RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 02 Oct 1994, part 1
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6429: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Orlanthi Yelm
6430: langham = (Bernard Langham)
- Temple of Black Arkat
6431: T.J.Minas = (T.J.Minas)
- Styx Water and Truestones
6432: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Storm Bull Sites
6433: scotty = (Scott Haney)
- Burns Supper
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Orlanthi Yelm
Message-ID: <941001084535_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 1 Oct 94 08:45:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6429
Joerg & Sandy:
JB>> Well, the Orlanthi say that Yelm was meant to be a guardian only,
JB>> too, but that he usurped a sovereignty not his to take, and that
JB>> this caused the world to be almost destroyed.
SP> In the first place, I think this is an inaccurate portrayal of the
SP> Orlanthi POV.
It's an outgrowth of Joerg's own Aeolian theories. I think he'd agree it's
not the *normal* Orlanthi POV, but I'm unsure if he's trying to pull a fast
one by mentioning it here. It's possible Joerg has just forgotten where it
came from: it can happen to us creative types.
SP> Chaos Wastes (named for what _caused_ it, not for what lives in it,
SP> by the way)
I thought it was a description: "Chaos Wastes", like "Orlanth Wrecks". ;-)
____
MOB:
> David Hall and Nick Brooke have been trying to convince me of late that
> Vega is in fact, really a *Light Son*
Tee hee! Frivolously, I assure you...
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: lan...@cougar.multiline.com.au (Bernard Langham)
Subject: Temple of Black Arkat
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410012...@cougar.multiline.com.au>
Date: 1 Oct 94 20:49:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6430
The following deals (to my satisfaction anyway) with several thorny
questions surrounding the Temple of Black Arkat. In particular, it
explains (1) why the Temple appears on no map and (2) why it has no Troll
members.
The Temple of Black Arkat is not a place, but a Society of human Sorcerors
dedicated to the extirpation of Chaos through wholesale adoption of the
Way of Darkness as revealed to humanity by Arkat Kingtroll. The Black
Templars are excessively trollophile: they admire Troll culture, adopt
Troll dress and ape Troll customs. The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp
34-35) is their supreme sacrement. Initiation into Troll cults is highly
prized. Most choose Argan Argar, since humans may join without being
transformed (painfully) into Trolls. Other, more zealous Templars may join
Kyger Litor the Angel of Darkness or Zorak Arkat the Black Angel of Death,
divesting themselves of their humanity the better to fight brute Chaos. A
few become obsessed with the inner secrets of Darkness and join the cult
of Subere. Their mission is to keep the Chaos Nest in Larnste's Footprint
from seeping through the Stonewood into the surrounding countryside. The
Black Arkati go out of their way to use extreme, Trollish methods when
fighting Chaos, and some of their more famous attrocities would give a
Zorak Zorani Death Lord pause. Their extensive use of the sorcery spell
Animate Dead to fight Chaos makes them very unpopular with Humakti. Trolls
view this Uz-wanna-be society with secret amusement, but respect its
anti-Chaos zeal. Obviously, no _real_ Uz would dream of becoming a member.
NB: reference to Angels above stems from my conviction that the Kitori
are Henotheists -- and hence capable of living side by side w/ trolls
whose Orlanth-unfriendly gods are conveniently incorporated into the
rubric of Malkionism as dutiful servants of the Invisible God.
Later,
~Barney
--
Bernard Langham . lan...@cougar.multiline.com.au . Perth, Western Australia
---------------------
From: T.J....@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: Styx Water and Truestones
Message-ID: <1994100113...@willow.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 1 Oct 94 15:58:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6431
Hello all again. a thought which wandered past my consciousness
when I was walking home recently deserves wider publicity, so I
present it here.
If truestones can hold ANYTHING (INT, POW, skills, etc)
presumbably it can hold all of your memories, skills, etc, in
short, you, your entire "essence", as it were. So, go to the Styx,
bung all your memories etc into a Truestone, get yourself totally
inundated into the Styx, gaining all the requisite abilities etc.
As you are a mindless newborn equivalent when you do this (all
your skills etc being in the Truestone) it doesn't make you forget
anything. All you have to do now is to get all your memories,
spells, skills etc back from the Truestone! Some chunky
ritual/heroquest could probably do this for you. What do people
think? The perfect way to get the Styx powers when an adult.
Enough for now
Tim Minas
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Storm Bull Sites
Message-ID: <941001154237_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 1 Oct 94 15:42:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6432
_____
Alex:
What does "Urox" say to you that "Storm Bull" doesn't, you lanky Scots git?
> Nick's doubleplusungoodwise-phrased point is obviously Correct for
> extreme cases like Ralios, at least. But what about, say, Sartar?
Obviously Sartar, being within spitting distance of the Block and regularly
raided by Praxian types, is almost certainly within Storm-Bull-as-described
territory. You'd get some local myths (like "How Orlanth Tamed Storm Bull")
unlikely to be known or told in Prax, but the Big Myth of the Block could
stay the same. In Ralios, that Big Mythical Event was so far away, under a
lump of Truestone that nobody's seen or heard of, that Ralian worshippers
of the Storm Bull almost certainly have another and different story for how
their god defeated the Devil. Otherwise it'd be like having a Hindu myth of
the Terrible Evil Thing under Ayer's Rock... (OK, distance and parallel
have been fudged to increase the ease of grasping what I'm on about).
If Ralios is "an extreme case", what on earth are Fronelan Storm Bulls
going to be like?
> Storm Walk mountain ... with a different spin
What, counterclockwise? Talk about doubleplusungoodwise phrasing! Also, I'm
not sure whether that's primarily a Praxian or a Holy Country story -- as
it's not mentioned in Nomad Gods but was developed for MoLaD, I'd suspect
the latter.
_____________
Colin Watson:
> Nope, the closest a Shaman gets to resurrection is Create Zombie; and
> that does the spirit more harm than good.
This should not be so. For whatever strange reason, the authors of RQ3's
Spirit Magic chapter chose to leave out almost all the weird and wonderful
things shamans can do; possibly intending to print them "next year" in
HeroQuest. Shamans, like Wizards, can certainly resurrect through hefty
ceremonies. They can also visit gods to intercede with them directly: more
random and dangerous than Priestly access to divine power, but possible.
The game mechanics for Shamans are a blind to hide what they can in fact
do: a "ShamanPak" or long discursive essay by One Who Knows would be a very
handy thing to have. "Very Hard" sounds about right to me; but there's
plenty of us who'd like the Rune Magic Resurrect spells to be made that
difficult as well.
________
Peter W: (Vega/Invictus)
> Oh joy! What a scandal. I sniff a scenario in this.
Ho ho ho. Though given my views on Sun Dome sexuality, perhaps it's less of
a problem than it looks... <g>
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: sco...@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney)
Subject: Burns Supper
Message-ID: <1f8106a1.8...@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us>
Date: 1 Oct 94 16:19:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6433
&
& Bashed neeps are neat turnip, alas, though mashed potatoes are traditionally
& served too. I should also mention the other, absolutely _key_ ingredient
& of a successful Burns' Supper: get too pissed to notice how appalling the
& food is.
Yeah, well, you have to be very careful with that...I tried it, and I wound
up proposing marriage later that evening!
Another topic: does anyone have stats for alynxes that they can send
me? I lost some stuff when I moved to my new house.
Scott (married one week as of today)
---------------------
X-RQ-ID: Extro
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RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6434: 100326.446 = (Hugh Foster)
- Theory about the GL secret
6435: 100326.446 = (Hugh Foster)
- Truestone & the Styx
6436: 100326.446 = (Hugh Foster)
- Archives available to CompuServe Barbarians ?
6437: Greybeard = (Troll)
- RQA
6438: scotty = (Scott Haney)
- Styx Water and Truestones
6439: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 01 Oct 1994, part 1
6440: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Sartarite beasties
6441: drcheng = (David Cheng)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 02 Oct 1994, part 1
6442: 100102.3001 = (Peter J. Whitelaw)
- Sun County Pillow Talk.
6443: paul = (Paul Reilly)
- Re: Storm Bulls
6444: guy.hoyle = guy....@chrysalis.org
- RUNEQUEST DAI
6445: klaus = kl...@diku.dk
- Grotto of Pocharngo
---------------------
From: 10032...@compuserve.com (Hugh Foster)
Subject: Theory about the GL secret
Message-ID: <941002110559_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 94 11:05:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6434
>>theory about the GL secret<<
Most of my games are _run_ that way! Quite often the players' paranoia comes up
with better pay-offs than my advance planning...
---------------------
From: 10032...@compuserve.com (Hugh Foster)
Subject: Truestone & the Styx
Message-ID: <941002110553_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 94 11:05:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6435
Problem I can see is that as you emerge you see a pile of clothes and a chunk of
rock nearby. "I wonder what that was for" you think as you wander away...
But then I'm a sadistic GM.
---------------------
From: 10032...@compuserve.com (Hugh Foster)
Subject: Archives available to CompuServe Barbarians ?
Message-ID: <941002110557_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 94 11:05:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6436
Hello folks! I've just managed to get connected to the List, and I'm wondering
about archives. I got some disks sent me a while back after seeing an ad in TRM,
which take me to Volume 8 (looks like the numbering system's changed!) Is there
a way I can get archives, bearing in mind I'm a humble CompuServe user and can't
get to archive servers ? Thanks in advance...
Hugh Foster,
aka The War Dog.
---------------------
From: Grey...@nochet.demon.co.uk (Troll)
Subject: RQA
Message-ID: <6...@nochet.demon.co.uk>
Date: 2 Oct 94 15:40:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6437
If any of you have not yet got the excellent RuneQuest Adventures
by John Castellucci then you will be pleased to know that a massive
reprint of all 3 issues has just been shipped to distributors in the UK
for sale to retail outlets.
This European reprint has been the joint effort of the German, Scandinavian
and UK agents.
If you wish to buy one of the thirty copies of each issue I kept in my cupboard
then please email me for details.
--
Troll
---------------------
From: sco...@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney)
Subject: Styx Water and Truestones
Message-ID: <1f8243c8.6...@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us>
Date: 2 Oct 94 14:52:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6438
& If truestones can hold ANYTHING (INT, POW, skills, etc)
& presumbably it can hold all of your memories, skills, etc, in
& short, you, your entire "essence", as it were. So, go to the Styx,
& bung all your memories etc into a Truestone, get yourself totally
& inundated into the Styx, gaining all the requisite abilities etc.
& As you are a mindless newborn equivalent when you do this (all
& your skills etc being in the Truestone) it doesn't make you forget
& anything. All you have to do now is to get all your memories,
& spells, skills etc back from the Truestone! Some chunky
& ritual/heroquest could probably do this for you. What do people
& think? The perfect way to get the Styx powers when an adult.
&
Uh...once your memory is in the stone, wouldn't you then forget
to jump in the Styx? And forget to pick up your stone again
after? Newborns aren't too clever....
scotty
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 01 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 2 Oct 94 18:20:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6439
In-Reply-To: <941001081...@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
> David Cheng, and some other chaps, post(s) various semi-convincing
> reasonsfor posting the daily to a newsgroup:
> [...]
>
> But none for posting to _that_ newsgroup. I don't understand the
> Technologically challenged people who download whole newsgroups onto
> theirlocal machine, and then indulge in post hoc bitching about getting
> stuffthey didn't want, any more than I do those people who
> reallyreallyreallywant RQ by news, but in the spirit of humouring all
> factions, why notcross-post to a RQ and/or Daily-specific newsgroup?
> There should be nocreation problems, since we can either a) create an
> alt group, or b)stitch up the creation vote in advance by soliciting the
> necessary supporthere in advance.
Having started this thread up I withdraw the suggestion to get the RQ
Daily off usenet - it was more a question of 'has it been thought about'
than 'it must be done.'
I have trouble Alex because I don't get to use my work account for these
postings but have to buy my own eqipment, time etc, and o use an OLR. The
OLR doesn't support killfiles, which is a pain in the backside.
I hearby move that we apoint Alex as 'getting rec.games.frp.RQ or at the
very least alt.fan.runequest set up rep.' Anyone know how to do such a
thing?
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Sartarite beasties
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 2 Oct 94 18:20:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6440
In-Reply-To: <941001081...@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
> Can anyone tell me some examples of normal fauna found in Sartar?
>
> Examples I am mostly looking for are hunted animals and herd beasts. How
> muchmigration from Prax (if any) is there? Does one find Alticamelus
> herds orBison herds wandering around Sartar?
Well I always assumed that cows and shep predominate, with some pigs as
well. There won't be lost Praxian herds because lost praxian herds alwats
come with lost praxian invaders and we throw that sort of person out of
our lands thank you very much.
In the woods there will be those creatures that one expects to find in
woods - deer, boars etc etc. Very few if any wild goats and certainly no
tame ones. Probably one or two pheasant as well.
---------------------
From: drc...@stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 02 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.2.781...@sales.stern.nyu.edu>
Date: 2 Oct 94 18:55:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6441
| From: T.J....@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
| Subject: Styx Water and Truestones
| X-RQ-ID: 6431
| If truestones can hold ANYTHING (INT, POW, skills, etc)
| presumbably it can hold all of your memories, skills, etc, in
| short, you, your entire "essence", as it were. So, go to the Styx,
| bung all your memories etc into a Truestone, get yourself totally
| inundated into the Styx, gaining all the requisite abilities etc.
| As you are a mindless newborn equivalent when you do this (all
| your skills etc being in the Truestone) it doesn't make you forget
| anything. All you have to do now is to get all your memories,
| spells, skills etc back from the Truestone! Some chunky
| ritual/heroquest could probably do this for you. What do people
| think? The perfect way to get the Styx powers when an adult.
If it were this easy, I suspect lots of folks would have done it by
now.
At least think about all the spirits lurking around in Hell, who would
love the opportunity to take a fresh, vital body without a fight.
-DC
---------------------
From: 10010...@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Sun County Pillow Talk.
Message-ID: <941002200259_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 94 20:03:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6442
Hi all,
Nick responds to my post:
>Peter W: (Vega/Invictus)
>
>> Oh joy! What a scandal. I sniff a scenario in this.
>
>Ho ho ho. Though given my views on Sun Dome sexuality, perhaps it's less of
>a problem than it looks... <g>
Ah. May I presume that you include on the Yelmalio Geas table, in deference to
certain Greek practices:
'Thou shalt not chase Junior Sun Dome Templars around the Yard' <bg>
All the best,
Peter
---------------------
From: pa...@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Storm Bulls
Message-ID: <941002212...@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Oct 94 21:28:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6443
Paul Reilly here.
Nick writes:
>If Ralios is "an extreme case", what on earth are Fronelan Storm Bulls
>going to be like?
We in fact did play with Fronelan Storm Bulls. They had never heard of
The Block. When their leader did hear about it (from a ship captain from
the Holy Country) they decided to go on a pilgrimage. They thought that
Storm Bull himself was at the Block. Only when they got to Sartar did
they realize that the Eternal Battle and The Block were not right next to
each other. Now they have gone to the Eternal Battle.
The pilgrimage leader was worried that if people kept taking pieces off
The Block that the Devil would get out. So everywhere the pilgrimage went
they picked up all the Truestone they could, hoping to stick it back onto
The Block. They got a few sackfuls of non-blank Truestone that noone knew
how to recharge. This eventually came in handy as ammunition...
---------------------
From: guy....@chrysalis.org
Subject: RUNEQUEST DAI
Message-ID: <941003013...@chrysalis.org>
Date: 3 Oct 94 00:31:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6444
Just in case anybody's interested, Sandy's got some GREAT ideas about
Kralorelan magic (NOT sorcery), and also about the East Isles. We're
currently in Kralorela in his campaign, and he's tantalized us with
tidbits. Pester him so's he'll post it here.
Sandy, is the magic in Pamaltela different too? (We might go there
too.)
Guy
aka Fido Two-Big-Clubs (DON'T DRINK THE WHITE STUFF!)
* RM
---------------------
From: kl...@diku.dk
Subject: Grotto of Pocharngo
Message-ID: <1994100307...@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 3 Oct 94 09:48:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6445
My RQ group will soon be visiting the grotto of Pocharngo
(if they manage to find it.) As far as I can see from
the scenario describtion, once they are in, they are dead.
One "exit" can only be opened from the outside, the other
requires an undine. These are begining characters, they
don't have any undines. They could get one from the ZF
cult, but if they don't think of that, they are dead, right?
Klaus O K
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6446: davidc = (David Cake)
- Exigers
6447: lipscomb = lips...@vax.ox.ac.uk
- Non-CA resurrection
6448: wpgaudin = wpga...@awe.gov.uk
- Re: Gark, Scenarios & Questions.
6449: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- Orlanth=Pamalt
6450: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- The not-so-good Demiverge of Rhigos
6451: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- The inherent goodness of swamps...
6453: dave_cordes = (Dave Cordes)
- Shaman and Sorcery Resurrec
6454: DevinC = Dev...@aol.com
- Re: Beasties, Grotto of Pocharngo
6455: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Pocharngo's Grotto; Whinge About Geases
6456: garydj = gar...@ditard.dit.gov.au
- Battle of Moonbroth
6458: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Kitori
6459: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Doraddi vs. Oralnthi
6460: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Black Arkat
6461: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Arkati and Illumination.
6462: raphael = (Andrew Raphael)
- Light Sons in Drag
6463: guy.hoyle = guy....@chrysalis.org
- RUNEQUEST DAI
6464: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- A load of Bull, etc.
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Exigers
Message-ID: <1994100311...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:17:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6446
The Exigers sound a bit like a less extreme version of the Kingdom
of War (minus the unifying leader).
In TOTRM #11, the Exigers are described as having mastered many
unusual fighting arts. I got the impression that the various tribes within
the Exigers each had different specialist techniques. Is this correct? If
so, what are some examples of the special techniques?
To differentiate them from the KOW, I like the idea that they do
not have religious differences, but more straight political rivalry, with
frequent deadly personal vendettas.
---------------------
From: lips...@vax.ox.ac.uk
Subject: Non-CA resurrection
Message-ID: <0098565A.1...@vax.ox.ac.uk>
Date: 3 Oct 94 16:15:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6447
Gerak Kag (no real name given) asks about resurrection in cultures that do not
worship Chalana Arroy.
Firstly, CA appears in Orlanth and Yelm pantheons, so any culture worshipping
these pantheons will have access to resurrect (Yelm also has the spell, I'm not
sure what other gods do). This includes all Theyalans, Pent, Dara Happa and
Kralorela. For the remaining cultures, I propose that they don't consider
resurrection to be a Good Thing. I'll skim through the other cultures that Ican
think of (Genertela only), starting with the Elder Races, seeing as GK singles
out non-humans. This is all IMO, of course.
Elves consider death to be part of the natural cycle of life - to die and give
your nutrients to the soil is just as important as to live.
Dwarves, of course, don't die. If they do, then they were obviously broken
anyway.
Trolls: Its less obvious on the troll view of death. In GoG it says that death
is a way to reach the ancestral homeland (the Underworld) and so could be
considered a Good Thing. Trollish society also employs expendable members
(trollkin, males etc.) for the physically dangerous stuff and so important
members are less likely to be lost.
For dragonewts of course the question is meaningless. Other lesser races seem
to follow human religions (such as ducks) or shamanic paths (baboons).
Western: I think the Malkioni would consider resurrection to be heretical as it
prevents the soul from reaching Solace, and is against the will of the
Invisible God.
Prax: The Praxian attitude to the souls of their animals indicates they have a
strong reincarnation belief. They may have similar attitudes to the elves -
death is as important as life and it is Wrong to interfere.
Kralorela: Although they have some elements of Yelmic belief, I feel the
Kralorelans are strongly influenced by dragonewt philosophy and so believe in
reincarnation, into a higher state if they live a worthy life. Thus it would be
wrong to resurrect someone as it would keep them in a lower position.
Lunars: The Lunar Empire covers a variety of beliefs. The Dara Happan heartland
is Yelmic and so resurrection is available. I presume Deezola has resurrection
capabilities, and Chalana Arroy has probably been imported from Theyalan
regions too.
Shamanic: For cultures involving ancestor worship I feel the concept of
resurrection doesn't make sense, as the dead are still around and can be
consulted whenever necessary.
The attitude I have taken here is that resurrection is mainly used to bring
back someone who has met an untimely end and who is a valued member of society.
(Of course, pious Chalana Arroyans would say that _everyone_ is a valued member
of society). Where death is viewed as a final and ultimate end, where the
personality does not survive, resurrection would be more readily sought
(witness the Brithini attitude to death - one of fear and loathing). In
societies where the dead will be back, maybe in another form, but they will be
back, resurrection will be seen to interfere with this and thus be wrong.
The prime users of resurrection must be the Theyalans, and I see their attitude
as a kind of "I'm not going to let a little thing like death stop me from
giving the Lunars a good kicking", or of course "Your friend is only _mostly_
dead".
Simon Lipscomb
---------------------
From: wpga...@awe.gov.uk
Subject: Re: Gark, Scenarios & Questions.
Message-ID: <9410031636.AA10978@_awe.gov.uk>
Date: 3 Oct 94 16:36:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6448
Whoever asked about Gark I still have the desciption on disc from when it
appeared in the digest some years ago. It also has an attached scenario.
Being a newcomer to the group you had better tell me whether I should mail
it as it is quite large.
I would also like to post various scenarios I have written. I was writing them
up hoping to submit them to Avalon but after hearing how difficult and
infuriating it is to get anything published I thought "What the hell" I may as
well just distribute them for free. However I am assuming this a forum for
such submissions. Again, they are quite large files so maybe it would be
better to mail them to individuals direct. You tell me. There is also the
matter of maps. I could uuencode the graphics to reduce the size or simply
use an ASCII format. What formats can most people read, Gif,Tiff,Postscipt etc.
Wayne Gaudin
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Orlanth=Pamalt
Message-ID: <01HHUSG1E...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 4 Oct 94 10:54:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6449
Joerg
=====
[Arguing about Orlanth]
SP> You think that the Earth
SP> Goddess priestesses don't think of him as a relative? You think they
SP> don't have special calls on his prowess not available to anyone else?
JB>I think they do. I'm just not certain how these look like. To expand on
JB>Davd Dunham's Land Goddess summary, the Orlanth Rex cult seems to have
JB>filled part of these functions in a form acceptable to the male
JB>dominated Orlanthi.
This puzzles me. I have seen the Orlanth Rex subcult in the Orlanth
writeup in Heroes and for some reason it was dropped from River of
Cradles. For the record to enter the subcult you have to be a thane
or a king and the spells it teaches are Command Priest, Detect Honour
and Command Worshippers. To me Orlanth Rex seems to the mythical basis
for the Tribe in the Orlanthi PoV and not a missing link for
As O. Rex was invented by Alakoring Dragonslayer, this raises the
question of how the Orlanthi organized themselves into SupraClan
organizations before. My guess is that they were controlled by the
Temples who dealt in interclan matters. My parallel for this is
Druidism rather than the Ziggurat States of Sumer.
>However, this opens another question I've been harbouring for some
>time: How is the native Pamaltelan divine magic different from the
>Genertelan? Cults of Terror calls the native Pamaltelan philosophy
>Naturalist, similar to the Hsunchen.
Joerg knows of my view in that they did pratice a distinct form of
Rune Magic before the advent of the six legged empire. The strength
of this magic (I wouldn't detail the mechanics here cause IMO it's
v. rare) was that the spells could only be cast communally in mass
dances (ie like war dances before battles), as opposed to calling
upon the god at a snap of the fingers (ie conventional divine magic).
When the six legged empire defeated these tribes with their theism,
the doraddi were forced into the Hinterlands. Eventually the tribes
switched from their communal dance (divine) magic to conventional
theism, for the simple fact that it is more effective with small groups.
The real sting in the tale is this. The doraddi social structure
is based around the community, but this is based on a communal magic
which was rendered obslete by the advent of the six legged Empire: ie,
the magical power of the chief required in the old days cooperation
of his subjects, which does not occur in conventional divine magic.
IMO there is a potential for a tryant to arise as did RW Shaka and
enforce his will on the tribe. Think of the Orlanthi flaw of
Lokaymadonism and apply it to the Arbennan confederation...
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The not-so-good Demiverge of Rhigos
Message-ID: <01HHUSEQH...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 4 Oct 94 10:54:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6450
MOB
---
I wrote something five days ago about porthomeka, but the post got eaten
by a krashtkid. It was about Rhigos and one of MOB's contributions (which
for modesty? MOB didn't mention in the current thread) was the factoids
about the Wild parties (and worse) of the Demiverge of Rhigos.
I am quite prepared to synthesize this with Crim's suggestion that the
Porthomekans are Westerners by saying that the Demiverge really only
rules an enclave within Rhigos. The majority of the Porthomekans are
quite industrious farmers and very puritan in personal morals. The
palace of the Demiverge then exists as a type of Sun City for South
Africa and is mainly filled with taverns, brothels, packrat fighting
dens and other places for lowlifes. The churchman daily preach against
the wickedness of the Demiverge. But the farmers have to pay a tax on
their goods to the Demiverge in return for rights to live here.
This isn't to say they haven't burrowed Caladralander customs because
they're rednecks. I can easily imagine the focus of their worship being
at an eternal flame to better commune with the creative aspect of the
Invisible God.
-Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: The inherent goodness of swamps...
Message-ID: <01HHUSBYA...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 4 Oct 94 10:53:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6451
Apologies for the lateness of this. The Fanatics of the
Wordless Prophet have been getting hold of my posts to
the mailing list for the past few days.
Sandy
-----
>>And the Goblin marshes would also be considered bad by the Doraddi.
> Why? They're fertile. There's plenty of good hunting in them,
>and some useful plants, both edible and medicinal. They aren't
>threatening to expand over the savannah, they don't send waves of
>invaders into the Doraddi countryside.
The Jrusteli monomyth in GoG says the goblins did exactly this
during the gods age (send Genodical armies on a campaign to destroy
all humankind) and so I assumed they did so on a rare basis (perhaps
three times at the most in a century). I based Doraddi views on the
swamp on this factoid.
As for good hunting, what about Malaria (or gloranthan fever to be
benign), mosquitoes and goblins? (the scythanni are xenophilic? no?)
>I don't think the Doraddi
>think that Sozganjio is bad at all. And the smaller marshes in
>occasional spots inland are doubtless viewed as wholly desirable. If
>there's one great threat in the Doraddi savannah it's got to be
>drought, which a marsh tends to mitigate, if you live near it.
The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW,
(note how we like to drain our swamps?) and in the absense of
mosquito nets (or 6legged empire protective circles!), the Doraddi
would IMO stay away from the marsh unless there was a drought on.
>>But you can say wastelands in both are chaos cursed cf the Nargan
>>and the wastelands.
> This is because Chaos makes wastelands, not because
>wastelands harbor chaos.
Echoing a complaint by Nick Brooke 'why is chaos always responsible for
everything?'
>Both the Nargan desert and the Chaos Wastes
>(named for what _caused_ it, not for what lives in it, by the way)
>were once fertile delightsome countries. Chaos wrecked 'em and did
>what Chaos tends to do when it gets ahold of fertile delights. You
>are confusing cause and effect.
Not really. The Nargan, ToTRM#11 tells me, was created by Pamalt
calling upon the sky to rain upon the Chaos armies that were in the
area. The Wastelands were created by Generts death which was caused
by Chaos.
Mind you. Vovisibor seems unchaos when he is challenging everyone
in the meeting contest. I wonder if the God Learners said 'aha he
must be chaos' and the broos of the black pus appeared in the Nargan?
>>I would say the reason for this difference [between the horrible
>>wars of Genertela and Pamaltela] is that Inland Pamaltela >does not
>>really have the magic to implement a night of horrors.
> Huh? Genertela wouldn't, either, if it hadn't had centuries
>of nonstop wars to polish its technique.
I thought I qualified this statement with the reason why this was
so was that Pamaltela didn't have so many wars as compared to
Genertela. If in any case, I agree with your assessment here.
Malso.
>I haven't even
>decided whether they are more like Zimbabwe or the Mayans so far as
>their architecture. Maybe the Elamle are Zimbabwe-types, and the
>Onlaks folks are Mayan/Aztec/Toltec/whatever.
I would choose Zimbabwean architecture as Mesoamerican is already
purloined in Dragonewt temples and the Kingdom of ignorance. Mind
you it is hard to find a good book on Golden Zimbabwe as most of them
are concerned with proving that 'ignorant blacks' could not possibly
have constructed them. Does anybody have good references?
>>>In Pamaltela, Lodril is the _bringer_ of life,
>He is the god
>credited with creating the first forms of life, including the First
>Humans. (Assisted by a trickster entity recognized as Eurmal by the
>God Learners.)
The myth also says that Lodril was looking for something to populate
his land. What was wrong with the autocthonous lifeforms? (probably
draconic related IMO). that is why I postulated that he fought the
'One who was Before' and ended up covering the land in good old lava
and requiring him to repopulate the land.
In any case about Molandro and rulership, I have taken objections on
board and think that he was the Warleader of the Earth Tribe against He
Who Moves and the Giants. When these were defeated, he was only one
among many until the next fight came up.
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: dave_cordes@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Dave Cordes)
Subject: Shaman and Sorcery Resurrec
Message-ID: <941003184...@Sun.COM>
Date: 3 Oct 94 03:25:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6453
CL QM-SMTP gw Shaman and Sorcery Resurrections
Colin Watson X-RQ-ID: 6423:
>Now, I wouldn't go as far as the Magic Book in saying that it's
>*impossible* for Shamans and Sorcerers to raise the dead; but I would say
>it's Very Hard.
gerakkag X-RQ-ID: 6426:
>I agree that shamans should be able to bring back the dead (but only
>after a struggle).
Nick Brooke X-RQ-ID: 6432:
>Shamans, like Wizards, can certainly resurrect through hefty ceremonies.
Now that at least four of us agree that resurrections should not necessarily
be limited to just the Chalanna Arroy Divine Spell. What sort of games
mechanism would someone suggest for a Shaman or Sorcerer to perform a
resurrection? I posted my suggestions a few days ago. As Colin pointed out,
and my further reading verified, my suggestions do seem to lead to a zombie
not a resurrected PC.
If anyone has some suggested game mechanism (required spells or actions) I
would like to hear (read) it. But please keep in mind that a wide variety of
GMs may be implementing or ignoring your suggestions.
To wit - For those of you siding with Nick :
>"Very Hard" sounds about right to me; but there's plenty of us who'd like
>the Rune Magic Resurrect spells to be made that difficult as well.
Why does the game system have to make resurrections "very hard"? The system
should allow for all types and attitudes of GMs and players. The ability to
resurrect should be available easily, IF THE GM WANTS IT TO BE. If the GM
wants his world to be a hard place to live, and an even harder place to come
back to life in, then he has the power to make it so. If you think that
resurrections are too easy or plentiful in your world, then you should find a
harder GM.
But please don't punish those GMs who want to play a easy world by rigidly
restricting the game system. I have played in worlds with very giving and
lenient GMs, where the story, development of the PCs, and fun were the
foremost priorities. I have also played in worlds with very hard GMs, where
daily survivial is all you have time to worry about. In their own ways, each
game was unique, challenging and fun.
But if you make the game mechanisms to restrictive, or too hard, to suit a
few hardcores then you will risk driving away a whole other faction of
players. And from what I've seen here on the dailys, this game can't afford
to lose any dedicated players. Even if they don't agree with our way of
doing things.
So lets try to develop game mechanisms that will work within the guidlines of
the Gloranthain World. And leave it up to the individual GMs as to how easy,
or hard, the mechanism is to learn and perform.
So lets see those suggested mechanisms, those flaming arrows, those burning
barbs. I'll wear my fireproof underwear tomorrow.
DC
---------------------
From: Dev...@aol.com
Subject: Re: Beasties, Grotto of Pocharngo
Message-ID: <941003150...@aol.com>
Date: 3 Oct 94 19:00:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6454
Devin here:
Thanks to Nick Eden for his advice on Sartarite beasties, although I still
have to imagine that occasionally some Praxian herd bests escape from the
tribes or wander away or are born wild and have, over the years, wandered
into Sartar and started to reproduce. Does anyone else think this possible?
WARNING....INFO ABOUT RIVER OF CRADLES SCENARIO FOLLOWS:
Klaus asks:
"My RQ group will soon be visiting the grotto of Pocharngo
(if they manage to find it.) As far as I can see from
the scenario describtion, once they are in, they are dead.
One "exit" can only be opened from the outside, the other
requires an undine. These are begining characters, they
don't have any undines. They could get one from the ZF
cult, but if they don't think of that, they are dead, right?"
Hmm, it was a long time ago when I ran that, and I don't have the book here,
but my players looked very carefully around Ogre Island and noticed the
telltale signs of the secret trapdoor there. They then entered and did that
battle thing (BTW, one was possessed by the Dragonsnail spirit and spent the
adventure bottom feeding...he he!) with all of the nasty evil bad things.
They were beginning characters are middle level characters and survived
fairly well. Obviously, the stigmata and the Breathe Water ability are
required.
Regards,
Devin
dev...@aol.com
---------------------
From: gar...@ditard.dit.gov.au
Subject: Battle of Moonbroth
Message-ID: <9409047812....@ditard.dit.gov.au>
Date: 4 Oct 94 10:27:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6456
Bryan Maloney asked about Nomad Gods to help develop an order of
battle for the Battle of Moonbroth.
I don't have Nomad Gods, but Borderlands has a few details on the
battle. From memory, the Bison and Impala tribes had help from
the Rhino Riders, the Pavis Survivors, Broos, Agimori and Newtlings.
There were also some shamans with a variety of medicine bundles and
control of Oakfed. I think the Lunars had Grazerlander and Dragonewt
mercenaries on side as well as the Sable tribe.
The battle was a total disaster for the Praxians. The Grazelanders
and Sables drove off the skirmishing Impalas and Pavis Survivors. The
charge of the Bison and Rhinos broke down when the Lunars threw
caltrops in their path. Oakfed couldn't withstand the Lunar magics
and his shamans died again and again. The remaining Praxians,
including the Broos, Newtlings and Agimori, succumbed to the Lunar
hoplites once their mounted allies fled.
Hope this helps you.
Gary James
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Kitori
Message-ID: <941004025...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 02:57:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6458
David Cake on the origins of the Kitori:
> I think that they started as two separate tribes allied, and the first
> ceremonial marriage made them a single tribe "officially".
I think merger between tribes is quite unusual, even among all-same-species
sorts. More usual is tribes to be formed by enlargement of a clan, or
allying of neighbouring clans, grow by absorbing other clans, and finally
split into two or more successor tribes, or disintegrate entirely, possibly
starting off the whole cycle over again. I suspect that the Kitori started
off as an all troll grouping, perhaps a single clan, and has grown into a
tribe by "adopting" human clans.
> I definately disagree that humans are allowed to join KL, except in
> the normal (excruciating) way.
I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll-
only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity. If there
were an explicit recognition that the two races were irrevocably distinct,
and had in fact, no common founder, it would lead to something of an (ahem)
uz and them attitude, and wouldn't be conducive to the maintanance of a
single unfied tribe. Maybe Sandy's closer when he says they're all (both
troll and human) Argan Argar nutters. Or maybe we should just (cop out by)
say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots
of AA-like surface darkness magic.
> I think that blurring the species
> distinction like that would be heresy to the KL cult, and that is not a
> pleasant thing to contemplate.
Of course it is. Whatever else the Kitori are, I'm sure they're heretics.
(A faint Eric Idle-like voice, off: "Burn 'em!")
> >I'd say they were "Stygians", in that they have significant resources
> >of sorcery knowledge, in the context of theist worship. (Not in the sense
> >of being an IG worship heresy.) Though more will know rune magic than
> >sorcery, I feel.
> We feel that most Kitori are divine users, but there exists a
> substantial minority of Arkati, a large proportion of whom (how large we
> disagree on) are specialist sorcerers. Ie compared to a Western culture,
> there are very few 'low sorcery' users, but a reasonable amount of
> professional sorcerers.
I think we're (all?) agreeing on the substance, though we may be disagreeing
about terminology. I think they recognise Arkat as a worshippable being,
so in that sense the culture is "Arkati". They'd regard a ("specialised")
sorcerer much as they would regard a priestess or a shaman, that is, as an
important and dedicated co-religionist. I entirely agree about the low/high
sorcery prevalence.
> These sorcerers are Arkati, and are all at least
> initiates in a troll divine cult as well.
Presumably they worship (and join the "cult" of) Arkat, so they're Arkati
in that sense, yes. Only initiates, I'd have said, given the prohibition
on even, say, KL priestesses being sorcerers.
> I think that the House of Black Arkat is not within Kitori lands
> (because if it was trolls would be admitted).
I'm inclined to take the opposite view that the note of BA is confused, and
meant to say "mainly" humans. Shameless, I know.
> I suspect that the House of
> Black Arkat is a hold over from when trolls ruled Kethaela, or maybe from
> Arkats time there, and it contains only humans because it is not near
> trolls - ie not near the Troll Woods like the Kitori, and not bordering the
> Shadow Plateau.
Begging the obvious question: where is it then? Next to the trolls is the
obvious place to have either voilently pro- or anti- troll cults.
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Doraddi vs. Oralnthi
Message-ID: <941004030...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:04:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6459
David Cake replying to innumerable people:
> First, a little cultural specifics - family means different things to the
> Doraddi than to the Orlanthi. To the Orlanthi, 'marrying into the family'
> is a weak concept - the children are not necessarily of that tribe, you may
> share no property, etc. To the Doraddi it is a strong concept - all that is
> yours is theirs, you always change tribes if you marry into it, etc.
There's the minor detail that most marriages are in-tribe, but out-of-clan,
and that lineage is (normally) through different parents between the two
cultures, but the situations seem fairly comparable otherwise. The Orlanthi
situation is complicated by the different forms of marriage, but in the vast
majority of cases, where a person of either sex "marries into" a clan, their
children (of that marriage) are members of it.
> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.
I think you just argued that "kithship" was more important, not kinship
per se. (Which you later disagree with, to boot.)
[Orlanth is:]
> Son of a minor Earth goddess, and one of the many husbands of Ernalda.
For most of the Barbarian Belt, he's _the_ husband of Ernalda. Esrolia
is exceptional, if not unique.
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Black Arkat
Message-ID: <941004030...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:05:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6460
Joerg seeks to outflank Martin C., on Black Arkati "sorcery"
> > But the Arkati think of them as miracles from their god,
> > not as manipulations of natural laws.
by:
> So do a vast majority of the Malkioni, IMO.
I disagree with you both, though more so with Joerg. As Sandy pointed out
when he accused me (erroneously) of making the same (erroneous) point, most
sensible Wizards know that Evil Sorcerors can cast exactly the same spells
as they do. They'll Burn (Freeze?) in Hell for it, mind you.
The Black (and trollish) Arkati _worship_ in the divine manner, I think,
but don't think of their sorcery spells as divine effects. After all,
they know where and how he got them, and that non-divine-magic things like
intellectual effort are needed to study them.
> If anybody wants a fire-based henotheist church, I might write one up
> - it would be the logical next step after the Aeolians...
There's an obvious place for something like this, but suggesting it might
provoke all-out Nick/Joerg warfare.
> Free INT 8 is out!
Any noos on the threatened english translations? I'm only prepared to
resort to word-for-word translations with D->E dictionaries in hand for
extreme cases, like paragraphs mentioning me by name. ;-)
Read German 1%-ly,
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Arkati and Illumination.
Message-ID: <941004030...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 03:09:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6461
Dag Olausson and Jonas Schiott:
> The widespread acceptance of these definitions [of the Dark Side and
> the Light Side of Nysalor/Illumination, in moral terms] is partly due
> to the efforts of the Arkat cult (who regard themselves as the only
> genuine Light Siders, any other Riddler must be Dark)
This assumes that the Arkati regard themselves as Illuminates, which
Greg assures (nay, chastens) me is not the case. They consider
themselves to me opposed to Illimination and Nysalor worship in all
forms. I suspect that the above is, however, true without modification
for some Lunar schools of Illumination. Also, third age cults of (some
aspects of) Arkat may bear little resemblance to Arkat cult(s) of the
Dark Empire. As to whether any of them displays any of the "symptoms"
of Illumination depends very much on which group
we're speaking of. I doubt the Kitori/Black Arkati do, for example.
> partly the
> result of an inclination among Gloranthans to fall back on dualism
> whenever in doubt.
Now yer talkin'.
> But in fact, many Illuminates don't fit either mold:
Given the freedom Illuminates have to act however they wish, neither the
"Light" or "Dark" side is so much as mould, as a handy label.
Alex.
---------------------
From: rap...@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Light Sons in Drag
Message-ID: <1994100403...@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 4 Oct 94 23:37:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6462
>Despite creating her long ago, David Hall and Nick Brooke have
>been trying to convince me of late that Vega is in fact, really
>a *Light Son* (seen "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert", anyone?).
>Of course, that cannot be true because Light Sons are forbidden
>to disguise themselves as women, (see Yelmalio cult write-up in
>CoP or SC) but then, why have such a weird rule if there wasn't
>such a problem in the first place?
Come on. You think Solanthos, that old prude, would let Vega get away with
that? He's worse than Fred Nile (A NSW preacher/politician). She'd have
been exposed long ago. On the other hand, those rumours in Sun County may
have some basis, and Solanthos just doesn't like heterosexuals, using the
letter of the law against them, but turns a blind eye on Vega.
Disguising yourself as a woman is a broad crime. :-) Having your ears
pierced instead of wearing arm rings (did I get that the right way around?)
or becoming a shaman (wise women, not wise men).
I can see some of Sydney's RuneQuest community getting a Sun County
float together for Mardi Gras. All those sculpted breatplates & bare
legs. They could get Glorantha on live national television, & news
bulletins around the globe! ;-)
--
Andrew Raphael <rap...@research.canon.oz.au>
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
---------------------
From: guy....@chrysalis.org
Subject: RUNEQUEST DAI
Message-ID: <941003235...@chrysalis.org>
Date: 3 Oct 94 22:51:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6463
Just in case anybody's interested, Sandy's got some GREAT ideas about
Kralorelan magic (NOT sorcery), and also about the East Isles. We're
currently in Kralorela in his campaign, and he's tantalized us with
tidbits. Pester him so's he'll post it here.
Sandy, is the magic in Pamaltela different too? (We might go there
too.)
Guy
aka Fido Two-Big-Clubs (DON'T DRINK THE WHITE STUFF!)
* RM
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: A load of Bull, etc.
Message-ID: <941004054...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 05:40:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6464
Nick Brooke on Joerg's suggestion that Yelm was a guardian entity in his
original (evidently somewhat sloppily drafted) end-user-spec:
> It's an outgrowth of Joerg's own Aeolian theories. I think he'd agree it's
> not the *normal* Orlanthi POV, but I'm unsure if he's trying to pull a fast
> one by mentioning it here. It's possible Joerg has just forgotten where it
> came from: it can happen to us creative types.
Another place it comes from, of course, is the Entesokiad, but there's no
reason to suppose the Orlanthi would have picked up on this, other than the
fact that it makes good propaganda.
> What does "Urox" say to you that "Storm Bull" doesn't, you lanky Scots git?
It tells me that: we're not in Prax (anymore, Toto); that the gods may
speak Tradetalk, but only at 20% or so; and that I'd just hoist you
with your own (and my, admittedly) anti-GLish petard.
Oops, hang on, I need an insult: eh, you mesomorphic Sassenach oaf?
> Obviously Sartar, being within spitting distance of the Block and regularly
> raided by Praxian types, is almost certainly within Storm-Bull-as-described
> territory.
Naaaaah. I'm sure they share aforesaid two mythic events, at least, though.
However, I don't take it as read that they put the same importance on them,
or have entirely symmetric interpretations of them, much less other cultic
fripperies.
> You'd get some local myths (like "How Orlanth Tamed Storm Bull")
> unlikely to be known or told in Prax, but the Big Myth of the Block could
> stay the same.
I'd imagine that the Block myth is still present, but (at least relatively)
less important, as Not Invented Here and the Praxians being such a bunch of
(smelly) arseholes. Possibly still the most important single myths, though.
> If Ralios is "an extreme case", what on earth are Fronelan Storm Bulls
> going to be like?
Fronela isn't really more extreme, Ralios is isolated enough from Dragon
Pass to be going on with. Depends if there's been wholesale change (on
either side) during the Ban.
> > Storm Walk mountain ... with a different spin
> What, counterclockwise? Talk about doubleplusungoodwise phrasing!
Talk about a doublepluspresumptious ellision cum rephrasing! Big Alex,
malreported...
> Also, I'm
> not sure whether that's primarily a Praxian or a Holy Country story -- as
> it's not mentioned in Nomad Gods but was developed for MoLaD, I'd suspect
> the latter.
Hendriki, surely. Of course, its position will almost certainly mean that
it's about as important to the Praxians, with the above caveats. By this
logic, the Sartarites, having lots of former Hendriki among them, may be
pretty big on the Stormwalk myth.
Scott Haney cautions against numbing the tastes buds at a Burns' Supper
too much:
> Yeah, well, you have to be very careful with that...I tried it, and I wound
> up proposing marriage later that evening!
A small price to pay. Remember the old Orlmarth proverb: "Marriage may be
hard, Varmandi haggis is even harder."
Alex.
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Pocharngo's Grotto; Whinge About Geases
Message-ID: <941003215351_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 3 Oct 94 21:53:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6455
______
Klaus:
Have you ever played "Call of Cthulhu"? Treat Pocharngo's Grotto like a
really heavy cult site in that game and you should be fine. Scare the
players with sounds, smells, atmosphere, sightings of nasty things; then
terrify them with the Big One, and *let them escape*. You could have the
Zola Fel cultists rescue them spontaneously, or coincidentally, if needed:
I'm never troubled if powerful PC groups happen by to free prisoners of the
Trolls/Broos/bad guys. After all, later on, when you're playing at higher
levels, it'll be your players doing the rescuing (inadvertently or not).
And, moreover, the first rule of GMing is, "Gamemasters never cheat". It
ain't possible, as nobody sits in judgement over us. So the other exit
*didn't* have to be opened by Undines, if the alternative is butchering a
party and ruining the campaign you've been running for several months. Or
the tunnel they run away down is, by chance, the one that leads to the
surface. I know some purists will be shocked by this, but sometimes MGF =
MGI (that is, Maximum Game Fun requires Moderate Gamemaster Intervention).
There are things PCs were not meant to achieve unaided. Pocharngo's Grotto,
for newbies, is probably one of them. If they've told nobody where they're
going, and asked nobody for advice or help, I'd frankly give them Hell.
Just as I would if they wandered blindly into the Devil's Marsh, or chose
to attack the Lunar Army. What is RuneQuest all about, after all, if not
social roleplaying? But if their priests and politicians and leaders have
all warned them off and/or provided whatever backup you think appropriate,
I'd let them feel like Heroes, whatever they go on to do.
I hate killing campaigns and characters. So do the players. Ernalda says,
"There is always another way." Just bear that in mind, when they're running
for the exit...
________________
Peter W replied:
> May I presume that you include on the Yelmalio Geas table, in deference
> to certain Greek practices:
>
> 'Thou shalt not chase Junior Sun Dome Templars around the Yard' <bg>
Aha! This opens up an interesting area for speculation: as many here know,
religious and/or legal prohibitions are usually imposed (from on high or
down below) to stop normal people from doing things they'd otherwise be
quite happy to carry on doing. (Reading the Bible once you see this makes
the periodic religious reforms of the Kings far more interesting! Imagine
"the history of Sartar as written by extremist Humakti", rather than "the
history of Sartar". Good kings worship our god; bad kings, the others.).
RuneQuest's "Geas" tables are unusual in that while they do make it clear
what "pure" Humakti or Yelmalions will be like, no "minimum standard" is
imposed by them. So (one presumes) a Humakti without the "Never use poison"
geas would feel no moral qualms about doing so, and would not suffer for it
either tangibly (Spirit of Retribution, Excommunication, beaten up by his
colleagues) or in reputation ("Some folk call him Corwen the Poisoner, but
most of us don't hold that against him: only Ignar the Healthy, Flostak
Broo-Hunter and Bertha Rosycheeks in our Temple shun the use of poison, and
even *they* don't mind when their friends use it.")
So, if "Thou shalt not chase..." were to be made a Yelmalion Geas, the
*obvious implication* would be that most Sun Domers would be culturally
inclined to do so, and (moreover) that almost all were not prohibited by
ethical or legal or peer-pressuring considerations from pursuing their
inclinations, and that those who did were seen as rather odd: self-denying
and austere in their piety.
Apropos of which, I've sometimes wondered how to replace the rather unusual
"Geas" mechanism with something that "feels right" to me in this light:
Perhaps a mechanic that encourages players to act in accordance with as
many Geases as possible in order to reap maximum benefits from their
deity-of- choice. Making temple POW gains, or MP recovery, or something
else magical, somehow dependent on correct behaviour.
Or punishing lapses from "ideal" behaviour rather than forcing compliance
with limited aspects of it. (Like, any Yelmalion who got on well with a
Troll would suffer somehow for it; those who disdain and distrust them
would be 'neutral' in the cult: no reward, no penalty; one who always
challenges all Trolls on sight would get some kind of benefit).
Or linking Geases to Rune magic: only Humakti who never Lie (or who haven't
Lied for a season, or since the last Holy Day, or whatever) would be able
to cast Detect Truth; only Humakti who don't accept magical healing can
cast Sever Spirit; Truesword cannot be cast on a blade which has ever been
poisoned; that kind of thing.
Or making the whole thing more social/open, so that *most* Humakti try to
live by *all* the cult's Geases, even though only some of them would suffer
terrible punishments for breaking them.
I just think people are more likely to publicly renounce some generally-
accepted "sin" (and afterwards, pleasingly, receive some benefit for it)
than to select or have imposed a *random* penalty to receive a peculiar
benefit.
Currently, the system feels odd (to me). I'd certainly step up the level of
priestly involvement in the selection of Geases, to increase MGF. "In our
Temple, we NEVER speak on Freezeday." I'd incline to impose the prohibition
of my GM-ing choice (and present the benefit as a side-effect), rather than
keep the current minimaxing "choose whatever you want" system. But this may
just be that the rule is presented backwards to what I'd prefer: picking
your (divinely-granted) benefit and *therefore* suffering your (non-self-
imposed) restriction. Should the shoe instead be on the other foot?
Of course, the fact that *only* the randomly-imposed prohibitions etc. are
described as Geases adds to the strangeness; if you rewrote Chalana Arroy
(for example) to say that "all Healers must take a Geas to harm no living
being", the term would feel more natural when encountered in its Humakti
context. Or we could call the aberrant "geases" "Vows", or "cult duties",
or some such?
I just can't help thinking of RQ OT characters in the Cult of Yahweh being
allowed to pick and choose (or rolling 1D10 to discover?) which of the Ten
Commandments they'll have to follow...
And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
obviously thought as hard about the techniques of Hoplite and Phalangite
warfare as MOB did in his memorable passage on 2H Spear w/Shield in Sun
County.
"Sorry, sir: looks like I'll have to stay in the back rank. 'Never wear any
head protection', that's my geas..."
(Perhaps that one gets assigned to Light Sons' sons? Or to female Templars?
Or to folk like me who make suggestions like that?)
(Of course, the situation was far worse in 1st edition days! "Never use any
shield", forsooth! "Will all those who rolled a '57' assemble at the *left*
edge of the Phalanx...")
Sorry about that, it's just a whinge I felt I had to get off my chest.
Normal service will be resuming shortly.
====
Nick
====
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6465: raphael = (Andrew Raphael)
- Re: Shaman resurrection
6466: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Matters diverse
6467: davidc = (David Cake)
- Kitori and Black Arkat
6468: davidc = (David Cake)
- TOTRM #12
6469: davidc = (David Cake)
- Shamans
6470: JARDINE = JAR...@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
- Non-divine Ressurrection
6471: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
- Re: Arkati and Illumination
6472: watson = (Colin Watson)
- Re: Shaman and Sorcery Resurrections
6473: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 Oct 1994
6474: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Wizards v. Sorcerers
6475: 100102.3001 = (Peter J. Whitelaw)
- Son of Geas
6476: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Orlanth Rex; swamps; Great Zimbabwe; geases
6477: jcw7 = (Chris Wehman)
- Dirkar the Betrothed
6478: mmorrison = (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
- CA/nonCA resurrexion; geases
6479: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
- The Real Truth (tm) about the Red Moon
---------------------
From: rap...@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Re: Shaman resurrection
Message-ID: <1994100408...@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 04:24:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6465
dave_cordes@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (Dave Cordes) writes:
>This situation that we find ourselves in (permanent deaths) has led us to
>try some different options. What I want to know is if it is possible for
>a shaman to ressurect a dead character.
Since one of the primary myths of Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship is the
separation of the dead from the living, resurrection might be seen
as sacreligious.
Shamans don't have to make the distinction between the living & the dead
that theists or atheists do. Just because someone who was knowledgable,
skilled, or powerful is now dead doesn't mean they are inaccessible. They
can be summoned again, bound into a matrix, or allowed to possess someone,
bringing them "back to life".
For example, there's a shaman in Dorastor who specialises in summoning
the spirits of long-dead Dorastan humans, & putting them into the bodies
of greyskins. These greyskins no longer fear death, for the spirits
controlling them know that the shaman will simply summon them again.
Rather than trying to resurrect your companion, you should see to it
that she is sent to the spirit world with the proper ceremonies, and
that she can be called back if the need arises. "Alas, poor Yorick.
I knew him, Horatio."
>After this failed attempt we started discussing if my attempts would
>have been successful, if I could have gotten his ghost back to the
>material plain. Finally someone found this quote from the Magic Book
>page 28: "Only Divine Magic can bring back an adventurer from the
>dead, a capability which greatly encourages such characters to learn
>or convert to that approach to magic".
>Why? What is the difference between what I detailed here and the
>resurrection spell?
Because a spirit can't possess a dead body. Binding a spirit into a dead
body makes a zombie (well, it does in RQ3). Only the gods of healing can
make your body alive again & put your spirit into it. Shamans just aren't
powerful enough.
--
Andrew Raphael <rap...@research.canon.oz.au>
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
---------------------
From: ni...@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Matters diverse
Message-ID: <941004092...@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 4 Oct 94 11:27:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6466
Nils Weinander writing
Simon Lipscomb has a lot of sensible things to say about resurrection.
I totally agree that the availability is culturally conditioned. A minor
gripe only:
>Kralorela: Although they have some elements of Yelmic belief, I feel the
>Kralorelans are strongly influenced by dragonewt philosophy and so believe in
>reincarnation, into a higher state if they live a worthy life. Thus it would be
>wrong to resurrect someone as it would keep them in a lower position.
Kralorelans in good standing with society get _out of_ reincarnation. When
they die their spirits go to Vithela, where they await the death of the
current emperor. When the emperor passes on he collects the spirits and
departs with them to some unknown place, outside Gloranthan reach. Perhaps
some kind of draconic paradise.
_____
Wayne Gaudin:
>I would also like to post various scenarios I have written.
Good initiative which will surely be appreciated.
>There is also the
>matter of maps. I could uuencode the graphics to reduce the size or simply
>use an ASCII format. What formats can most people read, Gif,Tiff,Postscipt etc.
uuencoded real graphics is better. GIF or TIFF is preferable over PS since
they are easier to convert if they don't suit you.
_____
Peter Metcalfe on Pamaltelan magic:
>Joerg knows of my view in that they did pratice a distinct form of
>Rune Magic before the advent of the six legged empire. The strength
>of this magic (I wouldn't detail the mechanics here cause IMO it's
>v. rare) was that the spells could only be cast communally in mass
>dances (ie like war dances before battles), as opposed to calling
>upon the god at a snap of the fingers (ie conventional divine magic).
This is very interesting. Please do detail the mechanics.
_____
Peter Metcalfe on architecture:
>I would choose Zimbabwean architecture as Mesoamerican is already
>purloined in Dragonewt temples and the Kingdom of ignorance.
As always I prick up my ears when the east is mentioned. What's this
about the Kingdom of Ignorance? Where can I find more about their
architecture (and preferredly other things too)?
_____
Nick on geases:
I have thought similar thoughts but not to the obvious conclusion Nick makes.
I think the suggestion that you get benefits from trying to follow all
geases is perfectly logical. Myself I only reasoned as far as presuming
that gift and geas should match each other. For example, a Humakti who
gets the Sense assassin gift should get the No poison geas etc.
Anyway, following all geases seems 'right', but perhaps there should be
the possibility to be extra strict in special areas? Just a suggestion to
make truth rune cultists less stereotypical.
>And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
Ludicrous is the word. Why would Yelmalio want to impose geases on his
devoted worshippers which make them worthless in combat?
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: TOTRM #12
Message-ID: <1994100410...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 02:46:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6468
I have just received my Tales #12, congrats on the colour cover,
very nice.
Is the Book of Emperors, as mentioned in the inside cover Edict,
available now? If so, anyone got it yet?
Warhamster looks quite worthwhile, I hope that I can eventually use
it. I have always admired the way AD&Ds Battle System integrates so well
with the rest of the game system (see, even TSR ocassionally produces
something worthwhile :-)), and I hope that Warhamster can do the same for
RQ.
I am not quite so pleased with the rest of it yet (though I haven't
read the fiction yet). Granite Phalanx seems well written, but continues
the tendencies I have seen happening in other RQ stuff to make everything
into a new cult, and to make up spells to explain what could just be
explained by superiour training and organisation. Do we really need spells
to explain why shield walls are a worthwhile tactic? Do we really need new
cults for each lunar regiment? I would much rather that it was just a sub
cult at best, and relied on training rather than magic.
And Queen Ogzags Hill read nicely, but will be very difficult to
use in most peoples game.
Yours Curmudgeonly
Dave Cake
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Shamans
Message-ID: <1994100410...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 02:46:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6469
>This should not be so. For whatever strange reason, the authors of RQ3's
>Spirit Magic chapter chose to leave out almost all the weird and wonderful
>things shamans can do; possibly intending to print them "next year" in
>HeroQuest.
I think that the RQ3 shamanic rules betray rather a lack of effort
put into them anyway. I quite like them as far as it goes, but even
important things are left unspecified. I think that the rules where
written, playtested as far as a few NPC shamans, but no serious playtesting
from the point of PC shamans.
At least, my attempts at having PC shamans showed up some holes
pretty quickly.
> Shamans, like Wizards, can certainly resurrect through hefty
>ceremonies.
Can I just say the blindingly obvious here - shamans can Resurrect,
and they do it by using divine magic. The separation into divine magic and
shamanic is an artificial separation, that makes sense in the context of
the RQ3 magic book, but does not hold up to Gloranthan reality. The
majority of RQ shamans are divine magic users as well.
How does a shaman Resurrect? Well a large proportion of them are
Ancestor worshippers, and cast Resurrect. Of course, it looks a lot
different to the casual observer, but in game terms much the same thing is
happening. The shaman summons the soul of the deceased (similar to the way
he summons ancestors), drives it back into its body, and intercedes with
Daka Fal to bind the two together again. Now maybe he interecedes less as a
worshipper and more as an acquaintance, but the result is the same.
Shamans who are not ancestor worshippers, or otherwise able to
Resurrect, probably do not know the lands and the lords of the dead to be
able to bring someone back. Shamans will think of their relationship to the
gods differently, but they will still know that it requires the favour of
someone powerful to undo what death has done. Some shamans may learn to do
it themselves (particularly the famous RQ2 self-resurrection ability) but
they must heroquest to gain such a power, probably learning it from one of
the gods who has it.
I definately agree that without divine magic, bringing back the
dead is not truely possible through pure shamanic means - and attempts to
do so result in undead, such as the zombies described in the RQ3 Creatures
book.
>They can also visit gods to intercede with them directly: more
>random and dangerous than Priestly access to divine power, but possible.
Either the god demands worship, and then you have a spirit cult
(compare troll worship of Asrelia or Lodril), or the shaman wants to
bargain, and then its called HeroQuesting.
>The game mechanics for Shamans are a blind to hide what they can in fact
>do: a "ShamanPak" or long discursive essay by One Who Knows would be a very
>handy thing to have.
The game mechanics for shamans miss the vital clue - most of them
are divine worshippers in some manner as well. Compare the varying
abilities of the Hsunchen, the Daka Fal, the Black Fang, Waha, Aldrya/
Flamal, Cannibal Cult, and Pamalt shamans. All are definataly shamans, but
their abilities vary greatly. For some of them the divine spells very
nicely work with shamanic abilities, too (particularly Daka Fal and
Pamalt). Then there is the huge variety of minor spirit cults to choose
from, the vast majority of which are unpublished, except for the troll
ones. And then there is the shamanic ability to control almost any spirit
that they can beat in combat, and us it against others later. With an
inventive GM that can be a great source of flavour.
We know of perhaps a dozen or so shamanic traditions, and there is
only one small and atypical tradition that does not include divine worship,
the Telmori Ituvani (who exist only alongside the more conventional Telmor
shamans).
No, I do not really think that we need many more rules for shamans
(we do need some, because some of the current rules for things like
exploring the spirit plane, and contacting spirits are very dodgy or
incomplete). What we need is a lot more source material and guidance on
what shamans do. Oh, and we really need HeroQuest, of course :-).
If there was to be a ShamanPak, what I would really like to see is
just a lot more about the geography and denizens of the spirit plane.
Basically a less abstract version of spirit travel, and a large number of
examples of the variety of spirits that exist and how shamans interact with
them. If the 6 page Troll Spirits section of Troll Gods was replicated for
Sartar spirits, or Praxian spirits, then that would be a great boon for
creating PC shamans. I guess a few small tips on some shamanic magic items
would be cool too (like the short section in Griffon Island).
There is a net version of the Praxian spirits (in fact I think that
there are two incompatible net versions), if this was hammered into a
finished form it would be pretty good.
Cheers
Dave
>====
>Nick
>====
>
---------------------
From: JAR...@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Non-divine Ressurrection
Message-ID: <941004125...@Sun.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 94 12:52:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6470
Continuing the discussion on getting stiffs working with Divine Magic.
1) I am all for Shaman doing it (although it is definately harder this way).
If the spirit is too big for your fetch to hold use gift power so that they
can give your fetch POW to hold them. This also sorts out payment... I am
not sure whether mindlink is necessary on the spirit plane (why can't two
consenting adult spirits just merge and cast each others spells?
2) Whenbound back into its body this forms a LIVING being not a Zombie.
Remember the definition of Undead is cannot regenerate MPs normally.
3) Rewrite for Daka Fal scrub Resurrection as the shaman can do it with
Summon Ancestor and Ghost Binding Enchantment. I still think DF should have
spirit block. Remember this originally came from Flesh Man and he was/is a
close associate of DF & Grandfather Mortal.
4) The above resurrection system is cheaper for shamans than the 1-use normal
spell (2 POW instead of 3). Obviously, non-ancestor worshipers will have to
do it the hard way and trek about the spirit plane to find the spirit.
5) I doubt that Malkioni are so dead set against resurrection as one poster
implied. Their attitudes are to some extend influenced by the Brithini.
Brithini abhore DEATH, they hate the concept of aging and also violent death
above just about everything (except the Vadeli of course). One thing I rememberfrom a sneaky peak at Arkat's Saga was the cry of "Save the Bodies" from the
ranks of the Brithini army when some of their number were killed and swept out
to sea. Obviously they have a means of resurrection and would have used it!
Also remember the Aolian heratics who allow St CA to function in their midst.
I doubt whether they would have accepted her unique gifts if they came from
a culture that was fervently against resurrection.
6) I suspect sorcerous resurrection consists of creating a binding enchantment
in the body and summoning the spirit of the departed back and forcing them into the body. Note that the binding enchantment is broken if the body is reduced
to zero HP. and must be repaired. Thus resurrections after the first one only
cost 1 POW. I suspect that the western Church would insist that a condition
was placed on the binding enchantment that only the original spirit of the
body could be placed within it. This avoids exceptionally nasty accidents
which might happen if a demon possessed (was bound into) the body...
7) Ths binding enchantment view provides one way of regarding death. That
which binds spirit and body together is broken by excessive damage to the body. This allows the spirit to go free and thus begin to make its way to...
The decreptitude bought about by old age also weakens the body and thus the
bindings of the spirit, until at last it seperates and goes on its way.
Well there's food for thought
Cheers
Lewis
---------------------
From: jonas....@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Re: Arkati and Illumination
Message-ID: <941004150...@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 4 Oct 94 17:08:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6471
Alex replying to our scenario -
>> The widespread acceptance of these definitions [of the Dark Side and
>> the Light Side of Nysalor/Illumination, in moral terms] is partly due
>> to the efforts of the Arkat cult (who regard themselves as the only
>> genuine Light Siders, any other Riddler must be Dark)
>
>This assumes that the Arkati regard themselves as Illuminates, which
>Greg assures (nay, chastens) me is not the case. They consider
>themselves to me opposed to Illimination and Nysalor worship in all
>forms.
Ho-hum. Gregged again. CoP (our reference for all this) says that Arkati
consider themselves the epitome of the Light Side. But of course, the idea
of "Arkati" wasn't very well developed back then. If we want to salvage
that old description, then we can assume that at least _one_ Arkat movement
(perhaps a really underground one that hasn't been written about yet)
preserves the original secret of Arkat's Illumination and encourages it
among its members.
>> But in fact, many Illuminates don't fit either mold:
>
>Given the freedom Illuminates have to act however they wish, neither the
>"Light" or "Dark" side is so much as mould, as a handy label.
Yes, we know: that's our point. The passage you're citing is an attempt to
discredit the dualism. As I thought I'd made clear with my closing remarks.
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: wat...@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: Shaman and Sorcery Resurrections
Message-ID: <1994100415...@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 4 Oct 94 17:57:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6472
___________
Dave Cordes:
> Now that at least four of us agree that resurrections should not necessarily
> be limited to just the Chalanna Arroy Divine Spell.
Four in agreement? There must be some mistake. ;-)
> What sort of games mechanism would someone suggest for a Shaman or
> Sorcerer to perform a resurrection?
I think you were along the right lines as far as recovering the spirit
is concerned. Binding the spirit back into its body would, IMO, require that
the corpse be Enchanted - it's necessary to recreate the magic which allows
things to live.
Bind Ghost won't do because it just binds a spirit (with INT & POW) into
an inanimate corpse (which, at best, has SIZ & APP): the result is incomplete.
I tend to adhere to the idea that newly-dead spirits retain their STR, CON
and DEX for a while after death (though these characteristics are fairly useless
in the spirit-world and tend to dissolve in a matter of days). If you recovered
the spirit quickly enough and used a 5-POW binding enchantment on the body
(to bind the pseudo-ghost's INT POW DEX STR and CON) I think you'd essentially
restore the person's life.
To me this seems "Very Hard" enough.
1/ You have the trouble of recovering the spirit.
2/ You have the cost of enchanting the corpse (5 POW).
And the risk of failure: 5 POW for naught.
3/ You have a time-limit - the spirit gradually loses DEX, STR & CON.
In addition, the enchantment might give the shaman some sort of hold over
the resurrectee - like knowledge of how to break the enchantment thereby
severing the beneficiery's spirit.
> Why does the game system have to make resurrections "very hard"? The system
> should allow for all types and attitudes of GMs and players. The ability to
> resurrect should be available easily, IF THE GM WANTS IT TO BE.
Resurrection is powerful magic; its cost and difficulty should reflect this.
Create Zombie is costly and difficult but it only restores a parody of life.
Surely full life-restoration should be more costly and more difficult?
(For this same reason I think CA's reusable Resurrection is way too powerful.)
If you want resurrection to be freely available then you can simply
populate the world with powerful, altruistic NPCs who are willing to sack
POW at the drop of a hat.
> If the GM
> wants his world to be a hard place to live, and an even harder place to come
> back to life in, then he has the power to make it so.
I don't want my world to be a *hard* place to live - I want it to be
a *fair* place to live. PCs don't die too regularly so resurrection is
not required. (When they die they stay dead).
I'd fudge things to avoid unnecessary PC death rather than fudge things
*after* death to get them back to life again.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 Oct 1994
Message-ID: <941004191...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 4 Oct 94 05:15:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6473
David Cake:
> The Exigers sound a bit like a less extreme version of the Kingdom
>of War (minus the unifying leader).
Think of them as a cross between the ancient Spartans and the
Chinese Triads.
>In TOTRM #11, the Exigers are described as having mastered many
>unusual fighting arts. I got the impression that the various tribes
>within the Exigers each had different specialist techniques. Is this
>correct? If so, what are some examples of the special techniques?
Your assumption is correct. Three examples: The Brand clan
(broken up and defeated in my house campaign) used flaming weapons in
combat, trying to set fire to their foes' shields and armor with
burning tar in the midst of melee. The Kujerung clan specialized in
thrown weapons and had tactics appropriate to maximize such. The
Viter clan used venom on their weapons and missiles and booby traps.
>To differentiate them from the KOW, I like the idea that they do
>not have religious differences, but more straight political rivalry,
>with frequent deadly personal vendettas.
They in fact do not have any important religious differences.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Wizards v. Sorcerers
Message-ID: <941004192937_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 94 19:29:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6474
____
Alex cites Sandy as claiming:
> ... most sensible Wizards know that Evil Sorcerors can cast exactly the
> same spells as they do.
Yeah, if we're taking "spells" from RQ3's limited list. But certainly not
if we're talking about the harmonious societal kingdom-enhancing "divine"
Wizardry that is the Malkioni speciality. Evil Sorcerers could, of course,
embrace Malkion's Law, and through God's Grace come to possess the same
powers of blessing and so on that sensible Wizards have. But surely there
must be a ethical/moral/religious dimension to what GoG presents simply as
"the Worship Invisible God sorcery spell"?
___________
Dave Cordes pleads:
> Please don't punish those GMs who want to play a easy world by rigidly
> restricting the game system.
I'd never dream of doing that: "Less is more" where role-playing rulesets
are concerned, IMHO. But what GM is foolish enough to follow all (or any)
of the rules against his or her own inclinations?
> Let's try to develop game mechanisms that will work within the guide-
> lines of the Gloranthan World.
I thought Greg's views on the rarity of healing magic in Glorantha (i.e.
"There's about 1/10th as much Healing in the world as you'd assume from
playing RuneQuest") were well known by now. That is to say, RuneQuest no
longer accurately models Greg's vision of Glorantha. If it ever did. That
said, RQ-Glorantha is still a real fun place to play, and I don't imagine
many of us will be leaving it through a minor quibble about the magic
system. (Or why do we still play RQ3, with crap Sorcery rules and all?)
Which means, as we can have no fixed model for what is Gloranthan and what
ain't, that each of us can espouse the gaming-style that suits us best. But
that doesn't mean we shouldn't express opinions about how the game-of-the-
world "ought to work". I think Resurrection should be difficult, dangerous
and scary. I can't turn that concept into a mechanic, because then it would
become abuseable. I just bear it in mind whenever the idea comes up, and
try to spread it through nuance and innuendo. Otherwise, if I pin it down
to die rolls and POW costs and risks, some clever-clogs rules-lawyer will
work out that the best and safest Resurrections are those cast by Chalana
Arroy Dryads (or whatever) and try to warp the world that way. Like pissant
powergamers wanting to play stinking Chaos cultists, or Illuminated Humakti
Vampires, or shit like that.
I say that we should Make Death Hurt, or where's the glory in adventuring?
There's a good Orlanthi Stave about this, but I can't be bothered to dig it
out right now (being drunk while I enjoy my last night as a 25-yr-old). You
know the one I mean, anyway.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: 10010...@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Son of Geas
Message-ID: <941004223700_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 94 22:37:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6475
Hi all,
Nick aired some grievances about the 'geas' mechanism as it stands. I have to
confess that I had not given this subject much thought before now. On
reflection, however, I tend to agree with much of Nick's post. The most
persuasive arguement being:
>I just can't help thinking of RQ OT characters in the Cult of Yahweh being
>allowed to pick and choose (or rolling 1D10 to discover?) which of the Ten
>Commandments they'll have to follow...
I expect that a good Yelmalion, or Humakti, is going to try damn hard to abide
by all the 'geasa' listed. I rather suspect that these represent just the tip
of the iceberg though, particularly in the Yelmalion cult. It would not
surprise me to learn that there are all manner of restrictions, customs,
traditions and etiquette that ought to be adhered to. Many of course having
been drawn from myth and legend. Along the lines of,
'It is said that, during the Solitude of Testing, X did Y. Therefore, all good
Yelmalions also do Y.'
'Since Z does Y, he is a good Yelmalion. QED.'
I find the idea of certain units, temples, communities, whatever
adopting/emphasizing certain 'geasa' over others quite appealing.
>Or making the whole thing more social/open, so that *most* Humakti try to
>live by *all* the cult's Geases, even though only some of them would suffer
>terrible punishments for breaking them.
Certainly, the treatment that creates the least fuss in terms of tweaking the
system is to encourage players to adhere to all the restrictions but only to
enforce those received as geasa. Perhaps good roleplaying in respect of this
should then be rewarded by increased likelihood of POW gain rolls (25-Current
POW?) or an increased Luck roll (POWx6?) or faster Rune magic recovery or
increased DI (1d50?). I cannot envision a 'formula' for such rewards since they
would be derived from he GM's appraisal of the players' good roleplaying.
If one is using PDP, however, the concept might well be abstracted in terms of
the Traits & Pasions mechanism.
David Dunham's suggestions for Yelmalio's virtuous traits are:
Chaste, Energetic, Honest, Temperate & Valorous.
It is not hard to envision circumstances in which any of these might be tested
for a Sun Dome Templar.
Errant behaviour might be rewarded with an opposed trait check, crass deviancy
with an automatic increase in the opposed trait (and a visit from the Spirits of
Reprisal, maybe?). For example, lying to an outsider and lying to a brother
Templar. If you were specifically geased never to lie then, not only do you get
an immediate +1 on your Dishonest, but also Monrogh comes a callin'...
Or, there might be an 'Honour Cult Lore' passion on which some sort of spin
might be put?
In my campaign we are working towards some sort of system by which progress in a
cult is a function of one's religious virtue total. If it's above 60, you get
access to Common Divine Magic, 70 gets you Reusable Common and One use Special
whilst above 80 gets you the whole arsenal. Obviously, these levels correspond
to those of Initiate, Acolyte and Priest although we use those terms rather
loosely. I also allow players to subtract one tenth of their religious virtues
total from their 1d100 DI rolls.
We have nothing firm on paper yet; these are more lines of discussion. I fully
appreciate that requiring strict adherence to religious virtues for progression
does not have much basis in fact with regards to RW history, but it makes for a
pleasing enough mechanism for rewarding players who endeavour to roleplay the
requirements of their religions well.
>Sorry about that, it's just a whinge I felt I had to get off my chest.
No worries (as they say in the colonies).
All the best,
Peter
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Orlanth Rex; swamps; Great Zimbabwe; geases
Message-ID: <1994100422...@radiomail.net>
Date: 4 Oct 94 22:23:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6476
Peter Metcalfe wonders
>I have seen the Orlanth Rex subcult in the Orlanth
>writeup in Heroes and for some reason it was dropped from River of
>Cradles
Presumably because Orlanth Rex isn't worshipped in Prax. It's a ruler cult,
and Orlanth isn't the ruling god in Prax.
>As O. Rex was invented by Alakoring Dragonslayer, this raises the
>question of how the Orlanthi organized themselves into SupraClan
>organizations before.
They probably didn't, or only did so rarely. There are a lot of Orlanthi
that can't effectively do so now.
>The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW,
>(note how we like to drain our swamps?)
Most of us come from places where we plant a single crop in huge fields, or
live in concrete cities. I think our views of swamps are very different
from the Pamaltelans. I wish I knew more about the Bayou in Mississippi. I
do know the area surrounding Tenochtitlan [today's Mexico City] was once
quite swampy; apparently it didn't prevent a large number of Aztecs from
living nearby, and obtaining many food resources from the swamp.
>it is hard to find a good book on Golden Zimbabwe as most of them
>are concerned with proving that 'ignorant blacks' could not possibly
>have constructed them. Does anybody have good references?
You've got to be kidding. A book I have, but haven't finished, is "The
Mystery of the Great Zimbabwe," by Wilfrid Mallows. "The author believes
that the Great Zimbabwe was built as a ninth-century prison camp for black
slaves before they were deported to the Middle East. His theory differs
substantially from most current explanations."
[One of the articles he cites is entitled "Sofala and the S.E. African Iron
Age." We know the Turtle Goddess played an important role in Glorantha, but
apparently she influenced Africa as well.]
Nick Brooke proposes
>Or making the whole thing more social/open, so that *most* Humakti try to
>live by *all* the cult's Geases, even though only some of them would suffer
>terrible punishments for breaking them.
That's how I view it. But how is that different from the situation as written?
>if you rewrote Chalana Arroy
>(for example) to say that "all Healers must take a Geas to harm no living
>being"
But that's exactly what they do. Well OK, it's a vow, but there's little
difference between them, except that a geas is imposed by someone else and
a vow is self-sworn.
(In my Ralios campaign, one character just handed all his first aid
supplies to another character before visiting Soothing Touch's Grove, for
fear of possibly violating one of his geases: Never use healer's tools in a
sacred grove in Sea season.)
---------------------
From: jc...@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (Chris Wehman)
Subject: Dirkar the Betrothed
Message-ID: <1994100422...@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
Date: 4 Oct 94 14:29:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6477
From the Desk of Dirkar Sunspear of Yelm the Warrior
Near Garhound
Fire Season, Harmony Week, Wildday 1615
Addressed to Lars Smithson
Flintnail Temple
Big Rubble
Dear Lars Smithson,
As you may well already know, I am to be betrothed to the daughter
of Duke Raus. It seems that my father and mother have finally chosen a
bride for me in the Dara Happan tradition. I was wondering if you would
accompany me on the trip down to Fort Raus, as it is rather dangerous to
traverse near the North Bog. There will be other companions as well, you
see. Pleurius Maximus, the son of the Carmanian exile, should be joining
us, if he can be torn away from his studies. Also, the Agimori who was on
our shield push team, Hunts Wisely, should be joining us also. He mentioned
something to me about avoiding tribal women or something, but I do not
understand his primitive customs, and it is probably for the best that I
don't. Also, the half-file of militiamen that I command will be
accompanying us down, as I will perform the requisite hazia-patrol on the
way. Ohh, that reminds me, you probably didn't know that I had been
conscripted to the militia. As you might expect, it did not take long
before I was leading my own half-file. The infernal Sun Dome tactics. I
believe that a mix with calvary would be a more effective option, but it
has something to do with a silly bargain with the primatives.
I want to voice my concerns about this betrothal, as it seems
rather strange that I, the son of a Dara Happan soldier and wine maker,
might come to marry the daugther of a Duke. I bet she is sight to
behold(cringe). The Duke himself seems to be an industrious chap, though I
have never understood the ancestor worshiping members of Dara Happan
society. Then again, I left when I was twelve. I had hoped to be
betrothed to one of the more influential members of the Sun Dome, but I
guessed that this might not happen, after the Junior Shield Push crown was
taken from us for having a disguised female on our team. I guess to whom I
am married does not matter anyway. Well, write me back and tell me whether
you can go. I'm really not sure if you can read. No matter.
Yelm rules through purity,
Dirkar
---------------------
From: mmor...@VNET.IBM.COM (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
Subject: CA/nonCA resurrexion; geases
Message-ID: <1994Oct4.1...@vnet.ibm.com>
Date: 5 Oct 94 01:45:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6478
*** Reply to note of Tue, 4 Oct 94 09:16:22 +0100
*** by RuneQues...@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Simon Lipscomb gave what, for me, was an excellent description of how
resurrexion should be played: Common for those societies that view
death as a bad thing, rare for those that view death as a good thing.
I think Dave Cordes' ideas can be added to make sure that each GM plays
resurrexion as common or as rare as s/he likes. If resurrexion is
common for a certain group of people, then it's up to the GM to decide
just how common.
And now we just need a rules mechanism ... I think Dave is spot on
when he says it should be up to the GM. Let the rules say "This spell
is to be modified in its availability by the GM based on whether s/he
wants this spell to be common or rare" for some of the more powerful
spells, like resurrexion. Most spells will be as common as they are
now, based on the cult, but some could be -- should be -- modified by
each GM.
I also want to add Nick Brooke's dictum that the GM never cheats. Let
each GM decide how to run his/r game and all will be well with the world.
Oh that it be so ...
Also Nick talks about geasa. I agree that any cult that has them ought
to make sure *everyone* follows them, even if they don't have them.
Otherwise, the geased-ones will be revered or scorned out of turn. In
games I've played in, my Humakti and Yelmalions respected all geasa,
because we could get them one day. That doesn't means forfeiting armour
etc before we had to, or not talking ever ... it does mean that the
Humakti don't lie (bad habit anyway), don't ambush, don't use poison,
etc.
But geasa are different than the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments. Those
are the Law, no matter what -- geasa are only Law if you have them. I
liken receipt of gifts/geasa as taking of orders in the Catholic or
Anglican Church. You must have greater piety to receive them, but also
take more responsibility. As you rise in the cult hierarchy, you must
show yourself to be more pious -- more gifts/geasa.
Cults that don't have gifts/geasa will probably scoff at those that do.
But their members must also show piety as they rise in the ranks --
but in other ways. That's probably why cults with gifts/geasa have
less Rune/Divine Magic available (am I overstepping my bounds yet?).
Finally, I second Alex's plea for Free Int 8 in English. My German is
better than 1%, but not at the 70%+ that it should be to read Free Int
without discomfort (like reaching for the dictionary/Woerterbuch every
sentence or so). When, Joerg, when?
Michael
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Morrison IMS Information Development Tieline 8-543-4706
Santa Teresa Lab, San Jose, California (SWS) Phone (408)463-4706
Bitnet ID: MCM at VNET Fax (408)463-4101
Internet ID: MMOR...@VNET.IBM.COM or USIB...@IBMMAIL.COM
IBM Mail Exchange ID: USIB47H4 at IBMMAIL or USIB4MCM at IBMMAIL
X.400 Address: G=mcmgm; S=morrison; P=ibmmail; A=ibmx400; C=us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: ro...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Real Truth (tm) about the Red Moon
Message-ID: <1994100507...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 4 Oct 94 17:13:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6479
This is the absolute truth and final word on what is going on with the
red moon and the glowline. I know it is true, because I heard it from
a guy named sid who is a drinking buddy of the man who cuts Greg
Stafford's hair. This is how it all works....
As you are all aware, we see because of rays of light hitting our
eyes. Most often the rays are reflected by commonplace items about us,
we do not look directly into the sun because the rays are so powerful.
Were we to look at the sun, we would see it, but not for long. Our
eyes would be seared from our audacity.
The red moon, like the sun, is a source of light rays(in this case red
ones). Areas where the rays of the red moon reach are said to be
within the glowline, for the reflection of red light off objects is
noticible from outside the area. At this point in time the red moon is
not all-powerful, so those in the glow may look upon it and see its
glory. Those outside the glowline are not reached by the rays of the
moon (unlike the sun) and therefore cannot gaze upon its splendor.
The worshippers of the red goddess seek to increase the power of the
red moon. When they construct a new temple of the reaching moon the
moon is raised slightly higher in the sky which allows the rays of the
moon to reach a larger area of land. The red moon also shifts towards
the center of the expanded glowline. In addition, the increased
worshippers strengthen the moon and its rays.
Eventually, all the world will have temples and the righteous red moon
will have ascended to it's proper height and location in the center of
the sky. Replacing the old and corrupt sun. By then the red moon will
be so splendid to gaze upon it would mean blindness; as it is now so
with the sun. So look now at its splendor children, for you are the
lucky ones blessed by its view.
eric
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Kitori and Black Arkat
Message-ID: <1994100410...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 5 Oct 94 02:23:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6467
It certainly seems like the discussion of the various Dark
worshipping humans in Kethaela has piqued peoples interest.
Replying to Bernard about the Temple of Black Arkat
>The following deals (to my satisfaction anyway) with several thorny
>questions surrounding the Temple of Black Arkat. In particular, it
>explains (1) why the Temple appears on no map and (2) why it has no Troll
>members.
>
There are an awful lot of Temples that appear on no map! Most of the maps
of Heortland are pretty large scale and thin on detail, so it is no
surprise to me that it appears on no map. The Arkat write up also says that
Arkat temples are rarely larger than shrines, so even presuming that the
House of Black Arkat is a very large temple by Arkati standards, we are
still talking a minor temple. No wonder it doesn't appear on any maps.
I quote the entire official knowledge on the subject of Temple of Black
Arkat, for reference
'The Temple of Black Arkat
In the Holy Country, in the land of Heortland, is the House of
Black Arkat. This is a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its
initiates, and is, in every way, just like the troll cult, except that all
its initiates are human.'
>The Temple of Black Arkat is not a place, but a Society of human Sorcerors
>dedicated to the extirpation of Chaos through wholesale adoption of the
>Way of Darkness as revealed to humanity by Arkat Kingtroll.
I think that it is a place. It may even be that most of its
initiates do not live there, and wander Kethaela, but I do think that it is
a place.
> The Black
>Templars are excessively trollophile:
I like the term Templars. Joerg and I in private conversation have compared
them to the Knights Templar, a warrior cult with many overtones of religion
and mysticism, sorcery, and conspiracy. OK, so that might be a bit hard on
the historical Templars, but you know what I mean.
> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp
>34-35) is their supreme sacrement.
A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well.
(see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods). It seems unlikely to be
common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most
trolls, though.
Zorak Arkat the Black Angel of Death,
>divesting themselves of their humanity the better to fight brute Chaos.
There is no requirment to become a troll to join Zorak Zoran, there are many
human worshippers. I think that the combination of the two is a fairly
common manifestation of Arkat worship, judging by all those places called
Zorakarkat scattered round the world.
>. Their mission is to keep the Chaos Nest in Larnste's Footprint
>from seeping through the Stonewood into the surrounding countryside.
For reasons I will explain later, near the Footprint is exactly
where I think that they AREN'T.
>Zorak Zorani Death Lord pause. Their extensive use of the sorcery spell
>Animate Dead to fight Chaos makes them very unpopular with Humakti.
I know where this bit comes from! So that other people can
understand the sub text of our conversation, Bernard is running a human
Arkati sorcerer in my campaign (I want to playtest RQ4 sorcery), and one
that uses Animate Dead.
However, I do agree. I suspect that the use of Animate Dead is only a
symptom, not a cause. Humakti already distrust them quite enough already -
they hang out with ZZ, and they worship troll Arkat, after his Humakti
betrayal. The use of Animate Dead is consistent with Zorak Zorani
associated sorcerers.
> Trolls
>view this Uz-wanna-be society with secret amusement, but respect its
>anti-Chaos zeal. Obviously, no _real_ Uz would dream of becoming a member.
>
I have a much simpler answer to why no trolls are involved, which also
neatly answers the question of why there are two separate groups of
Darkness worshipping humans in Heortland.
It is simply that I think that the Temple of Black Arkat is not
near the Troll Woods, and not too close to the Shadow Plateau, and thus has
no trolls in it simply because it is not near any trolls. It could well be
a relic of when the Only Old One ruled.
>NB: reference to Angels above stems from my conviction that the Kitori
>are Henotheists -- and hence capable of living side by side w/ trolls
>whose Orlanth-unfriendly gods are conveniently incorporated into the
>rubric of Malkionism as dutiful servants of the Invisible God.
>
Definately disagree here. Apart from the wisdom of adding yet
another group of henotheists to the Kethaela area (as pointed out by
someone else, the number of Westerners is getting out of hand).
The general concensus (at least Joerg and I and Sandy agree) is
that the two races live side by side due to the sacred marriage of their
leaders. They are divine magic users, and the reason that they can combine
troll unfriendly gods with the Orlanth pantheon is that they do not revere
Orlanth himself that much, but see Argan Argar as the more common deity.
Thus the Troll Kygor Litor Queen has no problem with allying herself to an
Argan Argar King, and the Ernaldans simply revere Argan Argar as foremost
husband protector. No Henotheism necessary, I'm glad to say.
There are Arkati among the Kitori, though. They exist in roughly
the same proportions as among the trolls of the area, which is to say a
very small percentage. Of the small number of Arkat worshippers, though, a
large %age are professional sorcerers (Joerg and I disagree on what %age,
but at least 10% or so, I think higher), and another large proportion are
part of the household of a professional sorcerer. Human Arkati are probably
almost as common as troll Arkati among the Kitori (who have had a long time
to get used to the idea). Most of them will be Argan Argar worshippers, at
least among the humans (the trolls are probably mostly just Kygor Litor),
but there is probably a significant minority of Zorak Zorani anti-chaos
fanatics, given the closeness of the Rubble.
BTW note the great strength of the Argan Argar cult - and
conveniently situated on or near the major trade routes from Sartar to
Heortland. Very convenient.
Another thing worth noting is there is one famous troll from the
Hero Wars period, described as being from the south, which presumably means
the troll woods, so probably a Kitori. He is Obash Broos-smasher, a
runelord with an intelligent sylph for an allied spirit! He is an Argan
Argar cultist as well as a KL worshipper, friendly to human Argan Argari,
and his family is described as holding the roads to the south, and as
raiding Sartar (and Lunars in Sartar) often.
Cheers
Dave
>Later,
>~Barney
>--
>Bernard Langham . lan...@cougar.multiline.com.au . Perth, Western Australia
>
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6480: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Living in wetlands
6481: lipscomb = lips...@vax.ox.ac.uk
- non CA resurrection
6482: Vingkot = Vin...@aol.com
- non-Chalana Arroy resurrection
6483: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Yelmalion armouring geases
6484: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994,
6485: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: Shamans&Resurrect
6486: Mike.Dickison = Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
- Help wanted with Karse and Esrolia
6487: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: Wizards v. Sorcerers
6489: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Resurrection debate, again
6490: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- TradeTalk = Free INT in English
6491: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Zorakarkat
6492: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994, part 2
6493: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994, part 2
6494: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- Mostly pamaltela...
6495: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Recent Digests
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Living in wetlands
Message-ID: <_5978_Wed_Oct__5_08:56:49_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 5 Oct 94 04:54:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6480
re: ddunham in rq-id 6476
>I do know the area surrounding Tenochtitlan [today's Mexico City] was
once
>quite swampy; apparently it didn't prevent a large number of Aztecs
from
>living nearby, and obtaining many food resources from the swamp.
The Aztecs practiced a specialized form of agriculture in the wetlands.
They built up connected plots of land like narrow fingers with narrow
canals between them. They raised corn and other crops (gourds, dahlia,
etc.) on the built up beds which they fertilized with mud dredged from
the canals. Fish from the canals were also harvested. The system was
called chinampas or something like that (mesoamerican scholars, please
correct me). It was apparently highly productive. I seem to recall that
they could take off up to 3 crops a year without depleting the land or
needing to fallow. This system was what allowed them to feed one of the
largest cities in the world.
Personally, I have long thought that the ducks in Sartar practiced an
agricultural system a bit like this.
---------------------
From: lips...@vax.ox.ac.uk
Subject: non CA resurrection
Message-ID: <009857EC....@vax.ox.ac.uk>
Date: 5 Oct 94 16:18:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6481
Just a quick reply to the comments that cropped up in response to my post.
Nils points out where Kralorerlan souls go when they die. Fair enough. I don't
know much about Kralorela, but I think we still basically agree that they
wouldn't want to be brought back.
Lewis disagrees about the Malkioni. In the original post I wrote, I mentioned
that heresies might exist that allowed resurrect, but then the system crashed
and I had to start over and wrote a shortened version. I think what I wrote
would hold true for the Rokari, but certainly Aeolians with St CA might allow
it. The Brithini are a seperate case IMO. My impression from the description in
Crucible etc. is that they fear death so much because they don't believe in an
afterlife or that the soul retains its identity upon death. Certainly they
would want a method of resurrection but may not feel it to be possible.
How the Brithini would explain away the fact that primitive savages (in
their eyes) performed resurrection I don't know, but I feel that they would say
that its not the persons original soul inhabiting the body, but some
opportunist spirit-demon-thingy pretending to be that person until it gets a
chance to suck out your eyeballs (or whatever), and thus view "resurrected"
people as possessed and very suspect.
This doesn't explain the quote from Arkat's Saga however. Perhaps the
Brithini _have_ discovered a method of resuerrection. The Zzaburs have had a
long time to ponder over it after all.
Simon Lipscomb
---------------------
From: Vin...@aol.com
Subject: non-Chalana Arroy resurrection
Message-ID: <941005104...@aol.com>
Date: 5 Oct 94 14:48:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6482
Subject: non-Chalana Arroy resurrection.
Hello, Curtis Taylor here.
In X-RQ-ID: 6426 <gera...@imap1.asu.edu> writes:
>I agree that shamans should be able to bring back the dead (but only
>after a struggle). For one thing, a lack of resurrection kind of
>torpedoes non-humans who don't worship/aren't affiliated with
>Chalanna Arroy (what do trolls do? Throw those dead bodies on the
>trollball field?).
Please note the following cults besides Chalana Arroy that provide
resurrect(ion) or resurrect(ion)-type Rune/Divine magic:
RQ 2:
from Cults of Prax:
Daka Fal-Resurrection (one use)
Daka Fal-Incarnate Ancestor (reusable; may permanently bring back
ancestor)
Daka Fal-Seal Spirit (use ?; listed in Appendix I, not in cult description)
Daka Fal-Summon (Specific) Ancestor (reusable; ancestor summoned
may have a resurrection type spell)
Seven Mothers-Resurrection (reusable)
Eiritha-Seal Spirit (one use)
Aldrya(The Gardeners)-Recover Spirit (reusable) and all special Daka
Fal spells
Aldrya(Elder Sister)-Recover Spirit (one use) and all special Daka
Fal spells (all reusable spells available for one use only)
Good Shepherd-Seal Spirit (use ?)
Issaries-(through Spell Trading Rune spell)
from Cults of Terror:
various of these slimy cults have gross ways to get access to
Resurrection magic
from the Trollball rules in Trollpak:
"Trolls killed in play do not learn from the experience, but they are
automatically ressurected by the god of the game after they are taken
off-field."
from Kyger Litor cult description from Trollpak:
"The cult of Kyger Litor is intimate with that of Daka Fal. The priestess
are urged to become priests of Daka Fal and to gain access to the many
Summon spells."
from Zorak Zoran cult description from Trollpak:
"True worshippers of Zorak Zoran have no fear of death."
"Worshippers of this god expect their only funeral rite to be a Create
Zombie spell."
RQ 3:
cults printed in various sources:
Aldrya(The Gardeners)-Resurrect(ion) (one use)
Daka Fal-Resurrect (one use)
Daka Fal-Summon Ancestor (reusable; ancestor summoned may have
a resurrect type spell)
Daka Fal-Incarnate Ancestor (reusable; may permanently bring back
ancestor)
Issaries-(through Spell Trading Rune spell)
Thanatar-(don't ask)
Yelm-Resurrect (one use)
from Kyger Litor cult description:
"The cult of Kyger Litor is intimate with that of Daka Fal. The priestess
are urged to become priests of Daka Fal and to gain access to the many
Summon spells."
from Zorak Zoran cult description:
"True worshippers of Zorak Zoran think nothing of death."
"Worshippers of this god expect their only funeral rite to be a Create
Zombie spell."
Note that a shaman in RQ 3 may bind spirits and force them to cast
any Divine magic that the spirit knows (including Resurrect-type
Divine magic). Shamanistic cults include:
Aldrya
Aranea
Bagog
Daka Fal
Gorakiki
Hsunchen (Hykim/Mikyh) cults
Hungry Ghost (Cult of the Cannibals)
Kyger Litor
Pamalt
Also note that some of the RQ 2 sources have not been converted
to RQ 3, and are probably going to be similar when they are converted,
thus expanding the RQ 3 list above.
--Curtis Taylor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stick with me, I'll make you a repo wife.
Send your repos to <vin...@aol.com>.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Yelmalion armouring geases
Message-ID: <_4242_Wed_Oct__5_11:53:05_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 5 Oct 94 07:52:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6483
Nils W in rq-id 6466 about geases (geasa?)
> Why would Yelmalio want to impose geases on his
>devoted worshippers which make them worthless in combat?
My best guess about this is as follows:
Yelmalions at key points in their career undergo minor heroquests, and
their geases are apointed by the consequences of the quest. One common
theme in Yelmalio is the sequence of combats at the Hill of Gold, where
he loses bits of his power to Orlanth and others. In the minor version
these could easily be pieces of armour that are lost in combat or stolen
by victorious opponents. Such a loss would then become a ritual
obligation for the Yelmalion for the rest of his life.
This interpretation opens a new possibility. If, in a subsequent ritual,
the Yelmalion managed to take back a corresponding piece of armour, then
the obligation would no longer exist.
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994,
Message-ID: <941005180...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 5 Oct 94 04:03:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6484
Nils
>Kralorelans in good standing with society get _out of_
>reincarnation.
Technically, Kralorelans believe in the dragonewt philosohy
of "progression". They do believe that good Kralori that have
mastered their earthly lives go to Vithela, ultimately to continue
this progression and expansion of capacity.
Peter
>The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW,
>(note how we like to drain our swamps?)
There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it.
There are swamp Arabs along the coast of the Red Sea, who have reed
boats and hunt marsh boars. There are the bayou folk of Louisiana.
There are the Seminole swamp indians of the Everglades. And there are
many many other examples.
I stick by my statement that the Doraddi do NOT think that
the swamps are inherently a bad place. And in fact, that they believe
that the swamps are basically good, though obviously you can get
killed in them. Yes, people who live by swamps may occasionally get
swamp fever. Yes, on rare occasions the goblins may surge forth and
decimate the land. But if you live away from the swamps, you have to
deal with drought, prairie fires, dinosaurs, etc.
Most humans are agricultural, and don't like swamps because
we can drain them to make good agricultural land (at the cost of
losing waterbirds). The Doraddi, non-agricultural, see the value of
the swamp's wildlife and edible plants, and have no need to drain it.
Not that their technology would be up to it in any case. It's not
just coincidence that Lodril's mountains were upthrust to keep out
the jungle, but _not_ the swamp.
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: Shamans&Resurrect
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410052...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 6 Oct 94 01:07:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6485
Regarding what some other contributors wrote yesterday:
> Since one of the primary myths of Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship is the
> separation of the dead from the living, resurrection might be seen
> as sacreligious.
Not really. If you resurrect someone the case can be made that the guy
ought to be alive, so by resurrecting you put him in his proper place.
Thus according to Daka Fal certain persons who are dead may be considered
"accidents" and the judgement he passes on them may be "you go back
to life". That is probably what happens when somebody who seems to be dead
recovers anyway (out-of-body experiences?). The difference when a shaman uses
a Resurrection is that the Gramps of all humanity gets the message that
this is an accident in a rather different way- sort of storming in at the
trials and shouting "stop! that man/woman/baboon is innocent!". Just as a
mundane Judge does not like that, Daka Fal doesn't either, so most
shamans could not do that - only those who specifically serve him,
because he trusts them. (And if he is to continue to trust them, shamans
ought to be be careful with whom they resurrect!) If another shaman would
like to try that, I would most certainly call that a HeroQuest.....
> Rather than trying to resurrect your companion, you should see to it
> that she is sent to the spirit world with the proper ceremonies, and
> that she can be called back if the need arises. "Alas, poor Yorick.
Agree totally
> Because a spirit can't possess a dead body. Binding a spirit into a dead
> body makes a zombie (well, it does in RQ3).
Unless it is a ghoul spirit, in which case you are annoying Humakt in a
different way :-)
> If there was to be a ShamanPak, what I would really like to see is
> just a lot more about the geography and denizens of the spirit plane.
> Basically a less abstract version of spirit travel, and a large number of
> examples of the variety of spirits that exist and how shamans interact with
> them.
I agree heartily. For something similar, although it is non-RQ and
non-Glorantha, I recommend "Shamans" for Ars Magica. The ideas of
shamanistic practices is much more closer to my ideas of how Gloranthan
shamans act than the current rules. Rules-converting should be no
problem, especially if the skills of Spirit Combat and Spirit Travel from
RQ4 or something similar is employed. The "Far Lands" mentioned in the
text even corresponds fairly well with the idea of the Hero Plane, IMO.
> 5) I doubt that Malkioni are so dead set against resurrection as one poster
> implied. Their attitudes are to some extend influenced by the Brithini.
> Brithini abhore DEATH, they hate the concept of aging and also violent death
> above just about everything (except the Vadeli of course). One thing I rememberfrom a sneaky peak at Arkat's Saga was the cry of "Save the Bodies" from the
> ranks of the Brithini army when some of their number were killed and swept out
> to sea. Obviously they have a means of resurrection and would have used it!
Total agreement. Somewhere (the all too short writeup of the Brithini
in Glorantha:Genertela, I think) it is stated that soldiers expect to be
resurrected if they are killed, or at least the responsible Zzabur doing
his very best.
> I tend to adhere to the idea that newly-dead spirits retain their STR, CON
> and DEX for a while after death (though these characteristics are fairly useless
> in the spirit-world and tend to dissolve in a matter of days). If you recovered
> the spirit quickly enough and used a 5-POW binding enchantment on the body
> (to bind the pseudo-ghost's INT POW DEX STR and CON) I think you'd essentially
> restore the person's life.
I don't know. It sounds like a good thought (mixed metaphors are my
hobby), but I feel DEX,STR and CON are part of the body, not the soul.
The already existing mechanism that reduces these characteristics if a
body lies dead for some days IMO fits nicely with the decomposition of
the corpse. A similar thing for the decomposition of the soul? I feel
that there is not only a break between body and soul at death, but the
body looses something in addition, the spark that makes the heart beat.
When you zombiefy a corpse you force the spirit who once inhabited it to
use its magical power to keep the corpse moving - which is why the POW of
a zombie is suppressed (Zombies of the Bind Ghost-type has POW, not
merely MP's as most other undead have). A spirit bound to its old corpse
but free-willed should in my opinion not be entirely alive - not a
zombie, but something undeadish who is moving and breathing by sheer
willpower. A "liche"? >
> In addition, the enchantment might give the shaman some sort of hold over
> the resurrectee - like knowledge of how to break the enchantment thereby
> severing the beneficiery's spirit.
Easy. Any magician, or person with some knowledge of magic, can do that.
As I interpret it, all Enchantments in Glorantha are made by marking the
enchanted object, in this case the guy we are trying to resurrect, with
runes (not necessarily Runes). If the runes are destroyed, the
enchantment is destroyed. So if the skin where the runes are written is
merely slashed, not even deeply, the guy will die and his spirit depart.
I actually likes the idea of a "pseudo-resurrection" where the character
in question is resurrected but does not live a normal life - compare with
someone who has got an artficial heart. Perhaps he would have other
trouble as well - being unable to heal naturally, as well as registering
as "undead" to spells concerned with them, comes to my mind.
Cheers,
Erik.
---------------------
From: Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Help wanted with Karse and Esrolia
Message-ID: <1994100509...@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 6 Oct 94 10:30:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6486
(Henk - this is a re-posting. Arachne Solara ate yesterday's one.)
OK, folks, I'd really appreciate some help here. And we may even start a
useful thread.
My PC group has unexpectedly fragmented and shifted their base from
Kaxtoplose to Karse. They want to reform a new group of traders and
diplomats and get involved with the Lunar/Esrolia standoff (it's Storm
Season 1620).
Now, I'd love for that to happen, and play out some of the events and
battles in King of Sartar, finishing with the Battle of Pennel. I'd
especially like them to meet Harrek again, since his sacking of Kaxtorplose
stopped the previous plot of the campaign.
But I really need to find and make up a lot more information about Karse
and Esrolia before I can do this effectively. All the information I have
is:
G:G,CotHW 2 paras on Esrolia, 1 on Karse
RQ Companion 4 paras on Esrolia
KoS A few pages on events in Esrolia
And a downloaded piece on a Grazer's guide to Esrolia
Firstly: Is there more Official info I've missed?
Secondly: Is there unpublished or gleaned info willing to be shared by
those in the know? (I'm looking at Sandy, Nick, and the Daily's other
scholars)
Thirdly: Since I'm going to be making most of it up regardless, I'd be
very keen to know how each of you have fleshed out Karse and Esrolia in
your own campaigns (I know MOB has done a fair bit on Nochet). I'm most
interested in the mechanics of governing a matriarchal theocracy. At the
moment, I'm just taking a standard civilised theocracy and reversing all
the gender roles, but I'm sure someone like John Hughes could give us more
insights into the complexities. I have a bunch of ideas for the
husband/protector roles I'll post real soon.
For me, the most valuable aspects of the daily are not bickerings over what
to call moose or whether Elmal is "actually" X, Y or Z, but the real game
ideas I get from, for example, the Truestone discussion or Sandy's
morokanth notes. So if anyone has any neat ideas about Esrolia they want to
share, I'm all ears. Hope you can help.
Mike Dickison
adze...@matai.vuw.ac.nz
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: Wizards v. Sorcerers
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410052...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 6 Oct 94 01:30:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6487
Nick Brooke wrote:
> > ... most sensible Wizards know that Evil Sorcerors can cast exactly the
> > same spells as they do.
>
> Yeah, if we're taking "spells" from RQ3's limited list. But certainly not
> if we're talking about the harmonious societal kingdom-enhancing "divine"
> Wizardry that is the Malkioni speciality. Evil Sorcerers could, of course,
> embrace Malkion's Law, and through God's Grace come to possess the same
> powers of blessing and so on that sensible Wizards have. But surely there
> must be a ethical/moral/religious dimension to what GoG presents simply as
> "the Worship Invisible God sorcery spell"?
IMO, the Wizards of the Invisible God considers their wizardry "Divine"
in that it was originally developed under the influence of the Invisible
God. It is just like a tool, and differs from other forms of magic in
that it requires no unclean contact with spirits or gods (which for
non-henotheist Malkioni are only evil or unthrustworthy demons or
sorcerers who made themselves immortal when they lost Solace due to their
wicked ways - remember Humct, Yilm and Worlath?). Still, it is magic, and
all magic is dangerous to your soul, which is the reason only those who
have proved themselves to be pious men learned in the ways of God, either
by birth (Rokari) or proving their merits (Hrestoli), should be allowed
to handle it a great deal. That is, wizards. The ethical dimension comes
in on the subject: Should I use this spell at all? Same thing as a knight
who has to decide how he is to use his sword, a lord how he is to use his
authority, or a peasant how he is to use his working skills. They are all
gifts to mankind from Our Lord The Creator, and they may all be misused.
Just as sinners and heathens and heretics can use swords and rule
unfairly and create things unseemly in the ways of God, they can work
magic - in fact, they do all the time.
(This is probably reheated air, my being new to the Digest, but you never
now)
Cheers,
Erik
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Resurrection debate, again
Message-ID: <H.ea.bVr...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 5 Oct 94 23:45:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6489
I want to add my voice into the chorus that both shamans and sorcerers
have access to Resurrection rituals. We know this for sure from
Brithini sorcerers (Genertela Book p.82: "Resurrection is possible
after ddeath, and even the lowliest peasants expect their sorcerers to
tr it each time one of them dies.").
Shamans are known to travel into the border zone between life and death
to guide spirits back to their bodies. They do so in case of diseases
or curses which cause a soul to leave the body, and probably an
untimely death by violence or accidents will send the unprepared spirit
into this region, too. If the body left by the spirit still (or again)
is inhabitable, I think the shaman ought to be able to guide the spirit
back and force it into the mundane plane again. While I think that some
permanent POW loss ought to be involved, I don't feel there should be a
binding matrix enchantment as a component. Maybe this POW is used to
seal the leak through which the spirit escaped into the Otherworld.
In fact, the Shamanic Resurrection ought to resemble Eiritha's (or
rather the Good Shepherd's) Seal Spirit, once the shaman has found the
spirit of the deceased.
(BTW, is there a RQ3 write-up for the Praxian Eiritha? and for her
Pentian and civilized equivalents? I can't recall any. How shall a RQ3
user without CoP play Praxians?)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: TradeTalk = Free INT in English
Message-ID: <H.ea.Xm&8YG8...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 5 Oct 94 23:45:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6490
Michael Morrison in X-RQ-ID: 6478
> Finally, I second Alex's plea for Free Int 8 in English. My German is
> better than 1%, but not at the 70%+ that it should be to read Free Int
> without discomfort (like reaching for the dictionary/Woerterbuch every
> sentence or so). When, Joerg, when?
Whoa, hold it. We are not going to translate Free INT issue by issue -
little point in reissuing for instance the Spoken Word write-up this soon,
I'd say, or leave this for the threatened "Best of Tales".
TradeTalk will contain only those articles up to date and not previously
issued in English. Some of our articles summarize several articles
previously published in English, so I think a rephrased and abbreviated
version in a new or enlarged context is all right. We could include our
most recent reviews, come to think of that, or an overview over the
RuneQuest material available in German, but I doubt this will interest
the majority of you.
And while I am the only German member of the German RQ Society active on
this list, I am not the only one to work on this project. The current
Free INT editors have a word to say what to put into both zines, and
most decisions are taken between Ingo Tschinke and me.
Right now we have the articles translated for issue one of Tradetalk.
Our translators are native speakers of English - while I can express
myself somewhat fluently in English, my translations into English
are horrible. Ask Nick Brooke...
As far as I can make it out, Tradetalk 1 will contain scenarios and RQ
articles from issues 2 to 4. This low ratio is partially explained by the
fact that in our earlier issues we had quite a lot of translations of
articles from various RQ sources, mostly Tales, and we did review the
recent material _from that time_. Anyone want to read another Sun County
review (apart from MOB)? I wrote one for FI2...
Something I'm still not decided on is whether or how much related
systems to include - our German issues have a bit about Elric and
(in FI8) Elfquest, and we have quite a lot of Cthulhu. In Germany this
mixture sells, I don't know about the English or American market. If
I were still in charge, I'd do something about PenDragon Pass, too,
since it seems to be the second most frequent game system for Glorantha.
And we will definitely try to support the sadly deceased Alternate Earth
niche of RQ, and we will take submissions for rules articles. Whatever
submissions we get in English might make it into Tradetalk as quickly as
into Free INT, since we needn't send it across the Channel twice. Thus
if you have a well thought out rules variant you want to see published,
contact me. Since none of the other 3 RQ magazines have this as a
regular feature, I think we won't hurt anyone's sales. After all, we
distribute 2 of them...
I am not so sure about Gateway RQ - while I have a quite complex game
world, I think it would take up too much space in a magazine.
Ok, this much editorial rambling. I hope that we will get Tradetalk 1
out this year. If you want to read our stuff before, you will have to
do it the hard way. BTW, I don't understand all this fuzz - I read and/or
translate French RQ stuff, too, and my Read French is a meagre 25%.
And a lot of other continental people have to put up with English material,
too, if they want to stay up to date - serves you right to share this
problem once... <g>
If anybody feels he or she can translate German into fluent English, and
will be satisfied with a free issue of the magazine as payment, contact
me, please. I can check for misunderstandings etc, but I can't really do
a fluent translation.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Zorakarkat
Message-ID: <1994100606...@radiomail.net>
Date: 6 Oct 94 06:38:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6491
David Cake says
>There is no requirment to become a troll to join Zorak Zoran, there are many
>human worshippers. I think that the combination of the two is a fairly
>common manifestation of Arkat worship, judging by all those places called
>Zorakarkat scattered round the world.
I know of only one, in East Ralios. Where are there more?
In my East Ralios game, the characters were asking about some old standing
stones. The person they asked didn't know much about them, but knew they
couldn't have been erected by Arkat, because if they had, the king would
have had them pushed over.
---------------------
From: ha...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <5ogRTc...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>
Date: 5 Oct 94 22:18:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6492
subject: High Holy Days
I just sent in my check to get a copy of the Cult's Calendar.
(One of my friends lost my copy.) But since it will be a month
before it gets here, could somebody please look up Ernalda and
Challana Arroy's High Holy Days?
Subject: TOTRM
I have heard a lot about the magazine "Tales of the Reaching
Moon", people seem to be taking articles from it as gospel.
How do I get my little hands on a copy? Are there any back
issues anywhere?
Subject: Dorastor and Eurmal
In Dorastor, does anybody know what aspect of Eurmal would be
appropriate for old Lomi? How many other tricksters could we
expect to be in town? Would they all be of the same aspect,
would they all worship at Lomi's shrine, or would each one be
different and independent? [I have a player that is interested
in becoming a trickster. Will they have to drop their other
cults to join?] I had a nasty thought, ever hear of a Humakti
Trickster? With the trickster's murderer aspect, Strike, BS5,
and Truesword would be nasty...but would it be possible...?
---------------------
From: ha...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 05 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <yNgRTc...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>
Date: 5 Oct 94 22:17:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6493
SUBJECT: Orlanth subcults
Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are. Where
can I find them? Is there a big difference between each one, or is it
more like the difference between Catholic, Episcapalion, and Lutheren?
(Pardon my spelling-long day at work.)
I was reading the write-up on Orlanth and I noticed something odd. Orlanth
and Ernalda aren't associate cults. This doesn't make sense! I allways
figured that since they were married their would be little shrines in each
others temples. Aren't Orlanthi sworn to protect Ernaldans?
I arbitrarily decided that all my male players would start initiated to
Orlanth, and all the female's would be initiated to Ernalda. (And then they
could join a second cult or whatever later, after they learned the world
more.) Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult? Or is
Vinghe Jar (or whatever the red-head's name is) a hero in the Orlanth cult?
SUBJECT: Trickster
How many people have come up with new Trickster spells? The only one I've
heard of is called Trickster Dice. It's a divine spell that lets the fool
roll two D12 instead of two D10 for percentile. Ten's are read as 0's, 11's
as 1's and 12's as 2's. Makes for a little better odds when you are looking
for that special...
Do other people rule that a DI roll of 00 brings in Eurmal? We've allways
played that a critical fumble has the trickster show up and make a deal.
He can't affect the character without permision (because of the compact), but
some players would rather lose their left arm than die. (Or turn blue, or
swear to only use a left handed dagger to parry, or whatever).
Every Uroxi in Dorastor took a look at the blue guy, who explained the
situation. Since none of the Storm Kahns (or any of the goons) detected
chaos. I can't wait till he runs into a Storm Bull that KNOWS he only has
a 5% det chaos. (Or else these guys find out about illumination...!)
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Mostly pamaltela...
Message-ID: <01HHYPTBV...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 7 Oct 94 06:23:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6494
Nils
====
>Peter Metcalfe on Pamaltelan magic:
>>Joerg knows of my view in that they did pratice a distinct form of
>>Rune Magic before the advent of the six legged empire.
>This is very interesting. Please do detail the mechanics.
I'll write it up.
>Peter Metcalfe on architecture:
>>I would choose Zimbabwean architecture as Mesoamerican is already
>>purloined in Dragonewt temples and the Kingdom of ignorance.
>As always I prick up my ears when the east is mentioned. What's this
>about the Kingdom of Ignorance? Where can I find more about their
>architecture (and preferredly other things too)?
Really IMO about the Kingdom of Ignorance. They practice Aztec style
religious ceremonies before the New Kingdom of wisdom and their oldest
beliefs come from pyramids with picture writing on them which is also
a characteristic of Mayan Pyramids. Ergo the Ignorance architetural
styles are (IMO - loosely on factual evidence) based upon the
Mesoamericans.
NB>>And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
NW>Ludicrous is the word. Why would Yelmalio want to impose geases on his
NW>devoted worshippers which make them worthless in combat?
The answer here is that Yelmalio was stripped of his amrs and
armour by Orlanth the BastardFace with the result that Yelmalio
became known as the Cold Sun and spent the rest of the heroquest
frantically memorizing martial arts lessons he'd skipped before he
met ZZ.
IMO the armouring restriction should also apply to clothes giving a
new impetus for Yelmalions to go around wrestling in the Greek Style
(Pankration?)
Jardine
=======
>One thing I remember
>from the ranks of the Brithini army when some of their number were killed and
>swept out to sea. Obviously they have a means of resurrection and would have
>used it!
Brithini Sidebar Genertela book. Obviously the God fearing Malkioni don't
have it.
David D.
========
PM>>The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW,
PM>>(note how we like to drain our swamps?)
>Most of us come from places where we plant a single crop in huge fields, or
>live in concrete cities. I think our views of swamps are very different
>from the Pamaltelans. I wish I knew more about the Bayou in Mississippi. I
>do know the area surrounding Tenochtitlan [today's Mexico City] was once
>quite swampy; apparently it didn't prevent a large number of Aztecs from
>living nearby, and obtaining many food resources from the swamp.
Tenochtiltan's swampy areas were heavily irrigated to provide perishables
for the humungous city. Non perishable foodstuffs (no! not human beings -
maize!) were shipped in from outside. Although Tenochtilan probably was
swampy to start of with, the heavy irrigation eradictaed the former habitat.
As for Doraddi thinking the swamps are good, this comes close to the
Union view in the Civil war were they put black soldiers in the forts
near the swamps on the basis that they were more acclimatized to it.
They weren't and suffered thereby from the inevitable Malaria and
Yellow fever. Larges parts of Africa are useless for cattle cultivation
because of the Tsetse fly.
This I suppose highlights the need for slightly more realistic disease
rules.
Sandy
-----
>HOWEVER, in Pamaltela, I'm not sure that they make the distinction
>between Earth Powers and Fire Powers that is made in Genertela.
>If you were to go up to
>up to a Pamalt worshiper and ask him to classify his pantheon's gods
>into Earth gods and Fire gods he'd think you were crazy. It would be
>like asking an Orlanthi to divvy up his own pantheon into Wind Gods
>and Air Gods.
Like this theory a lot. I am of the belief that the God learner elemental
theory is really reified (or a matter of definition).
In my attempts to draw up a cultural based alchemy system, (a lot of alchemy
baggage really reflected what the practioner thought the universe operated)
I was thinking that the Pamalteleans/Foritians would hold that there is only
one type of matter. This matter had a moral dimension which at the bottom
scale was called filth and at the top was called fire. The aim of every god
fonritian was to worship ompalam and purge yourself of filth (ie rebellous
desires for starters) so that you would rise up to become a higher being when
you died.
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Recent Digests
Message-ID: <941006072724_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Oct 94 07:27:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6495
Pardon me while I enthuse.
Today's two Digests really hit the spot:
I loved Bryan's spirit cults! Especially the felicitous name Monalli, which
straightens out a whole load of problems. And the 'real' summoning rituals.
This is good stuff.
Sandy's explanation of Pamalt also struck a real chord:
> ... Second-best at fighting, second-best at magic, second-best at
> hunting, second-best at romance, but no one else is second-best at
> so many different things.
That rings bells for me. As did:
> Pamalt asked Bolongo, and he said, "No, O Pamalt." But Pamalt did not
> let him explain why.
Tee hee! What a fine myth you tell, Mr P.
====
Nick
====
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6496: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Dead Kralorelans & some more
6497: davidc = (David Cake)
- Kitori and stuff
6498: davidc = (David Cake)
- Zorakarkat
6499: watson = (Colin Watson)
- Walking corpses; Shamans
6500: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
- red moon rising
6501: langham = (Bernard Langham)
- Black Arkat, Kitori
6502: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- Swamps and Orlanth
6503: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Brithini resurrection
6504: gerakkag = gera...@imap1.asu.edu
- Non-CA Resurrection
6505: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Resurrection; Karse
6506: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Aeolian Heretic speaks
6507: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Return of Geas
6508: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994
6509: aweill = (Andrew J. Weill)
- Re: Volume 11, no 04, part 1 of 2: Lesser Faiths of Prax
6510: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994, part 2
6511: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Orlanth subcults; Aztec swamps; Esrolia
6512: Argrath = Arg...@aol.com
- Ohlson's questions; disease
---------------------
From: ni...@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Dead Kralorelans & some more
Message-ID: <941006092...@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 6 Oct 94 11:28:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6496
Nils Weinander writing
Simon Lipscomb:
> Nils points out where Kralorerlan souls go when they die. Fair enough. I don't
> know much about Kralorela, but I think we still basically agree that they
> wouldn't want to be brought back.
Yes we agree. I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my posting.
Sandy:
>>Kralorelans in good standing with society get _out of_
>>reincarnation.
> Technically, Kralorelans believe in the dragonewt philosohy
>of "progression". They do believe that good Kralori that have
>mastered their earthly lives go to Vithela, ultimately to continue
>this progression and expansion of capacity.
Well, since they progress out of Glorantha as known by everyone else,
I see that as getting out of the reincarnation cycle which seems to
exist in sky pantheon worshippers' thinking.
_____
Yelmalio armouring geases:
Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.
_____
Ignorance architecture:
Peter Metcalfe:
> Really IMO about the Kingdom of Ignorance. They practice Aztec style
> religious ceremonies before the New Kingdom of wisdom and their oldest
> beliefs come from pyramids with picture writing on them which is also
> a characteristic of Mayan Pyramids. Ergo the Ignorance architetural
> styles are (IMO - loosely on factual evidence) based upon the
> Mesoamericans.
Add in some roman style amphitheaters for the ritual arena combats (or
slaughterings). Oh, and the analogy makes perfect sense. I have a
vague reminiscence from the daily a year ago or so where someone came
up with the idea of inverted pyramids for the Ignorants. Am I remembering
wrong or does someone else recollect this?
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Zorakarkat
Message-ID: <1994100613...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:33:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6498
Err... ummm.... shuffles feet embarrasedly. I can only find one
reference to Zorakarkat as well, the one in East Ralios. I had a feeling
that there was at least one other, somewhere in Maniria, but it appears
that I was thinking of Kaxtorplose.
Um... sorry.
Dave
---------------------
From: wat...@csd.abdn.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Walking corpses; Shamans
Message-ID: <1994100614...@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 6 Oct 94 16:21:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6499
____
Erik:
> > I tend to adhere to the idea that newly-dead spirits retain their STR, CON
> > and DEX for a while after death (though these characteristics are fairly
> > useless in the spirit-world and tend to dissolve in a matter of days).
>
> I don't know. It sounds like a good thought [...], but I feel DEX,STR and
> CON are part of the body, not the soul.
But think of it like this: DEX & STR are what allow a creature to
move around and interact with the physical world; CON gives the ability
to respire - breathing, eating etc. Upon death these faculties depart
from the body immediately. (Good thing too, otherwise corpses of the recently
dead could wander about mindlessly (with no INT or POW) as do animate
Skeletons.)
But corpses don't breathe or move around; they don't have STR or DEX or CON.
The question is where do these faculties go? I suggest they depart with the
spirit, and if the spirit is recovered then they return with the spirit.
_
> > If there was to be a ShamanPak[...]
> For something similar, although it is non-RQ and
> non-Glorantha, I recommend "Shamans" for Ars Magica.
Having recently acquired this supplement I heartily second Erik's sentiment.
"Shamans" contains some very evocative descriptions of the Spirit World
- not the grey and featureless place RQ3 describes.
And remarkably good value for 8 quid or so.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: SMI...@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: red moon rising
Message-ID: <01HHYBFN7...@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 6 Oct 94 05:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6500
- Eric Rowe comments on the light/view of the Red Moon
I assume this was in response to David Dunham's complaint (shared by
myself) that the Red Moon should be visible beyond the Glowline, if it is
indeed in or contesting the Middle Air.
Though Eric's comments are reasonable, I still don't believe they prove
that the Red Moon can only be viewed within the Glowline. Remember that
the Glowline and the Temples of the Reaching Moon didn't exist until Yara
Aranis was created in the Fourth Wane. This would imply that you couldn't
see the Red Moon from the time the goddess rose into the sky until Sheng
Seleris came on the scene! Yet the First Inspiration of Moonson claims she
did rise into the sky, she could view her children on the earth, and I
would surmise that she could in turn be seen.
A further implication is that if you were outside the Glowline you wouldn't
know what day of the week it was and whether your magic would have any
effect.
If you look at the map in Codex #2 showing the location of the Middle Air,
which the Red Goddess is supposed to be contesting, then I think it makes
a very difficult argument to say it can't be seen from elsewhere outside
the Glowline. If she's in the Lower Air, fine then there are mountains
that would block the view of her, but I've never heard or seen anything to
suggest this.
Harald
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Swamps and Orlanth
Message-ID: <01HHZ2GHM...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 7 Oct 94 12:24:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6502
Sandy
=====
>>The marshes are not exactly the healthiest places to live in the RW,
>>(note how we like to drain our swamps?)
> There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it.
>There are swamp Arabs along the coast of the Red Sea, who have reed
>boats and hunt marsh boars. There are the bayou folk of Louisiana.
>There are the Seminole swamp indians of the Everglades. And there are
>many many other examples.
I'm not too sure about these examples exemplfying Swamps are good.
The Bayou folk obviously have the technology to mitigate the worst
of the swamps side effects such as mosquito netting.
The others tribes as far as I am aware stick within the swamp because
it's their home turf and can easily defend it and are acclimatized.
Other tribes have not taken over the place (the Marsh Arabs of the
Shatt-al-Arab are very old) because they do not wish to live there
because of its 'worthlessnes' and the difficulty of invading it. I
have never heard of, for instance, of bedouins invading the swamp
nor marsh arabs emigrating to the desert.
As a result, I would normally posit the existance of swamp humans
in the minor swamps such as the churlwe marsh (Yes, I know there's
three kingdoms in the sozganjio.) The only problem I have with this
is how much competition would the swamp humans face from the goblins?
IMO, the swamp humans would have to compete with the goblins for
resources which is on par with a praxian trying to settle in Dagori
Inkarth. If a tribe lives outside the swamp and hunts/raids it
periodically, the swamp humans and the goblins would feel under
pressure and retailate accordingly. thus IMO, a expedition into
the swamps for hunting could easily be transformed as a raid into
the scummy slime sucking catfish people. This IMO would transform the
perception of the marshes in the Doraddi perspective to something less
than flattering.
Hugh
====
>SUBJECT: Orlanth subcults
>Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
>and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are. Where
>can I find them? Is there a big difference between each one, or is it
>more like the difference between Catholic, Episcapalion, and Lutheren?
Having brought this up, I shall respond. The Orlanth Writeup in River of
Cradles has Orlanth Adventerous embodied in the form of the wind lord
whereas Orlanth Thunderous is the Storm Voice or Priest. This is the
standard writeup (which many people may or may not agree with).
A Wind Lord seeks to be an embodiment of Orlanth. Since many of the
myths tell of Orlanth adventuring, the Wind Lord may adventure a lot.
A lot more myths tell of Orlanth listening to his charges and thus he
goes and beats up the guilty. Thus the Wind Lord is almost always
found in charge of the clan as he is responsible for social justice.
The Storm Voice act as Messenger of the King of the Gods and act
accordingly. Some God Learners have speculated they are actually
the remants of the old Umath Cult who were absorbed by the Orlanth
Cult. Just as Umath is Orlanths dad and so Orlanth owes him filial
piety and so the Wind lord is subserviant to the Storm voice. For
this impious learning they were seized and beheaded.
Since the Wind Lord is responsible to the Storm Voice and the Storm
Voice is prone to random acts of religious estascy (such as climbing
up tall mountains and jumping off 'to be with the wind'), it is clear
why Orlanthi civilization always collapses into barbarianism.
To counteract this, mainly to provide an effective response to the EWF,
the Cult of Orlanth Rex (detailed in Heroes volume i, issue 3 or 4) was
invented which made the Storm Voices responsible to Tribal Kings who were
convienently selected from the ranks of the clan chiefs (and Wind Voices).
This is found in Ralios, Peloria and Maniria. Dorasar may have abandoned
this when he left to settle new pavis.
Other cults of Orlanth known are (no writeups alas!):
Orlanth Dragonfriend: An EWF Cult. Probably defunct as the EWF magic to
sustain it no longer is available. The main thing known about it was that
one could perform both storm and EWF magics without being marked for
destruction by the wind fists.
Orlanth New Wind: A cult set up by Lokaymadon during the Empire of Light.
It is dead now but one wonders why the Lunar Empire hasn't tried to
ressurect this cult to integrate orlanthi belief better into the Empire?
Orlanth Victorious: An obscure Cult lorded over by Argrath in Pavis.
Argrath is stated to be a Wind Voice so perhaps this cult allows him
to access the four magic weapons?
Invisible Orlanth: A Carmanian Cult. The benefits of its worship is
unknown as the Aeolians practice henotheism without contacting this
spirit. I would postulate a form of saintly blessing.
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Brithini resurrection
Message-ID: <_3040_Thu_Oct__6_12:13:37_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 6 Oct 94 08:13:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6503
I have the impression that the Brithini do not actually believe in the
soul the way other Gloranthan cultures do. So they probably do not think
of what they are doing as resurrection any more than we do when someone
is revived after a brief period of "death". They probably just look at
it as a very difficult healing.
In the first few minutes after death, they probably use techniques that
resemble our own resuscitation techniques. Stabilize the patient by
using healing spells. Then use artificial respiration and heart massage
(they may use special magics like Animate Air and Animate Water to force
the flow of air and blood) to get the system running again.
Patients who have been dead longer may require much more specialized
magics to fix problems related to anoxia and eventual tissue decay.
Obviously it becomes much more difficult as time passes until it
eventually becomes effectively impossible to resuscitate someone.
---------------------
From: gera...@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Non-CA Resurrection
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410061048.A9242-0100000@general2>
Date: 6 Oct 94 04:22:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6504
Chris Taylor rightly points out that oodles of Shamanic cults (or cults
with shamanic ties) have divine magics that allow for resurrection --
i.e., Daka Fal, Eiritha, Aldrya, Kyger Litor, etc. I'm not sure about
Seven Mom's shamanic links -- eh, it's probably some gross slimy chaos
ability. :)
However, I've gotten used to GMs that drastically limited the ability of
shamans to obtain divine magic in RQ3. I myself have never really liked
the idea that shamans just power up the ol' rune magic link and <zap>
Daka Fal/Horned Man/Great Grampa Bob/Whatever resurrects yon dead
familial member.
Ergo -- since there is a lot of evidence in both RQ2 and RQ3 that shamans
_can_ obtain divine resurrection, albeit often in one-use forms, it doesn't
unbalance the game to allow Shamans to resurrect through a different
mechanism. I prefer to use a "shamanic mechanism." Three reasons for this.
First, even though the _end result_ is similar, I (and my players) like it
when the bells ring, lights flash and spirits go "boo!" -- it's a way to
emphasize the difference between divine magics and shamanic spirit
practices. It can allow for some interesting roleplay, too -- the only
person to be resurrected by a shaman so far decided to go NPC and become
an apprentice...
Second, we see Aldrya, Kyger Litor, etc encouraging worship of Daka Fal,
I'm assuming both worship varients/sub-cults/whatever. (Horned Troll for
the latter? Thorny Bush for the former?). Ergo, I'm not sure that the
shamanism here is powered by the god in question -- with the caveat that
the deity is the original ancestor. So who is giving the "divine"
ability?
Third, I like the way it fits into the cultures. Sure, if I happen to be
the local leader of a troll clan, I just whip out the ol' RQ2 rules and
exclaim "Waitaminute! Issaries can spell trade!" then run out and join
said cult. You _can_ still obtain resurrection with a kind GM; i.e., you
can always trot down to to a CA temple. But I prefer the idea that
trolls/elves/hsunchen "take care of their own" instead of going to an
alien pantheon.
Anyway, thanks for all the comments on non-CA resurrection -- some of
them have been really insightful.
*Hey Look! The Sigfile is finally working*
==========================================================================
James Frusetta "Close the city and tell the people that
Arizona State University Trolls are coming to call;
Box 871502 Death and darkness are rushing foward to
Tempe, AZ 85281-1502 take a bite from the walls;
AS...@asuvm.inre.asu.edu When you listen to Yelm -- Trolls overwhelm."
-- Black Sabbath (the Gloranthan version)
==========================================================================
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Resurrection; Karse
Message-ID: <941006183223_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Oct 94 18:32:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6505
_____
Simon on Malkioni:
> The Brithini are a seperate case IMO. My impression from the description
> in Crucible etc. is that they fear death so much because they don't
> believe in an afterlife or that the soul retains its identity upon death.
> Certainly they would want a method of resurrection but may not feel it to
> be possible.
I can confirm that the Brithini in Greg's MS of "Arkat's Saga" definitely
have access to Resurrection. It seems ludicrous to categorise this as the
Divine magic spell rearing its ugly head again. Retreating Brithini troops
would carry home the heads of their dead comrades, so the sorcerers could
regrow the bodies and resurrect them. The head's the most efficient load.
As for Shamans only getting Resurrect from "spirit cults", this is IMHO a
grotesque God Learnerisation. The shaman is dealing with a "Great Spirit",
but because the God Learners have decreed that this is in fact a "God" it
doesn't count as bona fide Shamanism?? Typical semantic twaddle.
_____________
Mike Dickison on Karse:
A dozen people will tell you this, but:
> Firstly: Is there more Official info I've missed?
Yep. There was a 1986 Chaosium publication called "Carse: Urban Aid for
Fantasy Roleplaying" (great title, guys!), a non-Gloranthan city write-up
that was used in Chaosium's house campaign as the basis for the city of
Karse, in much the same way as Thieves' World's Sanctuary was used as a
model for Refuge. It's a damn' good supplement by Midkemia, the people who
wrote "Cities", and should be relatively easy to Gloranthify. If nothing
else, you should steal the street plans and perspective maps of the city.
As for being "Official", who cares? It's your world, after all.
But Karse isn't in Esrolia; it's "Lower Heortland" (down off the plateau).
The culture is more Western than you'll find in the high lands, on account
of all that sea trade. Yeah, there'll inevitably be some Esrolian influence
-- but I doubt there'd be a lot. OTOH, it's your game!
____
Erik on Malkioni:
> The ethical dimension comes in on the subject: Should I use this spell
> at all?
Not that question: I presume a Malkioni Wizard would think it appropriate
to cast 'Worship Invisible God' at services. The ethical question is over
whether an Evil Sorcerer could cast exactly the same spell by performing
the same ritual. There are real-world arguments which suggest he could do
so, incidentally: but nobody was interested last time I brought these up.
__________
Tradetalk:
> Our translators are native speakers of English - while I can express
> myself somewhat fluently in English, my translations into English
> are horrible. Ask Nick Brooke...
Joerg writes extremely well in English, and I have told him so often. His
only problem is that after receiving a corrected idiomatic text for one of
his articles, he bins it and continues to work from the old version...
_______________
Richard Ohlson:
> High Holy Days
Ernalda: Clayday of Fertility Week in Earth Season. The whole week is a
great fun holy time almost anywhere in the world: Harvest Festival!
Chalana Arroy: Second Week of Sacred Time, presumably with the high spot on
Wildday (which is her usual Holy Day)
> I have heard a lot about the magazine "Tales of the Reaching Moon",
> people seem to be taking articles from it as gospel. How do I get my
> little hands on a copy? Are there any back issues anywhere?
If you're in the US, email David Gadbois and ask him for information. (Mind
you, he's probably calling you already...). He can be reached on:
> Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
> and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are. Where
> can I find them? Is there a big difference between each one?
The fullest-ever Orlanth write-up was in "Heroes" magazine many years ago.
This had details for O.Rex not available elsewhere. A slightly-shorter
version is in River of Cradles, a recent Avalon Hill supplement; it omits
O.Rex, but is otherwise pretty comprehensive.
As for the others, broadly speaking O.Adventurous is the god of Wind Lords
and O.Thunderous the god of Storm Voices. In some places they form rival
cults, but usually they're just different aspects of the same religion.
Adventurous is more, well, adventurous, emphasising martial prowess and
heroic derring-do, while Thunderous is a more socially responsible cult.
Adventurous gets Wind Words and Shield and Magic Weapons, while Thunderous
gets to call storms and hurl thunderbolts. And Rex gets to lead tribes.
> I was reading the write-up on Orlanth and I noticed something odd.
> Orlanth and Ernalda aren't associate cults.
Which write-up is that? They certainly are; but if there are no Ernaldans
around (i.e. in Prax), it's a bit of a moot point.
> Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult?
If it suits your game, this can be so. Some people would call Vinga the
"cult of Orlanth Adventuress" - i.e. women who join Orlanth are *really*
joining Vinga, but nobody worries too much about this. I think Orlanth is
for males only, but I know some people out there get upset when the real
world impinges on Glorantha so I'm usually not dogmatic about it. As for
Yelm, now...
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Aeolian Heretic speaks
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 6 Oct 94 18:50:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6506
In-Reply-To: <941005081...@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
> From: JAR...@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
> Also remember the Aolian heratics who allow St CA to function in their
> midst. I doubt whether they would have accepted her unique gifts if
> they came from a culture that was fervently against resurrection.
Having spent some time as an Aeolian heretic I would dispute the idea
that we have a western mindset. Now it could just be that Nick Brooke's
version for How the West Was One (I'll try not to give anything important
away) diverges from the standard, but the standard doesn't seem to exist
in Greg's published writings anyway.
The Aeolians are not Westerners. They have an Orlanthi view of the caste
systems, they regard the Orlanthi pantheon as saints of their church,
while giving St Rokar, St Dromar and St Geralnt Flamesword pretty short
short shrift. basicly they are culturally Theylan's, who have altered the
worship of the Invisible God to fit their culture.
Just because we heretics regard St CA, the white lady, who the Invisible
God gave the miraculous powers of healing and ressurection to shouldn't
be interpreted as meaning that any 'normal' Malkioni would give them the
time of day, let alone give their beleifs any serious consideration. To
be frank I've never encounted a much as heretical as the Aeolians and I
was VERY surprised not to be burnt at the stake during HtWwO.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Return of Geas
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 6 Oct 94 18:50:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6507
In-Reply-To: <941005081...@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
> From: 10010...@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
>
> Nick aired some grievances about the 'geas' mechanism as it stands. I
> have toconfess that I had not given this subject much thought before
> now. Onreflection, however, I tend to agree with much of Nick's post.
> The mostpersuasive arguement being:
>
> >I just can't help thinking of RQ OT characters in the Cult of Yahweh
> being >allowed to pick and choose (or rolling 1D10 to discover?) which
> of the Ten >Commandments they'll have to follow...
>
> I expect that a good Yelmalion, or Humakti, is going to try damn hard to
> abideby all the 'geasa' listed. I rather suspect that these represent
> just the tipof the iceberg though, particularly in the Yelmalion cult.
> It would notsurprise me to learn that there are all manner of
> restrictions, customs,traditions and etiquette that ought to be adhered
> to. Many of course havingbeen drawn from myth and legend. Along the
> lines of,
>
> 'It is said that, during the Solitude of Testing, X did Y. Therefore,
> all good Yelmalions also do Y.'
> 'Since Z does Y, he is a good Yelmalion. QED.'
>
If we look at the nature of the Geases laid down by each cult I think
it's obvious that they will behave differently. Humakti Geases can all be
obeyed by the samer person, and from this I conclude that a good Humakti
will at least try to do so. one of his vows he will have dedicated
himself to obeying in particular, and from this he will derive some
benefits, but the rest are always there.
Yelmalions (and for that matter Thanatari) have a different set of geases
and a different approach to them. No-one could expect a Yelmalion to obey
all the geases out there, even if (and I think there will be) good
spiritual reasons for doing them all. Apart from anything else an entire
culture that thought that total celibacy was an ideal everyone should
aspire to will die out pretty fast - look at the shakers. And thats
before we encounter the dietry requirements - they'd end up fasting to
death.Yelamlion geases are generally less to do with what makes Yelmalio
Yelmalio than are their humakti equivanlts. 'Never attack from ambush'
has a lot more to do with Humakt's role as God of death and honour than
'Never eat the meat of a bird' has to do with Yelmalio.
My feeling is that in humakti society one aspires to be truely Humakt -
avoiding ambush, poison, weapons that are not swords, magic gained before
the embraced the Lord of Death and generally not being as pro healing as
the rest of us are.
A Yelmalion on the other hand doesn't do that. He can't follow all those
contradictory geases. A Yelmalion. IMHO, beleives that the important
thing is not simply to live by Yelmlio's code, but to swear an oath that
he will forever emulate Yelmalio in one specific way. The way may be
rather trivial - never eat the felsh of bird, or quite important - total
celibacy, though there's nothing in there as major as Hunakt's 'never
accept healing of any kind'. I feel that the obeying a rule is the
important thing for a Yelmalion, rather than the rule itself.
Oh yes - the armour geases. These are of course a personal version of the
Hill of Gold. Yelamlio teaches that you can survive anything, no matter
what the odds are. Going without armour just increases the odds. It may
not be very helpful, but it is consistant with what we know of Yelmalio.
---------------------
From: awe...@netcom.com (Andrew J. Weill)
Subject: Re: Volume 11, no 04, part 1 of 2: Lesser Faiths of Prax
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410061201.A3883-0100000@netcom14>
Date: 6 Oct 94 05:34:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6509
On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
> --------------------
> From: Henk.La...@Holland.Sun.COM
> Subject: Editorial....
>
> Brian and Sandy each sent a huge submission to the Daily
> this week. I'm sending them as issue four today.
>
> And for those on the west coast: I'll be visiting colleagues
> in the States, in the Bay area. I suppose I'll have a couple
> of nights of my own to visit and meet people from the Digest.
> Hey, if someone's willing to host a 'meet the digest' party
> as we had at Convulsion, I'd enjoy that.
>
> Send me mail...
>
> Henk
Henk, I live in the Bay Area and would love to meet you. When are you
coming?
---Andy Weill
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410062...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 7 Oct 94 02:02:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6510
Regarding what Richard Ohlson wrote yesterday:
IMO, no Humakti could be a Trickster, especially of the "Murderer" aspect.
Humakti kill,but they do not _murder_ per se -at least not the Manirian
Humakti we all know and love. The Trickster has to control himself not to
lie and is amoralistic, having no honour whatsoever, while Humakti consider
Truth and Honour extremely important.
In other places, it may be different. I have always loved the
perhaps somewhat weird idea that several gods of Central Genertela have
got secret cults among the Western Monotheistic areas which are just as
wicked as the Western Church says they are -eg a "Humct" cult who act in
approximately the same way as the thuggee of India - killing people in
the honour of their god,and just as an aside robbing them as well.
Of course, you could argue that it was Trickster who got Humakt the Sword
in the first place. However, as I remember it, it was also Trickster who
started fooling around with the Sword so that people who perhaps did not
really ought to have it got it - guys like Raglagnar, for
instance, not to mention Orlanth himself, whose actions upset Humakt so
that he severed himself from his kin forever. This is actually a point
which Humakt and the Trickster have in common - they are both kinless,
the Trickster because he was kicked out of whatever family he belonged to
due to his obnoxious behaviour, Humakt because he chose to do so. IMO,
Humakt worshipers would sever themselves from their kin in the same way,
choosing what conflicts they want to participate. On the whole I consider
Humakti to be cool, detached guys, thinking before they act as not to act
in the wrong way, something that separates them from other warrior
cultists like (obviously) Storm Bulls and Orlanthi.
Tricster showing up when you fumble a DI: I like the idea of it. Just
like Richard, I would also be interested in Trickster material. I think
Tricksters are being shortchanged. They are usually seen only as
something funny, to be played only for laughs. The Trickster figures of
our world are clowns, sure, but they can also be frightening, being
associated among other things with murder, rape and incest. The Fright
and Murder aspects that already exists is a typical example. It would be
interesting if there was a myth behind every Trickster shrine and the spell
it gives, and if the Trickster who wished to have the spell had to go on
a quest
(not necessaily heroic) to get it like committing a murder to obtain
Strike, or commit acts of vandalism to obtain Shatter, or steal fire (or
something valuable from a noble, preferrably solar-worshiping) to obtain
Hide Fire. I also see Trickster as the god for madmen, so a Trickster of
the Murderer aspect would more likely to be a psychopath than a warrior
or assassin, and one of the Thief aspect would commit thefts more out of
kleptomania or just for the thrill rather than for the money. (I don't
know why I suddenly come to think of the villains of the old Batman
serials....Did I phrase this the wrong way?)
Richard's article set me thinking. I may return later with some ideas on
Tricksters, like trying to create one of those shrine-myths.
And by the way, I loved your spirit cults, Bryan. Especially Turnip Boy,
which got me thinking what sort of cult would be the result if certain
characters from our campaign became gods after death....
Cheers,
Erik <eri...@utu.fi>
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Orlanth subcults; Aztec swamps; Esrolia
Message-ID: <1994100622...@radiomail.net>
Date: 6 Oct 94 22:45:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6511
Richard Ohlson wondered
>Various supplements refer to the subcults of Orlanth Rex, Adventurous,
>and Thunderous, but I have no idea where write ups of these are. Where
>can I find them? Is there a big difference between each one, or is it
>more like the difference between Catholic, Episcapalion, and Lutheren?
The most detailed writeup of Orlanth is in Heroes vol. 1 no. 4. River of
Cradles doesn't have O Rex (probably because there aren't a lot of Orlanthi
clan chieftains in Prax). It's all one religion, the difference is more
whether you're an altar boy or in the choir. O Rex is for leaders (clan
thanes, tribal kings), O Adventurous leads to rune lord, and O Thunderous
leads to priest.
>I was reading the write-up on Orlanth and I noticed something odd. Orlanth
>and Ernalda aren't associate cults.
Not true; Ernalda provides Restore Strength to Orlanth priests. And
double-check book 5, where Orlanth gives Cloudcall to Ernalda initiates.
>I arbitrarily decided that all my male players would start initiated to
>Orlanth, and all the female's would be initiated to Ernalda. (And then they
>could join a second cult or whatever later, after they learned the world
>more.) Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult? Or is
>Vinghe Jar (or whatever the red-head's name is) a hero in the Orlanth cult?
What happened in my East Ralios game is all the males decided to initiate
to Orlanth, and the females to Vinga. Not surprising, since the women all
wanted a life of adventure. Or maybe they all wanted to wash their hair
with lime and make it all spiky (the Ralian variant, far superior to mere
henna).
I don't think Orlanth is a male-only cult, but almost all women who belong
end up in the Vinga subcult. (Unless they're thanes or kings, in which case
they're in the Orlanth Rex subcult.) I treat them as normal members of
Orlanth, but they end up as rune ladies.
(BTW, it's Ginna Jar you're confusing Vinga with.)
Peter Metcalfe says
>Although Tenochtilan probably was
>swampy to start of with, the heavy irrigation eradictaed the former habitat.
I think you mean cultivation, not irrigation, but the point remains that
the Mexicans thought it was perfectly swell to put their cities around
marshy areas. (I believe Lake Texcoco disappeared due to geological causes
and more modern draining, not the practice of chinampa agriculture.)
So if the Doraddi think swamps are fine, it's because of cultural
differences, not because they have black skins. Swamps really can be fine.
Sandy reiterates my view that we don't like them because we're
agriculturalists.
BTW, I agree with Ian Gorlick that chinampas (floating gardens) would be
fine for ducks.
Mike Dickison wonders about Esrolia. I haven't given it much thought (other
than as a place to raid :-), but I imagine not only are they matriarchal,
but also matrilineal, which no doubt confuses and annoys other Orlanthi.
The "women rule" bit is probably in many ways a stereotype -- I suspect men
would still be in charge of armies, for example.
---------------------
From: Arg...@aol.com
Subject: Ohlson's questions; disease
Message-ID: <941006214...@aol.com>
Date: 7 Oct 94 01:41:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6512
Richard Ohlson asks:
subject: High Holy Days
>could somebody please look up Ernalda and
>Challana Arroy's High Holy Days?
The calendar says Ernalda's are the entire week of Fertility
in Earth Season; I limit this for game effect to only Clayday (if
you miss that day's ceremonies, you become inactive). CA's are
similarly the entire second week of Sacred Time; I eliminate this
entirely, because CA has seasonal holy days, and I think I'll
make the HHD Wildday/Fertility/Dark Season, commemorating CA's
decision to get off her duff and help people.
>Subject: Dorastor and Eurmal
>In Dorastor, does anybody know what aspect of Eurmal would be
>appropriate for old Lomi?
I vote for Fool as being the most fun, and a more-tolerated-
than-most aspect. Other Theyalan aspects are Lightbringer and
Dismembered. Pelorian aspects are Destroyer, Seducer, Fright,
and (in the lowlands) Murderer. Shapechanger is universal.
>How many other tricksters could we expect to be in town?
As many as you need for the story? I expect no more than
three, though.
>Would they all be of the same aspect, would they all worship at
>Lomi's shrine, or would each one be different and independent?
They all can and probably do worship at Lomi's shrine; I
strongly doubt that Hazard Fort can support a whole shrine, much
less more than one.
>[I have a player that is interested in becoming a trickster.
>Will they have to drop their other cults to join?]
No, but the PC's associates might be bothered if they find
out that their old friend now worships the Murderer or even one
of the less objectionable aspects of the Trickster.
>I had a nasty thought, ever hear of a Humakti Trickster? With
>the trickster's murderer aspect, Strike, BS5, and Truesword
>would be nasty...but would it be possible...?
Possible, yes, but unlikely. More likely to have a Yanafal
Tarnils/Murderer, both because of the geographic overlap and
because YT's aren't necessarily hung up on things like
assassination.
>I arbitrarily decided that all my male players would start
>initiated to Orlanth, and all the female's would be initiated to
>Ernalda. (And then they could join a second cult or whatever
>later, after they learned the world more.) Am I wrong in
>believing that Orlanth is a male only cult? Or is Vinghe Jar
>(or whatever the red-head's name is) a hero in the Orlanth cult?
At Convulsion (or at least on the tape of the Lore Auction),
Greg clarified that Orlanth is male only, and that Vinga is a
subcult for women warriors. (Parenthetically, I see Barntar as
the male parallel in Ernalda: a subcult for men who want to
worship the earth.)
Peter Metcalfe, bringing something useful out of the discussion
of "Swamps: Bane or Pestilence?":
>This I suppose highlights the need for slightly more realistic
>disease rules.
Not really, except in one respect (although the infamous
flesh-eating bacteria could be good to scare PCs with). That one
respect is that many RW diseases leave the victim able to make a
full recovery, assuming he or she doesn't croak. Gloranthan
diseases make one spend lots of time, money, and/or POW to get
the lost stat points back.
Barron Chubb, are you out there? I want to talk about Rune
Paths some more, particularly in combination with Rune Power.
--Martin
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Kitori and stuff
Message-ID: <1994100612...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:10:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6497
>From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
>David Cake on the origins of the Kitori:
>> I think that they started as two separate tribes allied, and the first
>> ceremonial marriage made them a single tribe "officially".
>
>I think merger between tribes is quite unusual, even among all-same-species
>sorts.
I never said that they weren't unusual! In fact, I think that they
are probably the only tribe like that in Glorantha.
> I suspect that the Kitori started
>off as an all troll grouping, perhaps a single clan, and has grown into a
>tribe by "adopting" human clans.
>
The Sacred marriage implies that the leaders of the clan are both human and
troll, which is unlikely to happen if one central clan adopts other smaller
clans. I think that the sacred marriage idea, evolving from an alliance
that had been reliable for some time, is both reasonable and interesting.
>> I definately disagree that humans are allowed to join KL, except in
>> the normal (excruciating) way.
>
>I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll-
>only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity.
There are inumerable societies that have male only or female only
cults, and nobody claims that that is going to defeat tribal unity.
> Maybe Sandy's closer when he says they're all (both
>troll and human) Argan Argar nutters.
I think that Argan Argar is the main god, the one worshipped by
both sides (a perfectly acceptable troll god, and a husband of Ernalda). I
think that the trolls worship KL as well, and that they are quite liberal
about human lay members. But for initiation, the big painful process is
still the norm.
> Or maybe we should just (cop out by)
>say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots
>of AA-like surface darkness magic.
>
Much too dull. There are enough founder deities around (though a
married pair if founder deities is bearable).
>> I think that blurring the species
>> distinction like that would be heresy to the KL cult, and that is not a
>> pleasant thing to contemplate.
>
>Of course it is. Whatever else the Kitori are, I'm sure they're heretics.
>(A faint Eric Idle-like voice, off: "Burn 'em!")
>
Dognatic purity is not something I think that trolls are really
worried about ('when in Rome' attitudes prevail, I think. Or at least 'if
its OK by the big guy, its OK by me'). As long as you don't mess with the
fundamentals of the cult - and I think that racial purity is one thing that
is not going to be skipped over lightly. If they won't let most trollkin
in, they are hardly going to accept humans.
They might stretch the point as far as allowing Kitori humans to be
considered 'part troll', though, I guess (perhaps on the pretext of some
mythical common Kitori ancestor). Even that I am not keen on.
And note that the clans do not intermix that much - a clan is
either human or troll - so as long as AA is calling the shots as far as
tribal decisions, not a problem.
>> I think that the House of Black Arkat is not within Kitori lands
>> (because if it was trolls would be admitted).
>
>I'm inclined to take the opposite view that the note of BA is confused, and
>meant to say "mainly" humans. Shameless, I know.
>
I wish that there was some semi-official word on the damn temple of
Black Arkat, because everybody seems to disagree on what it is. I do not
think that I have seen two people agree.
On to Doraddi (still Alex though)
>
>David Cake replying to innumerable people:
>> First, a little cultural specifics - family means different things to the
>> Doraddi than to the Orlanthi. To the Orlanthi, 'marrying into the family'
>> is a weak concept - the children are not necessarily of that tribe, you may
>> share no property, etc. To the Doraddi it is a strong concept - all that is
>> yours is theirs, you always change tribes if you marry into it, etc.
>
>The Orlanthi
>situation is complicated by the different forms of marriage, but in the vast
>majority of cases, where a person of either sex "marries into" a clan, their
>children (of that marriage) are members of it.
>
I hold by what I said - to the Orlanthi, marriage into a clan means pretty
much what you want it to mean. The marriage bond is primarily a bond
between two people, the clan is not necessarily involved at all. To the
Doraddi, it is more serious, and definately implies that your property is
now the clans, and that you are now part of the clan.
To an Orlanthi, merely living with someone, and remaining
monogamous, and not joining their clan, is not that unusual. To the
Doraddi, it is unthinkable to marry someone but not become part of their
clan.
>> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.
>
>I think you just argued that "kithship" was more important, not kinship
>per se. (Which you later disagree with, to boot.)
>
I do not think that the Doraddi even accept that dualism. For
example they often use words that are translated as 'cousin', or 'uncle' to
describe people that they have no blood relationship to. The Orlanth, on
the other hand, do have that dualism. So will Orlanth has Earth kith, he is
of a storm bloodline (with some Earth ancestry, admitted). But Pamalt is
part of the Earth tribe, even if he wasn't by birth.
Also - to an Orlanthi kinship is bloodline. To a Doraddi, instead
they have the much stranger concept of lineage, which may not reflect blood
relations.
>[Orlanth is:]
>> Son of a minor Earth goddess, and one of the many husbands of Ernalda.
>
>For most of the Barbarian Belt, he's _the_ husband of Ernalda. Esrolia
>is exceptional, if not unique.
>
Ernaldans everywhere seem to grudgingly admit the other husbands, even if
they would find themselves acceptable. Esrolia is the only place where
Orlanth is not the dominant husband (except the Kitori :-) and a few others
we don't know about), but the others are acknowledged if not encouraged.
>Alex.
>
Guy Hoyle tantalises
>Just in case anybody's interested, Sandy's got some GREAT ideas about
>Kralorelan magic (NOT sorcery), and also about the East Isles. We're
>currently in Kralorela in his campaign, and he's tantalized us with
>tidbits. Pester him so's he'll post it here.
>
Sandy, consider yourself pestered!
Cheers
Dave Cake
Dave Cake | "...a world brought alive by the music of Barry
Neophile and | Manilow.." -advertising for Thumbelina
Computer Guy | "Life is simply understood as bit strings of logical
|depth greater than their length."-Rebis, Doom Patrol
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: lan...@cougar.multiline.com.au (Bernard Langham)
Subject: Black Arkat, Kitori
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410062...@cougar.multiline.com.au>
Date: 7 Oct 94 00:03:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6501
Bernard here, fighting back on behalf of his Black Arkati Templars.
>>The following deals (to my satisfaction anyway) with several thorny
>>questions surrounding the Temple of Black Arkat. In particular, it
>>explains (1) why the Temple appears on no map and (2) why it has no Troll
>>members.
>>
>There are an awful lot of Temples that appear on no map!
By (1) I meant "why we are unable to decide whether the Temple lies within
Kitori lands near the Troll Woods, or further south in Hendriki territory"
(an argument which has been going on for some time). My solution elides
the problem by making the "Templars" into a social group, rather than
tying them down to a physical location.
>I quote the entire official knowledge on the subject of Temple of Black
>Arkat, for reference
> 'The Temple of Black Arkat
> In the Holy Country, in the land of Heortland, is the House of
>Black Arkat. This is a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its
>initiates, and is, in every way, just like the troll cult, except that all
>its initiates are human.'
[snip]
> I think that it is a place. It may even be that most of its
>initiates do not live there, and wander Kethaela, but I do think that it is
>a place.
Tis, taint. I don't think that the Black Temple is coterminous with the
Kitori tribe. It would certainly have adherents amongst other peoples
whose lands border on Troll Territory. I would expect to find Way of
Darkness proseletisers haunting the streets of Alda-Chur, Adari, and
Alone, and wherever else the black-shrouded caravans of Argan Argar go.
>I like the term Templars. Joerg and I in private conversation have compared
>them to the Knights Templar, a warrior cult with many overtones of religion
>and mysticism, sorcery, and conspiracy. OK, so that might be a bit hard on
>the historical Templars, but you know what I mean.
I also wanted to imply a certain zealousness, and attachment to dubious
rites of darkness and blood, which accords with the popular image of the
Knights Templar.
>> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp >34-35) is their supreme sacrement.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well.
>(see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods).
I really must learn to elaborate more. This, of course, is precisely _why_
I made the connection between the Templars and the Adoption rite in the
first place.
>It seems unlikely to be
>common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most
>trolls, though.
We-e-e-e-ell, if you read the writeup (which you kindly extract above), it
doesn't actually say there are no Troll members. It says "exactly like
Troll cult... teaches Sorcery to its INITIATES...all INITIATES are human
[emphasis mine]." This does not rule out the possibility of non-humans in
the cult heirarchy beyond Initiate level. In my earlier post I said that
the Black Templars (who are, indeed, all human...to begin with) view the
Troll Adoption Rite as "their *supreme sacrement*", the ultimate station
of their Cross, precisely _because_ Arkat underwent it. However, it's not
just a matter of rolling up to the local KL temple and asking to have your
bits exchanged. The ritual is restricted to high cult rank and those of
unusual dedication or calling. The Trolls have to agree as well, and only
do so in exceptional circumstances. The Adoption Rite is a Great Mystery
to them, of blood, death and rebirth, and only rarely performed.
Uz distrust of blue-eyed Trolls (rhymes with blue-eyed Soul) is a
political reality which the Black Templars have to deal with. For further
insight, I recommend a close reading of Spike Lee's "Do The Right Thing"
(white boyz wanna be Prince; white gurlz wanna be Whitney). Also, you
enter a political minefield when, as a member of a dominant culture, you
set yourself up as a "white soul brother" to an oppressed minority culture
(Trolls would be the last to admit to their oppression, but the Elder
Races aren't exactly ruling the roost in Glorantha these days). The issues
are complex, power-related, and polarise the Troll community along
political lines. Some view the humans' desire to become more like Trolls
as blasphemous, and an insult to Uzdom; others see it as an endorsement of
Troll racial superiority. The majority are undecided, and will go along
with whatever the KL Priestess says.
I would think even Adopted humans would have to deal with Uz zenophobia,
and might be regarded as "coconuts" (Australian Aboriginal term of abuse
for a Nyoongar who's "black on the outside, white on the inside") by some
Trolls. Of course, most Adoptees would have a powerful KL priestess as a
patron (otherwise they'd never have undergone the rite in the first
place), and they are also the subject of some religious awe. Still, it's a
difficult path, and one rarely trodden: you earn the hatred of humans as a
race traitor, and are regarded with suspicion by your adopted people.
>>Their mission is to keep the Chaos Nest in Larnste's Footprint
>>from seeping through the Stonewood into the surrounding countryside.
>
> For reasons I will explain later, near the Footprint is exactly
>where I think that they AREN'T.
Arkati are big on the anti-Chaos schtick, no? So where do _you_ think they
spend their weekends? Come on, David, it stands to reason. "Let's see now,
we're human members of a Troll cult which fights Chaos. There's a
Troll/human tribe in the Troll Woods, and a Chaos Nest, so I think we
ought to base ourselves as far away as possible from them." Yeah right.
>> Trolls
>>view this Uz-wanna-be society with secret amusement, but respect its
>>anti-Chaos zeal. Obviously, no _real_ Uz would dream of becoming a member.
>
>I have a much simpler answer to why no trolls are involved, which also
>neatly answers the question of why there are two separate groups of
>Darkness worshipping humans in Heortland.
> It is simply that I think that the Temple of Black Arkat is not
>near the Troll Woods, and not too close to the Shadow Plateau, and thus has
>no trolls in it simply because it is not near any trolls. It could well be
>a relic of when the Only Old One ruled.
Tis, Taint. Until Greg or some other RuneGod decides one way or another,
either explanation could be true. Yours sounds eminently reasonable, but
(if you'll forgive me for saying so) somewhat dull. I think mine is more
interesting, memorable, and, well, Gloranthan (in the grand tradition of
Imminent Mastery/Kero Finn/The Block/Cannibal Cult/Anticamelus
Riders/other colourful but somewhat unlikely things), and has more scope
for roleplaying, which is my sole criterion for preferring it to yours. I
chose a Kitori character in yr campaign because I am interested in the way
the intersections of wildly varying cultures highlight difference
(Henotheism at the confluence of Malkioni and Theist continental plates;
Kitori caught between Human and Troll culture; bizarre and fascinating
interactions result). But then, [insert pompous Latin aphorism meaning
"Your mileage may vary" here].
On Kitori Henotheism:
>
> Definately disagree here. Apart from the wisdom of adding yet
>another group of henotheists to the Kethaela area (as pointed out by
>someone else, the number of Westerners is getting out of hand).
Doesn't worry me. There are a lot of Westerners in the area because it was
conquered by Arkat during the Dawn Age, and is now directly linked via
lucrative land and sea-going trade routes with Ralios, Seshnela and
Fronela.
I think the Kitori are Henotheist/Stygian because:
[1] converted to Malkionism by Arkat in Dawn Age;
[2] explains presence of Sorcerous Templars -- NB we're told Sorcerers
can't exist without some kind of Western infrastructure to back them up
[3] permits coexistence with Trolls by removing main source of conflict
(religious disagreements)
[4] Trolls remember Arkat fondly (he set up the Shadowlands and left the
OOO to rule over them) and are hip to Kitori Arkatism
[5] I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as anything
other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist. In part this stems
from my liking for Paul Reilly's infamous Twin system. In fact, my version
of the Kitori invests heavily in Twin theory for its justification, via a
long and complicated process of reverse-engineering the mechanics of
Henotheist Sorcery as they differ from, say, Brithini Sorcery and Troll
Sorcery. Which is too boring to go into right now but stay tuned!
David suggests plausible Argan Argar link:
>Thus the Troll Kygor Litor Queen has no problem with allying herself to an
>Argan Argar King, and the Ernaldans simply revere Argan Argar as foremost
>husband protector. No Henotheism necessary, I'm glad to say.
You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon
Pass and Kathaela. I would expect to see many (contrasting) examples of
it, many different ways of integrating the old ways with the new, in the
shifting no-mans land between the diehard theist cultures of Dragon Pass
and the ever-increasing influence of Western civilization marching down
the loading ramps of the trade ships in Nochet city. Tribes adapt,
reinvent themselves, find new myths, rethink the old ways. I'm not sure
why you have a problem with this. Though for what it's worth, I think the
Kitori are more theist than, say, the inhabitants of the Hendriki Kingdom
of Malkonwal. They still actively worship their old gods, just under new
names. The old cult structures are still plainly visible.
[snip]
>but there is probably a significant minority of Zorak Zorani anti-chaos
>fanatics, given the closeness of the Rubble.
^^^^^^
You misspelled Footprint.
> Another thing worth noting is there is one famous troll from the
>Hero Wars period, described as being from the south, which presumably means
>the troll woods, so probably a Kitori. He is Obash Broos-smasher, a
>runelord with an intelligent sylph for an allied spirit!
That'll be Wu Ch'eng En the Baboon and his ally Cloud. Didn't I mention?
He changed his name after undergoing the Adoption Rite. :)
> Cheers
> Dave
Later,
~Barney
--
Bernard Langham . lan...@cougar.multiline.com.au . Perth, Western Australia
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 06 Oct 1994
Message-ID: <941006202...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 6 Oct 94 06:29:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6508
> Since one of the primary myths of Daka Fal/Ancestor Worship is the
> separation of the dead from the living, resurrection might be seen
> as sacreligious.
Many, but not all, of Glorantha's ancestor worshipers hate
and fear death. And they fear their ancestors as much as they honor
them. Note for instance the high prevalence of "neutral" and even
malign ancestors -- obviously the spirits are less than benign. I
think they're thrilled to have access to Resurrection through the
Daka Fal cult structure, and use it at every opportunity (which may
not be very often, of course).
Nick Brooke's praise of my last Pamaltelan myth encourages me to tell
another.
NOTE: Duala is the daughter of Pamalt and Faranar. She makes the good
rain come (as opposed to the bad rain), but she is also a goddess of
sunshine and happiness. In some cultures, she is born anew every
year. She is always portrayed as pre- or barely- adolescent. The Six
Legged Empire thought that she was Voria.
DUALA AND THE SEVEN MONSTERS
Well, there were these seven monsters, and there was Duala. One day,
Duala and her six friends all went out to play. The seven monsters
say the girls running by and Snaggletooth said, "Look! A tasty tidbit
for each of us!" And the monsters came running out after them.
Oh, no! Monsters! The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after
the girls. The monsters ran faster than the girls.
The girls came to Banyan Tree. "Oh Banyan tree, you are our
father and our mother, save us!" Banyan Tree said, "Climb up!" and
the girls climbed into the tree. Here come the monsters! The monsters
are too clumsy to climb the tree. "Banyan Tree!" command the
monsters. "Shake down the girls." "No, not I!" says Banyan Tree.
"One of us must run home and get Axe to chop down Banyan
Tree." says Snaggletooth. "You go get it, Sagbelly."
"No," says Sagbelly. "While I am gone, the girls might tumble
out of the tree, and then YOU would get to eat the chief's daughter
[i.e., Duala], instead of me."
"You run get it, Spindleshanks." "No!"
"You run get it, Goggle-eyes." "No!"
"You run get it, Dripsnoot." "No!"
"You run get it, Knot-tail." "No!"
"You run get it, Frogbeard." "No!"
"Well, then," said Snaggletooth. "We must all go together."
All the monsters ran back to their cave to get Axe. While the
monsters were gone, Banyan Tree said, "You girls better run from
here." And the girls climbed down from the tree and ran on.
The monsters came back with Axe. "It's no use chopping ME
down. The girls have gone this long while." The monsters threw away
Axe and ran, ran, after the girls.
The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after the girls. The
monsters ran faster than the girls. The girls came to Rock. "Rock,
you are our father and our mother, save us!" Rock said, "Come in and
hide." and Rock opened up for the girls to crawl in. Then Rock shut
himself up again. Here come the monsters! "Rock!" order the monsters.
"Open up, and give us the girls." "No, not I!" says Rock.
"One of us must run and get Hammer to break open Rock." says
Snaggletooth. "Sagbelly, go and get Rock."
"No!" says Sagbelly. "While I am gone, the girls might come
out of the rock, and then YOU would get to eat the chief's daughter."
"Go for Hammer, Spindleshanks." "No!"
"Go for Hammer, Goggle-eyes." "No!"
"Go for Hammer, Dripsnoot." "No!"
"Go for Hammer, Knot-tail." "No!"
"Go for Hammer, Frogbeard." "No!"
"Hmm," says Snaggletooth. "Seems we must ALL go." So all the
monsters pounded on home to get Hammer. While the monsters were gone,
Rock said, "You girls better get before the monsters return." And
Rock opened up, and the girls ran away.
Back came the monsters with Hammer. "It's no use pounding on
ME," said Rock. "The girls are gone this long while." The monsters
cursed and threw Hammer away to chase after the girls.
The girls ran, ran. The monsters ran after the girls. Oh no!
The girls are in a great open flat plain with nowhere to hide. The
monsters ran faster than the girls. The girls came to a little marshy
place. In the marsh sat Frog. "Oh, Frog! You are our father and our
mother. Save us!" "You are big and hard to hide, but I will try."
said Frog. "Clamber in my mouth." So the girls climbed in Frog's
mouth and she hid them. Then Frog picked up her javelin points from
her hole and put them in her cheeks. Frog has been collecting javelin
points in the marsh for a long time.
Here come the monsters. "Give up the girls, Frog, or it will
be bad for you." say the monsters. "All right," says Frog. "But you
have to line up in front of me. Stay lined up." The monsters line up
in front of Frog. POK! POK! Frog spits out the javelin points and
Snaggletooth and Sagbelly fall dead.
"No! No!" shout the monsters. "Spit out the chief's daughter
and the girls." "All right," says Frog. "But stand in line right in
front of me." The monsters go back in line. POK! POK! POK! POK! POK!
All the monsters fall dead. Then Frog hops to the chief's house.
"Where are the girls, Frog?" asks Chief Pamalt.
Frog spits out the girls. They come dancing and singing out.
Chief Pamalt gives honeycakes to everyone to eat. And Chief Pamalt
makes a golden jewel for Frog to wear in her head when she sits
amongst the marshes. You can see the jewel today, when you look into
Frog's eyes. She still glitters with it.
NOTE: In most similar Orlanthi myths, the emphasis would be on the
defeat of the monsters, and how they were beaten. Note the different
take on the Pamaltelan version, in which the story becomes an
education in cooperation -- or lack of it, in which the monsters'
inability to trust one another leads to their downfall.
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6513: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
- The Red Moon part 2. Defense of Sid.
6514: rowe = (Eric Rowe)
- The Red Moon part 2. The defense of Sid.
6515: pyspas = (Paul Snow)
- Head Hunting and Resurrection
6516: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Yelmalio & Humakt armouring geases
6517: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Cities of Heortland
6518: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- House of Black Arkat, and Scholar Wyrm
6519: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Pamalt...
6520: yfcw29 = yfc...@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
- German gamers.
6521: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994
6522: 100102.3001 = (Peter J. Whitelaw)
- Son of Return of Geas
6523: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 1
6524: pearton = (Dave Pearton)
- Resurection, Ignorance
6525: Argrath = Arg...@aol.com
- Dara Happan Book of Emperors
6526: jacobus = (Bryan J. Maloney)
- "Vingha Jar"
6527: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Doraddi, Orlanthi, marriage
---------------------
From: ro...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Red Moon part 2. Defense of Sid.
Message-ID: <1994100709...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Oct 94 19:19:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6513
---------------------
From: ro...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Red Moon part 2. The defense of Sid.
Message-ID: <1994100709...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 6 Oct 94 19:20:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6514
Harald dares suggest that my drinking buddy Sid was incorrect in his
opinion on the visibility of the red moon. To defend Sid's honor I am
forced to reply.
>I assume this was in response to David Dunham's complaint (shared by
>myself) that the Red Moon should be visible beyond the Glowline, if it is
>indeed in or contesting the Middle Air.
Actually, it was in response to something I ate. (Don't try the red mushy
peas at the Eat at Geo's at RQ Con 2)
>Though Eric's comments are reasonable, I still don't believe they prove
>that the Red Moon can only be viewed within the Glowline. Remember that
>the Glowline and the Temples of the Reaching Moon didn't exist until Yara
>Aranis was created in the Fourth Wane. This would imply that you couldn't
>see the Red Moon from the time the goddess rose into the sky until Sheng
>Seleris came on the scene! Yet the First Inspiration of Moonson claims she
>did rise into the sky, she could view her children on the earth, and I
>would surmise that she could in turn be seen.
You're missing the obvious counter-argument that until the Fourth Wane the
moon was just an ordinary chunk of rock. Only at the time of Yana Aranis
and the creation of the reaching moon temples did the moon begin to give
off rays of it's own. Before that the moon was seen the same way you could
see anything, reflected light from the sun. In fact, I think this association
with the glowline and reaching moon temples strengthens my argument. At the
very least it does nothing to lessen it as you suggest.
>A further implication is that if you were outside the Glowline you wouldn't
>know what day of the week it was and whether your magic would have any
>effect.
Well, hopefully you can remember what day it is, or ask someone who does.
"Hey, Tulius, what's wrong with my magic today? Everything seems a little
weak for a Fireday?" "That's because it's Wilday you moron." Heck, that's
what calenders were invented for I hear.
>If you look at the map in Codex #2 showing the location of the Middle Air,
>which the Red Goddess is supposed to be contesting, then I think it makes
>a very difficult argument to say it can't be seen from elsewhere outside
>the Glowline. If she's in the Lower Air, fine then there are mountains
>that would block the view of her, but I've never heard or seen anything to
>suggest this.
It is my contention that she is indeed contesting the for the middle
air, but from the lower air. When Orlanth is finally defeated she will
rise higher and be visible farther than at present. I think the whole
'contesting' idea is in fact that the problem is for the red moon to
rise higher, she must conquer and place temples in Orlanthi lands.
I do not think the Red Moon is visible from the west or the east. If
so, I would have expected Knights and Dragons to have come marching
into central Genertela long ago. So yes, for now the mountains get in
the way. Of course, that is only temporary and soon our glorious
goddess will shine high over all our heads.
>Harald
eric
---------------------
From: pys...@bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Head Hunting and Resurrection
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.941007...@midge.bath.ac.uk>
Date: 7 Oct 94 11:37:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6515
Nick Brooke
----------
> Divine magic spell rearing its ugly head again. Retreating Brithini troops
> would carry home the heads of their dead comrades, so the sorcerers could
> regrow the bodies and resurrect them. The head's the most efficient load.
Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi
way, prevent resurrection? Anyone got any Gloranthan justifications on why
Orlanthi should or shouldn't do this?
PAS
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Yelmalio & Humakt armouring geases
Message-ID: <_2354_Fri_Oct__7_09:10:54_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:10:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6516
Nils Weinander in rq-id 6496:
>Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
>fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
>didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.
Guess that means we'll have to write some!!
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Pamalt...
Message-ID: <H.ea._od...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:05:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6519
>> What's the point of disagreeing with Sandy Petersen?
> I'm starting to like Martin quite a lot .... ;)
As I replied to Martin, it tickles Sandy to give out more info. See,
it worked! <g>
> Joerg, one of my most noted "disagreers" (it's something like a
> Mouseketeer, but shaped more like a stick insect -- those who've seen
> Joerg and Alex side-by-side know what I mean)
Insect??? Both Alex and I ought to qualify as mammalian life forms,
primates, not children of Gorakiki.
Stick I can live with...
>>Earth and Fire spells keep their balance, there, with Cronisper,
>>Vangono and Lodril among the givers. Pamalt adopted the Agimori, men
>>made by the fire deities. Such an adoption mostly works two ways...
> While Cronisper isn't strongly fire-related, admittedly
> Pamalt likes the various fire gods heaps. HOWEVER, in Pamaltela, I'm
> not sure that they make the distinction between Earth Powers and Fire
> Powers that is made in Genertela.
Any elemental division of pantheons seems alien to the Doraddi. What
about the coastal Pamaltelans (IMO the majority of humans on that
continent)? Umathela has imported Genertelan creed, Fonrit is dominated
by the Garangording spirits of oppression and city gods. What about
Laskal, Maslo and the other coastal regions?
> Lodril, even in Genertela, is sort
> of an adopted Earth power. The lowfires are sort of Earthy, too.
My latest musings about Peloria, and a reread of Gods of Fire and Light,
made me think even more that Lodril is partly from earth. According to
WF10, he merged with a squirming thing on the ground. Since Krarsht (the
first candidate if this relates to the Footprint myth) still exists as
a separate entity, I think that Lodril merged with an Earth entity.
> The Agimori were made by fire gods, but they have an equal
> amount of Earth in them. 50-50.
Much like Lodril.
> Orlanth is NOT recognized as King in much of Pent, the
> Wastes, the KoI, the northern parts of Fronela (where the Rathori
> live), most of central Ralios, etc. And his support is even weaker if
> you go by population figures rather than geographic spread, since all
> the high-density regions (with the admitted exception of Kethaela)
> are non-Orlanth fans.
West King Wind admittedly is not a majority religion in Pent, but the
only mention of "King" I ever heard wrt Pent. The concept of kings is
shared between the Theyalans and the Malkioni, and possibly the original
west Pelorian peoples. Both the Kralori and the Dara Happans call their
rulers Emperors, and they stress other traits in their rulers than the
king cultures. (I still suspect that Malkion imported the concept of
kings from the Storm Gods...)
I agree that most Malkioni have little use for a king of gods. They have
only one, after all. Peloria is a difficult case because of the various
rulers who proselytized there, but apart from Carmanian Shahs, all kings
there follow the role model of Orlanth - the Theyalan (Earth?) King,
even if the royal cult may be focussed to a different deity.
> Pamalt has myths as complex as anything Orlanth has to boast
> about, and Pamalt, like Orlanth, is frequently torn between
> conflicting obligations, desires, needs, and loves. However, UNLIKE
> Orlanth, he doesn't solve most all of these problems by simply
> prioritizing his obligations (usually with Ernalda on top), and then
> going out and bashing the guys whom he decides are the Bad Guys in
> this situation. Pamalt's myths rarely end with Pamalt beating up
> anybody, which is almost always the Big Scene in an Orlanth story.
> Orlanth is a lot more comic-book-like -- every issue's gotta have a
> big fight scene. Pamalt is like a Jane Austen novel -- slow buildup,
> subtle background activities, etc.
This might be why the Doraddi remain alien to me - so do Jane Austen
novels...
Your average mythophile thinks he has a right to get his heroic clash,
or at least a Trickster cop-out. A lot of the cautionary tales are
unpopular because they resemble the unpopular real-life ones too
closely, I'd guess. Thus the Doraddi "don't let anything unusual happen"
style of life doesn't feed the roleplayers' urge for action. Let's
admit it - we want Orlanth in his fight, so that's what we (and his
worshippers) get.
> Time for a myth about Pamalt
Indeed. A nice one.
> Pamalt asked Lodril, and he said, "No, O my grandson."
Teaser!
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: yfc...@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: German gamers.
Message-ID: <941007163...@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 7 Oct 94 15:33:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6520
I know there are a few gamers in Germany on the daily, so I hope you will see
this. The brother of a friend of mine is working in Germany at the moment.
He is a keen roleplayer, but I don't think he has player Runequest. He
is realy keen to get in touch with gamers in Germany. He is not on the
Internet, but his brother Andy is. Andy can be mailed at ada...@uk.oracle.com
and he can give you more details. Perhaps you could mail your 'phone
numbers or addresses to Andy to he can pass them to his brother.
Cheers.
Simon Hibbs
yfc...@castle.ed.ac.ik
---------------------
From: 10010...@compuserve.com (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Son of Return of Geas
Message-ID: <941007200557_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 7 Oct 94 20:05:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6522
Hi all,
Nick Eden responds to my meandering thoughts on Geases:
[...Good stuff...]
Yup, I see your point. Thanks for posting it.
BTW I recently tried to e-mail you about you mag 'Read Pheasant Throughout' but
got bounced. RPT is an RPG mag? If so, what do I do to get a look at a copy?
All the best,
Peter
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410072...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 8 Oct 94 00:56:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6523
Nils Weinander wrote yesterday:
> Ian Gorlick and Peter Metcalfe points out the Hill of Gold. OK that's
> fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
> didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.
> _____
It has to do with the Humakti concept of honour and fair play, I think.
Many of the geases gives the Humakti extra power in some area while
making himself weaker in arelated area. So the one who always do double
damage gets no magical healing, the one who can detect others ambushing
him is forbidden to ambush, and the one who can damage a certain area
more than is the normal case gets himself to be more damged in a certain
area because he cannot wear armor there. There is no connection of this
kind with some of the geases, which I dislike a little, especially the
"pay extra tithing to increase your stats" thing.
Regarding the Red Moon:
As I remember it (sorry, I cannot check the source and I do not remember
where I got it from) the Red Moon is clearly visible all over Glorantha,
or at least Genertela. Inside the Glowline, however, the moon is always (
considered or factually, I do not know) full.
Nick wrote yesterday:>
> > The ethical dimension comes in on the subject: Should I use this spell
> > at all?
>
> Not that question: I presume a Malkioni Wizard would think it appropriate
> to cast 'Worship Invisible God' at services. The ethical question is over
> whether an Evil Sorcerer could cast exactly the same spell by performing
> the same ritual. There are real-world arguments which suggest he could do
> so, incidentally: but nobody was interested last time I brought these up.
>
IMO, that depends on who attends the service. Have they been acting like
a True Believer would? If not, perhaps they should not be allowed to give
their sacrifice to the Invisible God. As I see it, the spell is one-way;
it is nowhere stated that IG is supposed to respond personally to say
that "OK, thank you for the MP". When an Evil Sorcerer (or a heretic or
atheistic Sorcerer, which probably equals evil in the eyes of most Wizards)
casts the spell, he merely fools the community to think they have given the
proper sacrifice, which of course is a sin.
I was not around last time - please bring them up again!
---------------------
From: pea...@u.washington.edu (Dave Pearton)
Subject: Resurection, Ignorance
Message-ID: <941007211...@stein1.u.washington.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 94 07:11:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6524
Brithini and Resurrection:
I would tend to agree (with igor-lick - great name btw ;) that the
Brithini tend to view being restored from the dead as a resusitaion
rather than a resurection.
In addition someone made a (very good) case for various cultures not
viewing resurection as a good thing. I just have one problem with this
in terms of the mostali - he said that they would not try to bring back
a dead dwarf as they are broken and only fit for disposal. This is fine
for heretic dwarves but I think that an iron dwarf killed while defending
the octomony would be viewed as a broken tool and depending on how useful
the tool was it might be more cost efficient to repair the tool rather
than make a new one, particularly in light of the (frankly awful)
proposals for dwarf reproductions that were discussed here a while ago.
Heretic dwarves, OTOH, are defective tools and only fit for disposal.
This brings up an interesting point - do the Brithini and dwarves have
what the theistic cultures would recognise as a soul. I don't believe
that they do. But could a heretic dwarf who joined a lightbringer cult
be resurected through CA type magic?
-------
The proposal for inverted pyramids and other weird mezoamerican type stuff
for the KOI came from the _old_ daily, before Henk took
over. I believe they were posted by Sandy? Can you confirm this Sandy,
and if possible give us a little more on this facinating region?
Yours in nonsense
Yak
--
***********************************************************************
Dave Pearton * ....As I was saying before I
Biochemistry Dept. * was so rudely interrupted
University of Washington * by one of my multiple
Seattle * personalities....
pea...@u.washington.edu *
pea...@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za * Naked Lunch (W.S. Burroughs)
************************************************************************
---------------------
From: Arg...@aol.com
Subject: Dara Happan Book of Emperors
Message-ID: <941007173...@aol.com>
Date: 7 Oct 94 21:39:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6525
The Dara Happan Book of Emperors is not available from Wizard's Attic. When
I asked what gives, the guy said it will probably not become available until
the RQ Con in January.
--Martin.
---------------------
From: jac...@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: "Vingha Jar"
Message-ID: <941008001...@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:16:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6526
>>I arbitrarily decided that all my male players would start initiated to
>>Orlanth, and all the female's would be initiated to Ernalda. (And then they
>>could join a second cult or whatever later, after they learned the world
>>more.) Am I wrong in believing that Orlanth is a male only cult? Or is
>>Vinghe Jar (or whatever the red-head's name is) a hero in the Orlanth cult?
Not to blow my own horn (Okay, I'll blow it)--There is a writeup of the
Vinga subcult on the ftp archive for the daily, ftp.csua.berkeley.edu
The cult is in the /pub/runequest/cults directory.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Doraddi, Orlanthi, marriage
Message-ID: <941008051...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Oct 94 05:12:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6527
David Cake:
> I hold by what I said - to the Orlanthi, marriage into a clan means pretty
> much what you want it to mean. The marriage bond is primarily a bond
> between two people, the clan is not necessarily involved at all.
Not necessarily, no, as some forms of marriage have "opt-outs". But that
doesn't mean that most marriages aren't of the sort where clans _are_
involved, or that for such marriages the clans are less important. Also,
there are (at least historical cases) where Orlanthi clans marry only into
(or "from") certain specific others.
> To an Orlanthi, merely living with someone, and remaining
> monogamous, and not joining their clan, is not that unusual.
Well, technically, one doesn't join the clan one "marries into", if I
recall correctly, but this is a fairly notional distinction, I think.
Certain forms of marriage indeed make one less an (effective) part of the
clan, but I doubt they are at all common.
> >> Kinship is a more important and more complicated concept in Pamaltela.
> >I think you just argued that "kithship" was more important, not kinship
> >per se. (Which you later disagree with, to boot.)
> I do not think that the Doraddi even accept that dualism.
The left footpath tribes certainly make this distinction. I'm less clear
how the right hand tribes work, but if you have different relations to
the lineage you've married into and the one you were born into, which
seems to be what you suggest, then they do too, albeit in a more complex
way.
> Also - to an Orlanthi kinship is bloodline. To a Doraddi, instead
> they have the much stranger concept of lineage, which may not reflect blood
> relations.
So how do they regard blood relatives _not_ in their lineages, then?
> >For most of the Barbarian Belt, he's _the_ husband of Ernalda. Esrolia
> >is exceptional, if not unique.
> Ernaldans everywhere seem to grudgingly admit the other husbands, even if
> they would find themselves acceptable.
I might have agreed, were it not for that "the". I think it's probably
fairly common for _some_ of the (RQ3:5-listed) husbands to be recognised,
where there is some pragmatic or mythic reason for it (like trolls on your
doorstep, say). Esrolia is not so much unique in that Orlanth's not the
most important, as in that so many are simultaneously recognised.
> Guy Hoyle tantalises
> > Pester [Sandy] so's he'll post [stuff on Kralorelan magic] here.
> >
> Sandy, consider yourself pestered!
Sandy, consider yourself pestered more!
Alex.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Cities of Heortland
Message-ID: <H.ea.9PX...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:04:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6517
This is the Heortland City Guide, as per my campaign. I don't know whether
anything like this ever has been considered or published, and most ideas
haven't yet occurred in actual gaming, so I'm open for suggestions,
comments and alterations.
Cities in Heortland, but not (directly) ruled by the King of Heortland,
or not native Heortlending:
*Whitewall
An oppidum with certain similarities to Alesia (maps in most editions
of Caesar's Bellum Gallicum).
The name comes from the "Celtic Wall" (a drystone construct supported
by a wooden framework, nearly impervious to siege engines) around this
hilltop city. The stones for the wall are white quartzite from the
riverbeds around (similar to the facing of Newgrange), and gleam
blindingly if the sun stands right. IMO the causeway leading up to
Whitewall would come from the southwest, thereby making the light
reflection another weapon against attackers.
Whitewall is noted for its Great Temple to Orlanth. It is also the
traditional seat of the tribal king of the Volsaxi.
Whitewall's architecture differs considerably from that of Sartar, being
a lot older, and more traditionalist than Sartar's modern Hendriki-style,
dwarf-technology cities. Thus the cities founded by Sartarite kings
have hewn stone blocks rather than drystone walls.
(Runegate has been mentioned as a city in KoS. Since its founding predates
the coming of Sartar, I suppose it originated as an ambitious and large
fortress for the Runegate chieftains, as a means of dominance over the
neighbouring Colymar, Malani and Lismelder and smaller clans/tribes. The
vigorous clans and tribes in this area, like the Varmandi, made these
ambitions nought, and in hte end the Runegate tribe joined the Colymar.
IMO Runegate had Celtic walls which were one reason why the Lunars had
to call upon the Crimson Bat instead of simply storming the place.)
*Smithstone
The other larger settlement in Volsaxi lands, on the main crossing of
the Marzeel River. The trade with Sartar via northern Heortland uses
this place as embarkation port for river trade with Karse. The Highway
leading north probably started as a joint venture by the Pharaoh and
the hero Sartar to establish trade with Dragon Pass and the lands
beyond, but has fallen in disrepair when the hero Sartar seceded from
the Holy Country and founded his own kingdom, and the Pharaoh chose to
boycot his unfaithful subject.
*Karse
In the 1st and 2nd Age, this port dominated the trade up the Creek-Stream
River into Dragon Pass. Even after the Closing fell, Karse remained a
port city, and transported Esrolite grain into the densely populated
urban regions of Dragon Pass. Only in 1120, when the Dragonkill War
started the inhuman occupation which totally closed off the north, too,
Karse ceased to function as a port. Its local importance had been
reduced in importance earlier when Lylket (the ruins on the shore of
the Mirrorsea Bay shown on the map in RQ2) fell in the course of the
Machine Wars, since the road into the northern Hendreiki lands (around
Jansholm) had to go the long way upriver, almost to Smithstone, before
it could avoid the cliffs. As a consequence, most of the city fell into
disuse and disrepair.
I intend to use the Midkemia Press supplement "Carse" published by
Chaosium, since I suspect strongly that the name equivalence is not an
accident. Note that while the Lylket ruins appear in RQ2, Karse isn't
shown on that map. And having visited Caernarvon in Gwynedd, Wales, I
plan to make use of the fact that there was a Roman legion's quarter
about a mile inland from the castle. IMO Karse originally was a larger
city than the current one, extending through the valleys in the
basalteous rocky outcrops from Lodril's Mountain, now better known as
Shadow Plateau after Argan Argar flattened its top. Of course, one has
to read the map in the Chaosium book upside down to get the Marzeel
River in from the correct direction...
Normally the harbour of Karse would have sanded up in the time of
disuse (in the Holy Country, squads of newtlings are employed to clear
the quayes of mud an detritus), but when Belintar slew the dark monster
summoned by the Only Old One the Creak-Stream River was blocked, and
the input of detritus and mud was reduced to the meagre load of the
Marzeel River, previously only a tributary.
Resettlement of Karse started in the time of turmoil in Heortland,
which also send most of the ancestors of today's Quivini north. Not
unlike the case of New Pavis, the founding noble and builder of the
grandiose castle was an unimportant member of the royal house of the
Hendreiki who led a personal following into the sparsely settled ruins
and started to reestablish river trade, at least into the Kitori and
Orlanthi lands to the North, and also into the Blackwind Marsh, where
troll boatsmen would emerge now and then. His ambitions were sponsored
by Belintar, who sensed that this venture would cause a manifestation
of unity of his realm. Belintar also provided the plans for the castle,
one of the most advanced in all Glorantha. (He might also have been
interested in reestablishing the port of the Fleet of Black Ships
mentioned in Holy Country documents.)
Karse soon regained its fame as the city where anything is possible,
since several of the more notable residents' families of 2nd Age Karse
made it into teh newly founded city. The early estimate for the
populace proved to have been too niggardly, so that about half of the
city now sprawls outside the city walls, but this development came with
the reopening of Dragon Pass for trade in the later 1300s.
Because of the direct involvement of the Pharaoh and the bad atmosphere
between the re-founder of Karse and his king, the city has remained
outside of direct control of the Hendreiki kings ever since. The
natives of Karse are a mix of Heortlanders, Esrolites, a few Sea-folk
descendants, and a healthy dose of outsiders, none of which have
managed to dominate the city completely.
(This should reinterpret the local history given for Carsein a
sufficiently Holy Country context...)
*Refuge
This city, while lying on the continental part of God Forgot, doesn't
belong to either God Forgot or Heortland, although it was conquered by
an enterprising Hendreiki King a few centuries ago, who also installed
the Marcher Barons around Knights Fort, on the border to Orani's
Mistake in Prax. The native populace differs somewhat from the
Brithini-like lords of God Forgot and its enigmatic other inhabitants,
possibly has a certain amount of Oasis Folk and Praxian outcasts.
(I intend to use the article from Tatou (?) by Guillaume Fournier,
"Refuge - La Cite Derobee", based on Chaosium's Thieves World box,
although I'd change some details about the Malkioni/Brithini
sorcerers.)
Now to the Hendreiki cities:
*Jansholm
Large city (7500-12500) on the Solthi River
IMO situated on a river island (holm meaning river island), similar
(identical map?) to medieval Paris. Jansholm lies close to the border
to the Volsaxi lands, and acts as a mediator between the more civilized
Hendriki lands and the very traditional (i.e. rustic, barbarian) Volsaxi
inhabiting the Marzeel Valley. Tools, weapons and cloth of Hendreiki
manufacture find good prices among these northern neighbours, so a number
of thriving crafts guilds have developed. Wheelwrights flourish from their
trade with the Volsaxi nobility. (Nonmagical) woad is shipped south
to Durengard, along with peaty grain spirits from the Smithstone area,
agricultural produce to support Jansholm, and goods from Sartar and the
Lunar Empire. Most of the latter are transported by river barges to
Karse, though.
IMO the Solthi River allows the use of river barges with only two portages
between the small barge harbour on the west tip of the city island, below
the bridged rapids dividing Jansholm from the surrounding lands. The
island position allows fairly weak but still highly effective
fortifications.
Aeolian churches and Orlanthi temples:
- St. Elmal's Cathedral houses the troll fighting knights and wizards
(because of the hordes of food trollkin emerging from the Troll
Woods now and then, devastating the trail of their advance)
- Jan's Minster has a great library (I suppose that Jan is the founder,
and now the City God/Spirit of Jansholm, now included in the Aeolian
array of patron saints), and is one of the best sources for studies on
Heortling customs and history.
Great Temples:
- Lighbringers' Temple (Orlanth LB, Lhankor, Chalana, Issaries, Eurmal)
- Temple of Storm and Earth (Orlanth Thunderous, Ernalda, Barntar,
Mahome, Voriof, Voria, Heler, Elmal)
In my campaign, Jansholm becomes the seat of Richard's sherriff in
northern Malkonwal, responsible for taxing and holding off the
uncivilized Volsaxi, Mularik Ironeye, a former Lieutenant in his
company of mercenary knights. A certain Nottingham flavour is to be
expected. However, under the covetous eyes of du Tumerine clerics he
will keep his household socerers at lower profile than later in Tarsh.
Mularik hasn't quite settled down and regards this office (correctly, as
the 1620 invasion proves) as temporary benefit only. Thus he tries to
raise as much ready cash as possible from the native population. This
involves land ownership, too, since the levels of King's Feorm (tax)
depend on ownership of the land. Another trick of his to dispossess
natives is not to step in when raids occur before the back-breaking
taxes are paid. With the Troll Woods and the Footprint as handy sources
of raiding parties, several northwestern clans had to give up a lot of
their bocland in exchange, only to increase their tax duties.
*Backford
Large city (2500-7500) on the Syphon River
Situated above the best fording the Syphon offers, on the south bank.
The Syphon River is unique in that it flows upriver from the exit of
the Footprint, and so has the sheerest drops through its gorge down
towards the Mirrorsea Bay. No boat travel is possible over any sensible
distance.
*Durengard
Large city (7500-12500) on the Bullflood River, IMO capital of Hendriki
Heortland, and later of Malkonwal. One of the prime candidates for all
kinds of large temples and churches.
Among the mundane features besides the royal castle there is a great
cattle market northeast of the city, and the weavers guild is powerful in
the city council.
*Leskos
Large city (2500-7500) at the Bullflood mouth
The best port controlled by the Hendriki before their conquest of
Refuge, and closer to the inland markets. The city is situated on a
peninsula between the river cut and the loamy coastal stretch into the
Mirrorsea Bay. A steep underwater drop of several metres on the river
side allows wooden quays usable at both low and high tide. (I intend to
use a city map borrowed from the layout of Kiel, the city I live in.
The city was founded in 1242 as part of a colonisation effort in then
Slavic lands, a parallel usable here too: Several of the leading
families immigrated from Esrolia when the city was founded around 1320
ST, in an effort by the Pharaoh to reestablish sea trade across the
Mirrorsea Bay, to unify his newly won lands. Maybe there existed an
earlier port a bit upriver, but with the end of overseas travel in 950
it will have fallen in disuse, and possibly sanded up in the 270 years
in between.)
Until 1616 main connection between Durengard and the City of Wonders,
apart from Belintars magical bridge to Durengard. Hastily fortificated
after a Wolf Pirate raid in 1606, but taken and plundered again in
1616. After 1617 the du Tumerines possessed extant trade privileges
remanded in 1621 after they refused to share the greater part of the
revenue with Fazzur.
*Duchamp
Large city (2500-7500) on the Minthos River
The trade centre of southern Heortland, with highways to Durengard,
Vizel and Mt. Passant, on the south bank of the River. I suppose there
will be a ferry service across the river.
*Vizel
Large city (2500-7500) above the Minthos River mouth
The city seems to huddle into the cliff, possibly giving a panorama
similar to the pockets of Boldhome. I envision a number of stairs of
white limestone, with the port on the lowest layer, possessing quayes
made of stone. This port is the gate to southern Heortland. Its position
relatively far up the river makes the tidal change less drastic than in
other ports upon the Mirrorsea Bay.
*Mt.Passant
Large city (7500-12500) in the southern plain
This city dominates the grain producing flats of southern Heortland
from a small hillock. The softly rolling landscape surrounding it can
be seen to great distances.
This region is likely to be the most prosperous of Heortland
IMO Mt. Passant is the second most likely candidate for harbouring the
Lhankor Mhy temple mentioned in Elder Secrets.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: House of Black Arkat, and Scholar Wyrm
Message-ID: <H.ea.&_uzbI...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 7 Oct 94 14:05:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6518
David Cake in X-RQ-ID: 6467
> There are an awful lot of Temples that appear on no map!
Sad but true. The situation is especially bad in Heortland. There is
the House of Black Arkat which hasn't been fixed geographically, and an
important Lhankor Mhy temple inhabited by Scholar Wyrm. It almost drives
me nuts that wherever I put either of these in my Heortland campaign
I am likely to be Gregged, TotRMed, Codexed, Dailied, or whatever. Unless
other people get Joerged...
IMO the House of Black Arkat is situated somewhere north of the Kingdom
of Malkonwal, since I cannot imagine that the du Tumerine Rokari would
have tolerated this nest of heresies for long. Compare the map in Uz Lore
p.33. The IMO most likely place for the House of Black Arkat would be in
the neighbourhood of Smithstone, roughly at the place where a tributary
forks north from the Marzeel River, into Sun Dome County. This is
conveniently equidistant from both the Troll Woods and the Shadow Plateau,
in a region not infested by other Henotheists or Stygians, close enough to
cause trouble with Yelmalio worshippers, and within reach for human Kitori
who want to study there rather than in their woods.
> Most of the maps
> of Heortland are pretty large scale and thin on detail, so it is no
> surprise to me that it appears on no map.
Which is true for anyplace except Old Sartar (like on the Lismelder
map in Tales 5) and the Zola Fel Valley.
Now to the other Heortland temple of note. The Lhankor Mhy temple
housing Scholar Wyrm IMO is likely to be located in a larger city,
within Hendriki Lands. (I don't think that it is in either Whitewall
or Smithstone, which are the only two cities of Heortland north of
Hendriki Lands. Karse seems off bet, too - who else uses the Midkemia
Productions city book of Caernarfon in Gwynedd as the model for Karse?
Also out is Refuge, already heavily burdened with lots of other places
of interest. (I intend to use a synthesis of Chaosium's Sanctuary and the
article from Tatou (?) by Guillaume Fournier, "Refuge - La Cite Derobee".)
This leaves one of the Hendriki cities, later in Malkonwal. My favourite
candidates are Durengard or Mt. Passant. Reasons for this are my ideas
about the Hendriki cities, as in the Malkonwal City Guide below.
A question aside:
Would the Rokari fanatics recognize that the library is a temple, or would
they regard it as just a handy source of knowledge to use for the glory
of the Invisible God? I don't think they'd burn any library contents, even
if most documents have strange pagan invocations on them. Some of the
documents would be of immediate use to them, like the Hendriki Hideage,
or the registers of bocland (land in possession of families) and common
land, held by the Clans as a fief from the King. (Bocland is mainly
important because only this land could be given to a church or temple as
a token of piety. Such land would have been usurped by the du Tumerines
at once...)
> The Arkat write up also says that
> Arkat temples are rarely larger than shrines, so even presuming that the
> House of Black Arkat is a very large temple by Arkati standards, we are
> still talking a minor temple. No wonder it doesn't appear on any maps.
I think that points of interest ought to appear in GM maps. I mean,
Stone Cross altar is hardly a big settlement, but it appears on any
map showing southern Dragon Pass. Battle Sites and unusual commodities
should be mapped.
> I quote the entire official knowledge on the subject of Temple of Black
> Arkat, for reference
> 'The Temple of Black Arkat
> In the Holy Country, in the land of Heortland, is the House of
> Black Arkat. This is a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its
> initiates, and is, in every way, just like the troll cult, except that all
> its initiates are human.'
David and I disagreed whether this necessarily included worship of (other)
troll deities by the "initiates". Opinions?
>> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp 34-35) is their supreme sacrement.
> A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well.
> (see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods). It seems unlikely to be
> common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most
> trolls, though.
True. The greatest problem I see is to find an adoptive mother within
the cult, to perform this ritual.
> I have a much simpler answer to why no trolls are involved, which also
> neatly answers the question of why there are two separate groups of
> Darkness worshipping humans in Heortland.
> It is simply that I think that the Temple of Black Arkat is not
> near the Troll Woods, and not too close to the Shadow Plateau, and thus has
> no trolls in it simply because it is not near any trolls. It could well be
> a relic of when the Only Old One ruled.
I agree, to a certain extent (see above). I don't think that the temple is
located south of the Solthi River. The du Tumerine (Arch?)bishop would
hardly have tolerated such a dark, plotting quasi-Malkioni organisation
in his see, would he?
> The general consensus (at least Joerg and I and Sandy agree) is
> that the two races live side by side due to the sacred marriage of their
> leaders. They are divine magic users, and the reason that they can combine
> troll unfriendly gods with the Orlanth pantheon is that they do not revere
^^???
> Orlanth himself that much, but see Argan Argar as the more common deity.
IMO Orlanth would be tossed together with Heler into a weather and
farming god, and maybe a few minor deities from Orlanth's Stead would
receive the same worship as in Sartar. Ernalda/the Grain Goddess most
likely are revered as one cult, without any sovereignty aspects - these
are held by the Kyger Litor priestesses of the troll half of the tribe.
> Thus the Troll Kygor Litor Queen has no problem with allying herself to an
> Argan Argar King, and the Ernaldans simply revere Argan Argar as foremost
> husband protector. No Henotheism necessary, I'm glad to say.
Nor likely. The human Kitori live in the woods, probably farming on
clearings, using slash and burn techniques. Quite likely their steads
are isolated from the rest by swampy ground or on the shore of small
lakes, reachable only via roughly planked and easily defended tracks
through the mud. In the dark shelter of beeches, firs and pines, their
troll allies are effective even by day, and the missile weapons of Sun
worshipping enemies are at their worst.
Such a society wold be extremely individualistic, and tending to shamanism
rather than henotheism, which craves some civilisatory infrastructure, IMO.
The Arkati sorcerers could fill the niche occupied by smiths operating
hidden woodland forges in Real Earth myths and fairy tales - the lack of
need for charcoal is one of the most severe differences between Glorantha
and an Iron Age (iron producing) world.
> There are Arkati among the Kitori, though. They exist in roughly
> the same proportions as among the trolls of the area, which is to say a
> very small percentage. Of the small number of Arkat worshippers, though, a
> large %age are professional sorcerers (Joerg and I disagree on what %age,
> but at least 10% or so, I think higher), and another large proportion are
> part of the household of a professional sorcerer.
I.e. a larger proportion than in Malkioni lands, where most of the
populace can be considered to use a bit sorcery, however meagre.
> but there is probably a significant minority of Zorak Zorani anti-chaos
> fanatics, given the closeness of the Rubble.
The Footprint, of course.
> BTW note the great strength of the Argan Argar cult - and
> conveniently situated on or near the major trade routes from Sartar to
> Heortland. Very convenient.
However their main income comes from inhibiting the trade. When Sartar
made clear that he didn't plan to expand the Holy Country, but to
establish a Kingdom of his own, the Pharaoh discouraged the migration
into Dragon Pass, and even sponsored the Kitori raids on this trade route
as a reprimand to Sartar's activities. (Source: WF6)
Argan Argar has significant Ruling God aspects, and IMO these would be
more prominent than the Trade God aspects in the Shadowlands.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994
Message-ID: <941007202...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 7 Oct 94 08:21:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6521
Nils:
>Yelmalio armouring geases:
>why do Humakti have the same stuff?
To show off their courage, or to show that for every benefit,
there must be a penalty. It's a completely different reason from the
Yelmalion system.
Peter Metcalfe is STILL not convinced that swamps are A-OK.
>There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it.
>I'm not too sure about these examples exemplfying Swamps are good.
Eat me. Are there ANY "real" swamps or marshes in all of
England? As an inhabitant of a nation possessing same, and a frequent
visitor to 'em, I hereby state that whatever weird view you have of
swamps by watching movies or reading old Conan stories are false.
>The Bayou folk obviously have the technology to mitigate the worst
>of the swamps side effects such as mosquito netting.
They've been living in the swamp for many many decades, and
few of them actually use mosquito netting over their beds.
Swamps are no more mosquito-laden than any jungle, and plenty
of folk thrive in the jungle.
>The others tribes as far as I am aware stick within the swamp
>because it's their home turf and can easily defend it and are
>acclimatized.
This is a non-argument. The same can be said of the desert,
of the mountains, of the arctic. This is not unique to the swamp.
>How much competition would the swamp humans face from the goblins?
None. They don't eat the same things, after all. They may be
antagonistic or hostile at times, but the swamp humans live in
specific enclaves, in which there are few or no goblins.
In any case, I'm not talking about the swamp humans, but the
neighboring Doraddi. I do not believe that the swamp dwellers are
Doraddi-like in culture.
>IMO, the swamp humans would have to compete with the goblins
>IMO, a expedition could easily be transformed as a raid
>IMO would transform the Doraddi perspective to something less
>than flattering.
Your opinions are mistaken, IMO. I humbly submit that you
don't know what you're talking about re: marshes and swamps.
The fishing is great. The hunting is great -- lots of fine
edible birds -- ducks, geese, and swans. If you can stand eating
muskrats and other aquatic rodents, that's fine, too. There's few
predators dangerous to man -- maybe a few alligators or big snakes,
but if you stay in a canoe not much can really hurt you. There are
lots of edible plants in a swamp. Best of all, the marsh has a
definite boundary -- a day's travel and you're back home on terra
firma. Praise Pamalt for the blessing of the marshes.
Okay. I've admittedly overstated the case to make my point.
There _are_ goblins in the swamps, and some bad predators. Plus,
people _do_ sometimes get swamp fever and die. But you can get killed
back on the plains, too, and you _never_ get nice fat geese back
there, or tasty alligator meat.
Dave D.
>Mike Dickison wonders about Esrolia. I imagine not only are they
>matriarchal, but also matrilineal, which no doubt confuses and
>annoys other Orlanthi. The "women rule" bit is probably in many ways
>a stereotype -- I suspect men would still be in charge of armies,
>for example.
While the "women rule" bit of Esrolia may or not be a
stereotype, I would expect to find women in command of their armies,
but men forming the bulk of the armed forces. As John Keegan and
others have pointed out, for basically unknown reasons (though _lots_
of theories are bruited about) it is exceedingly rare, with only the
most trifling exceptions, for women to go to battle. Women make
inspiring war leaders, are often excellent generals and officers
(even on a small scale, as with ship captains and the like), incite
their men to war, work hard on the home front to ensure that their
men have the weapons and supplies they need, and even shame their
husbands, childrens, and fathers into going to fight; BUT women don't
engage in mass combat. [Side non-Gloranthan note: this does not seem
to apply to individualized one-on-one combats, such as fighter
pilots. I predict the future will see air force personnel moving
closely to the 50-50 ratio, with the army and navy never ever
reaching near it.]
While Glorantha is not earth, and there are plenty of female
warriors, I don't think, for instance, that the Sartar City Militia
has anything _near_ 15% women among its ranks. The Lunar Empire
probably has proportionally more women soldiers than any other large
nation in Glorantha, because of their culture -- maybe _they_ have
15% women soldiers. Certainly they have entire units of women (the
Hell Sisters being the most obvious, but not the only one).
Anyway, my point was that I think that the nepotism and
desire for control on the part of Esrolia's female leaders would
ensure that most of the high military leaders would all be women, but
few of the ordinary soldiers. I don't think that this is why their
army is so incompetent, tho. I rather believe that the Esrolian
army's inferiority stems from the elitism of its rulers -- all the
generals were "born to the purple" as it were, and they are chosen on
the basis of birth, political loyalty, and advantage, rather than
competence. I also suspect that the regiments themselves are largely
seen as bolstering one's factional prestige, so that they are
carefully dressed in gold leaf, with fancy banners and awe-inspiring
fancy (but not particularly effective) weapons. Asphalt soldiers, in
essence. A drill team, not an army.
Guy Hoyle
>Sandy's got some ideas about Kralorelan magic (NOT sorcery), and
>also about the East Isles. We're currently in Kralorela in his
>campaign, and he's tantalized us with tidbits. Pester him so's
>he'll post it here.
David Cake:
>Sandy, consider yourself pestered!
Now see here. I consider it to be my PLAYERS' responsibility
to post info about my campaign on the net, not mine. Especially
because their true motive is just to get me to slip and reveal
something in their futures. Pester Guy, not me.
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6528: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Kitori
6529: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Aeolians
6530: winterg = (George Winter)
- UNSUB LIST
6531: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Henotheism in Maniria
6532: T.J.Minas = (T.J.Minas)
- RE: Orlanth, Resurrection, Humakti Geases
6533: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Armouring geases again
6534: KFC01067 = (Takehiro OHYA)
- re: TradeTalk = Free INT in English
6535: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 08 Oct 1994, part 2
6536: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- Re:Clarification of Swamps.
6537: Mike.Dickison = Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
- Carse to Karse Konversion
6538: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994
6539: FKiesche3 = FKie...@aol.com
- Copy of "Dragon Pass" for Sale...
6540: nh0g+ = (Nils Hammer)
- unsubscribe
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Kitori
Message-ID: <941008091...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Oct 94 09:16:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6528
David Cake takes issue with me suspecting:
> >that the Kitori started
> >off as an all troll grouping, perhaps a single clan, and has grown into a
> >tribe by "adopting" human clans.
> The Sacred marriage implies that the leaders of the clan are both human and
> troll, which is unlikely to happen if one central clan adopts other smaller
> clans.
I didn't say the other clans would be smaller, or that the troll clan would
be "central" in any authority-weilding sense. But I think that if their
the two have a genuinely unified tribal culture, co-evolution is a much more
plausible origin than post hoc merger.
> >> I definately disagree that humans are allowed to join KL, except in
> >> the normal (excruciating) way.
> >I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll-
> >only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity.
> There are inumerable societies that have male only or female only
> cults, and nobody claims that that is going to defeat tribal unity.
Well, for example, Yelm and Dendara have a defined mythological relationship
mirroring the pragmatic one, don't contain _all_ persons of either sex,
and don't act to play up rivalries between distinct clans.
> > Or maybe we should just (cop out by)
> >say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots
> >of AA-like surface darkness magic.
> Much too dull. There are enough founder deities around (though a
> married pair if founder deities is bearable).
That's an non-objection; I could equally well say there are enough Argan
Argar and Kyger Litor worshippers around already. Orlanthi tribes do not,
I believe, have well-developed founder cults as such, though granted they
do have founders. I'm thinking of something which has KL-style "ancestor"
worship shades to it, as well as being a founder cult per se. This is
a cop out in the sense of effectively "relabelling" religious strands to
be more acceptable to all.
> >> I think that blurring the species
> >> distinction like that would be heresy to the KL cult, and that is not a
> >> pleasant thing to contemplate.
> >Of course it is. Whatever else the Kitori are, I'm sure they're heretics.
> As long as you don't mess with the
> fundamentals of the cult - and I think that racial purity is one thing that
> is not going to be skipped over lightly. If they won't let most trollkin
> in, they are hardly going to accept humans.
Since to the vast majority of trolls, being in the same tribe as a human
would be unthinkable (most trolls don't even have tribes, mind you), citing
the attitudes of standard-issue KL cultists is not convincing reasoning.
Note that "creatures of darkness" can be non-excrutiatingly initiated into
KL, into which category the Kitori uz may place their fellow "darkmen".
> And note that the clans do not intermix that much - a clan is
> either human or troll - so as long as AA is calling the shots as far as
> tribal decisions, not a problem.
Yes, a clan can have essentially "private" worship, and/or have a specialised
worship that fits into the larger pattern of the tribe (a la Elmal clans).
However, if you had tribal level worship of KL by all the trolls, and none
of the humans, presumably all worshipping a common ancestor not recognised
by or accessible to the humans, you no longer have one tribe, but two.
Alex.
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Aeolians
Message-ID: <H.ea.how...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 8 Oct 94 11:42:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6529
Nick Eden in X-RQ-ID: 6506
> Having spent some time as an Aeolian heretic I would dispute the idea
> that we have a western mindset. Now it could just be that Nick Brooke's
> version for How the West Was One (I'll try not to give anything important
> away) diverges from the standard, but the standard doesn't seem to exist
> in Greg's published writings anyway.
IMO the HtWW1 Aeolians were formed a bit too close to the KoS article
on Heortlings, but what the heck - with the recent Rokari insurge, all
kind of back to the roots movements could happen.
> The Aeolians are not Westerners. They have an Orlanthi view of the caste
> systems,
Yes, although not that close to KoS p.246f as you presented it in the
caste committee, IMO.
> they regard the Orlanthi pantheon as saints of their church,
> while giving St Rokar, St Dromar and St Geralnt Flamesword pretty short
> short shrift.
And correctly so - they are locally unimportant. The Church of Jonatela,
while quite different from the Aeolians in most respects, wouldn't care
much for these purely Seshnegi Saints either. I doubt any sects worship
St Rokar or St Mardron except the Rokari sect. And they try to reduce
iconodules and overly personalized saint worship in their own ranks...
> Basicly they are culturally Theylan's, who have altered the
> worship of the Invisible God to fit their culture.
This is somewhat correct. Their culture has been altered as well - they
have had a hereditary nobility for the last 1370 years, their warriors
call themselves knights, prefer combat from horseback and in decent armour
over charging their foes in Woad and on foot, they practice a feudal
system, though based on the Theyalan clan system, they build castles
for their lords rather than walled villages (although primitive by
Western standards), they are even more urbanized than the (in this regard
already extremely untypical (for Orlanthi)) Sartarites, and their exposure
to Western ideas has been quite high - God Forgot and the Machine City,
the Trader Princes (of Maniria, not necessarily from southern Seshnela)
have left their traces.
> Just because we heretics regard St CA, the white lady, who the Invisible
> God gave the miraculous powers of healing and ressurection to shouldn't
> be interpreted as meaning that any 'normal' Malkioni would give them the
> time of day, let alone give their beleifs any serious consideration.
This is true. While some Henotheism is quite common among the Malkioni
outside of Loskalm and Tanisor, the Aeolian approach was designed to be
radically different from the Return to Rightness creed.
> To
> be frank I've never encounted a much as heretical as the Aeolians and I
> was VERY surprised not to be burnt at the stake during HtWwO.
David Hall wouldn't have allowed you to reenact the test of Ehilm's Flame...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: win...@iia.org (George Winter)
Subject: UNSUB LIST
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.941008...@iia.org>
Date: 8 Oct 94 03:47:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6530
UNSUB LIST WIN...@IIA.ORG George Winter
---------------------
From: T.J....@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: RE: Orlanth, Resurrection, Humakti Geases
Message-ID: <1994100815...@willow.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Oct 94 17:30:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6532
Further thoughts from Southampton:
Orlath subcults/Women initiates
Orlanth Lux (or Orlanth Lightbringer) is another aspect that should
probably have the 4 Magic Weapon Subcults. It is a bit specialised,
and probably is never very large, but it is more widespread than
Orlanth Victorious, Argrath's Hero-subcult.
As for women in Orlanth, see the Biturian's travels in CoP
for an (unnamed) Orlanthi woman as one of the three examiners at
the Orlanthi Wind Lord making ceremony.
Resurrection
CA resurrection isn't easy to get, either, to all those of
you who feel "its too powerful" as a reusable spell. She gets it
because she is the Primary Healing deity in all Glorantha. But,
even so, her worshippers have hods of restrictions, small temples,
and many calls upon their time and energy.
any priestess with CA resurrect is gonna have so many people
wanting it, it will be a real pain to her, only tolerated (the
hassle that is) because of her oath and dedication to CA.
A last thought: The Truestone/Styx combo isn't meant to be tried
on your own. Your pals make sure you do the ceremonies to get back
all your knowledge etc
---------------------
From: ni...@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Armouring geases again
Message-ID: <941008164...@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 8 Oct 94 18:42:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6533
Nils Weinander writing
I expressed consternation at Humakt's armouring geases
> OK that's
>fair enough, but then why do Humakti have the same stuff? Humakt
>didn't loose his armour in any myth I've heard of.
and got some replies:
Ian:
>Guess that means we'll have to write some!!
hmmm
Sven Erik Sievrin:
>It has to do with the Humakti concept of honour and fair play, I think.
>Many of the geases gives the Humakti extra power in some area while
>making himself weaker in arelated area.
That's more like it. I agree that gift and geas should be matched.
Sandy:
> To show off their courage, or to show that for every benefit,
>there must be a penalty. It's a completely different reason from the
>Yelmalion system.
OK, I give up. There is a valid reason and I don't want to be the
cause of a new moose debate, so I'll rest my case.
_____
Swamp pros and cons:
I tend to agree with Sandy that swamps can be a pretty good place to
stay. Apart from the abundance of things to eat you are rather safe from
your enemies in a swamp: it is notoriously easy to get lost in a big
swamp if you don't know it intimately. It is also difficult to say the
least to move an army, or just about any sizable body of fighhing men,
through marshland.
On the other hand, when it comes to Pamaltelan swamps, don't the slarges
live in them? I thought they weren't your preferrable neighbours.
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: KFC0...@niftyserve.or.jp (Takehiro OHYA)
Subject: re: TradeTalk = Free INT in English
Message-ID: <1994100817...@inetnif.niftyserve.or.jp>
Date: 9 Oct 94 11:05:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6534
Hello to all. I'm a Japanese and reading this ML.
Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 6490
>Ok, this much editorial rambling. I hope that we will get Tradetalk 1
>out this year. If you want to read our stuff before, you will have to
>do it the hard way. BTW, I don't understand all this fuzz - I read and/or
>translate French RQ stuff, too, and my Read French is a meagre 25%.
>And a lot of other continental people have to put up with English material,
>too, if they want to stay up to date - serves you right to share this
>problem once... <g>
Aha, please don't forget us, the inhabitants of the farthest east ^^).
In this country, most translators of Japanese RQ have less than 30%
skill in Read/Write English, the rate of publishing supplements is
slow, so those who wish to stay up to date must toil over reading
English supplements, zines, or Mailing Lists... like me. B-P
To tell the truth, I am one of the translators, so my Read/Write English
is only 25%, too ^^). It is very hard for me to read even this daily,
but in all probability it's worth my labor (I wish so).
In fact, I am very interested in the articles around non-CA resurrection.
>If anybody feels he or she can translate German into fluent English, and
>will be satisfied with a free issue of the magazine as payment, contact
>me, please. I can check for misunderstandings etc, but I can't really do
>a fluent translation.
Assuming that his English is still not fluent, I must give up all my hope
to write fluent English. B-P
-----
Takehiro Ohya KFC0...@niftyserve.or.jp
College of Arts and Sciences, The University of Tokyo.
Languages: Japanese 95/92, English 15/25 , German 03/10.
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 08 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410082...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 8 Oct 94 22:26:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6535
Joerg's short guide to Heortland was welcome. In our campaign we are not
at the building wall battle yet and I plan to let my player take part in
it, so any information about Maniria south of Sartar is extremely
welcome. Belonging to that generation who has never read a single Wyrms
Footnote I do not have the ability to check so much background as you
oldtimers have.
Richard Ohlson and his Tricksters: When checking some old printouts of the
Digest that I have, I found rather many Trickster shrines and just what I
wanted - no myths, alas, but the "quest" to get the spell and the location,
at least. I think it is was numbered 07.02.
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Re:Clarification of Swamps.
Message-ID: <01HI1T07D...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 9 Oct 94 11:26:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6536
>Peter Metcalfe is STILL not convinced that swamps are A-OK.
>>>There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it.
>>I'm not too sure about these examples exemplfying Swamps are good.
>Eat me. Are there ANY "real" swamps or marshes in all of England?
I woulnd't know as I've never been there. I live in Christchurch,
New Zealand which is on the other side of the earth.
>As an inhabitant of a nation possessing same, and a frequent
>visitor to 'em, I hereby state that whatever weird view you have of
>swamps by watching movies or reading old Conan stories are false.
Actually Christchurch does have the distinction of being founded on
a swamp. But do not fear, Sandy, you do not have foot in mouth disease
(it was a false alarm). You see, I was looking at David Dunhamms post the
other day and was about to correct in about the Chinampa's of Tenochtilan
being a floating garden (they're actually reclaimed land from shallow
lakebeds), when I realized that what we're arguing about was the type of
terrain.
You see Christchurch is actually founded on/near marshlands which is
land that composes a high degree of moisture. The type of plants that
actually grow here, are grasses and shrubs and in the wetter areas
semiaquantic flora. Because of this, when I hear the word 'swamp'
it conjures to me the images of the florida keys and the hot dense
mangrove swamps of Hornilio rather amongst other things. Hence the
persistance of my argument that swamps are bad.
Now it appears that the flora of the marshes near the Doraddi (such as the
Sozganjio, Churlwe and the Tondu) actually have a different flora then that
in the Hornilio of the Porlaso, and are somewhat along the likes of the Nile
river delta (say), ie somewhat more hospitable to than _I_ imagined.
hopefully this clears a few things up.
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Carse to Karse Konversion
Message-ID: <1994100814...@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 9 Oct 94 15:03:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6537
**** Info on Karse ****
Thanks to Peter Metcalfe, Nick Brooke, and particularly Joerg for some info
on Karse. Peter pointed out that it had been beseiged once before by
Fazzur, in 1605. Nick pointed me to Midkemia's Carse supplement, and
convinced me it had some respectability. And Joerg gave a plausible
Gloranthan history for the generic background in the supplement.
Well, I found a copy in a second-hand shop today, in mint condition, for
$NZ10 (that's $US6 or about 4 quid). They also had Tulan, the RQ Companion,
and some back issues of Heroes. A good haul... I've just spent a few hours
Gloranthifying Carse, and thought that some notes might be useful for
anyone else who might find a copy. All my own opinion, of course. Let me
know if you disagree or have better ideas.
**** From Carse to Karse ****
Conversion done for 1620-1625, under Lunar occupation. I thought the Lunars
might have learned from the problems in Pavis, and taken over with some
grace and with the support of the inhabitants. Bear in mind this is a very
important seaport to them, and they don't want to mess it up.
1) Languages: Heortlander, though inhabitants often speak Sartarite or
Esrolian. The Sharwen, pro-Esrolian matriarchal supremacists, use
Earthspeech as a secret tongue.
2) Half the city guard has been disbanded and replaced by 100 provincial
veterans, working in partnership with Karsians. The unpopular guard
commanders have been replaced by Lunar sergeants. A Lunar centurion
oversees it all.
3) The Baron's garrison (those that didn't desert or die) has been
scrapped and replaced by 200 lunar troops, on rotation from the regiment's
encampment a few miles upriver. 100 are barracked in the city, 100 in the
castle proper. The shipyards are busy building Lunar galleys.
4) Sagrath the Wizard was killed in the siege: his tower is now the HQ of
Commander Graptolus Redsandal, the military governor who oversees the
Baron's actions and enforces Lunar laws.
5) Lunar scribes have moved into B-2, the docks admin, and are stamping
out smuggling and imposing extra import duties on Esrolian ships and tax
breaks on Etyries merchants.
6) The Sea Goddess is now a Sea Temple, to Choralinthor, Diros, Dormal and
Magasta.
7) D-9 Sadu the Grocer is a Teshnan refugee, a prince in his homeland.
8) There are rather too many alchemists: I've replaced some with a Duck
flophouse, a slave trader, another wine seller, and a few shrines.
9) K-4 the Magician's Guild I've turned into a church and library for
local Aeolians and Western visitors, with a few local scholars and wizards.
10) The bath houses, instead of being seedy brothels are instead places
where Esrolian visitors can talk business.
11) The Warrior's Guildmaster has been replaced by a woman Scimitar of
Yanafal Tarnils, former senior triarch for the occupying regiment now
trying to recover CON after a brush with disease.
12) Q-1 Hugi Olafson should of course be an Uroxi, suspicious of all these
Lunars.
13) Q-4 And Stoneman Took, the halfling tobacconist, should be (of
course!) Stonefeather the Duck, who deals in Porthomekan cigars, supplying
the tobacco of choice for most of Duckpoint.
14) Q-5 I like Albright and Albright better as Scholars of Law, itinerant
Lhankor Mhy lawspeakers exiled from Sartar.
15) T-4 The Royal Guest tavern has of course quickly become the Imperial Guest.
16) Undertakers? Orlanthi would burn their dead, Esrolians have a woman Ty
Kora Tek cultist. I chose the latter, making Digger Troon into Diggeress,
matriarch of the Troon clan.
17) U-18 Sam should be a trollkin.
18) The Caravanserai family of Hazara Khan has become the Heartland
merchants of the Har-Azial family, including Etyries priestess Empsonia
(replacing Abdur). Worthy Outfitters is now an Etyries trade hall.
19) Temple of the Sky God. I scrapped this completely. The Lightbringer
Temple has been cunningly converted into a Seven Mothers temple with an
Orlanth Betrothed shrine in the corner, and most of the locals switched
without a fight. Some still choose to worship Orlanth elsewhere, and a few
have turned the Iron Fist into an Orlanthi resistance group, which have a
real Orlanth shrine in the secret basement of the temple. They get there
through the passageway in Shigga's Tavern and plot at nights.
20) The horrid D&D Thieves' Guild is now the Green Circle Band, a bunch of
clever brigands organised into a criminal gang by the Upright Man, actually
a Krarshti.
21) The Crimson (formerly Emerald) Serpent is actually the Lunar secret
police, made up of spies that were planted in Karse several years ago, and
who helped swing the locals pro-lunar. They have infiltrated the Iron Fist
(in fact, they started it, to keep an eye on troublemakers) and have an
informant in the Sharwen. The Sharwen are not anti-Lunar, but hope they can
use the invaders to get a woman in power.
That's all so far. Despite a rather dated D&D feel to it, Carse seems a
good product, and only required an evening's conversion to make it run.
Hope these notes weren't too boring for those of you who could care less.
I'll post some of my Esrolian notes rel soon.
_________________________________________________________________
Mike Dickison, science writer # Learning is the dictionary, #
Wellington, New Zealand # but sense is the grammar #
adze...@matai.vuw.ac.nz # of science. - Sterne #
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 07 Oct 1994
Message-ID: <941008232...@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 8 Oct 94 23:27:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6538
sandyp (Sandy Petersen):
> The fishing is great. The hunting is great -- lots of fine
>edible birds -- ducks, geese, and swans. If you can stand eating
>muskrats and other aquatic rodents, that's fine, too.
Well, I've eaten muskrat -or "water rabbit", "shore beaver"- as
they tend to call it when it's sold as meat, and can tell you
it's fine... A bit small though...
--
Henk | Henk.La...@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | RuneQues...@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
| In every shell script there's a small one trying to escape.
---------------------
From: FKie...@aol.com
Subject: Copy of "Dragon Pass" for Sale...
Message-ID: <941008211...@aol.com>
Date: 9 Oct 94 01:17:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6539
DRAGON PASS for sale...
Please do not reply to me (FKie...@aol.com), I am just posting this from
another list that I belong to...
--start inserted message--
Date: Thu, Sep 29, 1994 14:05 EST
From: CONS...@vm.ucs.ualberta.ca
Subj: Auction Notice: AH dragon Pass and Chaosium's Arkham Horror
To: FKiesche3
Hi all,
Just a quick notice to let you know I am auctioning off mint copies
of Dragon Pass and Arkham Horror.
If you're interested in these two fine games, please check out
rec.games.board.marketplace or rec.games.frp.marketplace.
If your site does not get these newsgroups, you can contact me
directly at ep...@nyx.cs.du.edu
Eric (ep...@nyx.cs.du.edu)
--end inserted message--
---------------------
From: nh...@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer)
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <8iZsgEu00WB=ICl...@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 8 Oct 94 22:17:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6540
unsubscribe
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Henotheism in Maniria
Message-ID: <H.ea.ZGI...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 8 Oct 94 11:50:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6531
Bernard Langham in X-RQ-ID: 6501
> On Kitori Henotheism:
>> Definately disagree here. Apart from the wisdom of adding yet
>>another group of henotheists to the Kethaela area (as pointed out by
>>someone else, the number of Westerners is getting out of hand).
> Doesn't worry me. There are a lot of Westerners in the area because it was
> conquered by Arkat during the Dawn Age, and is now directly linked via
> lucrative land and sea-going trade routes with Ralios, Seshnela and
> Fronela.
When I tried a circumspect approach to the actual spread of henotheists
in Maniria in the wake of Arkat in the Convulsion Lore Auction Greg
wasn't prepared to have (m)any of them there. The God Learners came, but
they held Esrolia and the south, not the northeastern part of the
Shadowlands.
> I think the Kitori are Henotheist/Stygian because:
> [1] converted to Malkionism by Arkat in Dawn Age;
After Arkat had converted to Humakt, then to Zorak Zoran? Stygian they
are in the sense that they worship Darkness.
> [2] explains presence of Sorcerous Templars -- NB we're told Sorcerers
> can't exist without some kind of Western infrastructure to back them up
I.e. a constant influx of tithe. Now, this could be got through highway
"tolls".
> [3] permits coexistence with Trolls by removing main source of conflict
> (religious disagreements)
Why does this make them Malkioni?
> [4] Trolls remember Arkat fondly (he set up the Shadowlands and left the
> OOO to rule over them)
Arkat reinstalled the OOO, but gave Heortland to the Hendr(e)iki. IMO a
lot of bad blood between these two nations came from this decision.
> and are hip to Kitori Arkatism
sez you.
> [5] I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as anything
> other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist.
Look at God Forgot: Sorcerers, but I'm not sure they ever had a direct
connection to Malkion, apart from Brithini colonists.
Or look at the Third Eye Blue people, who stole secrets from dwarves
(the people of God Forgot did so too, at least in the 2nd Age). Plus
Lunar ones, an inheritance from the Carmanians and their precedessors
in Pelanda.
And then there are sorcerers in a non-rules sense like in the case of
Orathorn, the EWF magicians of Remakerela or the City of 10,000 Magicians
in Aggar.
> In part this stems
> from my liking for Paul Reilly's infamous Twin system. In fact, my version
> of the Kitori invests heavily in Twin theory for its justification, via a
> long and complicated process of reverse-engineering the mechanics of
> Henotheist Sorcery as they differ from, say, Brithini Sorcery and Troll
> Sorcery. Which is too boring to go into right now but stay tuned!
Too boring? The process maybe, but what about the results?
> You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon
> Pass and Kathaela.
When I first went public with my version of Aeolian ideas, I
encountered, well, less than enthusiasm on this list. Apparently
the lack of wizards in RQ2 caused a mindblock in accepting a Malkioni
presence even close to Dragon Pass even when it was clear that sorcery
was right at home in the Holy Country - ever since GoG made Dormal a
member of the Malkioni array, and that _Sir_ Ethilrist is a knight. In
fact, quite a lot of knights feature in old RQ or Glorantha publications
in Dragon Pass - anybody ever wondered about Sir Narib and his company,
from the Sartar magical union?
> I would expect to see many (contrasting) examples of
> it, many different ways of integrating the old ways with the new, in the
> shifting no-mans land between the diehard theist cultures of Dragon Pass
> and the ever-increasing influence of Western civilization marching down
> the loading ramps of the trade ships in Nochet city.
So do I. I have no problem with a Malkioni colony in Porthomeka, and I
am certain that there were Malkioni in Nochet for a long time before
1580. Kethaela wasn't conquered by the Return to Rightness fanatics,
but by the Zistor/Machine God movement, with support from Slontos,
and it had been infiltrated even before Auld Wyrmish was released
upon Dragon Pass.
I'd like to know whom the duTumerines disposed 1582 or so in Nochet
when they bought or otherwise aquired the bishopric of that place. A
Trader Prince bishop from Ralios? If so, who was in office before those
arrived (probably around 1200)? How strong is the Waertagi colony in
the Holy Country? Nochet is one of their ancient ports...
> Tribes adapt, reinvent themselves, find new myths, rethink the old ways.
Like the Sartarite settlers, who came from a densely settled and quite
urbanized region in the Holy Country (some of them already in the OOO's
reign, notably the Colymar from Esrolia).
> I'm not sure
> why you have a problem with this. Though for what it's worth, I think the
> Kitori are more theist than, say, the inhabitants of the Hendriki Kingdom
> of Malkonwal.
This makes me cringe: the Hendriki kingdom was known as the Kingdom of
Heortland. Malkonwal was the name given to the conquered part of it by
Richard the Tigerhearted, after the sunk capital of Malkion in Seshnela.
After 1620 the mention of Malkonwal in Heortland could have worse social
consequences than a cheerful "All Hail the Red Moon" in Geo's.
> They still actively worship their old gods, just under new names.
Then in what way is this henotheist? Or do you mean the added St if
you talk about new names? "St Zorak Zoran guide me!" Nah... I'm not
even that happy with "Saint Issaries" among the Aeolians.
> The old cult structures are still plainly visible.
This is true for the Aeolians, whom I consider to be quite far from
standard 3rd Age Malkionism (not so far from 1st Age Malkionism,
though).
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
X-RQ-ID: Extro
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6541: MOBTOTRM = MOBT...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
- Sun Dome Cowboys Go Peloria
6542: bmason = (Bruce Mason)
- Oh no: Sorcery!
6543: T.J.Minas = (T.J.Minas)
- Humakti Geases (Should have been in yesterdays!)
6544: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Aoelin castes
6545: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Dragonfriend
6546: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 09 Oct 1994, part 1
6547: raphael = (Andrew Raphael)
- Re: Swamp Thing
---------------------
From: MOBT...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Sun Dome Cowboys Go Peloria
Message-ID: <01HI3964E...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 10 Oct 94 09:26:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6541
G'day Everyone,
I have just got back from Necronomicon in Sydney where I ran Mike
Dawson's Embarassment of Riches. Simple plot: Rokari peasants in Jonatela
find a treasure too big to spend) It went down really well, so well in
fact, two guys who played in one of the sessions asked me if they could
come and play it *again*, so they did!
As Necro attracts mainly the "free-form" end of the gamer scene, EoR's format
was ideally suited to such a theme as it was pretty much diceless and the
character sheets were blank peices of paper! "Here's your character sheets,
go to it!" Each PC then had to write down 5 things I'm better at than the
average peasant, 5 things I'm worse, etc. Although Mike had it that they
should be young males 18-25, I let them be *any* age or sex, and had
characters ranging from a 78 year old toothless crone (one-handed; local
priest discovered her Earth Mother gold charm) to a 12 year old kid
(played, incidently, by a 12 year old kid) to the village crazy girl
(played by, yes, a crazy girl). Because everyone knew each
other and were probably related, the players told everyone else all
about their characters, eg. if one of the locals is an inveterate liar,
everyone in village probably knows this as they've grown up with him.
At Necro next year (September 29th - October 2nd) I am hoping to run the
huge 70 player Gloranthan freeform Home of the Bold.
_________________________
Vega, Queen of the Desert
After my initial post on the subject, I have enjoyed the various
speculations and rumours about what's really under Light Lady Vega
Goldbreath's hauberk. For the record, in my vision of Glorantha, Vega *is*
definitely a woman, though she is subject to all the smirks and purile
speculation, particularly after Invictus invoked the "Oh damn, I've just got
that "Love Only Earth Cultists' geas" to conveniently divorce her. (Among
the upper echelons of Sun Dome society, this could be a very common pretext
to get a divorce, unless of course your wife is an Ernalda cultist).
_____________________
Temple of Black Arkat
I am sold by Bernard Langham's concept that the Temple of Black Arkat
is actually not a place, but an excessively trollophile secret society of
human Sorcerors dedicated to the extirpation of Chaos through wholesale
adoption of the Way of Darkness as revealed to humanity by Arkat Kingtroll.
This idea is *amazingly* similar to one John Medway came up with for one
of the NPCs in my scenario "Beyond the Building Wall", which will
appear in issue #13 of TotRM. so amazingly similar, it's gotta be
true!
__________
Correction
Nick Eden in X-RQ-ID: 6506
> Having spent some time as an Aeolian heretic I would dispute the idea
> that we have a western mindset. Now it could just be that Nick Brooke's
> version for How the West Was One (I'll try not to give anything important
> away) diverges from the standard, but the standard doesn't seem to exist
> in Greg's published writings anyway.
Dave Hall actually wrote the HtWwO Aolian Church write-up, with Nick offering
the occasional helpful hint.
Cheers
MOB
---------------------
From: T.J....@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: Humakti Geases (Should have been in yesterdays!)
Message-ID: <1994100913...@willow.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 9 Oct 94 15:53:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6543
This is a section that should have made it into yesterdays message
from me, but time pressure (called a Lunar guard wandering around,
shutting down the system!) forced it out. So, here it is.
HUMAKTI GIFTS/GEASES
My reasoning for not wearing armour, not accepting non-
cult magic etc, would be that Humakt didn't wear any, or need the
healing. (But note that, in CoP, Arroin is stated as the Humakt
cults source of First Aid, presumbably implying that Humakt was
aided by Arroin at some time. I feel that in RQ3, Humakti cultists
should probably be able to learn Treat Poison, too.)
Incidentally, on the subject of Geases for Humakti, remember
all those chaotic guys who worship Humakt? Bet the use no poison
and never take part in an ambush are real bummers for them!
SHAMANIC RESURRECTION
Somebody said (in Friday's Daily, I think) that they prefered
to have their Shamans resurrect people via the Shamanic technique,
not the Divine one. I have a few quibbles with this.
a) Most Shamans aren't powerful enough (IMO) to be able to
resurrect people via the Shamanic route. But its pretty easy for
them to join Daka Fal, and gain the spells that way.
b) Even if players do look at the ritual occuring, how in Hell
are they going to be able to tell the difference between a Shamanic
resurrection and a Daka Fal ceremony (possibly involving Ancestral
summonings anyway)??? Unless one of them is a shaman themselves,
or maybe casts Mystic Vision/Second Sight etc and keeps it up for
the entire (several hour long!) ceremony. It's just a long
stonkingly complex and very magical ceremony to them!
c) Also, if we are to relate to a point someone else made about
Greg's view of Glorantha having about 1/10 the Healing magic we
see in RQ, then I expect the Shamanic option to be even harder!
d) And the standard shamanic technique is probably to intercede
with some stonky Healing spirit anyway, as the alternative (as
has been discussed) is very hard, and liable to major problems.
Remember, Glorantha is different, the Gods are real, everyday
occurrences, and probably 90%+ of the intelligent beings on
Glorantha worship a deity, and receive the benefits thereof.
Therefore, the Divine option is (IMO) the most likely way to
Resurrect your dead friend (either via DI or some spell). Most
Shamans worship gods, even if they treat with them merely as huge
spirits, and that will be the way they will go about gaining a
considerable number of their abilities.
A few other things sprang to mind:-
SAFELSTER CITY STATES
These are the places that I view as the nearest parallel to
the Italian medieval city states, with their commercial rivalry,
and even potential internecine warfare. I'm not sure whether any
of them would be Venetian in flavour (ie Older, possibly more
powerful, and ?more corrupt/decadent) but I'm sure that someone
could do something with this area. In fact, I think it would be
a very good area for an adventure type pack, or series of books
(each detailing a different city say). Lots of easy opportunities
for adventures that aren't just Dungeon bashes, but are spying
missions, trading, diplomacy, kidnap, insurrection, recovery of
missing people/property, etc. Read Shakespeare's Italian plays
for much of the flavour, also some books by Elizabeth Eyre,
featuring an ex-mercenary hero by the name of Sigismondo (Curtains
for the Cardinal, Poison for a Prince and Death of a Duchess are
the titles that I can recall). Also, a tale which amused me when
I read it, Siena has a few massive walls from a huge uncompleted
?C13-C14 cathedral just sitting in the middle of the city. It was
planned to be the largest in the world (outdoing one of its
neighbouring rivals who had just built a cathedral larger than
Siena's current one), with the existing (and now still extant)
cathedral as the nave! However, before more than a few walls could
be built, the Black death struck, and they abandoned the scheme,
lacking money, people and energy for such schemes. But it would
make a great sort of background story for players, this intense
rivalry between the cities.
That's about it for now
Tim
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Aoelin castes
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 9 Oct 94 18:06:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6544
In-Reply-To: <941009081...@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
Jeorg Writes about me writing
> > The Aeolians are not Westerners. They have an Orlanthi view of the
> caste > systems,
>
> Yes, although not that close to KoS p.246f as you presented it in the
> caste committee, IMO.
Well I'd never heard of them before and was going entirely on what Nick
Brooke had written. I'd forgotten you were in that committee as well...
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Dragonfriend
Message-ID: <941009193855_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 9 Oct 94 19:38:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6545
_______
Peter M includes:
> Orlanth Dragonfriend: An EWF Cult. Probably defunct.
Also, almost certainly reconstituted by Argrath.
> Orlanth New Wind: A cult set up by Lokaymadon during the Empire of
> Light. It is dead now but one wonders why the Lunar Empire hasn't tried
> to resurrect this cult to integrate Orlanthi belief better into the
> Empire?
Because they don't want to integrate Orlanthi belief into the Empire. The
Lunars are contesting with the Orlanthi over possession of the Middle Air.
At the present stage, the two rival elements are *alternatives*: you can't
synthesise them. Not many Orlanthi are out integrating Lunar belief into
their tribal religion, are they? (Except, of course, the afore-mentioned
Argrath). Maybe he, and other White Moonies, would see this as a viable way
forward; but to the current Lunar administration it'd look (appropriately
enough) like lunacy. Why compromise when we're ahead?
_________
Nick Eden on Geases:
> He will forever emulate Yelmalio in one specific way. The way may be
> rather trivial - never eat the flesh of bird, or quite important - total
> celibacy, though there's nothing in there as major as Humakt's 'never
> accept healing of any kind'.
Ahem. I think "total celibacy" is a more significant geas for roleplaying
purposes than "never accept healing of any kind". Maybe it's just that I
live in a clan-based campaign, and aspire to a Pendragon chronology...
____
Erik on Humakti
> Humakti kill, but they do not _murder_ per se - at least not the Manirian
> Humakti we all know and love.
Ask Prince Temertain about Sarostip Cold-Eye and his Humakti assassins one
of these days... Oh, you say that wasn't murder "per se"? One man's freedom
fighter...
Quibbling apart, I agree that Humakti Tricksters are about as reasonable as
Humakti Vampires or female Sun Lords.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sun, 09 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410092...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 10 Oct 94 01:08:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6546
Really a non-Glorantha question, but anyway:
Is there anyone who knows if there exists something similar to this
digest for White Wolf's games, or for Empire of the Petal Throne?
Glad for any help in that regard!
And thanks for more C/Karse info!
Erik
---------------------
From: rap...@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Re: Swamp Thing
Message-ID: <1994101002...@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 10 Oct 94 22:37:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6547
san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) writes:
>There are plenty of people who live in swamps and love it. There are
>swamp Arabs along the coast of the Red Sea, who have reed boats and
>hunt marsh boars. There are the bayou folk of Louisiana. There are
>the Seminole swamp indians of the Everglades.
Don't forget Pogo & Albert. :-) They'd make great characters to filch for
wyter personalities.
Really, I think the dislike of swamps & the insistence on draining them is
a side-effect of civilisation. You can't build a city in a swamp unless
you drain the swamp first. Cultures that aren't interested in building can
use a swamp without destroying it.
--
Andrew Raphael <rap...@research.canon.oz.au>
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
---------------------
From: bma...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Bruce Mason)
Subject: Oh no: Sorcery!
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410090...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: 9 Oct 94 08:15:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6542
Hi Folks, first time I've been back online for 3 years. Last time I was
here this was the RQDigest and *everyone* talked about rules. Things
have certainly changed. Anyhow, rather than stumble into the midst of
ongoing decisions I'ld like to start a new track on an ongoing project of
mine --- the subject says it all. I'll send it in 3 batches so as not to
take up too much space and and to allow easy skipping for those so
inclined.
This is of course yet another attempt at Gloranthan sorcery. I'll append
meta-comments at the end of the final chunk but the basic ground rules
are these:
1) A playable system.
2) One that does not totally invalidate all those sorcery supplements...
3) One that draws on the various Gloranthan principles we all love.
4) One that maintains the concept of sorcery as a spiritual/intellectual
pursuit.
Some of this comes from a late-night conversation with Sandy Petersen at
Convulsion, particularly the concept of the ``vessel'' which I've fitted
into my Gloranthan paradigm.
The Concept
-----------
There is as much of a difference between a sorceror and a
sorcery user as there is between a Shaman and a person who knows ``Uncle
Igran's lucky sword spell'' (Bladesharp 2), or a priest and an initiate.
In RQ3 and RAG (RQ Adventures in Gloranthan) this was done by forbidding
certain manipulation skills to commoners. Instead I use the concept of
the ``Vessel.'' This is a Theyalan term for to them a sorceror is a
meldek or ``Empty Vessel.'' It possible comes from one of the aphorisms
of Malkion who stated that ``for the grace of God to fill your cup you
must first empty it.'' This is mundanely taken to refer to the casting
away or forgetting of pagan magics.
So what is the Vessel. In a sense it is the spiritual or ``hidden'' self
of the wizard. This is a concept usually applied to shamans or mystery
cults (I'm talking real world as well as Glorantha here) in which an
iniatory ritual can awaken a spiritual entity associated with that
person. In a sense we can draw a threefold relationship between a type
of magician and her relation to her hidden self.
The Shaman: awakens her hidden self --- the fetch. Partnership.
The Priest: sacrifices her hidden self to her God. Sacrifice.
The Wizard: controls her hidden self. Enslavement.
My concept then is that for a person to become a sorceror they undertake
a lengthy course of study and enlightenment in order for them to prepare
for a great ritual known as ``The Emptying of the Vessel.'' Once the
sorceror has successfully completed this she is set apart from others
spiritually and socially, for the vessel is what allows her to control
the secrets of sorcery.
Building a Base.
----------------
There are certain game systems I've modified over the
last 10 years which have become inextricably linked to my concept of
sorcery so I'll summarize them here. Some of these have surfaced in
recent Chaosium publications &/or RAG, which is not unsurprising for we
are all working from the same base.
1) Always round up.
2) Specials. No longer exist. Criticals only.
3) Criticals. A critical result is 1/10th of the skill success chance.
(cf The Nephilim.) Criticals are generally downgraded. For example in
combat the standard critical result is ``roll weapon damage twice.''
3a) Critical expansion. For skills in 100-199% range critical is 2/10ths
skill%. Eg climb 143% = critical 30%. (143/10 = 14.3 = 15 * 2 = 30%).
For skill in 200-299% range critical is 3/10ths etc.[1]
4) The resistance table no longer exists. All stats are compared using
``opposed rolls.''[2]
5) Opposed rolls are introduced. I expect most people are familiar with
this concept from Pendragon or its partial introduction in RAG. Quite
simply opposed rolls are a unified method for comparing skills and
abilities in a contest situation. Basically all parties roll percentile
dice and the best result wins. So how do you define the best result?
Critical beats everything;
Normal beats failure or fumble;
fail loses unless opponent fumbles in which case you win by default;
fumbles always lose.
It can be seen then that there are 3 possible outcomes:
both parties lose --- in which case nothing changes.
one wins and one loses --- obvious really.
both parties make roll --- a tie. In this case the *highest* roll
wins. If both parties roll the same then treat it as both parties lose
and try again.[3]
5a) Stats contests are resolved using opposed rolls. Simply you
multiply the stat by 5 and then pit the stats against each other. It is
a good idea to actually have these written on the character sheet.[4]
6) The concordance relationship:
1 stat point = 5% = 1 MP = 1 HP.
End of Part 1
-------------
This is long enough already. The basic method to casting
sorcery is an opposed roll of sorceror's skill% vs. the MPs in the spell
(see concordance rule 6 --- skill% vs MPs*5%). I'll explain the nuts and
bolts of this next and finally explain the role of the vessel. As I say
this has been played over 10 years and evolved considerably as it went
along, a very early version even appeared in Heroes under a pseudonym
where it was so badly edited that even I couldn't figure it out!
I've just left my gaming group in the UK behind and have got no one to
play with out here :-( so this seemed like a good time to put it out for
comments. If you're not interested in rules please ignore this rather
than flaming me.
===================
Footnotes:
---------
[1] There are several reasons behind this change. First it simplifies
the opposed roll system. Secondly it is easier to run with new players
who won't have skills over 100%. Thirdly it allows a redefinition of
skill mastery (over 100%). Finally there is upwards compatibility with a
high-level HeroQuest game in which you can compare types of critical.
[2] This looks controversial I know, but junking the resistance table
was popular at the RQrules panel at Convulsion. Basically why have two
systems when one will do? Interestingly Nephilim goes the other way and
uses the resistance table to compare skills/5. Both options have their
advantages.
[3] This is the one change that tends to throw long-term RQ players. The
justification is statistics, game gets very quirky if lowest number
rolled wins. RAG came up with the rule ``person who made their skill
roll by the most wins.'' This is very handy for skills over 100 but it
takes so much longer to work out (I know I've tried GMing it) that I
don't think it's worth the extra hassle. Also my players prefer the high
roll wins rule over all others I've tried.
[4] I try to avoid stat*X rolls where X is some random number deriving
from how difficult the roll should be. This is purely for maths sake,
generally the multiplications there are in a game, the worse. But that's
just personal preference. I would rather be able to say ``make a
strength roll at -20%'' than to have to say ``make a STR*3 roll'' then
wait whilst everyone tries to figure out what 14*3 comes to and was 47 a
success?
===========================================
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6548: andy = (Andy Campbell)
- The Red mood (again)
6549: davidc = (David Cake)
- Kitori and Pamalt
6550: MOBTOTRM = MOBT...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
- Lost Subber
6551: guy.hoyle = guy....@chrysalis.org
- RUNEQUEST DAI
6552: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- stuff
6553: erisie = (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 10 Oct 1994, part 1
6554: 100116.2616 = (David Hall)
- Before the X-Files start...
6555: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Shamanism, HtWwO credits
6556: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- slarges
6557: davidc = (David Cake)
- Those damn Kitori and Arkati, still
---------------------
From: an...@bonsai.demon.co.uk (Andy Campbell)
Subject: The Red mood (again)
Message-ID: <17....@bonsai.demon.co.uk>
Date: 10 Oct 94 11:55:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6548
I'm pretty sure the Red Moon should be visible from all over the
surface of Glorantha.
Take a look in Elder Secrets, this shows a view of the sky of
Glorantha looking up from the centre of Magasta's Pool. The Red moon
is clearly visible. The description here suggests to me that the
moon is basically visible from anywhere, anytime. I assume the
Glowline is a boundary on the mystical influence of the Moon.
---------------------
From: MOBT...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Lost Subber
Message-ID: <01HI4P4DB...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 11 Oct 94 10:11:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6550
G'day,
Just got back one of my envelopes from my Tales #12 mail-out marked
"address unknown, return to sender" (Elvis song, yes?). The subber is
Kingsley Gardner from Western Australia. The last address I have is
17/169 Railway Pde. Mt Lawley, WA 6050. If anyone knows Mr Gardner could
you ask him to get in touch so I can send him the latest issue of our
magnificent mag.
Cheers
MOB
---------------------
From: guy....@chrysalis.org
Subject: RUNEQUEST DAI
Message-ID: <941010111...@chrysalis.org>
Date: 10 Oct 94 10:18:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6551
RR> Guy Hoyle >Sandy's got some ideas about Kralorelan magic (NOT
RR> sorcery), and >also about the East Isles. We're currently in
RR> Kralorela in his >campaign, and he's tantalized us with tidbits.
RR> Pester him so's >he'll post it here. David Cake: >Sandy, consider
RR> yourself pestered!
RR> Now see here. I consider it to be my PLAYERS' responsibility to post
RR> info about my campaign on the net, not mine. Especially because
RR> their true motive is just to get me to slip and reveal something in
RR> their futures. Pester Guy, not me.
Oops. That'll show me for posting messages under the influence of a
coupla Foster's. The big oilcans, not the itty-bitty-bottles.
Okay, here's some things to tantalize you. Sandy claims that Kralorelan
magic is skill based. Two examples he gave us. One was a neat map that a
Kralorelan showed us; when you discussed a city, it lit up, rivers
flowed, paths to distant cities showed themselves. Obviously the
mapmaker had a high skill level.
Another example was if someone had a high Writing skill, he could write
the word for "fire" on a slip of paper; when the recipient read it, he
could set the paper on fire.
The former example is a high-magic effect, and undoubtedly involves the
sacrifice of POW; the latter is a low-magic example, involving magic
points.
I don't know much else about this form of magic (nor do our characters,
who are Vikings, dammit!) (Except for my character, a former Herd Man,
of course).
Sorry, Sandy, I'll be more careful next time.
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 44 * Happy Fun Ball: Still legal in 14 states.
---------------------
From: eri...@utu.fi (Sven *Erik Sievrin)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 10 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410102...@polaris.cc.utu.fi>
Date: 10 Oct 94 23:44:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6553
Wonderful idea! We need something like this for sorcerers - only I
dislike the tendency to follow the trend "sorcerers ar bad" "enslavement"
is not a pretty word, compare to the very positive "partnership" for
shamans.
The main thing that strikes me while reading the rest of your article is
"With these changes, why not swap 1D100 for 1d20? Calculations would be
much easier, and what do we have to loose?" (Except it being very easy
for new, and not only new, players to understand the concept of "she has 35%
chance of success" something which may actually be very important,
when I think of it).
And rules do not disturb me at all - I confess I still use them while
playing (nowadays a kind of sin in certain circles :-/).
(If you do not get gregged, you may get nicked! :-) And some people would
call a soldier a murderer as well - and they may well be right.....)
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Shamanism, HtWwO credits
Message-ID: <941010213319_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Oct 94 21:33:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6555
_______________
Andrew Raphael:
> You can't build a city in a swamp unless you drain the swamp first.
Tenochtitlan: biggest city in the world in its heyday. (Probably).
_________
Tim Minas said, after a reasonable summary,
> Most Shamans worship gods, even if they treat with them merely as huge
> spirits, and that will be the way they will go about gaining a consider-
> able number of their abilities.
Yeah. But that statement is a God Learnerism of the first order. Shamans
don't have to be "non-Shamanic" (as the RQ rules and your commentary would
imply) to Resurrect or contact deities, etc. It's a normal and natural part
of Shamanic practice. Only the foolish God Learners ever drew a distinction
between talking to the teeny-weeny sword spirits that teach Bladesharp and
talking to the Great Big Sword Spirit who may give you Sever Spirit. Sure,
it's more difficult to do the latter, as you'd expect. Sunspear is harder
to obtain than Ignite! But it's still Shamanism, and not "Divine Magic".
_______
Nick E:
> Well I'd never heard of them before and was going entirely on what Nick
> Brooke had written.
I'll clarify this. I read David Hall's Aeolian write-up and thought it was
a good thing. I may have added commas and improved spellynge a little. But
all of the creative work was his. Credit where it's due.
My sect write-ups, for the record, were the Pelorian/Fronelan bloc (Lunar,
Carmanian, Arrolian, Syanoran, Hrestoli Idealist) and the Castle Coasters.
David wrote all of the rest, and Greg provided helpful feedback and extra
inspirations. I believe we intended to put authors' attributions in rough
order of contribution on the finished versions, but frankly that was the
last thing we were worrying about in the week before Convulsion.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: slarges
Message-ID: <01HI368ZK...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 10 Oct 94 10:56:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6556
Nils W:
------
>On the other hand, when it comes to Pamaltelan swamps, don't the slarges
>live in them? I thought they weren't your preferrable neighbours.
Nope. The Slarges live in Wongarissi to the West of Pamaltela. Dunno
too much about them. As the land is plains like but more prone to
Dinosaurs it appears they like to inhabit dry areas. Mind you this is one area
of glorantha, I would like to know more about (from a safe distance of course!)
I know the slarges culture is obviously based around the whims and curiousity
of the big'uns and their magic ranges from Shamanism to Sorcery(!) and yet they
have no observable cities or urban settlements. I'm thinking that the
philosopy of the big ones basicly revolves around experimenting with the world
as such and the little ones are their children to obey. I don't think they
have any gods to worship (although their shamans will know of some big
spirits). Does anybody have more info about them other than whats been said of
in elder secrets?
--Peter Metcalfe
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Kitori and Pamalt
Message-ID: <1994101012...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 11 Oct 94 04:58:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6549
Joerg on Pamalt
>Your average mythophile thinks he has a right to get his heroic clash,
>or at least a Trickster cop-out. A lot of the cautionary tales are
>unpopular because they resemble the unpopular real-life ones too
>closely, I'd guess. Thus the Doraddi "don't let anything unusual happen"
>style of life doesn't feed the roleplayers' urge for action. Let's
>admit it - we want Orlanth in his fight, so that's what we (and his
>worshippers) get.
I think that you are misinterpreting Pamalt and the Doraddi. The
"don't let anything unusual happen" is certainly part of Doraddi culture,
but they have their overexcitable hero wanna-bes too, the Vangono cult. The
big difference is that they aren't in charge, so fighting on a large scale
is uncommon. Pamalt is a war leader as well as a wise peace time chief, but
he discourages war.
But there is certainly adventure potential among the Doraddi - it
is just differently directed. Single evil villains (especially wicked
sorcerers or chaotic monsters) are more common than wars.
To compare Pamalt and Orlanth again - If we compare the "violence
is always an option"/"there is always another way" to Doraddi myth, Vangono
embodies the first, Pamalts wife and mother-in-law the second, and Pamalt
is the wise chieftain who can balance both. To make another comparison, if
we compared the Ring of Pamalt to the Lightbringers, much of Orlanths place
is taken by Vangono, while Pamalt has elements of Orlanth and Ginna Jar.
There is a long essay of mine on this topic waiting in the Digest
queue - I hope Henk sends it out soon (Henk - if you are still trying to
work out where to split it, split just before the line containing only the
words 'The Wanderers').
On Joergs City List
- this is very useful, I liked it a lot.
>IMO the House of Black Arkat is situated somewhere north of the Kingdom
>of Malkonwal, since I cannot imagine that the du Tumerine Rokari would
>have tolerated this nest of heresies for long.
There are an awful lot of heretics! I think the Rokari achieve
political rule - but I do not think that they have the time to consolidate
religious rule. In the short time that the Rokari run the place, they
hardly have the time to be disbanding every minor temple.
> Compare the map in Uz Lore
>p.33. The IMO most likely place for the House of Black Arkat would be in
>the neighbourhood of Smithstone, roughly at the place where a tributary
>forks north from the Marzeel River, into Sun Dome County. This is
>conveniently equidistant from both the Troll Woods and the Shadow Plateau,
>in a region not infested by other Henotheists or Stygians, close enough to
>cause trouble with Yelmalio worshippers, and within reach for human Kitori
>who want to study there rather than in their woods.
>
I still think that it could easily be farther South, but this is an
OK position. As long as it is out of troll territory, as the trolls already
have their own Arkat temples.
>David and I disagreed whether this necessarily included worship of (other)
>troll deities by the "initiates". Opinions?
>
I second Joergs call for further opinions.
Bear in mind that we are not talking about the Arkat cult in
general, but specifically about the Temple of Black Arkat, which is an
offshoot of the troll Arkat cult.
>>> The Troll Adoption Rite (Book of Uz pp 34-35) is their supreme sacrement.
>
>> A plausible idea, as Arkat himself underwent it, and did particularly well.
>> (see Jonstown Compendium fragment in Troll Gods). It seems unlikely to be
>> common in a cult with no troll members, regarded disdainfully by most
>> trolls, though.
>
>True. The greatest problem I see is to find an adoptive mother within
>the cult, to perform this ritual.
>
But in the Arkat cult within troll territory, it would be much
easier, and the 'supreme sacrament' becomes more common. An interesting
idea.
[Kitori religion]
>IMO Orlanth would be tossed together with Heler into a weather and
>farming god, and maybe a few minor deities from Orlanth's Stead would
>receive the same worship as in Sartar. Ernalda/the Grain Goddess most
>likely are revered as one cult, without any sovereignty aspects - these
>are held by the Kyger Litor priestesses of the troll half of the tribe.
I agree with this conception of Orlanth worship, and note that as forest
dwellers, who live more by hunting, fishing, gathering than by grain based
agriculture, both Orlanth Thunderous, Heler, and the Grain Goddess are not
so important.
I agree that the KL priestess is Queen of the Tribe, but I think
that Ernalda is still quite important. I think that to the Kitori Ernalda
is thought of primarily as the Queen of the Woods.
>
>Such a society wold be extremely individualistic, and tending to shamanism
>rather than henotheism, which craves some civilisatory infrastructure, IMO.
Definately agree. Shamanism has less of the Kolating tradition, and
somewhat of a Dehori tradition, but mostly contacting the various forest
spirits. This is among the humans of course, the trolls differ from normal
practice mostly by the Argan Argar prevalence. Maybe the trolls are into
spiders.
>The Arkati sorcerers could fill the niche occupied by smiths operating
>hidden woodland forges in Real Earth myths and fairy tales - the lack of
>need for charcoal is one of the most severe differences between Glorantha
>and an Iron Age (iron producing) world.
>
The trolls think of smiths rather differently - they are even more
associated with magic, and fequently villainous (they use the frightening
magic of fire).
Still a valid thought.
Cheers
Dave
>-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: stuff
Message-ID: <941010175...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 10 Oct 94 05:50:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6552
Paul Snow:
>Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi
>way, prevent resurrection?
Excellent question. Because most roleplayers come from a
modern society which has decided that man's "life" centers in the
brain, most roleplayers assume that the same must be true of their
characters as well. I've tried to claim before that the liver is
where the soul is centered. The heart is another claimant.
Maybe because almost everyone pegs the brain as the logical
choice I should just give up and agree that the head is the site from
which resurrection starts. On the other hand I _like_ the idea that
to prevent resurrection you've got to do a little more than lop off
the head and carry it off (like excise the heart).
Joerg
>Insect??? Both Alex and I ought to qualify as mammalian life forms,
>primates, not children of Gorakiki.
Hah. I've seen ye both. "Stick Insect" is the word. You,
Alex, and John Cleese.
>Any elemental division of pantheons seems alien to the Doraddi.
Agreed. The little bit that does seem to creep into their
doctrines I suggest are fossilized bits of Six Legger dogma.
>What about the coastal Pamaltelans? Umathela has imported Genertelan
>creed, Fonrit is dominated by the Garangording spirits of oppression
>and city gods. What about Laskal, Maslo etc.?
In the first place, of course, there _are_ no coastal
Pamaltelans. At least, as a group. It's kind of like classifying all
"Asians" together into one category. But I know you know this.
UMATHELA: the Umathelans primarily worship deities that are
recognizably of Genertelan descent. However, the Orlanthi of Sartar
probably have more in common with the Jonatings than either group
shares with the Umathelan Orlanthi. These forest-dwelling barbarians
know of the Lightbringer mythos, and worship all the Lightbringers.
They are close allies of the forest elves, sometimes even subsidiary
to them. The various barbarian tribes are associated with particular
rivers. Particularly large tribes control an entire river system,
while others only command a single tributary. The coastal city-states
are recognizably Western in origin, though they are much less
centralized than the Genertelan churches. This might possibly be
because Umathelan nations are small, so no "state" church has much of
a chance to inflict its doctrines over a wide area. One fairly
widespread church claims to recognize a unity with itself and the
Holy Rokari Church, but I don't think this belief is reciprocated as
of yet.
FONRIT has its own array of solar and other gods. Equivalents
of Yelm, Lodril, and Dayzatar are all worshiped here, along with the
dark deities of Ompalam, Jraktal, and even Ikadz.
LASKAL, to forge a stereotype, is kind of like a "nice"
Fonrit. That is, slavery is not the underpinning of society, but
there are still problems. Piracy, for instance. And Kimos is a
nightmare. Inland there are jungle tribes, but these would not be
considered "civilized" or worthy of study by most Genertelans.
MASLO, like most of Pamaltela, is organized into city-states
as the highest order of civilization. Each state is separated from
its neighbors by stretches of jungle, and each state is in essence
its own little culture, with its own beliefs and creeds. Of course,
to an outsider, there is a certain unifying oneness to all these
states, but they themselves tend to see the differences, not the
similarities. Both Elamle and Onlaks are under a great deal of
pressure, and humanity's existence here may be tenuous. (Elamle is
cursed by the Mother of Mothers, and Onlaks' perpetual war with the
Gargualian elves is actually quite serious.)
Dave Pearton:
>do the Brithini and dwarves have what the theistic cultures would
>recognise as a soul.
I think that many theistic cultures believe that _everybody_
has a soul. I would say that a heretic dwarf who joined a
lightbringer cult could be resurrected through CA magic. For that
matter, I'd allow a Brithini who'd spent his lifetime persecuting
lightbringer cults to be resurrected through CA magic (though I might
inflict a spirit of retribution on the healer afterwards).
>The proposal for inverted pyramids and other weird mezoamerican type
>stuff for the KOI came from the _old_ daily, before Henk took over.
I'm comparatively new to the daily. Only really been here
since last November or so. I have no objections to inverted pyramids
in Bliss in Ignorance, but I am a bit stumped as to why inverted
pyramids are considered to be mesoamerican. I think that Bliss in
Ignorance is thought to be aztec-like because they are known to have
engaged in large-scale blood sacrifice before the trolls took over.
The trolls, of course, transformed these into highly complex
gladiator games, and charged admission. Nowadays, the Kralori
mandarins have ousted the trolls, so the worst of these outrages are
past. On the other hand, I predict that Bliss in Ignorance supports a
large number of highly peculiar sports. They may, for instance, be
the only large-scale human community to play trollball.
Alex, re: the Doraddi
>So how do they regard blood relatives _not_ in their lineages, then?
Technically, the lineages only determine marriagability. In
practice, of course, different tribes and areas add all kinds of
baggage onto this basic concept. Or maybe it's just that all the
Doraddi agree on the lineages determining marriagability, whatever
else is also determined by them.
In most Doraddi cultures, sharing a lineage does not mean
automatic friendship or even friendliness. If anything, they tend to
be friendlier to folks from _another_ lineage rather than their own.
Hence, blood relations and in-laws are more important in most social
interactions. But on the other hand, the lineages determine who is
_able_ to become your in-law, so they matter too. It's all a big
mix-up. In addition, despite the huge respect and honor given the
elderly, most of the old men and women are tucked away neatly in the
oasis villages, where you don't have to deal with them on an everyday
basis, so the large extended family is not so much a part of the
Doraddi relationships as one might expect. "Honorary" family members
are more the norm, as exemplified in a recently-posted Pamaltelan
tale in which Pamalt was addressed as "cousin", "nephew", and "uncle"
by all sorts of folks to whom he was technically no relation.
Peter Metcalfe:
I'd like to publicly acknowledge my shame at falsely accusing
Peter of hailing from perfidious Albion in my last posting. He is, of
course, a noble New Zealander, pure in motive and clean of limb.
Nils:
<On the other hand, when it comes to Pamaltelan swamps, don't the
>slarges live in them? I thought they weren't your preferrable
>neighbours.
No (as in "no they don't live in swamps" you're right about
their being undesirable neighbors). Actually, slarges would probably
die in swamps. They live in arid grasslands, over in Tarien. They are
open-country creatures, though since they're intelligent and even
metal-working (i.e., more highly technologically advanced than their
human neighbors) once they've made their way to jungles, mountains,
or forests they'll probably be able to invade such territory.
Slarges pretty much prevent human contact with the swamps of
Hornilio, so all my comments praising swamps and marshes in the daily
should be taken as praise of Sozganjio only. Of course, some humans
have visited Hornilio, but these were mostly ship-borne, visiting the
Worm Sea from further north.
Bernard:
> I actually have enormous difficulty imagining a Sorceror as
>anything other than Malkioni, or at the very least Henotheist.
Joerg:
>Look at God Forgot: Sorcerers ... Orathorn ... Peloria ... Third Eye
Blue, etc..
First, a minor technical point: I'd like to popularize the
term "wizard" for use with practitioners of sorcery who serve in an
organized religion. I.e., technically, no "sorcerer" is Malkioni, at
least not a very good one. But presumably the point that Bernard is
making is that the sorcerers learned their magic from Malkioni. I'd
like to elaborate on a number of exceptions to this:
1) The magician clan of Orathorn. I do not believe them to be
Malkioni or any other recognizable breed. Perhaps they do not
practice "true" sorcery, but some other kind of magic.
2) Most of the sorcerers of Peloria. While the Pelorian
wizards may have originally learned their sorcery from Carmania, they
are today neither Malkioni nor henotheist.
3) The sorcerers of Fonrit. These fellows almost certainly
learned their magic from the God Learners, but there is little trace
of the Invisible God here today. Sorcery is considered in most cities
to be simply a professional job, much like being a healer, slaver, or
politico. It's almost not considered "magic" at all, in the same
sense that Rune spells are such. Despite this pragmatic approach to
sorcery (or maybe _because_ of it), the Fonritian sorcerers are
notoriously inferior in skills and talent to "real" wizards, such as
those from Umathela or the hated Vadeli.
4) Speaking of which -- the Vadeli are by definition
non-Malkioni -- anti-Malkioni, if you will -- and are fine sorcerers.
5) Kralorela and the East Isles also practice magic that is
loosely termed "sorcery", but in fact has nothing in common with
Western sorcery. This would probably be more obvious if there were
any Western sorcerers in contact with the East, so that the
differences were more obvious. For now, we should just call the
Kralori magic "mysticism", not sorcery.
Nick Brooke:
>Quibbling apart, I agree that Humakti Tricksters are about as
>reasonable as Humakti Vampires or female Sun Lords.
Which is to say at any one time in Glorantha, there's at
least _one_ of each of these critters running around. Just like
there's _one_ soft-hearted Death Lord somewhere.
---------------------
From: 10011...@compuserve.com (David Hall)
Subject: Before the X-Files start...
Message-ID: <941010212753_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Oct 94 21:27:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6554
Reaching Moon Megacorp:
Just thought I'd better let you know that I no longer have any copies of
the Sog City
Guide left. The last copies just went to France and Sweden.
I still have plenty of copies of Tales #11 & #12, The RQ-Con Compendium, &
Jar-Eel
T-shirts (though I've not got many XL's left).
Also, Martin Crim is correct concerning the Book of Emperors.
Unfortunately, Chaosium
have changed their plans since issue #12 was put together. It is now
expected to be
re-released at RQ-Con. I hope to bring back some masters so that I can sell
it from the
UK.
God Learners and stuff:
I never got my chance to reply on this - but that's my fault. It will no
doubt come around
again one day...
However, in the process of putting together a posting I came up with some
ideas
around the Hill of Gold.
Hill of Gold ideas:
I think this is an example of heroquesting and of the linking of two
separate myths to
create a new mythical truth.
I think the first myth is where Elmal, the loyal thane, pays homage to
Orlanth, his
Chieftain, and is armed by Orlanth. However, in the Yelmalion version
Yelmalio shows
off his new fire powers, fights Orlanth, loses his spear, but cannot be
cowed or forced
into submission by Orlanth.
The second myth is a Yelmic myth where the loyal son goes to seek
acceptance from
his father, Yelm, and is tested along the way. In the Yelmalio version
things go a bit
awry (with Zorak Zoran and Inora), but Yelmalio eventually makes it to the
Hill of Gold
and is accepted by Yelm as his son.
This would have first been accomplished by some heroic type, probably at
the behest
of his clan, with clan support, and IMO with the co-operation of Yelmic
missionaries. It
would have been a very dangerous quest, partially into the unknown and
requiring
various preparations and rituals to gather items and weapons to help him
along his
journey (including fire powers). On completion of the quest the heroic type
would then
form a hero cult to teach others how he accomplished the quest. In this way
the new
truth is spread and converts gained.
What is the real truth of this? I don't know! Maybe the Yelmalions are
really
resurrecting the original myth split into two when Elmal was constructed by
evil Orlanthi
heroquesters. Or maybe they are just resurrecting the previously
resurrected
construction... or even a... no, never mind. Unless the truth has been
written down
somewhere, like in the Blue Book of Zzabur or on the God's Wall, or if
someone like
Ralzakark or Farang Farosh remembers then we'll never know! And all they'll
tell us is
what the truth was at that point in time.
I could post my Vantaros Yelmalio story from HotB if anyone is interested.
Humakti in the Lismelder tribe (from way, way, back - at least two weeks):
I reckon that a Lismelder tribesman or woman initiated into the cult of
Indrodar cuts
themself off from their previous life and from their kin. To them he or she
dies. You can
devote yourself better to Death if you are already dead!
This is down to my peculiar view of the Humakti. I can't quite accept the
idea of people
being initiated one day into Humakt and then returning to clan life the
next. I also find
it hard to accept solitary Humakti who only have to turn up to a temple
three or four
times a year in order to remain attuned to the inner mysteries and truths
of Death.
I think being initiated should mean a bit more. So in my campaign when you
are
initiated into Humakt you join a temple of Swordbrothers - your new kith
and kin.
Previous ties are formally cut (but not informally - it's only a
ceremony). The duties of
the temple include protecting the tribe from enemies and from the denizens
of the
Upland Marsh. However, individuals are also hired out as housecarls to
Chieftains, and
this is the way I get PC Indrodari back into the campaign!
Esrolia:
I believe that Esrolia is ruled by women. Robert Graves has written some
interesting
stuff on how this might work - see the opening chapter of The Golden
Fleece. I m sure
that women command the armies, surrounded by their Babeester Gor Axe
Maidens.
However, the majority of the army is probably male: foreign mercenaries;
effete Esrolian
Humakti; and lots of peasant militia.
Karse. I only have a little information on the city. I think that the city
is actually New
Karse, a new port was built under the auspices of Tarkalor Trollkiller
(KoS, p43 & what
I remember from when I visited Chaosium - I may be wrong). The population
is 6K.
During the siege in 1619 there were at least four unsuccessful assaults on
the city
before it fell. However, after the final assault the city was spared and by
the next spring the port was active.
Apparently, Fazzur launched a winter raid on the City of Wonders in which
up to 3,000
Lunar discorporate or dreaming spirits were involved. The Pharoah seems to
have
beaten the attack off but at some cost.
Aeolians:
In actual fact the Htwwo Aeolians are my fault, though Nick had some input
into them. I
made them very Orlanthi-ish to allow standard Orlanthi worship to co-exist
with Aeolian
worship.
Would anyone like me to post the write-up onto the daily?
Joerg:
>David Hall wouldn't have allowed you to reenact the test of Ehilm's
Flame...
Ahem! Kevin had the flamethower and the hydrochloric acid in the car!
You can try anything in a freeform.
Kitori tribe:
From some notes I took at Chaosium (90% accurate):
Founded by human Argan Argar refugees from the Kingdom of the Only Old One
and the
Trolls of the Troll Woods who sheltered them. They are said to have twin
kings, both said to be married to the Kitori mother, a Kyger Litor
ancestress, who is the founder of a
Daka Fal dynasty which settled the region and took over from the elves in
the 2nd Age.
Estimated population: Man-Kitori 7,000 and Troll-Kitori 10,000. The humans
farm, the
trolls prefer to stay in the shadow of the woods.
So I don t think they re Henotheist.
Porthomeka:
IMHO Porthomeka isn't Western. I think that that aspect is already covered
by God
Forgot. Total population is 161K (150K rural. On the map I have Rhigos is
not part of Porthomeka, instead being part of Esrolia... hmm... didn t
notice that before...
Earth Esrolia
Fire Caladraland
Storm Heortland
Darkness Shadowlands
Water The Islands
Logic God Forgot
I wonder if Heortland being taken over by the Malkioni might have upset the
elemental
balance, thus weakening the Pharaoh?
Porthomeka has the largest population of all of the Caladraland provinces.
I d maybe
go for a Yelmic culture? It might give some interesting friction with the
Esrolians to the
north?
That's all for now.
Cheers,
David
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Those damn Kitori and Arkati, still
Message-ID: <1994101104...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 11 Oct 94 21:04:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6557
>From: MOBT...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
>_____________________
>Temple of Black Arkat
>
>I am sold by Bernard Langham's concept that the Temple of Black Arkat
>is actually not a place, but an excessively trollophile secret society of
>human Sorcerors dedicated to the extirpation of Chaos through wholesale
>adoption of the Way of Darkness as revealed to humanity by Arkat Kingtroll.
I don't actually mind this part of Bernards ideas as much as I mind
them being closely connected with the Kitori. Even if they have a permanent
temple, I would say that they roam far afield anyway, so wether there is a
permanent temple or not is not really that important.
My big problem is that a human only temple/ branch of a troll cult
would probably not remain human only for very long if in an area of very
close human/troll relations, like the Troll Woods.
But set more in Heortland, I quite like parts of Bernards proposal.
>This idea is *amazingly* similar to one John Medway came up with for one
>of the NPCs in my scenario "Beyond the Building Wall", which will
>appear in issue #13 of TotRM. so amazingly similar, it's gotta be
>true!
>
I have been told that the sorcerer John came up with was a Humakti,
which doesn't really mesh with the trollophile idea.
>From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>Subject: Henotheism in Maniria
>> You seem very hostile to the notion of Henotheism on the border of Dragon
>> Pass and Kathaela.
[referring to me]
>
>When I first went public with my version of Aeolian ideas, I
>encountered, well, less than enthusiasm on this list. Apparently
>the lack of wizards in RQ2 caused a mindblock in accepting a Malkioni
>presence even close to Dragon Pass even when it was clear that sorcery
>was right at home in the Holy Country - ever since GoG made Dormal a
>member of the Malkioni array, and that _Sir_ Ethilrist is a knight. In
>fact, quite a lot of knights feature in old RQ or Glorantha publications
>in Dragon Pass - anybody ever wondered about Sir Narib and his company,
>from the Sartar magical union?
>
I like the presence of most of the various Westerners. I like the
Trader Princes, the Rokari in Nochet, Richard the Tiger-Hearted, and of
course the Black Horse Troop. It is the creation of yet another henotheist
religion that I am not so sure about - there is a difference between
interesting Western emigres and adding new native Manirian religious sects.
I am slowly warming to the idea of the Aeolians - but I am not keen on
creating further variations on the same theme for small groups like the
Kitori.
I like having Westerners - but I am cautious about religious
proliferation, especially when there is heaps of potential in the existing
religions still untapped.
And now, on to Alex
[on the Kitori starting as a troll clan that adopted human clans]
>I didn't say the other clans would be smaller, or that the troll clan would
>be "central" in any authority-weilding sense. But I think that if their
>the two have a genuinely unified tribal culture, co-evolution is a much more
>plausible origin than post hoc merger.
>
I think that both are oversimplifications - for example I think that the
two tribes might have been allied before they started, and certainly the
Argan Argar cult was strong within both (I think that the sacred marriage
of the clans was basically an AA power grab, to ensure that they remained
powerful within both). I think that the marriage probably happened at the
time of the OOO's rule, with AA rule providing some cultural links between
the two, and allied troll and human tribes being politically expedient for
both.
Also - I think that the genuinely unified tribal structure is not
some thing that they had from the begining. I think that they started as
two separate but closely allied tribes, and generations of living together,
and much active work by the AA cult, has resulted in a genuinely unified
tribe. The tribal structure has changed from the founding of the tribe, and
probably changed significantly in the first few years.
[on KL within the Kitori, and wether humans can join easily]
>> >I'm not sure either way, but I feel that having all the trolls in a troll-
>> >only cult would defeat the purpose of (attempted) tribal unity.
>
>> There are inumerable societies that have male only or female only
>> cults, and nobody claims that that is going to defeat tribal unity.
>
>Well, for example, Yelm and Dendara have a defined mythological relationship
>mirroring the pragmatic one, don't contain _all_ persons of either sex,
>and don't act to play up rivalries between distinct clans.
>
Think of KL as taking the place of Ancestor worship and shamanism
among the humans. Understand that in the normal trollish way the powerful
Argan Argar trolls have probably usurped much of the KL/ Karrg position as
ruler and warrior religion, though KL is still important as mother of
trolls.
>> > Or maybe we should just (cop out by)
>> >say(ing) that they all worship Kitor, a ancestral/founder deity with lots
>> >of AA-like surface darkness magic.
>
>> Much too dull. There are enough founder deities around (though a
>> married pair if founder deities is bearable).
>
>That's an non-objection; I could equally well say there are enough Argan
>Argar and Kyger Litor worshippers around already.
You were the one who said it was a cop out! I was merely agreeing
with you, and pointing out that there are slightly more interesting
options.
> I'm thinking of something which has KL-style "ancestor"
>worship shades to it, as well as being a founder cult per se. This is
>a cop out in the sense of effectively "relabelling" religious strands to
>be more acceptable to all.
>
I like this idea, but I am unsure why you need a single founder
deity to make it work. Even just changing your concept to two founding
heroes (a male clan chief, as befits the generally patriarchal Sartarites,
and a troll ancestress, as befits the matrilineal trolls) makes it a lot
more palatable to me. Among the trolls, a relatively small change from
standard KL worship, among the humans not much different to ancestor
worship and perhaps even restricted to the Chiefs clan.
[on wether accepting humans without 'adoption' would make the Kitori heretics]
>Since to the vast majority of trolls, being in the same tribe as a human
>would be unthinkable (most trolls don't even have tribes, mind you), citing
>the attitudes of standard-issue KL cultists is not convincing reasoning.
Look at page 39 of Uz Lore, which consists mostly of a list of
troll tribes - most trolls do have tribes, generally springing from a
common ancestress. The Kitori allow human clans, but apart from that are
probably organised on relatively conventional lines.
From the point of view of the Elder Kin of Dagori Inkarth, I think
trolls allowing humans into their tribe is their mistake, and their
foolishness, and welcome to it, though many other clans are closely allied
with non-uz as well - mostly Dark Elves or various intelligent arthropods.
But allowing humans into the KL cult is vile - even the greatest humans,
like Arkat, where required to undergo the adoption. I wouldn't want those
folks mad at me.
>Note that "creatures of darkness" can be non-excrutiatingly initiated into
>KL, into which category the Kitori uz may place their fellow "darkmen".
>
I acknowledge this possibility, and if the Kitori humans claim descent from
a troll, then they might get away with it. I think that they claim descent
from a darkness worshipping human who married a troll queen.
>> And note that the clans do not intermix that much - a clan is
>> either human or troll - so as long as AA is calling the shots as far as
>> tribal decisions, not a problem.
>
>Yes, a clan can have essentially "private" worship, and/or have a specialised
>worship that fits into the larger pattern of the tribe (a la Elmal clans).
>However, if you had tribal level worship of KL by all the trolls, and none
>of the humans, presumably all worshipping a common ancestor not recognised
>by or accessible to the humans, you no longer have one tribe, but two.
>
KL worship is a lot like ancestor worshi as far as its organisation
goes. The troll priestesses do not necessarily cooperate, nor do they
worship the same ancestors (well, they have one in common, and a lot
different). I think that all the tribal worship (ie worship of founders,
major festivals) acknowledge Argan Argar.
>Alex.
>
Cheers
Dave
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6558: mcarthur = (Robert McArthur)
- Re: slarges
6559: bmason = (Bruce Mason)
- Oh no sorcery: part 2
6560: ns10005 = (N. Smith)
- Moon Gazing
6561: davidc = (David Cake)
- Hopefully my last word on the Kitori (for now)
6562: vladt = (Kevin Rose)
- Souless Shamans and other oddities
6563: 100116.2616 = (David Hall)
- Anthony & Cleopatra?
6564: mmorrison = (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
- Resurrexion (again)
6565: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Kitori
6566: ns10005 = (N. Smith)
- Shamanic Ressurection
6567: pheasant = (Nick Eden)
- Aoelian Appologies
6568: DevinC = Dev...@aol.com
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 08 Oct 1994, part 1
6569: bmason = (Bruce Mason)
- Oh no sorcery: final part.
6570: sandyp = (Sandy Petersen)
- Slarges et al.
6571: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- V-pyramids; marriage; Esrolia; heads; slarges
6572: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
- more moonlight
6573: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Head taking
6574: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Shamans and divine magic
6575: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 11 Oct 1994, part 2
6576: T.J.Minas = (T.J.Minas)
- RE: Cult initiation/parent haters!
6577: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- Bits needed for resurrection
---------------------
From: mcar...@fit.qut.edu.au (Robert McArthur)
Subject: Re: slarges
Message-ID: <1994101109...@ocean.fit.qut.edu.au>
Date: 12 Oct 94 05:40:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6558
[Australian joke follows]
> Nope. The Slarges live in Wongarissi to the West of Pamaltela. Dunno
Sure Greg didn't mean something to do with Ron Barrasi [sp?] - the chief slarge!
---------------------
From: ns1...@hermes.cam.ac.uk (N. Smith)
Subject: Moon Gazing
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90a.94101...@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Oct 94 13:26:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6560
Hello all,
there has been a lot of talk lately about whether the Red Goddess
is visible, waxes/wanes, etc. I vaguely remember, but have so far been
unable to find, a 'travelogue' by someone approaching the glow-line and
then continuing on to Glamour. This mentioned the change from phasing to
an always full moon on crossing the Glowline and the fact that as you
approached Glamour the moon appeared lower in the sky, yet seemed to be
smaller.
I like this because it seems more mystical, gives new players a
reminder that Glorantha isn't the RW with funny names, and can give rise
to interesting propaganda when they ask about it.
eg. Orlanthi- That's the changing face of chaos, ain't it.
That's because she struggles against Orlanth but He
keeps pushing her away.
Lunars- This shows how the Red Goddess can tame chaos,
bring it within the power of time.
The face of the Goddess always looks on the
Blessed, when your land joins Her, you will also see Her at all times.
Shaman- She's a big spirit, immortal. Of course Her heart
beats slowly.
New players can also be caught by sending them over the Glow-line
on an errand, which a Lunar magician is trying to prevent. He attacks
every full moon, including the night before they cross the Glow-line.
They, used to the pattern, think themselves safe, when for the second
night running a full moon is noticed. Panic! Confusion! A demonstration
that this is not Earth by another name!
Sorry for the ramble, feel free to flame...
Nigel
---------------------
From: dav...@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Hopefully my last word on the Kitori (for now)
Message-ID: <1994101209...@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 13 Oct 94 01:58:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6561
David Hall very usefully mentions
>Kitori tribe:
>
>>From some notes I took at Chaosium (90% accurate):
>
>Founded by human Argan Argar refugees from the Kingdom of the Only Old One
>and the
>Trolls of the Troll Woods who sheltered them.
This sounds like a very plausible and reasonable history for the Kitori.
> They are said to have twin
>kings, both said to be married to the Kitori mother, a Kyger Litor
>ancestress, who is the founder of a
>Daka Fal dynasty which settled the region and took over from the elves in
>the 2nd Age.
>
This is close enough to my own ideas as to be easily reconciled. We
now have a clan with two Argan Argari Kings (the Day-King and the
Night-King), both allegedly married to the KL Queen (though only the
Night-King is likely to consumate this marriage, and he may not anyway).
The ruling religions are Daka Fal and Argan Argar. Among the trolls KL
blends with Daka Fal.
>Estimated population: Man-Kitori 7,000 and Troll-Kitori 10,000. The humans
>farm, the
>trolls prefer to stay in the shadow of the woods.
>
OK, so the humans still farm. Still not as much as most Orlanthi, probably.
CHeers
David Cake
>David
---------------------
From: vl...@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Souless Shamans and other oddities
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410111...@psycfrnd.interaccess.com>
Date: 11 Oct 94 13:46:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6562
Souless Shamans and other oddities.
I keep hitting a wall when I consider the concept of the "Presence Vessel"
system. It mostly has to do with the concepts of Vampires and other
creatures that lack POW casting spells whose manipulation depends on the
previous expendature of permanent POW. So, the question I keep coming up
with is how does a creature that has no soul create the Vessel?
Greg's answer to how vampires cast spirit magic was that they cannot. As
they have no permanant power they cannot cast spirit magic. As the fetch
is a part of their soul/POW, a vampire or other creature without permanent
POW cannot have one. So how can they cast sorcery?
I haven't heard an answer that didn't seem to be a rules hack. Rules
hacks are fine, but if the claim is that the precensce vessel system is a
GUTM (grand unified theory of magic) it doesn't make sense for there to
be major execptions.
I also have some other problems involving attitudes towards magic by
dwarves and many other sorcery users that doesn't really fit Paul's system.
Kevin Rose
---------------------
From: 10011...@compuserve.com (David Hall)
Subject: Anthony & Cleopatra?
Message-ID: <941011204134_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 11 Oct 94 20:41:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6563
Correction:
I think watching the X-Files must have unnerved me. Of course, the Pharaoh
is long gone by 1619/20 and the damage done to the City of Wonders is to
its defenders. The Kingdom of Malkonwal is a symptom and not a cause of the
Pharaoh s demise - though they probably contributed to the breakdown of the
Pharaoh s Council.
Fazzur the Great:
At RQ-Con in Germany Joerg and myself came up with some insights into why
the greatest general in all of Glorantha (ever), Fazzur Wideread, was not
at his best in the Heortland/Esrolian campaign. I think it is now time for
the world to know the truth.
The first mistakes in the siege of Whitewall (as we all know) were down to
incompetent subordinates - no doubt imposed upon Fazzur by the King of
Tarsh. However, Fazzurs subsequent mishandling of the seige and his
over-ambitious campaign in Esrolia are frankly mystifying considering his
utter brilliance as a strategist and tactician. These miscalculations led
to his removal from command and, with hindsight, signalled the beginning of
the end for the Lunar Empire.
Diligent research has now revealed to me, and to my esteemed colleague,
Joerg Baumgartner, that the reason for this was LOVE. Yes, Fazzur was in
love, and as a result (temporarily) his mind was unhinged. Who was the
object of his attentions? Is it not obvious!? It was none other than the
Queen of the Red Earth Alliance. This explains his failure to prosecute the
siege of Whitewall with the necessary vigour (he was rarely present at the
siege). It also explains Fazzur s anger at the withdrawal of troops from
his Esrolian invasion army (which would in fact have opened up a dangerous
2nd front), and his determination to send many of his best men to aid the
queen in lieu of the promised troops.
Our subsequent research finds some evidence to support the view that even
after his dismissal Fazzur was able to rescue the Queen in a daring and
brilliantly conceived combined arms raid. The lovers then returned home to
Tarsh. It is clear that some difficulties were experienced with his first
wife, but after her strangulation (hey, no-one's perfect) they both lived
happily ever after.
Don't you just love happy endings?
Cheers,
David
---------------------
From: mmor...@VNET.IBM.COM (Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706)
Subject: Resurrexion (again)
Message-ID: <1994Oct11.1...@vnet.ibm.com>
Date: 11 Oct 94 20:19:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6564
*** Reply to note of Tue, 11 Oct 94 09:16:07 +0100
*** by RuneQues...@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
The question was asked about whether taking someone's head would be
sufficient to stop resurrexion. Regardless of a soul, I'd say yes.
One requirement for resurrexion is having a complete body (or at
least the important bits) -- soul or no, the head is important (eyes,
ears, not to mention brain ... admittedly bronze age folks probably
don't know what the brain is all about). And, last time I looked,
you couldn't regrow a head (Regrow Limb). So, no head, no resurrect.
After all, isn't that one of the reasons Thanatari take heads?
Finally, I just want to say that I think Joerg's and Takehiro's R/W
English is significantly higher than 20-30%. I'd say around 75%.
After all, you're following many different native speakers on many
different topics with (seeming) ease. And your appends are both
semantically and syntactically very good -- better than some native
English speakers!
If my German and Japanese were at 30% (as you both claim for your
English), I'd be very happy and able to communicate! As it is, my
R/W Japanese is maybe 5% and my R/W German maybe 30% (my scale) ...
Michael
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Morrison IMS Information Development Tieline 8-543-4706
Santa Teresa Lab, San Jose, California (SWS) Phone (408)463-4706
Bitnet ID: MCM at VNET Fax (408)463-4101
Internet ID: MMOR...@VNET.IBM.COM or USIB...@IBMMAIL.COM
IBM Mail Exchange ID: USIB47H4 at IBMMAIL or USIB4MCM at IBMMAIL
X.400 Address: G=mcmgm; S=morrison; P=ibmmail; A=ibmx400; C=us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Kitori
Message-ID: <H.ea.0Sk...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 12 Oct 94 12:17:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6565
David Cake in X-RQ-ID: 6549
> On Joergs City List
> - this is very useful, I liked it a lot.
Thanks here for all the compliments. In fact, this was a very minor piece
of inspiration, just a bit of time sitting down collecting and assessing
the facts. If people really liked it, I might be tempted to do a similar
list for the Dragon Pass locations - I expect more corrections and input
there, though.
>>IMO the House of Black Arkat is situated somewhere north of the Kingdom
>>of Malkonwal, since I cannot imagine that the du Tumerine Rokari would
>>have tolerated this nest of heresies for long.
> There are an awful lot of heretics! I think the Rokari achieve
> political rule - but I do not think that they have the time to consolidate
> religious rule. In the short time that the Rokari run the place, they
> hardly have the time to be disbanding every minor temple.
Disbanding is one way to call it. Confiscation of heathen symbols
that happen to be made of valuable materials is a totally different
motivation for zealous and covetous new rulers to inspect the holy
places in their new lands. Both the du Tumerines (who come from a
mercantile family after all) and Richard's boon companions, mostly
second and later sons, will be set upon getting heirlooms for their
own lines of the family.
>>The IMO most likely place for the House of Black Arkat would be in
>>the neighbourhood of Smithstone, roughly at the place where a tributary
>>forks north from the Marzeel River, into Sun Dome County. This is
>>conveniently equidistant from both the Troll Woods and the Shadow Plateau,
>>in a region not infested by other Henotheists or Stygians, close enough to
>>cause trouble with Yelmalio worshippers, and within reach for human Kitori
>>who want to study there rather than in their woods.
> I still think that it could easily be farther South, but this is an
> OK position. As long as it is out of troll territory, as the trolls already
> have their own Arkat temples.
My argument against a location farther south is that there would be
a constant source of bloody heads between them and Aeolians, who IMO
think that Arkat becoming a troll and ZZ member was not a commendable
action. I'm not even sure they think it is necessary, but I know David
Hall's write-up and that he thinks they regard this step as a necessary
one. David, publish your version!
David Hall's info on the Kitori was also very appreciated.
Are there any infos on the rough populations of the Sartarite and
Volsaxi tribes and clans (other than the piece on the Colymar's
fighting strength by an urban Lunar used to Pelorian peasants)?
The Sartar High Council freeform scenario in WF7 has numbers attached to
the members, as indicators of their political and military weight. Would
these (rather low numbers, e.g. 6500 for the Colymar tribe, 3300 for the
Culbrea) be usable as a basis for calculating rough data on settlements
and fyrd? (I take these numbers to be fyrd numbers, otherwise I'd have
difficulties to add up to the approximately 180,000 inhabitants of Sartar.)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: ns1...@hermes.cam.ac.uk (N. Smith)
Subject: Shamanic Ressurection
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90a.94101...@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Date: 11 Oct 94 14:21:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6566
A quick, and poorly explained, idea. Lunchtimes are getting shorter!
A total guess, but wouldn't most of the spirits which possess
ressurection spells be CA initiates (from various discussions about CA
Temple sizes)?
If this is the case, then shaman should be careful as to the way
in which they handle these spirits, since Controling or Binding them
could be construed as an attack on a CA initiate--with all problems which
would result from an attack against a mortal CA cultist.
This brings a new dimension to shamanic ressurection--bargaining.
The spirit would wish to comply but would then have to return to the
spell source or a temple to regain the spell, as per normal, and thus
Glorantha would lose the benefits of an active Health Spirit for a period
of time.
Can you make an offer it can't refuse?
Nigel
---------------------
From: phea...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nick Eden)
Subject: Aoelian Appologies
Message-ID: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: 12 Oct 94 12:14:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6567
David I abase myself before you.
For some reason I'd got the idea that Nick B was the first name on this
list and had been bandying his name about as the inventor of the Aoelian
church. Sorry.
I'd suggest not publishing too much more about them until after RQ Con
II. Some brave soul will have to play Gwydion again, and it would be less
fun if all the Rokari scum knew everything about him.
---------------------
From: Dev...@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 08 Oct 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <941011151...@aol.com>
Date: 11 Oct 94 19:16:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6568
Devin here:
Brian writes:
"Not to blow my own horn (Okay, I'll blow it)--There is a writeup of the
Vinga subcult on the ftp archive for the daily, ftp.csua.berkeley.edu
The cult is in the /pub/runequest/cults directory."
Well, could it be posted here for those of us who cannot ftp?
Regards,
Devin
dev...@aol.com
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: V-pyramids; marriage; Esrolia; heads; slarges
Message-ID: <1994101122...@radiomail.net>
Date: 11 Oct 94 22:20:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6571
BTW, how do the proposed inverted pyramids of the Kingdom of Ignorance
stand up? Even regular pyramids are tricky (there's a pyramid in Egypt
which was under construction when another pyramid collapsed; the architects
accepted a change order, and the slope of the pyramid changes to make the
whole structure a little lighter).
Alex believes
>Well, technically, one doesn't join the clan one "marries into",
As I run Ralios, you _do_ join the clan you marry into. The wife can
participate in her new clan's heroquest, and gain access to the clan hero
power. (At the expense of not being able to use her original clan's hero
power, since she didn't attend their heroquest. She can, circumstances
permitting, rejoin her birth-clan at Sacred Time and participate in their
heroquest.)
Marriage is very much between two clans, at least at the noble level. Ekel
Field-Destroyer would love to have his remaining unmarried daughter find a
match in the powerful Nardain tribe. It would form important links between
their clans, and to a lesser extent, between the Riagos and Nardain tribes.
Sandy said
>While the "women rule" bit of Esrolia may or not be a
>stereotype, I would expect to find women in command of their armies,
>but men forming the bulk of the armed forces.
I agree, you put it better than I did.
Aside to Sandy: physically, the best jet fighter pilots would be short, fat
women. The limit on fighter performance is the human ability to take Gs,
and short, fat women can take more than us tall, lean men.
Paul Snow asked
>Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi
>way, prevent resurrection?
and Sandy gave a "no" answer. Despite running an East Ralios game where the
Orlanthi _do_ collect heads, I hadn't given this a whole lot of thought
(since resurrection isn't easily available).
The obvious difficulty with resurrecting someone with a missing head is
that they'd be headless. So for practical purposes, head-removal would
work. However, I lean towards Sandy's interpretation, and with mighty
healing magics, you could probably regrow the head.
The real reason to take heads is to _use_ them. No, not in the Thanatari
way, a perversion no doubt introduced by Arkat the Devil. Two possible
rules (described in PenDragon Pass terms):
Displaying the head of an enemy's kin makes that enemy -2 against you
(though it may also inspire him to Love Family).
DEMORALIZE variable, ranged, passive
If this spell overcomes the target's POW, he must make a Cowardly roll, at
+2 for each magic point in the spell. If this succeeds, he loses faith in
the ability of himself and his party to win a fight, find treasure, rescue
the princess, etc. He uses no offensive tactics, and casts only defensive
and heal spells. If practical, he will withdraw from combat. Any Valorous
rolls needed are at -2 per point while the spell is active.
Having a head of a kinsman of the target adds to the effective
magic points of the spell: +1 point against members of the head's clan, +2
against members of the head's bloodline, +3 against brother, son, or
father.
This spell counteracts Fanaticism; if it's larger than the
Fanaticism, it forces a Cowardly roll based on the excess.
Peter Metcalfe asked of slarges:
>Does anybody have more info about them other than whats been said of
>in elder secrets?
Note that there are slarges in Griffin Island (on the cover, even). This
supplement is lamentably out of print -- yeah, it's not as good as Griffin
Mountain, and it's not Gloranthan, but it's a nice low-level campaign with
very good handouts.
---------------------
From: SMI...@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: more moonlight
Message-ID: <01HI59EB5...@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 11 Oct 94 04:39:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6572
- Eric responds to my comments on the Red Moon in X-RQ-ID 6514
Eric suggests that until the Fourth Wane the moon was just an ordinary
chunk of rock.
> Only at the time of Yana Aranis and the creation of the reaching moon
temples did the moon begin to give off rays of it's own. Before that the
moon was seen the same way you could see anything, reflected light from
the sun.
Well, I have a couple problems with this. First, the Sun is ABOVE the
moon and the light would be on top, not the side (unless you come up
with some convoluted theory about light bending downward). And further,
the Sun is only present during the day, not the night when the Moon is
most noticeable. Second, this implies that the moon and Red Goddess
lack light powers until the appearance of Yara Aranis--a contention I
think is disproved by the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light where the
goddess clearly demonstrates her powers over light. Only the First
Arrow (the glamours) would suggest measly reflective properties. Third,
the troll gods would not have had a problem with a body that merely
reflected sunlight since that would not shed light during the night and
violate the Compromise.
If you really want to contend that the Red Goddess had no light powers
of her own, but merely used the Sun's, then I think it much more
probable that she gathers the light of the Sun and releases it as she
will and where she will. But the whole idea of her rise into the sky
and the rise of the Crater parallels the aspect of Yelm/Murharzarm upon
the Footstool too closely.
> Hopefully you can remember what day it is.
This comment related more to the roving searchlight that Nick Brooke
proposed a while back and depended on which way the goddess was facing.
Where Wildday might be the Full Moon day in Dragon Pass it would be a
Black or Dying Moon day in Eol.
However, if the Glowline ensures a full moon and you can't see the moon
outside the Glowline (as you would propose) why bother with phases? If
I'm a Lunar magician and leave the Glowline and can no longer see the
Moon, I'm going to distrust my magic regardless of the now unseen phase.
> It is my contention that she is indeed contesting the for the middle
air, but from the lower air. When Orlanth is finally defeated she will
rise higher and be visible farther than at present. I think the whole
'contesting' idea is in fact that the problem is for the red moon to
rise higher, she must conquer and place temples in Orlanthi lands.
This is a reasonable argument, but I suggest that you tell people to
stop making maps that show otherwise then.
> I would have expected Knights and Dragons to have come marching into
central Genertela long ago.
The Knights did--they were Carmanians. The Orlanthi did--allies of
Jannisor and then Vareleus/Gwythar. The nomads did. The dragons don't
care or else see it as the proper merging of dark and light into one.
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6578: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
- rising moon: a suggestion
6579: jonas.schiott = (Jonas Schiott)
- Arroin and Slarges
6581: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Re: Fazzur and Hendira
6582: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Inverted Pyramids
6583: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Red Moon and Glowline
6584: Mike.Dickison = Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
- Porthomeka/Karse/Mucho Esrolia; & Zaranistangi?
6585: CHEN190 = (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
- Vessel=Solace, Upside down pyramids and slarges
6586: henkl = (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed 12 Oct 1994, NOT!
6588: igorlick = (ian i. gorlick)
- vampire vessels; new Babeester Gor?
6589: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- [FormPlural(geas)]
6590: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Moon
6591: paul = pa...@phyast.pitt.edu
- Re: Vampires, MOstali, and Presence
6592: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Arkati and Illumination
6593: paul = pa...@phyast.pitt.edu
- Re: FAZZUR THE GREAT
6594: ppofandt = (PAUL POFANDT)
- Wanted : Collected Grisalda
6595: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- In da ahmy now.
6596: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Extrahealing
6597: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Compress those maps! Smaller!
6598: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Orlanth Rex et al.
6599: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Resurrect
6600: alex = (Alex Ferguson)
- Humakt geasa: supplemental.
6601: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Healers Vows
---------------------
From: SMI...@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: rising moon: a suggestion
Message-ID: <01HI7Y6E9...@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 13 Oct 94 02:26:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6578
Hi all--
- Nigel Smith wonders where he read the description of the 'moon rise'.
If I remember correctly it is in the Seven Mothers cult writeup in Cults
of Prax. It's actually the piece that helped precipitate the controversy--
some of us feel it has been superceded by later material and others feel
it is the real truth.
I did come up with one possible suggestion for those who like the rising
moon idea.
At Castle Blue, Orlanth admits the Red Goddess to the air by giving her a
place in the Lower Air. No big deal he thinks as he still rules the Middle
Air and Upper Air and she is not yet embodied.
End of Zero Wane--Red Goddess embodies herself and takes her place at the
top of the Lower Air to fully survey her terrain. She produces her own
light but it is phased (rotates to see everything). She is visible
throughout the Oslir basin (not all Peloria)--this upsets Dara Happans and
Carmanians who renew fighting.
End of First Wane--Carmanians and Dara Happans defeated. Red Goddess takes
her first step up into the Middle Air. Most of Peloria can see her now--
southern barbarians upset and attack.
End of Second Wane--Southern barbarians defeated by Conquering Daughter.
Red Goddess takes her second step into the Middle Air. All of Peloria can
see her to the edge of the Rockwoods, Sweet Sea, Redlands--Pent nomads
encounter her sight and get upset.
End of Third Wane--Sheng Seleris limits Red Goddess' rise. Instead Yara
Aranis is born and Glowline established. Those within the Glowline get
full moon benefit. Rest of Peloria is still phased. Her light dims, but
she does not retreat or advance (I would accept that she is forced back
down a step here, though I don't see it as necessary).
End of Fourth Wane--Sheng defeated. Red Goddess takes third step into the
Middle Air. Her light now spills over into parts of Pent, Dragon Pass,
Prax, or Ralios. More trouble from nomads and southern barbarians, but
Syndics Ban will prevent further trouble from the west.
End of Fifth Wane. Night of Horrors and conquest of Tarsh. Red Goddess
takes fourth step into the Middle Air. Her light is now visible throughout
Central Genertela. Without significant foes, the Glowline is consolidated
throughout Oslir basin down to Sartar border--these are prime foes now.
End of Sixth Wane. Red Goddess takes fifth step into the Middle Air. Her
light is now visible throughout Genertela. People start predicting Hero
Wars. Campaign to destroy the cities of Orlanth begins.
End of Seventh Wane. The Red Goddess prepares to take the sixth step to
the top of the Middle Air (or perhaps one step below, but she can wrestle
with Orlanth during the Eighth Wane for the top step). If she does so, her
light will be visible throughout Glorantha (or maybe just across the
oceans)--but the rebellion of Argrath and destruction of the new temple in
Sartar halts her rise.
I don't think this approach is irreconcilable with the idea of seeing the
moon 'rise' as one gets closer to its heart (or that it appears to get
smaller). Mystical effects are certainly important and impressive to the
populace.
Harald
---------------------
From: jonas....@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Arroin and Slarges
Message-ID: <941013122...@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:21:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6579
Richard Ohlson:
>A friend mentioned a CA subcult representing her son. In this subcult men
>are allowed to become High Healers. (The only way for men to become priests)
>What do people know about him?
That's Arroin. I don't think there's much mention of him in any RQ3
material I've seen. In CoP, Healers of Arroin are the Rune Lords of
Chalana's cult - they don't have access to Rune Magic ('cause Arroin stayed
behind and used up all his power trying to heal things while Chalana went
off on the LBQ), they're instead masters of the healing _skills_ (and know
a good amount of Battle Magic Healing, too).
_______
Sandy, what does Slarge Metal _look_ like?
( Jonas Schiott )
( Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria )
( Goteborgs Universitet )
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Fazzur and Hendira
Message-ID: <H.ea.y&2Jhg...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:39:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6581
David Hall in X-RQ-ID: 6563
> Our subsequent research finds some evidence to support the view that even
> after his dismissal Fazzur was able to rescue the Queen in a daring and
> brilliantly conceived combined arms raid. The lovers then returned home to
> Tarsh. It is clear that some difficulties were experienced with his first
> wife, but after her strangulation (hey, no-one's perfect) they both lived
> happily ever after.
The reports on her strangulation are news to me. How did Onjur the Poet,
teh son of Fazzur who later led the Fazzurite faction in Tarsh against
the Phargentites, react to this disposal of his mother?
> Don't you just love happy endings?
How happy, and how long is "ever after" in a land that will be torn
by civil and external warfare only a couple of years in the future?
Fazzur is mentioned as the commander of the Tarshite force in 1625,
where Kallyr repells him at Dangerford, but apparently was recalled
after this battle, when the Phargentites received command from
Moirades. He doesn't appear in the CHDP after this battle, but his
son Onjur does. (pp. 128 and 154)
So: How is Fazzur's relation to Onjur the Poet? What does Onjur do
in 1621, what in 1625? (And was he irrevocably slain by Mularik Ironeye
after the capture of Furthest?)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Inverted Pyramids
Message-ID: <H.ea.WpK...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:39:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6582
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 6571
> BTW, how do the proposed inverted pyramids of the Kingdom of Ignorance
> stand up? Even regular pyramids are tricky (there's a pyramid in Egypt
> which was under construction when another pyramid collapsed; the architects
> accepted a change order, and the slope of the pyramid changes to make the
> whole structure a little lighter).
One possibility: the Ignorants build kind of a mould for the pyramids,
square amphitheatres with the centre beind a tip pointing downwards.
This way the blood wouldn't run down (unless the sacrifices were done
at the base of the pyramids, i.e. upstairs), but collect in the centre
of the pyramid, to be consumed either by the deity and/or crazed
cultists.
Imagine an Ignorance acropolis: lots of squarish blocks standing up,
creating a more forbidding version of modern metropoles with their
square block habitation ghettos, all sloping down on the inside. The
practical Kralori might have connected these to a system to collect rain
in cisterns (but capable of letting the first part, with all the rests
of dried blood, go somewhere else). Connect these blocks with random
bridges and stairways, and you get a nightmarish version of Fritz Lang's
Metropolis.
And the solid parts of the moulds give excellent stables for the trollkin
workers, too.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Red Moon and Glowline
Message-ID: <H.ea.mwqr3H&WT...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 13 Oct 94 14:40:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6583
Eric Rowe intrepidly defends the RQ2 notions of the Glowline and very
limited visibility of the moon.
Eric proposed that the Red Moon was just an awful big chunk of reddish
rock hanging in the lower sky before the birth of Yara Aranis and the
installation of the first Temples of the Reaching Moon.
One thing is certain: before this event, nowhere in the empire (except
possibly in the Silver Shadow, and of course in the Glowspot of the
Bat) the "always full" state of Lunar magic was on. IMO because this
would have the Compromise even more than the very existance of the
Goddess did anyway.
I agree with Harald that there existd moonlight before the Glowline -
not only the Battle of Four Arrows of Light, also the Rist Moonburn
involve light powers.
The Temples of the Reaching Moon (and Argrath's rumoured Reaching Storm
temples) could be an imitation of the spread of Draconic during the
Third Council period of the EWF, when the original idea of friendly
expansion changed into a power-gathering system of oppression. The EWF
built dragonewt nests in the 2nd Age, the Lunars build TotRM. One thing
all of these have in common is that they upset the natural order and
the Compromise and draw the attention of dire foes.
Apart from that, while the Red Moon may seem closer to the Earth in the
Silver Shadow (apart from trigonometrics), if you make a rule out of
this, inside the Glowline the moon should appear closer to the earth,
not farther away. I still think that there are visible change in phase
within the Glowline, but there is a constant crimson glow above all of
it that makes the full attention of the Goddess (at least her Reaching
aspect) known to the denizens.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed 12 Oct 1994, NOT!
Message-ID: <941013160...@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 13 Oct 94 18:07:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6586
Due to system problems no issue was sent last wednesday.
I suppose yesterdays' articles merged with today's Daily.
Cheers,
Henk
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: vampire vessels; new Babeester Gor?
Message-ID: <_28088_Thu_Oct_13_12:08:59_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 13 Oct 94 08:08:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6588
Kevin Rose in RQ-ID: 6562
>... Vampires and other
>creatures that lack POW casting spells whose manipulation depends on
>the previous expendature of permanent POW. So, the question I keep
>coming up with is how does a creature that has no soul create the
>Vessel?
>Greg's answer to how vampires cast spirit magic was that they cannot.
>As they have no permanant power they cannot cast spirit magic. As the
>fetch is a part of their soul/POW, a vampire or other creature without
>permanent POW cannot have one. So how can they cast sorcery?
My conclusion for the Vivamort cult was that Vampires must make all the
POW expenditures that they ever will while they are still alive. After
they are undead, they will be unable to make any more enchantments, or
POW vessels, etc. If one was using the Vessel system (I am not, but I
find the concept appealing) then a Vampire who did not have a vessel
before he was made undead would never get one and would be much more
limited in the sorcery he could cast, like any other non-professional
sorceror. Since the sorceror perceives his Vessel to be unliving, then I
have no problem with it surviving the transformation into undeath,
something I would not allow for a shaman's fetch.
Richard Ohlson in RQ-ID: 6575
>I was reading the new write up of Babeester Gor and really liked it.
What new writeup? Where can I get it?
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Moon
Message-ID: <941013195525_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 13 Oct 94 19:55:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6590
____________
Nigel Smith:
> I vaguely remember, but have so far been unable to find, a 'travelogue'
> by someone approaching the glow-line and then continuing on to Glamour.
> This mentioned the change from phasing to an always full moon on cross-
> ing the Glowline and the fact that as you approached Glamour the moon
> appeared lower in the sky, yet seemed to be smaller.
Cults of Prax, Seven Mothers cult notes, had a piece describing how the
Glowline was at first believed to work, in which the moon appears on the
horizon as you cross the Glowline and appears to rise and hang above the
nearest Reaching Moon temple.
This has been superceded in later work, most notably by Elder Secrets. In
Greg's current thinking, the Red Moon is visible, and visibly goes through
its phases, both within and beyond the Glowline. This seems to make more
sense to a lot of folk. But nobody is dictating anything: it's your world
too!
You might be interested in Joerg's piece on the back of Codex #2: a
selected accounts of why the moon looks the way it does.
> Wouldn't most of the spirits which possess ressurection spells be CA
> initiates (from various discussions about CA Temple sizes)?
In what sense? Most spirits aren't dead humans. Yeah, spirits which knew
Resurrection spells (themselves very rare) would most likely be close to
Chalana Arroy, but is this news?
Bargaining for spirits is another rules-lite thing which could go into a
largely-descriptive ShamanPak.
___________
Kevin Rose:
Maybe a vampire turns all his POW into Presence? Its magic is similar to,
but different from, Sorcery, but quantifying it might interfere with MGF.
Note that the most powerful sorceries (using the word in its correct sense
meaning "evil magic") are Immortality and Tap -- indistinguishable from
Vampirism to the outsider. A connection seems highly probable, as does a
Western origin for the "Cult of Vivamort".
_____________
Harald Smith:
> If the Glowline ensures a full moon and you can't see the moon outside
> the Glowline (as you would propose) why bother with phases?
Quite.
> The dragons don't care or else see [the Moon] as the proper merging of
> dark and light into one.
For now. Ask Argrath...
____________
Bruce Mason:
I know I'm pleased to see ideas of mine first publicised in '93 now being
re-presented in your Sorcery notes, and I hope Paul Reilly & Mike Holliday
are, too; but a little credit is always a nice thing to receive.
_______________
Richard Ohlson:
> Challana Arroys are sworn not hurt anything that is not chaotic. I have
> allways wondered how they are supposed to tell. Why isn't there a spell
> to detect Chaos? Or would it be easier to let Urox teach Challana Arroy
> cultists the sense chaos skill.
Easier still: don't hurt anything. Unless it has tentacles, seven eyes, and
sings old Naverian folksongs through its fundament. (And even then, can you
be sure?).
Why should a sworn Healer want to hurt anything? It's not as if they're
going to be any good at it!
Try to find a copy of Tales #8 for the inside story on Sense Chaos skill.
It's a special Storm Bull trauma. If everyone joins Storm Bull, then every-
one will be able to have 'Nam style screaming flashbacks when they catch
the scent of Broos.
> I suppose there could be sense and detect Law too.
I doubt it. That was IMHO the worst thing about the Cult of Krarsht (I hope
Stephen managed to cut it from Lords of Terror). Your attitude to Chaos has
overtones of Moorcock or D&D's Alignment system, which are not appropriate
in Glorantha. "Law" ain't as important a concept here as "Natural/Normal/
Decent/Sane" -- a Storm Bull is in no wise "Lawful", but he's certainly a
rightful part of the cosmos. And "Neutrality" would be just another word
for those Chaos-loving Lunar scum and their delusions of "Balance". Not a
Good Thing at all.
Let's not polarise things too far. The relevant "Us and Them" is Glorantha
vs. Chaos; not Law vs. Chaos with "Neutrality" in the middle. Maybe weird
(Illuminated? Lunar? Arkati? God Learner?) philosophers see it differently,
but the average Gloranthan-in-the-street doesn't think in these terms.
====
Nick
====
"Sounds like a series of rotten fantasy novels" -- Tim Hunter.
---------------------
From: pa...@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Vampires, MOstali, and Presence
Message-ID: <941013200...@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 13 Oct 94 20:07:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6591
Paul Reilly responding to Kevin:
>if the claim is that the precensce vessel system is a
>GUTM (grand unified theory of magic) it doesn't make
Paul Reilly (Presence/Vessel author here.) THere is no such claim, So I guess
I don't have to refute objections to it. I guess I do believe that Glorantha
does have overall rules that dictate how the world functions, so I think that
there could be a GUTM, actually just a UTG (Unified Theory of Glorantha) that
would explain Gloranthan physics, magic, etc. But our understanding of
that is at best no better than the understanding of Earth scientists in
1800 or so of the GUT for our Universe (still unknown but we are much closer.)
The Presence system isn't meant to be an attempt at a Universal system,
just a small step toward it, like Faraday's research in our world tied
together the former separate Electricity and Magnetism, in a qualitative way
at first.
>I also have some other problems involving attitudes towards magic by
>dwarves and many other sorcery users that doesn't really fit Paul's system.
Paul here. I've addressed the issue of the Mostali before. I think that
non-apostate, unbroken Mostali DON'T have what we think of as normal human
consciousness, instead they are much more "automatic". They have Presence
INSTEAD OF Power. Every "standard" dwarf can do the same sort of tricks
with magic that a Human master sorcerer can accomplish only after years of
study.
Summary: Humans: their Power is "alive" and "free" and tends to wander
around doing what it feels like. This is what gives us the sensation of
LIVING. Sorcerers awaken their greater potential (the same potential that
a shaman grows into his Fetch or a priestess gives over to her Goddess) and
instead of "freeing" it to "do its own thing" they bind it to act in a
controlled way, usually associating this now restricted Power (=Presence) with
a physical object. The physical object is a symbol of the magical tool that
the sorcerer has made his otherworld Presence into. The sorcerer binds,
controls, or symbolically "kills" his potential otherworld self and shapes
it into a magical tool, a tool that can be used as a magical "machine" to
perform various well-controlled but essentially mindless functions. To the
sorcerer, the shaman is a dangerous lunatic who has NOT learned how to
control his magic.
This state, while quite "unnatural" for humans (at least, few humans do this
and it is difficult even for them), is the NATURAL STATE of the Mostali spirit.
They are running on autopilot. A Wizard who got to sit down and analyze
a Mostali worker by watching him with Mystic Vision for many years might
eventually realize that the Mostali was more of a Living Tool (like a Staff)
than a real person.
A Mostali who wakes into "personhood" (becomes broken) will lose some of
his magical ability and gain free will in exchange. Is this a good trade or
a poor one? You be the judge.
My TENTATIVE theory of Vampires:
An "index case" Vampire works as follows. A Sorcerer who knows the ways
of Chaos opens a Void Hole through ritual and invests
his Presence into the Void (instead of into a Staff, etc.) This Hole is
INSIDE the Sorcerer. It is hungry for Power and may devour the entire
soul of the Sorcerer, in which case he becomes "undead".
The Hole in a power _sink_ instead of a source and the reality of Glorantha
is constantly running out through it (as it does through any Chaos
manifestation). This weakens the world, but the World Glorantha has plenty
of Power, including much Power in inanimate objects. This "background
power" would be described by the theists as Power from the Celestial Court
deities who made the fabric of the world, or by First Age Malkioni (and
some modern sects) as the immanent presence of the Invisible God. (Cf.
Stoic beliefs about GOd's body being a sort of subtle fire that permeates
the Universe)
OK. Magic is accomplished by the FLOW of Power. For a NORMAL sorcerer,
this is HIS Power flowing out into the World. A Vampiric sorcerer,
(Including Vampires) on the other hand, is using the flow of the
WORLD's power out INTO THE VOID, where it is lost forever to Glorantha.
OK. So I would say that Vampires should have a NEGATIVE Presence, which
SUCKS UP Power from the World, with which they can perform magic. The
bigger the HOLE inside them becomes, the more magic they can perform. The
original size of the Hole will increase monotonically (perhaps as a simple
proportion?) with the amount of Presence they invest into the Void. A strong
sorcerer can become a strong vampire. Second, by feeding more Power to the
Void, they can become stronger. (Cf. CoT Vivamort rules)
But there is a drawback to increasing your Vampiric Power this way. As
the Hole gets bigger, your vampiric sorcery (and vampiric "poowers") become
stronger. BUT the Hole is Hungrier, and you must feed it more, or suffer
the consequences.
Ok. SO that is the Presence theory for Mostali and Vampires. Does this
make any sense, Kevin?
I will try to get a Presence writeup onto this list for those who missed
it on the RQ4 list. NO promises, as I am very busy in "real life".
- Paul
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: bma...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Bruce Mason)
Subject: Oh no sorcery: final part.
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410111...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: 11 Oct 94 11:32:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6569
This is the third and final part of the wizardtastically wonderful
sorcery system of Bruce L. Mason. Basically I'll just round off some
bits and pieces and then we can all get back to discussing just how many
troll spirits can dance on the head of a mace :-)
vessel vows
Increasing the size of your vessel is obviously a hot priority for most
PC wizards. Sacrificing POW may seem easy but there are a lot of calls
on your POW which is, I suspect, one reason why vows are so popular.
Generally you should negotiate on an individual basis but here are some
I've agreed in the past.
Celibacy 1 season per year. 1pt
Total Celibacy. 3pts
Eat no meat. 1pt
Drink no alcohol 1pt
Take no intoxicating substances of any kind. 2pt (Consult Rokar's book
of banned substances...)
Missionary fervour 1-3pts (Must try to convert Brithini is
always good for a laugh).
Never sleep inside. 1pt.
Never bathe. 1pt
Never shave. 1pt
Silence 1 day/week. 1pt
Silence 1 season/year 2pts
Total silence 3pts. (Npc vows these...)
Never enter a built structure 2pts
Self flaggellation 1-3pts (depends how many hps the Player can
stomach losing)
Obsessive cleanliness 1pt
Never speak to krjalki 1pt
Never speak to or aid krjalki in any way 2pts
Wanderlust 1pt
Never learn or use [tap, venom, various demon spells etc] 1 pt each.
I expect you see the basic concept. Most vows deal with the denial of
the body and natural urges in order to rarify the spirit. Consequently
vows of the nature of ``have fun and meet people'' don't go down too well
with Deus Invisible. Breaking vows will at the very least result in the
temporary removal of that part of the vessel until an appropriate penance
is performed. Deliberate vow breaking will usually result in the loss of
1/2 to all of the vessel until penance is undertaken. This all makes for
good fun role-playing.
Ritual of Independence
----------------------
This is modified from RAG and is a sorcery
enchantment that doesn't require vessel to use. It is essentially a
method of giving spells a form of permanence.[1]
First the wizard must consecrate an object and spend 1 POW for each spell
it will hold using a simple enchant ritual.
Secondly she casts the spell to be held into the object using an the
ritual of independence.
Finally she creates a link between the object and a MP source, typically
a spirit or MP matrix.
For the spell to persist it must consume a number of MPs equal to its
casting cost per day from the linked source, if it can not do this it
fails and the POW is lost. Typically most sorcerors stick a POW
spirit in a binding enchantment. Other possibilities are an MP
matrix that the user fills routinely or in some of the bigger spells
large MP matrices are filled by several acolyhists as part of their
daily duties. (Great life being an acolythist you get to sweep
floors, shovel shit and fill up MP matrices. Got to be MOB scenario
in there somewhere). This spell is very important for Stygian sorcerors
as I'll explain shortly.
MP regeneration
---------------
I play that everyone gets 1/2 the MPS back at sunrise and
1/2 at sunset.[2] Transitions are scary times, with mystic vision the
wounded body of Yelm can be seen dragging magical energies across the
face of Glorantha and stealing them away to the underworld at dusk. This
can sometimes disrupt spells, especially those nearing their duration's
end which sometimes fail prematurely. Consequently dusk and dawn are the
harbingers of many magical attacks across Glorantha.
Atheist Sorcery
---------------
Everything so far has been written in a Malkioni paradigm.
For atheist sorcerors the vessel liberation is more personal, generally
focusing much more on the enslavement of the hidden self, and will
vary depending upon the initiate's master. The most notable point is
that vows mean less without an appropriate paradigm so many morally
bankrupt sorcerors have been known to investigate methods of extracting
spirit from other creatures to enlarge their vessel. Of course just
because you're an atheist doesn't mean you're morally bankrupt. For
example the Brithini just live a longtime and sacrifice 1POW every year
or so. Give them a few centuries and you realise why you *don't* mess
with Brithini sorcerors.
Stygian Sorcery
---------------
This is going to be controversial but basically stygian
sorcerors do not and can not have a vessel for they have sacrificed it to
some God or other. I have never really been able to playtest this but my
feeling is that they can sacrifice for specific vessel abilities as if
they were rune magic. Eg a stygian could sacrifice for 3 points of range
which she could use in manipulating a sorcery spell. Obviously this is
far less powerful, but that may not be a bad thing. Stygian's get access
to rune magic and sorcery already and many of them use personal magic
too.[3]
END NOTES
---------
Thanks for your patience. I hope there's food for thought. As
I said there are four basic criteria behind why things work the way they
do. I wanted a system that was playable and didn't need too much pen and
paper work. By taking all the manipulation skills out, all the non-linear
tables and replacing them with one, and diminishing the reliance on
matrices to get around the FREE INT limit the system is a lot easier to
run. Secondly it doesn't *look* that much different to RQ3 on paper.
You can pretty much take some like Arlaten the Mage make a decision on
the size of his vessel and what vows he may have taken and pretty much
leave his skills, spells and items alone. Thirdly I believe this is much
more specific to Glorantha and theistic wizardry in particular. The
three fold dichotomy is distinctly God-Learnerish and so must be taken
cautiously but there you go. Finally it does emphasize the spiritual
nature of wizardry whilst retaining its basis as intellectual pursuit.
As I say it has all been pretty thoroughly play-tested in a Jonatelan
monastry out near High Llama pass and I'm interested in hearing what
others have to say. So it's an ego trip.
---Bruce.
Footnotes
---------
[1] This is basically a way of letting sorcerors give nobles gifts and
so on. It costs quite a bit of POW compared to RQ3's system where you're
sorceror enchanted a damage boost 3 onto your sword once a year for you.
BTW I use the RAG matrix idea. I pt gives knowledge of a spell equal to
MBonus. Each point thereafter gives +10% to spell cast. This does make
matrices very useful.
[2] Two reasons for this. The 1/24th of your POW back in MPs per hour
became unplayable cause sorcerors go through a lot of MPs. Secondly it
seems more atmospheric. If ever I start a scenario with ``It's almost
dusk as...'' then the PCs get panic attacks. Plus I like the concept of
Genertela as a dead land having the magical energies wash across Genert's
bones. I think in Pamaltela you get MPs back a lot more easily, probably
everytime Pamalt beathes out.
[3] This is speculative as the campaign never got the far. A couple of
stygian NPCs relied heavily on the Independence ritual. At one point a
Troll priestess had a pseudo ``runepower'' pool of 25 points that she
used like a vessel but it didn't seem quite right so that got ditched in
favour of sacrificing for particular vessel capabilities that may be
limited by cult.
---------------------
From: san...@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Slarges et al.
Message-ID: <941011171...@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 11 Oct 94 05:17:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6570
Peter M.
>The Slarges live in Wongarissi. This is one area of glorantha, I
>would like to know more about (from a safe distance of course!)
>I know the slarges culture is obviously based around the whims and
>curiousity of the big'uns and their magic ranges from Shamanism to
>Sorcery(!) and yet they have no observable cities or urban
>settlements. I'm thinking that the philosopy of the big ones
>basicly revolves around experimenting with the world as such and the
>little ones are their children to obey. I don't think they have any
>gods to worship (although their shamans will know of some big
>spirits). Does anybody have more info about them other than whats
>been said of in elder secrets?
As originator of the damn slarges, it is clearly my duty to do some
description here.
SEX (oh baby): At the risk of tedium, I'll repeat some data
from my Gloranthan Bestiary. Slarges have a rather peculiar
life-cycle. Lesser Slarges (so-called by humans; no one knows what
they term themselves) are smallish reptile beings that give live
birth. They seem to have two sexes. The children of the Lesser
Slarges grow up into Giant Slarges.
Giant Slarges are hermaphroditic and never mate. Instead,
they parthenogenetically spawn large clusters of eggs, which hatch
into Lesser Slarges. Thus the cycle repeats again. Of course, the
cycles are all mixed up by now, so that the slarge population is a
mixture of Giant and Lesser individuals. Most slarges encountered are
Lesser, which may have a higher survival rate than Giants. Or perhaps
it's just that Lesser Slarges are more aggressive and go in packs, so
they're simply more likely to encounter humans than their solitary
sires.
LESSER SLARGES are highly social and invariably found in
groups. They are quite hostile to humans -- at least as hostile as
are most trolls. Lesser slarges have been seen to fight one another,
but always one-on-one, with the others watching. Perhaps these are
dominance fights, or something else. The loser is rarely killed, so
it would appear that slarges are more cooperative within their own
species than are humans. Lesser slarges do not make towns or cities,
but are nomadic, like broos or certain humans. They do not ostracize
the giant slarges, but not uncommonly have one or more of these
individuals with them.
Lesser slarges are not workers. They do not make weapons or
armor, or produce anything but the most trifling artifacts. They
appear to have little or no artistic impetus, but are entirely given
over to the arts of fighting, hunting, and working. Their skills are
generally wholly practical in nature, as are the spells they learn.
Lesser slarges are perfectly able to become shamans, but they
are not particularly great at this -- perhaps because of their lack
of creativity. Lesser slarges DO appear to be the "leaders" of the
Slarge species, at least insofar as they provide the drive and
ambition to spread across the plains, thrusting aside the humans as
they advance.
GIANT SLARGES are solitary, and are known to build structures
in which to house themselves. These creatures are not as hostile as
lesser slarges (which is not saying much -- they can still be very
dangerous), and a few have been known to interact with humans on at
least a neutral basis; trading food for magic, stuff like that.
Giant slarges are highly creative and curious beings, each
spending its life in some particular labor (perhaps this is their
sublimated sex drive kicking in?). There is some overlap between
Giant Slarge "hobbies", and even some evidence of collusion -- for
instance, at least one Giant Slarge metalworker is found in each
large section of territory, but rarely more than one. Some human
theorists reason that the giant slarge hobbies are chosen by the
lesser slarges, either by the giant's parents while raising the
whelp, or after adulthood, by a committee of lesser slarges. Another,
less-popular theory is that there is a single particular giant slarge
who travels around the Wonggarisi, telling the other slarges what to
do, as _his_ hobby.
The Giant Slarge output is mostly consumed and used by the
lesser slarges. Giants that specialize in training dinosaurs, say,
are taken by the lesser slarges to help herd dinosaurs in attacks on
human or goblin areas. Giants that specialize in making magic items
are heavily "patronized" by the lesser slarges. Many giants seem
slipshod about caring for themselves, and often a small team of
lesser slarges will take upon themselves the task of feeding a
particular giant.
GOVERNMENT: the lesser slarges are manifestly in charge. The
giants are artistes and philosophers, who sit back and are enormously
self-centered, concerned with their species only intellectually. The
lesser slarges have the drive and ambition to rule the slarge race,
and do so. They do not appear to have a central government, and when
a lesser slarge sees something that needs to be done, he gets his
gang to do it. It is believed that the instances of "dominance
battles" amongst lesser slarges are NOT to determine leadership, but
are violent differences of opinion as to what course of action the
group is going to take next.
Lesser slarges obey giant slarges inasmuch as they want the
giant slarges to keep producing. Hence, if a giant slarge wants ore
to make more swords, the lesser slarges may act as a group to mine
the ore, so that the giant slarge can devote himself entirely to
hammering out the swords.
MAGIC: slarges have unusual magic. Perhaps they are trying to
displace human spirits as well as the human species? They have a
number of otherwise-unknown spirit spells, such as "Padding" and
"Anti-Healing".
SOME SLARGE SPELLS:
Padding (variable): each point adds 1d6 false hit points to
each hit location of the slarge. Roll once, and add the same amount
to each location. For instance, if a 4-point Padding were cast, and a
14 were rolled on the dice, the Slarge would add 14 points to each
hit location. These extra hit points are "outside" any armor or other
defensive spells, and are eaten up first, before any damage is done
to the slarge.
Anti-Healing (variable): an attack spell. If successful, the
target loses 1 hit pt per pt in the Anti-Heal in a single location
chosen by the attacker.
The dreaded CYCLE: This is not a spirit spell, but Something
Else. It is hard for the Slarges to do, and presumably it costs them
permanent POW or something, for it is rare, and usually aimed only at
a human leader. This spell is hated and feared, as its effects are
permanent and little-understood. In effect, it changes all the
targets' characteristics as follows: his STR becomes his CON, his CON
becomes his SIZ, his SIZ becomes his INT, and so forth, clear-round,
until his APP becomes his new STR. Of course seven applications of
Cycle will bring you round full-circle back to where you started.
Some researchers believe that certain Giant Slarges have used
the Cycle spell to give themselves enormous INT or POW (by using
their great SIZ).
Slarges are sometimes believed to know sorcery or divine
magic, and maybe they do, but it is also possible that they are
learning mysterious extra magic of their own that is not spirit
magic, but Something Else. Mysticism? Draconic magic? Who knows?
SLARGE METAL: the slarges produce their own particular type
of metal which, for lack of a better name, is called "Slarge Metal".
It is the only metal known to most inhabitants of Tarien, anyway.
Slarge Metal is nasty stuff. It is irritating to the touch (for a
human, not a slarge), and prolonged contact with it causes a skin
rash and eventually ulceration. Presumably it was created
specifically as an anti-human weapon, for it does not have this same
effect on reptiles, especially slarges.
A location injured by slarge metal is harder to heal -- one
additional point must be healed in order to cure the wound, even for
first aid. If a single attempt at healing does not completely repair
the location, second (and third) attempts must also heal an extra
point. For instance, if your thigh took 6 points of damage from a
slarge metal speartip, and you applied First Aid, rolling a 3 for pts
healed, only 2 pts would actually be cured, leaving you with 4. If
you then cast a Heal 4, only 3 points would go away, leaving you with
1 still. And that 1 would require at least a Heal 2 to cure.
Joerg:
>the Doraddi "don't let anything unusual happen" style of life
>doesn't feed the roleplayers' urge for action.
In my never-ending quest to promote the Doraddi way of
living, I must say that the Doraddi have all sorts of action going on
in their territory. Anyone who has purchased my campaign log or who
played in my campaign (any of you guys on the net? Jeff Okamoto?)
when we were in Pamaltela can testify to that. But the conflicts are
unlikely to be the good ol' human vs. human duels and fights so
common in Orlanthi country. Instead, you find yourself interacting
with human opponents in the Chief's Council, or trying to negotiate
wedding rights to a woman you desire, or trying to get out of paying
something you owe. There's also plenty of combat in the Doraddi
lands, but it does tend to be against non-human foes. The typical
Doraddi adventure is not an ambush by broos, but a hunt. The
monstrous things that the Doraddi hunt (titanotheres, dinosaurs,
etc.) are fierce enough that the conflict is worth playing out.
IMPORTANT NOTE: apparently I can't tell Sozganjio and Hornilio apart,
and in my last essay constantly mixed them up. Mea maxima culpa.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Head taking
Message-ID: <_7338_Tue_Oct_11_12:17:30_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 11 Oct 94 08:07:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6573
Paul Snow in RQ-ID: 6515
" Does collecting the heads of fallen enemies, in a Celtic-Orlanthi
way, prevent resurrection? Anyone got any Gloranthan justifications on why
Orlanthi should or shouldn't do this?"
I think there are a number of reasons why Orlanthi should do this.
It does prevent resurrection. What's the point in killing someone if they just
come back and you have to do it again? If you are engaged in a war or feud then
you want your enemies to stay dead.
It forestalls charges of murder or unlawful killing. If you take your victim's
head home and display it openly on the walls then you are clearly claiming
responsibility for the deed. If you take back no trophy then people may think
you are ashamed of the deed, and therefore they may suspect it was not a fair
act of war or feud.
It gains you status. Your enemies now have to acknowledge your ability to kill
them and they have to send a herald to treat with you for the return of the
heads. (They would probably like to have the heads back for the funeral services
of their fallen.) You have the opportunity to demonstrate your power or
magnaminity by refusing or agreeing to return the heads.
On a magical front, I believe that someone's head can be used to prevent the
dead person's spirit from seeking vengeance. Presumably you extract guarantees
against this before returning anyone's head to their kin.
Finally, as a gamemaster, I want lots of people taking the heads off corpses.
That way my players can't be sure when the Thanatari show up.
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Shamans and divine magic
Message-ID: <H.ea.AsYeKoYH_&E...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 12 Oct 94 12:50:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6574
All this hickup about the shamans' access to divine magic makes me
remember some points of my off-line discussion (the one we resolved on
the field of honor in Leicester) we actually agreed upon (!!!).
Apparently a lot of people tend to think of getting a divine spell like
this:
Joe Initiate goes to the temple, with his gift of 20 guilders in a
pouch, and seeks out Bob Priest, "Hey, Bob, I thought about it, I'd
really love to get this point of Heal Wound you had on your last ad."
Bob, browsing through his books, "Heal Wound, just a minute, here we
have it, catalogue number 15.3. Yeah, no problem, that's shrine 3.c,
down there. Would you please follow me?"
Joe and Bob shuffle off to the appropriate shrine, in a niche on the
temple wall. Bob activates the shrine, and the runic letters above the
slots go alight: "Insert coins here (sorry, no change)" "Insert POW
here (sorry, no change)" and "Touch the Screen!".
Joe inserts and touches, Bob pulls the lever, and Joe Initiate goes
home, a point of divine magic richer and a couple of guilders and a
point of POW poorer.
Ok, exaggarated, but by how much?
However the objections that shamans gain access to divine spells seems
to stem from this attitude.
Alex and I agreed that getting a divine spell, be it common or special
to the religion, requires a ceremony, if not a little Hero- or
RuneQuest, which involves the action the spell is supposed to perform.
In the case of the (common divine) spell Heal Wound the priest might
enact a ceremony, ritually wound the recipient, and the recipient would
have to heal (or at least care for) this wound while in ceremonial
contact to his deity. Special cult spells usually have a myth
connected, like e.g. Orlanth's Lightning seems related to Orlanth's
Javelin (outside of Prax, where Lightning Boy isn't that well known).
Spells resulting from a successful theft or conquering in the deity's
myth, like Orlanth's Darkwalk, should be harder to get beause the theft
or fight would have to be part of the ceremony.
There will be a difference between a first-time aquisition of a spell
and successive sacrifice for more points of that same spell - later
Darkwalk quests simply will require to slip off the sandals of a black
seated female statue, or so.
I don't demand that all spells are rewritten at once for such
ceremonies, although such certainly would help. The fact that there is
a mini-quest, and that there is more to getting the spell than just
inserting into the correct slot.
Now, if the divine aquisition of a spell already is connected to such a
miniquest, why shouldn't a shaman undergo the same quests? The main
difference is that where the cult member recipient has the priest as
his emergency backup and opener of the path, the shaman has only
himself and his fetch to work with.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: ha...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 11 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <m0R2Tc...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>
Date: 11 Oct 94 12:04:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6575
Subject : Challana Arroy
A friend mentioned a CA subcult representing her son. In this subcult men
are allowed to become High Healers. (The only way for men to become priests)
What do people know about him?
Challana Arroys are sworn not hurt anything that is not chaotic. I have
allways wondered how they are supposed to tell. Why isn't there a spell
to detect Chaos? Or would it be easier to let Urox teach Challana Arroy
cultists the sense chaos skill. Actually, now that I think about it, why
do the Uroxi keep such a useful skill secret? Shouldn't they be teaching
eveybody how to sense chaos, so that they are not the only ones that can
go looking for something disgusting to kill? Or am I confused- can there
be a spirit magic "Detect Chaos"? (Like Detect Gold or Detect wool?) And
a divine "Sense Chaos"? Likewise I suppose there could be sense and detect
Law too. I suppose that a Storm Bull with like a 110% sense chaos could
go Heroquest and create one of the spells.
Subject : Woad
I was reading the new write up of Babeester Gor and really liked it. I
noticed that alot of the geases that the priestess can get involve nudity.
With a warrior cult like BG, that can be particularly dangerous. No
armour for a season can make one particularly vulnerable. But I got to
thinking, if the BG cultists made a deal with the Orlanth temple and talked
them into trading some buckets of Woad, things wouldn't be so bad. I
never saw Woad as a really useful item to the Orlanthi, but the Babeester
Gor could REALLY use that stuff. One other thing, since Woad can only be
made on Orlanth's HHD, is it possible to assume that part of that ceremony
takes place on the Godplane? If so, could woad be used on a Heroquest?
(And since there is no time, never fade away?) I'd think that a really
nasty Windlord who has lived on the heroplane for (relative to what?) a
long time might run around naked with about 20pts of Woad and Shield 10.
(not to mention Prot 8 or some other disgusing combination...)
Subject : Truestone
If Truestone is the physical embodiment of Law, is there a physical
embodiment of Chaos? How about Neutrality? (The philosphers stone of
illumination...hmmm...)
Richard Ohlson ha...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us
---------------------
From: T.J....@soton.ac.uk (T.J.Minas)
Subject: RE: Cult initiation/parent haters!
Message-ID: <1994101218...@willow.soton.ac.uk>
Date: 12 Oct 94 20:17:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6576
Hello again,
A quick reply to Nick's comment on my last para
about Shamanic resurrection. Most Gloranthan shamans do, I believe,
worship Gods. Some do it as formal initiates of certain deities,
others as a Spirit cult mechanism. The God ain't worried! (S)He
gets the worship, that's what (s)he wants. And I think that most
shamans, therefore, if asked to resurrect someone, would probably
try the divine route first, as it is easier for them. Not all,
and not every time, etc. It's just a lot less hassle generally!
Now, onto my real thought. I have just started up a campaign,
set in early 1616, Pavis. Whilst generating the characters, I
allowed them a luck roll each year to try and find someone to take
them on as an apprentice (whatever), eg, most of them had farming
parents, and didn't want to be farmers, so went off to join a
warband etc. This was fine for the Barbarian Belt Orlanthi, but
for the nomads, it is very unlikely that your parents will have
worshipped anyone except Waha, Eiritha, and Foundchild. Hence,
joining (say) Storm Bull, Orlanth or Humakt is not that easy, and
will probably take you several years. What did you do in the
meantime? Those 3-4 years (or more) whilst you were trying your
annual acceptance tests to get into (say) Orlanth, what did you
do as far as worship went? Remain a lay member of Waha/Eiritha?
Because (especially if you were female) you are shafted if you
initiate yourself into the tribal cult and later wish to leave
to join Orlanth! Is there a socially acceptable route for those
(admittedly few) wanna be Orlanthi/Humakti/whatever in the tribe
to progress to initiate status without quite so much hassle? Eg
a grouping of the Orlanthi in a tribe who hang out together and
encourage newbies?
That's enough for now.
Tim
---------------------
From: igor...@bnr.ca (ian i. gorlick)
Subject: Bits needed for resurrection
Message-ID: <_11428_Wed_Oct_12_12:00:27_1...@bnr.ca>
Date: 12 Oct 94 07:59:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6577
Sandy Petersen in RQ-ID 6552:
".. most roleplayers come from a
modern society which has decided that man's "life" centers in the
brain, most roleplayers assume that the same must be true of their
characters as well. I've tried to claim before that the liver is
where the soul is centered. The heart is another claimant. "
I'm inclined to agree that the brain is not the exclusive seat of
the life or soul of an individual. My personal feeling is that you
require a viable body that can live once it is healed, i.e. you need
the head, chest, and abdomen all together. Once this is healed it can
sustain life and then you can worry about regrowing the limbs.
So cutting out and riding away with someone's heart or liver or lungs
would be equally as effective as decapitation for preventing
resurrection.
You will note that the spell descriptions for Regrow Limb, etc. all
indicate that it takes time to regenerate the destroyed location. The
person must remain alive for that period of time. If you resurrect
someone without their heart or brain or whatever then they will die
again long before the part can regrow. I don't believe that the reqrowth
magics will work on a corpse, they require life to be present.
---------------------
From: bma...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Bruce Mason)
Subject: Oh no sorcery: part 2
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410110...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: 11 Oct 94 06:32:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6559
This is the second part of a three-part of how I've derived a sorcery
system that is, I hope, more Gloranathan than the RQ3 model. In this
part I'll illustrate the nuts and bolts of the system. On the whole this
modifies RQ3 rather than starting afresh, so things that are unsaid
either appear on RQ3 or possibly RAG.
How to cast sorcery
-------------------
Sorcery spells are cast by pitting the caster's skill%
vs the number of MPs in the spell in an opposed roll contest. Eg Tim the
mage is 55% in Damage Boost and wishes to cast damage boost 4 on a
companion's sword. To do so he must roll under 55 *and* beat the spell
which must roll with a chance of 20% (4*5). If the sorceror wins she
casts the spell successfully, if the spell wins the sorceror has failed
to cast it. Generally the player rolls for her PC and the GM for the
spell, and vice-versa for NPCs. Consequently, as in RAG, the sorceror's
limits are defined purely by her knowledge of her arts.
Results of casting.
Sorceror wins with a critical: spell only costs 1MP to cast. (Any MPs
spent in ceremony or spell boosting are still spent).
Sorceror wins normally or by default: spell costs whatever MPs were put
into it.
Sorceror loses but makes spell roll (partial success). Spell
fails, sorceror loses 1MP plus any MPS spent on ceremony or spell boosting.
Sorceror loses: spell fails and sorceror loses whatever MPs were spent on
the spell.
Sorceror fumbles: as loses plus roll on the fumble table.
Both lose: spell not cast, no MPS spent at all. Vaguely embarrassing.[1]
That's it.
The Art of Sorcery
------------------
The sorcery manipulation skills (ie duration, intensity, multispell and
range) no longer exist. Knowledge of a spell allows all sorcery users to
manipulate its range, intensity and duration in the following way.
INTENSITY: each MP gives 1 point of intensity.
RANGE: base range is 10meters. Each MP given for range gives +50m of
range, this does *not* add to the base range. Eg 3MPs of range gives a
range of up to 150m, not 160m.
DURATION: a base temporal spell lasts 10 mins. Each MP of duration gives
30mins, this does *not* add to the base duration. Eg 3MPs of duration
gives a duration of 1&1/2 hours, not 1hr 40 mins.[2]
CEREMONY: this has been modified to allow a caster to spend a mixture of
time and additional MPs to make a spell easier to cast. Rather than use
the fibonacci table from RQ3 the ceremony add uses the 1-5 table below.
Skill MRs/hours MPs spent Vessel Expanded
addition of ceremony Range Intensity
+5% 1 1 1km 1
+10% 2 2 2 2
+15% 3 3 3 3
+20% 4 4 4 4
+25% 5 5 5 5
+30% 10 6 10 10
+35% 20 7 20 20
+40% 30 8 30 30
+45% 40 9 40 40
+50% 50 10 50 50
+55% 100 11 100 100
+60% 200 12 200 200
+65% 300 13 300 300
+70% 400 14 400 400
+75% 500 15 500 500
etc etc etc etc etc[3]
Example: In Tim's case above he wants to be sure of casting his spell
(100%) which means he need another 45%. He could spend 40mr over it but
doesn't have that much time, or he could spend another 9MPS to give him
the +45% but doesn't have that many spare MPs. He elects instead (being
the good little mini-maxer that he is) to spend 5mrs (+25%) and 4 MPs
(+20%) to give him +45% total.
That is all a sorcery user ever needs to know about casting sorcery. It
is slightly more complex than RQ3 in some ways but is also a little more
flexible.
THE MYSTERIES OF SORCERY
------------------------
The great difference between a wizard and her flock is that she has
emptied her vessel after years of preparation. In mundane game terms a
vessel is an attribute that can change over time that measures a wizard's
spiritual potency, ie. it limits how much she can manipulate her magic.
At the end of her initiatory ritual a wizard sacrifices a point of POW
and gains a vessel with a capacity of 1d3. A vessel's capacity is
usually referred to as a wizard's Presence. Basically Presence is to
vessel as MPs are to POW. Your presence is equal to how much of your
vessel you have available to use at one time.[4]
A vessel can increase through POW sacrifice --- 1 POW gains you +1 to
your vessel --- or through taking holy vows --- each vow may give you
+1-3 vessel depending on its severity. Similarly breaking vows and/or
acting in an unacceptable manner can temporarily or permanently reduce
your vessel. I'll go a bit more into this next time.
Vessel abilities.
-----------------
1) Maintain spells. This is the most common use for the vessel and is
referred to as casting a spell into your vessel.
Simply a spell can be maintained indefinitely by using presence equal
to the MP cost of the spell. Eg., Tim decides to keep spirit resist 3 on
permanently. He has a presence of 14 normally, this is reduced to 11
whilst he maintains the spell. Tim can drop the spell any time he wishes
if he wants some more presence but he will have to recast the spell if he
wants to get it back into his vessel. Finally if a sorceror wishes to
maintain a spell and then move away from it (eg., casting on an
associate) then the spell expires as soon as the sorceror moves out of
range. Eg if Tim maintains a Damage Boost 4 on his staff of rank and
someone runs off with it the spell expires as soon as the thief gets more
than 10m away.
2) Extended spell range. One reason why sorcerors are so dreaded is
their ability to cast magic over huge distances, they do this through
using their vessel. Simply each 1pt of presence gives 1km of range using
the 1-5 table. This presence is used up until the spell expires. Eg Tim
in his mountain retreat has spotted a mean looking bunch of Uroxi at the
end of the valley and decides to give them a fright. He knows that a
landmark at the valley entrance is 6MPS away (it's actually just over
8km) and he uses all 14pts of his presence to cast a Palsy 8 and maintain
it in his vessel. The first time he gets the chieftain's left arm so he
drops it out of his vessel and tries again, next time getting him in the
head --- enough to worry even the most stubborn Urox.
3) Spell combination. This works a bit like the old multispell in that
it allows a sorceror to combine 2 or more spells into 1 single spell.
The cost of the combined spell is equal to the cost of the largest spell
plus the number of spells to be combined together. This requires the
requisite amount of presence to cast but does *not* use it up. In essence
the sorceror uses her vessel to combine the spells and then casts the
resulting spell normally. Eg Tim decides to cast damage boost 5, damage
resist 5 and bless staff 5 on his staff. This costs 5 MPs +3 for the
number of spells for a grand total of 8MPs. Therefore it will require at
least 8 presence available for the casting. Note that unless Tim decides
to leave this spell in his vessel it will expire in 10mins. If he does
put it in his vessel it will use 8 pts of Presence.
4) Multitargeting. This simply allows a sorceror to use his vessel to
cast the same spell at two or more targets. As with combining the cost
of the spell is equal to the MPs in its casting plus 1 for each target.
Eg. if Tim wanted to palsy more than 1 person in the example above he
could use this ability. As with combination the sorceror must have
enough presence available to cast the spell. So in Tim's case he would
have to wait either until the Uroxi got closer or drop the intensity of
his palsy as he only has 14 presence available to use.
5) Arcane links. These are a form of magical perception that allow
sorcerors to cast spells. Generally you use 1 pt of presence in a
ceremony ritual to form an arcane link with one person, place or thing.
GMs should feel free to be as picky as they want. Most sorcerors use
this to keep tabs on a trusted companion or safe bolt hole. Some rituals
include (as it were) a free arcane link (eg. homing circle). An arcane
link does not give information as to distance or direction and can be
magically disrupted --- for example Magasta's pool disrupts links, as did
the Syndic's ban.
6) Expanded intensity. This is a judgement call to be made on an
individual basis as it goes against some Gloranthan principles, namely
that large-scale magical creation/alteration is the preserve of the
Gods. Basically the idea is that a sorceror can expand the effect of the
spell using the 1-5 table. Again the spell is limited by the sorceror's
presence and uses it up until the spell expires. Eg., a sorceror could
cast a spell with an effective intensity of 20 with just 7MPs.[5]
Notes
-----
As can be seen the sorceror's vessel is her lifeblood. Increasing
her vessel will obviously be a high priority and the final part of this
article will demonstrate some ways and means of so doing. As for spell
lists --- I generally use the RQ3 list with some modifications and have
added in some of the spells from RAG.[6] I think the battery of effects
above make the sorceror about as powerful as under RQ3. I haven't
spelled out every facet cause readers of this list should be pretty
switched on.
====================
Footnotes
---------
[1] This probably seems a lot to take in at once, however I've been
using opposed rolls for so long now that for all of us the system is
second nature. If you don't want to use opposed rolls you could probably
use the resistance table: pit spell%/5 vs MPs.
[2] The reason behind not adding the base manipulation is purely for
simplicity. The idea is that the spell is cast and then forgotten about
for the duration --- in theory. The casting cost for range and duration
is linear but quite generous compared to other forms of magic in
Glorantha.
[3] I use this table for all non-linear relationships as it is
relatively easy to use and doesn't accelerate too fast. I just use my
fingers to count up how it goes.
[4] My understanding of how Sandy uses vessel is different to this. I
think it starts at Free INT + Magic Bonus and can be increased through
vows in a similar way to the above. This is probably due to different
campaign styles, his seem to be fairly condensed in time but range al
over the place whereas mine have been taking place over 30 years or so of
game time often with one particular focus in space.
[5] I used this for a while as a way to allow big illusions and control
of large amounts of substances. Eg an expanded intensity 20 (effect 5000
ie opacity 20 with 4980m3 of volume) could cover a volume of 25m*20m*10m
or so which makes perhaps a small tower illusion. The players liked it
and it could make magic quite dramatic sometimes but it seems to go
against the very small-scale magic available in the rest of Glorantha.
Generally if you want to make an illusionary tower you need a whole
community at work on making enchantments or a good lifetime's work for a
solitary magus. So I'm dubious. I guess it all depends on your personal
Glorantha.
[6] If you use RAG spells with this you have to roughly halve their
effect as they generally are twice as powerful per intensity as the RQ3
equivalents.
---Bruce.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: [FormPlural(geas)]
Message-ID: <941013192...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 13 Oct 94 19:22:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6589
Nick (self-confessedly) whinges:
> RuneQuest's "Geas" tables are unusual in that while they do make it clear
> what "pure" Humakti or Yelmalions will be like, no "minimum standard" is
> imposed by them. So (one presumes) a Humakti without the "Never use poison"
> geas would feel no moral qualms about doing so [...]
I disagree, though granted there's a lack of any such statement. I think
the geas-like behaviour is generally seen as admirable, though persons not
subject to it won't consider themselves to have strayed overly if they
fail to observe it in a "justifiable" way. For example, using poison
against a 12 meter Undead Illuminate Yanafal Tarnils/Pocharngo giant isn't
likely to get you reprimanded by the temple hierachy, while doing so in a
Humakti dual wouldn't be so highly thought of.
> Perhaps a mechanic that encourages players to act in accordance with as
> many Geases as possible in order to reap maximum benefits from their
> deity-of- choice. Making temple POW gains, or MP recovery, or something
> else magical, somehow dependent on correct behaviour.
This and Nick's other braindumps seem sensible ideas _as well as_ geasa,
rather than instead of 'em. For things that really _are_ minimal standards
of behaviour, and not, as many of the geasa are, personal sacrifices.
> I just think people are more likely to publicly renounce some generally-
> accepted "sin" (and afterwards, pleasingly, receive some benefit for it)
> than to select or have imposed a *random* penalty to receive a peculiar
> benefit.
Now this I heartily subscribe to. There may be some at least arbitrary
element to the gaining of the odd geas ("The chief diviner has determined
you're a number 34, my son, in the lack of any obvious lack of moral
rectitude"), but most should have some gameworldsensical element to them.
The published table may also tend to exagerate the degree of variation in
any given locality, too: a particular temple may customarily issue
eat no bird meat, or wear no left leg armour, rather than the whole range
of eat/armour geasa, according to exactly what the local myth says
Yelmalio did, or had happen to him.
> [...] But this may
> just be that the rule is presented backwards to what I'd prefer: picking
> your (divinely-granted) benefit and *therefore* suffering your (non-self-
> imposed) restriction. Should the shoe instead be on the other foot?
The shoes are on both feet simultaneously. Cut out the table and swap over
the two halves if left-to-right reading is unavoidable.
> Of course, the fact that *only* the randomly-imposed prohibitions etc. are
> described as Geases adds to the strangeness; if you rewrote Chalana Arroy
> (for example) to say that "all Healers must take a Geas to harm no living
> being", the term would feel more natural when encountered in its Humakti
> context. Or we could call the aberrant "geases" "Vows", or "cult duties",
> or some such?
And wrong in the CA one. A geas isn't simply a vow, it's a particular
magical state (or enchantment, but not in the RQ3 sense), with both positive
and negative effects. (In the sense that a gift and geas are effectively
the same magic.) The CA vow is a more social convention, though doubtless
a magically enforcable one.
> And, furthermore: whoever gave Yelmalions their ludicrous armouring Geases
> obviously thought as hard about the techniques of Hoplite and Phalangite
> warfare as MOB did in his memorable passage on 2H Spear w/Shield in Sun
> County.
I sense Brookian understatement at work here. What's the problem with
this passage, which is, BTW, more a word-for-word RQ3 transliteration
of the ole CoP section than any fresh hell? Perhaps defence -> Dodge
loses a little in the translation.
Peter J. Whitelaw:
> I cannot envision a 'formula' for such rewards since they
> would be derived from he GM's appraisal of the players' good roleplaying.
Not really, geasa are pretty much either literally observed, or broken;
college tries or "breaching the spirit" are fairly beside the point, I
think.
> If one is using PDP, however, the concept might well be abstracted in terms of
> the Traits & Pasions mechanism.
Only in very general terms (though I approve of using T&P, in any
case). One could admittedly attempt to unify the two, say by making
breach or conspicuous observance of a geas cause for decrease or
increase of the most-obvious-related Trait (or by using directed
Traits). Frex, one could say the various Never Eat geasa were
Temperate ones, the armour ones were Valourous ones, etc. (So breaking
one of the former might get you an Indulgent check, even if you don't
"have" that geas.)
> In my campaign we are working towards some sort of system by which
> progress in a cult is a function of one's religious virtue total. If
> it's above 60, you get access to Common Divine Magic, 70 gets you
> Reusable Common and One use Special whilst above 80 gets you the whole
> arsenal. Obviously, these levels correspond to those of Initiate,
> Acolyte and Priest although we use those terms rather loosely.
Well, they don't, quite, and I'm not sure that Common magic should be easier
to obtain than Special spells. Judging by spell availability at shrines,
Lodril temples, and for some flavours of Rune Lord, the reverse seems to
be more true.
> I also allow players to subtract one tenth of their religious virtues
> total from their 1d100 DI rolls.
Joerg and I were kicking round such ideas, though this was more of a
sidelight to the question of what DI should actually _do_. I persoanlly
feel DI should be linked at least as strongly to religious virtues (by
perhaps a more general mechanism than Traits, though) as to POW.
Ian Gorlick reveals:
> Yelmalions at key points in their career undergo minor heroquests, and
> their geases are apointed by the consequences of the quest.
Took the very words. In the case of the Yelmalions, this seems to be
assorted collateral damage, while for the Humakti, the geas is an integral
part of the gift being quested for. (In the Tales version, that is;
abjure utterly the shoddy fabrication in CoP. Some of the correspondances
are a tad weak, mind you, still.)
Furthermore, I think this sort of thing _does_ happen to questors in other
cults, though not usually to initiates, or on such a systematic basis.
Most often they will be unforeseen, "bad" results: you flub a Hippoi quest,
and are forced into a geas prohibiting you from riding a horse, say, or
if a fox spirit defeats you, you get forced to Never Harm a Fox, though
sometimes they will be involved as part of the "good" result, a la Humakt.
> This interpretation opens a new possibility. If, in a subsequent ritual,
> the Yelmalion managed to take back a corresponding piece of armour, then
> the obligation would no longer exist.
I can see thias might come up, but it wouldn't simply be a case of going
back on the same HQ and hoping you roll better (or read fewer comics at
the back of the gaming group). That quest, done at that "level", is a
Done Deal, and can't be directly reattempted without "upping the stakes".
This is, IMPO, what the WILL rules were (or should have been) getting at;
sustained HQing progressively reduces your freedom of action in particular
areas, both mythically and mundanely, until you become almost a godplane-
embedded charicature of yourself and your deeds. Time to Light the Flame
of Sartar and Retire.
As to why Humakti have the "same" dumb "no armour on hit location [blah]"
geas: note that in the Healed Humakt writeup (over-healed, according to
Sandy, who's still to fill in the missing gifts and geases), you only
get this if you take the enchant weapon vs. that hit location gift.
There's presumably a myth explaining this, in terms roughly on the lines
of Humakt and [opponent] agreeing to trade blows to the [location]. Humakt
receives blow, taking wound, but surviving, being That Hard, then
spiflicates opponent. Pardon my brevity and lack of ICness.
Alex.
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Arkati and Illumination
Message-ID: <941013204...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 13 Oct 94 20:40:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6592
I bring dire tidings to Jonas:
> >This assumes that the Arkati regard themselves as Illuminates, which
> >Greg assures (nay, chastens) me is not the case.
> Ho-hum. Gregged again. CoP (our reference for all this) says that Arkati
> consider themselves the epitome of the Light Side.
I'd forgotten about this line (CoT, to be picky), though I knew I'd received
that impression from _somewhere_; I should have thrown that back at Greg. ;-)
> If we want to salvage
> that old description, then we can assume that at least _one_ Arkat movement
> (perhaps a really underground one that hasn't been written about yet)
> preserves the original secret of Arkat's Illumination and encourages it
> among its members.
What Greg seems to think is that the cults of the Dark Empire, and perhaps
some of the latter-day Arkat cults, had their own "system of information"
which was like Illumination in some ways (such as ability to detect
Illuminates, I'm tempted to guess), but not equivalent to it, or thought
of as at all similar. Asking him for much detail on this may be fruitless,
as he seems to be rethinking Pelorian idea on illumination, pouring scorn
on all existing and any possible future rules for illumination (et al),
and is being very quiet about Arkat cults in the 3rd age.
In any case, given the theories, which, whether "true" or not, might
certainly plausibly be expounded in Glorantha, such as Arkat and Nysalor
becoming ultimately indistingishable or interchanged, it's clearly
possible for a (probably Pelorian, perhaps Ralian) cult to espouse both
worship of Arkat and Illumination.
> >Given the freedom Illuminates have to act however they wish, neither the
> >"Light" or "Dark" side is so much as mould, as a handy label.
> Yes, we know: that's our point. The passage you're citing is an attempt to
> discredit the dualism. As I thought I'd made clear with my closing remarks.
You seemed to be saying, rather, that "some Illuminates might not be either
Dark-siders or Light-siders". What I'm suggesting is that it's basically a
philosophical distinction, and trying to classify individuals by it is a
bit pointless. Though doubtless some people do so, based mainly on their
own personal morals, ethics, and axes.
Alex.
---------------------
From: pa...@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: FAZZUR THE GREAT
Message-ID: <941013205...@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 13 Oct 94 20:51:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6593
Paul Reilly replying to David Hall (X-RQ-ID: 6563)
BRILLIANT. Fazzur is My Hero, possibly my favorite Gloranthan, and I
was deeply puzzled. Kudos to David and Joerg for this wonderful, and
insightful, discovery.
-Paul
>The real reason to take heads is to _use_ them. No, not in the Thanatari
Celts used to lime up heads and throw them at the kinfolk of the head.
I adapted this for the older, more shamanic Orlanthi (those Kolatings up in
the hills, y'know) and gave them a ritual like this. The ghost of the
beheaded person engages kinfolk in spirit combat if you hit one with the
limed-up head. Lots of fun. Remember ghosts are most dangerous to kinfolk
of the deceased anyway, in most cultures.
We play taking the head pretty well prevents resurrection - it's hard anyway.
Orlanthi do this, for example, to other Orlanthi who go over to the Lunars.
If they can... (Remember, the Lunars have Resurrection)
I have some other stuff to say about this but just discovered that
Ian Gorlick said most of it already (6573)...
Harald Smith (6572) writes:
>the Sun is ABOVE the
>moon and the light would be on top, not the side (unless you come up
>with some convoluted theory about light bending downward).
Umm. The Moon is way north of Magasta's Pool, center of the Middle
World, and the Sunpath is mostly in the southern half of the Skydome.
Pretty side-on lighting by my reckoning.
Second: Make a little drawing. Light curving UP would be hitting the
south face of the Moon - Light curving DOWN would be more on the top. ANd
the Clement Longhair theory (promulgated by me and quoted by Greg) is
that light, like Fire, tend to rise toward its natural home, the Sky World.
Thus, Light curves UP and Moon is sunlit on its southern face, not on
top. Even with straight light rays (pshaw) the southern face of the Moon
is lit. Draw a side view of Glorantha and convince yourself.
Joerg wrote (6754):
>Alex and I agreed that getting a divine spell, be it common or special
>to the religion, requires a ceremony, if not a little Hero- or
>RuneQuest, which involves the action the spell is supposed to perform.
This is the way I play it also, with some additions.
A big, established, old, civilized temple will have very formalized
quests with little real danger. They have worked out the bugs and you
can "just buy the spell", not even acting out the quest on a PLAYER level
(although of course the character does) because it is so foreordained.
A small, backward, or primitive temple will support only a few quests
(maybe none!) in this way. YOU CAN STILL QUEST FOR THE SPELL. However,
it may be more expensive in Power, it may be more dangerous, and you
may not get quite the result you planned!
Very primivite areas that are just starting up on this whole "cult" thing,
e.g., the Harangvats around the Sweet Sea, may have NO formal temples at
all, but people can STILL quest as in the previous paragraph - it's just
more free form. You have to be guided by your folktales in this case. No
priests, just informal leadership of older people who have accomplished
some quests in the past. (This can evolve into formalized religion eventually,
with the priests controlling the knowledge of how to quest and access to the
sacred sites)
Oh, I wrote some of this up for Trickster some years ago. It should be
archived at soda.berkeley.edu...
>why shouldn't a shaman undergo the same quests?
Or make up her own. That's what we do...
>the shaman has only himself and his fetch to work with.
Ahh. We play this a bit differently. The shaman's friends & loved
ones (husbands and lovers usually for our female shaman) stand by and
guard the body while the shaman quests (she is a catatonic trance shaman,
lies there and then tells about it later, as much as she remembers. SOme
shamans are psychodrama shamans and describe their quest in realtime)
Anyway, the events on the mundane plane reflect what is going on in
the spirit world. For example, when Wolverine (the Totem) was trying to seduce
her into a false path in the spirit world, a physical wolverine attacked and
was beaten off by her husband and a friend. Their success or failures
influenced the spiritual battle, and vice-versa. It would be VERY HARD
to write rules for this stuff, if someone can I will be pleased and
impressed.
_Paul
Richard Ohlson writes about Sense Chaos:
>why do the Uroxi keep such a useful skill secret?
My answer: they don't The skill comes about because of their link
to their god, through Initiation. It can't be taught. Only by partaking
of the blood of the Bull can you learn his secrets...
To me, Initiation is a PROFOUND step, which can bring mental, spiritual,
and physical changes to the Initiate. You are mixing your soul with that
of a God! For example:
Urox: Sense Chaos, a new sense. Painful and useful.
Humakt: CAN'T BE RESURRECTED. Big change, no?
Uleria: Whoa boy!
Valind and Himile Initiates can't freeze to death. Oh, they can freeze solid,
but it won't kill them.
Kyger Litor initiates change species!
The reason we don't think about the changes induced by the Big Cults like
Orlanth is that they are the defining cults for their society, and the
immense changes they brought became "just normal". Example: I don't think
that people were free-willed and conscious before Umath came.
-------------------------
Paul Reilly here.
Is the RQ4 list archived somewhere? I want proof of priority for the
Vessel concept. I am unable to comment on Bruce Mason's sorcery system
until I calm down.
-Paul
---------------------
From: ppof...@ozemail.com.au (PAUL POFANDT)
Subject: Wanted : Collected Grisalda
Message-ID: <1994OC...@ozemail.com.au>
Date: 14 Oct 94 21:08:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6594
G'day
Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of the Collected Grisalda.
The local distributers here in Aust. (MOB) have unfortunately run out.
Even a second-hand copy would be appreciated,
Drop me a line on ppof...@ozemail.com.au
Ta. Paul.
Another side issue. Does anyone have any suggestions as to reverting Griffin
Island supplement back to the Balazar area. What differences are there between
Griffen Is. and Griffen Mountain? Anything significant?
Paul.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: In da ahmy now.
Message-ID: <941014015...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 01:57:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6595
Sandy P:
> As John Keegan and
> others have pointed out, for basically unknown reasons (though _lots_
> of theories are bruited about) it is exceedingly rare, with only the
> most trifling exceptions, for women to go to battle.
Sandy makes it sounds like one of the Mysteries of Life, but I think the
basic reasons are fairly evident, it's just a matter of haggling over the
exact overlying cultural details making it exactly as uncommon as it's been.
> [Side non-Gloranthan note: this does not seem
> to apply to individualized one-on-one combats, such as fighter
> pilots. I predict the future will see air force personnel moving
> closely to the 50-50 ratio, with the army and navy never ever
> reaching near it.]
In fact, an awful lot of the jobs in modern armies and navies require no
more physical strength or aggression than driving an F14, so one could
make much the same argument. Of course, this neglects to consider the
social and organisation resistance to ideas like women pointing MLRS's
or 18" guns at people. Many are still struggling with the concept of
employing anyone who's had a kid or sleeps with persons of the "wrong"
gender in any military capacity whatsoever, so I'm not holding my breath
in regards projected gender equalisation.
> While Glorantha is not earth, and there are plenty of female
> warriors, I don't think, for instance, that the Sartar City Militia
> has anything _near_ 15% women among its ranks.
Perhaps not, since despite the name, this is probably effectively a
standing military unit. Small-town militias, and emergency-levied troops
such as those including the much-batted-about Red Hair Lodge could have
something approaching the 15% figure.
> Anyway, my point was that I think that the nepotism and
> desire for control on the part of Esrolia's female leaders would
> ensure that most of the high military leaders would all be women, but
> few of the ordinary soldiers.
I reckon it's probably about 50/50 myself (depending on what is meant by
"high", mind you). This is an easily shocking enough ratio to help maintain
the "ruled by women" stereotype.
> I don't think that this is why their army is so incompetent, tho.
I think the main reason is simply their (relatively) pastoral and peaceful
lifestyle for most of recent centuries, but a secondary effect is that
"male" religions (which include the most common warrior functions --
battalions of Babs Gori or Yelornans seem unlikely) have been "leashed".
If overtly-macho pursuits are a devalued and dead-end-preferment-wise
occupation, it's not going to do much for the general quality, though
there may also be some reaction to this, like the notorious last-chance-
saloon Esrolian Humakti with Very Large Swords.
> Pester Guy, not me.
Guy, consider all those pesters hereby Reflected at you!
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Extrahealing
Message-ID: <941014033...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 03:38:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6596
Nick Brooke argumentum ad authoratatum's:
> I thought Greg's views on the rarity of healing magic in Glorantha (i.e.
> "There's about 1/10th as much Healing in the world as you'd assume from
> playing RuneQuest") were well known by now.
That, however, may be a comment on the gaming MGF syndrome in general,
rather than a specific criticism of RQ in particular. Though personally
I'll start a polite ripple if he recants of "Heal Wound" being a Common
spell. The main practical effect is the "No one leaves this town until
half the party has Heal 4" self-prevervation instinct, which is pretty
much in GM hands.
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Compress those maps! Smaller!
Message-ID: <941014041...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 04:10:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6597
Nils Weinander haggles with Wayne Gaudin over graphics formats:
> uuencoded real graphics is better. GIF or TIFF is preferable over PS since
> they are easier to convert if they don't suit you.
Best for many, and certainly for bandwidth, would be JPEG. Maps can
generally stand having the lossiness cranked up a fair bit, unless they
contain small, hard to read text. (Hi Greg! <g>) I anticipate objections
from the Technologically Inferior here, but this would be an order of
magnitude less spammy.
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Orlanth Rex et al.
Message-ID: <941014042...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 04:27:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6598
David Dunham:
> They probably didn't, or only did so rarely. There are a lot of Orlanthi
> that can't effectively do so now. [Organise into tribes]
I suspect the O. Rex cult corresponds more to the development of kingdoms,
rather than tribes. After all, if you have a single tribe as the top
level of social organisation, then there's only one guy who'd necessarily
be an Orlanth Rex cultist, the tribal king. (Clan chiefs and others can be,
but don't have to be, I think.) Since a cult with one initiate isn't
too interesting, I think there's only really much impetus for a cult of
kingship when you've added yet another level of social organisation,
the federation of tribes, or capital-K Kingdom.
As the Rex subcult was the one to established partially enclosed temples,
I suspect it corresponded to a move into larger cities, and a general
increase in "civilisation".
As to the Victorious subcult, I reckon this may be basically a
patriotically-rebadged Lightbringer, particularly given the Sartar altar
of respectivelty that name, and that ritual function. I'll know
marginally more about what the L. cult is itself like after I beat a
Heroes #4 out of Sam "Pint of G&T, please" Phillips, but I reckon it's
most worshipped in civilised areas, as are the Lightbringers in general,
with Thunderous and the Brother's Ring being more important in rural and
"backward" areas.
Alex.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Resurrect
Message-ID: <941014043...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 04:34:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6599
Nick B. fumes:
> As for Shamans only getting Resurrect from "spirit cults", this is IMHO a
> grotesque God Learnerisation. The shaman is dealing with a "Great Spirit",
> but because the God Learners have decreed that this is in fact a "God" it
> doesn't count as bona fide Shamanism??
Eh? Someone seems to be forgetting that "spirit cults" are GLishly
classified under _Horned Man: the Great Shaman_. How bona fide do you
want? What was being argued about, I thought, was whether some arbitrary
shaman, whatever his local belief system, should be able to "mechanically"
plug spirits back into dead bodies.
> Typical semantic twaddle.
In your titanic struggle with the Nysalors of this list, Nick, perhaps it'd
be wise to bear in mind (at least one of) the (purported) fate(s) of Arkat.
> The ethical question is over
> whether an Evil Sorcerer could cast exactly the same spell by performing
> the same ritual. There are real-world arguments which suggest he could do
> so, incidentally: but nobody was interested last time I brought these up.
I assumed we all just quietly agreed with you. I did, for one. In
particular, I think it's "impossible" to test the moral stature, or
"initiatory status" of someone in a Western religion, much more so than
in a theist cult. So yes, I think that if an Evil Wizard dupes a
congregation into participating in his WIG spell, it would be generally
held to have "worked" in the sense that it wouldn't invalidate the
discharging of religious obligations by the plebs, or any consecrations
or ordinations carried out under his auspices. Naturally, the original
offender will still [verb] in Hell, but that's all beyond mortal Kenneth.
> Joerg writes extremely well in English, and I have told him so often.
He do indeed. Even were it the case that Joerg's TradeTalk were below
that magical publishable 50% barrier, the amount of further work to make
it so would be fairly modest. More so then some native scrawlers it'd be
libellous to name. And personally, I'd settle for considerably worse
yet in the cause of getting my paws on anything other than German in my
paws. Mind you, if his protestations are just a ruse to avoid the tedium
of enenglishing, my lethargic side can only empathise. ;-)
> His
> only problem is that after receiving a corrected idiomatic text for one of
> his articles, he bins it and continues to work from the old version...
Joerg's unidiomatic idioms are rather growing on me: as much as I'd like
to be a zealot of linguistic purity, I think I turned up precisely 900
years too late to do English much good.
Slainte,
Alai.
---------------------
From: al...@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Humakt geasa: supplemental.
Message-ID: <941014044...@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Oct 94 04:42:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6600
Just to wind up Nick, and to answer my own question of Sandy, here's some
(fairly off the cuff) ideas about the "missing" geases from the RQ3 Humakt,
as well as what strikes me as more likely geas/gift combos. Where these
overlap unduly with each other, or official gifts, rationalise as by-temple
or by-region variants, if liked. Zilch playtesting, so beware.
Alex.
Geas/Gift Addenda:
Mistrust all [species]
/ Bless a specific weapon to do +2 damage against [species]
Mistrust all non-Humakti
/ Increase Detect Assassin skill by 20%.
Never eat from a dish; eat no meat on Death week; (etc)
/ +1 to effective CON against poison.
Use no shield
/ Increase points of a given piece of armour by 50%.
Ride no animals
/ Recover fatigue at double normal rate
Use no non-cult spirit magic
/ Recover magic points at double normal rate
Remain silent Death week and each Freezeday, Dark season
/ Detect Undead at no mp cost
Remain silent Truth week each season
/ Initiate: gain a Detect Truth spell, reusable as per Swords
Sword: Detect Truth as per the spell once per day
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Healers Vows
Message-ID: <1994101406...@radiomail.net>
Date: 14 Oct 94 06:21:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6601
Ian Gorlick presented some very fine reasons why the Orlanthi take heads,
which I'm appropriating for my East Ralios campaign. Neat how you combine
Celtic trophy heads and the Viking prohibition against secret murder.
Richard Ohlson wonders
>Challana Arroys are sworn not hurt anything that is not chaotic. I have
>allways wondered how they are supposed to tell.
Presumably they can't, and have to live like those Jews who keep radically
kosher, just in case. So they don't harm anything except what is obviously
chaotic.
>the BG cultists made a deal with the Orlanth temple and talked
>them into trading some buckets of Woad
Note that almost all Babeester Gor worshippers are _culturally_ Orlanthi...
RQ Daily Discussion List
---------------------
From: Mike.D...@vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Porthomeka/Karse/Mucho Esrolia; & Zaranistangi?
Message-ID: <1994101312...@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 14 Oct 94 13:18:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6584
#### Porthomeka ####
For what it's worth, I've always considered Porthomeka to be Esrolian with
a Caladrian aristocracy though conquest or marriage or something else
(surely a good legend in there somewhere). I don't have any problems with
there being folks with some Western blood from Arkat's army, and maybe
backwater villages have debased western words in their vocabulary, but I
think there are enough Malkionoids in the Holy Country already. Rhigos I
think is completely Esrolian, just because it's so big and the Caladrians
don't like cities particularly. Oh, and after MOB's snippet in Tales #9 I
think that Porthomeka is where ducks get their cigars from.
#### Karse ####
David Hall gives me pause with his revelations. If (New) Karse was founded
by Tarkalor Trollkiller it's only fifty years old. If it has a 6K
population then the Carse supplement, with about 450 buildings, is a bit
small. But heck, it's the best we've got.
#### Esrolia ####
Here are a few notes of mine on Esrolian culture. As far as I know, they
don't contradict anything published (and I've no doubt I'll be notified by
the Daily scholars if they do). Several people seem to have done a fair bit
on Esrolia (you kow who you are) and their comments are particularly
welcomed.
There seem to be two different ways of running Esrolia. One way is to
stress the Theyalan barbarian aspects, making Esrolia fairly similar to an
urbanised Sartar but with women in the top political offices. Men are still
the major players in society, and have weapons, property, literacy, and
freedom to do what they like (see Alan LaVergne's story The Smell of a Rat,
in the RQ Companion). Another way is to stress the matriarchal aspects of
the society, making it a patriarchy-in-reverse, and giving men the
political rights and social roles most ancient societies gave to women.
I like the latter approach better. Note that the dearth of published
material could support either interpretation. Neither is necessarily right.
I chose the full-blown matriarchy mostly because I'd like to explore a
society where men are second-class citizens. I think it makes players and
GM confront their preconceptions, and it gives a subtle alien twist to the
game. Because as far as I know there was never a true urbanised matriarchy
in real life, I wanted to explore what it would be like through a fantasy
game. I haven't read the Robert Graves stuff that David Hall suggested, but
I think a matriarchy is neither a blissful utopia nor a mirror-image of a
male-dominated society.
What a visitor to Esrolia might notice:
Architecture: Most of the public buildings are square, cubes half-above and
half-below the ground. The cool cellars are bedrooms and guestrooms, where
a visitor might recline on cushions and sip tea. The upper storey is hot in
summer and draughty in winter, and houses slaves, men, kitchens and store
rooms.
Teams of slaves digging foundations are a common sight along the street.
The excavated earth is used for brick and earthen berms, head-high
embankments which surround towns and villages. Ramps, pits, and steps
leading to shallow amphitheatres are frequently seen.
Small temples and council chambers, often the same building, are
two-storied. The upper story is wider than the lower, and supported by
square carved columns at the corners. Doorways have a lintel stone rather
than an arch, carved with a face that seems to scrutinise those entering.
Running around the upper storey is a religious frieze. Larger buildings
decrease in size with each storey, and resemble crude ziggurats.
Clothes: Most men on the street wear a plain cotton kilt and a wide brimmed
hat. Those working inside, or as part of an entourage, have a short robe
and skullcap. The best dressed men have patterning or stripes on long
robes, and a head wrapping of fine cloth with a long tail. All wear a
knotted belt, notched leather for slaves, intricately beaded for most
others. The pattern of notches or beads signifies their owners or wives,
family, and profession if any.
Women in contrast wear a wrapped skirt or kilt in fine dyed wool or silk,
and a loose tunic and cape. Others wear light cloaks, patterned and
embroidered. Jewellery at the neck, wrist and ankle is common. All but a
few servants go bareheaded, and some women are bare breasted or next to
naked. Status is conveyed by entourage, jewellery, and embroidered patterns
on the edge of a cloak.
Animals: Pigs and donkeys seem to be the only common livestock in cities,
though occasionally a chariot thunders past pulled by four rugged ponies.
Most houses have a resident snake that keeps mice and rats away from the
granary, and tortoises are common pets. Holy women will wear a small lizard
in their hair or on their clothes like a living jewel, and sailors favour
malevolent iguanas that perch on their shoulders. Birds are uncommon, and
regarded as a pest to be exterminated with egg-eating snakes.
Art and Music: Pottery, although functional, is beautifully crafted from
the fine clay common in Esrolia. The best types are Northern Greenware,
Jorsh Blue, and Sylthian. Most artists paint vases and bowls or sculpt
building friezes and pillars. Secular or abstract designs are frowned upon,
as the purpose of art is to glorify the Earth.
Music is demarcated by sex. Low music is practised by men, playing flutes
and reed instruments of a range of sizes as dance or background music.
Musicians form travelling bands, travelling from one wealthy residence to
another. A recent fashion is the singer with a lyre, performing western
ballads and wearing colourful malkioni clothing, but although popular
amongst men and the lower orders such minstrels are frowned upon by the
holy.
Women participate in high music. This is group singing as an adjunct to
religious ceremonies, although hymns have become popular in their own
right. Choral festivals are common in the main centres, and always attract
large crowds from out of town. Choral composers are part of most noble
households, specialising in different forms, such as the pantheony (hymns
of praise in six movements) or the contraphony, where song accompanies
spoken texts.
Roads: Fine smooth roads link almost all cities and towns. These are mostly
used for donkeys laden with grain, but were built to convey women of
importance swiftly between cities. Large partly-enclosed chariots are used,
splendidly decorated and ornamented with tassels and painted shields. A
noblewoman travelling with all her husbands and slaves may need fifty or
more. Because the roads are dusty, bath houses are to be found in every
town. These are for women only, and act as places to meet, relax and do
business.
Slaves: Esrolia practices a form of debt slavery. In times of bad harvest,
a family can indenture a son to the local ruler in return for tax relief or
grain. Slaves are freed after ten years, though terms vary between places
and individuals. They are usually used as agricultural workers or builders
of houses and roads, though moderately bright ones can do clerical work or
learn a trade. Some are employed by their former owner after being freed,
and a few even marry them! Most return to their families, while some enter
a brotherhood.
Woman are not enslaved, except as a criminal sentence or for prisoners of
war. Male prisoners of war are considered beyond redemption, and sacrificed
to the Earth or ransomed. Only those of noble birth can own slaves, and
only a woman can purchase an indenture. Thus, the husbands of nobles are
often given or loaned a slave or two by their wives.
Home Life: The house centres on the hearth, literally. A square firepit
with central oven, it contains a family spirit or ancestor, or an earth
spirit that was already living on the site. The cooking fire burns animal
dung (men spread the human waste on the fields), as the cutting of firewood
is strictly controlled by local rulers. The oven is used for baking
oatcakes and clay. Most day-to-day writing is scratched onto small clay
tablets in a shorthand called White Lies (Latin scholars wills see the
roots here), and conveyed from house to house by children. White Lies are
village dialects, though old temple records are written on parchment in a
similar style. Esrolia has a number of remnants of former languages,
scripts, coinages and even governments that survive only in odd corners
like this.
Brotherhoods: These religious guilds exist primarily to educate young men
in a social role that will make them good husbands. They are one of the few
avenues of social advancement for intelligent men of good family, who are
usually enrolled by their mothers at puberty and stay until married off. A
few remain bachelors with male lovers and rise to become administrators or
priests within the brotherhoods. Each brotherhood has as a patron deity one
of Ernalda's husbands, though worshipped in non-standard ways.
(I've tried to give all the brotherhoods weird names like the fighting
guilds in Geoff Ryman's _The Warrior Who Carried Life_; the Men Who Walk
Like Spiders, the Men Who Have Been Baked etc; but I'd welcome better
ones.)
The Men Who Hoot Like Pied Crows: Court skalds, reciting ancient poems and
sacred tales, usually very long and tedious, in a resonant and melodious
voice not unlike a warbling pasture bird. Patron: Orlanth Longwinded.
The Men who Jabber Outlandishly: Translators, town criers, and messengers.
Those who deliver letters by pony express at night are called the
Whisperers in Darkness. Patron: Argan Argar in his true human form.
The Men of Ink and Reed: Scribes, accountants and record keepers, recording
every immortal word of their wives. Cut river reeds as pens, the background
rasping of which is the indicator of a wealthy house. Patron: Lhankor Mhy.
The Men who Gyrate Unclothed: Ornamental dancers, who also demonstrate
wrestling, athletics, discus and so on, for public and private
entertainment. Patron: Yelm.
The Men of Erotic Prowess: Concubines notorious for drinking and skiving
off, frequently misunderstood by foreigners. Almost always both gay and
butch, and sometimes eunuchs. Patron: Lodril.
The Men who Prance Gleaming: Swordsmen and bodyguards, more decorative than
functional. Gorgeously armoured, they will fight display duels on demand,
using codified tactics and moves (anyone seen Strictly Ballroom :-).
Patron: Humakt.
And there are (Y)elmal(io), Zorak Zoran, Magasta, and Urox in similar
veins. Barntar is a poor man's brotherhood, unstructured and widespread.
Dormal doesn't fit the mould, and offers an escape for oppressed males;
running away to sea. Lhankor Mhy and Issaries have more cosmopolitan aspect
in the larger cities and will take males in reasonable numbers.
So what do people think of all this? Corrections, extrapolations or just
good ideas gratefully received. How does this fit with your personal vision
of Esrolia?
### Zaranistangi ###
I suspect Sandy is the one I'm asking here; in the Troll Gods write-up of
Anilla, one group of human worshippers is the Loper People or Zaranistangi
(cool name), who were whupped in 805 in Slontos by a Seshnelan king.
I want to use the Zaranistangi in my campaign, at this stage having a
player discover a flooded abandoned temple in the Wenelian Islands, only
visible at dead low tide, still containing a hero spirit (a Firshala sort
of setup). The player is a Jakaleel follower, and a sailor, so it all seems
to fit wonderfully, BUT I'd like to know more about the Loper People.
Are they the same as the Nose Lopers, as I recall an extinct tribe of Prax?
What is a Loper anyway?
Blue-skinned, stealthy, human sacrifice - what else do they do?
And where's the best place to look for them these days?
After seeing Sandy's Morokanth and Slarge notes, I'm hoping there's more
info than the one tantalising paragraph in Troll Gods.
Mike.
----
---------------------
From: CHE...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty)
Subject: Vessel=Solace, Upside down pyramids and slarges
Message-ID: <01HI8V5W9...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: 14 Oct 94 12:44:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6585
Kevin Rose
==========
>I keep hitting a wall when I consider the concept of the "Presence Vessel"
>system. It mostly has to do with the concepts of Vampires and other
>creatures that lack POW casting spells whose manipulation depends on the
>previous expendature of permanent POW. So, the question I keep coming up
>with is how does a creature that has no soul create the Vessel?
Having just seen the 'vessel' for the first time (thanks a heap Brian!), I
will posit the simple answer they don't. Sorcery does not really require
the vessel to be cast.
Simply put, vessels are at the very least a Malkioni magical technique
based on their philosophy. They may be the best way to do sorcery but
of course Malkioni always say that they are the best...
IMO, the Malkioni (thiest) would not view the vessel as enslavement of the
hidden self for they have none. My conception of the 'vessel' is that the
Malkioni make a part of their soul die (remember death is the quickest and
surest way to solace) and pass on to Solace. Your soul is still existing in
both here and there and you gain magical power from being in contact with
Solace. This also explains why self mortification practices have such a
good effect on the Presence.
This of course gives the God fearing Malkioni a good reason to believe in God
and the Solace. They themselves already experience it. Of course they are
still tied to the material world and know that they do not fully experience
Solace. But they know that when they die they will. Some philosopher
speculate that you could make other essenses of your body die (such as STR,
CON, INT etc). This may be true but if such practices are psooible their
effects are Secret.
The Athiests and the Sorcerers (maladjusted wizards in Malkioni Society)
treat would IMO treat the Vessel as a tool, a technique, a magical
discipline to remake the world. Just as one diciplines the mind to
comprehend the words of a foreign language so one disciplines the soul.
Holy vows do not work although they may have other techniques.
Rumours of other paths to a vessel exist. The most common is the Zorian
Heresy. Just as the Wizard makes his soul die to gain Presence, the
Zorians exalt part of their soul into an estascy which they claim reaches
Solace. To enhance such a Presence supposedly requires regular sexual
intercourse, drug experimentation and other sordid vices. This of course
may be the rationalization of nocturnal emissions of Juvenile Acolythists.
I shall not describe the peversities the Lunar Empire supposedly practices.
>Greg's answer to how vampires cast spirit magic was that they cannot. As
>they have no permanant power they cannot cast spirit magic. As the fetch
>is a part of their soul/POW, a vampire or other creature without permanent
>POW cannot have one. So how can they cast sorcery?
Strictly speaking one only needs INT and MP to cast sorcery. The Vampires
may be able to create a Vessel using a spell that allows others to
involunatrily donate their soul. They may rely on some other means.
>I haven't heard an answer that didn't seem to be a rules hack. Rules
>hacks are fine, but if the claim is that the precensce vessel system is a
>GUTM (grand unified theory of magic) it doesn't make sense for there to
>be major execptions.
Just remeber. The Vessel may be the GUTM. The Malkioni claim it is.
The Kralori IMO practice something else (they may tie it to their
draconic philosophy). The Fonritians (based on Brians comments about
Sandy using the Vessel system and Sandy's comments about the Fonritian
Sorcerers) do not use the Vessel but rely on an inferior system (RQ3
sorcery skills?). Instead they make up for it with the magics of Ompalam
which more than compensate ie Slavery enchantments etc.
>I also have some other problems involving attitudes towards magic by
>dwarves and many other sorcery users that doesn't really fit Paul's system.
Of course a good answer may be that there is no royal road to sorcery.
Perhaps dwarves do not use the vessel as such but make use of little
implants in their brain. Well not actually implants (as we don't want
Cyperpunk RQ) but little wee vaccuum tubes. Of course the size of this
is such that they have to excise little pieces of useless grey matter
that is found in the head. ie their int goes down for every brain implant.
And of course vaccuum tubes have the problem in that they explode. If a
dwarf fumbles while casting sorcery, he takes 1d6 damage to the head. Now
apparently brain damaged dwarves are not that common so they must have made a
technical innovation.
Using data from Humcti vivisectionists, all implants nowadays seem to
have a crystal attached. This we believe acts as an arcane focus (hooks
them up into the machine is the dwarf phrase) for some mighty machine
which appears to serve as a similar function as the vessel. Attempts to
duplicate the effect of this machine has alas failed.
It is believed that the iron dwarves are arbitarily assigned an vessel size
(captured dwarves called it an account) based on how old the dwarf is. If a
dwarf turns individualist, he will be disconnected.
David Dunham:
=============
>BTW, how do the proposed inverted pyramids of the Kingdom of Ignorance
>stand up? Even regular pyramids are tricky (there's a pyramid in Egypt
>which was under construction when another pyramid collapsed; the architects
>accepted a change order, and the slope of the pyramid changes to make the
>whole structure a little lighter).
I always understood the Ignorant architects to hollow a pyramid size hole in
the ground and then build a hollow step pyramid. Of course the bottom may be
flattened to produce a rink. The sides are supported by the ground. very
stable.
Sandy
=====
>As originator of the damn slarges, it is clearly my duty to do some
>description here.
Wow! Thanks a heap! Of course with the Anit-healing, Padding and Cycle spells
and the Slarge metal, I'm staying away from the place!
--Peter Metcalfe
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6602: jonsg = (Jon Green)
- An empty vessel makes the most noise
6603: DevinC = Dev...@aol.com
- Slarge Cycle
6604: SMITHH = (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
- sunshine on the moon
6605: niwe = (Nils Weinander)
- Inverted pyramids & more
6606: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Moon over Pavis
6607: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Mostali and Presence
6608: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Griffin Island/Mountain
6609: 100270.337 = (Nick Brooke)
- Esrolia
6610: ddunham = (David Dunham)
- Griffin Island
6611: 100116.2616 = (David Hall)
- Oh woe is me!
6612: hasni = (Richard Ohlson)
- Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 14 Oct 1994, part 2
6613: button = (Captain Button)
- Corflu, HQs, Headhunters, Bless Crops
---------------------
From: jo...@hyphen.com (Jon Green)
Subject: An empty vessel makes the most noise
Message-ID: <941014084...@ren.hyphen.com>
Date: 14 Oct 94 10:40:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6602
I seem to have lost the original posting which posited the 'vessel'
theories. Could someone please send it to me? Thanks.
Jon (whose middle finger on the left hand is now one knuckle shorter,
for safety reasons...:)
--
jo...@hyphen.com
j...@sundome.demon.co.uk
---------------------
From: Dev...@aol.com
Subject: Slarge Cycle
Message-ID: <941013144...@aol.com>
Date: 14 Oct 94 03:25:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6603
Devin here:
Sandy gives some nice commentary on Slarges, which I appreciate since my
campaign is going to visit Pamaltela for the first time (en route from the
Bloggom Marshes back to Maniria).
However, I really have a problem with the CYCLE magic as described by Sandy
because it is entirely based upon the fact that, in Runequest the Game, we
write our statistics down on a character sheet in a certain order.
I find this intrudence of RQ gaming rules into the fabric of Glorantha
disturbing. After all, what is the Gloranthan relationship between APP and
STR or between POW and Dex that causes POW to be turned into Dex rather than
any others of the given characteristics.
I would rather see a more rational basis for this Cycle...something to the
effect of Cycle switching a being's physical energies with his mental
energies. In this case, STR would switch with INT, POW with Con, and Dex with
Appeal. Leave Size alone.
Other than that, I really appreciated the Slargfomation Sandy, keep it
coming!
Regards,
Devin
dev...@aol.com
---------------------
From: SMI...@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 724-9843)
Subject: sunshine on the moon
Message-ID: <01HI9DX8F...@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 14 Oct 94 03:31:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6604
Hi all--
- Paul Reilly proposes one means for the sun to shine upon the moon
providing light on the south face and bottom instead of from the top.
The presentation is quite reasonable, but I have a couple comments on this
approach, too. First, you would not get light on the north side and I've
never heard anything that suggested that Karasal, Eol, or the Blue Moon
Plateau did not get the benefit of moonlight. Second, the territories to
the east and west would forever see half moons--I doubt that First Blessed
would be limited to only seeing a half moon. Third, it still means that
the moon only receives light by day.
- Paul Pofandt asks about merging Griffin Island and Griffin Mountain.
I did so a few years back. Some pieces like Soldiers Fort were split up
amongst the other citadels (or dropped altogether like the Soldier Fort
leader). I know some of you received my revised Elkoi writeup awhile back.
I think I have similar writeups of Trilus and Dykene and perhaps some clan
notes (though I'm not positive on the latter). The travelogue speaks to
some of that as well. If you are interested and don't have these, but
would like to, let me know.
Harald
---------------------
From: ni...@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Inverted pyramids & more
Message-ID: <941014140...@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 14 Oct 94 16:06:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6605
Nils Weinander writing
Inverted pyramids:
Peter Metcalfe:
>I always understood the Ignorant architects to hollow a pyramid size hole in
>the ground and then build a hollow step pyramid. Of course the bottom may be
>flattened to produce a rink. The sides are supported by the ground. very
>stable.
That's how I visualized it too, but on the other hand:
Joerg:
>Imagine an Ignorance acropolis: lots of squarish blocks standing up,
>creating a more forbidding version of modern metropoles with their
>square block habitation ghettos, all sloping down on the inside
>...
>Connect these blocks with random
>bridges and stairways, and you get a nightmarish version of Fritz Lang's
>Metropolis.
This image is superb. I will definitely use it in combination with above:
the big i-pyramids are dug into the ground, but all major buildings have
smaller i-pyramids on the roof.
If Glorantha was a more technically advanced world I would add interiors
like Piranesi's Carceri d'Invenzione.
_____
Alex on graphics formats:
>Best for many, and certainly for bandwidth, would be JPEG.
JPEG is probably OK. Most important is to avoid PS.
_____
Esrolia:
Mike Dickison:
>So what do people think of all this? Corrections, extrapolations or just
>good ideas gratefully received. How does this fit with your personal vision
>of Esrolia?
I liked it a lot. I think this is one of the most useful things I have seen
on the daily.
>Birds are uncommon, and
>regarded as a pest to be exterminated with egg-eating snakes.
Why? earth and sky aren't enemies.
_____
Slarges:
Why are the lesser slarges hostile to humans? I thought there was room
for a lot of people on the fertile Pamaltelan plains, so there should be
some deeper reason than just scarcity of resources.
_____
/Nils W
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Moon over Pavis
Message-ID: <H.ea.SmH...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 14 Oct 94 18:25:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6606
A short reminiscence on how the question arose again:
The Cover of SiP shows representatives of Pavis meeting the Coders
who apparently disembark on top of the Pavis Temple in New Pavis.
Well, look at the aerial view of New Pavis (back cover of RoC), and
compare it with the Rubble map. You'll find that the SIP cover looks
almost in the same direction as the aerial view. This direction is
approximately east.
Thus, whether the moon is visible from Pavis (as I think it is) or not,
it couldn't possibly visible on the SiP cover. Nor on any other of the
Renaissance covers (SC looks northeast, RoC southeast). From Pavis, the
Moon would be visible above the Nine Good Giant Mountains, if viewed
from before the guild hall, above Riverside.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Mostali and Presence
Message-ID: <H.ea.5hkEw7&pv...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 14 Oct 94 18:44:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6607
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 6591
> Paul here. I've addressed the issue of the Mostali before. I think that
> non-apostate, unbroken Mostali DON'T have what we think of as normal human
> consciousness, instead they are much more "automatic".
I wonder how this would be expressed in PDP personality traits. Do all
non-individualist dwarfs have the ideal traits of their caste (as they
sart out, later remain within say 15% of these traits? Or do they start
out with an undeveloped personality, like dragonewts? I like the ideal
traits better, giving all dwarfs an Energetic 20 (100%), for instance.
> They have Presence
> INSTEAD OF Power. Every "standard" dwarf can do the same sort of tricks
> with magic that a Human master sorcerer can accomplish only after years of
> study.
[...]
> They are running on autopilot. A Wizard who got to sit down and analyze
> a Mostali worker by watching him with Mystic Vision for many years might
> eventually realize that the Mostali was more of a Living Tool (like a Staff)
> than a real person.
> A Mostali who wakes into "personhood" (becomes broken) will lose some of
> his magical ability and gain free will in exchange. Is this a good trade or
> a poor one? You be the judge.
Where would you start to call a dwarf broken?
From what you said above, an Individualist dwarf might develop a
personality the same way a human sorcerer develops his Presence: slowly,
one step at a time, he transforms part of his Presence into POW. Thus
Individualist dwarves become more alife than non-heretic Mostali.
An Apostate would all of a sudden transform all of his Presence into
POW. Since this cuts him from the most practical applications of his
sorcery, he is likely to change his magic for some cultic magic. Since
aging has become a serious threat, I doubt many apostate dwarves would
go to God Forgot or other atheist sorcerers and undergo a long and
tedious apprenticehood.
What would follow of this for the Third Eye Blue sorcerers? Don't they
use any vessel techniques, or did they develop a parallel to the
Kingdom of Logic method?
I liked the Vampire explanation.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Griffin Island/Mountain
Message-ID: <H.ea.tNA...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 14 Oct 94 18:52:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6608
Paul Pofandt asked in X-RQ-ID: 6594 about the differences between
RQ3 Griffin Island and RQ2 Griffin Mountain.
Apart from rules system changes, the main difference is that lots of
Glorantha references have disappeared from GI. Playability has been
improved in Griffin Island with all the nifty hand-outs, too bad the
background was so maltreated.
Perhaps it is easier to recount the parts which haven't changed:
The Citadels haven't changed much except in name, at least in map
lay-out:
Surlt -> Trilus
Ockles -> Elkoi
Nidik -> Dykene
Soldier Port in GM is Soldier Ferry, in the woods between
Balazar in the southeast and Holay and Imther to the west, on a major
river flowing into the elf sea. This settlement guards one of the few
routes into Votankiland/Balazar. It wasn't detailed in Griffin
Mountain, so the info might be used. Maugre could be a renegade
Agimori from Prax...
The map of Griffin Island still is reminiscent of Balazar:
- the Fire Mountains to the south would be the troll and dwarf
inhabited Rockwoods,
- Ostankach Bay would be the Elf Sea
- the Dwarf Mountains (actually Greatway in GM) wold correspond to the
position of the flank of the Rockwoods south of Gonn Orta's Pass,
reaching into Votankiland/Balazar.
- the Zutchko hills would be the Brothers and Bear Hills dividing the
Elder Wilds from Balazar
- the Mosgarni hills would be the troll hills in the Elder Wilds.
- the forests woud cover the foothills of the Rockwoods and the area
surrounding the Elf Sea. All of Balazar lies south of the Elf Sea.
What has changed most are some of the inhabitants, and the maps.
The Wild Lands of Griffin Island correspond to the Elder Wilds.
Generally speaking: there are neither orcs nor slarges in Balazar
and the Elder Wilds. The slarges have replaced the trolls of the
Elder Wilds as well as wandering bands from Dagori Inkarth - these
didn't make it into any of the troll supplements either, which is a
pity.
Also lost is Gonn Orta's castle in the Rockwoods southeast of the
Elder Wilds.
A lot of outsiders in Griffin Island come from familiar places in
Dragon Pass and the Holy Country - Bluebird, the daughter of the
sheriff of Apple Lane in one of the orlanthi bands, etc.
Ockles has undergone a change close to rape - Elkoi was the westernmost
of the Balazaring citadels, and had been conquered by King Phargentes
of Tarsh after he grew fed up with the constant raids on his land
staged by the citadel's ruling family, the Vizkinni clan. The role of
the Lunar Provincial Army has been taken by the Redeye worshipping
orcs. Well, we know that the Lunars are scum, but that bad?
This affects most of the major characters of that citadel. In general,
the following cult change scheme can be used:
Hilme -> "Yelmalio" (I'd actually use the cult write-up as in Griffin
Island, to allow for the differences to the Sun County variant of the
cult.)
Aeolus -> Orlanth (Adventurous)
Redeye -> Seven Mothers
Megaera -> Jakaleel the Witch, or Cacodemon (in case of the ogres).
Grandmother Sky -> Hearth Mother
The Hunter is Found-child.
Votank is the founder deity, and son of Hearth Mother and Found-child.
Zutchko -> Brother Dog
Elf and dwarf deities are obvious...
Zar is the hero Balazar, who came into the land now named after him
around 1070 ST, married the hunting nymph Rigtaina, the closest
Votankiland had to a Land Goddess, and had three children from her.
He built two citadels for his sons, Trilus and Dykene, and then
departed with his Sun-worshipping warriors to join the True Golden
Horde. Needless to say they didn't return (alife).
The Orc war translates as the Lunar counter-invasion from Tarsh.
Some remnants of Griffin Mountain can be seen in Trollpak - mention of
Joh Mith and the Votanki in the Dagori Inkarth paragraphs. Joh Mith
uses Wyrm's High Pass across the Rockwoods, northwest of the Throne.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: 10027...@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Esrolia
Message-ID: <941014191602_10...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Oct 94 19:16:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6609
_____________
Mike Dickison's Esrolian panorama included:
> Teams of slaves digging foundations are a common sight along the street.
Now, this brought something to mind, which ties in with some other recent
thoughts. If Esrolia is an Earth-based society, it mythically pre-dates the
Solar- and Storm-based cultures we are more familiar with. Mythology can
mirror social reality, as we all know: "Freedom" is a peculiarly Orlanthi
concept (in some ways), while "Dominance" or "Mastery" (or whatever) is
peculiarly Solar. I think Esrolia comes *before* these two. The Esrolians
you see working like slaves are *not* slaves. They are normal Esrolian men
doing what is necessary. They don't think anyone is in authority over them
and making them do this work (Solar / slavery); they don't think they have
any practical alternative or choice in choosing whether or not to do it
(Storm / freedom). They just do it, for the common, communal good of all.
This selfless attitude is one of the things that makes Esrolia such a fine
place to live for everyone and no-one -- at the same time!
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: ddu...@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Griffin Island
Message-ID: <1994101421...@radiomail.net>
Date: 14 Oct 94 21:25:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6610
Hmm, I seem to be overly literal about those inverted pyramids in the
Kingdom of Ignorance -- I kept thinking you pick up the pyramid and balance
it on its point.
Paul Pofandt wondered about Griffin Island vs Griffin Mountain.
I ran a campaign set on Griffin Island -- which I placed on QuestWorld, so
it was non-Gloranthan.
I ended up deciding that the orcs were really what are on the mainland
called trolls, but had become corrupted by worshipping bad deities and
practicing sorcery. Not that my players met any trolls from the mainland.
But that doesn't really help you much, since you want to put it back in
Glorantha. Well, I'd certainly use all the clans and shamanic bits. You
probably can figure out which citadel is which in Balazar (Trilus, Elkoi,
Dykene).
Griffin Mountain is a huge work, full of great NPCs and encounters. Griffin
Island's strength is its handouts. Unfortunately, none of them would be
usable without serious modification -- you've got to decide what to do with
the orcs. At least many of the NPCs and encounters are still in GI.
---------------------
From: 10011...@compuserve.com (David Hall)
Subject: Oh woe is me!
Message-ID: <941014230954_100...@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Oct 94 23:09:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6611
Joerg writes re Fazzur the Great:
>The reports on her strangulation are news to me. How did Onjur the Poet,
>teh son of Fazzur who later led the Fazzurite faction in Tarsh against
>the Phargentites, react to this disposal of his mother?
>> Don't you just love happy endings?
>How happy, and how long is "ever after" in a land that will be torn
>by civil and external warfare only a couple of years in the future?
>Fazzur is mentioned as the commander of the Tarshite force in 1625,
Damn you! Why spoil it all! Fazzur and the Queen had a chance of happiness,
and now you've smashed those hopes to pieces on the rock of your despicable
logic. I weep for them.
It is now obvious to me. Why do we hear nothing of Fazzur after 1625, and
only hear of his son Onjur after 1631? It is clear now that Fazzur was by
1631 dead, along with his second wife, both brutally murdered at the hands
of his son, Onjur, in vengeance for the death of Onjur's foul and shrewish
mother. The swine! The cad!
Joerg! Why couldn't you let it rest? Why did you have to delve deeper? Why?
Why? Why? Now my hero is dead and I don't know if I can go on...
You murdered him Joerg!! Your merciless logic cut his heart out - and with
it my hopes and dreams of a pure and happy Glorantha.
I'm sorry, I have to go now...
David
---------------------
From: ha...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Richard Ohlson)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 14 Oct 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <NqX8Tc...@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>
Date: 14 Oct 94 19:47:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6612
Subject: Divine Intervention?
I ran into a problem a while ago which involved four PC's and bunch of
Lunar soldiers. The soldiers beat them (out numbering and outclassing
them) The PC's got a little lucky and it came down to one PC and two
soldeirs. Everytime a PC went down, he called for a pathetic DI-"Heal
US". The goons tried it too, but nobody had any success. That is, until
the PC took down the second to last guy. He made the standard DI, and
now there were twelve nasty soldiers up and one unlukcy PC. He finally
went the "parry/dodge, make different DI everturn" route, and finally was
successful with a big fat "Get us the hell out of here."
Because of this fiasco (where I had to fudge two specials to normals and
one normal to a miss to make the climax of the scenario a success and not
a blood party), I decided to rethink how I ran DI's.
First of all, I decided that one DI will only get one casting of a spell.
This means, only one heal body, one ressurect, or one teleport.
(Remember that teleport can be stacked so you have four spells going off
on one casting)
Anyhow, has anybody else had this problem? How have you taken care of
it?
Oh, and just becuase I felt bad for the PC's, I decided that the one
exception would be Challana Arroy. I figure that CA probably has a
special divine spell called "Heal ALL" that takes like 10 points of power
and nobody ever gets it, but She can heal up to ten of the CA healers
friends with one DI.
BTW, speaking of Death- what IS the proper way to send a dead Orlanthi
off to the after life? Stick quarters on his eye-lids and bury him? Put
him on a big boat and set it on fire?
I sorta like the burying idea- you might be able to get him ressurected
later on then...
---------------------
From: but...@io.com (Captain Button)
Subject: Corflu, HQs, Headhunters, Bless Crops
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410142...@pentagon.io.com>
Date: 14 Oct 94 19:07:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6613
To show my comtempt for this new upstart god "Time",
I'll post some replies to some digests from last July.
(actually, I'm just lazy :-)
Someone said re: the origin of the name Corflu:
> The Corflu business was an invention of Greg Costikyan, a
> somewhat mad New York City gamer who had mad Corflu
> cultists involved in making books/parchments. He has published
> some fantasy novels, and there was a fantasy board game
> (the name has slipped my mind) published by Avalon
> Hill in which Corflue appeared.
It was _Swords & Sorcery_ published by Simulations
Publications,Inc. (SPI) in 1978. Greg Costikyan is credited for
Game Design/Contributing Development.
S&S was a fantasy wargame with "role-playing" elements. It
was full of puns and silliness. East of Aardvark Wallow and
south of the "Hill of Avalon" lies the land of Ka-Chunk,
dominated by the Temple of the Corflu Cultists, founded by
the immortal Unamit Ahazredit.
In X-RQ-ID: 5008, Alex comments on Sandy's answer to my question
regarding HQing to IFWW <phew!>:
> I concur with Sandy's
> implicit disagreement with <oops, name deleted>'s suggestion that this is
> an "advanced" quest: I think that as a rule, any quest may be done in a
> "shallow" way, and so on progressively.
You can just call me oop. :-)
Does this mean I can get 6 friends and perform a nano-Lightbringer's
Quest, where we help a blond guy named Elmer break out
of the root cellar I locked him in? :-))
More recent stuff:
Orlanthi Headhunters:
I just noticed in framing story in _Cults of Terror_, after
Halgrim kills Bolthor:
"Bolthor's head-halves we kept atop the main gate at the
capital, so that all might see that Bolthor would never return."
This was in a Lunar dominated Orlanthi Kingdom.
Re: Bless Crops
I am inclined to consider the game rules to be how BC works
for quick and dirty circumstances.
Normally, I would think there would either:
A) Be a big ceremony where the local priestesses, supported by most
all local initiates and laymembers combine their BC spells into one
furshluginer Bless Crops spell that effects the whole village and/or
the steads of everyone attending. Perhaps everyone brings a soil
sample to the temple, which you then sprinkle back onto your fields?
B) A procession where the above all go round to each farm
and hold a ceremony there. If you want your farm on the list
better show up and support the group at the other farms too.
C) Why don't the farmers cast their own BC spells? If you're
a proper farmer, wouldn't you (or someone in your family) be an
initiate of a suitable cult? So cast it as a one-use spell.
Yes, that's a waste of good POW if you plan to be a Rune level
someday, but most people don't. As long as you manage to get
at least 1 successful POW gain roll per year, you're breaking
even. You wanna eat this Dark Season or not?
--
- Captain Button -- but...@io.com
RQ Daily Discussion List
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
X-RQ-ID: index
6614: joe = (Joerg Baumgartner)
- Re: Oh woe is me! or: Shakespeare strikes again
6615: KFC01067 = (Takehiro OHYA)
- Healers' Vow and Arroin
6616: vladt = (Kevin Rose)
- Vessels, Etc.
---------------------
From: j...@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Oh woe is me! or: Shakespeare strikes again
Message-ID: <H.ea.mYg...@sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: 15 Oct 94 16:42:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6614
David laments the final acts of the great Tarshite soap opera we're
composing. Strange, I tought a denizen of the land of Shakespeare
would appreciate a story told to its end...
I asked:
> >How happy, and how long is "ever after" in a land that will be torn
> >by civil and external warfare only a couple of years in the future?
> >Fazzur is mentioned as the commander of the Tarshite force in 1625,
and gentle David quoth:
> Damn you! Why spoil it all! Fazzur and the Queen had a chance of happiness,
> and now you've smashed those hopes to pieces on the rock of your despicable
> logic. I weep for them.
Will you accept my condolations?
> It is now obvious to me. Why do we hear nothing of Fazzur after 1625, and
> only hear of his son Onjur after 1631? It is clear now that Fazzur was by
> 1631 dead, along with his second wife, both brutally murdered at the hands
> of his son, Onjur, in vengeance for the death of Onjur's foul and shrewish
> mother. The swine! The cad!
I can see the scene before me: It is Freezeday of Sea Season, as Fazzur
returns frorm the morning service to the Seven Mothers in Furthest. While
he usually spends his time at home, dividing his time between the loving
attentions of his wife, his books, his estates, and his students, pressing
clan affairs had brought him to Furthest once again. Stepping out of the
temple, already half-way down, suddenly a group of his senior students step
forth from the shadows between the columns, the hoods of their cloaks
hiding their counenances, led by Onjur. However, Fazzur recognizes them
already from their motions, after all he had trained every single one
of them in the arts of battle and strategy. Neither Fazzur nor his
students wear armour, although Fazzur is belted with his steel
scimitar. Without suspicion Fazzur greets the 15 young men, as suddenly he
feels the cold chill of an upcoming ambush. And lo, as he turns around,
some armed and armoured members of the Phargantites leave the temple gate.
Suspecting them to be the source of his alarm, Fazzur turns round and
reaches for his sword, as the daggers of Onjur and his friends hit him in
his back. His last breath is "You, my son?"
The Phargantites rush forward, to lay their hands on the assassins,
when they realize that the man staggering in a pool of his own blood
is Fazzur, their chief rival and opponent. Nonchalantly they walk by,
assuming that Imperial agents are hidden beneath those hoods.
Onjur leads his companions to the parental stead. They sweep through
the villas, until they find Queen Hendira in her bath, her ever
present sacred snake pressed firmly to her bosom. Startled and bereft
of his revenge, Onjur lets the silken garrotte drop when he perceives
the fading image of a crimson scimitar rising through the ceiling -
despite their haste, Fazzur's allied spirit had delivered the message
of the general's death just before Onjur could fulfil the other half
of his vow to take the life of his mother's murderers.
What happened before?
When Onjur's hapless mother had been disposed off, Fazzur had taken
the opportunity when an assassin sent by the Phargantite had penetrated
his estates' outer defences. The assassin had been slain by Horatio
Hostilius below the window to the chambers of Fazzur's wife, a mere
week after Fazzur's return from Esrolia. Queen Hendira still resided as
a guest of state with the local earth temple. Before anyone learned of
the incident, Fazzur activated a magical trinket he had exchanged with
his beloved, and informed her of this strike of fortune. Via this piece
of jewelry the decided to strangle Fazzur's wife, and blame the deed on
the slain assassin.
The scheme was carried out, and several years Onjur pursued the
Phargantite conspirators who had sent the asassin to fulfil the vow
he had given on his mother's funeral. However, when he and his companions
finally had removed the last of the conspirators from this life, his
vow (and geas) still weren't fulfilled. Puzzled, Onjur fell back to
divination, and found out the bitter truth that to fulfil his vow, he
had to slay his own father!
Thus the scene on the 15th day of Sea Season resulted, after Onjur
had the trinket which connected the lovers stolen from his father.
> Joerg! Why couldn't you let it rest? Why did you have to delve deeper? Why?
> Why? Why? Now my hero is dead and I don't know if I can go on...
> You murdered him Joerg!! Your merciless logic cut his heart out - and with
> it my hopes and dreams of a pure and happy Glorantha.
> I'm sorry, I have to go now...
This is a true tragedy, with all elements of greatness and loss you can
wish for in a world gone mad. If this tragedy moved you, the poet can
retire, we can find solace in the cautionary tale told by the chorus after
a grief-stricken Onjur, finally released from his vow of vengeance,
lightens the bier or his father.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner j...@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: KFC0...@niftyserve.or.jp (Takehiro OHYA)
Subject: Healers' Vow and Arroin
Message-ID: <1994101517...@inetnif.niftyserve.or.jp>
Date: 16 Oct 94 11:49:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6615
Hello to all,
Richard Ohlson: X-RQ-ID: 6575
>A friend mentioned a CA subcult representing her son. In this subcult men
>are allowed to become High Healers. (The only way for men to become priest
s)
>What do people know about him?
Wait a minute, there isn't any difficulty for men to become
priests (High Healers) of Chalana Arroy, judging from the cult
write-up in "River of Cradles." "Female members are usually
called White Women" says that there are other members who aren't
called "White Women," I suppose.
>Challana Arroys are sworn not hurt anything that is not chaotic. I have
>allways wondered how they are supposed to tell. Why isn't there a spell
>to detect Chaos?
I think they've never sworn such an oath. Quoting from RoC, "An
initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature
or needlessly cause pain to any living thing." Thus, CA
initiates mustn't kill or harm (phisically) Broos, Ogres,
Scorpion Man, Jack O'Bear, and so on.
Chaotic creatures are exceptions of only there oath of
protecting her captives. When a broo attacks a CA initiates who
travels alone, she probably uses her Sleep spell to him. And if
he is defeated by the spell, she must run away as fast as she
can, because she cannot harm this thug.
Luckily enough, there comes a Storm Bull cultists. She can tell
him where the broo sleeps and that he isn't under her protection
(This is the exception!), and even ask him to kill, but she can
never attack the broo at all even if he is a obvious chaotic
creature.
(If CA cultists can harm broos, there is no room for the famous
Wild Healer of the Rockwoods.)
So, the most useful skill for CA cultists is not Sense Chaos, I
think, but Beast Training by which they can tell intelligent
creatures from animals.... OK, please don't flame to me on this
point. It's Joke.
-----
Takehiro OHYA KFC0...@niftyserve.or.jp
College of Arts and Sciences The University of TOKYO
---------------------
From: vl...@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Vessels, Etc.
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9410151...@psycfrnd.interaccess.com>
Date: 15 Oct 94 13:26:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 6616
Paul:
I'll have to look at your concepts again, they seemed to make sense more
than before.
Soda has (as of last month) the playtest list through Febuary. I have
June-August.
Kevin