have tried to widen their appeal
with new gaming worlds that offer real depth (or at least a
change of pace). They have also marketed quite a few non-D&D
style games over the years to keep people 'within the family'.
So to summarize my opinions: They got the money by
being first, and then good marketing after the takeover. (According
to a never-to-be-named TSR employee, Dragonlance and that vampire
module saved the company). They're staying on top due to momentum,
a strong push to novice gamers and a diversifying to keep older
gamers.

-john 'no longer owns any of their games at all...' karakash-
--

Bod

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 9:20:57 PM2/23/95
to
In article <3ich4s$h...@antares.lu.erisoft.se> jc7...@um.erisoft.se writes:
> In article 793304...@hogshead.demon.co.uk, b...@hogshead.demon.co.uk (Bod) writes:
> > (And exactly which competitors has it bought out, anyway?)
> Well: SPI for one...

Okay, I'll give you SPI. I'd forgotten all about them. Not exactly
recent, was it?

> Also, they've 'bought off' Mayfair and GDW (settled out of court,
> and bought their entire stock of the 'offending' products.)

Okay, the cases never came to court and so whether the products
concerned were "offending" or not will never be official (but I
think we can safely say that one was and one wasn't, but not
necessarily in that order), but that's not buying out the
competition, that's acquiring product lines from them.

TSR is not a voracious company. In the whole history of the RPG
industry, the fact that there's been only one notable buy-out/
take-over by the biggest company in the field is remarkable. But
then, why should they? The only games systems which prove any kind
of real threat to the market dominance of D&D/AD&D are the ones
which actively challenge its trademarks.

Ronald Copley

unread,
Mar 2, 1995, 2:06:20 PM3/2/95
to
In article <793304...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>, b...@hogshead.demon.co.uk (Bod) writes:
> In article <3i97r4$n...@hermes.unt.edu> la...@ulantris.csci.unt.edu (Lane) writes:
>
>> And DnD is just a piece of artwork? Please, DnD is a piece of shit. Its
>> rules have close to zero consistency, and the only reason it is around still
>> is because T$R can throw money into flashy productions and outsue and buy
>> out its competitors.
>
> And how did it get the money to "throw into flashy productions"
> and "outsue" and "buy out" its competitors, pray tell?
>
> (And exactly which competitors has it bought out, anyway?)

I agree... I think "DnD" is too nebulous a term here. I still play, and enjoy,
the original ('74) rules, and find the boxed sets (Basic, Expert, et alia) to
be a rather good product. Now, this isn't to say that TSR's output of the last
5 or so years has been worth a plug nickel, but their older products do stand
out, I feel. Perhaps TSR is just feeling the glut of a satiated market?

--
Informatiks |
Ronald Copley, owner | Buying and selling small to medium
1010 Township RD 78W | quantities of used Pyramid, Sun,
Scottown OH 45678-9051 | DEC (PDPs) and Data General computer
+1.614.643.1340 | equipment. Trades welcome!!
(evenings, please) |
--

woodelf

unread,
Mar 2, 1995, 10:18:58 PM3/2/95
to
In article <Rslgw*q...@valinor.hna.com.au>
ma...@valinor.hna.com.au (Jason Mulligan) writes:

> In article <1995Feb18.1...@cc.usu.edu>, Brandon Gillespie writes:
>
> > Of all the stuff I have seen Gygax create, not a single bit of it would be
> > something any sane editor would publish. The only reason he has as much
> > published as there is, is because he either published it himself or knows the
> > editor/publisher who did publish it (or did it through TSR, which was (at the
> > time) basically him doing it himself). His writing style is dry and booring,
> > there is no consistancy or organization, it just plain sucks. Sure, this is an
> > opinion, but it is an opinion which is shared by a large majority of people.
>

well, my only exposure to his writings consists of the 1st ed. AD&D,
basic and expert set D&D, Danjerous Journeys, and a couple of Dragon
editorials. I'd say that he has two writing styles, both of which have
deteriorated over the years. AD&D DMG is the best of the ones i've
seen (though not the oldest), and DJ is the worst. his informal style,
as found in editorials, was obviously formed by reading way too much
Stan Lee as a kid, but as a Hulk and Spiderman fan, i can certainly
tolerate it. His formal style, as exemplified by the original DMG, was
a masterpiece of language (not necessarily, comprehensibility or
literature, just raw language). He used (correctly, i might add)
grammatical constructions that one is hard pressed to find outside of a
Latin textbook. And he used a phenomenal vocab (especially for a
9yr-old). The two of those together forced me to vastly stretch my
reading abilities, which fact i am reminded of frequently by RPG rules
and my mechanics textbook. sure it was obtuse, but it was proper
english, something that most of my peers in the U.S. have never been
exposed to. it meant that when i got to Shakespeare, my roleplaying
friends and i were a leg up on the language. i have to thank him for
the language lessons, while at the same time admitting that it did not
make for the most readable game. but i personally prefer it to the
other extreme: colloquialisms and slang, barely agreeing with a high
school english book, and violating the MLA guidelines (all too common
among RPG books, especially modern ones). on the other hand, i know
that you can have too much of a good thing. the same style, perhaps
grown even more stylized over the years, when added to the ridiculously
complex rules of DJ, made for an unintelligible rule book.

woodelf
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
woo...@picard.cs.wisc.edu
http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf

Derrick Arnold

unread,
Mar 5, 1995, 4:43:23 AM3/5/95
to
Although I am not championing EGG's writing quality, I totally agree with the
last poster. Being in the 3rd grade and reading RPG rule books (well D&D was
the only RPG I knew of back then) totally extended my vocabulary. I had to
look plenty of words up to understand what was going on. I know that my
gaming friends had pretty much the same experience.

rev. roy crisman

unread,
Mar 5, 1995, 1:15:25 PM3/5/95
to

Then again, I greatly improved and expanded my vocabulary in 3-5th
grades by reading science fiction. So, is this an instance of 'we owe
E.G.G. soooo much' or 'Young kids getting involved in 'adult(not sex)'
literature are bound to improve their reading/vocab. skills'?

My guess would be the later.

roymeo
.sigs suck

Brian Christopher Misiaszek

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 9:55:18 AM2/23/95
to

>In article <1995Feb18.1...@cc.usu.edu>, Brandon Gillespie writes:

>> Of all the stuff I have seen Gygax create, not a single bit of it would be
>> something any sane editor would publish. The only reason he has as much
>> published as there is, is because he either published it himself or knows the
>> editor/publisher who did publish it (or did it through TSR, which was (at the
>> time) basically him doing it himself). His writing style is dry and booring,
>> there is no consistancy or organization, it just plain sucks. Sure, this is an
>> opinion, but it is an opinion which is shared by a large majority of people.

>Well, I for one have enjoyed several (at least) products that he has made.
>When I was younger I remember fondly the series of Greyhawk novels (Gord
>the Rogue, etc). Also, the Greyhawk campaign was VERY enjoyable and there
>are several adventures that I remember with GREAT fondness (Temple of
>Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, and The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth).

I'll stick my oar in the water and agree. When Gary Gygax began developing
what became known as D&D, he was breaking new territory. RPGs simply didn't
exist when he began writing, and he helped to evolve an entirely new pasttime.
D&D originated out of the amateur wargame school of writing, and its various
creators (Gygax, Arneson, etc.) weren't established authors, nor did they have
degrees in English literature. They also banged out much of their writing on
typewriters, wordprrocessors and all their advantages being quiteuncommon
back in 1975. He helped create the very standards in role-playing games that
he is now ironically being measured against.

That being said, I'll also admit a nostalgic fondness to Gygax's writing. It
was very much like reading a letter written by a favourite uncle. Sure, his
writing is rough around the edges, and has too many "gentle readers", and
other irritating quirks. But that didn't matter to me, when I first began
gaming as a teenager. I was more interested in the furious richness of ideas
he presented, of the entire concept of creating an interactive fantasy with
the help and imagination of my friends. I devoured the little D&D booklets,
swallowed whole the DMG, the MM and the PHB. I enjoyed playing in adventure
modules written by Gygax such as "The Village of Hommlet", "Tomb of Horrors",
etc. I even appreciated little touches like the recommended fantasy reading
list he provided in the DMG. The tone was friendly, helpful, and most of all,
sincere.

It's not fair to judge a seminal work by the same standards of others who
have the luxury to profit from past mistakes. The state of the art for
RPGs has moved on, and for myself personally, xD&D doesn't cut it. But that's
not to deny the impact that Gygax and his creation has made. It's curious to
see someone complaining that "no sane editor" would publish his writings, yet
his same efforts helped to create the largest RPG company in the world. For
such an editor, there was a method to his madness; people paying money hand
over fist to purchase his RPG gaming materials. RPGs and the quality of the
finished product have certain evolved since those three little booklets first
came out, but of late it can be argued that most of that change is more a
matter of style over substance.


Follow-ups to r.g.f.advocacy

::Brian::

John M. Ford

unread,
Mar 7, 1995, 1:31:08 AM3/7/95
to
In <3jc13r$3...@nic-nac.CSU.net> arnoldd@fuller (Derrick Arnold) writes:

That's a good and positive thing. The trouble is that poor ole Gary
rarely understood any of the difficult words, and especially the archaic
ones, he was using; he just looked up obsolete words in the dictionary
and plugged them in, often without even noticing that they came from
vastly different parts of the world.

This kind of carelessness in game writing leads to things like the idea,
still very common among people who get their history from Dund, that all
medieval weapons had precise names. This simply isn't true; a "morning
star" might be anything with spikes sticking out of it, with or without a
length of chain. (What Dund insists is the True and Only Morningstar is
more accurately a "horseman's flail" -- it was short, so you could use it
from the saddle -- but even this is a general term, not a precise one.)
And the exact distinction between a glaive, a guisarme, and a voulge
exists only in poor ole Gary's mind. There were a nearly infinite
variety of polearms -- some variation of a knife, claw, rake, or mallet
on a long pole, often a variation of an agricultural tool. You can see
this variation in any good collection of archaic weapons, such as the
superb one at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

To be fair, some of this was not so much any person's "fault" as a result
of early Dund's attempt to cram all of history and folklore, from the
ends of the earth and the Iron Age to the late Renaissance, into one
allegedly consistent background where everybody could get into a fight
with everybody else. This was never going to work beyond the level of
low comedy, and TSR has moved away from it (though Dangerous Journeys
took several long and unnecessary steps back).

And often Gygax would just wing it, with unintentionally hysterical
results: I remember a story I was given to copyedit, where, during a
banquet scene, someone fell into a huge "bowl" of plum pudding, which
splashed all over. Now, English plum pudding isn't like Jell-O Pudding;
it's more like a fruitcake, and certainly doesn't splash. Is this
important? Not on the cosmic scale, no, but writers do have a certain
minimum obligation to get their facts right.

I have nothing personally against Gary Gygax; he's been rather put upon
lately. But the notion that he's a good, or even ordinarily competent,
fantasy author, just will not stand up.

Mitchell J. Gross

unread,
Mar 7, 1995, 4:54:59 PM3/7/95
to
In article <1995Mar2.150620@hobbit>,

Ronald Copley <cop...@marshall.edu> wrote:
>
>I agree... I think "DnD" is too nebulous a term here. I still play, and enjoy,
>the original ('74) rules, and find the boxed sets (Basic, Expert, et alia) to
>be a rather good product. Now, this isn't to say that TSR's output of the last
>5 or so years has been worth a plug nickel, but their older products do stand
>out, I feel. Perhaps TSR is just feeling the glut of a satiated market?

In January, I was visiting friends in Boston who still play D&D quite a
bit. We played Dark Sun one night, and Masque of the Red Death the other.

It's been years since I played D&D (advanced or otherwise) and I really
enjoyed it! We just had a lot of fun! :)

I might not want to play D&D exclusively, but I certainly won't say no to
playing it again...

-`---,---'-,---`---`--'--,--`-'-,--`--'--,---`--'-,--`-'-,--,-'-`--'-,-`--,---
Mitchell J. Gross * VISIONARY GAMES * m...@io.com * AOL: VisionaryG
http://www.io.com/user/mjg/visionary/
ftp.indiana.edu/pub/doc/camarila/Visionary/
"God does not play at dice." - Albert Einstein
--'---,---'---,--`--'-,-'-`---'-,--`-'---,---'-----,---'---`---'-,-`-`-'---,--

Jonathan Brazell

unread,
Mar 7, 1995, 2:21:13 PM3/7/95
to
In article <roymeo.7...@des1.iastate.edu> roy...@iastate.edu (rev. roy crisman) writes:

>Then again, I greatly improved and expanded my vocabulary in 3-5th
>grades by reading science fiction. So, is this an instance of 'we owe
>E.G.G. soooo much' or 'Young kids getting involved in 'adult(not sex)'
>literature are bound to improve their reading/vocab. skills'?
>
>My guess would be the later.

Actually I have read a great deal of Gygax's writings, and I find it of a high
quality, even though it is a bit on the advanced side. Gygax assumes you have
a large vocabulary and a logical and ordered mind, unfortunatly, we in america
have been shown that everthing is written in a level an 8th grader could
understand, some of Gygax's writings require a much higher level of
understanding. I understood DJ, although I didn't much care for the system,
it was too technical. If you have ever read any of his novels, you would know
that his writing is of a good quality, just hard to understand, but so was
Asimov's.

-Jonathan Brazell

Anthony Ragan

unread,
Mar 8, 1995, 5:01:00 AM3/8/95
to
In article <jbrazell....@scsn.net>,
jbra...@scsn.net (Jonathan Brazell) writes:

>
>Actually I have read a great deal of Gygax's writings, and I find it of a high
>quality, even though it is a bit on the advanced side. Gygax assumes you have
>a large vocabulary and a logical and ordered mind, unfortunatly, we in america
>have been shown that everthing is written in a level an 8th grader could
>understand, some of Gygax's writings require a much higher level of
>understanding. I understood DJ, although I didn't much care for the system,
>it was too technical. If you have ever read any of his novels, you would know
>that his writing is of a good quality, just hard to understand, but so was
>Asimov's.

"Advanced" isn't a word I would use to describe Gygax's writings.
"Florid," "turgid," and "clumsy" all spring to mind at first thought.
As for his vocabulary, it looks as if ne never got past the freshman
trick of looking through the thesaurus to find a cool-looking
synonym as a substitute for a perfectly acceptable word.
I still gag over "dweomercraefter."

And I've read his novels. (The Gord stuff. Not anything more recent)
They're dreck. The characters were one-dimensional and they read like
nothing but game-session fluff. And to compare his writings to
Asimov's is ludicrous. One of Asimov's key principles was "clarity
of expression." Gygax has never heard of the concept.

--Anthony
ecz...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu -OR- Iris...@aol.com
Rune Chia Pet of Ernalda, Snotling in Chief
(followups to .advocacy, just in case.......)

Chris

unread,
Mar 9, 1995, 5:51:09 PM3/9/95
to
In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org> jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford) writes:
>From: jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: 7 Mar 95 06:31:08 GMT

>In <3jc13r$3...@nic-nac.CSU.net> arnoldd@fuller (Derrick Arnold) writes:

>That's a good and positive thing. The trouble is that poor ole Gary
>rarely understood any of the difficult words, and especially the archaic
>ones, he was using; he just looked up obsolete words in the dictionary
>and plugged them in, often without even noticing that they came from
>vastly different parts of the world.

And considering that he was writing ***fiction*** just what in the hell does
this have to do with the quality of his writing?

>This kind of carelessness in game writing leads to things like the idea,
>still very common among people who get their history from Dund, that all
>medieval weapons had precise names. This simply isn't true; a "morning
>star" might be anything with spikes sticking out of it, with or without a
>length of chain. (What Dund insists is the True and Only Morningstar is
>more accurately a "horseman's flail" -- it was short, so you could use it
>from the saddle -- but even this is a general term, not a precise one.)
>And the exact distinction between a glaive, a guisarme, and a voulge
>exists only in poor ole Gary's mind. There were a nearly infinite
>variety of polearms -- some variation of a knife, claw, rake, or mallet
>on a long pole, often a variation of an agricultural tool. You can see
>this variation in any good collection of archaic weapons, such as the
>superb one at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

Again, your need for reality-basis in a fantasy setting is hopelessly
idealistic. Fantasy yarns often thumb their noses at reality, like when they
report magic to be real. Besides, it made for easier classification, which is
a necessity for game mechanics.

In short, let's not lose sight of what Gygax (and Arneson) developed the game
for. They did it to recreate the fantasy yarns of Tolkien, Howard and Lieber.
None of those authors can be considered to have been too overtly reality-based.

>To be fair, some of this was not so much any person's "fault" as a result
>of early Dund's attempt to cram all of history and folklore, from the
>ends of the earth and the Iron Age to the late Renaissance, into one
>allegedly consistent background where everybody could get into a fight
>with everybody else. This was never going to work beyond the level of
>low comedy, and TSR has moved away from it (though Dangerous Journeys
>took several long and unnecessary steps back).

No attempt was made to be historically accurate for the real world. so your
assumption falls falt on its face, chum.

>I have nothing personally against Gary Gygax; he's been rather put upon
>lately. But the notion that he's a good, or even ordinarily competent,
>fantasy author, just will not stand up.

I guess that depends upon what criterion you are judging him by. I felt no
sense of being talked down to by Gary whenever I read anything, whether a
novel or a rulebook. He has a fertile imagination, something not everybody
has, or can out to use so well as he has.

When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the right to
criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.

woodelf

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 5:07:00 AM3/10/95
to
In article <cgvang.23...@access.digex.net>
cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:

> No attempt was made to be historically accurate for the real world. so your
> assumption falls falt on its face, chum.
>

the original complaint was that it attempted to cram all of the
possibilities of history into one reality. maintaining internal
consistency becomes the problem, not historical accuracy.

Shawn Metcalf

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 6:59:41 PM3/10/95
to
In article <3jq9ch$i...@hppadbk.waterloo.hp.com>, ev...@waterloo.hp.com
(Jonathan Evans) wrote:

> >In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org> jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John
M. Ford) writes:
> >>I have nothing personally against Gary Gygax; he's been rather put upon
> >>lately. But the notion that he's a good, or even ordinarily competent,
> >>fantasy author, just will not stand up.
> >

> >When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the
right to
> >criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.
>

> Boy, are *you* going to feel silly if the "John M. Ford" you are responding to
> turns out to be the one who won the World Fantasy Award for "The Dragon
> Waiting" some years back. :)

Plus, if this is the John M. Ford I think it is, he's also kicked EGG's
ass in the world of game writing as well with the brilliant "Yellow
Clearance Black Box Blues" for _Paranoia_.

--

Shawn Metcalf DeadB...@aol.com

CEO, Omni Gaming Products

Tim Dunn

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 2:01:26 PM3/10/95
to
Chris <cgv...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>>From: jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford)
>When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the right to
>criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.

Actually, I'd wager that Mr. Ford has written far more than you realize:
he's the author of _The Final Reflection_, one of my favorite Star Trek
novels (now out of print). I've read Ford's stuff, and I've read EGG's,
and I'd rather read more of Ford's material anyday.

One final word: please know what you are talking about and who you are
talking to before you flame. A mis-directed flame like this one only
shows you to be a fool.

--
Laws of Japanese Animation: [by rshellit|dbr...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu]
#3 - Law of Sonic Amplification, First Law of Anime Accoustics
In space, loud sounds, like explosions, are even louder because there is
no air to get in the way.

Jonathan Evans

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 2:30:25 PM3/10/95
to
>In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org> jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford) writes:
>>I have nothing personally against Gary Gygax; he's been rather put upon
>>lately. But the notion that he's a good, or even ordinarily competent,
>>fantasy author, just will not stand up.
>
>When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the right to
>criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.

Boy, are *you* going to feel silly if the "John M. Ford" you are responding to


turns out to be the one who won the World Fantasy Award for "The Dragon
Waiting" some years back. :)

Jon

Chris

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 5:48:39 PM3/10/95
to
In article <tdunnD5...@netcom.com> td...@netcom.com (Tim Dunn) writes:
>From: td...@netcom.com (Tim Dunn)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:01:26 GMT

>Chris <cgv...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>>>From: jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford)
>>When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the right to
>>criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.

>Actually, I'd wager that Mr. Ford has written far more than you realize:
>he's the author of _The Final Reflection_, one of my favorite Star Trek
>novels (now out of print). I've read Ford's stuff, and I've read EGG's,
>and I'd rather read more of Ford's material anyday.

Your opinion, not mine. I probably read the book, as I read most of the ST
drivel. more for fandoms sake than anything else. Pulp is dead, long live
pulp. Most of the stuff that comes out of the ST line *is* pulp. (Good
training ground, but hardly literary giants.)

And, just to clarify my muddled post, my reference to accomplishments was
meant to include the breadth of Gygax's accomplishments, which, fan of him or
not, surely surpasses John M. Ford's.

>One final word: please know what you are talking about and who you are
>talking to before you flame. A mis-directed flame like this one only
>shows you to be a fool.

A fool, or just uninformed? I *was* unaware of what Mr. Ford has done, but
that just means that his work is of less notice than others, if to no one
else, than to me. As I read many books in a year, I buy a variety, mostly
based upon my own expectations from the cover and the blerb, with more weight
going to the blerb.

I tend more toward Science Fiction than Fantasy, but I read/buy these two
genres virtually exclusively. Having read much of the dross, and a bit of the
truly good stuff, I'd have to class Mr. Ford, ***as far as my own personal
tastes go*** as dross. If you disagree, so be it. But he hasn't captured my
attention, so that's the way it goes.

Best,

Chris

Chris

unread,
Mar 10, 1995, 5:50:58 PM3/10/95
to
In article <3jq9ch$i...@hppadbk.waterloo.hp.com> ev...@waterloo.hp.com (Jonathan Evans) writes:
>From: ev...@waterloo.hp.com (Jonathan Evans)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: 10 Mar 1995 19:30:25 GMT

Not in the least. One award does not a phenim make. While Mr. Ford may be an
author in his own right, I must submit that he has not the staure in the
public mind that Gygax does. Gygax's accomplishments outweigh one award.

Best,

Chris

Paul Andrew King

unread,
Mar 11, 1995, 1:03:19 PM3/11/95
to

For your information John M. Ford *is* a good fantasy and sf author. In
that field his accomplishments definitely surpass Gygax's. I think an
apology is in order.

He's written some rather good gaming material too (Yellow Clearance Black
Box Blues and GURPS Time Travel for example).

Paul K.

MORNINMAN

unread,
Mar 11, 1995, 4:07:43 PM3/11/95
to
cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) said:

>And, just to clarify my muddled post, my reference to accomplishments was

>meant to include the breadth of Gygax's accomplishments, which, fan of
him or
>not, surely surpasses John M. Ford's.

You're kidding, right? Gary Gygax certainly isn't a great writer,
something Mr. Ford most certifiably is. When it comes to gaming
accomplishments I'd say from the standpoint of quality that he outshines
Mr. Gygax by an order of magnitude. Gary's main claim to fame is that he
helped start the FRPG business. Is there anything else he's done that I'm
not aware of?

>I tend more toward Science Fiction than Fantasy, but I read/buy these two

>genres virtually exclusively. Having read much of the dross, and a bit of
the
>truly good stuff, I'd have to class Mr. Ford, ***as far as my own
personal
>tastes go*** as dross. If you disagree, so be it. But he hasn't captured
my
>attention, so that's the way it goes.

If you enjoy SF I can wager you'll love his work. Look for it and I think
you will be very pleasantly surprised. BTW, if you can't remember reading
anything he's written how can you possibly characterize his work as dross?
His books may not have had the excessive marketing needed to capture many
readers attention, but that's hardly indicative of the quality of his
work.

Cordially,
MM


Wires? We don't need no stinkin' wires. - Marconi
H and D Entertainment / Zap-Attack Radio Prep Services
Email: MORN...@aol.com FUN 1...@aol.com
This worker drone does not express the opinions of the hive. Buzz off.

Geoffrey Sears

unread,
Mar 11, 1995, 4:19:06 PM3/11/95
to
Does anyone out there know of any fantasy role playing game which was
designed specifically for playing via the mail? Is it posted on
Internet, is it free? I am starting a PBeM campaign and was looking for
ways other people have dealt with this medium.

Thanks in advance,
Geoff

Pardoz

unread,
Mar 11, 1995, 8:39:17 PM3/11/95
to
In article <cgvang.24...@access.digex.net>,
Chris <cgv...@access.digex.net> wrote:

>And, just to clarify my muddled post, my reference to accomplishments was
>meant to include the breadth of Gygax's accomplishments, which, fan of him or
>not, surely surpasses John M. Ford's.

Congratulations on posting the single most aggressively stupid article
it has been my (dubious) pleasure to see in a couple of years of
following Usenet.

John M. Ford

unread,
Mar 12, 1995, 3:38:25 AM3/12/95
to
cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:


>>Boy, are *you* going to feel silly if the "John M. Ford" you are responding to
>>turns out to be the one who won the World Fantasy Award for "The Dragon
>>Waiting" some years back. :)

>Not in the least. One award does not a phenim make. While Mr. Ford may be an
>author in his own right, I must submit that he has not the staure in the
>public mind that Gygax does. Gygax's accomplishments outweigh one award.

To keep the record straight, it's -seven- awards:

World Fantasy Award for Best Novel 1984 and Best Short FIction 1989
Origins Best RP Supplement and Select Award, 1986
Origins Best RP Supplement 1991
Rhysling for SF/Fantasy Poetry, 1989 (with five more nominations,
including this year's as yet undecided award)
Philip K. Dick Award for Best Original Paperback, 1994

I was only a finalist for the Nebula (and the Minnesota Book Award, and
another Origins Award), and am pleased to share credit
with Steve Jackson for the third Origins/Game Designers' Guild Award.
Oh, and the second WFA and the Rhysling were for the same piece, if that
affects the judges' count.

Now what was that you were saying about "breadth" of accomplishment?

I'm not interested in your "respect," "Chris," as it seems to me entirely
valueless. But I have not lied about Gary's work (you may disagree with
my opinions, but I have NOT lied), and I insist that people not lie about
mine.

Nick Eden

unread,
Mar 12, 1995, 5:13:16 AM3/12/95
to

Firstly I'm not convinced that you've read the book. I agree with you
about the vast bulk of Star Trek Novels. Most of them seem to be dull.
Nothing there to inspire me to dedicate enough time to read them when I
could be reading something worth while.

'A Final Reflection,' is worth while.

Its got to be one of the cleverest books of it's style - about an alien
race rather than specifically Star Trek ever written. Mote in God's Eye
is better, but that's not much of a condemnation.

For that matter, John M's other Trek Novel, 'How Much for Just the
Planet' is one of the most supremely silly books I've ever read. Perhaps
not Terry Pratchett class, but certainly better than Robert Rankin or Tom
Holt or any of the rest of the humerous fantasy crowd clinging to
Pratchett's coat tails.

Don't get me started on Gygax. Kicking a man when he's down just isn't
entertaining.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was the better swimmer:
(a) The Great Seal?
(b) The Spanish Armadillo
(discuss)

Chris

unread,
Mar 12, 1995, 7:23:48 AM3/12/95
to
In article <3jt3ev$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> morn...@aol.com (MORNINMAN) writes:
>From: morn...@aol.com (MORNINMAN)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: 11 Mar 1995 16:07:43 -0500

>cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) said:

>>And, just to clarify my muddled post, my reference to accomplishments was

>>meant to include the breadth of Gygax's accomplishments, which, fan of
>him or
>>not, surely surpasses John M. Ford's.

>You're kidding, right? Gary Gygax certainly isn't a great writer,
>something Mr. Ford most certifiably is. When it comes to gaming
>accomplishments I'd say from the standpoint of quality that he outshines
>Mr. Gygax by an order of magnitude. Gary's main claim to fame is that he
>helped start the FRPG business. Is there anything else he's done that I'm
>not aware of?

There are far too many of the early great TSR modules with Gary's name on them
for this statement to be true. Temple of Elemental Evil is just one among
many. But remember, we're talking about opinions here. Yours isn't empirically
right, just right for you. Coincidentally, the same applies to me.

>>I tend more toward Science Fiction than Fantasy, but I read/buy these two
>>genres virtually exclusively. Having read much of the dross, and a bit of
>>the truly good stuff, I'd have to class Mr. Ford, ***as far as my own
>>personal tastes go*** as dross. If you disagree, so be it. But he hasn't
>>captured my attention, so that's the way it goes.

>If you enjoy SF I can wager you'll love his work. Look for it and I think
>you will be very pleasantly surprised. BTW, if you can't remember reading
>anything he's written how can you possibly characterize his work as dross?
> His books may not have had the excessive marketing needed to capture many
>readers attention, but that's hardly indicative of the quality of his
>work.

The assumption that if you like a genre you'll like an author in that genre is
not fact. I stated that I didn't remember his name from the Star Trek novel
line. I went back into my boxed up stuff and looked for anything with Mr.
Ford's name on it. I found one book, and I had to go back and read a couple of
chapters to get a feel for the story. While I would not class it as a bad
story, neither is it anyting more than anything else that comes out for that
line- pulp, purely and simply.

As for how I can class his work as dross if I don't remember it, that failure
to capture my attention is in and of itself an indictment.

I'll always remember Heinlein and Donaldson. Who can say about any others?
(NOTE: The above were used as a way of showing, by example, that Mr. Ford is
not in the same class as those two authors, but a couple of orders or more
beneath them.)

Chris

unread,
Mar 12, 1995, 7:26:01 AM3/12/95
to
In article <3jtjc5$6...@pentagon.io.com> par...@pentagon.io.com (Pardoz) writes:
>From: par...@pentagon.io.com (Pardoz)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: 11 Mar 1995 19:39:17 -0600

How so. Bring up facts to support your position,oh trollman. All you've stated
is an opinion, nothing more. And if you turly don't care to, then makeno more
comments of such inane quality.

Marlin Frederick, Jr.

unread,
Mar 12, 1995, 6:46:29 PM3/12/95
to
jmf...@pentagon.io.com (John M. Ford) wrote:
>cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:

[pat on the back deleted]

I believe the interesting part of Chris's post was his attack on your
dislikes of Gygax's writing. Toss out the opinion stuff. Originally he
he claimed that there is no need for a work of fiction to be accurate in terms
of the real world. You were attacking Gygax's writing because he:

>rarely understood any of the difficult words, and especially the archaic
>ones, he was using; he just looked up obsolete words in the dictionary
>and plugged them in, often without even noticing that they came from
>vastly different parts of the world.

>This kind of carelessness in game writing leads to things like the idea,


>still very common among people who get their history from Dund, that all
>medieval weapons had precise names. This simply isn't true; a "morning
>star" might be anything with spikes sticking out of it, with or without a
>length of chain.

These two statements on your part are rather misguided. If you read fiction
and expect it to be historically accurate then who is the fool?
To set the record straight, I've read some of both of your works.
Both I felt were lacking although I prefer yours (I say this to indicated my
bias). Secondly, half the awards you lay claim to wouldn't even exist if it
weren't for Gygax's work in founding the hobby. Because of that whether or
not his work has been critically recognized, I feel his accomplishments
easily outshine yours. I don't remember which writer is attributed to this
paraphrased quote (Steven King?), but "A writers success is determined solely
by his sales." I wouldn't mind seeing a comparision of how many copies of
your work are in print and how many copies of Gygax's works are in print. Do
you care to give us your numbers?


--
Marlin Frederick, Jr.
mar...@bga.com

Pardoz

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 2:18:13 AM3/13/95
to
In article <cgvang.26...@access.digex.net>,
Chris <cgv...@access.digex.net> wrote:

>In article <3jtjc5$6...@pentagon.io.com> par...@pentagon.io.com (Pardoz) writes:

>>In article <cgvang.24...@access.digex.net>,
>>Chris <cgv...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
>>>And, just to clarify my muddled post, my reference to accomplishments was
>>>meant to include the breadth of Gygax's accomplishments, which, fan of him or
>>>not, surely surpasses John M. Ford's.
>
>> Congratulations on posting the single most aggressively stupid article
>>it has been my (dubious) pleasure to see in a couple of years of
>>following Usenet.
>
>How so.

Consider, for a moment the accomplishments of the two men in question.

Gygax's primary accomplishment is historical - he was one of the
creators of D&D, something for which he deserves due credit (although I
tend towards the Fortean hypothesis on the issue of the arrival of RPGs
as currently understood). His actual skill as a game designer, however,
is minimal - consider that he was responsible for not only the merely
awful "Cyborg Commando" but also the truly abysmmal "Dangerous Journeys"
(aka "Spawn of Fashaan for the 90s"). In addition to his game designs,
he also cranked out several poorly-written (I use the word advisedly -
try looking up some of the words he misuses sometime) fantasy novels.

Ford, on the other hand, in addition to his acclaimed work in
game design (I'll hold YCBBB up against E. Gary's entire published
output) is an accomplished and award-winning novelist, having published
SF, fantasy, and "mainstream" works to considerable critical acclaim, to say
nothing of his poetry, his work in theatre, etc.

Gygax is, perhaps, a more significant figure in the development
of RPGs, but in the broader scheme of things his accomplishments pale by
comparison.

Paul Andrew King

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 3:28:06 AM3/13/95
to

In article <cgvang.24...@access.digex.net> cgv...@access.digex.net

(Chris) writes:
>In article <3jq9ch$i...@hppadbk.waterloo.hp.com> ev...@waterloo.hp.com
(Jonathan Evans) writes:
>
>>In article <cgvang.23...@access.digex.net> cgv...@access.digex.net
(Chris) writes:
>>>In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org> jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M.
Ford) writes:
>>>>I have nothing personally against Gary Gygax; he's been rather put upon
>>>>lately. But the notion that he's a good, or even ordinarily competent,
>>>>fantasy author, just will not stand up.
>>>
>>>When your accomplishments surpass his, maybe you will have earned the right
to
>>>criticize. Until then, junior, go back and practice.
>
>>Boy, are *you* going to feel silly if the "John M. Ford" you are responding
to
>>turns out to be the one who won the World Fantasy Award for "The Dragon
>>Waiting" some years back. :)
>
>Not in the least. One award does not a phenim make. While Mr. Ford may be an
>author in his own right, I must submit that he has not the staure in the
>public mind that Gygax does. Gygax's accomplishments outweigh one award.

As an *author* Gygax's stature is zero. Has he even been *considered* for
any award for his fiction ? John M. Ford is not a "big name", but he is
recognised as a talented writer.
As a *game designer* Gygax is better known, but only because his name
happened to be on the cover of the first successful RPG. I've really
seen no evidence that he's a *good* games designer.

Paul K.

John M. Ford

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 6:15:04 AM3/13/95
to
In <3k010h$g...@giga.bga.com> mar...@bga.com (Marlin Frederick, Jr.) writes:

> I believe the interesting part of Chris's post was his attack on your
>dislikes of Gygax's writing. Toss out the opinion stuff. Originally he
>he claimed that there is no need for a work of fiction to be accurate in terms
>of the real world. You were attacking Gygax's writing because he:

>>rarely understood any of the difficult words, and especially the archaic
>>ones, he was using; he just looked up obsolete words in the dictionary
>>and plugged them in, often without even noticing that they came from
>>vastly different parts of the world.

>>This kind of carelessness in game writing leads to things like the idea,
>>still very common among people who get their history from Dund, that all
>>medieval weapons had precise names. This simply isn't true; a "morning
>>star" might be anything with spikes sticking out of it, with or without a
>>length of chain.

>These two statements on your part are rather misguided. If you read fiction
>and expect it to be historically accurate then who is the fool?

You are, if you think "historical accuracy" means that the book must -be-
history. (You and Chris share a bad habit of mis-stating the terms of
discussion.)

I expect fiction to make sense. I expect it to be historically
accurate -when it uses objects and events for which there is a
historical basis,- and to create a believable and consistent rationale
when there is not, or when, for story reasons, the author diverges from
them. We know a significant amount about the
technology of medieval weapons, why they were designed as they were, how
they operated. If you are going to put swords and bows into a novel,
then you are obligated either to understand how swords and bows work and
present them accurately, or to invent a technology of weapons that is
logically consistent, and makes sense to the people who know how the real
technology works. (It's no trick at all to convince the people who don't
know any better.)

Crap fantasy (of which there are many practitioners) uses items with
known properties and characteristics in ways that those items were never
able to operate -- the half-hour sword fight, the horse that can gallop
for twelve hours -- without providing a context in which these
impossibilities can take place, or at best, saying "well, it's magic and
magic can do anything."

Chris dragged Judy Tarr into the discussion. Judy is a professional
historian (in addition to a superlative novelist). If you think she has
any patience with writers who get their details wrong -- well, that's
something else you're ignorant of.

> To set the record straight, I've read some of both of your
works.

What record? Nobody asked you.

>Secondly, half the awards you lay claim to wouldn't even exist if it
>weren't for Gygax's work in founding the hobby.

The game design awards, maybe (the WFA is as old as Dund, and older than
its successful phase). Also irrelevant. Gary's been
just as eligible to win awards as I have -- he just hasn't.

Because of that whether or
>not his work has been critically recognized, I feel his accomplishments
>easily outshine yours.

I see. You're dismissing what I've done, and praising Gary for what he
might have done, or was present while others did.

I don't remember which writer is attributed to this
>paraphrased quote (Steven King?), but "A writers success is determined solely
>by his sales." I wouldn't mind seeing a comparision of how many copies of
>your work are in print and how many copies of Gygax's works are in print. Do
>you care to give us your numbers?

It's amusing, if tiresome, to watch you kiddies change the rules every
ten minutes. I point out that Gary is a careless and technically inept
writer (which are incontrovertible facts, technical research and the
rules of English not being matters of opinion) and Chris says I can't
criticize him because I haven't written anything. (I notice that neither
you nor Chris have ever provided any evidence of YOUR credentials as anything.)
So I establish that I have credentials, and honors, and Chris announces
that I don't have as much "breadth" as Gary does.
I then provide proof that I've been successful in half a dozen areas,
most of which Gary isn't even competing in, and you pop up to say it
doesn't count unless I have larger net sales.
I suspect that if I established that I -was- Steve King, you'd claim it
didn't count because I wasn't also Tom Clancy and Anne Rice.

You will note, of course, that the quote says "success;" it says nothing
whatsoever about literary quality. THE BELL CURVE and THE CELESTINE
PROPHECY have both sold carloads, and are both absolute dungheaps of
intellectual dishonesty (and, in the case of CELESTINE, truly awful prose).
(No, boys, I'm not going to argue this point.)
Tolkien was not widely read -- not just "not a
bestseller" -- until the late great Ian Ballantine figured out how to
sell him to the American masses. McDonald's serves a million people,
Lutece and the Palm serve a few; are the burgers really better?

I am acquainted with Stephen King, thank you (he was a great gentleman
when I beat him out for my first WFA, and helped me celebrate) and I can
tell you for an absolute fact that he does not confuse sales figures with
talent and skill.

Obviously, you're not really interested in "proof" of anything; you'll
just keep raising the stakes until you "establish" that there's something
Gary did that I haven't. Let me save you the trouble: he has more
children than I do.

But since we've come this far: DRAGON WAITING has about 40,000 copies in
print
(six thousand in hardcover) in English, about 10K more in the foreign
editions. The Treks are at roughly 300,000 each. No figures yet on my
latest novel, but Easton Press shipped 1500 signed-limiteds at something
like
$40 a throw, and it was on the Locus bestseller list for three months in
trade pb and another couple in mass-market. The total for solo
books, leaving aside something over a hundred magazine and anthology
publications, is a little over a million copies.
Now, we're comparing this to Gary's -fiction,- right? Though that does
stack up pretty well against the Dungeon Master's Guide. And of course,
these books are entirely -my- work; the DMG is mostly other people's.
GURPS TIME TRAVEL sold out of its first printing fairly promptly, too,
and seems to be doing okay in its second (plus, again, the
foreign-language editions....) My last two novel advances (which are a
primary indicator of, not just sales, but the publisher's faith and
confidence) were
for $30,000 each, which is not spectacular, but is more than respectable.

Now I suppose you're going to accuse me of bragging.

The truth is that I could hardly care less about your opinion, or
Chris's, even if you eventually dredged up a fact to support it; I have
the respect of people whose judgement and standards I -do- value -- good
friends like Poul Anderson and Gene Wolfe, Steve Donaldson and Steve
Brust (who, by the way, is a regular in my role-play sessions), Steve Jackson
and Greg Costikyan, Chris Claremont and Neil Gaiman (with whom I'm at
work on several projects -- not too bad for such an underachiever, hm?),
and, hey there Chris-boy, Parke Godwin (check out INVITATION TO CAMELOT)
and Judy Tarr.
If you have any further questions, ask one of -them- about me. (Or look
at the quotes on DRAGON or GROWING UP WEIGHTLESS.) I have
work to do, and no more time to waste on schoolboys who measure the world
by their ignorance of it.

Diane Kelly

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 10:58:12 AM3/13/95
to
Look, Ford is not saying that Gygax is a bad person, nor is he even
claiming to be a better writer than Gygax. All he's saying is that
Gygax's writing style sucks pus. That happens to be true. Having a
thesaurus and using obscure words is not good writing. Gygax has
accomplished some important things -- founding the hobby which is now my
profession, for one -- but he is not a good writer.
John M. Ford has not founded any hobbies, but he writes well.
That doesn't mean he's a better person than Gygax, merely a better
writer. Consider this: most of Gygax's work was published by a company
owned by Gygax. Ford actually sells to editors at major publishing houses.

Enough of this foolery! Let's get back to important issues, like what's
the coolest card in the Fallen Empires deck.

Jim Cambias
Former Editor
Misusing My Wife's Internet Access
At Duke

Shawn Metcalf

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 6:24:59 PM3/13/95
to
In article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.950313...@raphael.acpub.duke.edu>, Diane
Kelly <dke...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:


> Enough of this foolery! Let's get back to important issues, like what's
> the coolest card in the Fallen Empires deck.

Thelonite Monk. It makes all those cards from Legends with Forestwalk
useful, plus the name has a double meaning that most Magic gamers won't
get. That's cool.

John M. Ford

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 9:22:43 PM3/13/95
to
Diane Kelly <dke...@acpub.duke.edu> writes:

>Enough of this foolery! Let's get back to important issues, like what's
>the coolest card in the Fallen Empires deck.

Wouldn't that have to be the "My Empire's Fallen, and It Can't Get Up?"

Roger Christie

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 5:02:04 PM3/13/95
to
In article <3k010h$g...@giga.bga.com> mar...@bga.com (Marlin Frederick, Jr.) writes:
>From: mar...@bga.com (Marlin Frederick, Jr.)

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 23:46:29 GMT

>jmf...@pentagon.io.com (John M. Ford) wrote:
>>cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:

>[pat on the back deleted]

> To set the record straight, I've read some of both of your works.


>Both I felt were lacking although I prefer yours (I say this to indicated my
>bias). Secondly, half the awards you lay claim to wouldn't even exist if it
>weren't for Gygax's work in founding the hobby. Because of that whether or
>not his work has been critically recognized, I feel his accomplishments
>easily outshine yours. I don't remember which writer is attributed to this
>paraphrased quote (Steven King?), but "A writers success is determined solely
>by his sales." I wouldn't mind seeing a comparision of how many copies of
>your work are in print and how many copies of Gygax's works are in print. Do
>you care to give us your numbers?

Oh please. Anb enormous measure of Gygax's success was due to his luck
at being in the right place at the right time with a mediocre product (not even
his alone) that happened to fill a niche ready to explode. The notion
that the FRPG business would not have followed a similar course without
his esteemed contributions is laughable, as is his writing.

His writing, simply put, is wretched.

As is his ego.

Matthew C. Guenther

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 10:15:38 AM3/13/95
to
In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org>,
John M. Ford <jmf...@freedom.mtn.org> wrote:
<<<much stuff deleted>>>

>It's amusing, if tiresome, to watch you kiddies change the rules every
>ten minutes. I point out that Gary is a careless and technically inept
>writer (which are incontrovertible facts, technical research and the
>rules of English not being matters of opinion) and Chris says I can't
>criticize him because I haven't written anything. (I notice that neither
>you nor Chris have ever provided any evidence of YOUR credentials as anything.)
>So I establish that I have credentials, and honors, and Chris announces
>that I don't have as much "breadth" as Gary does.
>I then provide proof that I've been successful in half a dozen areas,
>most of which Gary isn't even competing in, and you pop up to say it
>doesn't count unless I have larger net sales.
>I suspect that if I established that I -was- Steve King, you'd claim it
>didn't count because I wasn't also Tom Clancy and Anne Rice.

This is just TOOO ripe. For an obvious cheap shot.
NOONE (except maybe drac) would claim EG Gygax is a great writer technically
or "historically" consistant. I personally enjoyed reading the first two
"Gord the Rogue" books. At the time I read them I was suffering from
major Role Playing Burnout and they reminded me of some of the fun earlier
campaigns. Yes, you could hear the dice roll as you read but to me that
was part of the charm and fun of the books. The later ones were just
tiresome to me but I read them anyway (series completion syndrome).

Yes, Gygax does NOT have a lot of breadth. He writes ADND and solely ADND.
And in my opinion was fairly adept at that one specific point of writing.
His strongpoint (flamesuit on) IMHO was writing modules. The Modules have
a very "finished" feel for the most part and are fairly consistant within
their own little world. I say this in reflection on the most recent attempts
at TSR writing within Greyhawk (TM). Like how all the new "good" leaders
are universally inept and stupid, all of the armies involved suddenly increased
by an average factor of five from the earlier works, and how little piddly
countries suddenly overwhelm stronger and more well organized countries,
(where balance had been held for quite some time).

Also you critize a man who writes in a sub-genre/system where a "hero"
or "high level character" can take many ballista bolts/sword strikes/
minutes of standing in burning oil/100' falls to kill. GEEZE!!!!!
Your whole "historically accurate" argument falls apart right there.
I mean that we are NOT TALKING HISTORICAL here, but a pulp fantasy fiction
game, Ever read Fritz Lieber, Edgar Rice Burroghs (and his 2000' tall trees),
or David Eddings. Historically accurate, NOT!!!

I mean, a reality based game would be NO fun (or for that matter a very
reality based fiction book). In the real world 14 pounds of force applied
to a knee can permanently cripple someone. You can kill someone with one
blow from a pencil (a well aimed one albeit) let alone a sword or ballista
"bolt". You can even get killed by a well aimed blow to the nose (drives
nasal bone into brain).

>But since we've come this far: DRAGON WAITING has about 40,000 copies in
>print
>(six thousand in hardcover) in English, about 10K more in the foreign
>editions. The Treks are at roughly 300,000 each. No figures yet on my
>latest novel, but Easton Press shipped 1500 signed-limiteds at something
>like

Sounds like to me that you don't like Gary Gygax's writing style, or Genre
and feel personally insulted by someone saying they like his writing better
than yours and try and validate yourself by showing how many books you have
sold and how many awards you have won. F*cking grow up. Not everyone
will like you no matter who you are or how well you write. I mean really,
if you are so insecure as to attack a "much" lesser writer then maybe you
could take a clue from that. I mean really, If you are threatened by
Gygax's fiction (at best entertaining but average) then maybe you are
no better a writer than him.

I personally have not read any of your books and would now have to seriously
consider before buying one of your books because you really come off as a
petty and immature person (something I can't support or condone in an adult).
Yeah, maybe us kids (if published (poetry) author age 27 is a kid to you)
change the rules at every reply. But then why do you really GIVE a rats
buttocks what a handful of people with too much time on their hands have
to say about you, your writing, or whatever. GEEZ you are a professional
most of the rest of us aren't!!!

Or is it personal. "I hate EGG"! I couln't agree more. The guy is a
royal jerkoff. I met him and my friend at the game store had to deal with
him. The guy is a weirdo/jerk. (Friend had a poorly ventilated basement
store, great atmosphere, and no smoking, EGG was going to stomp out if he
couldn't smoke down there, was really thick by the end of the day and ALL
the books smelled for weeks after that).

(pressure once again at a safe level)
Matt

Marlin Frederick, Jr.

unread,
Mar 13, 1995, 11:17:19 PM3/13/95
to
jmf...@freedom.mtn.org (John M. Ford) wrote:
>In <3k010h$g...@giga.bga.com> mar...@bga.com (Marlin Frederick, Jr.) writes:
>
>> I believe the interesting part of Chris's post was his attack on your
>>dislikes of Gygax's writing. Toss out the opinion stuff. Originally he
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>he claimed that there is no need for a work of fiction to be accurate in terms
>>of the real world. You were attacking Gygax's writing because he:

You seemed to have missed this part. I was dismissing Chris's opinion of
the quality of either of your works to be just that, opinion.

>You are, if you think "historical accuracy" means that the book must -be-
>history. (You and Chris share a bad habit of mis-stating the terms of
>discussion.)

I don't see how I misstated the terms of the discussion. You commented
that books of fiction MUST be historically accurate to be quality writing if they
have any reference to historical events or objects. I disagree with this.

>I expect fiction to make sense. I expect it to be historically
>accurate -when it uses objects and events for which there is a
>historical basis,- and to create a believable and consistent rationale
>when there is not, or when, for story reasons, the author diverges from
>them. We know a significant amount about the
>technology of medieval weapons, why they were designed as they were, how
>they operated. If you are going to put swords and bows into a novel,
>then you are obligated either to understand how swords and bows work and
>present them accurately, or to invent a technology of weapons that is
>logically consistent, and makes sense to the people who know how the real
>technology works. (It's no trick at all to convince the people who don't
>know any better.)

I can't believe you said this considering you have written for Star Trek.
There is very little that is consistent in that setting. It has rules but not
consistancy. It doesn't mean your work or that of any others is any poorer for it.

>Crap fantasy (of which there are many practitioners) uses items with
>known properties and characteristics in ways that those items were never
>able to operate -- the half-hour sword fight, the horse that can gallop
>for twelve hours -- without providing a context in which these
>impossibilities can take place, or at best, saying "well, it's magic and
>magic can do anything."

I couldn't agree with you more on this point. When I read fiction, I'll
except most anything as long as it is well supported and consistant with the rest
of the writing.

>Chris dragged Judy Tarr into the discussion. Judy is a professional
>historian (in addition to a superlative novelist). If you think she has
>any patience with writers who get their details wrong -- well, that's
>something else you're ignorant of.

Just my point. When I read fiction I don't care if it is historically
correct. Why do you feel it must be? Why would my ignorance of Judy's patience
enter into this discussion? Seems like a childish barb to me.

> > To set the record straight, I've read some of both of your
>works.
>
>What record? Nobody asked you.

I was trying to indicate my personal opinion that your writing is better.
When you posted this in public you did ask me and everyone else reading this
newsgroup. Again you are starting to seem a bit childish.

>>Secondly, half the awards you lay claim to wouldn't even exist if it
>>weren't for Gygax's work in founding the hobby.
>
>The game design awards, maybe (the WFA is as old as Dund, and older than
>its successful phase). Also irrelevant. Gary's been
>just as eligible to win awards as I have -- he just hasn't.
>
> Because of that whether or
>>not his work has been critically recognized, I feel his accomplishments

>>easily outshine yours. ^^^^^^

Notice how I worded it to stress it was only my opinion.

>I see. You're dismissing what I've done, and praising Gary for what he
>might have done, or was present while others did.

I was only indicating that some of the prestige you flout is do in part to
at least to his work. I would also like to know why you feel qualified to say
that Gygax put his name on what was mostly other people's work. I know he didn't
develop it in a vacuum but it is arguable that neither was much of your writing.
In either case it doesn't detract from your work or his.

> I don't remember which writer is attributed to this
>>paraphrased quote (Steven King?), but "A writers success is determined solely
>>by his sales." I wouldn't mind seeing a comparision of how many copies of
>>your work are in print and how many copies of Gygax's works are in print. Do
>>you care to give us your numbers?
>
>It's amusing, if tiresome, to watch you kiddies change the rules every

^^^^^^^
Another childish barb. I only sought to quantify this disagreement and
sales seemed like a reasonable figure of merit. I would also agree that the awards
you hold verses the lack of Gygax's awards is also a reasonable figure of merit.

>ten minutes. I point out that Gary is a careless and technically inept
>writer (which are incontrovertible facts, technical research and the
>rules of English not being matters of opinion) and Chris says I can't
>criticize him because I haven't written anything.

I did not agree with Chris on this point and I do recognize your writings
and even claimed them to be better in _my_ opinion.

> (I notice that neither
>you nor Chris have ever provided any evidence of YOUR credentials as anything.)

My credentials don't fall in the area of writing but I am fairly well
educated since you asked. I have a BS and a MS in Electrical Engineering, both
from very well ranked institutions. I am published but only my masters thesis
and that doesn't really count because all universities publish their master theses.
I have done some significant research and contributed to the design of a couple of
successful microprocessors. It may be my knowledge of physics that always causes
me to laugh at most writers attempt to use principles of physics in their writings.
On the other hand my writing skills are very poor camparied to my skills with hard
sciences. That not withstanding my writing skills are better than most.

>So I establish that I have credentials, and honors, and Chris announces
>that I don't have as much "breadth" as Gary does.

I again didn't agree with Chris here and dismissed Chris's comments as his
opinion.

>I then provide proof that I've been successful in half a dozen areas,
>most of which Gary isn't even competing in, and you pop up to say it
>doesn't count unless I have larger net sales.

The number of areas you are successful in is a moot point to the arguement,
and I only suggested net sales as a figure of merit.

>I suspect that if I established that I -was- Steve King, you'd claim it
>didn't count because I wasn't also Tom Clancy and Anne Rice.

This is purely irrelevent. This is also when you start to argue with
passion and not logic. I think this is obvious in the preceeding statement.

>You will note, of course, that the quote says "success;" it says nothing
>whatsoever about literary quality. THE BELL CURVE and THE CELESTINE
>PROPHECY have both sold carloads, and are both absolute dungheaps of
>intellectual dishonesty (and, in the case of CELESTINE, truly awful prose).
>(No, boys, I'm not going to argue this point.)
>Tolkien was not widely read -- not just "not a
>bestseller" -- until the late great Ian Ballantine figured out how to
>sell him to the American masses. McDonald's serves a million people,
>Lutece and the Palm serve a few; are the burgers really better?

I haven't read either of the two books you mentioned so I won't comment on
either of them. It is reasonable to argue that McDonald's hamburgers are better.
They sell many more and not because they taste better but because they taste good
enough and are much cheaper. This arguement doesn't really hold water with books
though, since they are pretty much equally priced. I assume you would attribute
your lower sales to the idea that most people are morons. Why else would they buy
more of an inferior product at equal price? This now becomes a discussion of the
short comings of my suggested "figure of merit".

>I am acquainted with Stephen King, thank you (he was a great gentleman
>when I beat him out for my first WFA, and helped me celebrate) and I can
>tell you for an absolute fact that he does not confuse sales figures with
>talent and skill.

I wasn't sure if he was the author of the quote I paraphrased and I even
said such.

>Obviously, you're not really interested in "proof" of anything; you'll
>just keep raising the stakes until you "establish" that there's something
>Gary did that I haven't. Let me save you the trouble: he has more
>children than I do.

I didn't raise any stakes. I merely suggested a quantitative figure of
merit. I suspect the reason you were so inflamed about it is that you are bothered
by him having greater sales. (I don't know if his sales are greater I'm just
assuming this.) Does someone have Gygax's sales figures for his novels and for
his games? I would prefer it to be broken down if possible.

>But since we've come this far: DRAGON WAITING has about 40,000 copies in
>print
>(six thousand in hardcover) in English, about 10K more in the foreign
>editions. The Treks are at roughly 300,000 each. No figures yet on my
>latest novel, but Easton Press shipped 1500 signed-limiteds at something
>like
>$40 a throw, and it was on the Locus bestseller list for three months in
>trade pb and another couple in mass-market. The total for solo
>books, leaving aside something over a hundred magazine and anthology
>publications, is a little over a million copies.

Thank you. This is all I asked. It seems you are doing quite well and
I congratulate you on your success even though you have not shown me very much
courtesy in your reply and don't care what my opinion is. I'm not quite sure why
you don't care about my opinion since I am one of your readers. (i.e. I'm one of
those that contributed to your aforementioned sales figures.)

>Now, we're comparing this to Gary's -fiction,- right? Though that does

Actually I was intending to compare all of your writings to all of Gygax's
writings.

>stack up pretty well against the Dungeon Master's Guide. And of course,
>these books are entirely -my- work; the DMG is mostly other people's.
>GURPS TIME TRAVEL sold out of its first printing fairly promptly, too,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In my opinion your best work even counting your works of fiction. You did
an excellent job with a tough subject.

>and seems to be doing okay in its second (plus, again, the
>foreign-language editions....) My last two novel advances (which are a
>primary indicator of, not just sales, but the publisher's faith and
>confidence) were
>for $30,000 each, which is not spectacular, but is more than respectable.

From what I know that's much more than respectable. I'm basing that off of
information from a couple of friends who are trying to make their way as writers.

>Now I suppose you're going to accuse me of bragging.
>
>The truth is that I could hardly care less about your opinion, or
>Chris's, even if you eventually dredged up a fact to support it; I have

I produced only two opinions in my previous post. One said that in my
opinion your writing is better. I have no facts to support it, but I did state
it was my opinion. The second was that I felt that Gygax's contributions were
greater. In this case, I presented a quantitative means to measure the validity
of my opinion, and then I asked for facts. It is reasonable to attack my figure of
merit and I'm glad you did.

>the respect of people whose judgement and standards I -do- value -- good
>friends like Poul Anderson and Gene Wolfe, Steve Donaldson and Steve
>Brust (who, by the way, is a regular in my role-play sessions), Steve Jackson
>and Greg Costikyan, Chris Claremont and Neil Gaiman (with whom I'm at
>work on several projects -- not too bad for such an underachiever, hm?),
>and, hey there Chris-boy, Parke Godwin (check out INVITATION TO CAMELOT)
>and Judy Tarr.

When it comes to fiction I feel the vote of the masses outweights the voice
of a few experts. After all when everything is opinion, the only thing that really
counts is how many people share your opinion. If you want to state the quality of
a piece of fiction is an objective matter and not a subjective one, then we
disagree on some very fundamental ground. I would even welcome a private
discussion of this bit of philosophy.

>If you have any further questions, ask one of -them- about me. (Or look
>at the quotes on DRAGON or GROWING UP WEIGHTLESS.) I have
>work to do, and no more time to waste on schoolboys who measure the world

>by their ignorance of it. ^^^^^^^^^^

I guess you felt the need to produce one last childish outburst before
finishing. Do you have a good reason for it or did it just make you feel better?
I wish you wouldn't have resorted to little statements like that. While reading
your response and found myself agreeing with pieces here and there, but then you
would say something like that and reduce your credibility.

David R. Henry

unread,
Mar 14, 1995, 4:07:31 PM3/14/95
to
John M. Ford writes:

A nice post, and quite reasonable, but one comment:

>It's amusing, if tiresome, to watch you kiddies change the rules every
>ten minutes. I point out that Gary is a careless and technically inept
>writer (which are incontrovertible facts, technical research and the
>rules of English not being matters of opinion

Well, no, actually, that's wrong. The Rules of English are a matter
of opinion. If they weren't, we'd all still be reading Beowulf in its
original tongue and understanding it without footnotes. Aside from
that, though, good post. I certainly won't argue that Gary Gygax
is anything but an inept writer, though, by whatever English opinion
you hold. :-)

--
David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club // Cthulhu! Cthulhu! Cthulhu! And Cthooky!
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS / What was the question? -- Kate Bush
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Evolution: Give it some time, it'll grow on ya.

Thomas McCambley

unread,
Mar 14, 1995, 4:16:56 PM3/14/95
to
In a previous posting, Shawn Metcalf (DeadB...@aol.com) writes:
> In article
> <Pine.ULT.3.91.950313...@raphael.acpub.duke.edu>, Diane
> Kelly <dke...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Enough of this foolery! Let's get back to important issues, like what's
>> the coolest card in the Fallen Empires deck.
>
> Thelonite Monk. It makes all those cards from Legends with Forestwalk
> useful, plus the name has a double meaning that most Magic gamers won't
> get. That's cool.

Just a guess here, is it Thelonious Monk (sp) the jazz/blues musician?

Does it show I play Magic? ;-)
Cya

--
**************************************************************************
| Thom McCambley |"I'm a Time Lord, Not a Bank Manager..." |
| NCF Star Wars SIG guru | 5th Doctor - The Crystal Bucephalus |
| Harried BSc student |******* at...@freenet.carleton.ca *********|

Chris

unread,
Mar 14, 1995, 3:42:16 PM3/14/95
to
In article <D5BoE...@cix.compulink.co.uk> phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Nick Eden") writes:
>From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Nick Eden")

>Subject: Re: Gygax's writing quality
>Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 10:13:16 GMT

>> two genres virtually exclusively. Having read much of the dross, and a
>> bit of the truly good stuff, I'd have to class Mr. Ford, ***as far as my
>> own personal tastes go*** as dross. If you disagree, so be it. But he
>> hasn't captured my attention, so that's the way it goes.
>> > Best,
>> > Chris

>Firstly I'm not convinced that you've read the book. I agree with you
>about the vast bulk of Star Trek Novels. Most of them seem to be dull.
>Nothing there to inspire me to dedicate enough time to read them when I
>could be reading something worth while.

>'A Final Reflection,' is worth while.

Your opinion only, and so you only get to vote once- for yourself.

Justine Rogers

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 2:59:51 AM3/15/95
to
In article <DeadBoy101-13...@a1ppp20.globalcom.net>
DeadB...@aol.com "Shawn Metcalf" writes:

> In article
> <Pine.ULT.3.91.950313...@raphael.acpub.duke.edu>, Diane
> Kelly <dke...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > Enough of this foolery! Let's get back to important issues, like what's
> > the coolest card in the Fallen Empires deck.
>
> Thelonite Monk. It makes all those cards from Legends with Forestwalk
> useful, plus the name has a double meaning that most Magic gamers won't
> get. That's cool.

Ebon Praetor - Because it's got a bunny rabbit on it.
Question: Some of the runesword cards have a hairline on them, some of them
don't. The distribution seems to be about equal is this deliberate, and do you
think that collectors would pay more for the pair?
--
"A small boring constellation with no interesting features" "I am a figment of
my own imagination" "But Officer, its only a supermoronic Drac."
Meaningless quotes and beliefs brought to you by: jus...@pepin.demon.co.uk

Brandon Gillespie

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 12:29:53 PM3/15/95
to
cgv...@access.digex.net (Chris) writes:
> Your opinion only, and so you only get to vote once- for yourself.

But you are somehow exhempt from this "only vote once" clause you pulled out of
your butt? I'm assuming such is the case because in telling John that he can
only have opinions on his own work you also turn around and say that you think
Gary Gygax's work is worthwile.

Hypocrite

--
/\ Brandon Gillespie (http://www.declab.usu.edu:8080/~brandon/) /\
|| "They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape ||
\/ those who dream only by night." - Edgar Allan Poe \/

Ken Walton

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 11:18:12 AM3/15/95
to
In article <jmford.7...@news.mtn.org>

jmf...@freedom.mtn.org "John M. Ford" writes:
> Obviously, you're not really interested in "proof" of anything; you'll
> just keep raising the stakes until you "establish" that there's something
> Gary did that I haven't. Let me save you the trouble: he has more
> children than I do.

Not only that, but his work contains more dungeons than all yours put together.
That's the only mark of artistic integrity in my opinon. If it hasn't got a
dungeon in it, it's not art, and its not sucessful. So there. :-)

(I was about to defend your corner, but you beat me to it.)

--
---
Ken Walton

New .sig required.
Apply to above address giving details of previous experience.

Michael J Conard

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 1:50:17 PM3/15/95
to
I find it difficult to believe what I am reading. I wonder if anyone
one this list who is relentlessly beating on Gygax's works has actually played
in any of the adventures he wrote, with at least a semi-functional GM. Temple
of Elemental Evil, the Slaver series, and the Demon Queen series were the most
exciting and among the most interesting adventures I have yet to play or run.
I have been in this game more than ten years and I have NEVER seen a
module/series better than Gary's. This is to say nothing of his writing the
game the started what is responsible for the existence of this forum, your
game, and all the games it spawned/inspired.
Additionally, one individual labelled the Mythus system an "abyssmal"
game. I have to wonder if this individual has actually played or read or spent
more than thirty seconds on the game. His assessment of Cyborg Commando is
closer to the mark, but Mythus is EASILY superior in overall design and details
than his older AD&D system. I abondoned AD&D in disgust several years ago, and
tried to write my own system, when Lo!, Dangerous Journeys was released and my
problems were solved. One of the biggest reasons D&Ders stay D&Ders is that
they have thrown so much money into the thing, dropping the system would lose
them money, time--its apain learning a new system, so on. There are problems
with the system, but there are problems with every system, no-one is perfect or
can satisfy everyone. Those who are placing the works of some individuals on a
pedestal while denigrating the works of others would do well to remember this.
It seems to me that this discussion has become less a critical
evaluation of the works of authors, and more a mudslinging contest. I must
profess to know almost nothing of Mr. Ford's works, and I am therefore
unqualified to make any statements in that regard. Gary has had some good Gord
stories, but I wouldn't say that he is my favorite author.
Gary's strengths are is vivid imagination, his creativity and ability
to design masterful and exciting adventures and game systems. Everyone reading
this posting and playing a game of this type is in debt to Gary Gygax, and
would do well to remeber that.

Mike
Con...@watmail.ucr.edu

P.S. There are few things uglier than pride

Kevin Mowery

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 3:11:23 PM3/15/95
to
Michael J Conard (con...@watnxt01.ucr.edu) wrote:
: exciting and among the most interesting adventures I have yet to play or run.
: game the started what is responsible for the existence of this forum, your
: game, and all the games it spawned/inspired.
Yes, Gygax wrote some good modules. Occasionally I pull them out
when I'm stuck for ideas (and I'm playing AD&D), but really, is writing a
dungeon adventure all that difficult?
Gygax may be one of the pioneers of the gaming field, but that
doesn't make him immune from criticism. To say that he should be lauded
for great writing or masterful game design (I've even abandoned 1st
edition AD&D in favor of the slightly less nonsensical 2nd edition) is
like saying that George Washington, because he's known as father of the
country, should be considered not only a great general and president) but also a great
diplomat, economist, and the discoverer of the New World.
: Additionally, one individual labelled the Mythus system an "abyssmal"
: game. I have to wonder if this individual has actually played or read or spent
: more than thirty seconds on the game. His assessment of Cyborg Commando is
: closer to the mark, but Mythus is EASILY superior in overall design and details
: than his older AD&D system. I abondoned AD&D in disgust several years ago, and
My personal experience with Mythus is that it took a long time to
make up a character, most of the magic system was ill-explained until the
second book (Mythus magic) came out, despite magic being an integral part
of the game, the index was more arcane than anything found in the
background (which was also ill-defined, but explained more in the
supplement "Epic of Aerth"--but by the time that came out we'd all gotten
disgusted with the system), and the concept of Vril, which was mentioned
in a couple of places, was never implemented or explained. In addition,
the introductory adventure rated so low, IMHO, that the space taken up by
it would have been better used to add more magic or background to the
game. It consisted of little more than the GM reading off huge tracts of
text and then a small fight which was so pathetic that the game was
obviously intended to run in a direction more linear than most of Gygax's
fiction. In addition, the game was filled with useless jargon (like STEEP
levels) in an effort to distance itself from AD&D. The only thing I'd
call it a step forward in for games was price (with all three books, we're
talking somewhere around $70+ dollars), far more than the startup cost for
AD&D...
--
Kevin Mowery --- kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
---
Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations...

Chris

unread,
Mar 15, 1995, 1:45:53 PM3/15/95
to
In article <3k7hlb$g...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery) writes:
>From: kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery)

>levels) in an effort to distance itself from AD&D. The only thing I'd
>call it a step forward in for games was price (with all three books, we're
>talking somewhere around $70+ dollars), far more than the startup cost for
>AD&D...

Excuse me? To properly play AD&D, you need a PHB, a DMG and a MM. That will
cost you $63, MSRP. How is there a difference in cost to get into the system?
(Mind you, $7 is splitting hairs, but if you compare what you're getting,
maybe *that's* where a qualifiable difference is...)

Best,

Douglas L. Vandenburgh

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 2:30:03 AM3/16/95
to
Michael J Conard (con...@watnxt01.ucr.edu) wrote:
: I find it difficult to believe what I am reading. I wonder if anyone
: one this list who is relentlessly beating on Gygax's works has actually played
: in any of the adventures he wrote, with at least a semi-functional GM. Temple
: of Elemental Evil, the Slaver series, and the Demon Queen series were the most
: exciting and among the most interesting adventures I have yet to play or run.

Ahem. You might find it interesting to read Dragon Magazine from a few months
back, wherein one of the writers there tells about how they came up with
the idea for the Slaver series. Big hint, Gary didn't think of it.

: P.S. There are few things uglier than pride

And Mythus is one of them. ;)

- Doug

James Calabro

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 8:01:12 AM3/16/95
to
Chris (cgv...@access.digex.net) wrote:

: Best,


--
To start to play SRII or SRI you only need $25.
=========================================================================
"We could change things back. If we believed. If we dreamed. We are the
dreams of the carrion kind, they say, and prehaps it is so. But if enough
of us dream...if a bare thousand of us dream...we can change the world.
We can dream anew!-From A Dream Of A Thousand Cats
=========================================================================
James Calabro
a017...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

Stephen Takacs (GE)

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 9:17:17 AM3/16/95
to

On 16 Mar 1995, James Calabro wrote:

> : >levels) in an effort to distance itself from AD&D. The only thing I'd
> : >call it a step forward in for games was price (with all three books, we're
> : >talking somewhere around $70+ dollars), far more than the startup cost for
> : >AD&D...
>
> : Excuse me? To properly play AD&D, you need a PHB, a DMG and a MM. That will
> : cost you $63, MSRP. How is there a difference in cost to get into the system?
> : (Mind you, $7 is splitting hairs, but if you compare what you're getting,
> : maybe *that's* where a qualifiable difference is...)

hey mon, like u forgot about the funny-shapped dice... it's still not a bad
price since u can get several years of fun out of that investement (slighly
more than what a computer or video game sells for)

or u could just get the D&D hardback for $20 (best value I've seen in a
while)

definitely a cheaper alternative than M:TG... (hehe 'gathering' $$$)

Steve
--
If it's messy, pick it up.
If it's dirty, clean it.
If it's hungry, feed it.
If it cries, comfort it.


Pardoz

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 9:50:59 AM3/16/95
to
In article <3k7ct9$3...@galaxy.ucr.edu>,

Michael J Conard <con...@watnxt01.ucr.edu> wrote:
> I find it difficult to believe what I am reading. I wonder if anyone
>one this list who is relentlessly beating on Gygax's works has actually played
>in any of the adventures he wrote, with at least a semi-functional GM.

I have.

>Temple
>of Elemental Evil, the Slaver series, and the Demon Queen series were the most
>exciting and among the most interesting adventures I have yet to play or run.

My condolences.

>I have been in this game more than ten years and I have NEVER seen a
>module/series better than Gary's.

How much have you looked? Off the top of my head I'll recommend
"Walker in the Wastes", "Lands of Mystery", and "The Yellow Clearance
Black Box Blues".


> Additionally, one individual labelled the Mythus system an "abyssmal"
>game.

That would have been me.

>I have to wonder if this individual has actually played or read or spent
>more than thirty seconds on the game.

Several days, both playing and reading the main volume and the
magic book. I wouldn't have wasted so much time on it except for the
fact that I'd been handed a copy for review and felt some moral
obligation to go over it in some detail. Mythus is quite possibly the
worst professionally published RPG it's ever been my misfortune to read.

Justin Mohareb

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 2:28:36 PM3/16/95
to
In a previous posting, James Calabro (a017...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us) writes:
> Chris (cgv...@access.digex.net) wrote:
> : (Mind you, $7 is splitting hairs, but if you compare what you're getting,
> : maybe *that's* where a qualifiable difference is...)
>
> : Best,
>
>
> --
> To start to play SRII or SRI you only need $25.

Actually, that's just for the basic book. It IS strongly suggested that
players get The Grimoire, and a few of the tech books (Shadowtech, SS
Catalogue, Virtual Realities, Shadowbeat). The Paranormal animals books
are generally considered vital, etc etc.

In fact, I've got a question for all: Has anyone ever run a well
supported game (ie, Champions & GURPS don't really count) for a decent
period (Oh, let's say six months to a year) with just a basic rule book
(Or books in the case of AD&D)?

Just curious,

JJ Mohareb
--
Justin Mohareb, bd...@freenet.carleton.ca: Ventrue Elder of OBN, Internet
Editor for the Algonquin Times, Media Liason for Can*Con (write for
info!). Short furry guy with an attitude, and too many titles. *:)

Jonathan Evans

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 4:13:01 PM3/16/95
to
In article <D5Jsr...@freenet.carleton.ca> bd...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Justin Mohareb) writes:
>
>Actually, that's just for the basic book. It IS strongly suggested that
>players get The Grimoire, and a few of the tech books (Shadowtech, SS
>Catalogue, Virtual Realities, Shadowbeat). The Paranormal animals books
>are generally considered vital, etc etc.

(blink)
(blink)

Er... let's just say that our definitions of "vital" and "strongly suggested"
vary a *lot*.

Some of us view sourcebooks as the last refuge of the incompetent.

>In fact, I've got a question for all: Has anyone ever run a well
>supported game (ie, Champions & GURPS don't really count) for a decent
>period (Oh, let's say six months to a year) with just a basic rule book
>(Or books in the case of AD&D)?

Yes, a number of times. (Shadowrun, AD&D, Amber...)

I don't even *bring* books to gaming sessions. My players have been known to,
but they have remarked on the pained look on my face when somebody actually
cracks them open.

>
>Just curious,
>
>JJ Mohareb

Jon

Andrew E. Harasty

unread,
Mar 16, 1995, 4:58:12 PM3/16/95