Earthdawn-I feel sorry for you developer guys
Turtle
had when you launched the game and when you thought about how the Eartdawn
universe would expand and unfold in the course of years,spawning a multitude
of sourcebooks and stories.But it happened different,somehow.
This is not intended as sarcasm or making fun of you,I really care.
I bought earthdawn the instant it was available in my rpg shoppe,and started
our group played it five days after.We really liked the game and the
swiftness of the combat system.
The first adventure "Mists of Betrayal" was the first letdown.Linear as
hell, emphasizing hack and slay over atmosphere and too hard for beginners.
The Earthdawn Companion had already the first signs of what would,in my
opinion, spoil the fun in Earthdawn:magic is much too mundane in the ED
universe,losing much of its mysterious flavor.I mean,when every peasant has
a self heating magical bowl,its simply laughable.Then the line of bad
adventures continued with "Terror in the Skies",another hack and slay and as
linear as its predecessor.
But there were very good releases for Eartdawn:among my favourites:Parlainth
Box,Monster Handbook,Horrors,Barsaive Box and some more.
But eventually I sold everything Eartdawn related,because Earthdawn misses a
special atmosphere,it simply cant decide if its childish and goofy high
fantasy (T`Skrang,Flying Ships,Windlings) or gritty and dark (Horrors
etc,the Scourge).There was no theme or coherent imagery associated with the
game,it looked like an assembly of different games and genres.
When I took a look at a recent Earthdawn book,I was rather shocked to what
Earthdawn had developed:
some four armed troll monstrosity with magical crystal armor stared at me
when I opened the book.they definitely had gone the wrong way when they made
the magic such an important part of the game.
Comments anyone?
--
_________________________________________________ ___ __ _
The Hidden World : http://members.xoom.com/hiddenworld
_____________________________________________ ___ __ _
Greg Mohler
Turtle <tku...@easynet.de> wrote:
>This must be a shitty feeling,looking in retrospect at the excitement you
>had when you launched the game and when you thought about how the Eartdawn
>universe would expand and unfold in the course of years,spawning a multitude
>of sourcebooks and stories.But it happened different,somehow.
I'd be surprised if the developers were more than simply disappointed.
Its the rare bird that succeeds well enough to be around and healthy
for several years. FASA was lucky enough to have lightning strike
twice already (with Shadowrun and Battletech). Neither of
those games are truly "fantasy genre", coincidentally enough.
I was about to say that FASA has a better track record than TSR,
cuz TSR's still trying to come up with a second successful
distinct system. Then I realized that TSR's "failures" may have
made more money than FASA's successes. Anyone know the details
there? Just curious...
>The first adventure "Mists of Betrayal" was the first letdown.Linear as
>hell, emphasizing hack and slay over atmosphere and too hard for beginners.
You've just described nearly every pre-packaged adventure FASA has
ever made (well, I dunno about the Star Trek line). It hasn't
hurt Shadowrun.
>The Earthdawn Companion had already the first signs of what would,in my
>opinion, spoil the fun in Earthdawn:magic is much too mundane in the ED
>universe,losing much of its mysterious flavor.I mean,when every peasant has
>a self heating magical bowl,its simply laughable.
Heh, sounds like they were trying to turn it into Glorantha (if Earthdawn
did last, maybe we'd see duck sky-raiders in a future supplement,
to tie this into another thread. If anything, they'd be more
appropriate here!). However, Glorantha has that pagany thing going
for it. The Barsaive civilizations seemed too "advanced" for that
to work. IMHO, of course.
>But eventually I sold everything Eartdawn related,because Earthdawn misses a
>special atmosphere,it simply cant decide if its childish and goofy high
>fantasy (T`Skrang,Flying Ships,Windlings) or gritty and dark (Horrors
>etc,the Scourge).There was no theme or coherent imagery associated with the
>game,it looked like an assembly of different games and genres.
That's the problem I had with Earthdawn when I first bought it. I
knew it'd be high fantasy, but it just seemed so cartoony. The
magical talents and such that all the character classes had never
really clicked for me. It almost felt like a Street-Fighter style
video game turned into an RPG (the warrior's airdance ability... errrg).
And then they include the Horrors. I know a good GM can do anything
with any background, but they way the Horrors are presented, I
couldn't help but think of the big bad guy you have to fight
at the end of those Street-Fighter style videogames.
Basically, Barsaive reminded me of a Fabrage egg. Really pretty,
lotsa baubles, looks like some thought went it to it, but completely
superficial.
>When I took a look at a recent Earthdawn book,I was rather shocked to what
>Earthdawn had developed:
>some four armed troll monstrosity with magical crystal armor stared at me
>when I opened the book.they definitely had gone the wrong way when they made
>the magic such an important part of the game.
FASA have a formula and they stick to it, by gum. I stopped buying
Battletech products in '90, and Shadowrun products in '94, because
of the way they handled power escalation in those games' timelines
(is there a game universe where technology is in *decline*, aside
from pre-Clan Battletech?). I wonder if this played a part in
ending the Earthdawn line; maybe fantasy genre gamers can't handle
power escalation in their campaigns. yeah, and maybe I'm the
Pope's uncle. Naw, FASA just tried to shove another FRPG into
the market's bloated gullet, and it was too weird in some
places (that wacky dice mechanic, FREX) and not weird enough
in others to survive.
For the thin-skinned ED fans, tag a giant IMHO at the end of every line
above.
Greg
--
Greg Mohler ~~~ Condensed Matter Theory Group (Superconductivity), OSU
Mechwarrior RPG info at: http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~greggo
"in the next world war/ in a jack-knifed juggernaut/ I am born again"
-Radiohead, "Airbag"
Anthony Ragan
Void:
>You've just described nearly every pre-packaged adventure FASA has
>ever made (well, I dunno about the Star Trek line). It hasn't
>hurt Shadowrun.
Actually, I thought the Shadowrun adventures written by Nigel Findley
were quite good -- not at all linear from my reading of them.
*****
--Anthony Ragan
Professional writing and rewriting
Iris...@mindspring.com (Primary) & Iris...@aol.com (Secondary)
"Make-a the ganglia twitch!" --Lord John Whorfin
Carl Perkins
}But eventually I sold everything Eartdawn related,because Earthdawn misses a
}special atmosphere,it simply cant decide if its childish and goofy high
}fantasy (T`Skrang,Flying Ships,Windlings) or gritty and dark (Horrors
}etc,the Scourge).There was no theme or coherent imagery associated with the
}game,it looked like an assembly of different games and genres.
I think you missed it. Try "gritty and dark high fantasy". It is designed
so that you can play it however you want. You want a high fantasy crossover
with high camp? It can do that. You want horror? it can do that too. The
setting is designed to be high in magic, but other than that there are a lot
of ways to go. You can play it as a struggle gainst the Horrors, which is
likely to be a horror style campaign with frequent bouts of hack and slash.
You can play it as a series of explorations of ancient ruins (and not so
ruins for the inhabited places) where you never once run into a horror.
You can fight dragons. You can work for dragons. You can do both without
even knowing it. You can fight the Therans in a highly political game.
And it *is* an assembly of different genres - particualry "high magic
fantasy" and "horror". The real world is also an assembly of different genres:
some days are drama, some are tragedy, some are comedy, and I've had a few
that were musicals.
I fail to see how the lack of a one dimensional background is a flaw.
--- Carl
Turtle
because I dont like the thing about "you can play the game as that or as
that",I dont care about what style you CAN play,but about how the game
universe is presented and if it is coherent in itself.When you start what
you CAN do with a roleplaying game,I must reply that you can do ANYTHING
with ANY roleplayin game.You can play a gritty and dark TOONS game if you
want to,this is only limited by your imagination.But when I evaluate a RPG,I
want a unifying atmosphere,so when I tell someone the name of the game,he
instantly says:"Well thats the game with this and that,isnt it?"
Look at some of the most successful and longestliving roleplaying games like
CTHULHU or (a bit younger) VAMPIRE.You tell someone those titles (someone
who knows about rpgs,better is)and he will have an idea of the overall
atmosphere.Mind you,you can twist and turn the game upside down,there is a
certain idea of how the game universe works,a unifiying atmosphere.There is
not that atmospheric gap in the game universe.There are many different
supplements who take said CTHULHU in a different direction,like BLOOD
BROTHERS or DELTA GREEN,but at the core there is still that Lovecraftian
horror that defines the game most.Eartdawn is harder to define,not
necessesarily because its that high brow,but because it has not that
atmospheric "trademark".So you can say that Im limiting myself when I want a
single style of play emphasized in the rulebook,but I reply that I dont need
any different directions that are supported in the game,I can easily use the
atmosphere emphasized in the rulebook as a starting point for spin offs that
take the game in a different direction.
Carl Perkins wrote in message <10JUL199...@gerg.tamu.edu>...
David R. Henry
>First,I only wrote why > I < dont like Eartdawn anymore,that probably is
>because I dont like the thing about "you can play the game as that or as
>that",I dont care about what style you CAN play,but about how the game
>universe is presented and if it is coherent in itself.
The Earthdawn universe was quite consistant to itself. It was a mixture
of high fantasy with cosmic horror from day one, and remained that way
pretty much throughout its run.
>want to,this is only limited by your imagination.But when I evaluate a RPG,I
>want a unifying atmosphere,so when I tell someone the name of the game,he
>instantly says:"Well thats the game with this and that,isnt it?"
Earthdawn: The game of high magic and high horror. Simple enough, eh?
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Lion Clan Nezumi * Rogue Fan Club * Fallen Writer
Just Five Words for Jerry Bruckheimer: Why machineguns on NASA spacecraft?
What was the question? --Kate Bush /// All you of Earth are IDIOTS! --P9fOS
John Fiala
*is* an assembly of different genres - particualry "high magic
>fantasy" and "horror". The real world is also an assembly of different
genres:
>some days are drama, some are tragedy, some are comedy, and I've had a few
>that were musicals.
Hmm... "EarthDawn: The Musical". I'll have to run that at a con
sometime.
--
-john (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/5665/)
Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled through
snow
jcf...@cssltd.com -Jeff Valdez
Triad3204
writes:
>First,I only wrote why > I < dont like Eartdawn anymore,that probably is
>because I dont like the thing about "you can play the game as that or as
>that",
1. And someone dared to express a differing POV? Horrors.
2. The point was (and is) that Earthdawn isn't a "take your pick", it's a "take
'em both or leave 'em both". Babylon 5 is an intrigue and science fiction
universe -- you don't choose to have intrigue OR science fiction ... you have
both. EarthDawn is high fantasy and cosmic horror -- you don't choose to have
one or the other, the world is *both*.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
Triad3204
gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Greg Mohler) writes:
>Then I realized that TSR's "failures" may have
>made more money than FASA's successes. Anyone know the details
>there? Just curious...
Without hard data (and nobody has it because TSR never released it) I would say
this would be incorrect. BattleTech, in particular, is an extremely valuable
property.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
Triad3204
gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Greg Mohler) writes:
>Naw, FASA just tried to shove another FRPG into
>the market's bloated gullet, and it was too weird in some
>places (that wacky dice mechanic, FREX) and not weird enough
>in others to survive.
I am continually curious about the oft-repeated "bloated FRPG market".
Admittedly, it's difficult to compete with AD&D -- but surely there are enough
people who don't like AD&D and who have moved on who would still be interested
in a good fantasy game?
But, at the moment, what other fantasy games are there? AD&D, Ars Magica,
and....? Recently WoD has released Mage: Sorceror's Crusade and Vampire: The
Dark Ages -- I, personally, haven't looked at them yet, but they might loosely
qualify. RuneQuest has been dead for several years, and RQ:Slayers and
Glorantha won't be out until next year.
There are several smaller lines (Tunnels and Trolls is still kicking around
isn't it? -- and there's always Gardasiyal for Tekumel gaming), but nothing
that really seems to be "bloating" the marketplace. (Although these next couple
years look like they're going to be extremely active for the genre.)
Justin Bacon
tr...@priarie.lakes.com
Greg Mohler
Triad3204 <tria...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I am continually curious about the oft-repeated "bloated FRPG market".
>Admittedly, it's difficult to compete with AD&D -- but surely there are enough
>people who don't like AD&D and who have moved on who would still be interested
>in a good fantasy game?
>
Well, my hastily-spoken words inspired this question, so let me try and
explain my POV:
Is the marketplace bloated with FRPGs?
First, let's look at AD&D. I think we can all agree that it
pretty much dominates the entire hobby, let alone fantasy genre
games. Just anecdotally, I know many people who have played AD&D
for years or decades, and have never thought about trying any
other systems- anything not D&D is "weird". I would not be surprised
if this was common, tho given the cosmopolitan nature of
rec.games.frp.misc, I doubt there are many of those types here. How
could any game really compete against that?
(As a tangent, I'm sure the advent of White Wolf has changed this
equation somewhat, but I've no idea how much, or if it helps
fantasy-genre games compete against AD&D.)
So you have a handful of adventurous souls who want to break
out of AD&D, and they would rather try a whole new game system
rather than stick with the familiar and try and fix AD&D with homebrews.
What's there for them?
Well, you have MERP and Rolemaster, both of whom have been around for
awhile. You have GURPS Fantasy; I've observed that many gamers
try GURPS after tiring of AD&D, possibly because of superficial
similarities. You have Fantasy Hero; I had always thought it
was Champions' ugly stepchild, but I continually run into people
for whom its their main FRPG. You have Palladium FRP. Erm, well,
Palladium has its own thing going. Chivalry and Sorcery has returned.
Getting a bit more obscure, there's Harn. I don't want to make this
ugly, but I've seen ads for Senzar in gaming mags, so it should be
counted as a competitor as well (at least in terms of exposure).
As you note, there's Ars Magica, and possibly some of the WW lines
(is Changeling an FRPG?). As for Runequest, again I must rely on
personal observation: every game store I've walked into has had
a sizable collection of RQ stuff- boxed sets, adventures, sourcebooks,
etc. I know its currently dead, but there must still be a lot
of RQ product out there sitting on shelves, unless my experiences
are completely unusual. What else... well, there's Chaosium's
Pendragon. Stretching things a little, there's Castle Falkenstein.
I'm willing to bet there's some obvious ones I'm completely leaving out.
All of these games have distinctive flavors, fairly solid mechanics,
and some amount of market presence, with AD&D being ubiquitous,
and GURPS, Rolemaster/MERP, and Palladium FRPG being, er, semi-ubiquitous.
Then you have all the low profile games that sit in the "oddball"
corner of most game shops: T&T, Tekumel, Pelicar, Inferno, Sun and Storm,
etc. I doubt ED was truly competing against these, but they're out there,
taking up space.
Here's a question that's been bugging me:
Where would Darkurthe Legends (or whatever Mr. Nalle's game is called)
fit into this? I've never seen it in any stores, nor have I personally
known anyone who's played it. Is the midwest a DL-free zone?
Anyhoo, that's my take on the FRPG market. My gut instinct
is that there are already too many "secondary tier" FRPGs with
their own adherents for ED to get enough of a slice to
suit FASA. Of course, I would cheerfully recant (smilingly! laughingly!)
if the actual market numbers contradict me. I'm just going from
what I see when I go into game stores or leaf through mail order
catalogs, and from what I hear from other RPGer's when/if they
grow weary from AD&D.
If the market isn't bloated, which I would take to mean that there *is*
room for another second-tier RPG, that still leaves open
the question as to why Earthdawn failed. While I noted my
own complaints with it, I don't think the game was severly flawed
enough to fail in a less crowded market. How 'bout you?
Allister Huggins
> In article <6o3mf4$855$1...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
> gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Greg Mohler) writes:
>
> >Naw, FASA just tried to shove another FRPG into
> >the market's bloated gullet, and it was too weird in some
> >places (that wacky dice mechanic, FREX) and not weird enough
> >in others to survive.
>
> I am continually curious about the oft-repeated "bloated FRPG market".
> Admittedly, it's difficult to compete with AD&D -- but surely there are enough
> people who don't like AD&D and who have moved on who would still be interested
> in a good fantasy game?
>
Er..not playing AD&D does not mean your not playing a TSR setting.
I know of several people that simply use the settings from TSR and use
their own system. GURPS being the favorite one of choice. To put it
mildly, just how different does one fantasy setting different from the
next?
> But, at the moment, what other fantasy games are there? AD&D, Ars Magica,
> and....? Recently WoD has released Mage: Sorceror's Crusade and Vampire: The
> Dark Ages -- I, personally, haven't looked at them yet, but they might loosely
Well, I know some may disagree, but I generally consider Ars
Magica and Mage: Soceror's Crusade having the same "feel".
> qualify. RuneQuest has been dead for several years, and RQ:Slayers and
> Glorantha won't be out until next year.
Yes, but what is going to convince you to pick up Glorantha if you
are a new player? What "hook" is there?
>
> There are several smaller lines (Tunnels and Trolls is still kicking around
> isn't it? -- and there's always Gardasiyal for Tekumel gaming), but nothing
> that really seems to be "bloating" the marketplace. (Although these next couple
> years look like they're going to be extremely active for the genre.)
>
Remember though, AD&D is just the system. TSR has put out FR,
Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, GreyHawk, SpellJammer, Darksun, Birthright,
Planescape, Ravenloft and Planescape. I personally haven't touched a
"standard" TSR fantasy world in a few years but I still buy TSR products
regularly for Planescape and Ravenloft.
Allister H.
Bruce Baugh
> Well, I know some may disagree, but I generally consider Ars
>Magica and Mage: Soceror's Crusade having the same "feel".
On the one hand, cloistered mages working within a fixed universe in a
medieval environment. On the other hand, mages who mingle among
Renaissance communities in a universe open to revision. Juuust a bit
different, to me.
--
http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/
Rolegaming, writing tools, miscellany
The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and
high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on
the contrary, it increases the desire to walk. -- Massimo d'Azeglio
Darwin
> But, at the moment, what other fantasy games are there? AD&D, Ars Magica,
> and....? Recently WoD has released Mage: Sorceror's Crusade and Vampire: The
> Dark Ages -- I, personally, haven't looked at them yet, but they might loosely
> qualify. RuneQuest has been dead for several years, and RQ:Slayers and
> Glorantha won't be out until next year.
Well, the Pod just put out Tribe-8.. got it in my hands right now..
looks pretty good. and definitely a different 'flavor' than most FRPs
out there..
Darwin
Deirdre M. Brooks
>Actually, I thought the Shadowrun adventures written by Nigel Findley
>were quite good -- not at all linear from my reading of them.
Maybe we've played different Nigel Findley adventures - no disrespect
intended, 'cause I really enjoy his background material, but running his
adventures gave me headaches. Playing in them gave me headaches. The three
which immediately come to mind are the NAN adventures and the Vampire
story, "Awakening: Diablerie Mexico."
When you can look at a story and identify the author because the damned
thing is *too* linear (without reading the credits), it's pretty bad.
Triad3204
>Well, the Pod just put out Tribe-8.. got it in my hands right now..
>looks pretty good. and definitely a different 'flavor' than most FRPs
>out there..
Shame on me for forgetting Tribe 8. Everyone should buy a copy. Now.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
[ GO! ]
Triad3204
Allister Huggins <hug...@idirect.com> writes:
> Remember though, AD&D is just the system. TSR has put out FR,
>Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, GreyHawk, SpellJammer, Darksun, Birthright,
>Planescape, Ravenloft and Planescape. I personally haven't touched a
>"standard" TSR fantasy world in a few years but I still buy TSR products
>regularly for Planescape and Ravenloft.
Right, yes, but you're completely missing the point: WHAT BLOATED FRPG MARKET?
Comparing the current FRPG market to the current science fiction market you see
quite clearly that the pickings are sparse for FRPGs -- and many of those
pickings are tied very tightly to their source material or have a limited
number of play options (Mage: Sorceror's Crusade, for example, requires you to
play mages unless I am mistaken).
So I really don't see that FASA's attempt to publish EarthDawn was any more
unrealistic than their decision to publish BATTLETECH or SHADOWRUN.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
Robert Barrett
: Comparing the current FRPG market to the current science fiction market
: you see quite clearly that the pickings are sparse for FRPGs -- and many
: of those pickings are tied very tightly to their source material or have
: a limited number of play options (Mage: Sorceror's Crusade, for example,
: requires you to play mages unless I am mistaken).
You're mistaken. P. 74 of Sorcerors Crusade (officially there's no
apostrophe--what's up with that? :) contains a sidebar listing suggested
rules for playing non-magus characters: un-Awakened companions, magical
beasts, and humans with mystical talents (like Sir Gawain's strength
increase).
White Wolf started this trend in Trinity, and hopefully we'll see more of
it in the remaining historical games.
Best,
Rob
--
Robert W. Barrett, Jr. * E-mail: rbar...@dept.english.upenn.edu * World
Wide Web: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~rbarrett/index.html * Garden
shrugged. "I see no reason to give the Heroes priority. The world is a
One Twist Ring: we affect the Mist, the Mist affects the real world.
Stories from one get told in the other." - Sean Stewart, _Clouds End_
woodelf
gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Greg Mohler) wrote:
> Here's a question that's been bugging me:
> Where would Darkurthe Legends (or whatever Mr. Nalle's game is called)
> fit into this? I've never seen it in any stores, nor have I personally
> known anyone who's played it. Is the midwest a DL-free zone?
well, *Ohio* may be a DL-free zone, but the *Midwest* doesn't seem to have
any such limitation. ;-) i've seen copies (though rarely). Nalle's
game is Ysgarth, and that i've never seen, even when pawing through the
obscure section of used dealers at GenCon. perhaps nobody parts with
Ysgarth once they get it? after all, i've never seen Pendragon or Ars
Magica in a used store, either, and i know those are widely available new.
> Anyhoo, that's my take on the FRPG market. My gut instinct
> is that there are already too many "secondary tier" FRPGs with
> their own adherents for ED to get enough of a slice to
> suit FASA. Of course, I would cheerfully recant (smilingly! laughingly!)
> if the actual market numbers contradict me. I'm just going from
> what I see when I go into game stores or leaf through mail order
> catalogs, and from what I hear from other RPGer's when/if they
> grow weary from AD&D.
well, if Earthdawn was competing with the swordsnsorcery-style FRPG
market, it was due to poor marketing. while i don't care for it much
(mostly for mechanical reasons), i wouldn't mistake it as being in teh
same genre as Palladium Fantasy, AD&D, or MERP/Rolemaster. just as i
wouldn't consider ShadowRun and Cyperpunk 2020 to be competitors. [when i
was looking for a "cyberpunk" game, i didn't even look at SR; but if i'd
been looking for a near-future modern fantasy game it would be near the
top of the list. actually, probably would *be* the list, at least until a
couple of years ago.] oh, and you forgot WFRP (among the "big names") and
Legends of Yore, Of Gods and Men, Everway, and at least a couple other
small-press fantasy games. and i'll just assume that your choice to only
consider "traditional fantasy" was a reasonable one, from a market
standpoint. but there's still things like Empire of the Petal Throne,
SkyRealms of Jorune, Bunnies & Burrows, and Maelstrom Storytelling--you
know, the "weird ones"--which are certainly fantasy. (and available,
except for B&B--i was just trying to think of a good example.)
> If the market isn't bloated, which I would take to mean that there *is*
> room for another second-tier RPG, that still leaves open
> the question as to why Earthdawn failed. While I noted my
> own complaints with it, I don't think the game was severly flawed
> enough to fail in a less crowded market. How 'bout you?
Earthdawn is a genre-mixer. IME, those either fly or crash; nothing in
between. when you take a couple of genres and mix them up, people don't
have the convenient anchor point of a familiar genre, so they are a little
bit reluctant to jump in. and once they do, they may or may not like the
particular mix. so, Space: 1889 flops, while Castle Falkenstein does
quite well. ShadowRun and Deadlands obviously both picked the right mix.
so perhaps did Trinity. i think Providence works too, but time will tell
on these last two. perhaps Earthdawn just wasn't the right mix?
woodelf <*>
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers.
We study the mysteries of laser and circuit,
Crystal and scanner, holographic demons,
And invocations of equations.
These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. --Elric
woodelf
Allister Huggins <hug...@idirect.com> wrote:
> Er..not playing AD&D does not mean your not playing a TSR setting.
> I know of several people that simply use the settings from TSR and use
> their own system. GURPS being the favorite one of choice. To put it
> mildly, just how different does one fantasy setting different from the
> next?
um, that last sentence seems to have gotten munged. should it have been
something like "just how different does a fantasy setting have to be to be
'different'?" Tekumel, Jorune, Glorantha, Providence, Spelljammer, Castle
Falkenstein, are "different." Earthdawn, Of Gods and Men, and Mage:
Sorceror's Crusade are in the grey area, not quite "different" but not
really "the same old same old", either.
> Well, I know some may disagree, but I generally consider Ars
> Magica and Mage: Soceror's Crusade having the same "feel".
log me on the "disagree" list. without the emphasis on Covenant as
central character, and on long-term play scales, it just wouldn't be Ars
Magica to me. ['course, the system from Ars Magica is still wonderful
without those, so i've certainly played without them.]
Green must fight Purple. Purple must fight Green. Is only way.
--Green Drazi
Just my luck, I get stuck with a race that only speaks in macros.
--Ivanova
woodelf
tria...@aol.com (Triad3204) wrote:
> Right, yes, but you're completely missing the point: WHAT BLOATED FRPG MARKET?
>
> Comparing the current FRPG market to the current science fiction market
you see
> quite clearly that the pickings are sparse for FRPGs -- and many of those
> pickings are tied very tightly to their source material or have a limited
> number of play options (Mage: Sorceror's Crusade, for example, requires you to
> play mages unless I am mistaken).
>
> So I really don't see that FASA's attempt to publish EarthDawn was any more
> unrealistic than their decision to publish BATTLETECH or SHADOWRUN.
i think we're either looking at different games, or different genres.
sticking just to more-or-less swordsnsorcery and/or high fantasy (i.e.,
not things like Bunnies & Burrows or SkyRealms of Jorune), i come up with
the following "traditional fantasy" RPGs: D&D, AD&D, Earthdawn,
RuneQuest, ARs Magica, HarnMaster, Chivalry & Sorcery, Pendragon, Of Gods
and Men, Legends of Yore, Warhammer FRP, MERP, RoleMaster, Palladium
Fantasy, Everway, HERO (Fantasy HERO), GURPS (GURPS Fantasy), Providence
(sorta), just off the top of my head. that doesn't include 3 new ones i
saw at GenCon last year (but whose names i forget). (nor does it
include any others i've forgotten, or course.) now, Mecha RPGs:
MechWarrior, Heavy Gear, Armored Trooper Votoms, perhaps Bubblegum Crisis
and Jovian Chronicles. are their any others (Robotech, Mekton) in print?
Space opera RPGs: The Babylon Project, Star Wars, Fading Suns, Alternity,
Trinity, Jovian Chronicles. horror: Kult, Lost Souls, Call of Cthulhu,
Asylum, Deadlands (sorta), Earthdawn (sorta). modern fantasy: Changeling,
Werewolf, Wraith, Vampire, Mage, Immortal, The Everlasting, The Power, The
23rd Letter, Legacy, Witchcraft, Nephilim, Whispering Vault, Over the
Edge, Armageddon (sorta), perhaps Feng Shui. supers: Champions, GURPS
(GURPS Supers), Providence. Cyberpunk: Cyperpunk 2020, ShadowRun
(sorta). so, off the top of my head, the only genre i can think of that
is *more* bloated than traditional fantasy is perhaps modern fantasy.
now, i agree that most of those games aren't interchangeable, due to
setting details. but neither are most of the games in the other genres.
but, if sheer number of pseudo-competitors really is the measure of
bloatedness, then the FRPG market is. personally, i think that consumers
are smarter than that, and while they might consider, say, HarnMaster and
C&S vaguely interchangeable, they won't consider, say, Pendragon and
RoleMaster interchangeable, and thus they aren't competitive. but if i'm
right, than Earthdawn is in a genre of 1: high fantasy-horror hybrid, and
it didn't have *any* competitors. i know that when i heard about it, i
rejected it not because i already had a game for that, but because it
didn't interst me (while i've rejected 2/3rds of the traditional fantasy
list above because i already had a game that i thought was close enough in
flavor to do the trick).
I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
Technomages here. --Vir Koto
Disturbance
Mohler) wrote:
>If the market isn't bloated, which I would take to mean that there *is*
>room for another second-tier RPG, that still leaves open
>the question as to why Earthdawn failed. While I noted my
>own complaints with it, I don't think the game was severly flawed
>enough to fail in a less crowded market. How 'bout you?
It's my belief that Earthdawn failed because of insufficient
marketing. FASA did not have the budget to support the kind of
marketing required for a game like Earthdawn, devoting most of its
assets (understandably so) to its primary cash cow, Battletech, then
to Shadowrun, and leaving scraps for Earthdawn. With a campaign that
stressed marketing to the non-gamer population (ads in Realms of
Fantasy, for example), Earthdawn could have done quite well.
YMMV.
Andrew
Bill McHale
: In article <199807121707...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: tria...@aol.com (Triad3204) wrote:
: i think we're either looking at different games, or different genres.
Just a couple of points.
I am not entirely sure I would consider Pendragon and Ars Magica to be
traditional fantasy games. While both certainly have elements of such,
each tends to be built around what in another game would be considered a
character class. Thus while it is possible to take other sorts of
characters in these games, it should always be understood that these
characters are secondary.
I would say that there is little doubt that Jovian Chronicles is a Mecha
Game. Indeed it is probably the most classic Mecha game outhtere, since
in many respects its just Mobile Suit Gundam with the serial numbers filed
off... And I thank DP9 immensly for it. It should also be noted that in
the Mecha Genre, several of the games (Votoms and Bubblegum Crisis in
particular) are only getting limited support. In reality Battletech still
very much defines and dominates the genre, though Dp9 seems to be
competing, with HG and JC being excellent products and HC having tons of
material available.
--
Bill
***************************************************************************
The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
***************************************************************************
Brett Slocum
AD&D
Palladium FRP
GURPS Fantasy
MERP
Rolemaster
Ars Magica
Fantasy Hero
Chivalry and Sorcery
Pendragon
Harn
Two mentioned, but that I'm removing from the list:
Runequest (no new products, probably doesn't count)
Castle Falkenstein (not in-genre, this is Victorian Fantasy)
I'd add:
Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
Talislanta
---
Brett Slocum -- slo...@io.com -- ICQ #13032903
* New Illuminated Sitekeeper for Steve Jackson Games - send neat sites
* GURPS site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/gurps.html
* Tekumel site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/tekumel.html
"Ah'm yer pa, Luke." -- if James Earl Ray was the voice of Darth Vader
Sidhain
>
>I would say that there is little doubt that Jovian Chronicles is a Mecha
>Game. Indeed it is probably the most classic Mecha game outhtere, since
>in many respects its just Mobile Suit Gundam with the serial numbers filed
>off... And I thank DP9 immensly for it. It should also be noted that in
>the Mecha Genre, several of the games (Votoms and Bubblegum Crisis in
>particular) are only getting limited support. In reality Battletech still
>very much defines and dominates the genre, though Dp9 seems to be
>competing, with HG and JC being excellent products and HC having tons of
>material available.
>
>--
>Bill
>
>***************************************************************************
>The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
I really hate that Battletech is NOT MECHA not in the Japanese sense, they
are slow lumbering anrthopomorhised (and now since they cannot copy
Robotechs art they are far less humanlike.) tanks.
Mecha are not tanks they wouldn't work like tanks, and they shouldn't be
written up in a game as tanks, a Mecha that can dodge or move quickly enough
to avoid missle fire is oen thing but one which slowly lumbers across the
countryside waiting to get hit with a heat seaking missle?
Battletech is not even a well designed game, Heavy Gear's tactical system is
infinitely better and I don't reallly like Heavy Gear.
Just my opinion
I like real Mecha, akin to Robotech, or any decent Anime series...(Patlabor,
Gundam etc)
James Wallis
wrote:
>Here's a list from the previous poster:
>AD&D
>Palladium FRP
>GURPS Fantasy
>MERP
>Rolemaster
>Ars Magica
>Fantasy Hero
>Chivalry and Sorcery
>Pendragon
>Harn
>
>Two mentioned, but that I'm removing from the list:
>Runequest (no new products, probably doesn't count)
>Castle Falkenstein (not in-genre, this is Victorian Fantasy)
>
>
>I'd add:
>Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
>Talislanta
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Aria
Vampire: the Dark Ages
Mage: the Sorcerers Crusade
Legend of the Five Rings (Eastern fantasy, perhaps, but still fantasy)
Hercules/Xena
and Earthdawn, which is still on the shelves and in the warehouses,
regardless of the fact that FASA's dropped it.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Warhammer is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, used with permission
Company motto: "Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo"
Allister Huggins
> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
> wrote:
> >Here's a list from the previous poster:
> >AD&D
With about three-four different flavours.
> >Palladium FRP
Huh? You know, Until this thread, I didn't realize that Palladium
HAD a FRP game. I assume it uses the RIFTS mechanics.
> >GURPS Fantasy
Isn't this out of print? But I must admit, I stil see this product
on the shelves.
> >MERP
Don't really like the mechanics but the actual support material,
wow, these guys know their Tolkein.
> >Rolemaster
Tables!!! and more tables.
> >Ars Magica
The up and comer.
> >Fantasy Hero
> >Chivalry and Sorcery
> >Pendragon
> >Harn
> >
<snip>
> >I'd add:
> >Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
> >Talislanta
>
> Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
> Aria
> Vampire: the Dark Ages
> Mage: the Sorcerers Crusade
> Legend of the Five Rings (Eastern fantasy, perhaps, but still fantasy)
> Hercules/Xena
> and Earthdawn, which is still on the shelves and in the warehouses,
> regardless of the fact that FASA's dropped it.
Hmm..so by my count we have 18 FRPGs with two more waiting in the
wings (Glorantha and Runequest.) . I would consider this kind of bloated.
Now here's my question, exactly how many of the above offer different
flavours of fantasy.
Allister H.
Dan Bongard
: gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Greg Mohler) screamed into the
: Void:
:> You've just described nearly every pre-packaged adventure FASA has
:> ever made (well, I dunno about the Star Trek line). It hasn't
:> hurt Shadowrun.
: Actually, I thought the Shadowrun adventures written by Nigel Findley
: were quite good -- not at all linear from my reading of them.
Hm? The sign of a linear module is one which falls apart if the
PCs don't stick to the script. All of Findley's modules have this
problem.
In fact, I'm at a loss to think of a single decent product Findley
ever produced. I once went through my Shadowrun supplements with a
friend and we appraised which ones were good and which were bad --
in an eerie coincidence, all but one (Shadowbeat) of the "bad"
supplements had a Findley by-line; none of the good ones did.
-- Dan
Dan Bongard
: Earthdawn: The game of high magic and high horror. Simple enough, eh?
How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
room for 'horror' in there. One of the major aspects of the horror
genre is "the unknown"; the other is isolation. The PCs in Earthdawn
are residents in a world where the threats are fairly well-known and
pretty much _everybody_ is there to help you fight them.
-- Dan
bdy...@network.boxmail.com
>Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
Can anyone offer opinions on this? I like the idea on just that reading,
but I'd like to know how the setting is handled (superhero equivalents in
a medievalish fantasy setting would affect war, construction, research,
transportation, defense against Big Nasty Things, government, etc.) Does
XID Creations have a web page or other net presence?
--
Brian Dysart | Ours is not to reason why...
bdy...@rahul.net | "...and eight for the fruit bat."
Michael T. Richter
<6oet6n$ohb$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
>>Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
>Can anyone offer opinions on this? I like the idea on just that reading,
>but I'd like to know how the setting is handled (superhero equivalents in
>a medievalish fantasy setting would affect war, construction, research,
>transportation, defense against Big Nasty Things, government, etc.) Does
>XID Creations have a web page or other net presence?
First, try this: http://www.idcreative.com.
Second, the setting isn't even remotely medievalish really. I'm not sure
what you'd call it, but it isn't medievalish. Maybe I'll just call it odd.
Providence won't suit everybody's fancy by a long shot. I like it. Many
will agree with me. Many others will disagree.
--
Michael T. Richter
m...@ottawa.com
http://www.igs.net/~mtr
Bill McHale
: I really hate that Battletech is NOT MECHA not in the Japanese sense, they
: are slow lumbering anrthopomorhised (and now since they cannot copy
: Robotechs art they are far less humanlike.) tanks.
: Mecha are not tanks they wouldn't work like tanks, and they shouldn't be
: written up in a game as tanks, a Mecha that can dodge or move quickly enough
: to avoid missle fire is oen thing but one which slowly lumbers across the
: countryside waiting to get hit with a heat seaking missle?
: Battletech is not even a well designed game, Heavy Gear's tactical system is
: infinitely better and I don't reallly like Heavy Gear.
Just a question, what in particular do you dislike about Heavy Gear... If
it is the desisn philosophy of the mechs in that game, then you should
check out Jovian Chronicles, same basic game engine, but Gundam Style
mecha.
: Just my opinion
: I like real Mecha, akin to Robotech, or any decent Anime series...(Patlabor,
: Gundam etc)
Personal opinion, by DP9's Silhouette System probably allows a better
simulation of classic Anime mecha than Mekton, and certainly better than
BT. And it is also extremely flexible.
--
Bill
***************************************************************************
The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
***************************************************************************
Bryant Durrell
Ducks, ravens, bats -- it's all the same thing in the end...
--
Bryant Durrell [] dur...@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
"Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments
when he was merely stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
David R. Henry
>David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) wrote:
>
>: Earthdawn: The game of high magic and high horror. Simple enough, eh?
>
>How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
>it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
>room for 'horror' in there.
Have you seen any horror films in the past ten years? Aliens is a nice
comparison. The Changeling could be run in Earthdawn. Carnival of
Souls, as well. Looking towards classic horror fiction, things from
The Keep to The Shining to House on the Borderlands to even The King
in Yellow are all aspects of horror that Earthdawn could easily use.
You have a "race" of vastly powerful, immaterial beings who delight
in playing very nasty, brutal, lethal tricks on humans. I can't imagine
any GM NOT being able to think up a horror-based scenario given such
an enterouge of rogues.
>genre is "the unknown"; the other is isolation. The PCs in Earthdawn
>are residents in a world where the threats are fairly well-known and
>pretty much _everybody_ is there to help you fight them.
Everybody? The Hand of Corruption ain't. The Questors of Raggok aren't.
The Questors of Vestrial could care less either way. The ork scorchers
who are rampaging down to the south are more concerned with slave
trading than the "obvious" threat of the haunted kaer to their north.
The wandering elementalist in the area is in denial from the Scourge,
and is still living in a neurotic fantasy world in which the elements
are still in tune and the Badlands are a lush, untainted paradise. And
so on.
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Lion Clan Nezumi * Rogue Fan Club * Fallen Writer
Just Five Words for Jerry Bruckheimer: Why machineguns on NASA spacecraft?
What was the question? --Kate Bush /// All you of Earth are IDIOTS! --P9fOS
Sidhain
>Personal opinion, by DP9's Silhouette System probably allows a better
>simulation of classic Anime mecha than Mekton, and certainly better than
>BT. And it is also extremely flexible.
>
>
>
>--
>Bill
>
>***************************************************************************
>The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
>*******************************************************************
Actually it doens't I dislike the system somewhat the Silhouette system
isn't bad, just not dynamic and detailed (its dynamic I'll admit but kind of
un syngeristic- I mean the success fail rate is pretty narrow really no
degrees of success) That an I don't like the HG setting, nor do I really
like Mekton Zeta's setting, but its designed to easily do whatever i like
and HG cannot do things like stupid mech tricks allowing one to create
Transformers, or it cannot do Evangelions' eva's nor Guyver (yes MZ+ can do
it)
I ahve not seen JC very closely I liked it for Mekton where it was first
published, but I like the practiacal worldless nature of MZ, cause I ahve
several worlds all my own for it, now I could adapt HG, but its easier with
MZ. (Not I don't dislike the System in a different setting or don't think I
will I like the idea of Tribe 8)
Sidhain
Bryant Durrell wrote in message <6ofqve$9rb$1...@toybox.flick.com>...
>In article <8sIq1.1823$JS1.3...@198.235.216.79>,
>Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>>bdy...@network.boxmail.com wrote in message
>><6oet6n$ohb$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
>>>>Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
>>
>>>Can anyone offer opinions on this? I like the idea on just that reading,
>>>but I'd like to know how the setting is handled (superhero equivalents in
>>>a medievalish fantasy setting would affect war, construction, research,
>>>transportation, defense against Big Nasty Things, government, etc.) Does
>>>XID Creations have a web page or other net presence?
>>
>>First, try this: http://www.idcreative.com.
>>
>>Second, the setting isn't even remotely medievalish really. I'm not sure
>>what you'd call it, but it isn't medievalish. Maybe I'll just call it
odd.
>>
>>Providence won't suit everybody's fancy by a long shot. I like it. Many
>>will agree with me. Many others will disagree.
>
>Ducks, ravens,
and the Races (Troupials) are akin to the Clans, Tribes, garbage of white
wolf but better done....far better done.
Socerers can wield wyrd and a few can have inante wyr based powers
Disturbance
wrote:
>How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
>it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
Actually, they're not. While there are indeed stats for many of the
Great Horrors, there's a lot of writings about Horrors that are not
well-defined, and GMs are encouraged to modify the stats for all
Horrors before using them in-game. No two Wormskulls should ever be
alike. Kind of like CoC; we know what Cthulhu looks like, we know
about the Great Race and the Mi-Go and the shoggoths, but do you
really want to screw with them? Even the most hardened investigator,
with enough magical knowledge that is SAN is teetering on the brink of
lockdown, is going to hesitate to go up against something
well-documented, and possibly will run screaming from something he
hasn't seen (or read about) before.
Also, the Horrors book only details a few of the nasty things. It's
been made very clear in the documentation that there are lots of them
out there that we know nothing about, and that may pop up unexpectedly
and try to eat your head.
Andrew
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Sidhain <sid...@earthlink.net> spake:
>Battletech is not even a well designed game, Heavy Gear's tactical system is
>infinitely better and I don't reallly like Heavy Gear.
Actually, it's quite a good game if you dump the Battlemechs and play it
with just tanks (after dumping the stupid restrictions they pasted in to keep
tanks from realistically slaughtering Mechs), other conventional vehicles,
infantry, and aerospace. The planetary weapon ranges are incredibly short,
but that's a necessary kluge to keep it all on a table-sized map.
It also has a really great background - the 3025-era House books are one of
the best settings for an SF RPG ever made (I've run it a few times under Space
Master, since the Mechwarrior RPGs suck on toast).
Heavy Gear's a nice little system, but IMO BT is a more playable and
entertaining game - it flows better than almost any game I've ever seen.
>I like real Mecha, akin to Robotech, or any decent Anime series...(Patlabor,
>Gundam etc)
I strongly dislike mecha. They're infantile power-fantasy (really huge
powerful bodies that can smash puny humans under foot - could you get more
blatantly 2-year-old-view-of-adults-ish?), and are totally implausible
scientifically. Small power armor is plausible. Tanks are plausible (and
tanks, unlike mecha, do not fall down). Mecha just break my SOD instantly
and make me want to whap the designer upside the head a with a physics book
few dozen times.
Naturally, your mileage may vary (especially since mecha couldn't take a
single step without plunging into the ground and smashing their legs).
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Allister Huggins <hug...@ugsparc0.eecg.toronto.edu> spake:
> Huh? You know, Until this thread, I didn't realize that Palladium
>HAD a FRP game. I assume it uses the RIFTS mechanics.
Nope, Rifts uses a bastardized version of PF mechanics (the system doesn't
scale up well to Rifts, but the original 1st Ed game was great; 2nd Ed is okay
but not as good as the original). PF has been around since '81. I guess you
don't spend much time at game stores, since it's pretty visible (the 8+
supplements for PF should have made more impact than that...)
>> >Ars Magica
> The up and comer.
Uh, it's been out for about 15 years now Hardly an "up and comer".
Brett Slocum
write:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, James Wallis wrote:
>> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Here's a list from the previous poster:
>> >Palladium FRP
> Huh? You know, Until this thread, I didn't realize that Palladium
>HAD a FRP game. I assume it uses the RIFTS mechanics.
A friend of mine plays Palladium to the exclusion of most everything else.
You don't nose around your game store much, do you. Mine has a decent supply of
this stuff.
>> >GURPS Fantasy
> Isn't this out of print? But I must admit, I stil see this product
>on the shelves.
The Fantasy book is out-of-print, but most of the rest of the fantasy support
titles are in print: Magic (spells), Grimoire (more spells), Fantasy Folk
(races), Places of Mystery (locales), Religion (religion creation and powers),
and Wizards (characters and templates).
>> >Ars Magica
> The up and comer.
I think this is much more of the established game than you give it credit for.
Bill McHale
Distribution:
Sidhain (sid...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Actually it doens't I dislike the system somewhat the Silhouette system
: isn't bad, just not dynamic and detailed (its dynamic I'll admit but kind of
: un syngeristic- I mean the success fail rate is pretty narrow really no
: degrees of success)
Uh? Degree of success is equal to margin of success.
: That an I don't like the HG setting, nor do I really
: like Mekton Zeta's setting, but its designed to easily do whatever i like
: and HG cannot do things like stupid mech tricks allowing one to create
: Transformers, or it cannot do Evangelions' eva's nor Guyver (yes MZ+ can do
: it)
Well it may not be able to do everything, but the complete design rules
for Jovian Chronicles (which is modified slightly from HG) does allow for
transforming mechs. And I like the fact that everything is essentially on
the same scale.
: I ahve not seen JC very closely I liked it for Mekton where it was first
: published, but I like the practiacal worldless nature of MZ, cause I ahve
: several worlds all my own for it, now I could adapt HG, but its easier with
: MZ. (Not I don't dislike the System in a different setting or don't think I
: will I like the idea of Tribe 8)
Well there is enough info in JC so you can design all your own mechs and
weapons for them in Jovian Chronicles.
--
Bill
***************************************************************************
The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
***************************************************************************
Sidhain
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote in message ...
I concur mostly actually I like Smaller mecha (like heavy gear) small and
fast, and better than tanks (for speed, but not profile)
In fact most of my interest in Mecha other than having fun watching them on
screen is just really big powered armor...
I worked on a system but Mekton does it better....than I could.
Sidhain
Sidhain
Sidhain
Brian Wong
I agree.
: Comparing the current FRPG market to the current science fiction market you see
: quite clearly that the pickings are sparse for FRPGs -- and many of those
: pickings are tied very tightly to their source material or have a limited
: number of play options (Mage: Sorceror's Crusade, for example, requires you to
: play mages unless I am mistaken).
Not to mention that most of them are variations on the genre so extreme
as to turn away general appeal and lock themselves into a niche. Albiet
occaisionally a successful niche.
Really, there are almost no Fantasy RPG's in print. Despite it being
the genre most people 'play by default'. Publishers on the other hand keep
focusing on niche genres or Sci Fi that sells well for a season or two then
crashes.
By contrast, the one Fantasy RPG that has been getting publisher support
for decades still sells well. Despite the best efforts of those who dislike it's
mechanics, AD&D remains the only true option for straight fantasy. Fan demand
has been there for years, and many other fantasy systems have come and gone
with the fans demanding more and the publishers going back to the niches for
their short, seasonal sales-boosts.
Take GURPS done as fantasy and Fantasy Hero. Both under the right,
steady support of modules and worlds could have pushed out AD&D or at least
become steady breadwinners. But in both cases the fantasy lines got pushed
back in favor of fad games that did well for a while and then faded, leaving
their publishers to find a new fad. One publisher (SJG of GURPS) has had some
success with fad after fad, the other (Hero) has had lesser success and hangs
on due to a core fan group.
I think if a publisher had the guts to put out a straight fantasy RPG
and stand behind it with a good steady line of products and promotion; while
it might not storm the market, it would spread and keep them in business for
years to come.
I don't see a fantasy-bloat; I see a fantasy-vacuum.
Most of what's out there is highly hardwired to one specific setting that in
itself is not 'standard fantasy'.
Just once I'd like to see a publisher give me a system that lets me
have the character freedom of Fantasy Hero, with the world and module support
of AD&D. A system I could use in any fantasy setting; standard or niche, put
out by a publisher who keeps putting out worlds, suppliments, promotions, or
whatever for it. If not at a breakneck faster than you can buy it pace, then
at least at a steady flow.
I for one am sick of niche games. With but a few exceptions they
fade away within a year or two leaving all who bought into them in a vacuum.
Deadlands will likely be gone soon. Feng Shui has become the Tao of the past.
Ars Magica is dead to all but a core fan group who keep trading which fan gets
to publish it for the next few months. Tekumul is so obscure you can't even
find the novels it was based on anymore. Jorune had it's 15 minutes of fame.
TORG died. I'm hearing Earthdawn is in it's dying breaths. Paranoia justified
it's name.
Shadowrun and Rifts alone have survived. World Of Darkness was less a
niche game than an entire wide open genre that had been missed: Horror where
you are the horror.
Then there's licensed games. Come on guys... Has any of these ever
really had much success. This is like playing the lottery. Star Wars alone
did well. Indiana Jones? GhostBusters? Star Trek? Dr. Who? Conan? A few GURPS
books?
Marvel did well for a while. Under a better system it might have done
better. DC only grabbed a core crowd.
In general niche games and licenses don't do well, or only do well for
a short season.
So, back on topic.
1. Fantasy is the genre of choice for most roleplayers.
2. There've only been a small handful of fantasy games published for 'wide
release' (IE, published in large enough numbers that the average
store was able to get enough copies to support all it's customers)
3. Only one of these games has had any good followup support.
4. The one game that has had good followup support is also the most widely
known and heavily played RPG out there.
5. Every roleplayer today knows theres choices other than that one game, so
you can no longer claim that's why it's number one. It's simply because
for it's genre, it's the only well supported choice.
6. Time and time again, people say they buy that game for it's secondary
support and not it's core rules.
7. So, where's the competition?
From where I'm sitting; I don't see any. When I talk to other GM's
looking to run a fantasy game, most of them design their own game. Why? The
number one reason I get is not they like doing it; it's that they have no
choice. They simply can't find a fantasy RPG that gives them the freedom
for their setting and characters that they need. Typically these aren't people
trying to run some multi-genre, cross dimensional fantasy game. These are
guys trying to run straight swords & sorcery.
--
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__ Superhero WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Michael T. Richter
> Really, there are almost no Fantasy RPG's in print. Despite it being
>the genre most people 'play by default'. Publishers on the other hand keep
>focusing on niche genres or Sci Fi that sells well for a season or two then
>crashes.
Fantasy games in print that I can list off the top of my head:
- AD&D
- Chivalry & Sorcery
- Rolemaster
- Elric! (specific setting)
- Tribe 8 (specific setting)
- Earthdawn (is this still in print?)
- Harnmaster (specific setting)
That's all I can think of without looking at my gaming shelf. I've probably
missed some very obvious ones.
Now for "niche genres ... that [sell] well for a season or two then
[crash]", DP9 has been doing is doing two SF games (Heavy Gear, Jovian
Chronicles), one of which (Heavy Gear) has been around for over three years
now. Neither has "crashed". Ditto for Fading Suns -- it hasn't crashed
yet.
>Despite the best efforts of those who dislike it's
>mechanics, AD&D remains the only true option for straight fantasy.
For sufficiently vague definitions of "only true option" of course.
Chivalry & Sorcery isn't a true option for what reason? Rolemaster isn't a
true option for what reason? Earthdawn isn't (wasn't?) a true option for
what reason?
> I think if a publisher had the guts to put out a straight fantasy RPG
>and stand behind it with a good steady line of products and promotion;
while
>it might not storm the market, it would spread and keep them in business
for
>years to come.
I thought Earthdawn was reasonably well-supported. I also thought that FASA
really only had three games. Why is it that the Earthdawn line is in
trouble? What "fad games" did FASA publish that killed Earthdawn (assuming
it is killed)?
>Most of what's out there is highly hardwired to one specific setting that
in
>itself is not 'standard fantasy'.
Like Chivalry & Sorcery or Rolemaster?
> Just once I'd like to see a publisher give me a system that lets me
>have the character freedom of Fantasy Hero, with the world and module
support
>of AD&D. A system I could use in any fantasy setting; standard or niche,
put
>out by a publisher who keeps putting out worlds, suppliments, promotions,
or
>whatever for it. If not at a breakneck faster than you can buy it pace,
then
>at least at a steady flow.
You've heard of this substance called "money" I presume? Most people who
publish games do so with the intent of doing exactly what you want.
Unfortunately their core rules don't sell well enough to keep publishing at
the rate you want (think Highlander Games). Without the sales, they can't
finance the publication. It's a pretty simple concept.
> I for one am sick of niche games.
Here I agree wholeheartedly.
>With but a few exceptions they
>fade away within a year or two leaving all who bought into them in a
vacuum.
But this I question. Do the rules mysteriously fade when the company stops
publishing? (I think I know what you mean, but I also think you're taking
it a bit far. I ran C&S2 for YEARS after FGU went effectively defunct, for
example.)
>Deadlands will likely be gone soon.
Agreed. This was about as niche as it gets. :-)
>Feng Shui has become the Tao of the past.
For a myriad of reasons. It was actually quite popular in the store I deal
with mostly.
>Ars Magica is dead to all but a core fan group who keep trading which fan
gets
>to publish it for the next few months.
ROFL.
>Tekumul is so obscure you can't even find the novels it was based on
anymore.
You've got it backwards. The novels came well after the game.
> Then there's licensed games. Come on guys... Has any of these ever
>really had much success. This is like playing the lottery.
I'll agree on that. Playing the license game is a lottery.
>Star Wars alone
>did well.
Not quite true. The FASA Star Trek game was around for a while before it
died because of Paramount's neglect. Properly managed, a Star Trek license
could be kept alive for a long time. It is, after all, one of the most
popular franchise shows in history.
There is also the point that you have to make a good game, even for a
licensed product. (Maybe even ESPECIALLY for a licensed product.) That's
why The Babylon Project will also die soon.
>1. Fantasy is the genre of choice for most roleplayers.
Mostly due to inertia, however. A common thing across my gaming years was
having AD&D types actually not realize it was possible to do the same thing
in SF. (It kind of weirded me out the first few times I encountered this,
to tell you the truth.)
>2. There've only been a small handful of fantasy games published for 'wide
> release' (IE, published in large enough numbers that the average
> store was able to get enough copies to support all it's customers)
Welcome to life. It costs money to get to that stage.
>3. Only one of these games has had any good followup support.
Welcome to life. It costs money to get to that stage.
>4. The one game that has had good followup support is also the most widely
> known and heavily played RPG out there.
Mostly by virtue of being first on the scene.
>5. Every roleplayer today knows theres choices other than that one game, so
> you can no longer claim that's why it's number one. It's simply because
> for it's genre, it's the only well supported choice.
Welcome to life. It costs money to get to that stage.
>6. Time and time again, people say they buy that game for it's secondary
> support and not it's core rules.
>7. So, where's the competition?
Trying to get the money to do an assault on an entrenched product in a
fringe market.
woodelf
> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
wrote:
> [snip]
> >Providence (fantasy plus superheroes) from XID Creations.
>
> Can anyone offer opinions on this? I like the idea on just that reading,
> but I'd like to know how the setting is handled (superhero equivalents in
> a medievalish fantasy setting would affect war, construction, research,
> transportation, defense against Big Nasty Things, government, etc.) Does
> XID Creations have a web page or other net presence?
<http://www.idcreative.com/>
it's not at *all* a medievalish fantasy setting. the game is set inside a
hollow world, which has been used as a prison colony for a whole world for
millenia. which means that the big nasty demons of old were exiled there,
as well as political prisoners after each of the last 2 world wars. the
demon-thing created a sun and life in the planet, making it habitable.
there are several different generations of exiles, separated by thousands
of years in arrival, and thus very different from one another. the
original exiles were all winged (think angels and demons for appearance,
though it's more bat-people and bird-people). however, something about
the planet causes super-fast evolution, so the oldest denizens have all
become wingless (and better able to deal with the new world) and even the
most recent have a good portion of the population without functional
wings. the prison camps have for the most part been liberated, as the
wardens realized that they had been abandoned by the folks back home, too,
and they needed a useful population to deal with the new threats of the
new world. much of the world still hasn't been explored. their style of
magic (from the old world) is fairly potent, but has the side effect in
this new world of tearing reality apart over the long-haul. superpowers
appeared spontaneously a couple of generations ago, and have seriously
reworked the social structure since then. there is essentially no metal,
so hardened resins and woods replace it in most applications. some
crystal for materials, too.
i can't really do the setting justice in this space; check out their
website for a reasonable preview. it's really very original, and resists
pigeon-holing; much like Jorune, actually. [n.b.: i don't know it well
enough yet to decide whether or not it deserves comparing to Jorune for
depth/detail of setting.]
woodelf <*>
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
It's like I've always said, you can get more with a kind word and a
2x4 than a kind word. --Marcus Cole
Justin Mohareb
"Sidhain" (sid...@earthlink.net) writes:
>
>
> Actually it doens't I dislike the system somewhat the Silhouette system
> isn't bad, just not dynamic and detailed (its dynamic I'll admit but kind of
> un syngeristic- I mean the success fail rate is pretty narrow really no
This I have to quibble with. No degrees of success? What do you think the
Margins of Failure & Success are for?
JJ Mohareb
--
Read the Bitter Guide to Science Fiction and Fantasy at
http://www.connect.ab.ca/~garyh/cansfrg/columns/bg/
Edition seven is now out. Read it, if you want to see the girl alive again.
Randy Monk
Please elucidate, o wise ones.
John C Stepp
: bdy...@network.boxmail.com wrote in message
: <6oet6n$ohb$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
: >Can anyone offer opinions on this? I like the idea on just that reading,
: >but I'd like to know how the setting is handled (superhero equivalents in
I haven't gotten far enough to consider implications of Shard powers. I'm
still trying to get a feel for the general Providence society.
No metals (plant surrogates), readily available magic, flight-capable
populace, overly hostile environment, very odd environment, caste system,
city-state structure, guilds, etc.
As per usual for RPGs, the designers threw in a bunch of "neat ideas" w/o
any effort to integrate them.
Looking just at the Shards, I think the Guilds are a little too narrow.
Your choices are Healer, Soldier, Scout, or Assassin. Were I to run
Providence, I'd expand the options (builders, bodyguards, craftsmen,
etc.).
I like many of the odd ideas in Providence, but the game's way too pricey
for me to buy more than the World Book.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| John Stepp || True heroics must be |
| University of Central Florida|| carefully planned...and |
| Orlando, FL, USA || strenuously avoided. |
| jcs7...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu || |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Dan Bongard
:> David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) wrote:
:>: Earthdawn: The game of high magic and high horror. Simple enough, eh?
:> How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
:> it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
:> room for 'horror' in there.
: Have you seen any horror films in the past ten years?
Yes.
: Aliens is a nice comparison.
"Aliens" is not considered a horror film by any movie critic -- or
any "Aliens" fan -- that I know. It is generally considered an
action film or a science fiction film.
: The Changeling could be run in Earthdawn.
"Toon" could be run in Earthdawn. You can run any game of any genre
in any system. The question is: do things like "The Changeling" and
"Carnival of Souls" work as horror in an Earthdawn setting? Answer:
no, not really.
: Souls, as well. Looking towards classic horror fiction, things from
: The Keep to The Shining to House on the Borderlands to even The King
: in Yellow are all aspects of horror that Earthdawn could easily use.
Except they wouldn't be frightening. How scary would "The Shining" have
been if the ENTIRE civilized world accepted that houses-haunted-by-
evil-spirits and little-kids-with-psychic-powers were not merely
legitimate concerns, but common problems? Answer: not well at all.
"The Keep" would fail for similar reasons -- "oh, another imprisoned
Horror? Damn it, we just sprayed for those last week."
See, the thing that makes the above horror films horrifying to the people
in them is that the things they are facing are (a) unknown and (b)
completely at odds with the world they understand. Horrors, undead,
etc, are all known, well-documented phenomena in the Earthdawn world.
The things that make these stories horrifying to the _audience_ are
the writing style -- and you can count the authors capable of writing
consistently scary books on one hand, and none of them work at FASA --
and the same "unknown" factor that scares the characters in the book.
The latter doesn't work the second time around, which is why people
talk about how scary Alien is, but talk about how 'cool' Aliens is
(indeed, the part of that movie people comment on the most is
Bill Paxton's wisecracking Hudson.
: You have a "race" of vastly powerful, immaterial beings who delight
: in playing very nasty, brutal, lethal tricks on humans. I can't imagine
: any GM NOT being able to think up a horror-based scenario given such
: an enterouge of rogues.
There is more to a "horror-based scenario" than simply trapping the
PCs in a house with some things with tentacles. The PCs AND the players
both _know_ horrors exist, and both _know_ horrors come in all sorts
of nasty forms, and both _know_ that Horrors delight in causing pain
and suffering. Ergo no GM can create a "horror" scenario for the game.
He can create a scenario that qalks and quacks like a horror scenario
but isn't very scary, sure -- but he can't create a horror scenario.
Indeed, "massively powerful inhuman extradimensional beings who
delight in torturing the human race" is a _seriously_ tired and
worn-out concept in horror in general. The last new ideas in the
genre were published before World War II. The successful horror
stories of the post-WWII era have been existential horror, which
Earthdawn is not set up for.
:> genre is "the unknown"; the other is isolation. The PCs in Earthdawn
:> are residents in a world where the threats are fairly well-known and
:> pretty much _everybody_ is there to help you fight them.
: Everybody?
No, you fucking nimrod. PRETTY MUCH everybody. As in "most people, but
not ALL people." How could you possibly misquote me when the original
text is staring you in the face?
: The Hand of Corruption ain't. The Questors of Raggok aren't.
: The Questors of Vestrial could care less either way.
And these three groups -- they make up roughly what percentage of
mankind (by which I mean "sentient civilized beings")? Hint: they
don't represent a significant portion of the population. Ergo my
comment that "pretty much everybody" is on your side still stands.
-- Dan
Dan Bongard
: On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:54:10 GMT, dbon...@netcom.com (Dan Bongard)
: wrote:
:> How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
:> it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
: Actually, they're not.
So you are denying that pretty much everybody is familiar with the
existance of Horrors? Yes, there are horros whose powers are unknown,
but it is KNOWN that there are horrors whose powers are unknown.
Ergo if you meet a horror with some 'new' set of powers, it isn't
going to be much of a surprise to you or to anybody else.
: Kind of like CoC; we know what Cthulhu looks like, we know
: about the Great Race and the Mi-Go and the shoggoths, but do you
: really want to screw with them? Even the most hardened investigator,
: with enough magical knowledge that is SAN is teetering on the brink of
: lockdown, is going to hesitate to go up against something
: well-documented, and possibly will run screaming from something he
: hasn't seen (or read about) before.
That isn't what makes Call of Cthulhu a horror game, however. The
thing that makes it a horror game is that neither the player nor
the character has ANY idea about what's out there. It may be
nothing, or it may be anything. This is not the case in Earthdawn;
the knowledge that there are creatures who delight in torturing
humans and eat dragons for lunch is well-known. The big thing in
Call of Cthulhu is that the investigators are, by and large, ALONE.
If they told anybody what was going on, people would think they
were nuts.
BTW, the "heasitation to fight Cthulhu monsters" has nothing to do
with horror. Primarily it is a self-preservation instinct; most
creatures can pretty easily kick your ass.
: Also, the Horrors book only details a few of the nasty things.
Look, let's cut the crap here: try naming a "horrifying" horror;
one that would inspire horror or terror (not mere "fear of a really
powerful bad guy") in the PCs while simultaneously preventing them
from really receiving any help from outsiders. Sure, you could
concoct one or two haunted-house scenarios -- you can do that in
ANY system, even "Toon" -- butyou can't base a _campaign_ off
horror unless you can maintain the PC's isolation.
The great Horrors are nigh-omnipotent. There's really nowhere to
go from there.
-- Dan
Ryan Johnson
> on due to a core fan group.
>
> I think if a publisher had the guts to put out a straight fantasy RPG and stand behind it with a good steady line of products and promotion; while it might not storm the market, it would spread and keep them in business for years to come.<
This is basically what the Guild has planned for the Dark Realms RPG.
The core rules are purely basic fantasy: no worlds, no multi-genre stuff
-- just a very simple fantasy system with a lot of freedom to add your
own stuff if you wanted to. The Dark Realms game engine was originally
designed to support multiple genres from the beginning, but we put out
the core rules in just fantasy, and cheap, ($10) so more gamers could be
exposed to it. Now as our supplements start rolling off the press we are
spreading the game system into two genres, those being fantasy and
sci-fi. We'll likely get cyberpunkish setting book out some time next
year, though we'll not likely focus too much on that genre. Much effort
is going to be put into allowing the game to be used for 1) plain, good
old fantasy, 2) hard core sci-fi, and 3) a nice blend of the two.
But at current the simple fact is the Dark Realms has not achieved great
market penetration yet. Its a small game released by a still somewhat
new company to the market. But the sales for the game have continued to
rise since its release 6 months ago, even though we've been slow in
getting our first six supplements to press. That alone does indeed show
that there is a lot of interest in seeing a new or multiple new fantasy
systems.
We do promise our gamers that there are three world books for the Dark
Realms in the works currently and we will be releasing as soon as it
becomes viable to do so. One is the tip of the iceburg to a
comprehensive galactic setting that has been under construction for over
ten years now, and the other two are fantasy worlds. One fantasy world
supports pure fantasy adventures and interaction with Dark mystical
forces from the Dark Realms; the other fantasy world is largely fantasy
based, but does have a little interaction with some technological
elements from the first above mentioned setting. All three are tied
together in the same grand story line.
Ryan S Johnson
--
---------------------------------------------------
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
(Member of the GPA)
Contacts:
Ryan O. Johnson - President (sales & product inquires)
Bruce P. Dowrie - Vice President
John L. Ross - Webmaster
Web: http://www.guildofblades.com
e-mail: guildo...@guildofblades.com
Office: Guild of Blades
9195 Sandison
White Lake, MI 48386
Phone: (517) 371-4909
Carl Perkins
}David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) wrote:
}: Dan Bongard writes:
}:> David R. Henry (dhe...@plains.NoDak.edu) wrote:
}
}:>: Earthdawn: The game of high magic and high horror. Simple enough, eh?
}
}:> it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
}
}: Have you seen any horror films in the past ten years?
}
}Yes.
[yadda, yada, yadda]
}Except they wouldn't be frightening. How scary would "The Shining" have
}been if the ENTIRE civilized world accepted that houses-haunted-by-
}evil-spirits and little-kids-with-psychic-powers were not merely
}legitimate concerns, but common problems? Answer: not well at all.
}"The Keep" would fail for similar reasons -- "oh, another imprisoned
}Horror? Damn it, we just sprayed for those last week."
}
}See, the thing that makes the above horror films horrifying to the people
}in them is that the things they are facing are (a) unknown and (b)
}completely at odds with the world they understand. Horrors, undead,
}etc, are all known, well-documented phenomena in the Earthdawn world.
}The things that make these stories horrifying to the _audience_ are
}the writing style -- and you can count the authors capable of writing
}consistently scary books on one hand, and none of them work at FASA --
}and the same "unknown" factor that scares the characters in the book.
}-- Dan
Here's a perfectly good horror scenario for Earthdawn: people are
turning up dead and mutilated. After going through whatever it takes
to figure it out, it turns out that it was a human behind it. He is
not under the influence of any Horror or insane Passion or any such
thing - they've never even heard of him. It's just a very samrt, very
deranged, perfectly normal human (except that he likes to cut people
up in a rather gruesome manner).
This would be good after the PCs ahve gone through a couple of Horror
hunt type scenarios so that they will be expecting another Horror. You
could even make them think it was a Horror they already killed off by
having the human duplicating the ritualistic layout of the victims'
parts used by the Horror - he just happens to have heard about it and
decided it sounded like fun. No matter what the PCs do, they can't find
any trace of Horror magic, and the astral space in the area doesn't seem
to be affected they way it normally is by the presence of a Horror. It
could get very spooky for them before they figure it out. At first it
would appear to be something they have seen before, but as the adventure
progresses it dives into that "unknown" area and the group would likely
not understand the world of a serial killer, making it fit criteria B
as well.
It is quite possible to do horron in almost any setting. You just have
to do somthing that the players are not expecting or, preferably, do
something that plays off their expectations so that the assumptions they
bring to the adventure turn out to be wrong, but it takes them a while
to figure that out.
--- Carl
Triad3204
(woodelf) writes:
>i think we're either looking at different games, or different genres.
>sticking just to more-or-less swordsnsorcery and/or high fantasy (i.e.,
>not things like Bunnies & Burrows or SkyRealms of Jorune), i come up with
>the following "traditional fantasy" RPGs: D&D, AD&D, Earthdawn,
>RuneQuest, ARs Magica, HarnMaster, Chivalry & Sorcery, Pendragon, Of Gods
>and Men, Legends of Yore, Warhammer FRP, MERP, RoleMaster, Palladium
>Fantasy, Everway, HERO (Fantasy HERO), GURPS (GURPS Fantasy), Providence
>(sorta), just off the top of my head. that doesn't include 3 new ones i
>saw at GenCon last year (but whose names i forget). (nor does it
>include any others i've forgotten, or course.) now, Mecha RPGs:
>MechWarrior, Heavy Gear, Armored Trooper Votoms, perhaps Bubblegum Crisis
>and Jovian Chronicles. are their any others (Robotech, Mekton) in print?
>Space opera RPGs: The Babylon Project, Star Wars, Fading Suns, Alternity,
>Trinity, Jovian Chronicles. horror: Kult, Lost Souls, Call of Cthulhu,
>Asylum, Deadlands (sorta), Earthdawn (sorta). modern fantasy: Changeling,
>Werewolf, Wraith, Vampire, Mage, Immortal, The Everlasting, The Power, The
>23rd Letter, Legacy, Witchcraft, Nephilim, Whispering Vault, Over the
>Edge, Armageddon (sorta), perhaps Feng Shui. supers: Champions, GURPS
>(GURPS Supers), Providence. Cyberpunk: Cyperpunk 2020, ShadowRun
>(sorta). so, off the top of my head, the only genre i can think of that
>is *more* bloated than traditional fantasy is perhaps modern fantasy.
>now, i agree that most of those games aren't interchangeable, due to
>setting details. but neither are most of the games in the other genres.
>but, if sheer number of pseudo-competitors really is the measure of
>bloatedness, then the FRPG market is. personally, i think that consumers
>are smarter than that, and while they might consider, say, HarnMaster and
>C&S vaguely interchangeable, they won't consider, say, Pendragon and
>RoleMaster interchangeable, and thus they aren't competitive. but if i'm
>right, than Earthdawn is in a genre of 1: high fantasy-horror hybrid, and
>it didn't have *any* competitors. i know that when i heard about it, i
>rejected it not because i already had a game for that, but because it
>didn't interst me (while i've rejected 2/3rds of the traditional fantasy
>list above because i already had a game that i thought was close enough in
>flavor to do the trick).
To break those lists into a slightly more readable format (and remove GURPS and
HERO because they apply to all genres):
FRPG: AD&D, Earthdawn, RuneQuest, Ars Magica, HarnMaster, C&S, Pendragon, Of
Gods and Men, Legends of Yore, Warhammer FRP, MERP, RoleMaster, Palladium
Fantasy, Everway, Providence (sorta).
Mecha: MechWarrior, Heavy Gear, Armored Trooper Votoms, Bubblegum Crisis,
Jovian Chronicles, Robotech, Mekton.
Horror: Kult, Lost Souls, Call of Cthulu, Asylum, Deadlands.
Modern Fantasy: WoD games, Immortal, the Everlasting, the Power, The 23rd
Letter, Legacy, Witchcraft, Nephilim, Whispering Vault, Over the Edge,
Armageddon (sorta), Feng Shui (perhaps).
Cyberpunk: Cyberpunk 2020, ShadowRun
But let's trim the fat and look at the "major systems" (defined by having a
large amount of support).
Fantasy: AD&D, Ars Magica, Rolemaster/MERP, Palladium FRP. [D&D and RuneQuest
are both dead systems.]
Mecha: Heavy Gear, Mechwarrior, Robotech, perhaps Jovian Chronicles.
Horror: Kult, Call of Cthulu, Deadlands (maybe).
Modern Fantasy: WoD games, Over the Edge, Immortal, Tribe 8 (if you're for
post-apocalyptic)
But let's not forget science fiction: Fading Suns, Trinity, Alternity, Babylon
Project.
So, again, I don't really see the glut. Especially once you discount AD&D.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
woodelf
R. Henry) wrote:
> Dan Bongard writes:
> >How is it a horror game? The Terrors Out to Destroy Life As We Know
> >it are well-known and well-documented. I don't see where there is
> >room for 'horror' in there.
>
> Have you seen any horror films in the past ten years? Aliens is a nice
> comparison. The Changeling could be run in Earthdawn. Carnival of
> Souls, as well. Looking towards classic horror fiction, things from
> The Keep to The Shining to House on the Borderlands to even The King
> in Yellow are all aspects of horror that Earthdawn could easily use.
Aliens isn't horror, it's action. Alien was horror. i recognize only a
couple of the books you list, but those i would definitely consider
"suspense" not "horror." and every so-called horror film i've seen in the
last ten years was a suspense film. horror has gotten damn rare in films,
IMHO, since Hitchcock's death, with suspense and gore replacing it.
> You have a "race" of vastly powerful, immaterial beings who delight
> in playing very nasty, brutal, lethal tricks on humans. I can't imagine
> any GM NOT being able to think up a horror-based scenario given such
> an enterouge of rogues.
now, that i could see possibly being horror. but then i never doubted the
horror potential of Earthdawn.
That's one cabinet that will never threaten us again. --Talia Winters
Deirdre M. Brooks
>Look, let's cut the crap here: try naming a "horrifying" horror;
>one that would inspire horror or terror (not mere "fear of a really
>powerful bad guy") in the PCs while simultaneously preventing them
>from really receiving any help from outsiders. Sure, you could
>concoct one or two haunted-house scenarios -- you can do that in
>ANY system, even "Toon" -- butyou can't base a _campaign_ off
>horror unless you can maintain the PC's isolation.
Isolating the PCs doesn't require an omnipotent, or even powerful horror.
It simply requires a properly motivated entity.
One is described, actually. Can't recall the name, but it keeps one
namegiver woman alive and young. If she ever settles down, it kills
everyone close to her. Sometimes, it lets her think she has the upper hand
- then acts.
I'd say she's fairly isolated. You can create variations on the same
scenario without ever having to use an incredibly powerful creature - it
need not even appear for some time.
It's not impossible to attain the "horrific" mood, although it may be
difficult at times.
I've managed to evoke that mood in Werewolf, which I feel has similar
themes...
Michael T. Richter
said.
--
Michael T. Richter
m...@ottawa.com
http://www.igs.net/~mtr
John C Stepp wrote in message <6ofv6s$48p$1...@news.cc.ucf.edu>...
Bruce Baugh
>So, again, I don't really see the glut. Especially once you discount AD&D.
Um, the point is precisely that you can't discount AD&D.
There's a theory floating around among some game creators, who hold it
with attitudes ranging from quiet annoyance to a sort of amused good
will, to the effect that a lot of gamers don't actually want a really
smooth, elegant, integrated set of rules. There are various reasons
for this.
1. In many hobbies, Knowing Lots Of Stuff is a status symbol. Consider
the sports fan who knows all the stats for his favored sport back to
the hoary mists of prehistory. This is particularly important among
teens, who are unlikely to be able to earn status on the basis of
wealth or major accomplishment - there just aren't that many Raymond
Laus out there. (He's the author of StuffIt, the #1 Macintosh
compression program, and wrote it as a high-schooler.) A roleplaying
game with lots of fiddly bits provides more opportunity for the
exercise of intellectual prowess, just as Advanced Squad Leader
provides more opportunity for this than One-Page Bulge.
2. Arguing about rules interpretation is part of the gaming
experience, during which a group takes the raw material of the game
and makes it the group's own. People often feel more attachment to the
thing they had to bang into shape than the one that worked perfectly
from the outset.
There are other reasons, but that'll do for starters.
So a fantasy game out to make a niche for itself in the market has to
do some things AD&D doesn't without losing aspects of AD&D that are
from the point of view of coherent design bad ideas but socially
perhaps actualy benefits.
The very fact that it takes work to make AD&D do a lot of interesting
settings is probably an asset when it comes to actual play.
--
http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/
Rolegaming, writing tools, miscellany
The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and
high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on
the contrary, it increases the desire to walk. -- Massimo d'Azeglio
Red
>
> : Comparing the current FRPG market to the current science fiction market you see
> : quite clearly that the pickings are sparse for FRPGs -- and many of those
> : pickings are tied very tightly to their source material or have a limited
> : number of play options (Mage: Sorceror's Crusade, for example, requires you to
> : play mages unless I am mistaken).
>
> Not to mention that most of them are variations on the genre so extreme
> as to turn away general appeal and lock themselves into a niche. Albiet
> occaisionally a successful niche.
>
But what is the genre, really? I have a lot of trouble working with
vanilla fantasy systems, because I find that the metaphysics of magic
are inextrivably bound to the internal logic of one world that I cannot
use a generic system - the magic stops being magical, for me. I find
SOD very hard in games in which the magic just seems an excuse for
special effects; and I find generalised magic systems implausible when
applied to most specific fantasy settings. I think the very nature of
magic/religion is a major plot driver in fantasy gaming, and so I feel
it has to be carefully tailored to a specific setting. A system which,
for example, includes "raise dead" effects may be utterly innaproriate
to some metaphysics, so right at system choice you are also making a
setting choice. There is a big difference between magical effects
powered by gods, or by spirits, or by animism, or by alchemy or
whatever, and this really makes a difference to how the world works. As
a result, I find niche fantasy games the ONLY ones that work for me.
Peter M. White
>
> 1. In many hobbies, Knowing Lots Of Stuff is a status symbol. Consider
> the sports fan who knows all the stats for his favored sport back to
> the hoary mists of prehistory. This is particularly important among
> teens, who are unlikely to be able to earn status on the basis of
> wealth or major accomplishment - there just aren't that many Raymond
> Laus out there. (He's the author of StuffIt, the #1 Macintosh
> compression program, and wrote it as a high-schooler.) A roleplaying
> game with lots of fiddly bits provides more opportunity for the
> exercise of intellectual prowess, just as Advanced Squad Leader
> provides more opportunity for this than One-Page Bulge.
>
> 2. Arguing about rules interpretation is part of the gaming
> experience, during which a group takes the raw material of the game
> and makes it the group's own. People often feel more attachment to the
> thing they had to bang into shape than the one that worked perfectly
> from the outset.
Those are indeed probably minor but genuine reasons while AD&D has such
market momentum. But I am sure it does not imply that a "bad" new
system will sell better than a "good" new one.
What I have observed is that a "bad" system will be well tolerated when
a market is young and newer systems are held to a higher standard. Look
at the CCG market. Within two years, any system that had rules half as
complicated and ugly as Magic was DOA. And, um, look at AD&D.
--Peter White
Turtle
I agree with you.There is no fantasy rpg out there that has the scope of
AD&D.I dont think that games like Ars Magica count,which is dedicated to a
single character class,the mage,and the game universe is centered around
this class,everyting sorted in relevance to this special character.
The game universe should be the main attraction of a frpg,and the character
classes should come out of this world,they are produced by this world,which
is not primary there to react towards their actions.Thats what Ad&D does
with its world backgrounds,they are basically open towards all character
classes that could exist in a medieval fantasy environment.Sure,they differ
in tone and atmosphere,but you can play every adventure there without being
restricted to a certain theme.
Those overspecialized games are no real universal fantasy roleplaying
games,universal not being a universal rules systm,but a world setting,like
the Forgotten Realms for AD&D.And you get pretty soon tired of those
games,because no one wants to play the same character type over and over
again.And because the game universe has to function properly with this
overspecialized character,not many other stories are possible there.
So,in my opinion,there is only AD&D as the only real fantasy system out
there international.by the way,I dont play it.
We in Germany have "Das Schwarze Auge",which is way bigger here than AD&D in
terms of sold units and fan base.Its a fantasy rpg wÃth a HUGE and almost
OVERDETAILED medieval game world,some of you americans may know "Realms of
Arkania",this computer game uses the background from Das Schwarze Auge,being
originally published here.
Michael T. Richter
>There is no fantasy rpg out there that has the scope of AD&D.
<boggle!>
What?!?!?!
In what way does AD&D have more scope than, say, Chivalry & Sorcery or
Rolemaster (to name two generic fantasy games off the top of my head)? In
what way does it offer more scope than CORPS, GURPS and Hero (to name three
generic games off the top of my head)?
>The game universe should be the main attraction of a frpg,
And since AD&D has no game universe, your initial point is blown.
>and the character
>classes should come out of this world,
And how do you deal with characters who can't be shoe-horned into AD&D
classes? How do you deal with the fact that character classes are a very
poor model of anything at all?
>Thats what Ad&D does
>with its world backgrounds,they are basically open towards all character
>classes that could exist in a medieval fantasy environment.
So now AD&D's scope is limited to medieval fantasy environments. This
contradicts your opening statement.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
woodelf <nbar...@students.wisc.edu> spake:
>In article <6oet6n$ohb$1...@samba.rahul.net>, bdy...@network.boxmail.com wrote:
>> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
>wrote:
>> [snip]
>it's not at *all* a medievalish fantasy setting. the game is set inside a
>hollow world, which has been used as a prison colony for a whole world for
>millenia. which means that the big nasty demons of old were exiled there,
>as well as political prisoners after each of the last 2 world wars. the
>demon-thing created a sun and life in the planet, making it habitable.
>there are several different generations of exiles, separated by thousands
>of years in arrival, and thus very different from one another. the
>original exiles were all winged (think angels and demons for appearance,
>though it's more bat-people and bird-people). however, something about
>the planet causes super-fast evolution, so the oldest denizens have all
>become wingless (and better able to deal with the new world) and even the
>most recent have a good portion of the population without functional
>wings. the prison camps have for the most part been liberated, as the
>wardens realized that they had been abandoned by the folks back home, too,
>and they needed a useful population to deal with the new threats of the
>new world. much of the world still hasn't been explored. their style of
>magic (from the old world) is fairly potent, but has the side effect in
>this new world of tearing reality apart over the long-haul. superpowers
>appeared spontaneously a couple of generations ago, and have seriously
>reworked the social structure since then. there is essentially no metal,
>so hardened resins and woods replace it in most applications. some
>crystal for materials, too.
Ah, so it's Synnibarr, then?
Brett Slocum
>The Illuminated Masters let hug...@ugsparc0.eecg.toronto.edu (Allister Huggins)
>write:
>
>>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, James Wallis wrote:
>>> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >Here's a list from the previous poster:
>>> >Palladium FRP
>> Huh? You know, Until this thread, I didn't realize that Palladium
>>HAD a FRP game. I assume it uses the RIFTS mechanics.
>
>A friend of mine plays Palladium to the exclusion of most everything else.
>You don't nose around your game store much, do you. Mine has a decent supply of
>this stuff.
On rereading this, I'd like to apologize for the snide tone. I should have just
passed this off as regional differences.
---
Brett Slocum -- slo...@io.com -- ICQ #13032903
* New Illuminated Sitekeeper for Steve Jackson Games - send neat sites
* GURPS site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/gurps.html
* Tekumel site: http://www.io.com/~slocum/tekumel.html
"Ah'm yer pa, Luke." -- if James Earl Ray was the voice of Darth Vader
WinningerR
a market is young and newer systems are held to a higher standard. Look
at the CCG market. Within two years, any system that had rules half as
Actually, as far as RPGs go, I don't think the quality of the system (at least
as any single one of us might rate it) is as significant to sales as many
people believe.
The problem is that there's no real consensus as to how an RPG should operate.
Each group plays so differently, that what is considered a terrible system by
one group is probably a great system in the eyes of another group.
I've studied and designed these damned games for years. I've slowly developed
my own objective and thoughtful criteria for what (I believe) makes a good
game. Yet two or three games that I rate as terrible (and I could fill many
pages with objective reasons that explain my opinion) are some of the best
sellers of all time.
Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, I
don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an excellent
game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever been
able to duplicate.
woodelf
kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:
> Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:55:45 -0500:
> woodelf <nbar...@students.wisc.edu> spake:
> >it's not at *all* a medievalish fantasy setting. the game is set inside a
[poor description of providence. snip]
> Ah, so it's Synnibarr, then?
i didn't see any similarities, but then i never looked very hard at
Synnibar. unlike Providence, it turned me off around page 3. Providence
had me hooked by page 3. (was Synnibar the one in a generation starship,
a la Starship? if so, i *suppose* you could see the analogy to the exile
in a hollow world of Providence.)
We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers.
We study the mysteries of laser and circuit,
Crystal and scanner, holographic demons,
And invocations of equations.
These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. --Elric
Adam J
wrote:
>What's the source that says Earthdawn is dead?
FASA announced it official at Origins.
>could this be just a rumor?
Nope, and it's a little late for an April fools day joke.
-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / f...@lis.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
James Wallis
And Alien3 was a horror.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Warhammer is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, used with permission
Company motto: "Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo"
John or Christine Thompson
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote in message <6oi57l$64s$1...@user1.teleport.com>...
>One is described, actually. Can't recall the name, but it keeps one
>namegiver woman alive and young.
I believe that's Chantrel's Horror.
Dan Bongard
: >Look, let's cut the crap here: try naming a "horrifying" horror;
: >one that would inspire horror or terror (not mere "fear of a really
: >powerful bad guy") in the PCs while simultaneously preventing them
: >from really receiving any help from outsiders. Sure, you could
: >concoct one or two haunted-house scenarios -- you can do that in
: >ANY system, even "Toon" -- butyou can't base a _campaign_ off
: >horror unless you can maintain the PC's isolation.
: Isolating the PCs doesn't require an omnipotent, or even powerful horror.
I never said it did.
: It simply requires a properly motivated entity.
Whether or not the entity is "motivated" has nothing to do with
whether or not the characters are isolated. Sure, you COULD take
Earthdawn characters and stick them into a haunted-house situation,
but that's not the default state of the game. The default state is
that basically everybody believes in horros and knows they can do
VERY bad things to people -- in other words, there is no room for
emotional or social isolation in Earthdawn, and _physical_ isolation
can be accomplished in ANY system.
-- Dan
James Wallis
wrote:
>The Illuminated Masters let slo...@io.com (Brett Slocum) write:
>
>>The Illuminated Masters let hug...@ugsparc0.eecg.toronto.edu (Allister
>Huggins)
>>write:
>>
>>>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, James Wallis wrote:
>>>> In article <35aa5592...@news.io.com>, Brett Slocum <slo...@io.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >Here's a list from the previous poster:
>>>> >Palladium FRP
>>> Huh? You know, Until this thread, I didn't realize that Palladium
>>>HAD a FRP game. I assume it uses the RIFTS mechanics.
>>
>>A friend of mine plays Palladium to the exclusion of most everything else.
>>You don't nose around your game store much, do you. Mine has a decent supply
>of
>>this stuff.
>
>On rereading this, I'd like to apologize for the snide tone. I should have just
>passed this off as regional differences.
Incidentally, I also have not a clue about what my name is doing in the
attributions above. I didn't write any of the above stuff, and I know
full well that Palladium has a fantasy RPG -- I once played a campaign
of it, and I used to write for the company.
Disturbance
wrote:
>See, the thing that makes the above horror films horrifying to the people
>in them is that the things they are facing are (a) unknown and (b)
>completely at odds with the world they understand. Horrors, undead,
>etc, are all known, well-documented phenomena in the Earthdawn world.
Serial killers and spree killers are well-documented phenomena in our
world. Account for the success of "Scream" and "Scream 2".
Just because you know about something doesn't make it any less
terrifying. In fact, it may make it more so, because you =understand=
just how nasty the thing is that's coming after you.
>and suffering. Ergo no GM can create a "horror" scenario for the game.
>He can create a scenario that qalks and quacks like a horror scenario
>but isn't very scary, sure -- but he can't create a horror scenario.
Patently false. I can trot out a couple of scenarios of my own that
scared the pee ouf of the players.
Andrew Ragland
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1440/index.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/rhydin/91/index.htm
Deirdre M. Brooks
Yes it is. I'd call that an emotional or social isolation.
Deirdre M. Brooks
>: Isolating the PCs doesn't require an omnipotent, or even powerful horror.
>I never said it did.
No, rather I received the implication that you felt that way. That's why I
phrased it that way...also a bit of an introductory comment to lead into
the remainder of the post.
>: It simply requires a properly motivated entity.
>Whether or not the entity is "motivated" has nothing to do with
>whether or not the characters are isolated. Sure, you COULD take
>Earthdawn characters and stick them into a haunted-house situation,
>but that's not the default state of the game. The default state is
>that basically everybody believes in horros and knows they can do
>VERY bad things to people -- in other words, there is no room for
>emotional or social isolation in Earthdawn, and _physical_ isolation
>can be accomplished in ANY system.
This is true, and that belief can be used *against* the characters. I
don't speak of haunted house situation, or physical isolation. I
specifically mean emotional and social isolation. A horror (or simply a
properly motivated human antagonist) could utilize this belief (and their
own credibility, if applicable) to separate the PCs from anything, anyone
or anyplace they value.
A single horror marked individual can be used to great effect.
>-- Dan
Triad3204
writes:
> Really, there are almost no Fantasy RPG's in print. Despite it being
>the genre most people 'play by default'. Publishers on the other hand keep
>focusing on niche genres or Sci Fi that sells well for a season or two then
>crashes.
The reason for this, and I believe it fervently, is based on several things:
1. xD&D was the first RPG, and it remains the most commonly known RPG outside
of RPG circles. Therefore people are introduced to roleplaying through it, and
as a result are introduced to fantasy gaming. Hence AD&D has a rejuvenating
source of new buyers unfamiliar with it (which other games don't have nearly as
many of).
2. The mode of fantasy put forth by xD&D has received a great boon from its
wargaming parents -- it has a formula. You follow that formula and you can game
for *years* with it. Creating is hard, and the formula(s) which have been
attached to xD&D-style fantasy over the years (and we all know them) mean that
you don't have to work as hard to keep driving a setting forwards. Few other
settings have this advantage. [ Note: I think STAR TREK to be a great license
if it is done correctly. Why? Because it comes with an in-built formula. Your
characters serve onboard a starship. Each session you send them exploring a
sector of space or an alien world and the adventure happens. That's *easy*.
BABYLON 5, however, is an almost impossible license to pull off (even moreso
than Star Wars). The appeal of the show is an overarching plot involving a core
number of characters affecting the course of the galaxy's future. Duplicating
that in a game means leaving the show behind, not embracing it. ]
> I for one am sick of niche games. With but a few exceptions they
> fade away within a year or two leaving all who bought into them in a vacuum.
> Deadlands will likely be gone soon. Feng Shui has become the Tao of the past.
> Ars Magica is dead to all but a core fan group who keep trading which fan
gets
>to publish it for the next few months. Tekumul is so obscure you can't even
> find the novels it was based on anymore. Jorune had it's 15 minutes of fame.
> TORG died. I'm hearing Earthdawn is in it's dying breaths. Paranoia justified
> it's name.
But the biggest niche games of them all -- Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and
Changeling -- are also AD&D's biggest competitor.
Oops, failed formula.
Deadlands seems to be going strong, and is one of the industry's top sellers at
the moment, IIRC. Ars Magica has had some tough publishing history, but it's
still alive -- and isn't what I'd call a niche game exactly (how are you
defining that term exactly -- anything which isn't fantasy?). Feng Shui is an
unfair example because it died from incompetent business decisions. Tekumel has
never been a major product, again due to difficult publishing history (and the
game wasn't based on the novels -- nor were the novels exactly based on the
game; they are both based off of a fictional world created by Prof. Barker ...
oh, and which Tekumel game are you referring to? <g>).
The unpleasant reality is that the average lifespan of even a popular game in
this industry is not very long. This is equally true for niche games and
universal engines (of varying degrees of universality).
> Then there's licensed games. Come on guys... Has any of these ever
> really had much success. This is like playing the lottery. Star Wars alone
> did well. Indiana Jones? GhostBusters? Star Trek? Dr. Who? Conan? A few >
GURPS
Star Trek did quite well until the license caused problems for FASA.
> 1. Fantasy is the genre of choice for most roleplayers.
Only because most gamers play AD&D because most gamers were introduced to the
roleplaying through AD&D. Most gamers who move beyond AD&D diversify and play a
large selection of genres.
> 2. There've only been a small handful of fantasy games published for 'wide
> release' (IE, published in large enough numbers that the average
> store was able to get enough copies to support all it's customers)
I don't know what this means. I doubt there's any publishing company out there
saying, "Well, there's all these stores out there wanting to buy copies of my
game -- but I think I'll just hang back here and thwart them."
> 3. Only one of these games has had any good followup support.
EarthDawn had tons of support. It failed for FASA. Hmmm..... Ars Magica has had
more support than most games in this industry can hope for. According to you,
Ars Magica is a failure. Hmmm.... RoleMaster has a ton of support, but it
doesn't seem to be competing with AD&D particularly well.
> 4. The one game that has had good followup support is also the most widely
> known and heavily played RPG out there.
For reasons completely unassociated with the amount of support. (Admittedly,
the amount of support means that people playing AD&D never run out of books to
buy and, hence, never have a "need" to turn to other gaming systems -- I don't
think that's going to work with other games, though.)
> 5. Every roleplayer today knows theres choices other than that one game, so
> you can no longer claim that's why it's number one. It's simply because
> for it's genre, it's the only well supported choice.
Bzzt. Not every roleplayer does. Certainly not everyone who is *interested* in
becoming a roleplayer.
> 6. Time and time again, people say they buy that game for it's secondary
> support and not it's core rules.
Actually when I made that statement awhile back during an Alternity thread I
was told by several individuals they didn't give a rat's ass for the secondary
support material for a system.
> 7. So, where's the competition?
Unable to compete with a game which provides the entryway into the industry.
The one game which has successfully managed to seize some of this entryway
(Vampire) is also the chief competitor of AD&D.
> From where I'm sitting; I don't see any. When I talk to other GM's
> looking to run a fantasy game, most of them design their own game. Why? The
> number one reason I get is not they like doing it; it's that they have no
> choice. They simply can't find a fantasy RPG that gives them the freedom
> for their setting and characters that they need. Typically these aren't
people
> trying to run some multi-genre, cross dimensional fantasy game. These are
> guys trying to run straight swords & sorcery.
I think there is a definite lack of a simple fantasy system which duplicates
AD&D's formula. I wish that such a game did exist -- because it would mean that
GMs and players who wanted to leave AD&D would have option for directly porting
their characters and worlds without a great deal of hassle.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
Triad3204
kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
> I strongly dislike mecha. They're infantile power-fantasy (really huge
>powerful bodies that can smash puny humans under foot - could you get more
>blatantly 2-year-old-view-of-adults-ish?), and are totally implausible
>scientifically. Small power armor is plausible. Tanks are plausible (and
>tanks, unlike mecha, do not fall down). Mecha just break my SOD instantly
>and make me want to whap the designer upside the head a with a physics book
>few dozen times.
I strongly dislike magic users. They're infantile power-fantasy (really puny
people who can control the world and everyone around them -- could you get more
blatantly 2-year-old-view-of-adults-ish?), and are totally implausible
scientifically. Technology as magic is plausible. Magic users just break my SOD
instantly and make me want to whap the designer upside the head with a physics
book a few dozen times.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
Michael T. Richter
<199807152054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to the conventional
wisdom, I
>don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an excellent
>game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever
been
>able to duplicate.
Name one.
Red
> Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, I
> don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an excellent
> game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever been
> able to duplicate.
Like what?
mike
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> wrote in article
<Hxmr1.3226$JS1.4...@198.235.216.79>...
> WinningerR wrote in message
> >don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an
excellent
> >game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever
> been
> >able to duplicate.
>
> Name one.
The slavish devotion and/or bitter hatred of hundreds of thousands of
individuals?
Alan D Kohler
<m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>WinningerR wrote in message
><199807152054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to the conventional
>wisdom, I
>>don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an excellent
>>game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever
>been
>>able to duplicate.
>
>Name one.
Exremely easy personal add-ons. Now I love the flexibility of Fantasy
HERO, but I can almost do the same in AD&D sans accounting.
Fantasy flavor -- IMO, games that try to take a more realistic
approach trip themselves in maintaining that fantasy flavor.
OOPS -- that's two right off the top of my head, sorry. Of course,
these are entirely opinion. I can understand perfectly if you find
another game more adaptable or better fantasy flavor, but AFAIAC,
there are truly few games out there that do either of this things as
well as AD&D.
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Alan D Kohler <hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net>
(6/27)- Martial Art rules under C&T, OA style!
- Guild Space setting for the Starfarer *free* SFRPG
http://poky.srv.net/~hwkwnd/homepage.html
Michael T. Richter
>>>don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I
>>>think it's an excellent game system that accomplishes
>>>a lot of things that no other RPG has ever been able
>>>to duplicate.
>>Name one.
>The slavish devotion and/or bitter hatred of hundreds
>of thousands of individuals?
Vampire. 'Nuff said.
Next?
Michael T. Richter
>>>Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to
>>>primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an
>>>excellent game system that accomplishes a lot of
>>>things that no other RPG has ever been able to
>>>duplicate.
>>Name one.
>Exremely easy personal add-ons. Now I love the flexibility of Fantasy
>HERO, but I can almost do the same in AD&D sans accounting.
FUDGE. CORPS. Masterbook.
I've just named three games, without even straining my memory, in which it
is trivial to add extensions to what is provided. FUDGE is intended to be
customized from the ground up (and, indeed, cannot be used without such
customization). CORPS has a very simple core mechanism which is trivially
enhanced by the application of procedures using that mechanism. Further,
its "paranormal powers" section is designed to be easily customized and
enhanced through simple nicks and tucks. Masterbook was, until I got FUDGE,
the system I used when constructing my experimental settings. Mutability
was a core need of that role.
I suspect C&S3, by virtue of its single, coherent (albeit a bit involved)
mechanism would also be easy to modify with user enhancements. I cannot
confirm this, however, because I haven't been playing it enough to have
modifications enter the picture.
In the end, I always found AD&D harder to modify than most other games
precisely because it is a mish-mash of different and vaguely incompatible
mechanisms. Any add-ons or changes I made interacted poorly with other
sub-systems.
>Fantasy flavor -- IMO, games that try to take a more realistic
>approach trip themselves in maintaining that fantasy flavor.
How 'bout the games that don't go for a realistic approach, then? C&S (in
any edition) always maintained a good fantasy feel in the same genre as
(A)D&D, for example. And the third edition is even playable without
requiring incredible dedication. Rolemaster, too, keeps a good, solid
fantasy feel. Elric! is almost a case study in keeping true to the flavour
of its source material.
>OOPS -- that's two right off the top of my head, sorry. Of course,
>these are entirely opinion. I can understand perfectly if you find
>another game more adaptable or better fantasy flavor, but AFAIAC,
>there are truly few games out there that do either of this things as
>well as AD&D.
That's two that aren't unique to AD&D at the very least and one of which I
contest whether AD&D actually qualifies for myself.
t2...@academic.truman.edu
hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net (Alan D Kohler) wrote:
> >>game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever
> >been
> >>able to duplicate.
> >
> >Name one.
>
> Exremely easy personal add-ons. Now I love the flexibility of Fantasy
> HERO, but I can almost do the same in AD&D sans accounting.
Ars Magica does so. I've not had trouble adding anything to it.
> Fantasy flavor -- IMO, games that try to take a more realistic
> approach trip themselves in maintaining that fantasy flavor.
Once again Ars actually has that sort of mysterious "Olde Tyme" feel to it,
and i have adapted it to high fantasy without damaging the setting or the
ruleset.
> OOPS -- that's two right off the top of my head, sorry. Of course,
> these are entirely opinion. I can understand perfectly if you find
> another game more adaptable or better fantasy flavor, but AFAIAC,
> there are truly few games out there that do either of this things as
> well as AD&D.
The only thing i can think of that Distance & Dreamers does better is maintain
sort semblence of game balance which isn't really even given lip service to in
Ars.
Mad Mod
Poet God
> Spam Filter Notice: Remove "REMOVE2REPLY" to reply by email.
> Alan D Kohler <hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net>
> (6/27)- Martial Art rules under C&T, OA style!
> - Guild Space setting for the Starfarer *free* SFRPG
> http://poky.srv.net/~hwkwnd/homepage.html
>
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Michael Hjerppe
>>Brian Wong wrote in message <6og4i4$a4m$1...@news.infinex.com>...
>>Deadlands will likely be gone soon.
>
>Agreed. This was about as niche as it gets. :-)
>
<snipped a bunch of stuff about the bloated FRPG market>
While I agree with much of what you two said, I don't understand why
you feel that Deadlands will fail. It's been around two years now and
is going stronger than ever at the moment. Pinnacle is putting out
tons of support material (I can barely keep up with it all), the game
itself is in the top five of industry best-sellers, it has branched
out into both a miniatures and CCG game (which should, hopefully,
bring new players into the rpg), and the folks at Pinnacle seem to
know what they're doing business-wise. To me it seems like that there
is good reason to think that Deadlands could continue to be
successful. I'm curious to hear why you two think it will fail.
--Mike
Brett Slocum
>>On rereading this, I'd like to apologize for the snide tone. I should have just
>>passed this off as regional differences.
>
>Incidentally, I also have not a clue about what my name is doing in the
>attributions above. I didn't write any of the above stuff, and I know
>full well that Palladium has a fantasy RPG -- I once played a campaign
>of it, and I used to write for the company.
You were in the thread, adding fantasy games to my list. I just neglected to
trim the quoted 'From' lines as well as I trimmed quoted text.
Viktor Haag
>
> Turtle wrote in message <6oio2m$49q$1...@newsfeed.easynews.net>...
> >There is no fantasy rpg out there that has the scope of AD&D.
>
> <boggle!>
>
> What?!?!?!
>
> In what way does AD&D have more scope than, say, Chivalry & Sorcery or
> Rolemaster (to name two generic fantasy games off the top of my head)? In
> what way does it offer more scope than CORPS, GURPS and Hero (to name three
> generic games off the top of my head)?
>
> >The game universe should be the main attraction of a frpg,
>
> And since AD&D has no game universe, your initial point is blown.
<boggle!>
What?!?!?!?!
PlaneScape, GreyHawk, Forgotten Realms, DragonLance, SpellJammer, Domains of
Dread, Dark Sun, Al Qadim ...
I'm sorry, I thought these were game universes. Perhaps they're anchovies
instead. My mistake.
I do tend to agree with your point about character classes. But character
classes are a very good model for the kinds of roles that the game designers
wanted players to fill during games, no? After all, AD&D isn't mean to mimic
reality -- it's a game, and part of the parameters is the character classes.
Playing AD&D without the character classes would be kind of like playing
Monopoly with a live fish as your game token to add that touch of 'realism'. You
could do it, but what would the point be...
--
Viktor Haag The PEER Group, Inc.
mailto:vik...@peergroup.com Technical Writer
"Unlike serial-killer profiling, writing is a
lonely and depressing profession ..." Jose Chung
Viktor Haag
> The very fact that it takes work to make AD&D do a lot of interesting
> settings is probably an asset when it comes to actual play.
Oh please Bruce! I hope you had a bemused grin on your face when you wrote
this....
Viktor Haag
> Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, I
> don't think AD&D is primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an excellent
> game system that accomplishes a lot of things that no other RPG has ever been
> able to duplicate.
I agree. It's terribly cool to bash xD&D, but that didn't stop TSR from putting
out a good solid *game* with lots of exciting and detailed support material with
high production values for years.
The interesting thing right now is Alternity. As a *game*, it has a lot of the
same interesting qualities as xD&D has. Already it's become cool to slag it on
usenet.
I wonder whether WoTC/TSR will finally get a SciFi success with Alternity. It
certainly has some of the hallmarks of filling those shoes, in my opinion.
I wonder, Ray -- how do you rate your own work on UnderGround in this context?
My own opinion of UnderGround was that the background showed a lot of
interesting depth and texture, but that it wouldn't make a very good game (for
various reasons). In hindsight, what kinds of pros and cons do you think
UnderGround showed, purely from a "game criticism" point of view?
Allan Seyberth
)>Deadlands will likely be gone soon.
)
)Agreed. This was about as niche as it gets. :-)
No was about it. It's still alive and kicking. And according to the company
it is currently the 5th most popular selling game out today.
The DL listserv handles about 100-200 messages a day with probably over a 50%
signal to noise ratio.
Just a couple of observations from a rabid fan-boy.
WinningerR
>The interesting thing right now is Alternity. As a *game*, it has a lot of
>the
>same interesting qualities as xD&D has. Already it's become cool to slag it
>on
>usenet.
For my own comments on ALTERNITY, see my lengthy feature review to be published
in DRAGON #250.
>In hindsight, what kinds of pros and cons do you think
>UnderGround showed, purely from a "game criticism" point of view?
Hmm. That's a good question. I think UNDERGROUND's biggest problem was that the
core rulebook was too small. I think there was lots of "depth and texture"
(well put), but not enough advice on how to actually set up and operate a
campaign in the setting. The two fairly "revolutionary" concepts that I was
trying to play up in UNDERGROUND (strong character advancement akin to AD&D and
the Parameter rules) are great concepts, I think, though neither got the space
it needed for a full description. Maybe someday I'll get a chance to fix all
that.
Thanks, R.
Bruce Baugh
>> The very fact that it takes work to make AD&D do a lot of interesting
>> settings is probably an asset when it comes to actual play.
>Oh please Bruce! I hope you had a bemused grin on your face when you wrote
>this....
I really don't. I have seriously been thinkign for some time about
what factors besides just "got there first" keep relatively bad games
so successful. I may be wrong about the specific issues of complex
trivia to master and the need for customization, but if it's not them,
then it's something like them.
Note that I'm _not_ talking here about good design, but about what
people actually want as expressed in what they buy and play, as
opposed to what they say they want.
--
http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/
Rolegaming, writing tools, miscellany
The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and
high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on
the contrary, it increases the desire to walk. -- Massimo d'Azeglio
Katt Freyson
> character classes are a very good model for the kinds of roles
> that the game designers wanted players to fill during games, no?
> After all, AD&D isn't mean to mimic reality -- it's a game, and
> part of the parameters is the character classes. Playing AD&D
> without the character classes would be kind of like playing
> Monopoly with a live fish as your game token to add that touch
> of 'realism'. You could do it, but what would the point be...
Character classes are parameters that the game designers
wanted, no kidding, but the point is that some of us think that this
is an unwanted parameter. You understand the point? I am not
debating whether or nor character classes reflect what the designers
wanted, of course they do, but that character classes model
something that _I_ don't want in a game. Ergo, for me, games based
on character classes as limited as AD&D do are not games I want to
play or run. CP2020 uses characer classes, but they are more free
form than AD&D's, but even that I prefer not to play. Give me games
where they suggest concepts and professions, but allow the players
to make characters that are free form, buying skills and other
abilities as they wish.
Katt
woodelf
(Disturbance) wrote:
> Serial killers and spree killers are well-documented phenomena in our
> world. Account for the success of "Scream" and "Scream 2".
define "success." if you're referring to large box-office receipts, they
don't have any bearing on the quality of the film, IMHO. and, having seen
Scream, it *didn't* "succeed" as horror. it was pretty good suspense, but
that's it. horror, IMHO, scares me. a suspense film at best
startles/surprises me, and more often merely keeps me guessing. my
standard test is "is it as good the 2nd time?" Alien is just as good of a
film, IMHO, on the 6th watching (or however many times i've seen it--may
be more). i wouldn't be interested in seeing Scream again, now that i
know the ending. so Alien is horror, Scream is suspense. [well, i might
want to see a suspense film multiple times for othe rreasons. but it
wouldn't be because the suspense worked the second time around.]
> Just because you know about something doesn't make it any less
> terrifying. In fact, it may make it more so, because you =understand=
> just how nasty the thing is that's coming after you.
yes it does. IMHO, the unknown is the only thing that is scary. you may
know what it feels like to be slashed by a mugger (due to previous bad
luck), but that is not what scares you. what scares you is not knowing
for certain when (or if) it might happen again. likewise, death scares
many people because they don't know what it really is. the religiously
devout, who sincerely believe in an afterlife are often much less scared
of death. i may want to avoid something that is undesirable (wiping out
on my bike) due to its nastiness, but that doesn't make me afraid of it.
woodelf <*>
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf
I was told by the people running that way that I could find the
Technomages here. --Vir Koto
Sidhain
>Well there is enough info in JC so you can design all your own mechs and
>weapons for them in Jovian Chronicles.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Bill
>
>***************************************************************************
>The main problem with my job is that they expect me to actually work.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
>******************************************************************
Nope no organic mecha tech, no psi lenses No etc...
its a good system but is aimed at one setting with limited variance in the
setting....Mekton is not..
Alan D Kohler
<m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>Alan D Kohler wrote in message <35ae1308...@news.srv.net>...
>>>>Your comments are an excellent example. Contrary to
>>>>the conventional wisdom, I don't think AD&D is
>>>>primitive or outmoded at all. I think it's an
>>>>excellent game system that accomplishes a lot of
>>>>things that no other RPG has ever been able to
>>>>duplicate.
>
>>>Name one.
>
>>Exremely easy personal add-ons. Now I love the flexibility of Fantasy
>>HERO, but I can almost do the same in AD&D sans accounting.
>
>FUDGE. CORPS. Masterbook.
>
>I've just named three games, without even straining my memory, in which it
>is trivial to add extensions to what is provided.
Well, I'm a big fan of FUDGE and CORPS too. And I might agree with you
if you weren't starting from ground zero. But you are. To "add" to the
level of AD&D requires that you were at the level in the first
place... which would be a whole lot of time re-inventing the real.
No, to simulate my game in another system is an extrememly non-trivial
task outside of AD&D and perhaps FH. The systems you named just lack
to much in the way of base material.
>>Fantasy flavor -- IMO, games that try to take a more realistic
>>approach trip themselves in maintaining that fantasy flavor.
>
>How 'bout the games that don't go for a realistic approach, then? C&S (in
>any edition) always maintained a good fantasy feel in the same genre as
>(A)D&D, for example. And the third edition is even playable without
>requiring incredible dedication.
Haven't looked at recent ediitions, so I'll not attempt to comment on
them. The old C&S that I am familiar with took way to long to resolve
combat.
> Rolemaster, too, keeps a good, solid
>fantasy feel.
Again, a game that I do not dislike intensely, but IMO dwelled too
much on detail to really flow. (C'mon - teeth healing?)
>Elric! is almost a case study in keeping true to the flavour
>of its source material.
>
Which would be perfectly fine if it was my goal to emulate Moorcock.
But you'll note that emulation of existing literary works was not my
stated digression. It was doing what *I* want to do that I am
concerned with.
>>OOPS -- that's two right off the top of my head, sorry. Of course,
>>these are entirely opinion. I can understand perfectly if you find
>>another game more adaptable or better fantasy flavor, but AFAIAC,
>>there are truly few games out there that do either of this things as
>>well as AD&D.
>
>That's two that aren't unique to AD&D at the very least and one of which I
>contest whether AD&D actually qualifies for myself.
Again, IYO. IMO, none of the ones you named cuts the mustard for me.
Michael T. Richter
>While I agree with much of what you two said, I don't understand why
>you feel that Deadlands will fail. It's been around two years now and
>is going stronger than ever at the moment. Pinnacle is putting out
>tons of support material (I can barely keep up with it all), the game
>itself is in the top five of industry best-sellers, it has branched
>out into both a miniatures and CCG game (which should, hopefully,
>bring new players into the rpg), and the folks at Pinnacle seem to
>know what they're doing business-wise. To me it seems like that there
>is good reason to think that Deadlands could continue to be
>successful. I'm curious to hear why you two think it will fail.
Every so often a fad hits the gaming industry. Cyberpunk (the genre, not
the game) was one such fad, for example. CCGs are another. When these fads
comes out, the genre seems very viable and popular and the companies who
initially jump on it do well for a while.
Eventually, however, the novelty wears off. Gamers look elsewhere for their
cheap and vicarious thrills :-) and the bottom falls out of the fad.
Sometimes the fad leaves behind one or two companies who continue to survive
(but whose halcyon days are faded memories). Sometimes the fad leaves no
survivors.
Deadlands looks to me exactly like such a fad. I can't quite put my finger
on why, but I have this deep suspicion that its appeal won't last. If
Pinnacle plays their cards right they'll easily survive the (IMO) inevitable
crash by publishing another quirky, entertaining, imagination-catching game.
But Deadlands itself will likely not live to the end of the millenium.
Another area that has many of the hallmarks of such a fad is the whole area
of anime-based role-playing. We have Big Eyes Small Mouth, Tinker's Damn,
Votoms, Bubblegum Crisis and Project A-ko as direct anime-based games. We
have Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles as anime-influenced games. And we
have Teenagers From Outer Space being reinvented as an anime game. (That
last item is what sets off my fad alarms most.) I suspect that within about
three years anime as a genre will die off except for one (maybe two)
companies who continue to produce product, albeit at a much-reduced rate.
Michael T. Richter
>>>The game universe should be the main attraction of a frpg,
>> And since AD&D has no game universe, your initial point is blown.
><boggle!>
>What?!?!?!?!
>PlaneScape, GreyHawk, Forgotten Realms, DragonLance, SpellJammer, Domains
of
>Dread, Dark Sun, Al Qadim ...
These are add-ons to AD&D. AD&D wasn't written with any of these in mind.
There is no particular reason why any of these would have to be
AD&D-specific.
One of the Grand Mantras chanted by the pro-AD&D crowd is that it is somehow
"generic" -- that it isn't setting-specific. (They're wrong, of course, but
that's a different story.)
Patrick O'Duffy
> whether or not the characters are isolated. Sure, you COULD take
> Earthdawn characters and stick them into a haunted-house situation,
> but that's not the default state of the game. The default state is
> that basically everybody believes in horros and knows they can do
> VERY bad things to people -- in other words, there is no room for
> emotional or social isolation in Earthdawn, and _physical_ isolation
> can be accomplished in ANY system.
Well, what if the character facing the Horror _can't_ count on support from
other people? For instance, if a person is possessed by a Despairthought, they
can't communicate effectively (they can't speak), and the possession can only be
'cured' by the death of the Horror or the person. Odds are that even if the
possessed person _could_ communicate their problem, they'd be put to death as a
danger to those around them.
Horror can depend on isolation (physical, social, emotional), or on other
things (violation, helplessness, ignorance), and Earthdawn seems to be able to
supply most (if perhaps not all) of these things.
I've only run 4 sessions so far, and haven't aimed for a 'horror' tone yet,
but it doesn't look like I'll have any problems doing so...
--
Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia
Life's a piece of shit, woo woo woo
Open a vein and slit, woo woo woo
TISM, "Bishop Handjob"