GURPS High Pain Threshold and Stun questions
Steve Taylor
The High Pain Threshold advantage is described thus:
"... If you are hurt in combat, you are not stunned and do not have the
normal DX penalty on your next turn (exception: a head blow or critical
hit will still stun you)."
Now, if I understand Basic Set pages 126 and 127, there are two
seperate effects, Shock and Stun. Shock is the one which gives
you a DX and IQ skill penalty. I understand this. Stun is the one
that freezes you up and gives you a -4 on defense rolls. I understand
this. What I don't understand is which one the High Pain Threshold
advantage avoids. It says "not stunned" but maybe it means not shocked?
If it's both, then the manual should simply say "Not stunned and not
shocked" which would make everything clear.
And, just to clarify, when you are Berserk, you avoid all Stun AND Shock
effects, right?
Thanks for the help.
--
-- Steve Taylor (st...@wahoo.com or st...@park.uvsc.edu)
--
-- The Feynman Problem Solving Algorithm:
-- 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the answer
Brian E. Gross
>Gentlebeings,
>
>The High Pain Threshold advantage is described thus:
>
>"... If you are hurt in combat, you are not stunned and do not have the
>normal DX penalty on your next turn (exception: a head blow or critical
>hit will still stun you)."
>
>Now, if I understand Basic Set pages 126 and 127, there are two
>seperate effects, Shock and Stun. Shock is the one which gives
>you a DX and IQ skill penalty. I understand this. Stun is the one
>that freezes you up and gives you a -4 on defense rolls. I understand
>this. What I don't understand is which one the High Pain Threshold
>advantage avoids. It says "not stunned" but maybe it means not shocked?
>If it's both, then the manual should simply say "Not stunned and not
>shocked" which would make everything clear.
>
>And, just to clarify, when you are Berserk, you avoid all Stun AND Shock
>effects, right?
>
>Thanks for the help.
>--
>-- Steve Taylor (st...@wahoo.com or st...@park.uvsc.edu)
>--
the combat round you were hit and the -4 defensive penalty in
following rounds (except for Head or Critical hits). The Shock
effects you mention can come from being "Surprized", failing a
Fright Check, and/or from the accumulated hits of damage you have
taken. HPT does not protect from these Shock effects.
Berserk protects from both Stun and Shock, but carries its own
IQ penalty, plus the physical effects you suffer coming out of it.
These answers are based on memory, as I don't have a copy of the
rules with me. But right or wrong, they are what we have been
using. IMO, I have found HPT to be _extremely_ powerful and I
may need to make some adjustments to it to keep characters with
it from becoming outright Terminators. Have others noticed this?
Brian Gross
David P. Summers
> My understanding is that HPT negates Stun - the freeze-up during
> the combat round you were hit and the -4 defensive penalty in
> following rounds (except for Head or Critical hits). The Shock
> effects you mention can come from being "Surprized", failing a
> Fright Check, and/or from the accumulated hits of damage you have
> taken. HPT does not protect from these Shock effects.
I don't know about the stun, but I'm pretty sure that HPT removes
the penalty for damage taken.
>IMO, I have found HPT to be _extremely_ powerful and I
> may need to make some adjustments to it to keep characters with
> it from becoming outright Terminators. Have others noticed this?
It hasn't been my experience.
________________________
(Disclaimer: If NASA had any position on any of this do you think they would have ME give it?)
David Summers - DPSu...@Ames.ARC.NASA.Gov
Great Cthulhu
>In article <355cd6...@afshub.boulder.ibm.com>, impo...@vnet.ibm.com
>(Brian E. Gross) wrote:
>>IMO, I have found HPT to be _extremely_ powerful and I
>> may need to make some adjustments to it to keep characters with
>> it from becoming outright Terminators. Have others noticed this?
>It hasn't been my experience.
Agreed. They do better while they're still up, but the difference isn't that
big (since a couple good hits is still enough to take them down, it only
matters on at most a couple swings each combat). It DOES make for a big
surprise if someone has All-Out Attacked and done big damage, though....
--
-Doug Gibson d...@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu
"What's this 'lecherous'? Does that mean chaotic?" - overheard at a game con
GS d-(+) H s+:+ !g p? au a- w+ v C++ UH++(++++) P--- L- 3- E N++ K W--- M+ V--
po- Y+ t+ 5- j R++ G+('') tv b+++ !D B--- e++>++++ u+ h---(*) f r+++ n- y+++
Dr Kromm
> My understanding is that HPT negates Stun - the freeze-up during
> the combat round you were hit and the -4 defensive penalty in
> following rounds (except for Head or Critical hits).
High Pain Threshold negates:
(i) the physical "Stun" (-4 to defenses & can do nothing but defend
until a HT roll is made) that results from a severe blow, which is defined as a
blow that does more than HT/2 in a single shot; and,
(ii) the physical "Shock" (-1 DX per hit point of damage) suffered on
the turn immediately after you are wounded.
> The Shock
> effects you mention can come from being "Surprized", failing a
> Fright Check
No. You are thinking of Mental Stun, which gives a -4 to defenses and
allows you to do nothing but defend until a IQ roll is made. High Pain
Threshold does not affect this at all, and these effects are *not* called
"Shock" in GURPS -- they are called "Mental Stun". Combat Reflexes gives
bonuses against Mental Stun, however.
> and/or from the accumulated hits of damage you have
> taken. HPT does not protect from these Shock effects
HPT *does* protect against the effects of physical damage. It prevents
Stun and negates all Shock penalties.
> Berserk protects from both Stun and Shock, but carries its own
> IQ penalty, plus the physical effects you suffer coming out of it.
Berserk confers no IQ penalty. What it does is force you to do All-Out
Attacks and other aggressive actions (charge a foe who is out of range, Grapple
& Choke, etc.) every turn. A smart mage with IQ 20 and Berserk can still use
Deathtouch and Flame Jet at full skill when he goes Berserk! Berserk also
confers the HPT advantage temporarily, as well as a bonus to HT rolls for
unconsciousness or death, and the right to ignore penalties to Move and Dodge
due to injury. Once you snap out, however, you might well die.
> IMO, I have found HPT to be _extremely_ powerful and I
> may need to make some adjustments to it to keep characters with
> it from becoming outright Terminators. Have others noticed this?
Not really. There are far more powerful advantages in the system, and
there are loads of attacks that HPT will not help against (magic spells and
psionic attacks which cause stunning and disorientation, for example). As well,
this advantage is very useful in a low-tech fantasy game for helping non-mage
fighter-type PCs stay on par with powerful mage PCs in combat situations.
All-in-all, I would tag a dozen other advantages as "extremely powerful" before
this one.
-Kromm
--
Dr Manfred Dieter Kromm | E-mail: | 1245 Rue Amherst
(a.k.a. Sean M. Punch) | pu...@ravel.physics.mcgill.ca | Montreal, Quebec
o---------/o\-----------o kr...@io.com | Canada H2L 3K9
/___\ | cx...@musica.mcgill.ca |
GURPS Illuminatus | pu...@hep.physics.mcgill.ca | Work: (514) 398-6506
and Q&A Meister | | Home: (514) 521-4667
Steve Taylor
> My understanding is that HPT negates Stun - the freeze-up during
> the combat round you were hit and the -4 defensive penalty in
> following rounds (except for Head or Critical hits). The Shock
> effects you mention can come from being "Surprized", failing a
> Fright Check, and/or from the accumulated hits of damage you have
> taken. HPT does not protect from these Shock effects.
I don't think this is exactly right. My Basic edition 3 says surprise
and fright check failure both lead to Stun, not Shock. Are you
reversing the terminology? If so, I'm more confused than before.
> Berserk protects from both Stun and Shock, but carries its own
> IQ penalty, plus the physical effects you suffer coming out of it.
Really? What IQ penalty is this? And the physical effects you
mention are just the results of the damage you took during the
combat, right?
Thanks for the reply.
--
-- Steve Taylor (st...@wahoo.com or st...@park.uvsc.edu)
--
Brian E. Gross
Thanks for clearing up my errors (I _must_ stop making rules replies w/o the book handy!):
1. I was confusing/interpreting "Shock" (as Steve used it) with Mental Stun.
2. I had forgotten that HPT _does_ negate the DX- for damage on the next round.
3. I think I got the IQ minus for Berserk from some other game. I dredged it up in reference to
GURPS due to the requirement of taking not-very-well-considered agressive actions while under
the influence.
4. The comment about the power of HPT actually comes from characters with the combination of HPT
and a high HT. Unless I am missing something (and Lord knows I might be!), such a character
will not Stun (except from Head or Critical Hits) and will most likely keep making HT rolls --
requiring other characters/NPCs to tear him to shreds (to get him to -5XHT) or go for crippling
leg wounds.
Anyways, thanks for the info.
Brian
Brian E. Gross
>From article <355cd6...@afshub.boulder.ibm.com>, by impo...@vnet.ibm.com (Brian E. Gross):
>
>> My understanding is that HPT negates Stun - the freeze-up during
>> the combat round you were hit and the -4 defensive penalty in
>> following rounds (except for Head or Critical hits). The Shock
>> effects you mention can come from being "Surprized", failing a
>> Fright Check, and/or from the accumulated hits of damage you have
>> taken. HPT does not protect from these Shock effects.
>
>I don't think this is exactly right. My Basic edition 3 says surprise
>and fright check failure both lead to Stun, not Shock. Are you
>reversing the terminology? If so, I'm more confused than before.
Yup, I was mixing Shock with Mental Stun (which is distinct from normal (physical) Stun).
See Dr. Kromm's posts for the real skinny on this.
>> Berserk protects from both Stun and Shock, but carries its own
>> IQ penalty, plus the physical effects you suffer coming out of it.
>
>Really? What IQ penalty is this? And the physical effects you
>mention are just the results of the damage you took during the
>combat, right?
Actually it is not a true IQ penalty, just a compulsion to perform certain agressive
and possibly ill-considered actions while under the influence. Again, see Dr. Kromm's
posts. Sorry for getting things mixed up.
Brian
Dr Kromm
> The High Pain Threshold advantage is described thus:
> "... If you are hurt in combat, you are not stunned and do not have the
> normal DX penalty on your next turn ..."
> Now, if I understand Basic Set pages 126 and 127, there are two
> seperate effects, Shock
Which is what "the normal DX penalty on your next turn" means in the
description of the High Pain Threshold advantage quoted above.
>and Stun.
Which is the stunning referred to in the description above.
> What I don't understand is which one the High Pain Threshold
> advantage avoids.
Both. Basically, if someone has the HPT advantage, they ignore *all* of
the *momentary* shock-related and pain-related effects of injury except those
which result from head blows and critical hits. The do not ignore the lasting
effects of injury such as reduced Move and Dodge or temporary crippling.
> If it's both, then the manual should simply say "Not stunned and not
> shocked" which would make everything clear.
I think that it is already pretty clear. The description says quite
explicitly that you are not Stunned. Since the only DX penalty that you are
likely to receive as the result of an injury is that due to Shock, I think that
the line about avoiding "the normal DX penalty on your next turn" is a fairly
unambiguous reference to Shock.
> And, just to clarify, when you are Berserk, you avoid all Stun AND Shock
> effects, right?
When you are Berserk, you have the High Pain Threshold advantage and a
bonus to HT for avoiding unconsciousness and death. You also get to ignore the
effects of injury on Move and Dodge.
M.P. Soulier
Personally, I think that High Pain Threshold is far too powerful
for GURPS. The idea that you get no detrimental effects from being
wounded at all means that you can't keep your opponents off balance. This
is something that I always liked about the GURPS combat system, and it's
very realistic. In my games, we usually just cut the penalties in half
for HRT, not get rid of them altogether.
What does everyone think about that?
--Mike Soulier <u900...@muss.cis.mcmaster.ca>
"I'm too busy worrying about what I've done to think
about what I'm doing."
Brian E. Gross
>
> Personally, I think that High Pain Threshold is far too powerful
>for GURPS. The idea that you get no detrimental effects from being
>wounded at all means that you can't keep your opponents off balance. This
>is something that I always liked about the GURPS combat system, and it's
>very realistic. In my games, we usually just cut the penalties in half
>for HRT, not get rid of them altogether.
>
> What does everyone think about that?
>
I tend to agree. Especially when combined with a high HT and using the basic combat system.
Once you get to advanced combat, you can do things like head shots and crippling hits
to limbs. As with a lot of the GURPS ads and disads, I feel it is too much of a all-or-
nothing situation and should be more of a sliding scale (like Vision, Alertness, etc.).
I can comprehend a character with a greater resistance to pain and shock than the average
person, but not one that is *totally* immune (at least not for only 15 points).
Brian
Markus Borst
Maybe, but just halving the shock effect is to *less* for 15 points. Maybe
take a third or a fourth of it
Markus
--
Markus Borst
bo...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de |In the beginning the Universe was
bo...@bwl.bwl.th-darmstadt.de (temporary)|created. This has made a lot of
CompuServe 100034,2210 |people very angry and been
|widely regarded as a bad move.
Bill Seurer
|>
|> Personally, I think that High Pain Threshold is far too powerful
|> for GURPS. The idea that you get no detrimental effects from being
|> wounded at all means that you can't keep your opponents off balance. This
|> is something that I always liked about the GURPS combat system, and it's
|> very realistic. In my games, we usually just cut the penalties in half
|> for HRT, not get rid of them altogether.
|>
|> What does everyone think about that?
I've played and reffed GURPS siince it came out. High Pain Threshold is
NOT too powerful. Your change reduces its worth to maybe a 5 point
advantage.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
Dr Kromm
bo...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Markus Borst) writes:
>> person, but not one that is *totally* immune (at least not for only 15
>> points).
> Maybe, but just halving the shock effect is to *less* for 15 points. Maybe
> take a third or a fourth of it
Again, see p.20 of the Basic Set. AFAIK, High Pain threshold costs *10*
points and not 15.
Dr Kromm
E. Gross) writes:
Re: HPT being "too powerful"
> Once you get to advanced combat, you can do things like head shots and
> crippling hits to limbs.
Yes, and why would you worry about things like Stun and Shock (and
hence High Pain Threshold) *unless* you plan to use all of the other detailed
rules that GURPS presents for combat, like hit location and crippling wounds?
The thing is, most of the GURPS combat-related advantages and disadvantages -
including HPT - are "priced"/"balanced" under the assumption that the advanced
combat system, with its emphasis on tactical movement, facing, position, hit
location, etcetera, is being used. If you limit yourself to using a small
subset of the GURPS combat system, then for consistency's sake you should also
limit yourself to using the small subset of *applicable* combat-related
abilties as well.
>person, but not one that is *totally* immune (at least not for only 15
>points)
Last time I looked (see Basic Set, p.20), HPT cost 10 points, not 15.
Even for 10 points, though, I do not feel that the power is too cheap. It has
no effect at all on stunning or unconsciousness due to head or brain blows, on
crippling or blinding wounds, on decapitating neck blows, on HT rolls to avoid
unconsciousness when brought to 0 HT, on the HT roll to avoid unconsciousness
due to a crushing blow to the head or vitals, on going to half Move and Dodge
at less than 3 HT, on death checks and so on. This means that it is basically
only useful against massive trauma delivered to the torso. At least in my
games, this is not a very common form of wound, as the PCs and NPCs both go for
"real-life" incapacitating shots to the leg, head and so on when they can.
Under the basic combat system, where every blow lands on the torso by
"default" and where most of the advanced effects of injury are "optional", HPT
might *seem* powerful - so just do not use it there. IMHO, using HPT under the
basic combat system is sort of like using the advanced martial arts manoeuvers
from _GURPS Martial Arts_ under the basic combat system. One *can* do this, but
it looks really stupid, and probably is not a good idea.
-Kromm