Peter Adkison on TSR - READ!!!
Adam!!!
RANDOM THOUGHTS ON THE WOTC ACQUISITION OF TSR
By Peter D. Adkison, Janitor, CEO, and Acting TSR Brand Manager
ma...@wizards.com
We are into the fourth week of the new marriage of TSR and WotC and
I figured you might be interested in my thoughts on what's happening
out here in Lake Geneva.
Basically things are going very well. The TSR folk are great and
we're making a lot of new friendships. I've even had the chance
of playing some AD&D while I'm out here; I'm playing my 5th level
female bard named Hope in Ted Stark's campaign with Cindi Rice,
Stan Brown, Lisa Stevens, Julia Martin, and Cindi's and Julia's
husbands. So far no one in the party has tried to backstab me so
I guess that's a good sign!
This week we finalized the schedule for the rest of 1997 and we're
cutting purchase orders for new products and some backlist products.
Everyone's excited to have the presses rolling again! In fact,
when the first shipment comes to the warehouse we thought of running
out to the trucks with cookies for the drivers, a film crew, etc.,
"So, Mr. Truckdriver (or Ms. Truckdriver), how does it feel to be
making the first big delivery of TSR products? How was the drive in?
Did you have trouble with crowd control along the way?" Yeah, okay,
so we're getting a little giddy out here but that pretty much
describes the mood right now.
Obviously it will take a few weeks to get products printed, assembled,
and distributed. The first backlist and new products should start
showing up in stores in early August. I think the first new product
will be the next issue of Dragon Magazine.
BUSINESS STUFF
It is no secret that TSR has had severe financial difficulties in
recent years. TSR has operated at a loss for almost three years,
and even when it was profitable it was only barely so. If your image
of TSR is that of a large, wealthy corporation swimming in money,
you're in for a surprise. TSR operates on a shoestring budget with
employees who barely make a living and for the most part are working
on out of date computers, with only nominal funds for marketing and
promotions.
Our goal, of course, is to turn the business around and make it a
profitable enterprise. While we obviously have a duty to our
shareholders to make a profit, we also have a similar duty to our
customers and to the adventure gaming industry. A financially
healthy TSR will have the strength to support gaming through a
regular release of quality products, to support organized play
programs like the RPGA, to attract new people into gaming through
advertising and promotions, and to take risks in launching new
lines that may or may not turn out to be long term profitable
ventures.
On the other hand, an unhealthy TSR causes damage to the entire
industry, not just WotC shareholders. During the six months that
TSR did not release any products sales went down dramatically not
just for TSR, but for everyone who participates in the TSR
distribution - distributors, retailers, mail order companies, and
so on. This caused retailers to have less cash flow for investments
in other game products, possibly hurting other manufacturers as well.
So now that we hopefully agree that it's to everyone's best interest
to turn TSR around to become a profitable business, we'd like to
share with you our plan for doing so. We want you to understand
the full picture because we think you deserve to know. You love
this company as much as we do, so you are probably very interested
in understanding this.
Making a business more profitable is fairly simple on paper. You
simply need to find ways of increasing sales without increasing
expenses by the same amount, or find ways of decreasing expenses
without decreasing sales by the amount. We are considering the
following initiatives to do this:
* Reduce printing costs. We plan to work very hard at reducing
printing costs by introducing a competitive bidding process instead
of having an exclusive arrangement with a single printer. By doing
this we can always be assured of getting the best price possible on
a given product. This should decrease expenses with no decrease in
sales.
* Returns and inventory management. Many have speculated correctly
that TSR suffered numerous financial setbacks from sales returns in
the book trade. This is true, and these returns cost the company a
lot of money, particular if the product returned can't be resold at
a later date. We hope to manage TSR's inventory and sales volumes
more precisely to reduce the costs associated with sales returns
and overstocking of inventory.
* Review product formats. TSR has published products in a variety
of formats, including paperback books, hardback books, boxed sets,
and so on. Some of these products are more profitable than others,
and some are barely profitable at all. We will be examining this
product mix to make sure that each format stands on its own and is
profitable in its own right. The company simply cannot afford to
have some products that do not carry their weight. This move may
decrease sales because we make some format changes customers don't
like as much as the current format, but if we do it right it will
decrease expenses even more. For example, we sold a ton of
Encyclopedia Magicas but lost money on every copy sold because the
cost of goods was so high. That is why we changed formats for spell
compendiums. Yes, the customer gets less for the same money, but
that's because the previous ones were priced too low.
* Review product lines. What was said in the previous paragraph
about types of products can also be said about some of TSR's
product lines. We cannot have highly profitable lines like Forgotten
Realms and AD&D "carrying" poor performing lines. If a product line
is not performing we should reduce our investments in that line to
nominal levels and redirect that talent to supporting a line that
has more promise. In some cases perhaps a line is flailing but needs
more investment in it. We will be examining the TSR product lines on
a case by case basis, regularly, through customer surveys and reviews
of sales data, to try and determine where our best investment
opportunities are.
All that said, we do have a saying around here: "lines never
die, they simply go into hiatus for a while." We will never completely
give up on a line. Rather, we hope to do what Disney does with old
properties: bring them back every once in a while for a new treatment
and revival.
* Price increases. We are considering some moderate price increases
on a number of products. We understand that this will not be a
popular development, but the fact is that most products do not sell
in high enough volume to warrant a low price. The roleplaying industry
is small, yielding only a few thousand sales of products that often
take 1-2 years to develop. Because of this the profitability of the
entire industry is dangerously low. The price of roleplaying products
simply has to go up if the adventure gaming industry is to remain
viable.
* Smaller staff. With TSR operating as a product group within WotC
there are a number of jobs that can be eliminated. We don't need two
legal departments, two accounting departments, and so on. This will
lower expenses related to administrative functions mostly, and help
somewhat in sales, marketing, and international functions as well.
The need for game designers, developers, editors, and graphic designers
will remain constant since this type of work is not subject to the
same types of economies of scale.
In some areas we plan on spending more money, not less. We plan on
spending more on market research and marketing. With increased
expenditures in market research we hope to make more accurate
decisions on what types of products to develop, how much to produce,
and how to promote it. With increased expenditures in marketing we
plan to invest primarily in organized play activities like the RPGA,
conventions, and other support for grass roots play. With marketing
and market research these additional expenditures will hopefully pay
for themselves with increased sales.
TSR PRODUCT LINES
Of course everyone wants to know what product lines we plan to support
aggressively versus ones we plan to keep low key for possible revivals
downstream. Overall we will base these decisions on consumer
interest--which is typically expressed in sales. Here's a summary of
where we stand on the key lines.
AD&D Core, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance: These are great product
lines with strong sales. We will certainly continue to invest in
these.
Planescape, Ravenloft: These are great product lines but with modest
sales. We believe they can be managed profitably and we plan to do so.
Birthright, Spellfire, Dragon Dice: These lines are built on intriguing
concepts, but sales have been weak. We have some ideas that we will be
trying during the second half of this year to see what we can do to
build up these lines. If those ideas don't work we will let the lines
slip into hiatus for a while and consider re-launches at a later date.
Greyhawk: There seems to be a lot of pent up demand for bringing
Greyhawk back. We are giving this serious consideration.
Alternity: This is an amazing product with great potential. We are
delaying the launch til 1998 so that it can be better supported through
marketing at the time of launch. As a gamer you may not value
marketing, but as a publisher I can tell you that the days of launching
a new game and hoping it grows on its own are long gone. If this game
is going to have the chance it deserves it's going to have to come out
with a well planned launch program.
Dragon, Dungeon, Polyhedron: These are excellent publications that,
even though they don't really make money, are important products for
supporting TSR customers and products. We will continue all these
magazines.
Novels: The book publishing department at TSR is an excellent,
efficient operation that produces some outstanding fiction. We
will continue to invest here, and the novel lines will generally
overlap with the game lines, with occasional exceptions.
Dominia Campaign Set: We of course are seriously considering the
possibility of publishing an AD&D campaign setting for Dominia, the
universe Magic: The Gathering is set in.
Other lines: There are some other TSR properties that are not
currently supported but are mentioned frequently in e-mails and such
by gamers; Dark Sun is an excellent example. We will be doing some
market research to test awareness and interest, and based on those
studies and our own thoughts about where we think the exciting
prospects are we will consider re-launch options.
GROWTH OPPORTUNITIES
In addition to making TSR a profitable business once again we hope to
grow the TSR business as well. We see the following activities as
avenues for directing our growth efforts:
* International markets. International sales represent only 10-20%
of TSR's worldwide sales. International should be in the 50-60% range.
* Invest in new lines. We must continuously make investments in the
development of new games and campaign settings. The creation of new
properties is the heart and soul of a gaming company and is critical
for long term profitability. Our next big push will be the Alternity
science fiction roleplaying game.
* Electronic media. We must develop a comprehensive strategy for
dealing with the Internet and PC platforms. TSR has tried doing its
own software development, and has done an extensive amount of
licensing. We need to explore all options and develop a vision.
THE TSR STAFF
I consider it one of the greatest privileges of my life to have
become associated with the employees of TSR. These are people
who have inspired me personally through their integrity and
commitment to TSR. In spite of the hardships they've seen in
the first six months of the year, very, very few of them left the
company. They stayed on, steadily tending their watch through
the most turbulent times. And after the acquisition, those who
could not come to Seattle could have run off immediately looking
for another job, but instead, most of them stayed on right up
through the relocation to help with Gencon and insuring a smooth
transition. In my years of running a gaming company I have seen
many heroic efforts where people put duty above all personal
considerations, and this particular case ranks among the greatest
of those tales.
TARGET AUDIANCE
TSR made a strategic decision a number of years ago to target a
younger audience in its marketing decisions and product content.
We are reversing that course. We will market our games as serious
products for a mature audience. We do this not because we don't
want young people to buy our games, but because we believe that
the young people who buy these games are generally very mature
for their age and take gaming as seriously as adults. This doesn't
mean we're going to go off the deep end and turn the line into a
bunch of R rated products; it simply means that we will assume that
our audience is generally mature enough to handle serious topics and
perhaps the occasional demon or something. :-)
1997 RELEASE SCHEDULE
Here are the game releases planned for the rest of this year from TSR
(thought you might be curious). Listed on each is the month they
"ship;" you'll probably see them in the stores the month after.
AD&D, Games: Tale of the Comet (Jul), Sea Devils Monstrous Arcana (Jul),
Evil Tide Monstrous Arcana (Aug), Of Ships & The Sea (Sep), Wizard Spell
Compendium II (Sep), Night of the Shark Monstrous Arcana (Oct), and Sea
of Blood (Dec). Novels: Tale of the Comet Novel (Jul).
Birthright: King of Giantdowns (Jul), Book of Priestcraft (Oct),
Tribes/Heartless Wastes Sourcebook (Dec).
Forgotten Realms: Powers & Pantheons (Jul), Lands of Intrigue Campaign
Set (Aug), Castle Spulzeer (Sep), Four from Cormyr (Oct), Prayers from
the Faithful (Nov). Novels: Harpers #15 Finder's Bane (Jul), Shores of
Dusk (Aug), Passage to Dawn (Aug, reprint), Council of Blades, Nobles #5
(Sep), The Simbul's Gift, Nobles #6 (Oct), Elminster in Myth Drannor
(Nov), Realms of the Arcane (Nov), Tymora's Luck (Dec).
Planescape: Faces of Evil: Fiends (Aug), The Great Modron March (Sep),
Dead Gods (Oct), Planar Powers, The Blood War Trilogy #3 (Jul), Pages of
Pain (Dec).
Ravenloft: Domains of Dread (Jul), Forgotten Terror (Sep), Ghosts (Nov).
Novels: Lord of the Necropolis (Oct).
Dragonlance: Heroes of Defiance (Jul), Fate Cards Deck (Aug), Last Tower
Adventure (Oct), Heroes of Sorcery (Nov). Novels: Lord Soth (Jul), The
Day of the Tempest (Aug), Vinas Solamnus King (Aug), The Wayward Knights
(Sep), Fistandantilus Reborn (Oct), Tales of Uncle Trap-Springer (Nov),
Dragons of Chaos (Dec).
Dragon Dice: Manual (Aug), Kicker #6 (Sep), Kicker #7 (Dec). Note that
these releases are tentative.
Marvel Super Dice: Starter Set (Oct).
Spellfire: Dungeon! Booster #12 (Aug).
Periodicals: Dragon every month, Dungeon every other month, Polyhedron
every other month opposite Dungeon starting in October.
BUILDING BRIDGES
One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges
and mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some
of the people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had
conversations with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis,
Tracy Hickman, and so on. It is too early to tell where these
discussions will lead, but I'm cautiously optimistic that we will be
able to work with some of these people once again.
We're also doing some things to improve relations with the art community.
There is a storage area here with a bunch of original art, which we're
returning to the artists to did the paintings. We will also grant back
certain rights to artists, like the rights to do prints and retrospective
works.
Overall everyone has been friendly and excited about the new marriage
between TSR and WotC and are hopeful for the future. I for one
certainly plan to have a helluva lot of fun in the coming years!
stephenJ
Doctor Doom wrote:
>
> On the subject of the WoTC Buyout of TSR, and two of the
> comments within the original message, namely A> The possible RETURN of
> Greyhawk and B> the same of Gary Gygax, I must say:
>
> If either of these comes to pass, much less both, I will
> pledge my undying devotion to WoTC, and thier undying wisdom! You go,
> Peter A.!
>
Amen, Brother!
*******************
Was the order to slay given because of the Sign of the Goat found on the
altar of the ancient Roman crypt beneath the Cathedral, or whether the
Dark Man of the Haute Vienne Coven had spoken the Three Words?
Doctor Doom
On the subject of the WoTC Buyout of TSR, and two of the
comments within the original message, namely A> The possible RETURN of
Greyhawk and B> the same of Gary Gygax, I must say:
If either of these comes to pass, much less both, I will
pledge my undying devotion to WoTC, and thier undying wisdom! You go,
Peter A.!
Jeff
--
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definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is
unlawful to
send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By
Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a
violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to
recover
actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation.
Steve C.
A few comments on this excellent and informative e-mail...
Adam!!! <wild...@wizards.com> wrote in article
<wildcard-260...@w11-61.wizards.com>...
> Dominia Campaign Set: We of course are seriously considering the
> possibility of publishing an AD&D campaign setting for Dominia, the
> universe Magic: The Gathering is set in.
An excellent idea (that I'm surprised had not happened already).
I wonder, though, how well M:tG and AD&D will mix. Perhaps
this would be an excellent showcase for a revision of current
AD&D rules and that mythical "third edition"
> GROWTH OPPORTUNITIES
> * Electronic media. We must develop a comprehensive strategy for
> dealing with the Internet and PC platforms. TSR has tried doing its
> own software development, and has done an extensive amount of
> licensing. We need to explore all options and develop a vision.
A couple of thoughts here...all IMHO...
1. A pro Internet policy does not hurt a product's sales. I have a
number of commercial and home made programs for many of
the RPGs I play, and it has made me more not less interested
in purchasing products from a company.
For example, take a game like Rolemaster. Creating and
maintaining a character in that game requires some _major_
work. I've found several programs to keep track of all that
information. Did I just use them and not buy anything that
ICE put out? No, because it made playing the game easier,
I went out and bought _more_ material.
2. The future of gaming supplements is _not_ electronic
publishing. With all apologies to Terry Austin, I
want my gaming material in hard copy. This is coming
from someone who owns a laptop and has a high quality
laser printer to boot! An interesting alternative would be
to market electronic material along with the hard bound
books. Why not offer a bundle: the PH/DMG along with
the core rules CD?
> TARGET AUDIANCE
>
> TSR made a strategic decision a number of years ago to target a
> younger audience in its marketing decisions and product content.
> We are reversing that course. We will market our games as serious
> products for a mature audience. We do this not because we don't
> want young people to buy our games, but because we believe that
> the young people who buy these games are generally very mature
> for their age and take gaming as seriously as adults. This doesn't
> mean we're going to go off the deep end and turn the line into a
> bunch of R rated products; it simply means that we will assume that
> our audience is generally mature enough to handle serious topics and
> perhaps the occasional demon or something. :-)
This is *great*. For an example of what Peter is talking about,
take a look at The Primal Order. What I found most interesting
about it was the level of the writing: it was clearly written at a
college level and targeted at an adult audience. At the same
time it can be a very funny book too!
> BUILDING BRIDGES
>
> One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges
> and mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some
> of the people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had
> conversations with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis,
> Tracy Hickman, and so on. It is too early to tell where these
> discussions will lead, but I'm cautiously optimistic that we will be
> able to work with some of these people once again.
This is also a great idea. I know opinions about EGG and
other early TSR staff members varies considerably in
this NG, but giving some of these "old hands" a chance
to showcase their writing in individual projects _is_
interesting. Hmmn, what's the phrase that comes to
mind "only Nixon can go to China..." :)
Thank you Peter for this useful and informative letter.
I hope you will be able to continue these kinds of
posts!
Good Luck,
--Steve C.
"we now return to our regularly scheduled flaming"
Andrew Young
stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>Doctor Doom wrote:
>> On the subject of the WoTC Buyout of TSR, and two of the
>> comments within the original message, namely A> The possible RETURN of
>> Greyhawk and B> the same of Gary Gygax, I must say:
>> If either of these comes to pass, much less both, I will
>> pledge my undying devotion to WoTC, and thier undying wisdom! You go,
>> Peter A.!
Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
save money and embarassment.
Mavra, you listening? Put Jonathan Tweet onto a few AD&D projects; that's
about the only thing that would get me to spend my greenbacks on "TSR"
stuff.
Gygax. Heh.
Regards,
Andy
| Andy Young "A good thing not to be is a plant because someone |
| ayo...@pacifier.com might think you are a weed and pull you up by the |
| Vancouver, WA USA roots" - Ruth Krauss, _Open House for Butterflies_ |
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, ayo...@pacifier.com (Andrew Young) spoke
thusly:
>stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>Doctor Doom wrote:
>>> On the subject of the WoTC Buyout of TSR, and two of the
>>> comments within the original message, namely A> The possible RETURN of
>>> Greyhawk and B> the same of Gary Gygax, I must say:
>>> If either of these comes to pass, much less both, I will
>>> pledge my undying devotion to WoTC, and thier undying wisdom! You go,
>>> Peter A.!
>Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
>save money and embarassment.
Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>Mavra, you listening? Put Jonathan Tweet onto a few AD&D projects; that's
>about the only thing that would get me to spend my greenbacks on "TSR"
>stuff.
What a great idea! Then we could get another joke like Everway on the
market for nobody to buy!
>Gygax. Heh.
>Regards,
>Andy
>| Andy Young "A good thing not to be is a plant because someone |
>| ayo...@pacifier.com might think you are a weed and pull you up by the |
>| Vancouver, WA USA roots" - Ruth Krauss, _Open House for Butterflies_ |
Iron Czar
iron...@erienet.net
http://www.erienet.net/~ironczar
WorldWeaver
In article <5p6ns2$jjd$1...@news.pacifier.com>,
ayo...@pacifier.com (Andrew Young) wrote:
>
> stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> >Doctor Doom wrote:
> >> On the subject of the WoTC Buyout of TSR, and two of the
> >> comments within the original message, namely A> The possible RETURN of
> >> Greyhawk and B> the same of Gary Gygax, I must say:
> >> If either of these comes to pass, much less both, I will
> >> pledge my undying devotion to WoTC, and thier undying wisdom! You go,
> >> Peter A.!
>
> Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
> save money and embarassment.
>
I disagree emphatically. I'll grant that Gygax made some mistakes late
in his association with TSR (as TSR did toward him as well), but to say
that Gygax would have *nothing* worthy to contribute to AD&D makes no
sense. He was one of the game's creators, and a good writer. Much of
his Greyhawk material was seminal to RPGs, and notable to fans of fantasy
writing in general. The first edition DMG, though nearly 20 years old,
remains one of the best reference works for FRPG DMs today.
I for one would love to see politics put aside and Gygax's creativity
tapped once again. No one says WotC has to put him in charge of D&D, but
to cut him out of the loop completely like TSR did is a waste.
--
WorldWeaver
Dungeon Master of NexGaea
Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4571
email:b...@succeed.net
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jason M Hatter
Iron Czar (iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net) wrote:
: Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
: most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
: return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
people do...or would admit to it.
Jason
who's using his backup account because his normal account is missing about
a third of these posts...
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon Picture Archive http://www.delta.edu/~jmhatter/archive.html
ed
The noble iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) spake on the
day of Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:36:08 GMT:
>In rec.games.frp.misc, ayo...@pacifier.com (Andrew Young) spoke
>>Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
>>save money and embarassment.
>
>Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
>most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
>return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
WHAT !! Dave Arneson's coming back !!
When and where was this announced !!
ed
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For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
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BluSponge
> The noble iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) spake on the
> day of Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:36:08 GMT:
>
> >In rec.games.frp.misc, ayo...@pacifier.com (Andrew Young) spoke
>
> >>Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
> >>save money and embarassment.
> >
> >Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
> >most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> >return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>
>
> WHAT !! Dave Arneson's coming back !!
>
> When and where was this announced !!
>
> ed
Actually, YES! Pete dropped his name too. :)
Tom
--------------------------------------------------
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Rants and comentaries, RPGs - Deadlands and FUDGE,
and links of all sorts and sizes.
http://web2.airmail.net/sponge2
--------------------------------------------------
Ross W. Maker
ed wrote:
> WHAT !! Dave Arneson's coming back !!
>
> When and where was this announced !!
In the big, rambling thingy by PA on the TSR and WotC web pages.
Ross W. Maker
stephenJ
Jason M Hatter wrote:
>
> He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
> people do...or would admit to it.
Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
in.....
Bring Gygax back!!
stephenJ
Adkinson never said Gygax or Arneson was coming back. He said that he
had talked with them (as well as tracy hickman) as an initial attempt to
rebuild some old bridges, and to *possibly* lead to future
collaborations....
--
stephenJ
ed wrote:
>
> WHAT !! Dave Arneson's coming back !!
Nice try :), but of course he was referring to Gygax. Although Adkison
did say he had talked with Arneson as well. And of course i think it'd
be great if he did also....
Mr. Tines
###
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:36:08 GMT, in <5p79rj$5i9$1...@nerd.apk.net>
iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) wrote.....
> Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
> most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
Cyborg Commandos. Nuff said.
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/_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@windsong.demon.co.uk (or mr_tines at geocities.com)
### end pegwit v8 signed text
c5fdb0871bdec747644dd6d733a684c100f967f8cb22e0214c23f33d06e1
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verkuilen john v
"Ross W. Maker" <rma...@citilink.com> writes:
>stephenJ wrote:
>> Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
>> in.....
>>
>> Bring Gygax back!!
>Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
>RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
>EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
>Ross W. Maker
Yeah, and with Cyborg Commandos and Roleplaying Mastery (possibly _the_
most arrogant book I've seen) to his name in addition to DJ, Gygax _has_
given a relatively clear track record post-TSR. Come to think of it, he
hadn't done much in the last several years at TSR, either, mostly putting
his name on other people's work.
While I applaud Adkinson's attempts at bridge-building, it's really
hard to say what eventual benefit might be gained, maybe something
good, maybe trash. I suspect a lot of the Gygax-amour that is around is
nostalgia for many people's early years of gaming (I have it, too), but I
think I'll remain skeptical.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"Pete Shelley is right." --me
Ross W. Maker
JohnnyB
Adam!!! wrote:
>
> RANDOM THOUGHTS ON THE WOTC ACQUISITION OF TSR
>
>
>
> Our goal, of course, is to turn the business around and make it a
> profitable enterprise. While we obviously have a duty to our
> shareholders to make a profit, we also have a similar duty to our
> customers and to the adventure gaming industry.
I'm so glad that someone acknowledged this! I was pretty sick of
hearing people defend everything TSR did with the "they're in business
to make a profit" line. Games for gamers by gamers!!
>
> All that said, we do have a saying around here: "lines never
> die, they simply go into hiatus for a while." We will never completely
> give up on a line. Rather, we hope to do what Disney does with old
> properties: bring them back every once in a while for a new treatment
> and revival.
Yay! Like the common sense post earlier about releasing "campaign
annuals" for worlds not selling so hot. Keep them around with only a
minimal ammount of material instead of dropping the line entirely just
to re-release it 3 years down the road.
>
> In some areas we plan on spending more money, not less.
With increased expenditures in marketing we
> plan to invest primarily in organized play activities like the RPGA,
> conventions, and other support for grass roots play.
Yay!!
>
> TSR PRODUCT LINES
>
>
> AD&D Core, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance: These are great product
> lines with strong sales. We will certainly continue to invest in
> these.
Wise move.
>
> Planescape, Ravenloft: These are great product lines but with modest
> sales. We believe they can be managed profitably and we plan to do so.
With as many ardent supporters on this ng for PS, I think they can't
go wrong here.
>
> Birthright, Spellfire, Dragon Dice: These lines are built on intriguing
> concepts, but sales have been weak.
Hmm. Spellfire and Dragon dice are direct competetors for MtG. Any
surprise there? Still, no complaints from me on this one.
>
> Greyhawk: There seems to be a lot of pent up demand for bringing
> Greyhawk back. We are giving this serious consideration.
Oh-boy oh-boy oh-boy!!
>
> Alternity: This is an amazing product with great potential.
I'm not too sure on this one. I smell another "Amazing Engine" flop. I
have looked over the rules on their web page, and I haven't seen
anything new or ground breaking in either the mechanics nor the
settings. Now if they were serious about making it a universal sci-fi
game, lets see them get campaign books for major authors' settings
(Dune, Rama, etc etc).
>
> Dragon, Dungeon, Polyhedron:
Good deal!!
>
> Dominia Campaign Set:
ugh! bleach!
>
> Other lines: There are some other TSR properties that are not
> currently supported but are mentioned frequently in e-mails and such
> by gamers;
Gamma World and Star Frontiers may yet rise again!!
>
>
> TARGET AUDIANCE
>
> TSR made a strategic decision a number of years ago to target a
> younger audience in its marketing decisions and product content.
Big surprise there. Maybe now people will open their eyes and see what
some of the "old-timers" have been saying all along was true.
> We are reversing that course. We will market our games as serious
> products for a mature audience.
As it always should have been, IMHO of course. (Goodbye Munchkins)
> This doesn't mean we're going to go off the deep end and turn the > line into a bunch of R rated products; it simply means that we will > assume that our audience is generally mature enough to handle > serious topics and perhaps the occasional demon or something. :-)
ROTFLMAO!
>
> BUILDING BRIDGES
>
> One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges
> and mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some
> of the people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had
> conversations with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis,
> Tracy Hickman, and so on.
I just hope some of these folks actually do come around. It might be
interesting...
>
> Overall everyone has been friendly and excited about the new marriage
> between TSR and WotC and are hopeful for the future. I for one
> certainly plan to have a helluva lot of fun in the coming years!
Lets all hope for the best ( 'cause I think we might just get it)
JohnnyB
Jason M Hatter
stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
: in.....
Yeah. No one bought it. There are STILL copies of the thing in my local
hobby store's sales bin...and have been for a LONG time now. Regardless
of what people might claim, TSR's suit was NOT the only reason the game
flopped, and we all know that.
Jason
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, jmha...@alpha.delta.edu (Jason M Hatter) spoke
thusly:
>Iron Czar (iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net) wrote:
>: Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
>: most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
>: return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
>people do...or would admit to it.
*I* remember Dangerous Journeys. In fact, I've even *read* it. Hell,
I even *own* it. I guess that makes me some kind of dangerous
reactionary, eh?
Tom Cashman
> >Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
> >save money and embarassment.
>
> most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
Hmmm... somehow I don't think EGG made rpg's what they are today.
Otherwise, we'd all still be hunting kobolds, orcs and trolls living in
"apartment complex" caves.
> >Mavra, you listening? Put Jonathan Tweet onto a few AD&D projects;
that's
> >about the only thing that would get me to spend my greenbacks on "TSR"
> >stuff.
> What a great idea! Then we could get another joke like Everway on the
> market for nobody to buy!
As opposed to EGG jokes likes "Cyborg Commando" and "Dangerous Journeys?"
Tom Cashman
> I disagree emphatically. I'll grant that Gygax made some mistakes late
> in his association with TSR (as TSR did toward him as well), but to say
> that Gygax would have *nothing* worthy to contribute to AD&D makes no
> sense. He was one of the game's creators, and a good writer. Much of
> his Greyhawk material was seminal to RPGs, and notable to fans of fantasy
> writing in general. The first edition DMG, though nearly 20 years old,
> remains one of the best reference works for FRPG DMs today.
I look at it like this: the RPG world owes alot to early AD&D... but baby,
we've come a long way. Old AD&D was mostly poorly organized tables and
charts (how many pages for miscellaneous magic items?). The modules
consisted of graph-paper "apartment complex" caves, housing a veritable
Noah's ark of monsters just waited to be killed by adventurers. Now don't
get me wrong; I loved it too. But having played modern RPG's for many
years, I could never go back. And neither could the RPG world.
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <33B7E7...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Jason M Hatter wrote:
> >
> > He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
> > people do...or would admit to it.
>
>
> Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> in.....
It wasn't done in. It was sold off as a white elephant.
--
To respond via email, remove non-licit characters to change my site to "cornell.edu".
BluSponge
In article <5p961u$orn$1...@nerd.apk.net>,
iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) wrote:
> In rec.games.frp.misc, jmha...@alpha.delta.edu (Jason M Hatter) spoke
> thusly:
>
> >Iron Czar (iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net) wrote:
> >: Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
> >: most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> >: return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>
> >He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
> >people do...or would admit to it.
>
> *I* remember Dangerous Journeys. In fact, I've even *read* it. Hell,
> I even *own* it. I guess that makes me some kind of dangerous
> reactionary, eh?
>
> Iron Czar
Hey! So did I! What a coincidence! I'd be happy to see a revamped DJ on
the market. I'd probably even buy *another* set of rules - especially if
they got someone with a bit more tech writing expertise to put the final
draft together. I'd be just as happy to see Gary and Kuntz reunited to
work on a new Greyhawk line. In fact, I'd probably be happier with the
latter than the former, no matter how good DJ was.
BluSponge
In article <01bc859c$637d9c20$e8a192cf@tcashman>, "Tom Cashman"
<tcas...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >Oh god. EGG? Might as well flush AD&D down the toilet right now, and
> > >save money and embarassment.
> >
> > Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
> > most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> > return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>
> Hmmm... somehow I don't think EGG made rpg's what they are today.
> Otherwise, we'd all still be hunting kobolds, orcs and trolls living in
> "apartment complex" caves.
>
>
> > >Mavra, you listening? Put Jonathan Tweet onto a few AD&D projects;
> that's
> > >about the only thing that would get me to spend my greenbacks on "TSR"
> > >stuff.
>
> > What a great idea! Then we could get another joke like Everway on the
> > market for nobody to buy!
>
> As opposed to EGG jokes likes "Cyborg Commando" and "Dangerous Journeys?"
Didn't Jon Tweet write OtE, too? Hell, get both of them on board and give
them a game to design! Everyone is destined to write a goose egg (no pun
intended) once in awhile. It'd be interesting to see what Tweet (rules
minimalist) and Gygax (in depth rules) could concieve. :D
Fred Strauss
Ross W. Maker wrote:
>
> stephenJ wrote:
> > Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> > in.....
> >
>
> Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
> RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
> EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
>
> Ross W. Maker
Maybe because people were still satisfied with his greatest masterpiece,
AD&D, and not interested in a new game??? Why play DJ when you already
own 1st edition AD&D?
IMO it would take hundreds of 'DJ' mistakes to offset the biggest RPG in
history. Its like criticizing George Washington because he didn't do
anything after he was done being the first president.
Give him another try at selling what he knows best, AD&D, and then see
if his stuff is still not selling worth beans!
- Fred
--
####################################################################
Fredric Strauss # "What kind of started out as a love
TDS Computing Services # affair, quite frankly now is feeling
Madison, WI # more like date rape."
fred.s...@teldta.com # Ntnl Wildlife Foundation on Bill Clinton
####################################################################
Fred Strauss
Jason M Hatter wrote:
>
> stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> : in.....
>
> hobby store's sales bin...and have been for a LONG time now. Regardless
> of what people might claim, TSR's suit was NOT the only reason the game
> flopped, and we all know that.
>
Comparing of course to all of TSR's non-AD&D stuff which is just great
and sells like hot cakes! Never a dog there huh? Now let me get back
to my Buck Rogers please.
Neale Davidson
Fred Strauss wrote in article <33B83D...@teldta.com>...
>Jason M Hatter wrote:
>>
>> stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>> : Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
>> : in.....
>>
>> Yeah. No one bought it. There are STILL copies of the thing in my
local
>> hobby store's sales bin...and have been for a LONG time now.
Regardless
>> of what people might claim, TSR's suit was NOT the only reason the game
>> flopped, and we all know that.
>>
>
>Comparing of course to all of TSR's non-AD&D stuff which is just great
>and sells like hot cakes! Never a dog there huh? Now let me get back
>to my Buck Rogers please.
>
Normally, I avoid threads like this like the plague, but I feel I must make
a comment here. The point of his post about DJ was not that TSR hadn't put
out bad material, but that DJ was not prematurely killed by TSR. Saying
that TSR might have ALSO put out bad material does not mean that DJ was any
less bad. Just letting you know that the "we" in your original post
doesn't include anyone I know. I'm not claiming to know thousands of
people, but you should be cautious making sweeping generalizations like
that.
Geez, I can feel the nasty plague viruses getting to me already. Gotta go
disinfect myself now for posting on one of these threads...
Shayna
stephenJ
Ross W. Maker wrote:
>
> stephenJ wrote:
> > Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> > in.....
> >
>
> Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
> RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
> EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
>
Perhaps you'll explain why TSR agreed to buy up all of the existing DJ
inventory as part of the settlement. Guess it's because they had such an
airtight case....
stephenJ
Mr. Tines wrote:
>
> ###
>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:36:08 GMT, in <5p79rj$5i9$1...@nerd.apk.net>
> iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) wrote.....
>
> > most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> > return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
>
>
Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
stephenJ
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
> In article <33B7E7...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Jason M Hatter wrote:
> > >
> > > people do...or would admit to it.
> >
> >
> > in.....
>
>
Uh no. It was removed from the market when TSR bought the rights to it.
Also, TSR refused to let GDW advertise the game in Dragon when it was
around...
Neale Davidson
>Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
No on both counts. You should check your sources better. Gygax
has lost every suit ever put against him by outsiders about the true
ownership of AD&D. All Gygax did was cull rules from various sources
and wrap it into AD&D. From there, he did make a few original bits for
AD&D, but not alone.
He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
original source.
(And no, my personal experience with Gyggax has been very poor.
I've played under him, and was put off with his more-than-chauvanistic
attitude towards the women nearby. He cheated constantly on die rolls,
and invented rules to save creatures when the players were doing well.
In every sense, I got the impression that he was nothing more than
a well-known graognard wargamer at his worst. Not impressive to
say the least.)
Neale
Neale Davidson
>> Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
>> RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
>> EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
>>
>
>Perhaps you'll explain why TSR agreed to buy up all of the existing DJ
>inventory as part of the settlement. Guess it's because they had such an
>airtight case....
BWAHAHAHA!
Ok, seriously. TSR did not buy any stock of DJ, not one piece. You see,
TSR already owned it. Oh wonderful god of mentality worked on DJ while
he was working for TSR. That means, guess what, he had no legal claims
over the property. Gygax was breaking the law, plain and simple. TSR got
the remaining stock, noted how poorly it did in sales (very very low), and
dumped it.
Neale
Neale Davidson
>Uh no. It was removed from the market when TSR bought the rights to it.
>Also, TSR refused to let GDW advertise the game in Dragon when it was
>around...
TSR refused to allow advertisements becuase it was stolen property.
That would be like you allowing a thief to place an ad for your stolen
car in your newspaper.
Neale
Bryan J. Maloney
Y'know, I remember when ol' EGG was around. I also remember how we used
to take so much time to rag on the stuff he spouted in his columns about
how we all weren't playing proper AD&D.
Then there were the munchkin king classes of Cavalier and Barbarian...
Phil Rhodes
Boys, boys. Take this thread where it belongs: to email. Or, if you
want to argue about which system is best, take it to rgf.advocacy.
Either way, this has nothing to do with AD&D. Zip. Nada.
--
-Phil (Phillip...@baylor.edu)
The Greyhawk/Greytalk FAQ can be found at:
http://members.aol.com/SavantSage/greytalk/faq.htm
or http://www.torontoguide.com/greyfaq.nsf
Anthony Ragan
spo...@airmail.net (BluSponge) screamed into the Void:
>Didn't Jon Tweet write OtE, too? Hell, get both of them on board and give
>them a game to design! Everyone is destined to write a goose egg (no pun
>intended) once in awhile. It'd be interesting to see what Tweet (rules
>minimalist) and Gygax (in depth rules) could concieve. :D
Feh. Gygax wrote nothing but goose eggs, other than the original AD&D,
and that was borderline. And he wasn't into in-depth rules, he was
into hastily designed, ill thought-out,
overly-detailed-in-the-wrong-places rules.
*****
--Anthony Ragan
Snotling in Chief, Staadtholder van Marienburg
iris...@mindspring.com (primary) & Iris...@aol.com (secondary)
The Warhammer FRP FAQ is at:
ftp://ftp.pvv.unit.no/pub/warhammer/FAQ3.2
Anthony Ragan
iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) screamed into the
Void:
>*I* remember Dangerous Journeys. In fact, I've even *read* it. Hell,
>I even *own* it. I guess that makes me some kind of dangerous
>reactionary, eh?
No, but I do have some swampland in Florida for you...
stephenJ
Neale Davidson wrote:
>
> Ok, seriously. TSR did not buy any stock of DJ, not one piece. You see,
> TSR already owned it. Oh wonderful god of mentality worked on DJ while
> he was working for TSR. That means, guess what, he had no legal claims
> over the property. Gygax was breaking the law, plain and simple. TSR got
> the remaining stock, noted how poorly it did in sales (very very low), and
> dumped it.
>
No, they bought it from GDW....
BluSponge
In article <5p9p53$2...@winter.erols.com>, "Neale Davidson"
<nea...@erols.com> wrote:
> >> Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
> >> RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
> >> EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
> >>
> >
> >Perhaps you'll explain why TSR agreed to buy up all of the existing DJ
> >inventory as part of the settlement. Guess it's because they had such an
> >airtight case....
>
> BWAHAHAHA!
>
> Ok, seriously. TSR did not buy any stock of DJ, not one piece. You see,
> TSR already owned it. Oh wonderful god of mentality worked on DJ while
> he was working for TSR. That means, guess what, he had no legal claims
> over the property. Gygax was breaking the law, plain and simple. TSR got
> the remaining stock, noted how poorly it did in sales (very very low), and
> dumped it.
>
> Neale
Um. No. That's part of what TSR claimed *after* things were in full
swing. Their initial claim was that since Gygax worked on creating
(re:writing/ developing) DJ while he was under contractural agreement not
to *produce* another fantasy game, he had infringed on the contract.
As for writing DJ while at TSR, I'm sure that Dave Newton (the co-author
of the Mythus game) would *love* to say a few words about that.
Ahhh. If only Unhallowed had been released first. The story might have
had a different ending.
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, iris...@DELETE.SPAMBLOCK.mindspring.com
(Anthony Ragan) spoke thusly:
>Feh. Gygax wrote nothing but goose eggs, other than the original AD&D,
>and that was borderline. And he wasn't into in-depth rules, he was
>into hastily designed, ill thought-out,
>overly-detailed-in-the-wrong-places rules.
Christ, I never thought I'd be posting something like this, in defense
of D&D...
D&D was the *first* commercial rpg. Don't you think the designers
ought to be cut a little slack in terms of how their game system looks
*now*, after two decades?
In retrospect, D&D had (and has) plenty of problems, both in terms of
mechanics and in terms of the play style that it encouraged. It's
very easy for us to say that now, after 20-odd years of advances in
the state of the art.
And, regardless of what people who haven't read DJ, much less actually
*played* a game of it may think, the rules *are* well-thought out.
What really hurt the game was, I think, the moderately poor layout and
presentation, a lack of editing, and the fact that Gygax's stature as
an industry icon was a good deal less than the producers of the game
thought it was.
DJ (while it has its problems, like every game) has some things going
for it. It's too bad so many people are too occupied by some sort of
disdain for Gygax himself to see that.
stephenJ
Neale Davidson wrote:
>
> >Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
>
> No on both counts.
Yes on both counts. What sources do you have? My original copies of DD
say "by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" on them, and my original ADD books
say "by Gary Gygax" on them....
Are you just trying to troll here or something...?
stephenJ
Neale Davidson wrote:
>
> TSR refused to allow advertisements becuase it was stolen property.
> That would be like you allowing a thief to place an ad for your stolen
> car in your newspaper.
>
> Neale
Uh Neale, do you know of any legal authority that ever declared it to be
stolen property?? Or do you just beleive every claim TSR makes?
--
Iron Czar
>stephenJ (sja...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
>: in.....
>Yeah. No one bought it. There are STILL copies of the thing in my local
>hobby store's sales bin...and have been for a LONG time now. Regardless
>of what people might claim, TSR's suit was NOT the only reason the game
>flopped, and we all know that.
You're right--it wasn't. The perception among DJ fans, however, when
the game was done in was that the game had a small core audience,
which was growing steadily, if slowly. The lawsuit (and the
'solution' which came at the end) dealt DJ a killing blow from which
it couldn't recover.
In my 3 years of gamemastering DJ, I introduced a number of people to
the game, virtually all of whom had very negative things to say about
it. Almost without exception, these people hadn't played, or even
tried seriously to read the rules. *Without* exception, everyone who
I introduced the game to found that they *liked* it and thought the
game actually played quite smoothly.
While I, as the GM, would certainly like to take credit for this, I
think it had more to do with the game system than some people would
like to think.
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, "Neale Davidson" <nea...@erols.com> spoke
thusly:
> >Uh no. It was removed from the market when TSR bought the rights to it.
>>Also, TSR refused to let GDW advertise the game in Dragon when it was
>>around...
>TSR refused to allow advertisements becuase it was stolen property.
>That would be like you allowing a thief to place an ad for your stolen
>car in your newspaper.
In what way, praytell, was DJ 'stolen'?
>Neale
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:21:10 +0000, JohnnyB
<joh...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu> uttered:
>I'm so glad that someone acknowledged this! I was pretty sick of
>hearing people defend everything TSR did with the "they're in business
>to make a profit" line. Games for gamers by gamers!!
That ideal didn't save Mayfair, though.
>Hmm. Spellfire and Dragon dice are direct competetors for MtG. Any
>surprise there? Still, no complaints from me on this one.
Spellfire is a competitor in the sense that said Spellfire buyer would
have bought Maghic instead. Personally, I bought a 1st ed. Spellfire
starter set back when they came out, and found out it sucked
balance-wise, which directly would mean big bucks win.
Dragon Dice could perhaps be seen as a competitor to the newly
acquired Five Ring Publishing's Star Trek: First Contact CDG. :-)
- Tor Iver
--
Tor I. Wilhelmsen to...@online.no
"This thorn in my side is from the tree I planted"
- Metallica: Bleeding Me
Roger Christie
stephenJ wrote:
>
> Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> >
> > In article <33B7E7...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jason M Hatter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > He's been back in the industry. Remember Dangerous Journeys? Very few
> > > > people do...or would admit to it.
> > >
> > >
> > > in.....
> >
> >
>
> Also, TSR refused to let GDW advertise the game in Dragon when it was
> around...
>
It was a steaming pile that TSR mercifully put out of its misery.
I paid $9 a volume and I was still ripped off.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Ross W. Maker wrote:
> >
> > stephenJ wrote:
> > > Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> > > in.....
> > >
> > > Bring Gygax back!!
> >
> > Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
> > RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
> > EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
> >
>
> Perhaps you'll explain why TSR agreed to buy up all of the existing DJ
> inventory as part of the settlement. Guess it's because they had such an
> airtight case....
Perhaps you'll explain why GDW was crowing over having unloaded the white
elephant onto TSR.
E. Filson
stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Neale Davidson wrote:
>>
>> >Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
>>
>> No on both counts.
>Yes on both counts. What sources do you have? My original copies of DD
>say "by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" on them, and my original ADD books
>say "by Gary Gygax" on them....
>Are you just trying to troll here or something...?
Speaking of trolls... you snipped his reasoning. For gods' sake get some
netiquette. (Of course, I hit 'follow-up' instead of 'reply' so maybe I
shouldn't talk :-) )
Why can't you respond to the reasoning instead of pulling yellow
journalism tactics?
dek
E. Filson
"Neale Davidson" <nea...@erols.com> writes:
>He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
>proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
>original source.
This is my concern about bringing him back. Aside from his obvious
chauvanisms, references to which I have snipped, he had a hang up about
what was offical and what wasn't. It seemed to me that his "creator
complex" would utterly get in the way of him creating good product for
AD&D... "PO doesn't count because I, creator of the game, never declared
it official. Same goes for 2nd edition and all 1st edition supplements
created after I left."
If this attitude returns, I'll find other products to buy.
dek
Mike Wilson
E. Filson wrote in article ...
Well, from what I understand (and I have to be honest I do not have them)
he wrote most of the PO stuff (or items really simular to those rules) in
the Dangerous Journies(sp ???) game. If that is the case I don't think he
would have a problem with it ... However even if that is not the case I
think that EGG's attitude toward ADnD is not as suggested or has changed.
I'm in a email list that he frequents and he seems to be quite open to most
anything that makes game playing enjoyable...
Ross W. Maker
stephenJ wrote:
> Perhaps you'll explain why TSR agreed to buy up all of the existing DJ
> inventory as part of the settlement. Guess it's because they had such an
> airtight case....
My understanding is that they bought the existing stock (at cost) from
GDW to settle GDW's counter-suit against them. GDW did not contest
TSR's claims vis-a-vis EGG's non-compete, but they did claim that TSR
should have notified them much sooner (e.g., when the game was
announced). On the non-compete TSR DID have an airtight case. On the
timeliness of notification, GDW was in a pretty good position.
Ross W. Maker
stephenJ
E. Filson wrote:
>
> "Neale Davidson" <nea...@erols.com> writes:
>
> >He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
> >proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
> >original source.
>
> This is my concern about bringing him back. Aside from his obvious
> chauvanisms, references to which I have snipped, he had a hang up about
> what was offical and what wasn't. It seemed to me that his "creator
> complex" would utterly get in the way of him creating good product for
> AD&D... "PO doesn't count because I, creator of the game, never declared
> it official. Same goes for 2nd edition and all 1st edition supplements
> created after I left."
>
> If this attitude returns, I'll find other products to buy.
>
I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
arbiter of any game....
BluSponge
In article <efilson....@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
efi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (E. Filson) wrote:
> "Neale Davidson" <nea...@erols.com> writes:
>
> >He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
> >proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
> >original source.
>
> This is my concern about bringing him back. Aside from his obvious
> chauvanisms, references to which I have snipped, he had a hang up about
> what was offical and what wasn't. It seemed to me that his "creator
> complex" would utterly get in the way of him creating good product for
> AD&D... "PO doesn't count because I, creator of the game, never declared
> it official. Same goes for 2nd edition and all 1st edition supplements
> created after I left."
>
> If this attitude returns, I'll find other products to buy.
>
> dek
And then, of course, there were his mentions in the DJ rulebooks that the
GM was the final arbiture (sp?) as to what was "official" in his/her
game. Hmmm. This guy just can't seem to make up his mind. (sarcasm
intended)
John R. Troy
One thing all should consider...
It is HIGHLY unlikely that Gary Gygax would be given Carte Blanche
control over AD&D again. It has now become simply too much of a
product for one person. I wouldn't recommend that happen, doubt it
would, and wonder why people consider everything in extremes (He's
Back, He'll Kill D&D!)
Simply put, there are certain things that he can do best. I don't
think he should work on Core AD&D, so much as I think he would be best
suited to producing the Greyhawk world--after all, who would know it
better? Plus, having him write one or two sourcebooks on various
stuff would only help the game, no?
==========================
John R. Troy
john...@tiac.net
stephenJ
E. Filson wrote:
>
>
> Speaking of trolls... you snipped his reasoning.
Ok. The trolling comment was unfair. But what "reasoning" is there to
respond to. He just declared that Gygax wasn't the creator of games that
have his name on them. And that *courts* evaluated in order to determine
credit an ownership of. So what's he talking about???
Peter White
stephenJ wrote:
>
> Neale Davidson wrote:
> >
> > >Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
> >
> > No on both counts.
>
> Yes on both counts. What sources do you have? My original copies of DD
> say "by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson" on them, and my original ADD
> books say "by Gary Gygax" on them....
If you bothered to quote the rest of Neale's paragraph, his statement
makes sense and your response does not. Neale writes:
No on both counts. You should check your sources better. Gygax
has lost every suit ever put against him by outsiders about the true
ownership of AD&D. All Gygax did was cull rules from various sources
and wrap it into AD&D. From there, he did make a few original bits for
AD&D, but not alone.
Neale clearly is addressing a broader view of "invented" than the narrow
issue of who can legally put their name of the cover of a particular
book. Neale contines:
He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to
the original source.
I believe that a substantial amount of what was to become AD&D first
apppeared in Dragon magazines; so, this is a well-aimed attack against
how much credit Gygax _morally_ deserves. I cannot speak of the
validity of his claims, but this is where you should challenge him.
I did chat with someone to remain nameless who was one of the first
hundred TSR employees and made the extremely carefully worded statement:
"Gary Gygax never screwed me over on purpose." Reading between the
lines, I conclude that (1) Gygax did screw many people over, and (2)
sometimes he screwed people over on purpose.
Personally, I think it would be interesting if Gygax produced some new
Greyhawk material, but I do really wonder how well it would hold up by
today's standards.
--Peter
p-w...@accesscom.com
Ross W. Maker
stephenJ wrote:
> Ok. The trolling comment was unfair. But what "reasoning" is there to
> respond to. He just declared that Gygax wasn't the creator of games that
> have his name on them. And that *courts* evaluated in order to determine
> credit an ownership of. So what's he talking about???
Maybe the fact that having your name on and having legal ownership of
something don't necessarily equate to having created it. Case in
point. Flint Dille (Lorraine Williams grandfather) owned and had his
name on Buck Rogers. It is a notorious fact that he did not create, in
any way, that property. He was the publisher who gained control of it.
Ross W. Maker
Doctor Doom
I couldn't agree more! Who *would* be better suited to handle a
ressurected Greyhawk? Should GG come back, as one GH fan, I must say,
I'd be buying up the GH and GG stuff at an oerth-shattering pace!
J
--
Ross W. Maker
stephenJ wrote:
> I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
> would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> arbiter of any game....
Excuse me, Stephen, but have you ever READ any old Dragons from the EGG
era? They are chock full of EGG pontificating on what is "official" and
how it is wrong to deviate from that. That is what the "Game Police"
parody in Paranoia refers to. The DM was to be the final arbiter, but
only if he maintained the "official" policy.
Ross W. Maker
E. Filson
stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
>would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
>that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
>always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
>arbiter of any game....
I profer for your enjoyment and refutation, the Dragon Magazine series ca.
68. There were a number of articles in which he plainly states that if
you change the written rules, you are no longer playing AD&D. Roger
Moore, in an article about the Astral Plane which was later adapted for
the Motp, wrote in the preface to said article that nothing he wrote was
"official"... Yet EGG wrote the introduction and then adapted the
article. Any number of articles, many of which were copywrited (and hence
owned?) by EGG, contain mentions of how they are "unofficial". The
question wasn't, "How can I best modify my game of AD&D?" it was, "If I
want to play an AD&D derivative, what rules do I want to use?" EGG has
been quoted on this newsgroup a number of times as critiquing convention
games for their "un-AD&D" nature.
All of this has probably changed since then (a la _Master of the Game_).
I am simply stating a concern. Perhaps it would be better phrased, I am
concerned that EGG has trouble working with a large number of
collaborators in which he does not have executive control.
dek
E. Filson
john...@tiac.net (John R. Troy) writes:
>Simply put, there are certain things that he can do best. I don't
>think he should work on Core AD&D, so much as I think he would be best
>suited to producing the Greyhawk world--after all, who would know it
>better?
Carl Sargent, who adopted the project. We've been through this before,
the two of us :-).
>Plus, having him write one or two sourcebooks on various
>stuff would only help the game, no?
Absolutely.
dek
Alan D Kohler
In article <33B93B...@ix.netcom.com>, sja...@ix.netcom.com says...
>> >proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
>> >original source.
>>
>> chauvanisms, references to which I have snipped, he had a hang up about
>> what was offical and what wasn't. It seemed to me that his "creator
>> complex" would utterly get in the way of him creating good product for
>> AD&D... "PO doesn't count because I, creator of the game, never declared
>> it official. Same goes for 2nd edition and all 1st edition supplements
>> created after I left."
>>
>> If this attitude returns, I'll find other products to buy.
>>
>
>would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
>that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
>always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
>arbiter of any game....
Yeah, then he would go on to tell us how absolutely essential it was for us to
follow many "hated" mechanisms, like level limits, and gave us extremely
detailed chiseled out stone tablets of rules-from-on-high like UA. It was only
after EGG was excised and the inception of 2nd edition we saw more moderation
and flexibility creep back into the rules.
IMO, if they bring him back on, only do so as a cretive consultant for,
perhaps, grayhawk, or let him author a few adventures. But do not give him
back the helm (or anything close to the helm), please.
--
SPAM FILTER NOTICE - REMOVE "REMOVE2REPLY" to reply by email.
Alan D Kohler hwk...@REMOVE2REPLYpoky.srv.net
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it."
Jack Handly, Deep Thoughts
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <33B861...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Mr. Tines wrote:
> >
> > ###
> >
> > On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:36:08 GMT, in <5p79rj$5i9$1...@nerd.apk.net>
> > iron...@erienet.REMOVE-TO-REPLY.net (Iron Czar) wrote.....
> >
> > > Heaven forfend! What Terrible Things might occur if the one person
> > > most resposnsible for making the rpg hobby what it is today were to
> > > return to the industry! Woe! Grief!
> >
> > Cyborg Commandos. Nuff said.
> >
>
> Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
Cyborg Commandos.
--
To respond via email, remove non-licit characters to change my site to "cornell.edu".
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation."
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <5p9pgm$2...@winter.erols.com>, "Neale Davidson"
<nea...@erols.com> wrote:
> He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
> proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to the
> original source.
"Ranger"
"Bard"
etc., eh?
Bryan J. Maloney
> Ross W. Maker wrote:
> >
> > stephenJ wrote:
> > > Nonsense. DJ was an *excellent* RPG, and we all know how it was done
> > > in.....
> > >
> > > Bring Gygax back!!
> >
> > Maybe you would like to explain to Frank and Loren why this excellent
> > RPG was not selling worth beans even before TSR insisted on enforcing
> > EGG's non-compete contract (about which he had misled GDW).
> >
> > Ross W. Maker
>
> Maybe because people were still satisfied with his greatest masterpiece,
> AD&D, and not interested in a new game??? Why play DJ when you already
> own 1st edition AD&D?
And why were none of the gamers who couldn't get the 1st edition buying
it. The game was in critical need of a merciless editor. Instead, it was
train-of-though spew.
ed
The noble "Ross W. Maker" <rma...@citilink.com> spake on the day of Tue,
01 Jul 1997 13:26:58 -0500:
>stephenJ wrote:
>> I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
>> would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
>> that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
>> always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
>> arbiter of any game....
>
>Excuse me, Stephen, but have you ever READ any old Dragons from the EGG
>era? They are chock full of EGG pontificating on what is "official" and
>how it is wrong to deviate from that. That is what the "Game Police"
>parody in Paranoia refers to. The DM was to be the final arbiter, but
>only if he maintained the "official" policy.
Too f***ing right. I was playing D&D/AD&D in the 70s and EEG was VERY
insistant on what was to be done and how it was to be done.
That's why you get lunacies like the original vast array of pole-arms
and from there upwards into more serious flaws
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich Shipley
stephenJ wrote:
> I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
> would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> arbiter of any game....
In the Dragon letters column, he stated that if female Dwarves in your
campaign did not have beards, that you were not playing official AD&D.
I'm not sure why anyone cared.
Rich
ThresholdMURPE
In article <33B83D...@teldta.com>,
Fred Strauss <fred.s...@teldta.com> wrote:
>Comparing of course to all of TSR's non-AD&D stuff which is just great
>and sells like hot cakes! Never a dog there huh? Now let me get back
>to my Buck Rogers please.
ROFL! Buck Rogers! Hehehehe
Bring Gary back at least to oversee the quality of the AD&D line. Perhaps he
won't let the crap be geared for 10 year olds.
-Aristotle@Threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
VISIT THRESHOLD MURPE! Online High Fantasy RPG!
Guilds: fighter/mage/thief/cleric/psion/bard/alchemist/shapeshifter
Player run clans, businesses, legal system, nobility, highly developed
religions, missile combat, tons of quests/areas, intense Role Playing!
http://www.athens.net/~aristotle/threshold
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
telnet://mud.chelmsford.com -or- telnet mud.chelmsford.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Neale Davidson
>I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
>would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
>that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
>always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
>arbiter of any game....
I wish I still had some of his old Dragon articles... but here's a few
paraphrases that I'm sure can be easily confirmed.
"The only reason for women in AD&D is to serve drinks."
"Any rules seen in Dragon magazine are irrelevant. Only the rules that
I write apply."
"Anyone using house rules are cheating, since only the rules in the
books are official."
"Guns will never appear in AD&D"... followed by my character getting
shot by him at a convention...
Neale
Gregory Bernath
In article <33B94A...@aetna.com.no.spammers>,
Doctor Doom <Lawre...@aetna.com.no.spammers> wrote:
>I couldn't agree more! Who *would* be better suited to handle a
>ressurected Greyhawk?
Carl Sargent. IMHO, his work was better than EGG's. I believe he's
working for FASA now; I hope TSR gets in touch with him. At the
minimum they should officially publish _Ivid the Undying_.
>Should GG come back, as one GH fan, I must say,
>I'd be buying up the GH and GG stuff at an oerth-shattering pace!
Considering that EGG shattered Oerth in a fit of pique, rather
appropriate words. Seeing how EGG broke his toy so that no one else
could play with it, I'm not particularly anxious to see it back in
his hands again.
--
Greg Bernath gber...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu
David R. Henry
Bryan J. Maloney writes:
>> Please. Gygax co-invented DD and invented ADD. Nuff said...
>
>Cyborg Commandos.
Aww, c'mon! It's not like Cyborg Commandos is like, oh, Senzar. And it's not like
Gygax would write trite fantasy novels without any idea... of... how to... hmm.
I take it back.
Cyborg Commandos.
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu
Lion Clan Dragon --
stephenJ
Ross W. Maker wrote:
>
> stephenJ wrote:
> > would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> > that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> > always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> > arbiter of any game....
>
> era? They are chock full of EGG pontificating on what is "official" and
> how it is wrong to deviate from that. That is what the "Game Police"
> parody in Paranoia refers to. The DM was to be the final arbiter, but
> only if he maintained the "official" policy.
>
Yes, i subscribed to Dragon back in the old days (issues 35 - 120, i
think), and i read them all. Yes, Gygax emphasized, promoted, and tried
to sell official TSR rules and products. But never once do i recall him
claiming that anyone but the DM was the final arbiter of the game. As
for me, i read Gygax' editorials, and then cheerfully went out and
bought not just the TSR stuff, but also ICE, Mayfair, Role-Aids, Games
Workshop, and any other stuff that i thought might help with my ADD
game. So what was the damage done?
--
stephenJ
Neale Davidson wrote:
>
> >I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
> >would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> >that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> >always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> >arbiter of any game....
>
> paraphrases that I'm sure can be easily confirmed.
>
> "The only reason for women in AD&D is to serve drinks."
>
> "Any rules seen in Dragon magazine are irrelevant. Only the rules that
> I write apply."
>
> "Anyone using house rules are cheating, since only the rules in the
> books are official."
>
> "Guns will never appear in AD&D"... followed by my character getting
> shot by him at a convention...
>
> Neale
Neale, did Gygax ever write anything that contradicted the
plain-language statement in the DMG that the DM is the final arbiter of
the game??
Tim Breen
> This week we finalized the schedule for the rest of 1997 and we're
> cutting purchase orders for new products and some backlist products.
> Everyone's excited to have the presses rolling again! In fact,
> when the first shipment comes to the warehouse we thought of running
> out to the trucks with cookies for the drivers, a film crew, etc.,
> "So, Mr. Truckdriver (or Ms. Truckdriver), how does it feel to be
> making the first big delivery of TSR products? How was the drive in?
> Did you have trouble with crowd control along the way?" Yeah, okay,
> so we're getting a little giddy out here but that pretty much
> describes the mood right now.
You should try having TSR authors autograph some of the outgoing
material. Wouldn't that make them "collectible"? <grin>
> All that said, we do have a saying around here: "lines never
> die, they simply go into hiatus for a while." We will never completely
> give up on a line. Rather, we hope to do what Disney does with old
> properties: bring them back every once in a while for a new treatment
> and revival.
This is an excellent strategy and, as you say, one which has served
Disney well over the years. The readers in THIS news group, at least,
ought to applaud this idea (even as they're scratching at your door to
get their own favorite "out of print" line re-published).
> In some areas we plan on spending more money, not less. We plan on
> spending more on market research and marketing. With increased
> expenditures in market research we hope to make more accurate
> decisions on what types of products to develop, how much to produce,
> and how to promote it.
Hmmm... Sounds like somebody there has been in business before. <g>
Good.
> With increased expenditures in marketing we
> plan to invest primarily in organized play activities like the RPGA,
> conventions, and other support for grass roots play. With marketing
> and market research these additional expenditures will hopefully pay
> for themselves with increased sales.
I, for one, would like to see the RPGA have a more "grass roots"-like
feel. Many members wrongly believe that it's like a club, even though
Robert Wiese has said publicly on several occasions that it's an
association, like the Automobile Club. I believe that there SHOULD be
room for an actual member-run "club" like the [however incorrect] public
perception of the RPGA, and that such an entity should be encouraged by
manufacturers like WotC. What I'd like to see most is the RPGA becoming
this club.
> Dragon, Dungeon, Polyhedron: These are excellent publications that,
> even though they don't really make money, are important products for
> supporting TSR customers and products. We will continue all these
> magazines.
The support of Polyhedron is the best news I've heard about the buyout
so far. I sincerely hope that you can (and will try to) get Jeff Quick
back to edit the magazine. In the last few issues of Polyhedron to be
published, Jeff had done a spectacular job of bringing the newszine back
into line with what the members apparently wanted.
> * Electronic media. We must develop a comprehensive strategy for
> dealing with the Internet and PC platforms. TSR has tried doing its
> own software development, and has done an extensive amount of
> licensing. We need to explore all options and develop a vision.
Any chance that you'll be hiring in this arena? <grin>
> TSR made a strategic decision a number of years ago to target a
> younger audience in its marketing decisions and product content.
> We are reversing that course. We will market our games as serious
> products for a mature audience.
This news ranks right up there with the decision on Polyhedron, for me.
One of the reasons why there is so much support here for the 1st edition
of AD&D is its more scholarly "feel." That's one of the things that
attracted me to the game in the first place; not only could I play a
neat new (at the time 1978) game, but it could teach me things, too.
> One of the things I've been working on personally is building bridges
> and mending fences, that is, trying to improve relationships with some
> of the people who used to work here but don't anymore. I've had
> conversations with Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Zeb Cook, Margaret Weis,
> Tracy Hickman, and so on. It is too early to tell where these
> discussions will lead, but I'm cautiously optimistic that we will be
> able to work with some of these people once again.
Excellent! I particularly hope that you can bring back Zeb Cook, and of
course there's probably tremendous marketing potential if you can get
the Arneson and Gygax names associated with new products.
In all, it sounds like the TSR/WotC deal will do a lot to revitalize the
hobby gaming industry, and the AD&D lines in particular.
-- Tim
Personal: http://personalweb.lightside.com/Pfiles/breen1.html
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Bryan J. Maloney
In article <33B946...@cellnet.com>, p-w...@accesscom.lcom wrote:
> Personally, I think it would be interesting if Gygax produced some new
> Greyhawk material, but I do really wonder how well it would hold up by
> today's standards.
Given an editor with the authority to actually edit him, it could be quite
good. Gygax has a lot of ideas, but he *DESPERATELY* needs an editor.
(And a deadline guy with a bullwhip.)
Bryan J. Maloney
> I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
> would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> arbiter of any game....
You never read "Sorcerer's Scroll", did you?
David Crowe
ed <edh...@equus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
: That's why you get lunacies like the original vast array of pole-arms
: and from there upwards into more serious flaws
OK, time for polearm stories. Who used the many AD&D polearms all that
much? Did anyone feel the lack of "realistic" polearms in other games?
Ob Polearms: I got a chuckle out of a letter to Dragon defending polearms
against other weapons like swords on the basis of cost in GP vs damage.
Never mind the issue of trying to walk into a room with a polearm. Anyone
see Wing Chun last Friday? 'Nuff said.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
You only read the manual when something you can't figure out. -Skuld
Christopher Maikisch
David Crowe (jet...@primenet.com) wrote:
: OK, time for polearm stories. Who used the many AD&D polearms all that
: much? Did anyone feel the lack of "realistic" polearms in other games?
You only really need 3 types of polearms:
Lg. Pole Wapon
Sm. Pole Weapon
Bohemian Ear-Spoon
Nix!
--
[ Christopher Maikisch ] >>> Repeal the First Law of Thermodynamics <<<
[ Weird, Crafty, & ] += Pherrit by nature, if not by choice =+
[ Marginally Sane. ] ******* Hail Eris! All hail Discordia! *******
-Knights of Watergate- -AbnorMail Addict- -Creative Hypocrisy Institute-
Canticle
: > Hmmm... somehow I don't think EGG made rpg's what they are today.
: > Otherwise, we'd all still be hunting kobolds, orcs and trolls living in
: > "apartment complex" caves.
If it weren't for those apartment complex caves, I would never have started
playing RPGs. Caves of Chaos got me interested in D&D, which led to AD&D,
which ultimately led to my fanatical devotion to MERP.
People whine and cry about how simplistic things like early D&D were, and
are failing to note that it was this simplicity which INTRODUCED people to
Role Playing. Want to know what the big problem facing the industry is?
Stagnation. No new blood. Magic helped, but RPGs are doomed unless they can
get people interested and intrigued right from the start.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Franzmann * ...pulled through the earth,
Campaign Outfitters Internet Rep * to meet the king of worms
Winnipeg, Manitoba, CANADA * to steal away his wisdom,
Cant...@aratar.mb.ca * and learn to decompose...
Cant...@ebytes.com * -'Stalker', Covenant
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Official Murkygoth (tm) of the Five Colours of Death
Campaign Outfitters Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~campaign
Canticle Publishing Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~canticle
Jason Mulligan
In article <33b8cebe...@news.eunet.no>, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen writes:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:21:10 +0000, JohnnyB
> <joh...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu> uttered:
>
> >I'm so glad that someone acknowledged this! I was pretty sick of
> >hearing people defend everything TSR did with the "they're in business
> >to make a profit" line. Games for gamers by gamers!!
>
> That ideal didn't save Mayfair, though.
It has/and is working for Iron Crown though.
-
Jason Mulligan
E-Mail to: ma...@valinor.hna.com.au
"The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the Devil's own
Satanic herd!!"
-- Edmund Blackadder
Mr. Tines
###
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:51:24 -0600, in <8676566...@dejanews.com>
WorldWeaver <b...@succeed.net> wrote.....
> writing in general. The first edition DMG, though nearly 20 years old,
> remains one of the best reference works for FRPG DMs today.
Now if you'd said that of C&S, or the C&S Sourcebook, I might have
believed you.
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Mr. Tines
###
On Tue, 01 Jul 1997 10:23:23 -0500, in
<bjm10-01079...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>
bjm10@c$or$ne!ll#.e&du (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote.....
> In article <5p9pgm$2...@winter.erols.com>, "Neale Davidson"
> <nea...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
> > proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to
the
> > original source.
>
> "Ranger"
> "Bard"
I've heard the same regarding the illusionist class, the original
psionics system and the design for the outer planes. I've been in
correspondence with one very bitter ex-gamer who is still sore about
what was done uncredited with his work, even after all these years.
Heck, one of the magic items in UA bears an extraordinary resemblance
in its description to one I published in a fanzine in '82 or thereabouts.
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/ / / / _ \/ -_|_-< PGP key at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/1394
/_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@windsong.demon.co.uk (or mr_tines at geocities.com)
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Mr. Tines
###
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:44:35 -0500, in <33B861...@ix.netcom.com>
stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote.....
> Please. Gygax co-invented DD
You have heard the phrase "One hit wonder", I trust.
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Neale Davidson
>My understanding is that they bought the existing stock (at cost) from
>GDW to settle GDW's counter-suit against them. GDW did not contest
>TSR's claims vis-a-vis EGG's non-compete, but they did claim that TSR
>should have notified them much sooner (e.g., when the game was
>announced). On the non-compete TSR DID have an airtight case. On the
>timeliness of notification, GDW was in a pretty good position.
TSR wisely waited until they had their case built before threatening
GDW. GDW wasn't terribly surprised when it came to light, however...
and EGG apparantly didn't realize what 'Contract' meant. Maybe he
thought it was in the Italian sense?
Neale
Neale Davidson
>Well, from what I understand (and I have to be honest I do not have them)
>he wrote most of the PO stuff (or items really simular to those rules) in
>the Dangerous Journies(sp ???) game. If that is the case I don't think
he
>would have a problem with it ... However even if that is not the case I
>think that EGG's attitude toward ADnD is not as suggested or has changed.
>I'm in a email list that he frequents and he seems to be quite open to
most
>anything that makes game playing enjoyable...
No, DJ and PO are completely different beasts. DJ had good stuff in it...
but it was mired in a mess of rules complexities and college text-book
writing. DJ also had some MAJOR game flaws when it was released,
indicating that it was not playtested. (Healing is harder for people with
higher physical attributes).
PO was mostly culled from old articles about AD&D from various sources.
Neale
Neale Davidson
Bryan J. Maloney wrote in article ...
>In article <5p9pgm$2...@winter.erols.com>, "Neale Davidson"
><nea...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> He was also notorious for rewriting ideas sent into Dragon magazine,
>> proclaiming the rewrites as 'official', and then offering no credit to
the
>> original source.
>
>"Ranger"
>"Bard"
Matrix, Bryan! You haven't agreed with me since college! :)
Neale
Neale Davidson
>Bring Gary back at least to oversee the quality of the AD&D line. Perhaps
he
>won't let the crap be geared for 10 year olds.
Much better to go completely bankrupt and die in obscurity with the
Grognards...
Neale
Neale Davidson
>Ok. The trolling comment was unfair. But what "reasoning" is there to
>respond to. He just declared that Gygax wasn't the creator of games that
>have his name on them. And that *courts* evaluated in order to determine
>credit an ownership of. So what's he talking about???
There were a number of contributers, including TSR employees, who
very EXTREMELY upset that Gygax would take one of their articles
and cull in into something he was working on, then call it his own.
The specific lawsuits filed against EGG are on file with the
State of Wisconsin. There are a number of them on public record.
Neale
RIsaacs
"Mike Wilson" <mwi...@flash.net> wrote:
<<I'm in a email list that he frequents and he seems to be quite open to
most anything that makes game playing enjoyable...>>
That's the odd thing. On the one hand, EGG says that the play's the
thing, and that gamers don't really need rules. Then he pontificates
about how only his rules are valid and there is only one way to play AD&D.
I remember the "good old days" of EGG in Dragon Magazine. I give the man
his propers, he created the industry. But then he went all wacky. Sort
of like other people in this business who break new ground, become full of
themselves and go off to do wacky-assed things.
Nope, I don't miss EGG. And I believe the big drive to bring Dave Arneson
back (at least in this NG) is so that the man finally gets the recognition
he deserves.
Ross A. Isaacs
John R. Troy
On 1 Jul 97 19:08:24 GMT, efi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (E. Filson)
wrote:
>john...@tiac.net (John R. Troy) writes:
>
>>Simply put, there are certain things that he can do best. I don't
>>think he should work on Core AD&D, so much as I think he would be best
>>suited to producing the Greyhawk world--after all, who would know it
>>better?
>
>Carl Sargent, who adopted the project. We've been through this before,
>the two of us :-).
>
>>Plus, having him write one or two sourcebooks on various
>>stuff would only help the game, no?
>
>Absolutely.
>
Got no problem with that.
Though I think the best thing for all would be for WoTC to get in
touch with the primary creative types for the realms--those who had
the core spark for the realms (Gygax for Greyhawk, Hickman/Weiss for
DragonLance, and Ed Greenwood for FR), and say something like...okay,
in some areas we screwed up, but we would like to give you a bit more
creative control. We will let you "reboot" the campaigns...what would
you like us to change...somehow I think we'll end up with better
stuff.
In case anybody cares, Gygax has stated he's willing to work within
the parameters...I think having him back wouldn't automatically mean
he'd ignore EVERYTHING, but at the same time, he's also said he wants
"Demons and Devils" back in the setting (IOW, no BS names), and I
don't think he wants the universe tied into the other TSR campaigns,
which I think's a good idea. I think he's stated that he'd appreciate
being able to contribute his stuff as "seperate, alternate" stuff...
In any event, I have a feeling that a revival of Greyhawk really
requires Gygax input, since I think it will boost sales wheras a
simple revival won't. People are still asking him for input, the
popularity of Greyhawk questions is frequent on the Gygax web
sites/chat room, and there's a load of source material there...
==========================
John R. Troy
john...@tiac.net
sawb...@uniserve.com
john...@tiac.net (John R. Troy) wrote:
>One thing all should consider...
>It is HIGHLY unlikely that Gary Gygax would be given Carte Blanche
>control over AD&D again. It has now become simply too much of a
>product for one person. I wouldn't recommend that happen, doubt it
>would, and wonder why people consider everything in extremes (He's
>Back, He'll Kill D&D!)
>Simply put, there are certain things that he can do best. I don't
>think he should work on Core AD&D, so much as I think he would be best
>suited to producing the Greyhawk world--after all, who would know it
>better? Plus, having him write one or two sourcebooks on various
>stuff would only help the game, no?
This is probably not an unreasonable compromise, although from what
I've heard of EGG's personality he probably wouldn't work on anything
unless he was the director of the line.
As far as EGG's "claim" to inventing RPG's, it probably doesn't
matter.
The Wright brothers flew the first plane at Kittyhawk, but I don't
think they could manage Boeing.
Times have changed, and EGG is lost in the days of Dungeon crawling.
Grant Kinsley M.D.
sawb...@uniserve.com
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, "Ross W. Maker" <rma...@citilink.com> spoke
thusly:
>stephenJ wrote:
>> I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
>> would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
>> that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
>> always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
>> arbiter of any game....
>Excuse me, Stephen, but have you ever READ any old Dragons from the EGG
>era? They are chock full of EGG pontificating on what is "official" and
>how it is wrong to deviate from that. That is what the "Game Police"
>parody in Paranoia refers to. The DM was to be the final arbiter, but
>only if he maintained the "official" policy.
Part of the problem (and I think this contributed to the problems
within DJ) is that Gygax assumes a certain amount of common sense,
creativity and know-how on the part of players and readers. Gygax
assumes that you *know* that the GM has the final say, that you know
that the object of playing in the first place is to have fun. He also
assumes, I think, that you *know* that what he's writing is just his
opinion, and shouldn't neccessarily be taken as gospel. What some
people like to see as pompous and pontificating, I see as an
unwillingness to write down to the reader.
Personally, I find this attitude more pleasing than the
write-down-to-everybody style that TSR adopted after EGG's departure.
I don't think of myself as an idiot and don't appreciate it when
someone whom I have never met assumes that I am.
>Ross W. Maker
Iron Czar
iron...@erienet.net
http://www.erienet.net/~ironczar
Iron Czar
In rec.games.frp.misc, hwk...@REMOVE2REPLY.poky.srv.net (Alan D
Kohler) spoke thusly:
>IMO, if they bring him back on, only do so as a cretive consultant for,
>perhaps, grayhawk, or let him author a few adventures. But do not give him
>back the helm (or anything close to the helm), please.
I find it hard to beleive that this is even being seriously discussed.
I would be more than shocked if WotC put Gygax "in charge" of AD&D.
That's REALLY unlikely. I *could* see him being placed in charge of,
say, Greyhawk, or maybe a new original setting (which hopefully would
not at all resemble DJ's Aerth), or perhaps designing some
supplimental material.
In fact (are you reading this, Peter?) I would be overjoyed if Gygax
were to return to work on AD&D in some capacity. Perhaps enough to
make me forget about my decade-long AD&D boycott.
Klattu5020
Lost in the days of Dungeon crawling? Have you seen Dangerous Journeys
Mythus. His latest paper fantasy game that emphasizes social classes and
political intrigue to the point that most AD&D hack and slash players dont
understand how to play it. Hack and slash is a choice just not mine. Are
you aware that Gygax now does online gaming material, more modern that
most paper RPG companies.
Good Gaming,
Michaael John Weaver
Klatt...@aol.com
stephenJ
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
> In article <33B93B...@ix.netcom.com>, stephenJ <sja...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know where this attitude comes from. Yes, in the old days Gygax
> > would promote TSR products and demote those of other companies. But
> > that, obviously, was Business. As far as gaming is concerned, Gygax
> > always emphasized that the *DM*, not him or anyone else, is the final
> > arbiter of any game....
>
Read 'em all....
Mark Kinney
Neale Davidson (nea...@erols.com) wrote:
: "Guns will never appear in AD&D"... followed by my character getting
: shot by him at a convention...
And this with the Boot Hill crossover conversion right there in the first
edition DMG... :-)
--
*** From the Desktop of Mark Allen Kinney
mailto:albe...@iglou.com | http://www.iglou.com/nations
Mad Hatter
BTW- Once and for all, can someone tell me what the E in E. Gary Gygax
stands for? It's been bugging me for half a year now...
BluSponge
In article <33B9E9D0...@cryptont.REMOVETHIS.com>, Mad Hatter
<st...@cryptont.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
> BTW- Once and for all, can someone tell me what the E in E. Gary Gygax
> stands for? It's been bugging me for half a year now...
Ernest.
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Rants and comentaries, RPGs - Deadlands and FUDGE,
and links of all sorts and sizes.
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Jason M Hatter
Fred Strauss (fred.s...@teldta.com) wrote:
: Comparing of course to all of TSR's non-AD&D stuff which is just great
: and sells like hot cakes! Never a dog there huh? Now let me get back
: to my Buck Rogers please.
I never claimed that. I'm countering the "Gygax is Ghod" view. Yes, he
had some damned good ideas. But that doesn't mean that bringing him back
to AD&D is going to somehow revitalize the entire damned game. He's put
out some crap (both real and perceived) in the last decade. I'm just
trying to get people to realize that Gygax holy name isn't all it's
cracked up to be.
Jason
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon Picture Archive http://www.delta.edu/~jmhatter/archive.html