5 kids claiming to be 'vampires' arrested for murder
Canticle
Feh.
I brought this little topic up at our regular staff meeting, due to the
fact that a few people are already making connections between these 5 kids
and Vampire:The Masquerade (as well as LARP), despite the fact that I've
heard NOTHING on the media about it. I think the reaction of my boss sums
it up perfectly...
'No need to worry'.
People will find something to blame for every problem. Rather than the
parents of some of these kids, or their upbringing, or screwed up lives,
they'll blame 'goths' 'vampire stories' or Count Chocula. All to deflect
the blame from where it belongs...a family or society that failed to look
after a child (and all those people who think that society isn't
responsible for the raising of a child? Every action we take has the
potential to affect someone in a very serious way.
The fact that one of the kids had purple hair and wore black is so
completely irrelevent...especially considering the fact that the other _4_
didn't exactly attract too much attention with their features or manner of
dress. Naturally, normal looking people committing heinous crimes aren't
going to be featured...they don't give good enough press, so they get
shoved aside in favour of the one 'freak' in the bunch. After all 'VAMPIRE
MURDERS!' is much more of a sell out for a newspaper or local TV station
than 'MIDDLE CLASS UPBRINGING BREEDS MURDERERS!'.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Jeff Franzmann ~ People are strange,
~ Campaign Outfitters Netrep ~ When you're a stranger
~ Editor in Chief, CPI ~ People look ugly,
~Winnipeg, Manitoba ~ When you're alone...
~ CANADA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Campaign Outfitters Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~campaign
Canticle Publishing Homepage : http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~canticle
Mark Kinney
Canticle (cant...@aratar.mb.ca) wrote:
: Feh.
: I brought this little topic up at our regular staff meeting, due to the
: fact that a few people are already making connections between these 5 kids
: and Vampire:The Masquerade (as well as LARP), despite the fact that I've
: heard NOTHING on the media about it. I think the reaction of my boss sums
: it up perfectly...
As I said in the other thread about this, roleplaying *is* being mentioned
as at least part of the background of the Kentucky group, as of Saturday's
Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY). The terminology involved almost
certainly points to V:TM. I've already seen a relative of one of those
charged quotes saying "I thought it was just a game..."
: 'No need to worry'.
I'm not so sure about this one. I'm already working on a pre-emptive
letter to the editor about this. Anyone with any tips, let me know,
please.
I may also set up a refutation page on my web site, if anyone could give
me some pointers to some CARPGa-related pagers to link from it.
(Additional info pointers never hurt, after all.)
--
Mark Kinney | albe...@iglou.com | http://www.iglou.com/nations/
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority."
-- The Doctor, "Doctor Who: The Wheel In Space"
Canticle
: albe...@iglou.com (Mark Kinney) wrote in article
<E1rvz...@iglou.com>...
: Canticle (cant...@aratar.mb.ca) wrote:
: As I said in the other thread about this, roleplaying *is* being
mentioned
: as at least part of the background of the Kentucky group, as of
Saturday's
: Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY). The terminology involved almost
: certainly points to V:TM. I've already seen a relative of one of those
: charged quotes saying "I thought it was just a game..."
Yech. This means that we can brace for a rather large media blitz
regarding the dangers of Live Action Role Playing (which has, to my
knowledge, escaped negative media attention for a very long time). I
guarantee you that hack reporters are already slavering over the potential
of these stories.
Here's the major problem.
A lot of LARP players fit the stereotypes of the 'anti-societal menace' in
more than simple superficial ways. It's easy to laugh at calls for banning
AD&D or Fantasy RPGs when the people playing the games look more like
overachievers and 'geeks' than potential psychopaths. LARP has a problem
in that (at least locally), a lot of the people who play are easy targets
for a media trying to tarnish the game. I can't speak for other games in
other cities, but locally, a lot of the players have no jobs (some are
proud of this fact), dress in a manner than 'regular' society would
consider disgusting or 'wrong' (I may fit that category at times, but I
have a job), or have engaged in questionable activities (I can think of a
few off hand who were involved in bloodletting and the consumption of
blood a few years back and were interviewed about it). AFAIK, none of
these people are 'evil' or 'bad'. They just don't fit the profile of
people who are 'normal', and therefore become easy targets. Unlike 'geeks'
or 'nerds', a lot of these people can't fall back on the 'But I have a job
and family, and I do such and such' in order to deflect the negative
reactions.
All of this can lead to some serious problems if the wrong person gets
interviewed by the media.
PLAYER: 'Yeah, I believe in vampires. I'm not one myself, but I find that
playing one allows me to explore the dark side of my soul. My character
does things I wouldn't."
MEDIA: "Then you would say that you could do things while acting the part
of a vampire? Would you drink blood? Perhaps someone might be drive to
kill?"
PLAYER: "No no no..."
Too late at this point, the media has their sound bite '..allows me to
explore the dark side of my soul. My character does things I wouldn't.'
: I'm not so sure about this one. I'm already working on a pre-emptive
: letter to the editor about this. Anyone with any tips, let me know,
: please.
Above all else, remember that Goth DOES NOT EQUAL Vampire Player. There
are goths who play Vampire:TM, there are goths who could care less.
Playing Vampire does not make you a goth. I say this because a lot of
press people are going to no doubt be calling goth/industrial clubs asking
about the game and that sort of thing, just because its almost easier than
finding people who play it. And they will try to draw connections.
William J. Walton
albe...@iglou.com (Mark Kinney) wrote:
>I may also set up a refutation page on my web site, if anyone could give
>me some pointers to some CARPGa-related pagers to link from it.
>(Additional info pointers never hurt, after all.)
>
Mark,
Currently, the official CAR-PGa page resides at:
http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/carpga.htm
And it contains a bunch of links to "additional info" pages, including
many "What Are Role-Playing Games" pages.
Good luck. And drop me an e-mail when you've got it posted, ok?
Thanks,
Bill
"Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."
- anon.
athol-brose
In article <01bbdf6f.72d5d1c0$15b2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>,
Canticle <cant...@aratar.mb.ca> wrote:
>I brought this little topic up at our regular staff meeting, due to the
>fact that a few people are already making connections between these 5 kids
>and Vampire:The Masquerade (as well as LARP), despite the fact that I've
>heard NOTHING on the media about it. I think the reaction of my boss sums
>it up perfectly...
[snip]
It's been on the media here (understandably; some of the kids are from
Greater Cincinnati), and I also heard something about it on NPR this
morning.
The local news coverage was rather... sensationalistic. While describing
some things about stuff the kids had allegedly done (cutting up a puppy to
drink it's blood), they showed footage of puppies in the pond. They then
immediately linked it all to "satanic withcraft" and showed some movie
fottage (!) from "The Craft" (?!). You'd think if they were going for the
entertainment angle, they would at least have found footage from a movie
that had something to do with vampires.
My letter to the station about their witchcraft angle and use of
unrelated footage is about half-finished. I am going to mail it soon.
The NPR blurp liinked the murder to "a bizarre vampire role-playing game
gone horribly wrong". This was on Morning Edition.
I don't think it's g oing to be the end of the world. But it's hardly
"nothing to worry about", for odpagans or for role-players.
Please excuse sloppy editing; my Telnet session is severly lagged.
--
athol-brose -- cinn...@one.net -- http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/
J. McGuire
Has anyone contacted the newspaper yet?
-- Jean
Wintertree Software | Remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
"If not me, then who? If not now, then when?"
Murgorath Ultimatum
cinn...@shell.one.net (athol-brose) wrote:
>In article <01bbdf6f.72d5d1c0$15b2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>,
>Canticle <cant...@aratar.mb.ca> wrote:
>>I brought this little topic up at our regular staff meeting, due to the
>>fact that a few people are already making connections between these 5 kids
>>and Vampire:The Masquerade (as well as LARP), despite the fact that I've
>>heard NOTHING on the media about it. I think the reaction of my boss sums
>>it up perfectly...
>>'No need to worry'.
>[snip]
>It's been on the media here (understandably; some of the kids are from
>Greater Cincinnati), and I also heard something about it on NPR this
>morning.
>The local news coverage was rather... sensationalistic. While describing
>some things about stuff the kids had allegedly done (cutting up a puppy to
>drink it's blood), they showed footage of puppies in the pond. They then
>immediately linked it all to "satanic withcraft" and showed some movie
>fottage (!) from "The Craft" (?!). You'd think if they were going for the
>entertainment angle, they would at least have found footage from a movie
>that had something to do with vampires.
Those Bastards! Why don't they think AT LEAST about how Witchcraft
ain't Satanic? Witchcraft IS PAGAN!!! They could be marched on from a
Pagan's Revolution for that!
>My letter to the station about their witchcraft angle and use of
>unrelated footage is about half-finished. I am going to mail it soon.
>The NPR blurp liinked the murder to "a bizarre vampire role-playing game
>gone horribly wrong". This was on Morning Edition.
Fuck them. Just Fuck,fuck,fuck THEM!! Those Assholes... Probably NEVER
even played the game. I think I'll write on their STUPID prejudice
soon. Aren't they aware that's what is? P R E J U D I C E ! ! ! ! ! !
>I don't think it's g oing to be the end of the world. But it's hardly
>"nothing to worry about", for odpagans or for role-players.
Because of prejudice. We could sue for that you know.
tsrs...@aol.com
Cantile wrote:
> A lot of LARP players fit the stereotypes of the 'anti-societal
> menace' in more than simple superficial ways. It's easy to laugh at
> calls for banning AD&D or Fantasy RPGs when the people playing the
> games look more like overachievers and 'geeks' than potential
> psychopaths. LARP has a problem in that (at least locally), a lot of
> the people who play are easy targets for a media trying to tarnish
> the game.
Nope. It's not just your area. We've got two "Vampire" LARPs that happen
every summer and fall here in Lake Geneva, and several of the participants
make even me wonder about gaming as a healthy hobby.
Fortunately, though, the local paper has only run positive feature stories
on the LARPs.
[snip]
> All of this can lead to some serious problems if the wrong person
> gets interviewed by the media.
>
> PLAYER: 'Yeah, I believe in vampires. I'm not one myself, but I find
> that playing one allows me to explore the dark side of my soul. My
> character does things I wouldn't."
>
> MEDIA: "Then you would say that you could do things while acting the
> part of a vampire? Would you drink blood? Perhaps someone might be
> drive to kill?"
>
> PLAYER: "No no no..."
>
> Too late at this point, the media has their sound bite '..allows me
> to explore the dark side of my soul. My character does things I
> wouldn't.'
There's that. There's also the problem that some of these media types
"ambush" their subjects and/or don't bother setting a context for their
interviewer. There was a poor TSR staffer who ended up on some bit of
religious programming saying that DRAGON DICE was "black magic" when she
was actually referring to a specific mechanic in the game.
If the media's looking for something to smear, they'll find it one way or
the other.
(And as a former media guy, I know. You can slant pretty much anything any
way you want.)
Steve Miller TSRS...@aol.com
DRAGONLANCE & RAVENLOFT Design Teams
OBSTINATE, adj. Inaccessible to the truth as it is manifest in the splendor and stress of our advocacy.
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
S.F. Eley
*Sarcasm Mode: ON*
Murgorath Ultimatum wrote:
>
> Those Bastards! Why don't they think AT LEAST about how Witchcraft
> ain't Satanic? Witchcraft IS PAGAN!!! They could be marched on from a
> Pagan's Revolution for that!
*scratches head*
*gasps*
Hey! You're RIGHT! They must be wrong about this whole thing! You
know, this just helped me realize, there are STILL unenlightened people
alive TODAY! Why, it really makes me mad, to think about all those..
those.. INCORRECT people out there!!
> >The NPR blurp liinked the murder to "a bizarre vampire role-playing game
> >gone horribly wrong". This was on Morning Edition.
>
> Fuck them. Just Fuck,fuck,fuck THEM!! Those Assholes... Probably NEVER
> even played the game. I think I'll write on their STUPID prejudice
> soon. Aren't they aware that's what is? P R E J U D I C E ! ! ! ! ! !
*slaps hand to side of face*
You mean that those journalists might have REPORTED on this issue
without getting all the facts first? That they might not even be
ROLE-PLAYERS?!? Please, NO! Say that you didn't mean it! All of my
hopeful innocence about the world has now been shattered beyond
repair.. Why, that's it! I'M gonna write them a letter TOO! And I'll
follow your lead! Why, I'll even use the word "fuck" at least FIVE
times!!
> >I don't think it's g oing to be the end of the world. But it's hardly
> >"nothing to worry about", for odpagans or for role-players.
>
> Because of prejudice. We could sue for that you know.
Yeah! And I'll bet we could get gajillions of dollars from them, too!
And then EVERYONE would learn better, and nobody would confuse Paganism
with Satanism EVER again!!
*Sarcasm Mode: OFF*
Chill, my enthusiastic friend. This is stupidity, yes, but it's
wholeheartedly typical. Going on a tirade about it will only waste your
energy, it won't do any good.
Athol-brose has the right idea.. Writing his/her local station (with a
*mature* letter) pointing out their mistakes and correcting them with
pointers to available resources. That's the only way to win the Battle
Against Ignorance -- by example, not by anger.
Blessings, ("Do not come back, or we will spout profanity a second
time!")
_TNX._
--
Stephen F. Eley )-( sfe...@mindspring.com (-) Student Pagan Community
"Sometimes I think we are spaying and neutering the wrong species."
- Melissa Kaplan, on the Iguanas Mailing List
Gary F Higgins
Seeing all this stuff about vampire cults and role-playing, I've
got a question. Do you think this is a bad time to start running a
Vampire LARP?
--
Ryan New Warrior
newa...@juno.com name...@ix.netcom.com
|Goth.Code v2.5 GoHS TJt cLBRs8 PPeE M3 ZGoMeClb C5o a17+ |
|b54 H183 g4L w6T r3P h5(AnPe) s10 k4 Rm SsYn N0494 LusCA |
*who must admit, he has the WORST timing in the world*
Hardrock Llewynyth
Thus saith Gary F Higgins the Unworthy, in the Year of Our Lord 2 Dec 1996 21:05:17 GMT :
> Seeing all this stuff about vampire cults and role-playing, I've
> got a question. Do you think this is a bad time to start running a
> Vampire LARP?
Considering the crap that those who play/run *any* LARP, especially
Vampire ones, get i would say that just about any time is a bad time to
start/join one.
Fuck it. Have fun and screw what anyone else thinks.
Hardrock, who is finding it increasingly difficult to care what all
mindless, cheesehead conformists think or say about him and his
activities.
--
Hardrock Llewynyth, DNRC
hard...@speakeasy.org http://www.speakeasy.org/~hardrock
To be fond of something is better than to merely know it; and to find joy in
it is better than to be fond of it. --Kung Chi'u (Confucious)
David Caudill
Mark Kinney wrote:
<SNIP>
> I may also set up a refutation page on my web site, if anyone could give
> me some pointers to some CARPGa-related pagers to link from it.
> (Additional info pointers never hurt, after all.)
try http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/carpga.htm
*****************************************************************
* David Caudill ---- Pan...@primenet.com *
*F.A.N.G. - Ferret Association of Neverending Glee Shelter/Club *
* Ste 778 3929 Overland *
* Boise, Idaho 83705 *
*****************************************************************
Famous Last Words in Role Playing Games's: #129
"Hah! I'm not dead yet. I still have five hit points."
John Goff
Canticle wrote:
(snip)
>
> LARP has a problem
> in that (at least locally), a lot of the people who play are easy targets
> for a media trying to tarnish the game. I can't speak for other games in
> other cities, but locally, a lot of the players have no jobs (some are
> proud of this fact), dress in a manner than 'regular' society would
> consider disgusting or 'wrong' (I may fit that category at times, but I
> have a job), or have engaged in questionable activities (I can think of a
> few off hand who were involved in bloodletting and the consumption of
> blood a few years back and were interviewed about it).
Call me old-fashioned, but bloodletting and the consumption thereof (and
I am assuming that you are referring to human blood), is a long way from
being considered in anyway "right" by society today. Even religions
that practice that remain low profile. For LARP players to do it as
part of a "game", much less be interviewed about it, is going to
mind-boggling to the average suburbanite. With that kind of activity,
and a willingness to talk openly about it, the media doesn't need to
ambush anyone or slant a story - they will already have all the
ammunition needed for any negative review they want. Especially in
light of the most recent events.
Canticle
: tsrs...@aol.com wrote in article
<19961202192...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
: Canticle wrote:
: Nope. It's not just your area. We've got two "Vampire" LARPs that happen
: every summer and fall here in Lake Geneva, and several of the
participants
: make even me wonder about gaming as a healthy hobby.
*whew* I was beginning to wonder if it was just a local phenomenae or what
:). Seriously though, some people probably SHOULDN'T be in certain kinds
of games, due to their mental state or personal problems. I wouldn't let a
child or someone incapable of dealing with it watch a horror flick, why
would I let someone who is mentally unbalanced pretend to be a
bloodsucker?
: Fortunately, though, the local paper has only run positive feature
stories
: on the LARPs.
Ditto. In fact, MTN (the local TV station, and a remarkably GOOD one) ran
a feature on Hallowe'en at the local goth boozer where the Vampire players
congregate (personally, I wish they wouldn't. I go to the bar to relax,
not to play Vampire). The interviews were remarkably well done....although
the fact that they were directed by one of the Storytellers made things a
LOT easier, as he got sane, rational people to be interviewed and shuttled
the 'questionable' players off into a corner.
: There's that. There's also the problem that some of these media types
: "ambush" their subjects and/or don't bother setting a context for their
: interviewer. There was a poor TSR staffer who ended up on some bit of
: religious programming saying that DRAGON DICE was "black magic" when she
: was actually referring to a specific mechanic in the game.
Yech. I'm a PR guy for our store, and while I'm FAMOUS locally for being
blunt and shooting off my mouth about almost anything, I take particular
care with my words when dealing with the media. I've been interviewed on
CBC Radio about Magic:The Gathering, and have had a few sound bites appear
in the local newspaper, and so far I'm batting 1000 with the media...which
is a small miracle, IMHO.
The media can be a great force of good, as well as evil :).
dav...@erols.com
Mark Kinney wrote:
>
>
> I'm not so sure about this one. I'm already working on a pre-emptive
> letter to the editor about this. Anyone with any tips, let me know,
> please.
>
Damage control wise, I only see one option; point out that Goths,
LARPers and psychos are all feeding from the same mass consciousness
trough, much the same as Catholics, Baptists and Satanists do. To blame
White Wolf-ers, the Daughteres of Edgar Allan Poe and others of their
kin for what a few Anne Rice fans do in Kentucky or Texas is like
blaming Anton Levay for the Spanish Inquisition.
Also, let's keep a *really* low profile for the next few weeks folks.
Deacon Davis
dav...@erols.com
Timothy Toner
In article <01bbe02d.af9be400$1eb2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>,
Canticle <cant...@aratar.mb.ca> wrote:
>LARP has a problem
>in that (at least locally), a lot of the people who play are easy targets
>for a media trying to tarnish the game. I can't speak for other games in
>other cities, but locally, a lot of the players have no jobs (some are
>proud of this fact), dress in a manner than 'regular' society would
>consider disgusting or 'wrong' (I may fit that category at times, but I
>have a job), or have engaged in questionable activities (I can think of a
>few off hand who were involved in bloodletting and the consumption of
>blood a few years back and were interviewed about it).
First, let me say that, as others pointed out already, people are so quick
to blame others for personal faults, that such tragedies become little
more than maudlin "passion plays" of the evils of the modern age.
THat being said, from a gaming point of view THIS is the problem with
LARPs, conceptual-wise. YOu're playing an undead entity that remains
undead only by keeping a low profile. So what do half the players do,
in-character? Act like gits! Dress in black! Dress in period clothes!
Please! What's wrong with a vampire who dressed _normally?!?_ What's
wrong with characters named "Doug," as opposed to Alcestus? The best
stealth games are the ones that the players _really_ get in it, and are
barely noticeable to passer-byers. I've seen fist fights break out after
high decible shouting matches. That's not a stealth game. It's not a
"fun" game. It's just 'boys with toys.'
--
Timothy Toner --------- School Librarian ---------- than...@interaccess.com
"There is a group--how haughtly their eyes! how overbearing their glance!
There is a group whose incisors are swords, whose teeth are knives, devouring
the needy from the earth, and the poor from among men." Proverbs 30:13
Canticle
: John Goff <john...@erols.com> wrote in article
<32A36D...@erols.com>...
: Canticle wrote
: > LARP has a problem
: > in that (at least locally), a lot of the people who play are easy
targets
: > for a media trying to tarnish the game. I can't speak for other games
in
: > other cities, but locally, a lot of the players have no jobs (some are
: > proud of this fact), dress in a manner than 'regular' society would
: > consider disgusting or 'wrong' (I may fit that category at times, but
I
: > have a job), or have engaged in questionable activities (I can think
of a
: > few off hand who were involved in bloodletting and the consumption of
: > blood a few years back and were interviewed about it).
: Call me old-fashioned, but bloodletting and the consumption thereof (and
: I am assuming that you are referring to human blood), is a long way from
: being considered in anyway "right" by society today. Even religions
IO should have been more clear. Their bloodletting and consumption
practises took place a LONG time before they were involved in the LARP. It
was something that predates it by some time, as a matter of fact. I was
pointing in out because people with this kind of background ARE
participating in the LARP, and as a result are wonderfully large targets
for the media, should they do a little digging.
: that practice that remain low profile. For LARP players to do it as
: part of a "game", much less be interviewed about it, is going to
: mind-boggling to the average suburbanite. With that kind of activity,
As I stated, it wasn't part of the game. Seperate incidents, same people.
The problem arrives in the fact that people can seldom seperate people
from activities they once engaged in...politicians are often crucified for
events they engaged in decades before they entered office, which is fairly
foolish, IMHO.
Canticle
: than...@flowbee.interaccess.com (Timothy Toner) wrote in article
: THat being said, from a gaming point of view THIS is the problem with
: LARPs, conceptual-wise. YOu're playing an undead entity that remains
: undead only by keeping a low profile. So what do half the players do,
: in-character? Act like gits! Dress in black! Dress in period clothes!
Heh, no kidding. In the local group, you've got the Gangrel running around
in facepaint and furs (literally), the Brujah in leather jackets and
chains, while some of the Malkavians run around dressing as outlandishly
as possible. Everyone wears black (well, almost).
I kind of liked my character (Spider) and his childe. We were Malkavians,
yes, but no one would ever guess we were vampires. I was the picture of
respectible in the game (Intellectualization will do that) in terms of
portrayal, with a dry sense of humour. My childer was a 16 year old who
ACTED like a 16 year old. And we were absolute monsters.
: Please! What's wrong with a vampire who dressed _normally?!?_ What's
: wrong with characters named "Doug," as opposed to Alcestus? The best
: stealth games are the ones that the players _really_ get in it, and are
: barely noticeable to passer-byers. I've seen fist fights break out
after
: high decible shouting matches. That's not a stealth game. It's not a
: "fun" game. It's just 'boys with toys.'
I'm still convinced that a good 80% of the people playing Live Action
Vampire should set their sights on Live Action Warhammer 40K instead.
Dean
Hardrock Llewynyth wrote:
> Considering the crap that those who play/run *any* LARP, especially
> Vampire ones, get i would say that just about any time is a bad time to
> start/join one.
>
> Fuck it. Have fun and screw what anyone else thinks.
>
> Hardrock, who is finding it increasingly difficult to care what all
> mindless, cheesehead conformists think or say about him and his
> activities.
Let me say this before I begin. I have never been one to buy into the idea that
RPG's are the direct cause of the anti-social behavior of those that play them.
I think that these "vampire cult kids" were probably rotten to begin with and
the vampire stuff was simply their outlet for that rottenness. Failing that they
would have doubtless found another outlet.
That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem to exhibit
more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had experience with. I run
the gaming departments for two conventions and since the advent of the vampire LARP
my club has probably paid out $4000-$5000 in hotel damages directly attributable to
these players. Oddly enough, we have run other LARP events with no problems.
Cyberpunk and Invasion of the body snatchers went entirely without incident several
times. But the vampire players have done things like climbing the walls of the hotel,
breaking plate glass windows, trying to run each other down with their cars, trashing
entire hotel rooms, and even smearing blue cheese salad dressing on windows on
every single floor. Thankfully, we have discovered a way to stop this sort of thing.
We have been forced to make the game organizers sign an agreement making them
financially responsible for the damages their game causes. We also adopted a policy
of kicking every participant of a game out of the hotel if that game causes problems.
My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social behavior, it's
the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take itself and the games WAY
too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a "mindless, cheese-head, conformist"
for espousing this opinion. But let me rebut that by saying this:
Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with white make-up.
Dean
Gray Richard
I cringed when the news reporter said a CLAN of vampires . . . .
Thanks, the dyslexic who can not spell. :)
--
"I long so to be mortal, to feel the suns warmth against my flesh,
to have my children play at my feet. Blood, blood is all that I have and
feel . . . the only way to move on."
_William: An old wandering soul_
********************************************************
* Rich Gray * Art is the souls way *
* urg...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu * of begging release. *
********************************************************
Loki
>Hardrock Llewynyth wrote:
>> Considering the crap that those who play/run *any* LARP, especially
>> Vampire ones, get i would say that just about any time is a bad time to
>> start/join one.
>>
>> Fuck it. Have fun and screw what anyone else thinks.
>>
>> Hardrock, who is finding it increasingly difficult to care what all
>> mindless, cheesehead conformists think or say about him and his
>> activities.
>Let me say this before I begin. I have never been one to buy into the idea that
>RPG's are the direct cause of the anti-social behavior of those that play them.
>I think that these "vampire cult kids" were probably rotten to begin with and
>the vampire stuff was simply their outlet for that rottenness. Failing that they
>would have doubtless found another outlet.
Well, good. So far we're fine.
>That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem
>to exhibit more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had
>experience with. I run the gaming departments for two conventions and since
>the advent of the vampire LARP my club has probably paid out $4000-$5000 in
>hotel damages directly attributable to these players. Oddly enough, we have
>run other LARP events with no problems. Cyberpunk and Invasion of the body
>snatchers went entirely without incident several times. But the vampire
>players have done things like climbing the walls of the hotel, breaking plate
>glass windows, trying to run each other down with their cars, trashing entire
>hotel rooms, and even smearing blue cheese salad dressing on windows on
>every single floor. Thankfully, we have discovered a way to stop this sort
>of thing. We have been forced to make the game organizers sign an agreement
>making them financially responsible for the damages their game causes. We
>also adopted a policy of kicking every participant of a game out of the hotel
>if that game causes problems.
Really? Where are you?
Up until I came to New Brunswick, I was a con organizer in Nova Scotia for
about six years. I helped run several conventions.
Some of these conventions had Mind's Eye games at them. I even helped run one
of these said games.
Now, I did* have some problems with the way they got run. Mostly, I thought
the players desperately needed quality-control.
But nothing like that happened... bleah.
>My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
>behavior, it's the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take
>itself and the games WAY too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a
>"mindless, cheese-head, conformist" for espousing this opinion. But let me
>rebut that by saying this:
>Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with
>white make-up.
Excuse me... What?!
This is a BIG JUMP. For a lot of reasons.
---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
goths. And I've played with plenty.
---> What is the "goth attitude"? If you really followed alt.gothic at all,
you'd realize that there's practically no consensus even among goths about
what being a goth is. (Every so often, somebody [generally a newbie] posts an
open question to the group about it. These questions are generally viewed as
funny rather than useful.)
---> I've never worn white makeup. Not that I wouldn't, but... most goths I
know probably haven't either. I do wear all-black, sometimes, but not always.
Face it, man.
And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist? I'd just
call you prejudiced and stupid.
Loki | once sysop of TWWOL | f3...@unb.ca (preferred)
Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson | now law student | d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~d_flemmi/
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <57v5g0$1...@news.nanospace.com>, qu...@ihot.com (Murgorath
Ultimatum) wrote:
> Fuck them. Just Fuck,fuck,fuck THEM!! Those Assholes... Probably NEVER
> even played the game. I think I'll write on their STUPID prejudice
> soon. Aren't they aware that's what is? P R E J U D I C E ! ! ! ! ! !
Gee, want to get onto TV and try out your PR skills on behalf of all gamers?
pcs$...@altair.selu.edu
In article <01bbe02d.af9be400$1eb2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>, "Canticle" <cant...@aratar.mb.ca> writes:
> : albe...@iglou.com (Mark Kinney) wrote in article
> <E1rvz...@iglou.com>...
> : Canticle (cant...@aratar.mb.ca) wrote:
>
> Here's the major problem.
>
> A lot of LARP players fit the stereotypes of the 'anti-societal menace' in
> more than simple superficial ways. It's easy to laugh at calls for banning
> AD&D or Fantasy RPGs when the people playing the games look more like
> overachievers and 'geeks' than potential psychopaths. LARP has a problem
> in that (at least locally), a lot of the people who play are easy targets
> for a media trying to tarnish the game. I can't speak for other games in
> other cities, but locally, a lot of the players have no jobs (some are
> proud of this fact), dress in a manner than 'regular' society would
> consider disgusting or 'wrong' (I may fit that category at times, but I
> have a job), or have engaged in questionable activities (I can think of a
> few off hand who were involved in bloodletting and the consumption of
> blood a few years back and were interviewed about it). AFAIK, none of
> these people are 'evil' or 'bad'. They just don't fit the profile of
> people who are 'normal', and therefore become easy targets. Unlike 'geeks'
> or 'nerds', a lot of these people can't fall back on the 'But I have a job
> and family, and I do such and such' in order to deflect the negative
> reactions.
>
> All of this can lead to some serious problems if the wrong person gets
> interviewed by the media.
>
> PLAYER: 'Yeah, I believe in vampires. I'm not one myself, but I find that
> playing one allows me to explore the dark side of my soul. My character
> does things I wouldn't."
>
> MEDIA: "Then you would say that you could do things while acting the part
> of a vampire? Would you drink blood? Perhaps someone might be drive to
> kill?"
>
> PLAYER: "No no no..."
>
> Too late at this point, the media has their sound bite '..allows me to
> explore the dark side of my soul. My character does things I wouldn't.'
>
> : I'm not so sure about this one. I'm already working on a pre-emptive
> : letter to the editor about this. Anyone with any tips, let me know,
> : please.
>
> Above all else, remember that Goth DOES NOT EQUAL Vampire Player. There
> are goths who play Vampire:TM, there are goths who could care less.
> Playing Vampire does not make you a goth. I say this because a lot of
> press people are going to no doubt be calling goth/industrial clubs asking
> about the game and that sort of thing, just because its almost easier than
> finding people who play it. And they will try to draw connections.
Indeed. I know several people who play V:TM, and perhaps maybe three of
them could be considered goths. The rest greatly resemble the stereotypical
AD&D types (nerdy overachievers with no social life?) who simply tried a
different game for a change, and liked it. And there have been cases in the
past of people who thought they were vampires and went around drinking blood
for a long time. I remember reading a case study or something about it many
years ago, before V:TM was even written. As long as there have been
Dracula movies, and books and horror stories about vampires, there have been
deranged people out there who couldn't tell themselves from the genuine (and
quite non-existant) article.
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ Jeff Franzmann ~ People are strange,
> ~ Campaign Outfitters Netrep ~ When you're a stranger
> ~ Editor in Chief, CPI ~ People look ugly,
> ~Winnipeg, Manitoba ~ When you're alone...
> ~ CANADA ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Campaign Outfitters Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~campaign
> Canticle Publishing Homepage : http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~canticle
>
>
>
Bridget Farace
bfa...@selu.edu
What good is opening your mind, if in doing so, you close your heart
to your greatest ally in the universe? Is it worth so much to you to
realize that you are naked?
Rick Jones
Loki (f3...@unb.ca) wrote:
> Some of these conventions had Mind's Eye games at them. I even helped run one
> of these said games.
> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
> goths. And I've played with plenty.
Quite true. I've played in 3 LARPS, at 3 seperate locales, and the
stereotypical "Goth in Black" was certain represented at each LARP, but
they were far from the majority (I've seen about 10, all told, and I was
at the International Camarilla Conventon - which had hundreds of hardore
LARPers there).
Most LARPers dressed as their characters would, meaning [in general- I'm
overgeneralizing here] Ventrue and Toreador wore suits and dresses, Brujah
dressed like headbangers, Gangrel wore jeans and jean jackets, Nosferatu
were slobs, and Malkavians dressed anywhere from "Goth" to "Jimmy Buffett
fan."
I do have to say that folks who play Garou are more likely (from what I've
seen) to wear facepaint, as around 1/2 of them have their tribe or auspice
symbol painted on them somewhere. (Which seems very silly, why advertise
to your enemies what tribe you are?)
But, in general, LARPers appear to have *more* fashion sense than the
average "gamer at a con" who wears jeans (or shorts) and goofy tee shirts
- perpetuating the "Fanboy" stereotype of gamers. (Not that there's
anything wrong with that - it's what I wear to most cons.)
--
Rick Jones "I'll say a prayer for him tonight."
ri...@blkbox.com "He's agnostic."
"Then I'll say half a prayer."
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -- Ivanova & Franklin, Babylon 5
Cousin Melanesia Addams
I'd like to register an objection to this inane line
of thought that it's entirely the vampire players
causing the problems. I have been attending
cons for several years now and my group has
been quite active in both LARPing and volunteer
service to our local conventions. Has it occurred to
anyone 'in charge' that it's mundanes dropping in
on the cons and because they aren't wearing Trek
uniforms they are assumed to be goths and/or
vampire players? Or perhaps non-LARPing con geeks
who wear black and enjoy attending cons so they can
do the 'daring' things they don't dare try in the real
world? You might think we goth-types all look alike
and exhibit asocial behavior, but that can be said about
the vast majority of fandom in general.
Perhaps getting over your prejudices and developing a
rapport with your outside LARP organizers would enable
you to have better relations with them and therefore fewer
problems. If our con comms had not reached out to us to
show us how we could better get along in our SF/F community,
we'd probably have similar problems. But the effort must come
from both sides...
Canticle
: Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article <
: That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem
to exhibit
: more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had experience
with. I run
Vampire Player DOES NOT EQUAL Goth. Please, I have to deal with enough
problems from people without having to deal with this stereotype that
Vampire players are all anti-social freaks who love to cause trouble. 90%
of the Troublemakers I've encountered are 'wannabes' or 'trendoids' who
would be better off playing Live Action Warhammer. They pick up on Vampire
because its 'Kewl' and 'Fun', and they are about as far from goth as one
can get.
: My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
behavior, it's
: the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take itself and
the games WAY
: too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a "mindless,
cheese-head, conformist"
: for espousing this opinion. But let me rebut that by saying this:
Nah, you're espousing an opinion. That doesn't make you a cheese head. I
have to ask this though...why do you think so many goths get ticked off at
Vampire players?
Answer, a lot of them give goths a bad name.
: Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with
white make-up.
You've never been to a goth/industrial club, have you?
:
Canticle
: Cousin Melanesia Addams <met...@nwlink.com> wrote in article
<32A4B9...@nwlink.com>...
: I'd like to register an objection to this inane line
: of thought that it's entirely the vampire players
: causing the problems. I have been attending
I don't think that's what people are saying. I think what the problem is
that a few idiots, as usual, are spoiling it for everyone else. In this
case, it's irresponsible Live Action Role Players, or idiots who play
Vampire (i.e. if those kids in the south played Vampire, they qualify as
idiots who play Vampire) combined with a society that refuses to take
responsibility. Everyone wants to find the easy answer, and in this case,
its blaming a game rather than upbringing.
However, reality is this: People WILL blame the game or a subculture. It's
simple. Both sides (gamers, goths) have to look out for their own
interests. In the case of the gamers, one has to realize that there ARE
psychotics who play these games. There are psychotics who are Christian as
well. Psychotics who are Muslim. So on and so forth. Being a gamer does
not automatically mean you aren't capable of stupidities. The key is to
make sure that people realize the GAME isn't responsible. Locally, for
example, I wanted nothing more than to get rid of the bad elements in a
game...for reasons which continue to baffle me, these elements are freely
allowed into the game and allowed to continue with the activities that got
them banned in the first place (one reason I want nothing more to do with
the local group unless its something I can directly take responsibility
for).
Goths are going to get blamed just because they LOOK different. Period.
They LOOK like those 'evil' Vampire players, they are obviously just like
them. That's the perception of the public. Goths have to disassociate the
scene from the game (which isn't all that hard to do)., as the two are NOT
the same. Vampire has a goth (ok, fine, gothpunk, whatever) feel to it,
but then again so do a LOT of things.
: cons for several years now and my group has
: been quite active in both LARPing and volunteer
: service to our local conventions. Has it occurred to
: anyone 'in charge' that it's mundanes dropping in
: on the cons and because they aren't wearing Trek
: uniforms they are assumed to be goths and/or
: vampire players? Or perhaps non-LARPing con geeks
: who wear black and enjoy attending cons so they can
: do the 'daring' things they don't dare try in the real
: world? You might think we goth-types all look alike
: and exhibit asocial behavior, but that can be said about
: the vast majority of fandom in general.
Can't argue with that. The fact is, though, there are people who play the
LARP who simply should not be allowed to do so. They have no idea about
what limitations are, they have no idea where the boundaries are, and when
you try to confront them in a pleasant way about it, they become defensive
and insist that they are doing wrong (despite mounds of complaints against
them). They may even go so far as to claim that by killing their character
it would be like killing them. You see, these people exist, in small
numbers, and they ARE a problem.
J. McGuire
Rick Jones wrote:
> But, in general, LARPers appear to have *more* fashion sense than the
> average "gamer at a con" who wears jeans (or shorts) and goofy tee shirts
> - perpetuating the "Fanboy" stereotype of gamers. (Not that there's
> anything wrong with that - it's what I wear to most cons.)
The problem is that "fanboys" in jeans and T-shirts don't weird out the
mundanes. Leaving the real goths out of this entirely, the
"pseudogoths," as I call them, *DO* weird out the mundanes, and they
weird them bad. "Ms. Soccer Mom," who is a lot like Tipper Gore, just
doesn't deal well with someone wearing all black, with pale makeup,
fangs, various body parts pierced, and a drugged-out expression.
When you're dealing with mundanes, it's the trouble-making, anti-social
pseudogoth that you've been planning to toss out of the game who is
going to get noticed and remembered, and the dozen folks in the suits or
jeans are going to be forgotten if they get noticed at all. Especially
if you're dealing with the mundane media -- they're looking for
sensationalism. If they wanted to interview someone in a suit, they
could have stayed back at the studio.
Another part of the problem is that one of the central themes of VtM is
isolation and alienation. This tends to make it attractive to people on
the emotional fringes, out where the Prozac bus doesn't run. They're not
strange and borderline psychotic people because they play Vampire --
they play Vampire because it appeals to their pre-existing mental twist.
But they *are* socially dysfunctional at best, and sociopathic at worst.
It only takes one to give a large group a bad name. I've seen the
results of a single drunk SF fan trashing an entire floor of a
hotel...make that three or four out of several dozen LARP players, and
have them dress in the same unconventional, distinctive, and somewhat
disturbing costume as the rest of the group, and I guarantee you that
the whole group is going to get the blame that the handful deserves.
I suspect quite a good case could be made for the game being a Very Good
Thing, in that it helps some of these mentally unstable, socially
isolated people build or rebuild their connections with the rest of
society. It very well might give them a route back to social normality,
instead of drifting off further and further alone as they otherwise
would until they made the papers in some spectacular way. These five
screwed-up kids would almost certainly have killed someone _anyway_.
From what I've read, they were very, very seriously messed up. How many
other kids who were once like them are now sane, functioning,
more-or-less normal members of society, but would have gone down the
very same tragic path as the five "vampires" were it not for the
socialization of playing in a RP game?
It's sort of like saying "such-and-such an experimental medicine killed
the patient" when it was his underlying disease that killed him -- and
the medicine cured many other patients who would otherwise have died.
Loki
>I do have to say that folks who play Garou are more likely (from what I've
>seen) to wear facepaint, as around 1/2 of them have their tribe or auspice
>symbol painted on them somewhere. (Which seems very silly, why advertise
>to your enemies what tribe you are?)
Simple. To scare them. :)
Garou tactics are often not concerned with subtlety. And you gotta admit, if
it worked for the Picts, it can work for you. :)
>But, in general, LARPers appear to have *more* fashion sense than the
>average "gamer at a con" who wears jeans (or shorts) and goofy tee shirts
>- perpetuating the "Fanboy" stereotype of gamers. (Not that there's
>anything wrong with that - it's what I wear to most cons.)
My suspicion is that this is true of LARPers in general. Many costume-freak
gamers often wind up in LARP organizations; it's one of the obvious benefits
or drawbacks to live role-playing (oh god how I hate that phrase) is that it
involves more costume work. So people who like* costume work often get
involved in it. And oddly enough, such people often have more fashion sense
than the typical fanboy. :)
[alt.gothic stripped as I seem, anyway, to have stopped talking about gothic
things]
Dean
Loki wrote:
> >That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem
> >to exhibit more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had
> >experience with. I run the gaming departments for two conventions and since
> >the advent of the vampire LARP my club has probably paid out $4000-$5000 in
> >hotel damages directly attributable to these players. Oddly enough, we have
> >run other LARP events with no problems. Cyberpunk and Invasion of the body
> >snatchers went entirely without incident several times. But the vampire
> >players have done things like climbing the walls of the hotel, breaking plate
> >glass windows, trying to run each other down with their cars, trashing entire
> >hotel rooms, and even smearing blue cheese salad dressing on windows on
> >every single floor. Thankfully, we have discovered a way to stop this sort
> >of thing. We have been forced to make the game organizers sign an agreement
> >making them financially responsible for the damages their game causes. We
> >also adopted a policy of kicking every participant of a game out of the hotel
> >if that game causes problems.
>
> Really? Where are you?
>
Tampa, Fl.
> >My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
> >behavior, it's the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take
> >itself and the games WAY too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a
> >"mindless, cheese-head, conformist" for espousing this opinion. But let me
> >rebut that by saying this:
>
> >Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with
> >white make-up.
>
> Excuse me... What?!
>
> This is a BIG JUMP. For a lot of reasons.
>
> ---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
> goths. And I've played with plenty.
True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
>
> ---> What is the "goth attitude"? If you really followed alt.gothic at all,
> you'd realize that there's practically no consensus even among goths about
> what being a goth is. (Every so often, somebody [generally a newbie] posts an
> open question to the group about it. These questions are generally viewed as
> funny rather than useful.)
I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool. In fact,
far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply demonstrates
what an uncool slob you are."
>
> ---> I've never worn white makeup. Not that I wouldn't, but... most goths I
> know probably haven't either. I do wear all-black, sometimes, but not always.
> Face it, man.
Perhaps, but go to a game they run or a club they hang out in and that is all
will see.
>
> And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist? I'd just
> call you prejudiced and stupid.
Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth attitude)
Dean
Dean
Cousin Melanesia Addams wrote:
>
> I'd like to register an objection to this inane line
> of thought that it's entirely the vampire players
> causing the problems. I have been attending
> been quite active in both LARPing and volunteer
> service to our local conventions. Has it occurred to
> anyone 'in charge' that it's mundanes dropping in
> on the cons and because they aren't wearing Trek
> uniforms they are assumed to be goths and/or
> vampire players? Or perhaps non-LARPing con geeks
> who wear black and enjoy attending cons so they can
> do the 'daring' things they don't dare try in the real
> world? You might think we goth-types all look alike
> and exhibit asocial behavior, but that can be said about
> the vast majority of fandom in general.
How much cash has you con comm had to shell out because
of your games? If the answer to both of these questions
"none" then that explains your good relationship with them.
How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
Dean
Dean
Canticle wrote:
> Vampire Player DOES NOT EQUAL Goth. Please, I have to deal with enough
> problems from people without having to deal with this stereotype that
> Vampire players are all anti-social freaks who love to cause trouble. 90%
> of the Troublemakers I've encountered are 'wannabes' or 'trendoids' who
> would be better off playing Live Action Warhammer. They pick up on Vampire
> because its 'Kewl' and 'Fun', and they are about as far from goth as one
> can get.
> Perhaps not. But invariably it is the vampire LARPs that cause the trouble and the
damage. Once again, we have had a great many kinds of live games at our con, (I have
even run a couple myself) but it vampires that are the problem. CONSISTENTLY.
Dean
J. McGuire
Note: I just read over my last post, and I realized that I had been
rather unclear about something. This section:
> Another part of the problem is that one of the central themes of VtM is
> isolation and alienation. This tends to make it attractive to people on
> the emotional fringes, out where the Prozac bus doesn't run. They're not
> strange and borderline psychotic people because they play Vampire --
> they play Vampire because it appeals to their pre-existing mental twist.
> But they *are* socially dysfunctional at best, and sociopathic at worst.
....is not meant to imply that all, or even many, Vampire (tabletop or
live) players are isolated, alienated fringers. My point was meant to be
that such people, when they exist, are more attracted to VtM than to
more, well, ah, cheerful games. Therefore, they make up a higher
percentage of Vampire players than they do of, say, Traveller players.
In other words, the "trouble waiting to happen" people are a subset of
Vampire (LARP or otherwise) gamers, and afaik a fairly small one.
Just wanted to clear that up before anyone read it wrong!
Brandi Weed
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 06:29:25 -0600, "Canticle" <cant...@aratar.mb.ca>
wrote:
>: than...@flowbee.interaccess.com (Timothy Toner) wrote in article
>
>: THat being said, from a gaming point of view THIS is the problem with
>: LARPs, conceptual-wise. YOu're playing an undead entity that remains
>: undead only by keeping a low profile. So what do half the players do,
>: in-character? Act like gits! Dress in black! Dress in period clothes!
>
>Heh, no kidding. In the local group, you've got the Gangrel running around
>in facepaint and furs (literally), the Brujah in leather jackets and
>chains, while some of the Malkavians run around dressing as outlandishly
>as possible. Everyone wears black (well, almost).
[alt.gothic removed from Newsgroups:]
Question here-- how the heck do you keep a low profile when you're
playing a coyote-ugly Nosferatu? Or are they assumed to be cloaking
themselves when walking among humans?
--
Brandi Weed
bra...@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us
http://www.wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us/~brandi/
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <19961202192...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tsrs...@aol.com wrote:
> Cantile wrote:
>
> > A lot of LARP players fit the stereotypes of the 'anti-societal
> > menace' in more than simple superficial ways. It's easy to laugh at
> > calls for banning AD&D or Fantasy RPGs when the people playing the
> > games look more like overachievers and 'geeks' than potential
> > psychopaths. LARP has a problem in that (at least locally), a lot of
> > the people who play are easy targets for a media trying to tarnish
> > the game.
>
> Nope. It's not just your area. We've got two "Vampire" LARPs that happen
> every summer and fall here in Lake Geneva, and several of the participants
> make even me wonder about gaming as a healthy hobby.
I am very sad to say that a similar situation exists here. While many of
the LARP participants are excruciatingly ordinary people, a large
proportion (maybe about a third) can most charitably be described as
"marginally socialized" (I mean even worse than an ordinary nerd). I
dropped out of any active participation because I did not want to expose
my son to some of the other "recreational" activities that some of these
folks preferred. Then there's Sarah, an avid LARPer who actually believes
she *is* a vampire from time to time and dropped her first yung'n at the
ripe old age of 16 (16 by a month, that is).
> Fortunately, though, the local paper has only run positive feature stories
> on the LARPs.
Our local media doesn't even know they exist. However, Cornell has kicked
one group off campus for underage alcohol possession violations.
atlas...@aol.com
I find this whole thing ironic, as I look back on the days when Mark R*H
was writing VAMPIRE. One of the big selling points he saw was that he was
aware of a lot of people out there who were really convinced that they ARE
vampires, and he figured the game would go over big with that crowd of
vampire wannabes.
Well, hey, maybe he was right. Maybe he was also right in expecting that
any coverage like this could only increase the sales of the game. Even
book-burners have to buy the books first.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[O] John A. Nephew Atlas...@aol.com
[0] President, Atlas Games Cust. Service (612) 638-0098
[O] Atlas Web Page: http://www.winternet.com/~burford
Necros
Canticle wrote:
> I'm still convinced that a good 80% of the people playing Live Action
> Vampire should set their sights on Live Action Warhammer 40K instead.
Now there is a live action game I could sink my teeth into. Just give me
a suit of Terminator armor and an assault cannon.
--
http://www.dragonstorm.com
Drain a shifter,
Necros
Gruamach
Canticle <cant...@aratar.mb.ca> wrote in article
<01bbe02d.af9be400$1eb2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>...
> Above all else, remember that Goth DOES NOT EQUAL Vampire Player. There
> are goths who play Vampire:TM, there are goths who could care less.
> Playing Vampire does not make you a goth. I say this because a lot of
> press people are going to no doubt be calling goth/industrial clubs
asking
> about the game and that sort of thing, just because its almost easier
than
> finding people who play it. And they will try to draw connections.
>
Most of my friends (both goth and non-goth) play LARP regularly. I
probably would, but work Sat. nights, so don't have the time (and it's not
worth the effort of MAKING the time). BUT!
Ok, the "but" part.... When asked about it, be it at a club, coffeehouse,
or what-have-you, I am now ready and armed with a answer:
"What? 'Vampire?' Is that a computer game or something? Or are you
talking about that silly Tom Cruise movie?"
Graumach
J. McGuire
Necros wrote:
> Canticle wrote:
> > I'm still convinced that a good 80% of the people playing Live Action
> > Vampire should set their sights on Live Action Warhammer 40K instead.
>
> Now there is a live action game I could sink my teeth into. Just give me
> a suit of Terminator armor and an assault cannon.
Yeah.... <dreamy look> Do you think we can find me one of those big
tinsuits in size "short and plump"?
Loki
>Loki wrote:
>> >That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem
>> >to exhibit more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had
>> >experience with. I run the gaming departments for two conventions and since
>> >the advent of the vampire LARP my club has probably paid out $4000-$5000 in
>> >hotel damages directly attributable to these players. Oddly enough, we have
>> >run other LARP events with no problems. Cyberpunk and Invasion of the body
>> >snatchers went entirely without incident several times. But the vampire
>> >players have done things like climbing the walls of the hotel, breaking plate
>> >glass windows, trying to run each other down with their cars, trashing entire
>> >hotel rooms, and even smearing blue cheese salad dressing on windows on
>> >every single floor. Thankfully, we have discovered a way to stop this sort
>> >of thing. We have been forced to make the game organizers sign an agreement
>> >making them financially responsible for the damages their game causes. We
>> >also adopted a policy of kicking every participant of a game out of the hotel
>> >if that game causes problems.
>> Really? Where are you?
>Tampa, Fl.
Well, for purposes of comparison, I'm currently in Fredericton, New Brunswick
but my con-organizing experience generally comes from Halifax, Nova Scotia...
same coast, a few hundred miles north :)
>> >My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
>> >behavior, it's the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take
>> >itself and the games WAY too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a
>> >"mindless, cheese-head, conformist" for espousing this opinion. But let me
>> >rebut that by saying this:
>>
>> >Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with
>> >white make-up.
>>
>> Excuse me... What?!
>>
>> This is a BIG JUMP. For a lot of reasons.
>>
>> ---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
>> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
>> goths. And I've played with plenty.
>True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
In my experience, about 5 to 10 percent are. Surely it can't be this
different. How do you recognize what a goth is?
>> ---> What is the "goth attitude"? If you really followed alt.gothic at all,
>> you'd realize that there's practically no consensus even among goths about
>> what being a goth is. (Every so often, somebody [generally a newbie] posts an
>> open question to the group about it. These questions are generally viewed as
>> funny rather than useful.)
>I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool. In
>fact, far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply
>demonstrates what an uncool slob you are."
Did you think of this definition before or after determining that all the
LARPers in your area were goths?
>> ---> I've never worn white makeup. Not that I wouldn't, but... most goths I
>> know probably haven't either. I do wear all-black, sometimes, but not always.
>> Face it, man.
>Perhaps, but go to a game they run or a club they hang out in and that is all
>will see.
This is what I in fact do when I have spare time. I am* a goth, and a Mind's
Eye player. (I just don't have a lot of spare time... funny how law school
keeps ya busy. :)
>> And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist? I'd just
>> call you prejudiced and stupid.
>Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth attitude)
...! I'm not calling you that because I think you're saying I'm "uncool"
(whatever that means), but because you don't seem to have any idea of what
you're talking about. You're generalizing about a group based on a number of
people who don't even seem to belong to the group.
Loki
Well, actually, on the concoms I've served on, pretty much every single group
of fen has caused problems at one time or another. However, also on the
concoms I've served on, we've actually had security* who have watched out for
developing problems, and put a stop to them. Wow, what an idea, eh?
Around here, it's usually SCA who get a bad rep. I don't know why, especially
since most concom types are in* the Society (myself included).
Pounce! (Nate Morse)
In article <32A522...@stonehill.org>, Dean <de...@stonehill.org> wrote:
> How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
> shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
None, since they're almost all volunteered for Security and running the
Anime room?
Nate, Art Show Head for Technicon 14: SF&F return to the New River Valley!
--
Nate Morse, aka "Pounce" | /\_/\ | "She was a dual-gammed, mono-
Pangean Reunification Front|_( ^.^ )_| torso, fully automatic perpetual-
"Time IS on our side." | >`-'< | motion heartbreaking machine."
---------------------------+-Pounce!-+--NOW! at fur...@nrv.net---
Dean
Loki wrote:
> >> ---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
> >> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
> >> goths. And I've played with plenty.
> >True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
>
> In my experience, about 5 to 10 percent are. Surely it can't be this
> different. How do you recognize what a goth is?
If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
The ones who dress in all black with white make up adorned with ankhs
or spikes or both. The ones who call me an "establishment dickhead" who
"just doesn't get the genre" when I try to tell them that destroying
hotel property just isn't as cool as they think it is. The ones that seem
to comprise 90% of the vampire LARPs I have had the misfortune having
to keep in line at cons.
> >I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool. In
> >fact, far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply
> >demonstrates what an uncool slob you are."
>
> Did you think of this definition before or after determining that all the
> LARPers in your area were goths?
This was after my third year of chasing them around all night at cons.
> >> And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist? I'd just
> >> call you prejudiced and stupid.
> >Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth attitude)
>
> ...! I'm not calling you that because I think you're saying I'm "uncool"
> (whatever that means), but because you don't seem to have any idea of what
> you're talking about. You're generalizing about a group based on a number of
> people who don't even seem to belong to the group.
So your basically saying "the goths who cause trouble aren't really goths".
Have I got that right? Do you honestly think that REAL goths are all pure
as the wind driven snow?
Dean
Dean
Loki wrote:
> >How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
> >shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
>
> Well, actually, on the concoms I've served on, pretty much every single group
> of fen has caused problems at one time or another. However, also on the
> concoms I've served on, we've actually had security* who have watched out for
> developing problems, and put a stop to them. Wow, what an idea, eh?
Oh come now. My con does have security (rather alot of it actually). So
much so that every group except the vampire LARPers have gotten the message.
Dean
victoria gwaed
In article <01bbe181.59e48580$19b2...@canticle.mbnet.mb.ca>, so
sayeth cant...@aratar.mb.ca...
>its blaming a game rather than upbringing.
Actually two parent sof the kids have been arrested recently. One's
mother for trying to seduce a 14 year old who was in the "vamp clan"
saying that she wanted to be his eternal bride and join the group; and
another's father who shot at a car he thought his daughter was in.
Real class acts.
>there are people who play the
>LARP who simply should not be allowed to do so. They have no idea
about
>what limitations are, they have no idea where the boundaries are
There are some people like that in Nashville who go to the club and try
to involve people who aren't playing the game in their little delusion.
They often go to the point of threatening us because we don't keep
their stupid masqurade. They almost started fights on several
occasions. Personally, I don't need that kind of behaviour.
victoria gwaed
lilitua...@2die4.com
DnA Dvorkin
Different places, different problems ... The LARPers in Denver for the
last few yearas have been a pretty peaceful bunch, though I'm afraid that
with the influx of jock-types into Werewolf gaming that may be about to
change. We haven't had any really serious security problems since the
late Seventies when Gor and Dorsai fandom were active -- I mean, you've
still got the idiots, but they're individual idiots instead of organized
idiots in a group. But those jock-boys who think they're cool and hip and
daring for playing an advanced form of freeze-tag in hotel hallways bother
me. Sure as hell not the type of people I ever expected to see in gaming,
back when I was a gamergeek.
But I have to say, I've been part of the con scene in Denver for twenty
years, and I have _never_ seen anyone in a Star Fleet uniform get stupid
and cause trouble. Star Trek fans, the extreme ones, may be off in their
own world sometimes, but they're a peaceful bunch. And, for that matter,
apply as much of the above as you like to us goths, too. <1/2 g>
--
Daniel Dvorkin
Osiris
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Dean wrote:
> How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
> shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
*snap* All of us, Mothaf#**^#@&^@!! Every few years, the Vulcans just
gotta rage out! Bring on the Klingons! It's time to kick some assssss!
*blink* Whoa... sorry about that. Time to put that communicator away.
It's bringing back weird memories.
"If I were Human, I believe my response would be, 'Go to Hell...'
If I were Human." -Captain Spock (ST6: The Apology)
== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
Now the time has come for us to mount our donkeys and leave...
for you are beginning to bore our clearly deranged minds.
Loki
In article <32A5A...@stonehill.org> Dean <De...@stonehill.org> writes:
>Loki wrote:
>> >How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
>> >shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
>> group of fen has caused problems at one time or another. However, also on
>> the concoms I've served on, we've actually had security* who have watched
>> out for developing problems, and put a stop to them. Wow, what an idea, eh?
>Oh come now. My con does have security (rather alot of it actually). So
>much so that every group except the vampire LARPers have gotten the message.
If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
Loki
>Loki wrote:
>> >> ---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
>> >> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
>> >> goths. And I've played with plenty.
>> >True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
>> In my experience, about 5 to 10 percent are. Surely it can't be this
>> different. How do you recognize what a goth is?
>If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth. The
>ones who dress in all black with white make up adorned with ankhs or spikes
>or both. The ones who call me an "establishment dickhead" who "just doesn't
>get the genre" when I try to tell them that destroying hotel property just
>isn't as cool as they think it is. The ones that seem to comprise 90% of the
>vampire LARPs I have had the misfortune having to keep in line at cons.
I've never met anybody who was adorned in ankhs, goth or otherwise. Far as I
know, that's an exclusive White Wolf thing anyway. White Wolf didn't invent
gothdom, you know... :)
>> >I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool. In
>> >fact, far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply
>> >demonstrates what an uncool slob you are."
>> Did you think of this definition before or after determining that all the
>> LARPers in your area were goths?
>This was after my third year of chasing them around all night at cons.
That's not an answer to my question.
>> >> And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist?
>> >> I'd just call you prejudiced and stupid.
>> >Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth
>> >attitude)
>> ...! I'm not calling you that because I think you're saying I'm "uncool"
>> (whatever that means), but because you don't seem to have any idea of
>> what you're talking about. You're generalizing about a group based on a
>> number of people who don't even seem to belong to the group.
>So your basically saying "the goths who cause trouble aren't really goths".
>Have I got that right? Do you honestly think that REAL goths are all pure
>as the wind driven snow?
No. I'm saying that most Vampire LARPers aren't goths. Like most goths, I have
plenty of problems dealing with other goths. :)
Your basic argument goes something like this.
A) I've had lots of problems dealing with Vampire LARPers despite my own best
efforts.
B) Vampire LARPers are goths.
C) Therefore, goths are hard to deal with.
I'm arguing against point B. Perhaps many of the Vampire LARPers you have
encountered have given you grief. In that case, sympathies. Most of the
Vampire LARPers I've encountered have also given me grief, although not nearly
as much as you have apparently suffered. However, please don't consider them
to be goths because most of them aren't.
bruce...@aol.com
In article <32A4DC...@pobox.com>, Steve Barr <steve...@pobox.com>
writes:
>New! When subjected to intense heat, especially
>offensive pages are designed to detach from the
>book's spine and waft in front of TV cameras
Dear sir: I believe I hurt myself laughing while reading this post. Please
desist immediately.
:-)
--
Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> Bruce...@aol.com
http://www.kenosis.com/ - new work by Steve Stirling & George Effing-
er, Christian/libertarian ideas, and more
You need a Snack Satchel Slapping Stick!
John Rudd
> Necros wrote:
> > Canticle wrote:
> > > I'm still convinced that a good 80% of the people playing Live Action
> > > Vampire should set their sights on Live Action Warhammer 40K instead.
> >
> > Now there is a live action game I could sink my teeth into. Just give me
> > a suit of Terminator armor and an assault cannon.
>
No problem.. where can I get some bone swords? Meet me in an abandoned
building? :-)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jr...@cygnus.com (ex- kz...@email.sjsu.edu)
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Spammers: I charge you for my time, disk, and bandwidth if you post off-
topic solicitations for money in the groups I read. $500/post/group.
Loki
In article <dvorkin-0412...@news.minot.com> dvo...@minot.com (DnA
Dvorkin) writes:
>In article <32A5A...@stonehill.org>, Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote:
>> Loki wrote:
>> > >How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
>> > >shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
>> > Well, actually, on the concoms I've served on, pretty much every single
>> > group of fen has caused problems at one time or another. However, also on
>> > the concoms I've served on, we've actually had security* who have watched
>> > out for developing problems, and put a stop to them. Wow, what an idea,
>> > eh?
>> Oh come now. My con does have security (rather alot of it actually). So
>> much so that every group except the vampire LARPers have gotten the message.
>Different places, different problems ... The LARPers in Denver for the last
>few yearas have been a pretty peaceful bunch, though I'm afraid that with the
>influx of jock-types into Werewolf gaming that may be about to change. We
>haven't had any really serious security problems since the late Seventies
>when Gor and Dorsai fandom were active -- I mean, you've still got the
>idiots, but they're individual idiots instead of organized idiots in a group.
>But those jock-boys who think they're cool and hip and daring for playing an
>advanced form of freeze-tag in hotel hallways bother me. Sure as hell not
>the type of people I ever expected to see in gaming, back when I was a
>gamergeek.
Yeah. LARPing attracts an odd crowd. I don't know. Being a gamer is a lot
different than it used to be... I still love it but over the last twelve years
or so that I've been gaming regularly, it's changed a lot. Some people I've
played with and who've been great wouldn't have been interested back when I
was in HS, and there's a lot of the other way around too: the people I used to
game with are nothing like the people I game with these days, really.
Maybe that's a reflection on me, though. I've changed a lot, too...
>But I have to say, I've been part of the con scene in Denver for twenty
>years, and I have _never_ seen anyone in a Star Fleet uniform get stupid
>and cause trouble. Star Trek fans, the extreme ones, may be off in their
>own world sometimes, but they're a peaceful bunch. And, for that matter,
>apply as much of the above as you like to us goths, too. <1/2 g>
I've been part of the con scene in the Maritimes for about sixteen years,
which is pretty good as I'm 26. :) However, I've seen everybody* cause
trouble. Don't get me wrong, though... I'm enough of a Trekfan to actually
read the r.a.st.m and so on groups, but I do remember Halcon 10.
Just about the only group who didn't cause trouble at Halcon 10 were goths.
There were none there. :) (I wasn't a goth back then... although I didn't
cause trouble, either. I was too busy not getting any sleep. :)
StrangeGirl
catlady wrote:
> ok, for anyone that might remember, Boskone used to be held in Boston up
> until about 10 years ago. this was long before any of the LARPs, although
> there were a few live D&Der's. the reason Boskone left Boston for
> Springfield,MA (& more recently Danvers) is because there isn't a hotel in
> Boston that will allow them in.
> my feeling is that Boskone failed to prevent unregistered people going into
> the cons, but be that as it may, the fen trashed the hotels. no goths, no
> LARPer's, mostly Trekies, Blake 7, Dr.Who & comics fans.
> so making generalities about goths, LARPs or whatever doesn't wash. almost
> any con will attract a few people that have no social skills, bad apples &
> children (of any age group) that go wild without supervision.
An excellent example of the above would be some of the early antics of
one Harlan Ellison...an author of some note....
It's not just the attendees, often it is guests/presenters and vendors
acting like stupid/crazy teenagers, as well. Sometimes even staffers.
Don't blame it *all* on the Gothy types. There is a long-standing
history, one might even say tradition, of doing stupid things and
pulling elaborate or destructive pranks at cons. Check your history....
StrangeGirl (geeking out again)
--
GothCode v2.5a GoCD5$Th2GD4NA3Sp2$ TFePJt(An) cNR(P)m7 PeSaR M3
ZGoPuTeiFaCl!! C6om a26- b55TD H166 G8! w9L r7EBP h5TAn s6 k7
Rn SmNn N0595 LusCA --didn't that _hurt_?--Hey! come visit my
boring webpage!http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4532
Michael Burton
Canticle (cant...@aratar.mb.ca) wrote:
<cut long, drooling-yet-infinitely-on-topic-rant>
: shoved aside in favour of the one 'freak' in the bunch. After all 'VAMPIRE
: MURDERS!' is much more of a sell out for a newspaper or local TV station
: than 'MIDDLE CLASS UPBRINGING BREEDS MURDERERS!'.
actually, I think i'd pay more for a paper with headline number 2...
a lot more.
little, stupid mikey (not to be confused with the one who isn't in your
killfile).
Morgoth
In the case of Star Trek Fans, maybe what is needed is to have
some of the Star Trekies act as a sort of security, especially
those that are dressed in Security Uniforms.
It might give the hotel security a break and also give the wrong
doers less reason to get out of hand if they know some of their
own are there to help them deal with their problem..
SPC Mike Adams, AK ARNG
Fr. Morgoth, Cyberabbey of St. Cyril
LtCmdr Morgoth Gusiq, Chief Medical Officer USS Taliesin
So you want kids? Please fill out this 200 page form in triplicate.
Morgoth
Email or post it.. So I can better understand what you are all
talking about.. Are we talking people who think they are
Vampyres? Or people who are a bit to far into Rple Playing and
are having a hard time distinguishing reality from fiction? Or
are we just talking a bunch of rple players, who just happen to
pick an "odd" think to roleplay..
SPC Mike Adams, AK ARNG
Fr. Morgoth, Cyberabbey of St. Cyril
LtCmdr Morgoth Gusiq, Chief Medical Officer USS Taliesin
So I am an Alien, that does not mean I am not an adult (grin).
Morgoth
Does anyone remember the live action game called "Killer"..
Canticle
: Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article
<32A5AC...@stonehill.org>...
: If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
So if it looks like a gamer, smells like a gamer and acts like a gamer, it
is a gamer? Thanks, I try to avoid stupid stereotypes. Most goths don't
play Vampire, at least the ones I know. Most Vampire players I know aren't
goths. They dress in black, wear white makeup and think goth is 'kewl' but
thats as far as it goes.
: The ones who dress in all black with white make up adorned with ankhs
: or spikes or both. The ones who call me an "establishment dickhead" who
: "just doesn't get the genre" when I try to tell them that destroying
: hotel property just isn't as cool as they think it is. The ones that
seem
: to comprise 90% of the vampire LARPs I have had the misfortune having
: to keep in line at cons.
Sounds more like garden variety idiots, period. 'Establishment Dickhead'
isn't even a very original form of insult.
: This was after my third year of chasing them around all night at cons.
Wow, someone who knows everything about a subculture based on his
experience at Gaming Conventions. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Jeff Franzmann ~ People are strange,
~ Campaign Outfitters Netrep ~ When you're a stranger
~ Editor in Chief, CPI ~ People look ugly,
~Winnipeg, Manitoba ~ When you're alone...
~ CANADA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Campaign Outfitters Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~campaign
Canticle Publishing Homepage : http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~canticle
catlady
>Loki wrote:
>
>> >How many guys in Star Trek costumes break windows and get into
>> >shouting matches and trash hotel rooms?
>>
>> Well, actually, on the concoms I've served on, pretty much every single group
>> of fen has caused problems at one time or another. However, also on the
>> concoms I've served on, we've actually had security* who have watched out for
>> developing problems, and put a stop to them. Wow, what an idea, eh?
>
>Oh come now. My con does have security (rather alot of it actually). So
>much so that every group except the vampire LARPers have gotten the message.
ok, for anyone that might remember, Boskone used to be held in Boston up
until about 10 years ago. this was long before any of the LARPs, although
there were a few live D&Der's. the reason Boskone left Boston for
Springfield,MA (& more recently Danvers) is because there isn't a hotel in
Boston that will allow them in.
my feeling is that Boskone failed to prevent unregistered people going into
the cons, but be that as it may, the fen trashed the hotels. no goths, no
LARPer's, mostly Trekies, Blake 7, Dr.Who & comics fans.
so making generalities about goths, LARPs or whatever doesn't wash. almost
any con will attract a few people that have no social skills, bad apples &
children (of any age group) that go wild without supervision. ever been to a
plumber's convention? they wreak the place too.
Loki
In article <32A600...@sjm.infi.net> StrangeGirl <rem...@sjm.infi.net> writes:
>catlady wrote:
>> ok, for anyone that might remember, Boskone used to be held in Boston up
>> until about 10 years ago. this was long before any of the LARPs, although
>> there were a few live D&Der's. the reason Boskone left Boston for
>> Springfield,MA (& more recently Danvers) is because there isn't a hotel in
>> Boston that will allow them in.
>> my feeling is that Boskone failed to prevent unregistered people going into
>> the cons, but be that as it may, the fen trashed the hotels. no goths, no
>> LARPer's, mostly Trekies, Blake 7, Dr.Who & comics fans.
>> so making generalities about goths, LARPs or whatever doesn't wash. almost
>> any con will attract a few people that have no social skills, bad apples &
>> children (of any age group) that go wild without supervision.
>An excellent example of the above would be some of the early antics of
>one Harlan Ellison...an author of some note....
>It's not just the attendees, often it is guests/presenters and vendors
>acting like stupid/crazy teenagers, as well. Sometimes even staffers.
Well, I actually met a guy who was at the last BosKone in Boston. He was one
of the trashers, I think*... although he didn't admit to it. But he did seem
to know a little too much to have been completely innocent. :)
He said that one of the things they did was that they got hundreds of fannish
stickers, and wallpapered the elevator doors shut with them. So that when the
doors tried to open, they couldn't... well, not for a little while. The doors
eventually won, and the stickers splattered all through the elevators' works.
The hotel was unimpressed. :)
I think I met this guy at RMS' panel. So does that mean that all hackers are
wild party maniacs who destroy hotels? I Think Not. :)
Loki
In article <32ab80d4...@news.ucdavis.edu> bra...@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us
(Brandi Weed) writes:
>On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 06:29:25 -0600, "Canticle" <cant...@aratar.mb.ca>
>wrote:
>>: than...@flowbee.interaccess.com (Timothy Toner) wrote in article
>>
>>: THat being said, from a gaming point of view THIS is the problem with
>>: LARPs, conceptual-wise. YOu're playing an undead entity that remains
>>: undead only by keeping a low profile. So what do half the players do,
>>: in-character? Act like gits! Dress in black! Dress in period clothes!
>>
>>Heh, no kidding. In the local group, you've got the Gangrel running around
>>in facepaint and furs (literally), the Brujah in leather jackets and
>>chains, while some of the Malkavians run around dressing as outlandishly
>>as possible. Everyone wears black (well, almost).
>Question here-- how the heck do you keep a low profile when you're
>playing a coyote-ugly Nosferatu? Or are they assumed to be cloaking
>themselves when walking among humans?
This brings up another personal gripe of mine.
Very few Mind's Eye players play Nosferatu. They're a fun clan to play, and
they often get played in tabletop. But nobody wants to put the effort into the
latex.
And the shock value is immense. They look ugly. Really* ugly. So if you're
playing one, you get to see some serious reactions. On the few occasions when
I was with somebody playing one (I've never played one, tabletop or live -
difficult Clan for me to wrap my head around), it's been fun.
So many people play Brujah for shock. Bah.
Rick Mc Leod of the Clan Mac Leod
In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.961204...@dwarf.nome.net>,
Morgoth <mor...@nome.net> wrote:
>Does anyone remember the live action game called "Killer"..
Yes. And remember how it's been banned from all kinds of public
establishments where it made Steve Jackson some $$$...
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
! Rick Mc Leod - Adventurer, Attorney-in-Training, and part-time Dark Lord !
! drke...@ix.netcom.com !
! Mitakuye Oyasin. !
StrangeGirl
just for clarification, that comment about fandom in general having a
history/tradition of stupid pranks was sorta global...not Boston
specific.I've seen some dooozies in my 10 years at con staffing...
And only a few were convention attendees.
StrangeGirl (I'm being redundant again;))
Larry D. Hols
Hallo,
Blackjack wrote:
>
>
> Well, I could start an argument on that point, but it's been going on
> between alt.pagan and alt.satanism for years. Suffice it to say that
> the two are not mutually exclusive.
Well, techinically, yes, they are. See Satan belongs in the Christian
cosmology and no other. So, to believe in Satan, one must buy into the
Christian cosmology. Pagans don't buy into that, although they have
been known to accept Christ as another deity in the universe -- even
then, they didn't accept the Christian cosmology whole parcel.
Larry
Karen J. Cravens
In article <f339j.100...@unb.ca>, f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
>Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
Okay, I'm not a goth, a LARPer, OR a regular con-goer, and I keep
meaning to killfile this thread, but...
You got security in EVERY room? All the time? Don't the people
who're actually renting those rooms object? ("All right, you can
stay here. But you're sleeping in the chair. *I* paid for the
room, *I* get the bed.")
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.net
Home of the Phoenyx List of New Roleplaying Releases
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/rpglist.html
Karen J. Cravens
In article <19961204191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
bruce...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <32A4DC...@pobox.com>, Steve Barr <steve...@pobox.com>
>writes:
>
>>New! When subjected to intense heat, especially
>>offensive pages are designed to detach from the
>>book's spine and waft in front of TV cameras
>
>Dear sir: I believe I hurt myself laughing while reading this post. Please
>desist immediately.
The next question, of course, is how is Terry going to
incorporate this feature into Hyperbooks?
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Keeper of the Phoenyx Play-by-Email Roleplaying Listserver
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/ majo...@phoenyx.net
Posby
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Dean wrote:
> Loki wrote:
>
>
> > >That being said, I have to note that live gamers of the goth sort seem
> > >to exhibit more anti-social behavior than any other gamers I have had
> > >experience with. I run the gaming departments for two conventions and since
> > >the advent of the vampire LARP my club has probably paid out $4000-$5000 in
> > >hotel damages directly attributable to these players. Oddly enough, we have
> > >run other LARP events with no problems. Cyberpunk and Invasion of the body
> > >snatchers went entirely without incident several times. But the vampire
> > >players have done things like climbing the walls of the hotel, breaking plate
> > >glass windows, trying to run each other down with their cars, trashing entire
> > >hotel rooms, and even smearing blue cheese salad dressing on windows on
> > >every single floor. Thankfully, we have discovered a way to stop this sort
> > >of thing. We have been forced to make the game organizers sign an agreement
> > >making them financially responsible for the damages their game causes. We
> > >also adopted a policy of kicking every participant of a game out of the hotel
> > >if that game causes problems.
> >
> > Really? Where are you?
> >
>
> Tampa, Fl.
>
>
> > >My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
> > >behavior, it's the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take
> > >itself and the games WAY too seriously. Now I will doubtlessly be called a
> > >"mindless, cheese-head, conformist" for espousing this opinion. But let me
> > >rebut that by saying this:
> >
> > >Never have have I seen so many "non-conformists" wearing all black with
> > >white make-up.
> >
> > Excuse me... What?!
> >
> > This is a BIG JUMP. For a lot of reasons.
> >
> > ---> Not all vampire players are goths. In fact, I'd guess the majority of
> > them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with were not
> > goths. And I've played with plenty.
>
> True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
>
> >
> > ---> What is the "goth attitude"? If you really followed alt.gothic at all,
> > you'd realize that there's practically no consensus even among goths about
> > what being a goth is. (Every so often, somebody [generally a newbie] posts an
> > open question to the group about it. These questions are generally viewed as
> > funny rather than useful.)
>
> I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool. In fact,
> far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply demonstrates
> what an uncool slob you are."
> >
> > ---> I've never worn white makeup. Not that I wouldn't, but... most goths I
> > know probably haven't either. I do wear all-black, sometimes, but not always.
> > Face it, man.
>
> Perhaps, but go to a game they run or a club they hang out in and that is all
> will see.
>
> >
> > And what's more... why do you expect goths to call you a conformist? I'd just
> > call you prejudiced and stupid.
>
> Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth attitude)
>
> Dean
>
ugh just because someone wears whiteface when
playing a GAME hardly means they are goth. I've run across a few of this
sort in clubs and they seem to exist purely to try and freak people out
and act like general menaces. Swooping in with an air of supiriority just
because they are involved in this land of make-believe...
I don't think it's the goth aspect of it that makes these Vampire
role players so annoying, I think it's the VAMPIRE aspect of it... I have
known goths involved in other games who are just generally cool people to
be around who don't let their game world take over their lives and don't
pull stupid pranks just for the sake of being an idiot (or some undead
being of 200 years of age ;) )
Sure, there are a lot of goths who like to dress up and put on the
make-up to go out to the club. I used to do that weekly for a while.
But I wore colors more than I wore black (as do a small, but wonderful
portion of the goth community.)
blah. migraine and tylenol 3 make me babble.
* * * * * . *
"She got from somewhere stones with eyes * . *
And plants that gave out screams and sighs." . ^ .
-Edward Gorey * . ^
. * ^ ... . * ^ . * ...... po...@aracnet.com
*
Katherine
Dean wrote:
> So your basically saying "the goths who cause trouble aren't really goths".
> Have I got that right? Do you honestly think that REAL goths are all pure
> as the wind driven snow?
Of course not. (sorry to intruded here, Loki) Only a very small percentage of goths play
LARP games. You're generalising about a genre which is constantly redefined, based on
your **very small** insight into the subculture..or whatever you want to call it.
Kath.
P.S Real goths would have their Purity Test (TM) score on their goth membership
card--perhaps you should check them next time.
Katherine
Jeff A Dee
majority of
>> >> them are NOT goths. Certainly most of the ones I've played with
were not
>> >> goths. And I've played with plenty.
>> >True, but in my experience, most Vampire-LARPers are.
>>
>> different. How do you recognize what a goth is?
>
>or spikes or both. The ones who call me an "establishment dickhead"
who
>"just doesn't get the genre" when I try to tell them that destroying
>hotel property just isn't as cool as they think it is. The ones that
seem
>to comprise 90% of the vampire LARPs I have had the misfortune having
>to keep in line at cons.
>
cool. In
>> >fact, far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool
simply
>> >demonstrates what an uncool slob you are."
>>
all the
>> LARPers in your area were goths?
>
>
conformist? I'd just
>> >> call you prejudiced and stupid.
>> >Precisely the response I would expect. (see above summation of goth
attitude)
>>
"uncool"
>> (whatever that means), but because you don't seem to have any idea
of what
>> you're talking about. You're generalizing about a group based on a
number of
>> people who don't even seem to belong to the group.
>
goths".
>Have I got that right? Do you honestly think that REAL goths are all pure
>as the wind driven snow?
>
I gotta agree. All these objections to calling anything that looks like a goth
a goth sound eerily like Christians objecting when Jim Jones is identified as a
Christian. Sheesh people, just admit that not everyone who's a member of your
particular subculture is necessarily wonderful. They may set an example that
you dislike, but that doesn't mean they're not one of you. Make the best of it
instead of making a lame attempt to disown them.
ANTIX
Terry Austin
Morgoth <mor...@nome.net> wrote:
>In the case of Star Trek Fans, maybe what is needed is to have
>some of the Star Trekies act as a sort of security, especially
>those that are dressed in Security Uniforms.
Now, how many people do *you* know who'd volunteer to be red shirts?
You *know* how likely they are to live to the end of the episode.
---------------------------------
Terry Austin, Companion of Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
Garden of the Plantmaster, by Robert J. Kuntz,
one of the founders of TSR
AVAILABLE NOW
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
---------------------------------
Mark Kinney
Cousin Melanesia Addams (met...@nwlink.com) wrote:
: I'd like to register an objection to this inane line
: of thought that it's entirely the vampire players
: causing the problems. I have been attending
: cons for several years now and my group has
: been quite active in both LARPing and volunteer
: service to our local conventions. Has it occurred to
: anyone 'in charge' that it's mundanes dropping in
I had the opportunity to watch several Camarilla-run games when I visited
Portland, OR, some months ago. They were well run, low key events, and
are shining examples of how these should be run.
Unfortunately, the local LARPers (non Cam, I might add) have something of
a problem, and may well have LARPs banned from RiverCon (Louisville, KY).
On at least one occasion I know of during the last con, a "sniper" was
about to take a shot at the prince, so one player screamed "DOWN!" and
shoved the prince down, and in the process scared a bunch of mundanes.
Add on that the people running this game were swamped by players (two or
three people running it, I think, and they got nearly 200 players). Add
in running up and down the halls yelling, making threats, and so on.
Plus, LARP *was* banned at ConCave (Park City KY) last year when some
Louisville LARPers allegedly sent letters threatening the lives of Bowling
Green LARPers to the con organizer.
The group decided to hold a meeting to get a gaming con organized
(supposedly in response to the Rivercon incident). The talk, of course,
went immediately to the LARP, and when some friends and I tried to raise
the points of staying low-key and such, the usual response was "But what
if you're in character?"
And this isn't about Goths, this is about irresponsible children who
should be weeded out of these games, but usually aren't until it's too
late. And I don't care how old they are, if they act like this, I
consider them irresponsible children. Judging from the other responses,
they're more common than any of us would like. :-(
For those keeping up with the rest of the thread, the letter to the editor
went out today, and I plan to have the page set up by next week at the
latest.
--
Mark Kinney | albe...@iglou.com | http://www.iglou.com/nations/
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority."
-- The Doctor, "Doctor Who: The Wheel In Space"
Carl Perkins
In article <pLjpy0C/kUqY...@southwind.net>, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) writes...
}In article <19961204191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
}bruce...@aol.com wrote:
}>In article <32A4DC...@pobox.com>, Steve Barr <steve...@pobox.com>
}>writes:
}>
}>>New! When subjected to intense heat, especially
}>>offensive pages are designed to detach from the
}>>book's spine and waft in front of TV cameras
}>
}>Dear sir: I believe I hurt myself laughing while reading this post. Please
}>desist immediately.
}
}The next question, of course, is how is Terry going to
}incorporate this feature into Hyperbooks?
}
}--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Heat sensors in the PDA. WHen the temperature goes over a preset level it
knows it is being burned so the Hyperbook software starts loudly spewing
Satanist propaganda (although it might sound a bit tinny through speakers tiny
enough to fit on a PDA) and displaying inverted crosses, pentograms, swastikas
and the D&D logo on its screen.
--- Carl
Kasumi
Loki wrote:
> If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
> Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
It's hard to prevent someone from doing damage inside a hotel room, you
can't put security into people's private rooms. Not to mention you can't
have someone stationed in visual range of every square inch of the hotel.
If you did you'd have more security than paying members.
Kasumi
Loki
In article <pHjpy0C/kgER...@southwind.net> pho...@southwind.net (Karen J.
Cravens) writes:
>In article <f339j.100...@unb.ca>, f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
>>Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
>Okay, I'm not a goth, a LARPer, OR a regular con-goer, and I keep
>meaning to killfile this thread, but...
>You got security in EVERY room? All the time? Don't the people
>who're actually renting those rooms object? ("All right, you can
>stay here. But you're sleeping in the chair. *I* paid for the
>room, *I* get the bed.")
:) Well, no. However, we do get security in the hallway.
Wrecking a room makes a lot of noise. Usually, the security can hear it. :)
Dean
Canticle wrote:
>
> : Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article
> <32A5AC...@stonehill.org>...
>
> : If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
>
> So if it looks like a gamer, smells like a gamer and acts like a gamer, it
> is a gamer? Thanks, I try to avoid stupid stereotypes. Most goths don't
> play Vampire, at least the ones I know. Most Vampire players I know aren't
> goths. They dress in black, wear white makeup and think goth is 'kewl' but
> thats as far as it goes.
>
Basically the feedback I'm getting is this. Nobody is a goth except people
that a goth says is a goth. There is no definition for your group you have
in common except the clubs you go to and the fact that you claim the title
goth.
> : This was after my third year of chasing them around all night at cons.
>
> Wow, someone who knows everything about a subculture based on his
> experience at Gaming Conventions. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
I never claimed to know everything about gothdom. What little I do know
from my experience in addition to what I have learned on this group in the
past few days make me ill inclined to learn any more at all about this
pretentious, self-important little sub-culture whose only common thread
seems to be the desire to exclude others from membership in it.
Dean
That is all I have to say on this thread.
Loki
>I gotta agree. All these objections to calling anything that looks like a
>goth a goth sound eerily like Christians objecting when Jim Jones is
>identified as a Christian. Sheesh people, just admit that not everyone who's
>a member of your particular subculture is necessarily wonderful. They may
>set an example that you dislike, but that doesn't mean they're not one of
>you. Make the best of it instead of making a lame attempt to disown them.
Well, to me, they sound rather more like hippies objecting when Manson is
called one.
Look at him. He looks like a hippie. Would you call him one?
the Albatross
Dean wrote:
> If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
Hey, so long as we are in the buisness of blind prejudice--
If it looks like an establishment dickhead and talks like an
establishment dickhead, it probably is one...
> This was after my third year of chasing them around all night at cons.
<laugh>
You know that desire to mother gamers usually has to do with traumas in
the oral stage... tell me, do you know when you're mother quit breast
feeding you?
> Have I got that right? Do you honestly think that REAL goths are all pure
> as the wind driven snow?
Been washed in the blood of the lamb, baby...
You too can be clean!
But first, you must thrash a hotel room, have sex with a man, summon
Bloody Mary and let her suck you off, begin doing Heroin (all goths do
Heroin), then as ultimate high sacrifice- burn all your gaming
manuals...
Also every full moon you must bathe in an ice cold lake and chant the
holy words... "I will get a life, I will get a life, I will get a
life..."
Albatross
One Fell Swoop
Alex Williams
In article <f339j.100...@unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
>Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
Having been on ConSec more than a couple times (hey, tiny guys don't
get seen as Sec and make great front-end recon for troublemakers) I'd
like to point out that Sec can't be everywhere at once and it takes
remarkably little time for a group of 4 - 6 people to do significant
amounts of damage to a hotel room. By the time you hear about it and
get there, the majority's gone, likely the culprits fled.
I was in attendance here in Atlanta at the Con where LARPers threw
things off the central overlook area of a hotel; we're not talking
rolls of TP, we're talking brass and ceramic flowerpots and small
sofas. Sec just couldn't stop a group of rampaging idiots, there
weren't enough Sec in multiple teleporting bodies to do so.
Between the Magic players littering the halls and the White Wolf
LARPers, even the quiet and respectable Cons in the area are getting a
bad rap.
--
Alexander Williams {zan...@photobooks.com ||Member: Evil Geniuses
tha...@alf.dec.com} ||For a Better Tomorrow
============================================// => Charter Member <=
Lovecraft
Canticle wrote:
*snip*
> would be better off playing Live Action Warhammer. They pick up on Vampire
> because its 'Kewl' and 'Fun', and they are about as far from goth as one
> can get. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*snip*
And why would you suggest playing a game? To explore our darker side
and experience the tragedy of being a vampire? No. I play because it's
fun. At least I used to play. Haven't been able to find a group I like
playing with for awhile now.
--
---------------------------------------------
"God hates a coward" Batman
Lovecraft
---------------------------------------------
C.K. Derrick
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Dean wrote:
((assorted drivel about VTM deleted))
>
> I never claimed to know everything about gothdom. What little I do know
> from my experience in addition to what I have learned on this group in the
> past few days make me ill inclined to learn any more at all about this
> pretentious, self-important little sub-culture whose only common thread
> seems to be the desire to exclude others from membership in it.
>
> Dean
>
> That is all I have to say on this thread.
>
>
Actually, the only group I think that we have actively been trying to
exclude is Vampire players. Why? Well, as I see it, it is like this;
Gothic is primarily a musical genre. Vampire players are primarily a bunch
of wankers 90% of whom believe that Trent Reznor is Gothic. And that, to
be blunt, is why I want to exclude Vampire players. They dress like Goths,
claim to be Goth, but are about to Goth as a man who can't identify "Eine
Kleine Nachtmusik" is to classical. The only common thread, in our
subculture, is the music, and the vampire players don't share it. Thus,
they are out. Or do you want to argure that they know the music, too?
Hint: Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails, as well as both crow
soundtracks, don't qualify as Goth.
La vie est plus belle quand on l'ecrit soi meme.
C.K. Derrick-...@icarus.cc.uic.edu
Osiris
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Dean wrote:
[qvack, qvack, qvack]
> That is all I have to say on this thread.
Well, thank goodness for that. Worse than any troll is the truly ignorant.
== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
Now go away, or we shall say "Nee" to you again.
victoria gwaed
In article <32A46D...@stonehill.org>, so sayeth
De...@stonehill.org...
>My experience tells me that it's not LARPing that supports anti-social
>behavior, it's
>the goth part of it. The whole goth attitude tends to take itself and
>the games WAY
>too seriously.
DO NOT Blame gothic for the attitude/actions of these assholes. It's
not gothics that do these things its psychodork-geekgoths that think
gothic is just the vampire version of punk. These people are NOT NOT
NOT gothic! They may say they are, they may even BELIEVE they are, but
they are WRONG. Real gothics have more sense than that. We may be a lot
of things, but at least we are intelligent, and if we are going to do
something like that, we are sly enough not to get caught. Not to
mention be a bit more creative than that.
Your appropriate label goes way beyond cheesehead, your stance way beyond
misguided.
victoria gwaed
(who has gone to more than her fair share of cons and knows what she is
talking about!)
creepy girl
In article <58578t$a...@scooby.beloit.edu>,
Little C <boy...@stu.beloit.edu> wrote:
>As far as I know, LARP is an acronym for "Live Action Role Playing." In
>Milwaukee, at least, there is a "Vampire" group that gets together in malls,
^^^^^
*boggles* In MALLS??? Can that be any more the worst possible
setting for a live-action game of Vampire that I have ever heard?!?
*giggles insanely* Oh my.
-eloquence-
--
--------little kitten-goth, part&parcel of elly'n'boo,
creator and keeper of net.goth.pix, head inquisitor of the
d*ckentologists, co-founder & queen divine of a.g.CRs
http://arch.housing.wisc.edu/~elly/---------
Lovecraft
In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.961204...@dwarf.nome.net>,
Morgoth <mor...@nome.net> wrote:
>Does anyone remember the live action game called "Killer"..
Still own a copy. letterbombs! Joy!
--
---------------------------------------------
"Happy sunshine, green grass growing
miling faces, pearlies showing
Carefree loving, rosey red
to think I let that go to my head" Ugly Mustard
Lovecraft
---------------------------------------------
victoria gwaed
In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.961204...@dwarf.nome.net>,
so sayeth mor...@nome.net...
>
>Does anyone remember the live action game called "Killer"..
>
victoria gwaed
Neil Barnes
Loki (f3...@unb.ca) wrote:
:
: Well, to me, they sound rather more like hippies objecting when Manson is
:
: Look at him. He looks like a hippie. Would you call him one?
*thinks*
Yeah, probably. He's the dark side of the hippie force. The flip side of
the coin etc. etc. etc.
neil
Neil Barnes
Canticle (cant...@aratar.mb.ca) wrote:
: : Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article
: <32A5AC...@stonehill.org>...
:
:
: So if it looks like a gamer, smells like a gamer and acts like a gamer, it
: is a gamer?
Yes. Quite indubitably.
neil
Loki
In article <586rib$a...@netnews.alf.dec.com> tha...@uxtlaser.alf.dec.com (Alex
Williams) writes:
>In article <f339j.100...@unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>If your con has security, then how were they able to wreck hotel rooms?
>>Security's supposed to prevent* that kind of thing from happening.
>Having been on ConSec more than a couple times (hey, tiny guys don't get seen
>as Sec and make great front-end recon for troublemakers) I'd like to point
>out that Sec can't be everywhere at once and it takes remarkably little time
>for a group of 4 - 6 people to do significant amounts of damage to a hotel
>room. By the time you hear about it and get there, the majority's gone,
>likely the culprits fled.
Just to make a point. I've been on security more than a few times myself. (And
a few of those times were particularly nervewracking occasions where had not
nearly enough security...)
>I was in attendance here in Atlanta at the Con where LARPers threw things off
>the central overlook area of a hotel; we're not talking rolls of TP, we're
>talking brass and ceramic flowerpots and small sofas. Sec just couldn't stop
>a group of rampaging idiots, there weren't enough Sec in multiple teleporting
>bodies to do so.
I know. That's what *hotel* security is for. Generally con staff works as an
advance warning system for the hotel staff, and sometimes police: the con
staff watches out for problems, lets the pros deal with it.
The only kinds of problems con staff usually deals with is stuff like people
who haven't bought their tickets...
>Between the Magic players littering the halls and the White Wolf LARPers,
>even the quiet and respectable Cons in the area are getting a bad rap.
Magic players littering the halls?
All the cons around here are supplying little magic-gaming-tables in the games
room. I haven't seen any of them in the halls.
But this is really heading for alt.fandom.cons soon... :)
Loki
In article <E1y9y...@fsa.bris.ac.uk> nb4...@ncs.bris.ac.uk (Neil Barnes)
writes:
>*thinks*
Ah. I see. So The Presidents of the United States of America [cheesy grunge
band] are on the dark side of the suit force because of the video "Lump"?
Bryan J. Maloney
> I sum up the goth attitude as follows: "I am cool. What I like is cool.
In fact,
> far too cool for the likes of you. Not thinking I'm cool simply demonstrates
> what an uncool slob you are."
Nah, that's a punk. There've been punks long before the current "goth"
fad arrived.
Bryan J. Maloney
I should have said, when I used "punk", I meant it in its more common
case--the "punk kid" or "dumb young punk", not the subculture currently
inhabited by 30-year-olds...
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <586tve$8...@news.vanderbilt.edu>, lilitua...@2die4.com
(victoria gwaed) wrote:
No, he means "Killer", the one that was actually published. Steve Jackson
Games put it out. Kind of a cute idea, but the rulebook was completely
superfluous.
S.F. Eley
Canticle wrote:
>
> : Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article <32A5AC...@stonehill.org>...
> : If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
>
> So if it looks like a gamer, smells like a gamer and acts like a gamer, it
> is a gamer?
Depends. Does it game?
(Bad example there, man.) >8->
Blessings,
_TNX._
--
Stephen F. Eley )-( sfe...@mindspring.com (-) Student Pagan Community
"Sometimes I think we are spaying and neutering the wrong species."
- Melissa Kaplan, on the Iguanas Mailing List
S.F. Eley
creepy girl wrote:
> ^^^^^
> *boggles* In MALLS??? Can that be any more the worst possible
> setting for a live-action game of Vampire that I have ever heard?!?
> *giggles insanely* Oh my.
Actually, it makes sense to me. The Masquerade, you know. They're
LARP'ing in the REAL Masquerade, in the middle of the rest of society.
(Not that I'd do it myself.. Just saying the concept seems workable.)
J. McGuire
catlady wrote:
> ok, for anyone that might remember, Boskone used to be held in Boston up
> until about 10 years ago. this was long before any of the LARPs, although
> there were a few live D&Der's. the reason Boskone left Boston for
> Springfield,MA (& more recently Danvers) is because there isn't a hotel in
> Boston that will allow them in.
For what it's worth, Boskone is held in Framingham, and has been for a
number of years. The same people seemed to be quite capable of getting
in-city hotel space (and the Hynes center) for Worldcon, though after
Noreascon 3 I'd say they have some other serious problems with running a
Worldcon. (and they got the bid for _another_ one?)
> my feeling is that Boskone failed to prevent unregistered people going into
> the cons, but be that as it may, the fen trashed the hotels. no goths, no
> LARPer's, mostly Trekies, Blake 7, Dr.Who & comics fans.
'Unregistered people' are at least as likely to be fringers and party
leeches as they are to be fen, if not more so.
I wasn't there for the hotel trashing...wrong state at the time...but I
*have* been at hotels that were, if not quite trashed, rather badly
abused: Once by a football team, once by (so help me) the Shriners. In
both cases, the fen were blamed. Football players are Sports Figures.
Shriners are Do-Gooders. Fen are some kinda weirdos...must be their
fault.
> so making generalities about goths, LARPs or whatever doesn't wash. almost
> any con will attract a few people that have no social skills, bad apples &
> children (of any age group) that go wild without supervision. ever been to a
> plumber's convention? they wreck the place too.
-- Jean
Wintertree Software | Remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
"If not me, then who? If not now, then when?"
J. McGuire
We did it at Penn State a couple of times. It got banned for being
disruptive. People would NOT follow the rules about not assassinating
their targets in classes. It only takes a couple of professors who, for
some reason, didn't seem to like having their lectures interrupted by
someone barging in and getting into a shouting match with one of their
students, to get the game banned.
Loki
In article <32A726...@pop.mindspring.com> "S.F. Eley"
<sfe...@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>Canticle wrote:
>> : Dean <De...@stonehill.org> wrote in article
>> : <32A5AC...@stonehill.org>...
>> : If it looks like a goth and it talks like goth it is probably a goth.
>> So if it looks like a gamer, smells like a gamer and acts like a gamer,
>> it is a gamer?
>Depends. Does it game?
>(Bad example there, man.) >8->
Very. The difference is, of course, that there's a clear definition of
"gamer." Gamers are those people who game. Simple defs make argumentation
very, very dull. :)
However, goths are not defined around an activity. So a better comparison
might be to other subcultures, like punks, mods, hippies, metalheads and so
on: sure, you can tell a metalhead when you meet one, but what is* a metalhead
really? :)