Alternity = Dead Horse?
Art Wendorf
>>Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will chain a new
flagship line to a dead horse.<<
While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is everyone
calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as usual?
---
Art Wendorf
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's
warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo.
AWen...@satx.rr.com | http://home.satx.rr.com/artshideout/
Robin Lim
Art Wendorf <AWEN...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rkz54.1179$Ry2....@typhoon2.austin.rr.com...
> Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote
> >>Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will chain
a new
> flagship line to a dead horse.<<
>
> While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is
everyone
> calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as
usual?
>
However, comparatively speaking, Alternity is not a smash hit by any stretch
of the imagination, and WOTC has a habit of abandoning underperforming
product lines. It seems inconceivable that SW is going to be shackled to
such a system.
Rob
Doug Berry
<AWEN...@satx.rr.com> found stone tablets, which when translated
read:
>While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is everyone
>calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as usual?
Well, IMHO, Alternity wasn't a very good game, and support for
the line seemed spotty at best.
I imagine that a big part of the lack of support was the upheaval
of the WotC buyout, but it left the game hanging.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add
your distinctive setting and background to our own. |
Resistance is futile."
Sidhain
Lets See
DarkMatter
StarDrive along with a Handful of modules set theirin
Various Technical manuals:Dataware,Arms and Equipment
Mindwalker Book
a Expanded FX book do out first of next Year
Tangents
Starcraft Alternity (presolicited in several catalogs)
Hmm Undersupported? No
Less supported than D&D
Maybe, but remember WOTC has not been trying to flood the market like TSR of old.
Wayne Shaw
>Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote
>>>Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will chain a new
>flagship line to a dead horse.<<
>
>While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is everyone
>calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as usual?
Chronic pessimism or wishful thinking on some people's part, I expect.
Eric Tolle
> However, comparatively speaking, Alternity is not a smash hit by any stretch
> of the imagination, and WOTC has a habit of abandoning underperforming
> product lines. It seems inconceivable that SW is going to be shackled to
> such a system.
Well, you're in luck. I just overheard that TSR will not be using
Alternity, they will in fact be buying a system used from another
popular movie franchise.
That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
Happy?
;')
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
folded, spindled, mutilated, and used to make funky children's
party hats.
Robin Lim
Doug Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:385acbe1...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:15:51 GMT, "Art Wendorf"
everyone
> >calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as
usual?
>
> the line seemed spotty at best.
Support initially was quite good, but its tapered off in the past while.
But then, support for nearly all their games has been drastically scaled
back since the bad old TSR days. A good thing, IMHO.
> I imagine that a big part of the lack of support was the upheaval
> of the WotC buyout, but it left the game hanging.
Less to do with that, I think, than committing resources towards D&D 3E
(where all their best people are), Pokemon (the role-playing game AND the
card game), and Star Wars (obviously people had to work on the proposal).
In the end, a company can only do so much.
Rob
SD Anderson
> Less supported than D&D
> Maybe, but remember WOTC has not been trying to flood the market
> like TSR of old.
Besides most of us have seen TSR in undersupport mode for many
of it's lines. Alternity doesn't fit that mold at all.
D&D 3e as a universal system is still theory at this point.
The Star Wars license is BIG money. I do not see Hasbro gambling
that license on an untested set of rules when a TESTED set of
rules is available, with staff on hand who know the system.
3e SW means pulling the people who know the 3e system best from
the 3e release project despite the very high importance of
finishing hte release of 3e.
Hasbro needs *A* functioning SWRPG out by date X. Alternity SW
can meet Date X without seriously troubling TSR's release
schedule. 3e SW probably can't meet Date X period and even if it
could, would disrupt their own schedule for D&D 3e to do so.
3e SW ain't gonna happen til SW 2e at best.
David Crowe
: Robin Lim wrote:
: > However, comparatively speaking, Alternity is not a smash hit by any stretch
: > of the imagination, and WOTC has a habit of abandoning underperforming
: > product lines. It seems inconceivable that SW is going to be shackled to
: > such a system.
: Well, you're in luck. I just overheard that TSR will not be using
: Alternity, they will in fact be buying a system used from another
: popular movie franchise.
: That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
: Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
: Happy?
: ;')
Hey, they could always use the Indiana Jones Adventure Game mechanics. Or
those from either of the Buck Rogers games...
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"I guess justice comes before pastries."
-Umi Ryuzaki
Michael T. Richter
>> chain a new flagship line to a dead horse.
> While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why
> is everyone calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I
> miss something as usual?
You missed Robin Lim elevating his taste to universal truth. Lim hates
Alternity. I suspect he was raped by a gang of Alternity gamers in his
childhood (that would be yesterday). As a result he seems devoted to
trumpeting the failure of the game over and over and over again.
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
"get a life. its a plastic box with wires in it."
-- Nadia Mizner <nad...@onthenet.com.au> (in private correspondence)
Robin Lim
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
news:fTN54.548$3m1...@198.235.216.4...
> Art Wendorf <AWEN...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:rkz54.1179$Ry2....@typhoon2.austin.rr.com...
> >> Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will
> >> chain a new flagship line to a dead horse.
>
> > While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why
> > is everyone calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I
> > miss something as usual?
>
> You missed Robin Lim elevating his taste to universal truth. Lim hates
> Alternity. I suspect he was raped by a gang of Alternity gamers in his
> childhood (that would be yesterday). As a result he seems devoted to
> trumpeting the failure of the game over and over and over again.
Here we see the infamous hyperbole of usenet at work. I am not stating a
universal truth, I am making a prediction. I do not hate Alternity, I
simply think it isn't that good a game. Regardless of the game's quality, I
don't think it will be used as the basis of a new Star Wars game, which is a
different issue entirely. If Star Wars WAS going to use the Alternity
system, don't you think they would announce it NOW? Maybe throw out a few
tidbits on the web, so Alternity sales can start moving NOW?
Regardless of all those matters, the astute might note that Alternity has a
grand total of TWO announced products in the upcoming year. I think we can
expect a few more adventures and supplements for Dark Matter, but I don't
see them announcing another campaign setting, or contracting any new
products for 2001. Whatever they've contracted for in 1999 will of course,
be published.
Rob
Sock Monkey
wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:15:51 GMT, "Art Wendorf" <AWEN...@satx.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote
>>>>Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will chain a new
>>flagship line to a dead horse.<<
>>
>>While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is everyone
>>calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as usual?
>
>Chronic pessimism or wishful thinking on some people's part, I expect.
"Because it's T$R. It's the "MAN" baby! That's why I wish, ah, er,
know it will fail." :-P
I always like these "I hate the big RPG companies" rants. Seems about
time for a White Wolf rant to begin...
sspiroff
wrote:
> Well, you're in luck. I just overheard that TSR will not be using
> Alternity, they will in fact be buying a system used from another
> popular movie franchise.
>
> That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
Eric, can you point us to where you found this information? I know a
lot of people who are waiting for just this announcement.
Cheers,
Steven
--
Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums
Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)
Allister Huggins
>
> Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
> news:fTN54.548$3m1...@198.235.216.4...
> > Art Wendorf <AWEN...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> > > is everyone calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I
> > > miss something as usual?
> >
> > You missed Robin Lim elevating his taste to universal truth. Lim hates
> > Alternity. I suspect he was raped by a gang of Alternity gamers in his
<snip>
> Regardless of all those matters, the astute might note that Alternity has a
> grand total of TWO announced products in the upcoming year. I think we can
Hmm? Where are you getting this information. Checking
http://www.wizards.com/catalog/welcome.asp I see 6 game products plus a
novel released under the Alternity line in the first 4 months of 2000. 2
for the DM setting, 2 for the core line and 2 plus a novel for the SD
line. Also, I know they are playtesting a Warships product and Gamma
World one-shot for next year as well.
> expect a few more adventures and supplements for Dark Matter, but I don't
> see them announcing another campaign setting, or contracting any new
Given that DnD only has 1 campaign setting itself, this doesn't say
much.
> products for 2001. Whatever they've contracted for in 1999 will of course,
*Shrug*, can you tell me what D&D products are going to be released in
2001?
Allister H.
Michael T. Richter
news:rpO54.8275$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>> You missed Robin Lim elevating his taste to universal truth. Lim
>> hates Alternity. I suspect he was raped by a gang of Alternity
>> seems devoted to trumpeting the failure of the game over and over
>> and over again.
> Here we see the infamous hyperbole of usenet at work.
Hyperbole like: "Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely
WOTC will chain a new flagship line to a dead horse" you mean? Grammar
problems aside, it is interesting that you're calling a product line which
has just put out two releases in the last month a "dead horse".
> I do not hate Alternity, I simply think it isn't that good a game.
A "dead horse" to be precise. And for not hating it, you're spending an
awful lot of effort to convince everyone that it is bad and dead.
Robin Lim
Allister Huggins <alhu...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38580801...@home.com...
>
> Hmm? Where are you getting this information. Checking
> http://www.wizards.com/catalog/welcome.asp I see 6 game products plus a
> novel released under the Alternity line in the first 4 months of 2000. 2
> for the DM setting, 2 for the core line and 2 plus a novel for the SD
> line. Also, I know they are playtesting a Warships product and Gamma
> World one-shot for next year as well.
Looked in the wrong place. I apologize for spreading such rumors now.
That being said, I've probably overstated the possibility of Alternity's
demise. Got a little carried away with Alternity-bashing there, as
sometimes happens. However, I still don't see Star Wars using the Alternity
system, which is what started this whole argument in the first place.
That being said, let me give a short list of what I don't like about
Alternity, just to show people I'm not slamming it from an emotional basis.
Also, unlike a lot of people who slam games, I actually OWN Alternity, and
I've nearly run Alternity in the past (Alternity in the Exile universe).
1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills. I don't like this because its
hard to incorporate game settings with lots of cybertech and biotech, as I
sometimes like to do.
2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution. See above.
3) Non open-ended stat system. See above.
4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
5) A lot of skills have special cases and caveats when it comes to task
resolution; slows things down when you're learning to play.
6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
7) Three types of damage really necessary?
8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
rules.
That's about the short list of things I don't like. I can live with items
4-8, but 1-3 are really, really hard to work around for the sorts of
campaigns I'm interested in, which explore transhuman and posthuman themes.
The present cybertech system and the present range of cybertech just isn't
broad enough to appeal to the crazed munchkin toy collector in me, having
cut my teeth on Shadowrun and all. What I'm looking for is a system that
puts no limits on human enhancement, yet makes sense in some way. That
being said, I've yet to find an SF system which I'm perfectly happy with. I
find Shadowrun to be too modifier-happy, I dislike combat in Fading Suns,
and I have mixed feelings about Fuzion, since stat boosting does wierd
things to task resolution.
Rob
Robin Lim
> Robin Lim <ascen...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:rpO54.8275$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>
>
> A "dead horse" to be precise. And for not hating it, you're spending an
> awful lot of effort to convince everyone that it is bad and dead.
Actually, I've been spending a lot of time trying to convince people that
Star Wars will use D&D 3E, just so I can have the pleasure of telling people
"I told you so" next year when its finally released.
Anyway, as soon as I started down that path, everyone's jumping on me
claiming that Alternity is the best thing since sliced bread, and OF COURSE
WOTC is going to use Alternity for Star Wars. That's sort of a red flag for
me to jump in and start bashing the system, just like in the Runequest
thread a few months back.
Rob
spoil...@my-deja.com
Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> Robin Lim wrote:
> Well, you're in luck. I just overheard that TSR will not be using
> Alternity, they will in fact be buying a system used from another
> popular movie franchise.
>
> That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
>
Source?
-Alan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ben Brown
Robin Lim <ascen...@home.com> wrote:
>1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills. I don't like this because its
>hard to incorporate game settings with lots of cybertech and biotech, as I
>sometimes like to do.
>2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution. See above.
To be honest, these two are probably positives for a SW game.
>3) Non open-ended stat system. See above.
>4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
#3 could cause problems. #4 is the sort of things only hard-core gamers
tend to look at, although, yes, it can be frustrating.
>5) A lot of skills have special cases and caveats when it comes to task
>resolution; slows things down when you're learning to play.
>6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
>7) Three types of damage really necessary?
>8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
>rules.
>
5-7 are the things I see really causing this as to not work as a Star
Wars Game.
For various reasons, I don't feel that Alternity (without big
modifications) is going to be what they use for Star Wars. It, like most
games, has its own feel and way of doing things.
If they use any of their existing systems for the SW game, my bet would be
some version of SAGA. It seems to have worked well for Marvel (haven't
actually played it), and appears to be pretty easy to learn and play.
Mind you, that would be a dramatic departure from the WEG way of doing
Star Wars, but that, I feel, is probably the least of WotC's concerns.
But, of course, this is merely my extremely uninformed opinion.
-Ben
--
Michael T. Richter
> 1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills.
Rather similar (indeed identical) to the WEG Star Wars game. I fail to
recall your continuous ranting against it. My memory must be playing
tricks.
> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
> 5) A lot of skills have special cases and caveats when it comes to task
> resolution; slows things down when you're learning to play.
This is true, but can be applied to many games -- including, to an extent,
the WEG Star Wars game.
> 6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
> 7) Three types of damage really necessary?
I like the feel. Others don't.
> 8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
> rules.
Yes. Consistency is always a bad thing.
Robin Lim
> Robin Lim <ascen...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:kAR54.8342$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
> > 1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills.
> > 2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution.
> > 3) Non open-ended stat system.
>
> Rather similar (indeed identical) to the WEG Star Wars game. I fail to
> recall your continuous ranting against it. My memory must be playing
> tricks.
I haven't ranted against Star Wars because nobody's showed up arguing its
the best thing since sliced bread.
Unlike Alternity, I don't even own WEG Star Wars. I've always thought it
was crap, mostly because it's too hard to down a Stormtrooper in a single
hit, and therefore, not at all true to its subject matter.
Anyway, I'm not making an argument about why Alternity is or is not a good
game system for Star Wars. That's irrelevant to the topic at hand. What's
at hand is whether I like those particular aspects of the game, which I
don't.
> > 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
>
> Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
> of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
I have no clue. Sounds like another strike against WEG Star Wars.
> > 5) A lot of skills have special cases and caveats when it comes to task
> > resolution; slows things down when you're learning to play.
>
> This is true, but can be applied to many games -- including, to an extent,
> the WEG Star Wars game.
Another reason why not to like WEG Star Wars. But the thing about Alternity
is that I felt many of the special cases were unnecessary, for example
certain skills giving a modifier to difficulty every three levels. Why not
make this a general rule for all skills? Or if it is a general rule for all
skills (haven't checked), why not list it as such? To me, this was needless
complication reminscent of the old D&D proficiency system.
> > 6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
> > 7) Three types of damage really necessary?
>
> I like the feel. Others don't.
I'm ambivalent.
> > 8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
> > rules.
>
> Yes. Consistency is always a bad thing.
Who cares about a terminological consistency between cyberware, power levels
of mutations, and success levels? In that particular instance, if
consistency isn't a bad thing, its at least a pointless thing.
Rob
Alan Kohler
Mr. Richter's already done a good job of hitting the basics here, but I
thought I'd add my 2 cents.
> 1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills. I don't like this
because its
> hard to incorporate game settings with lots of cybertech and biotech,
as I
> sometimes like to do.
> 2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution. See above.
I personally prefer an even keel myself, and prefer systems that let
you swap attributes and skills. However, I don't think alternity is an
especially big offender it this arena. First, the use of broad skills
keeps everyone from being able to use default skills at their full
attribute level, and it has the added side effect of keeping players
from creating PCs that have the tedious gaggle of skills at low levels.
Second, the attribute/skill numerical ratio is smaller over the range
of attributes that are actually used in the game than such systems as
TNE/T4. Further, WEG's SW is, if anything, a more heinous offender in
this region, you just don't notice because the attributes get rolled
into the skills.
Finally, the fact that the skills give you perks at certain levels
beyond their mere numerical value means that their value is out of
proportion with their level. A character with 10 dex and 12 gun skill
has some distinct advantages over a character with 16 dex and 6 gun
skill when it comes to using that gun.
> 3) Non open-ended stat system. See above.
(shrug). It's targeted at more realistic character types than more over
the top systems like HERO.
> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
FYI "intuitively calculate" is an oxymoron. If you calculate the odds,
your conclusion is by definition deductive, not intuitive.
That aside, alternity's dice system is one of the better ones that I
have seen on the market. It has a trapezoid shaped probability curve,
with a flat region that has the same exact distribution as a d20: 5%
per point. Within that range, figuring odds is trivial.
Outside of the flat region, it is a little trickier to figure, but
still much simpler than any binomial or additive dice pool, plus has
the added benefits of amplifying the effects of difficulty on extreme
results such as amazing success levels. A straight linear dice roll is
the simplest, but I find the alternity scheme to be a very good
compromise.
> 5) A lot of skills have special cases and caveats when it comes to
task
> resolution; slows things down when you're learning to play.
Hmmm... if you are learning to play, they can be ignored. Also, if you
are learning to play, chances are you are playing a beginning character
who won't have above a 3 skill level in anything, so only their best
skills are likely to have anything special about them.
I think that the "skill kickers" have 2 very positive effects. They
make your claims about attributes being massively more important than
skills false. And they serve as sort of "brass rings" that players can
strive for, and once achieved, lets the player know that the character
is a somehow unique, talented individual.
> 6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
> 7) Three types of damage really necessary?
Well, again, I think of this as a case of the best compromise. I
personally prefer systems with body hit locations. The authors
apparently felt that route would be too complicated for their
anticipated audience, but they still realized that a simple HP sytems
that doesn't take into account intermediate effects of damage didn't
get it done and is a substandard solution.
> 8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout
the
> rules.
>
(shrug) Who cares? At least the levels between those levels have
meaning, unlike some games.
> That's about the short list of things I don't like. I can live with
items
> 4-8, but 1-3 are really, really hard to work around for the sorts of
> campaigns I'm interested in, which explore transhuman and posthuman
themes.
But which doesn't describe Star Wars. You might try HERO or MEGS.
--
Alan D. Kohler - Come visit Hawkwind's RPG Pages:
Land of Trinalia | Planescape | Fantasy Hero | Swashbuckling
Martial Arts | Starfarer SFRPG | Tesseracts in RPGs | And More!
http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/homepage.html
Alan Kohler
"Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote:
> Anyway, as soon as I started down that path, everyone's jumping on me
> claiming that Alternity is the best thing since sliced bread, and OF
COURSE
> WOTC is going to use Alternity for Star Wars. That's sort of a red
flag for
> me to jump in and start bashing the system, just like in the Runequest
> thread a few months back.
Gee, just a second ago, you were saying your bashing wasn't emotionally
based... so much for that, eh?
SD Anderson
> Looked in the wrong place. I apologize for spreading such
> rumors now. That being said, I've probably overstated the
> possibility of Alternity's demise. Got a little carried away
> with Alternity-bashing there, as sometimes happens. However, I
> still don't see Star Wars using the Alternity system, which is
> what started this whole argument in the first place.
I've stated that Alternity is the best RPG system TSR has done
too date, which doesn't necessarily mean it's the best RPG system
available. Nor does it mean it's ideally suited for SW. It does
however, work for SW type settings and has a staff that can be
brought to work on it immediately without pulling people from a
more important project.
The real choices are 3e and Alternity. The first isn't ready
or available to the public and will be in sword and sorcery form.
The second is ready NOW and suited to Space Opera.
From the offices of Hasbro, the issue of WHICH of their sets of
RPG rules the SW line goes with is pretty neglible. "Get the
product to Market!" is their bottom line. For those reasons alone
you can conclude that Alternity gets it.
SD Anderson
> I haven't ranted against Star Wars because nobody's showed up
Can't recall a lot of that sort of praise for Alternity in this
thread, just reason WHY the game will be using Alternity rules
instead of SAGA or 3e.
I'd prefer to see it go GURPS, I'm sure others would love tg
see it use MegaTraveller modified with skill improvement rules so
that Skywalker could become a better Jedi over time, others would
prefer that Decipher/FASA had gotten it, or LUG or whatever.
Alternity is not the greatest game for Star Wars. It's NOT an
unplayable system totally unsuitable for SW either. It works
it'll do the job it's staff is ready to create the game. it's a
No Brainer that Alternity gets it.
Uxi
>was crap, mostly because it's too hard to down a Stormtrooper in a single
>hit, and therefore, not at all true to its subject matter.
Too hard?? Have you ever played the game? In the SWRPG, the "kid" PC template
is more than a match for any generic stormtrooper out there (excepting Zero G
stormtroopers and Royal Guard). The system may well be flawed, but not on the
end you're claiming! Now if you substitute Royal Guard rotated on a training
tour in standard stormtrooper armor to stay "in fighting trim," as the Imperial
Sourcebook says is done, then they get tough pretty quick (nearly munchy,
even).
>> Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
>> of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
>
>I have no clue. Sounds like another strike against WEG Star Wars.
>
Average roll on 4D+2 would be around 16. Low possible is 6, average 16, high 26
(keeping in mind that a 1 or 6 on the wild can alter this). That's not very
hard, though if you want a percentage or something, i'm not gonna brake out a
calculator. Does that help you quickly grasp the odds any? ; )
You didnt' even (apparently) try. IMO, that would be a strike against you, not
against the WEG system (or any other).
Wayne Shaw
>time for a White Wolf rant to begin...
Lately that's been reserved for rec.games.frp.super-heroes when
Aberrant discussions start up...:P
Anthony Ragan
wrote:
>That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
>Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
Shoot. I was hoping they'd use Living Steel.
Then the Stormtroopers might actually be able to hit something. ;-)
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
It's an easy way to build quality of result into damage without having
it have _too_ much effect.
>7) Three types of damage really necessary?
Necessary? No. A good idea? Yes. It allows emulation of many of
the effects a hit location system does without a seperate die roll. I
considered it one of the few genuinely evolutionary things in the
system.
>8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
>rules.
I'll give you there are occasionally examples of "When you have a big
hammer, everything looks like a nail" in this regard, but it's hardly
a major flaw of the game.
>
>That's about the short list of things I don't like. I can live with items
>4-8, but 1-3 are really, really hard to work around for the sorts of
>campaigns I'm interested in, which explore transhuman and posthuman themes.
I will give you that I'm not altogether happy with the overweighting
of attributes in Alternity. On the other hand, it's hardly the only
game system that does that, and there were attempts to mitigate this
(of course they add that special casing you didn't like).
>The present cybertech system and the present range of cybertech just isn't
>broad enough to appeal to the crazed munchkin toy collector in me, having
Well, it's not primarily a cyberpunk system; it's an SF system with
some support for cybertech. I'm sure they'll get around to a
cybertech book one of these days, but it wasn't a high priority.
>cut my teeth on Shadowrun and all. What I'm looking for is a system that
>puts no limits on human enhancement, yet makes sense in some way. That
>being said, I've yet to find an SF system which I'm perfectly happy with. I
>find Shadowrun to be too modifier-happy, I dislike combat in Fading Suns,
>and I have mixed feelings about Fuzion, since stat boosting does wierd
>things to task resolution.
In fact, I'm suprised you don't have the same problem with Fuzion you
do with Alternity; stats tend to weight in as heavily or more heavily
than skills there, too. The only difference is that a starting
character can put more into the actual skill than in Alternity...but
unless they're very narrow it's not likely to be the case.
Robin Lim
Alan Kohler <hawkw...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8392so$meg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <GER54.8344$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com>,
> "Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote:
> > Anyway, as soon as I started down that path, everyone's jumping on me
> > claiming that Alternity is the best thing since sliced bread, and OF
> COURSE
> > WOTC is going to use Alternity for Star Wars. That's sort of a red
> flag for
> > me to jump in and start bashing the system, just like in the Runequest
> > thread a few months back.
>
> Gee, just a second ago, you were saying your bashing wasn't emotionally
> based... so much for that, eh?
The reason behind my bashing may be emotional, but I'm trying to provide a
logical basis for argument.
Rob
Robin Lim
Uxi <uxi1...@aol.comixuxi> wrote in message
news:19991215174416...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
> >Unlike Alternity, I don't even own WEG Star Wars. I've always thought it
> >was crap, mostly because it's too hard to down a Stormtrooper in a single
> >hit, and therefore, not at all true to its subject matter.
>
> Too hard?? Have you ever played the game? In the SWRPG, the "kid" PC
template
> is more than a match for any generic stormtrooper out there (excepting
Zero G
> stormtroopers and Royal Guard). The system may well be flawed, but not on
the
> end you're claiming! Now if you substitute Royal Guard rotated on a
training
> tour in standard stormtrooper armor to stay "in fighting trim," as the
Imperial
> Sourcebook says is done, then they get tough pretty quick (nearly munchy,
> even).
Actually, this is an anecdotal problem referred to whenever someone brings
up playing Star Wars. Anyway, the problem isn't who's a match for who, the
problem is that things don't blow up in a single hit, just like a movies.
> Average roll on 4D+2 would be around 16. Low possible is 6, average 16,
high 26
> (keeping in mind that a 1 or 6 on the wild can alter this). That's not
very
> hard, though if you want a percentage or something, i'm not gonna brake
out a
> calculator. Does that help you quickly grasp the odds any? ; )
>
> You didnt' even (apparently) try. IMO, that would be a strike against
you, not
> against the WEG system (or any other).
If I cared to figure it out, I could have told you that.
Rob
Wayne Shaw
<m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
>
>Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
>of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
To be fair, Michael, while the precise odds can't be calculated on the
fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least knows where
they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice system of Alternity
is much less intuitive. For example, without even checking, I know
the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and with 6D6 is 21...and that the curve
piles up reasonably heavy in those points. A D20-D8 is going to
average around 6, but it's going to gust much more, and likely isn't
as amenable to eyeballing for most people.
>> 6) Three types of damage for each weapon really necessary?
>> 7) Three types of damage really necessary?
>
>I like the feel. Others don't.
Like I said, I consider it one of the best features of the game
system.
>Yes. Consistency is always a bad thing.
Inappropriate consistency can be. The tendency to have three, and
only three grades of equipment is probably a bit much sometimes, for
example.
Robin Lim
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
news:83938r$5tg$5...@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
> Robin Lim wrote:
>
> I've stated that Alternity is the best RPG system TSR has done
> too date, which doesn't necessarily mean it's the best RPG system
> available. Nor does it mean it's ideally suited for SW. It does
> however, work for SW type settings and has a staff that can be
> brought to work on it immediately without pulling people from a
> more important project.
>
> The real choices are 3e and Alternity. The first isn't ready
> or available to the public and will be in sword and sorcery form.
> The second is ready NOW and suited to Space Opera.
Since Alternity's out now, wouldn't they have announced it if that was the
system they were planning on using? It would give Alternity a nice shot in
the arm.
> From the offices of Hasbro, the issue of WHICH of their sets of
> RPG rules the SW line goes with is pretty neglible. "Get the
> product to Market!" is their bottom line. For those reasons alone
> you can conclude that Alternity gets it.
And this is where I respectfully disagree. If I were in their position, the
reasoning would go something like this:
"Alright, this is Star Wars. Are we going to tie this in with our niche
product, or with our mass-market product?"
"Well, it might boost our niche product to mass-market status..."
"On the other hand, people like simplicity. If they only have to learn one
system for both games, then every person we sell Star Wars to might pick up
D&D, since they'll know how to play it already."
Feel free to disagree. The more people who disagree the better. That way,
there's more people I can say "I told you so" to in about ten months.
Rob
Ben Brown
Robin Lim <ascen...@home.com> wrote:
>And this is where I respectfully disagree. If I were in their position, the
>reasoning would go something like this:
>
>"Alright, this is Star Wars. Are we going to tie this in with our niche
>product, or with our mass-market product?"
So therefore, going with WotC's mass-market product vs. their niche
product. . .
it's going to be on cards, sold in booster packs, with cute animal
characters with names like "Charmander" and "Bellsprout" on them!
D&D is as much a niche product as any other RPG. It's just the big fish
in the small niche that is our hobby.
At this point they've just gotten the license. It's far to early to
tell what's going to happen.
-Ben
--
Robin Lim
Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com> wrote in message
news:xhxYOHfwdiVDmj...@4ax.com...
>
> it have _too_ much effect.
See my reply to Mr. Kohler. There often isn't enough variation between
Ordinary and Good damage to make that distinction particularly useful.
Whatever the case, it feels like a place where the system could have used
some streamlining.
> >7) Three types of damage really necessary?
>
> Necessary? No. A good idea? Yes. It allows emulation of many of
> the effects a hit location system does without a seperate die roll. I
> considered it one of the few genuinely evolutionary things in the
> system.
Actually, I think the game would have done fine with two different types of
damage, like a lot of other games on the market.
> >8) The over-emphasis on three levels of everything found throughout the
> >rules.
>
> I'll give you there are occasionally examples of "When you have a big
> hammer, everything looks like a nail" in this regard, but it's hardly
> a major flaw of the game.
That's why I put that right at the bottom of the list. It's just one of the
wierd quirks of the system :)
> I will give you that I'm not altogether happy with the overweighting
> of attributes in Alternity. On the other hand, it's hardly the only
> game system that does that, and there were attempts to mitigate this
> (of course they add that special casing you didn't like).
The special casing works in some cases, and doesn't in others. I feel some
of it could have been eliminated or streamlined into a number of general
rules, for instance, a general rule determining where you get extra attacks
for all the different combat skills. Extra attacks pop up at similar points
along the skill progression.
> Well, it's not primarily a cyberpunk system; it's an SF system with
> some support for cybertech. I'm sure they'll get around to a
> cybertech book one of these days, but it wasn't a high priority.
Hrm. I think cyberpunk systems need to either weakly link or completely
unlink attributes from skills. GURPS does this quite well. There's quite a
few strength-boosting bits of bioware out there, but then strength doesn't
have much of a role to play in skill use. Not many items act as dexterity
boosters or intelligence boosters.
I'm also not really sure what really high attributes might do to the odds of
task resolution.
> In fact, I'm suprised you don't have the same problem with Fuzion you
> do with Alternity; stats tend to weight in as heavily or more heavily
> than skills there, too. The only difference is that a starting
> character can put more into the actual skill than in Alternity...but
> unless they're very narrow it's not likely to be the case.
I'm not a big Fuzion fan either. However, Alternity tries to spread all of
its skills out amongst the different attributes. I don't think there are
many strength skills in Fuzion. And Fuzion at least pretends to be an
open-ended system, as it pretends to be a superhero game :) Anyway, I've
decided that the next SF game I'm going to run is either going to be a wierd
mix of Trinity and Aberrant.
Rob
Sidhain
>
> I'm also not really sure what really high attributes might do to the odds of
> task resolution.
>
> > In fact, I'm suprised you don't have the same problem with Fuzion you
> > do with Alternity; stats tend to weight in as heavily or more heavily
> > than skills there, too. The only difference is that a starting
> > character can put more into the actual skill than in Alternity...but
> > unless they're very narrow it's not likely to be the case.
>
> I'm not a big Fuzion fan either. However, Alternity tries to spread all of
> its skills out amongst the different attributes. I don't think there are
> many strength skills in Fuzion. And Fuzion at least pretends to be an
> open-ended system, as it pretends to be a superhero game :) Anyway, I've
> decided that the next SF game I'm going to run is either going to be a wierd
> mix of Trinity and Aberrant.
>
> Rob
>
Which interestingly enough uses WW Sotryteller system that utilizes attributes in a very
similar manner to Alternity: Attribute detemines one's base skill.
>
Jeremy Reaban
Michael T. Richter wrote in message ...
<snip>
>> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
>
>Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
>of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
I don't know the actual odds, but I'd say 4D+2 has about a 35% chance of
rolling a 20, and with 6D, it's about 55%.
To gauge the odds roughly, you just have to remember that a D6 averages a
3.5... So, with 6D, the roll is probably going to be around 21, and with
4D+2, around 15 .....
Lizard
wrote:
Yeah, but it would take you an hour to find out what.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice;
Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue:AuH20
http://www.mrlizard.com
Lizard
<m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>Robin Lim <ascen...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:kAR54.8342$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>> 1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills.
>> 2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution.
>> 3) Non open-ended stat system.
>
>Rather similar (indeed identical) to the WEG Star Wars game. I fail to
>recall your continuous ranting against it. My memory must be playing
>tricks.
>
>> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
>
>Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target number
>of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
>
6*3.5=18+3=21, a noodge better than 50/50. 4#3.5=12+2=14=not so good.
1D=3.5. This is not hard to do in your head.
Lizard
>
>
>If they use any of their existing systems for the SW game, my bet would be
>some version of SAGA. It seems to have worked well for Marvel (haven't
>actually played it), and appears to be pretty easy to learn and play.
This would be my bet. It's cinematic, it's simple, and there's
probably a lot of crossover between comic-book fans and Star Wars
fans. The use of cards might also make it seem more like a 'real game'
to non-gamers.
Robin Lim
Ben Brown <benb...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:8399qq$nnt$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> So therefore, going with WotC's mass-market product vs. their niche
> product. . .
>
> it's going to be on cards, sold in booster packs, with cute animal
> characters with names like "Charmander" and "Bellsprout" on them!
*grin* Makes you wonder when the company cleaners are going to show up on
Decipher's doorstep with "an offer they can't refuse."
Rob
Robin Lim
Sidhain <sid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:839ebt$9fe$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> .
> Which interestingly enough uses WW Sotryteller system that utilizes
attributes in a very
> similar manner to Alternity: Attribute detemines one's base skill.
Storyteller weights skills and attributes equally. With cheap
specializations, I think it gives skills a slight edge.
Other than that, I like throwing a big bucket of d10s.
Rob
Eric Tolle
> > That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> > Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
>
> Eric, can you point us to where you found this information? I know a
> lot of people who are waiting for just this announcement.
...@_@;
Gee, I really shouldn't be surprised, but once again, Usenet has
thrown a curve ball at me. _That'll teach me.
Tell you what. Go take a look at the Leading Edge system, or ask
someone here about it. See how suitable it would be for Star Wars.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
folded, spindled, mutilated, and used to make funky children's
party hats.
Eric Tolle
>
> In article <3857209D...@silcom.com>,
> Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> > That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> > Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
> Source?
I'll tell you, if _first_ you tel me, in a hundred words or less,
why the Leading Edge Game system is perfect for Star Wars, in
fact better then any other system.
Nikolaj Lemche
> Actually, this is an anecdotal problem referred to whenever someone brings
> up playing Star Wars. Anyway, the problem isn't who's a match for who,
> the problem is that things don't blow up in a single hit, just like a
> movies.
Have you played the game much? If you use a heavy blast pistol (the one Solo
uses) then you have exactly 50% chance of incapacitating a stormtrooper and
5/6 chance of wounding him seriously. And that is when he have his armor on.
Nikolaj Lemche
------------------------------------------------
E-mail: nik...@mail1.stofanet.dk
Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/Kuranov/
Robin Lim
Nikolaj Lemche <Nik...@mail1.stofanet.dk> wrote in message
news:83b46k$487$1...@news101.telia.com...
> Robin Lim wrote:
>
> > Actually, this is an anecdotal problem referred to whenever someone
brings
> > up playing Star Wars. Anyway, the problem isn't who's a match for who,
> > the problem is that things don't blow up in a single hit, just like a
> > movies.
>
> Have you played the game much? If you use a heavy blast pistol (the one
Solo
> uses) then you have exactly 50% chance of incapacitating a stormtrooper
and
> 5/6 chance of wounding him seriously. And that is when he have his armor
on.
To be quite honest, I think that was an example of bad GMing. IRC, the PCs
were trying to ambush a Stormtrooper. They snuck up behind him and tried to
smash him on the head with a rock, and got a light wound. However, with
lighter weapons than a heavy blaster pistol, the chances of doing heavy
damage go down quite significantly.
Rob
4th_Doctor
> > However, comparatively speaking, Alternity is not a smash . . . It
seems inconceivable that SW is going to be shackled to such a system.
> Well, you're in luck. I just overheard that TSR will not be using
> Alternity, they will in fact be buying a system used from another
> popular movie franchise.
> That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
> Happy?
> ;')
> --
> Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
> Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
> folded, spindled, mutilated, and used to make funky children's
> party hats.
Happy! I dunno. Am I glad that they are not using Alternity? You bet
your bippy! While I have nothing against Alternity, I know gamers that
love it, I don't feel it is WotC/TSR's best product. In many respects
I still think Star Frontiers and Gamma World were much better systems.
I am slightly familiar with WEGs Aliens universe (Masterbook system),
but I have never heard of Aliens Adventure Game. Nor, am I at all
familiar with Leading Edge Games. What are they like? What is the
basic mechanic?
I would love to hear more.
The Doctor
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
SD Anderson
> To be fair, Michael, while the precise odds can't be calculated
> on the fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least
> knows where they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice
> system of Alternity is much less intuitive. For example,
> without even checking, I know the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and
> with 6D6 is 21...and that the curve piles up reasonably heavy in
> those points. A D20-D8 is going to average around 6, but it's
> going to gust much more, and likely isn't as amenable to
> eyeballing for most people.
Unless the Alternity players are given the same advantage you
handed out to the d6 players: years of experience using the
system.
If we're going to eyeball the Alternity dice, we're going to
eyeball the d6 chances as well. Oh in the d6 example: your target
number is 25. Odds?
SD Anderson
>> Happy! I dunno. Am I glad that they are not using Alternity?
>> You bet your bippy! While I have nothing against Alternity, I
>> know gamers that love it, I don't feel it is WotC/TSR's best
>> product. In many respects I still think Star Frontiers and
>> Gamma World were much better systems.
> I think you just took a joke seriously.
Apparently the original poster should have said TSR was going
to use the rules of TOON to have made it clear he was joking. ;)
SD Anderson
> To be quite honest, I think that was an example of bad GMing.
> IRC, the PCs were trying to ambush a Stormtrooper. They snuck
> up behind him and tried to smash him on the head with a rock,
> and got a light wound. However, with lighter weapons than a
> heavy blaster pistol, the chances of doing heavy damage go down
> quite significantly.
So the complaint is that PCs who used inferior damage type
attacks got low damage results? Tsk Tsk. What is the world
coming to?
SD Anderson
>> Gee, just a second ago, you were saying your bashing wasn't
>> emotionally based... so much for that, eh?
> The reason behind my bashing may be emotional, but I'm trying to
> provide a logical basis for argument.
The key word there being *trying*. Note that trying is NOT a
synonym for *succeeding*, but can be a synonym for *excessive
repetition*. ;)
Neel Krishnaswami
Not to Endor, at any rate.
Feng Shui got this right; it doesn't matter *what* you attack a
faceless henchman with -- he'll go down regardless.
Neel
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>> To be fair, Michael, while the precise odds can't be calculated
>> on the fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least
>> knows where they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice
>> system of Alternity is much less intuitive. For example,
>> without even checking, I know the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and
>> with 6D6 is 21...and that the curve piles up reasonably heavy in
>> those points. A D20-D8 is going to average around 6, but it's
>> going to gust much more, and likely isn't as amenable to
>> eyeballing for most people.
>
> Unless the Alternity players are given the same advantage you
>handed out to the d6 players: years of experience using the
>system.
Except _most_ people are at least somewhat familiar with D6s; all you
need to have that is having played Risk.
>
> If we're going to eyeball the Alternity dice, we're going to
>eyeball the d6 chances as well. Oh in the d6 example: your target
>number is 25. Odds?
Poor and one chance in about 1200 something.
Allan Goodall
>I'll tell you, if _first_ you tel me, in a hundred words or less,
>why the Leading Edge Game system is perfect for Star Wars, in
>fact better then any other system.
*LOL* Some of us Living Steel/Phoenix Command players get what you're talking
about! It COULD be used for Star Wars... but that would be sort of like using
a backhoe for planting tulip bulbs...
On the other hand, the system used in the Aliens board game (by LEG) would
work marvelously, if someone could reverse engineer the numbers. And I DO have
a conversion for playin Warhammer 40,000 using Living Steel as the game
system!
Allan Goodall agoo...@interlog.com
Goodall's Grotto: http://www.interlog.com/~agoodall/
"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
Ed Chauvin IV
rec.games.frp.misc, Robin Lim used a less than adequate newsreader
Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
to describe Re: Alternity = Dead Horse?
>
>Nikolaj Lemche <Nik...@mail1.stofanet.dk> wrote in message
>news:83b46k$487$1...@news101.telia.com...
>> Robin Lim wrote:
>>
>> > Actually, this is an anecdotal problem referred to whenever someone
>brings
>> > up playing Star Wars. Anyway, the problem isn't who's a match for who,
>> > the problem is that things don't blow up in a single hit, just like a
>> > movies.
>>
>> Have you played the game much? If you use a heavy blast pistol (the one
>Solo
>> uses) then you have exactly 50% chance of incapacitating a stormtrooper
>and
>> 5/6 chance of wounding him seriously. And that is when he have his armor
>on.
>
>To be quite honest, I think that was an example of bad GMing. IRC, the PCs
>were trying to ambush a Stormtrooper. They snuck up behind him and tried to
>smash him on the head with a rock, and got a light wound. However, with
>lighter weapons than a heavy blaster pistol, the chances of doing heavy
>damage go down quite significantly.
And this is a bad thing, how? I wouldn't expect an armored opponent
to be heavily wounded by a rock.
I like to use real world comparisons for these types of things, and
the one that comes to mind immediately is a motorcycle helmet. I'm
sure we can safely assume that the ST's helmet provides at least the
same protection against blunt force as today's motorcycle helmets (if
not more). Motorcycle racers are routinely seen walking away from
90+mph spills on asphalt, and even when they impact a wall, the major
injuries tend to be spinal and limb fractures.
Ed Chauvin IV
--
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the Beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Alan Kohler
Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> spoil...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <3857209D...@silcom.com>,
> > Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
>
> > > That's right, they are going to be using the system from Leading
> > > Edge Game's "Aliens Adventure Game".
>
>
> I'll tell you, if _first_ you tel me, in a hundred words or less,
> why the Leading Edge Game system is perfect for Star Wars, in
> fact better then any other system.
Why would I lie to you?
--
Alan D. Kohler - Come visit Hawkwind's RPG Pages:
Land of Trinalia | Planescape | Fantasy Hero | Swashbuckling
Martial Arts | Starfarer SFRPG | Tesseracts in RPGs | And More!
http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/homepage.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Alan Kohler
Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:48:30 GMT, "Michael T. Richter"
> <m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>
> >> 4) Difficult to intuitively calculate odds during task resolution.
> >
> >Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target
number
> >of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
>
> fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least knows where
> they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice system of Alternity
> is much less intuitive.
BS. It is much easier to guestimate odds in alternity since it has a
broad linear region - each point in that region is 5%. Compare that to
star wars or any other system that varies the number of dice - you have
no idea how much one point represents unless you do non-trivial
computations.
> For example, without even checking, I know
> the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and with 6D6 is 21...and that the curve
> piles up reasonably heavy in those points. A D20-D8 is going to
> average around 6, but it's going to gust much more, and likely isn't
> as amenable to eyeballing for most people.
>
Again, BS. You had to figure 21 by 3.5 x 6. Alternity is easier, just
add to numbers - 10.5 - 4.5. Further, though you have the average
numbers for both now, what is the chance of the average number +1? +2?
For alternity, that is trivial. For SW, hope you have a computer and
some programming skills handy.
Alan Kohler
Lizard <liz...@mrlizard.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:48:30 GMT, "Michael T. Richter"
> <m...@ottawa.com> wrote:
>
> >news:kAR54.8342$TT4.4...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
> >> 1) Strong emphasis on attributes over skills.
> >> 2) Strong emphasis on attributes in task resolution.
> >> 3) Non open-ended stat system.
> >
> >Rather similar (indeed identical) to the WEG Star Wars game. I fail
to
> >recall your continuous ranting against it. My memory must be playing
> >tricks.
> >
> >
> >Quick! Without a calculator, what are the odds of hitting a target
number
> >of 20 with 4D+2? 6D?
> >
>
> 1D=3.5. This is not hard to do in your head.
Neither is "11 + half 2nd die size if positive, 10 - half 2nd die size
if negative." (i.e., 10.5 +/- avg. of smaller die.) It's easeir than
multiplying by 3.5.
Now once you start to talk about any deviation from that average,
alternity is MUCH easier than any dice pool scheme. MUCH.
SD Anderson
> Except _most_ people are at least somewhat familiar with D6s;
> all you need to have that is having played Risk.
Two points. 1) I didn't insist on sporting the WEG players the
advantage of years of familiarity with the system as part of an
argument of why it's easier to calculate the odds of 2d+2 vs 3d.
YOU DID. I just pointed out with familiarity on an even basis
your argument worked just as well for Alternity. 2) Most
Monopoly, craps and other players are familiar with a 2d or 1d
system. 4d=1 isn't trained into their basic proability eyeballing
skill package.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw said:
I disagree; once you're used to rolling 3 dice, extrapolating to any
even number isn't hard; I've watched brand new players do it pretty
well. Evaluating the probs from polyhedra...particularly _different_
polyhedra...either requires extensive experience with them or some
basic knowledge of the probabilities involved.
gent...@remove.tcp.co.uk
wrote:
>Well, IMHO, Alternity wasn't a very good game, and support for
>the line seemed spotty at best.
Err how so? Alternity has had consistant support since it was
released, first with the Star Drive setting and most recently with the
Dark Matter setting. Also a host of 'generic' suppliments such as
Dataware (computers), Starships, Tangets (time travel) and in Feb 2000
the FX book. Also the Psionics suppliment is in the shops now.
How much more support do you want to see?
gent
Robin Lim
<gent...@remove.tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:385baf25...@news.tcp.co.uk...
I guess that must be why I felt Alternity got much support.
Rob
SD Anderson
> How about something I wanted to buy? :)
You're changing the subject Robin. This is about which set of
rules TSR/WotC is-going-to-use/ought to put the SW franchise into
the stores. A while back you rather haughtily tried to disuade
arguments for Allternity being the one as wishful thinking.
I think it's clear the system(s) you're rooting for are pretty
much in need of a Wish spell if it's(they're) going to be used.
SD Anderson
> I disagree; once you're used to rolling 3 dice, extrapolating
> to any even number isn't hard; I've watched brand new players do
> it pretty well. Evaluating the probs from polyhedra...
> particularly _different_ polyhedra...either requires extensive
> experience with them or some basic knowledge of the
> probabilities involved.
You can disagree all you want, and the above is by far the
argument you should have initially used, but having as the lawyers
put it, opened the door by granting the d6 players experience with
the system to 'intuitiviely' know their chances with 4d 5d etc,
you opened the door to experience with the Alternity system as
well and ahem, it doesn't take THAT much game experience to get a
handle on what numbers work well or work poorly with which dice.
SD Anderson
use for Star Wars. At last check (having voted, I get to see the
results) d6 is leading by a country mile. Alternity is getting
rougly 2 votes for every one D&D 3e is getting however. So if TSR
is going to go with a system they already have in production, it
looks like they should go with Alternity. If they aren't, they
might as well license d6 from WEG.
SD Anderson
> Neither is "11 + half 2nd die size if positive, 10 - half 2nd
> die size if negative." (i.e., 10.5 +/- avg. of smaller die.)
> It's easeir than multiplying by 3.5.
Then there is another rule from 2nd edition Star Wars to make
calculating the odds harder: The Wild die. One out of six rolls
on that die mean something good happens even if the die roll as a
whole sucketh the biggeth one. And one out of six rolls on that
die indicate a bad result even if the overall dice say "Good Times
have arrived".
Eric Tolle
>
> Richard Persky wrote:
>
> >> Happy! I dunno. Am I glad that they are not using Alternity?
> >> You bet your bippy! While I have nothing against Alternity, I
> > I think you just took a joke seriously.
>
> Apparently the original poster should have said TSR was going
> to use the rules of TOON to have made it clear he was joking. ;)
I dunno- after the last movie, I could see a Star Wars Toon
rule set. Or at least using Teenager's From Outer Space- with
Knacks like "Be Disgustingly Precocious" or "Annoy Everybody in the
Audience".
It could work, I tell you. Why someone would _want to, is another
story.
Eric Tolle
>
> Robin Lim wrote:
>
> > Actually, this is an anecdotal problem referred to whenever someone brings
> > up playing Star Wars. Anyway, the problem isn't who's a match for who,
> > the problem is that things don't blow up in a single hit, just like a
> > movies.
>
> Have you played the game much? If you use a heavy blast pistol (the one Solo
> uses) then you have exactly 50% chance of incapacitating a stormtrooper and
How about a light blast pistol, like Princess Lea used?
Anyway, that's a minor example. you want a worse example, take a
look at spacecraft. X-Wings and Y-Wings can take far too many hits
to emulate the movies.
"Red 6 this is Red 4- I've got a T.I.E. on my tail- if he hits me
three more times, I may be in trouble!"
Robin Lim
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
news:83gjul$cv7$2...@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
I'm not rooting for a system, I'm saying what I feel makes most sense from a
marketing perspective. As far as the Pyramid Poll goes, perhaps that will
make WOTC change its mind. If it does, more power to the Alternity players.
I wouldn't bank on it, however.
Rob
Nikolaj Lemche
> How about a light blast pistol, like Princess Lea used?
Hmm.. lets talk about something else. :)
> Anyway, that's a minor example. you want a worse example, take a
> look at spacecraft. X-Wings and Y-Wings can take far too many hits
> to emulate the movies.
Agreed, and they are also far too maneuverable. I think they were made so
because they were meant to be used by player characters, while the Tie's
were used by the bad guys.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> I disagree; once you're used to rolling 3 dice, extrapolating
>> to any even number isn't hard; I've watched brand new players do
>> it pretty well. Evaluating the probs from polyhedra...
>> particularly _different_ polyhedra...either requires extensive
>> experience with them or some basic knowledge of the
>> probabilities involved.
>
> You can disagree all you want, and the above is by far the
>argument you should have initially used, but having as the lawyers
>put it, opened the door by granting the d6 players experience with
>the system to 'intuitiviely' know their chances with 4d 5d etc,
I did no such thing; I talked about experience _with dice_. I don't
know what in my phrasing made you think otherwise, but that was my
point.
>you opened the door to experience with the Alternity system as
>well and ahem, it doesn't take THAT much game experience to get a
>handle on what numbers work well or work poorly with which dice.
I've seen it quite the otherwise for many people. Particularly when
using polyhedra of different sizes.
Not that this is a particularly strong thump against Alternity, but if
you consider evaluating likelyhood from dice important, it _can_ and
often is harder for some people.
Wayne Shaw
<hawkw...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> To be fair, Michael, while the precise odds can't be calculated on the
>> fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least knows where
>> they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice system of Alternity
>> is much less intuitive.
>
>BS. It is much easier to guestimate odds in alternity since it has a
>broad linear region - each point in that region is 5%. Compare that to
>star wars or any other system that varies the number of dice - you have
>no idea how much one point represents unless you do non-trivial
>computations.
On the other hand, I know any number of people who know that 6D6
averages 21, and piles up pretty heavy in that spot. I know much less
who could tell you without thinking about it that 1d20-1d8 will
average 6. So I'm sorry, but it's not "BS". It may well be easier to
figure odds in Alternity with precision, but for far more people it's
much easier to eyeball d6 rolls. If you think otherwise, ask around
at a gaming convention some time. This has nothing to do with the
ease of the math and everything to do with the fact that more people,
even in gaming, are more familiar with d6s.
>
>> For example, without even checking, I know
>> the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and with 6D6 is 21...and that the curve
>> piles up reasonably heavy in those points. A D20-D8 is going to
>> average around 6, but it's going to gust much more, and likely isn't
>> as amenable to eyeballing for most people.
>>
>
>Again, BS. You had to figure 21 by 3.5 x 6. Alternity is easier, just
No, actually, I just happened to remember. I've played enough D6
based games over the years it's been convenient to know. On the other
hand, most people haven't had to deal with subtracting or adding
polyhedra very often, and when they have it's likely been the same
kind of polyhedra. Kindly get off your hostility Alan and look at
what I'm saying. You're focusing on the mathematics; I'm talking
about the reality of what people, gamers or not, are primarily used to
working with in terms of randomizers.
>add to numbers - 10.5 - 4.5. Further, though you have the average
>numbers for both now, what is the chance of the average number +1? +2?
>For alternity, that is trivial. For SW, hope you have a computer and
>some programming skills handy.
Since most of the time for the sort of evals people are doing on the
fly they don't need to know the chance; they just need to know the
expected and perhaps a rough feel for the amount of varience. And
from what I've seen, most people do that better with D6 based games.
Jeremy Reaban
Eric Tolle wrote in message <385BF0BB...@silcom.com>...
<snip>
>Anyway, that's a minor example. you want a worse example, take a
>look at spacecraft. X-Wings and Y-Wings can take far too many hits
>to emulate the movies.
>
>three more times, I may be in trouble!"
Well, several X-wings did get hit and not blow up right away. Luke's X-wing
for instance. And Wedge's. And Porkins'.
The thing is, because movies aren't real life, they tend not to follow
consistant rules, but rules of drama. Extras, like the x-wings piloted by
characters without names tend to blow up with one shot, simply because
they're extras. And Biggs's blew up because he was Luke's friend (which
actually makes more sense if early parts of the movie with him in it weren't
cut out), and so was done for drama.
The WEG SW RPG is fairly consistant with the movies, and agrees very well
with the books, and computer games. The only real problem is with the
B-wings, which really suck in the RPG.
Alec A. Burkhardt
Robin Lim wrote in message ...
>I'm not rooting for a system, I'm saying what I feel makes most sense from
a
>marketing perspective. As far as the Pyramid Poll goes, perhaps that will
>make WOTC change its mind. If it does, more power to the Alternity
players.
Change their mind about what? They haven't issued any statement about the
system that will be used for SW -- for all we know they've already decided
to use Alternity. Just because you believe you're right that they'll use
some form of D&D3e doesn't make it true.
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
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Jay Adan
>
>
> And I DO have
> a conversion for playin Warhammer 40,000 using Living Steel as the game
> system!
>
Online somewhere???
--
T A N G E N T S
Sellers of the finest in Sci-fi Publications,
Products, and other cool stuff!
http://tangents-sf.com
Uzmati29
WOTC, and the person said that the new star wars game will not be using the D6
system. Of course that is not really a big surprise.
SD Anderson
>> you opened the door to experience with the Alternity system as
>> well and ahem, it doesn't take THAT much game experience to get
>> a handle on what numbers work well or work poorly with which
>> dice.
> I've seen it quite the otherwise for many people. Particularly
> when using polyhedra of different sizes.
To paraphrase Alan Kohler on another post in this extended
mess, add or subtract the 2nd die from the d20 to calculate the
new average roll, ie d20 minus d6 average 10.5 - 3.5 = 7. Each
point roll is equivalent to 5%, so your average result in that
case is 35%. What's the problem?
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw opined:
That many people don't think of it that way? Come on, SD, basic
probability isn't that complicated either, but I've seen any number of
otherwise bright people get it quite wrong. The advantage with D6 is
that many people have internalized it without really needing to think
about it, just because they've tossed one or two D6 a lot over their
lives. With anything past that, they have to actually remember the
probs per die, and in many cases, they just won't. I've had people
look at me like I had done magic just because I was able to answer a
question about the expected result from rolling 3d4 without pausing.
That's just the way it happens to be.
John R. Cooper
<edc...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>To be quite honest, I think that was an example of bad GMing. IRC, the PCs
>>were trying to ambush a Stormtrooper. They snuck up behind him and tried to
>>smash him on the head with a rock, and got a light wound. However, with
>>lighter weapons than a heavy blaster pistol, the chances of doing heavy
>>damage go down quite significantly.
>
>And this is a bad thing, how? I wouldn't expect an armored opponent
>to be heavily wounded by a rock.
Then how do you account for Ewok slingshots taking out
stormtroopers? Or any of the other rediculous, low-tech Ewok weapons
that led to the defeat of the Imperial garrison on Endor?
Let's face it, when talking about Star Wars (or space opera as a
genre in general), realism has to be pitched right out the window as a
first order of business. By convention, the Good Guys get to take out
the Bad Guys with one blow/shot/whatever no matter what weapon is
used, while the Bad Guys will either miss completely most of the time
or do only superficial damage when they do hit a Good Guy (can you say
Cylon fighter-pilot? I knew you could).
Cheers,
- John
SD Anderson
>> To paraphrase Alan Kohler on another post in this extended
>> mess, add or subtract the 2nd die from the d20 to calculate the
>> new average roll, ie d20 minus d6 average 10.5 - 3.5 = 7. Each
>> point roll is equivalent to 5%, so your average result in that
>> case is 35%. What's the problem?
> That many people don't think of it that way? Come on, SD, basic
> probability isn't that complicated either, but I've seen any
> number of otherwise bright people get it quite wrong.
Most of them play the game and quickly pick up what numbers
work well with which dice combo. But if they don't there is the u
thread method for determining it. Either way, methods exist that
take little effort.
Wayne Shaw
wrote:
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
What can work and what seems to work with a lot of people are
different things however. As I said, the only thing I can ascribe it
to is that even people who come to RPGs late have done a certain
amount of working with D6 in orthodox board games over the years.
Danbuter
RPGA group, and everyone really liked it.
DAn.....
"Staring into the dragon's jaw, one quickly learns wisdom"
from Steven Brust's "Jhereg"
Matt Blackwell
Monkey) wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:17:34 -0800, Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:15:51 GMT, "Art Wendorf" <AWEN...@satx.rr.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Robin Lim" <ascen...@home.com> wrote
>>>>>Alternity just isn't that good a game, and its unlikely WOTC will chain a new
>>>flagship line to a dead horse.<<
>>>
>>>While I admit that I can be, and often am, behind the times, why is everyone
>>>calling Alternity a dead horse or a dying game? Did I miss something as usual?
>>
>>Chronic pessimism or wishful thinking on some people's part, I expect.
>
>
>"Because it's T$R. It's the "MAN" baby! That's why I wish, ah, er,
>know it will fail." :-P
>
>I always like these "I hate the big RPG companies" rants. Seems about
>time for a White Wolf rant to begin...
What?! White Wolf has the rights to the Star Wars RPG now? Dear lord!
What the hell is Lucas thinking?! It's going to suck! They'll start
dividing everyone up into clans, or professions or something equally
goofy and then all those blasted goths will start showing up at Star
Wars conventions. Then they'll bring out their "dark and moody"
supplements for Star Wars...
Man, this is just going to suck. I hate White Wolf.
Matt- Happy?
spoil...@my-deja.com
Bah! Just because the movie chose to resort to lame hollywood
conventions means that we have to? I don't think so. Many people find
Return to be the worst movie of the SW movies just because of the
ridiculous ewok episode. One of the points of role-playing games is
that we can take control of the reality and aren't bound by hollywood
action movie conventions.
Just because the game is based on a movie does not mean that the game
has to be a movie.
-Alan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
spoil...@my-deja.com
Wayne Shaw <sh...@caprica.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:19:24 GMT, Alan Kohler
> <hawkw...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >> To be fair, Michael, while the precise odds can't be calculated on
the
> >> fly, anyone who's worked with D6 over the years at least knows
where
> >> they tend to pile up; the nonsymmetrical two-dice system of
Alternity
> >> is much less intuitive.
> >
> >BS. It is much easier to guestimate odds in alternity since it has a
> >broad linear region - each point in that region is 5%. Compare that
to
> >star wars or any other system that varies the number of dice - you
have
> >no idea how much one point represents unless you do non-trivial
> >computations.
>
> On the other hand, I know any number of people who know that 6D6
> averages 21, and piles up pretty heavy in that spot. I know much less
> who could tell you without thinking about it that 1d20-1d8 will
> average 6. So I'm sorry, but it's not "BS".
So, tell me: do you play SW or Alternity? I bet you that as many or
more alternity players can tell you the average of 1d20-1d8 (6, BTW)
than D6 players can tell you 21 is the average of 6D6. I can tell you
the average of 6D6 is 21 off the top of my head, because I'm numerate
enough to realize it is the equivalent of 3x7. But anyone who is that
numerate can tell you the odds of 1d20+/-dX just as easy or easier. And
even if those numbers aren't comparable, where the D6 system loses
hands down is when you want to know what your chances of average + 1
and average +2, etc., is.
So yes, given that piece of non evidence, it remains BS.
> It may well be easier to
> figure odds in Alternity with precision, but for far more people it's
> much easier to eyeball d6 rolls. If you think otherwise, ask around
> at a gaming convention some time. This has nothing to do with the
> ease of the math and everything to do with the fact that more people,
> even in gaming, are more familiar with d6s.
>
If they happen to play games that center around D6's. Not everyone
does. Perhaps you play in cirlces who do, but you, like Mr. Lim, are
universalizing.
> >
> >> For example, without even checking, I know
> >> the average with 4D6+2 is 16, and with 6D6 is 21...and that the
curve
> >> piles up reasonably heavy in those points. A D20-D8 is going to
> >> average around 6, but it's going to gust much more, and likely
isn't
> >> as amenable to eyeballing for most people.
> >>
> >
> >Again, BS. You had to figure 21 by 3.5 x 6. Alternity is easier, just
>
> No, actually, I just happened to remember.
Once I figured that out, I could just "remember" too.
> I've played enough D6
> based games over the years it's been convenient to know. On the other
> hand, most people haven't had to deal with subtracting or adding
> polyhedra very often, and when they have it's likely been the same
> kind of polyhedra.
It sounds like you are talking about people that play D6 and the Hero
system a lot. That does not describe the general gaming public.
> Kindly get off your hostility Alan and look at
> what I'm saying.
What you are saying, from all appearances, is that since you have
memorized all the pertinent D6 averages, that D6s are "more intuitive."
And I'm saying - and will continue to say - that such a statement is
non-sequitir and a mere universalization of a personal viewpoint.
Further, what you are not addressing at all is that not all (in fact,
very few )rolls have a 50/50 chance, and once you venture into that
territory, your knowledge of the average is useless.
> You're focusing on the mathematics; I'm talking
> about the reality of what people, gamers or not, are primarily used to
> working with in terms of randomizers.
>
And you are universalizing, and such a statement remains to be proven.
> >add to numbers - 10.5 - 4.5. Further, though you have the average
> >numbers for both now, what is the chance of the average number +1?
+2?
> >For alternity, that is trivial. For SW, hope you have a computer and
> >some programming skills handy.
>
> Since most of the time for the sort of evals people are doing on the
> fly they don't need to know the chance;
Wrong. As a GM, at the very least, you should have a fair idea of how
likely the players are to overcome any critical task. And unless you
can memorize or at least fairly accurately guess the odds associated
with all of the XD6 bell curves ever likely to be used in the game, D6
doesn't get it done.
Terry
> > fly they don't need to know the chance;
>
> Wrong. As a GM, at the very least, you should have a fair idea of how
> likely the players are to overcome any critical task. And unless you
> can memorize or at least fairly accurately guess the odds associated
> with all of the XD6 bell curves ever likely to be used in the game, D6
> doesn't get it done.
I hate six sided dice. They are just so common and boring, the shape of dice
is what interests many first time gamers.
That is not much of a point though.
So I'd have to say Alternity is not a dead horse, I like it. I've played
star wars and hated the system.
David Crowe
: I hate six sided dice. They are just so common and boring, the shape of dice
: is what interests many first time gamers.
Is it? That's a new one on me. Was anyone here lured to RPGs due to the
unusual dice? I'd have thought seeing the miniatures would be a stronger
draw.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"I guess justice comes before pastries."
-Umi Ryuzaki
bryan bankhead
<jet...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Is it? That's a new one on me. Was anyone here lured to RPGs due to the
>unusual dice? I'd have thought seeing the miniatures would be a stronger
>draw.
Actually for me it was the funny looking dice that made me ask the
people in my high school library circa 1976 what they were doing. This group
didn't use miniatures which admittedly was unusual for that era (but would
become much less so in only a few years.)
Nils K Hammer
I am certain that the dice played a large part in the total experience.
When I experimented long ago in ways to make games work better, I tried
to eliminate the dice and people were unhappy. They like to play with them
and look at them and use them as a focus for thoughts.
I never wanted to eliminate figures, but I got peeved when games were delayed
for an hour while they fussed over which one was which. I would bark
"use a wad of chewing gum!".
I can remember being surprised when the newer firmer dice showed up, the old
soft one were much less attractive, and the D20 turned into sphere before long.
The gem dice were an excellent idea, but dogs will eat them.
For more odd dice; Melee-Wizard is so simple that I was inspired one day by a
Roy Rogers hexagonal sandwich wrapper to play on the spot. I took wooden
pencils and wrote 1-6 on the sides and used them as dice. A pickle chip was
my playing piece. Few people share my enthusiasm for efficiency.
nils
Terry
the
> people in my high school library circa 1976 what they were doing. This
group
> didn't use miniatures which admittedly was unusual for that era (but would
> become much less so in only a few years.)
As if you would use miniatures at school, people would steal them!!!... Or
think you were playing toy soldiers.