Privateers and Gentlemen

[kyonshi]

I came across this game recently (it's on Amazon as a POD title) and I
am fascinated with it, even though it is severely limited in what it
actually can and wants to do. The game is a bit murky on release dates,
but the version I have seems to be a rerelease of a 1983 2nd ed. boxed set.
Like really old DnD this is a wargame (in this case a naval wargame
called Heart of Oak) combined with a roleplaying system.
The RGP section gives you the choice between playing a British naval
officer... and an American naval officer. Also technically privateers of
any nation, and one could easily hack the navy of another nation in
there, but that's not what this was intended for.
The rules are supposed to emulate a time period between 1750 and 1820
and only concern themselves with whatever would be connected to the
career of a naval officer. There is barely anything about what one could
do outside of port (one option is to buy a borough and become a Lord),
and even the encounters in port are geared towards whatever a Navy
officer would be interested in (potential marriage candidates for a good
match for example). There is lots about the organisation of the navies
of the time, including a lot of technical information. What is missing
is everything around it though.
I find games like this fascinating because they give the rules, but they
do not even given a hint of an idea how this game is supposed to be
played. There are no proper scenarios in there, there is no hint as to
what you are supposed to do, you are just supposed to... start playing a
naval officer. I guess reading Hornblower before helps (or the novels by
the game's author).
There are a few scenarios available on drivethrurpg, but in the rulebook
itself there's nothing.
I assume this game was intended to spread via word of mouth, or after
playing on conventions, but I am not really sure this ever could have
taken off. Considering I only ever came across this when I found a
reissue on Amazon, I don't think this ever was really successful.

Anyone have experience with this?

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

kyonshi <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tm5273$29am0$1...@dont-email.me:

I've never played it (and never would, these days, because I don't
have the attention span to figure out rules that complicated any
more), but it's typical of the rather crunchy games Fantasy Games
Unlimited (who are, amazingly, still around) published in the late
70s/early 80s. I do own a copy (in PDF), but haven't done more than
skim the rules in decades. I have a vague memory of there being
rules for determing how (not if) drunk your ship's doctor is if
your character is injured (and having read a few contemporary
sources on what shipboard life was like at the time, I know where
that comes from).

It was never a particularly popular game, though Heart of Oak
(which is a miinatures game, not a boardgame) had its fans back in
the day.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[kyonshi]

On 29/11/2022 16:45, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

> I've never played it (and never would, these days, because I don't
> have the attention span to figure out rules that complicated any
> more), but it's typical of the rather crunchy games Fantasy Games
> Unlimited (who are, amazingly, still around) published in the late
> 70s/early 80s. I do own a copy (in PDF), but haven't done more than
> skim the rules in decades. I have a vague memory of there being
> rules for determing how (not if) drunk your ship's doctor is if
> your character is injured (and having read a few contemporary
> sources on what shipboard life was like at the time, I know where
> that comes from).
>
> It was never a particularly popular game, though Heart of Oak
> (which is a miinatures game, not a boardgame) had its fans back in
> the day.
>

It's my understanding that they started out with Heart of Oak and then
branched it out into a roleplaying game, similar to how Chainmail and
Dungeons and Dragons interrelated (disregarding the fact that people
mistook DnD for a standalone game).
I actually do wonder if I could get a game up, but I don't know if it's
really worth it. As fascinated I am with the game, it's neither my
favorite genre of fiction, nor does the system seem really that great.
But it would be an interesting little detour, and I haven't played much
lately.

There are actually a lot of of small, but tiny companies that somehow
survive even nowadays. I think they all got a boost with the interest in
older games, and the possibility of just publishing pdfs on drivethru,
or just throwing them as POD titles on Amazon and Lulu. I assume this is
what happened with this title as well.

The game itself is definitely one of those where someone was really more
interested in the genre/history of the topic than they were about making
a usable game. I've encountered a lot of those over the years. One of my
favorite examples is the Macross II RPG, where only three sourcebooks in
they finally tried to solve the question what you even were supposed to
do outside of having giant robot fights. Clearly the whole core book and
first supplement were written only because someone really wanted to stat
out those robots from the OVA series (which never took off and was being
ignored by everyone else immediately).
This game seems like the work of someone who really got into the subject
matter and wanted to show it somewhere. Well, the author also did
publish a few novels set in "the Age of Fighting Sail".

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

kyonshi <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tm8b8a$2j89a$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 29/11/2022 16:45, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>> I've never played it (and never would, these days, because I
>> don't have the attention span to figure out rules that
>> complicated any more), but it's typical of the rather crunchy
>> games Fantasy Games Unlimited (who are, amazingly, still
>> around) published in the late 70s/early 80s. I do own a copy
>> (in PDF), but haven't done more than skim the rules in decades.
>> I have a vague memory of there being rules for determing how
>> (not if) drunk your ship's doctor is if your character is
>> injured (and having read a few contemporary sources on what
>> shipboard life was like at the time, I know where that comes
>> from).
>>
>> It was never a particularly popular game, though Heart of Oak
>> (which is a miinatures game, not a boardgame) had its fans back
>> in the day.
>>
>
> It's my understanding that they started out with Heart of Oak
> and then branched it out into a roleplaying game, similar to how
> Chainmail and Dungeons and Dragons interrelated (disregarding
> the fact that people mistook DnD for a standalone game).
> I actually do wonder if I could get a game up, but I don't know
> if it's really worth it. As fascinated I am with the game, it's
> neither my favorite genre of fiction, nor does the system seem
> really that great. But it would be an interesting little detour,
> and I haven't played much lately.

Heart of Oak was first, and it is a standalone miniatures game.
Privateers & Gentlemen was the RPG supplement to it.

>
> There are actually a lot of of small, but tiny companies that
> somehow survive even nowadays. I think they all got a boost with
> the interest in older games, and the possibility of just
> publishing pdfs on drivethru, or just throwing them as POD
> titles on Amazon and Lulu. I assume this is what happened with
> this title as well.

When I looked at the Amazon link, I was surprised that it was offerd
by the author, rather than FGU. I suspect that if you asked both
Williams and Scot Bizar at FGU who owns the rights to the game, you'd
get different answers. But Bizar used fairly standard *book*
publishing contracts, rather than the most extensive contracts other
gaming companies used, and the termination clause in it apparently
gets very fuzzy. When he unambiguously lost the rights to Chivalry &
Sorcery (Wilf Backus was an attorney, and knew *exactly* what he was
doing), Bizard rushed to get everything he could up for sale
*somehoe* to preserve his rights. Even though he had effectively been
out of business for years, with old stock gathering dust in his
garage. But we're in a renaissance of "old school revival" games now,
so FGU might well be a viable business again.

>
> The game itself is definitely one of those where someone was
> really more interested in the genre/history of the topic than
> they were about making a usable game. I've encountered a lot of
> those over the years. One of my favorite examples is the Macross
> II RPG, where only three sourcebooks in they finally tried to
> solve the question what you even were supposed to do outside of
> having giant robot fights. Clearly the whole core book and first
> supplement were written only because someone really wanted to
> stat out those robots from the OVA series (which never took off
> and was being ignored by everyone else immediately).
> This game seems like the work of someone who really got into the
> subject matter and wanted to show it somewhere. Well, the author
> also did publish a few novels set in "the Age of Fighting Sail".
>

It's pretty clear Williams is a history buff of the era, and
everything, games and books, is part of that.

[kyonshi]

On 30/11/2022 21:25, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

>
> When I looked at the Amazon link, I was surprised that it was offerd
> by the author, rather than FGU. I suspect that if you asked both
> Williams and Scot Bizar at FGU who owns the rights to the game, you'd
> get different answers. But Bizar used fairly standard *book*
> publishing contracts, rather than the most extensive contracts other
> gaming companies used, and the termination clause in it apparently
> gets very fuzzy. When he unambiguously lost the rights to Chivalry &
> Sorcery (Wilf Backus was an attorney, and knew *exactly* what he was
> doing), Bizard rushed to get everything he could up for sale
> *somehoe* to preserve his rights. Even though he had effectively been
> out of business for years, with old stock gathering dust in his
> garage. But we're in a renaissance of "old school revival" games now,
> so FGU might well be a viable business again.

Oh, but then the question actually is if FGU even can publish this stuff
electronically. The whole ebook publishing rights discussion gets
incredibly murky at times. It might be that one of them does indeed not
have the rights to publish it, but I bet nothing is ever going to come
of that, because even with the old school revival, Privateers and
Gentlemen is not a title that will sell more than a handful of copies.
Not enough for either side to afford the legal costs, unless they are
really, really mean it.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

kyonshi <gmk...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tm9uh8$2pb3h$2...@dont-email.me:

> On 30/11/2022 21:25, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>>
>> When I looked at the Amazon link, I was surprised that it was
>> offerd by the author, rather than FGU. I suspect that if you
>> asked both Williams and Scot Bizar at FGU who owns the rights
>> to the game, you'd get different answers. But Bizar used fairly
>> standard *book* publishing contracts, rather than the most
>> extensive contracts other gaming companies used, and the
>> termination clause in it apparently gets very fuzzy. When he
>> unambiguously lost the rights to Chivalry & Sorcery (Wilf
>> Backus was an attorney, and knew *exactly* what he was doing),
>> Bizard rushed to get everything he could up for sale *somehoe*
>> to preserve his rights. Even though he had effectively been
>> out of business for years, with old stock gathering dust in his
>> garage. But we're in a renaissance of "old school revival"
>> games now, so FGU might well be a viable business again.
>
> Oh, but then the question actually is if FGU even can publish
> this stuff electronically.

Whether they legall can or not, they are doing so. All the P&G
stuff on DriveThru is from FGU, not Williams.

> The whole ebook publishing rights
> discussion gets incredibly murky at times.

Especially when dealt with by amateurs on all sides.

> It might be that one
> of them does indeed not have the rights to publish it, but I bet
> nothing is ever going to come of that, because even with the old
> school revival, Privateers and Gentlemen is not a title that
> will sell more than a handful of copies. Not enough for either
> side to afford the legal costs, unless they are really, really
> mean it.
>

The only opinion really matters is the jury's, and getting it would
cost both sides $100k in legal fees, so yeah, it's unlikely to ever
be resolved.

But I suspect that if Scott Bizar really cared, he could make
enough of a stink for Amazon to take down the listing. I also
suspect that the number of sales he gets on the stuff is too low to
even be worth filing a DMCA takedown.