Secret Service vs. Steve Jackson Games
R.B Franklin
Service awhile back. What was that all about?
R.B. Franklin
rand...@netcom.com
Kevin Mowery
: I have heard Steve Jackson Games got into a legal dispute with the Secret
: R.B. Franklin
: rand...@netcom.com
Well, as far as I understand it, SJG was writing GURPS Cyberpunk
(which is quite good, really). The Secret Service, who has joint
jurisdiction over computer crime cases with another group--maybe the FBI or
the phone cops or something--decided that GURPS Cyberpunk was a manual on
computer crime. Apparently the SS was unaware that a virtual reality
cyberspace net does not exist, much like most of the technology mentioned
in the book, and the book would therefore be useless as a manual for
hackers. Not to mention the hilarious vision of a group of hacker
wannabes confronted with the task of getting superuser access on a UNIX
system or something and staring intently at the screen while rolling three
dice and trying to get under their Computer Hacking skill, but I digress.
Anyway, armed with this faulty idea and the usual hardware and
fear that accompanies government agents, they confiscated SJG's hard
drives and whatnot.
In the only rational move by the government, either the SS settled
out of court or the courts decided that the SS was in the wrong.
Whatever, SJG won.
That's just the best of my recollection. Steve Jackson
occasionally lurks around here (as do several other folks who work or have
done work for SJG). I'm sure there's someone who knows all the details
I'm hazy on.
--
Kevin Mowery --- kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us__________________________
"We come into this world naked, covered in our own blood, and screaming in
terror--and it doesn't have to stop there if you know how to live right."
--Dana Gould
WinningerR
(which is quite good, really). The Secret Service, who has joint
jurisdiction over computer crime cases with another group--maybe the FBI
or
the phone cops or something--decided that GURPS Cyberpunk was a manual on
computer crime.<<<
Our federal government is out of control, but has yet to reach these
heights.
The SJG vs Secret Service incident had nothing to do with GURPS Cyberpunk.
For an excellently written account of the whole story, read Bruce
Sterling's THE HACKER CRACKDOWN.
Shouldn't this be in a FAQ or something?
Timothy Toner
WinningerR <winni...@aol.com> wrote:
>Our federal government is out of control, but has yet to reach these
>heights.
>
>The SJG vs Secret Service incident had nothing to do with GURPS Cyberpunk.
>For an excellently written account of the whole story, read Bruce
>Sterling's THE HACKER CRACKDOWN.
>
Not entirely true...well, at least, not anymore. The circumstances of
that _case_ have little if anything to do with GURPS Cyberpunk. However,
recently, the Secret Service has received a shot in the arm when it comes
to "on line fear and loathing," so they can spew more puerile falsehoods
in the name of national security and Senator Exon. In particuar, about
2 months back, 60 Minutes had a piece about the InterNet and privacy issues,
and went straight to the Secret Service for the skinny. The SS proudly
displayed their "hacker Handbooks," and in a tape that was filmed AFTER
the decision, GURPS Cyberpunk was right there.
Although it wasn't an issue when the SS raided the place, the SS _have_
made an issue out of it since. THat's good enough in my book.
Rennie Steve
> Date: Sun, 2 JUL 1995 15:32:49 GMT
> From: R.B Franklin <rand...@netcom.com>
> Newgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
> Subject: Secret Service vs. Steve Jackson Games
>
> I have heard Steve Jackson Games got into a legal dispute with the Secret
> Service awhile back. What was that all about?
>
> R.B. Franklin
> rand...@netcom.com
If you gopher to the Wiretap and look under Electronic Library, you'll
find a beautifully written essay on that very topic.
*****************************************************************
*** Steve Rennie *** CJAM-fm 91.5 Windsor ***
*** "Help! Help! I'm being *** Disorder on the Border ***
*** repressed !!" *** -the best in eclectic sound***
*****************************************************************
WinningerR
made an issue out of it since. <<<
I saw that piece. At best, the SS has made an extremely minor issue of the
whole thing, a far cry from seizing property and breaking into offices in
the middle of the night.
In any case, it isn't clear who supplied that videotape -- the whole thing
may have been the work of a 60 minutes producer. (The whole segment was
just absolutely awful and poorly researched. )
Kevin Mowery
: >>>Although it wasn't an issue when the SS raided the place, the SS _have_
Most news segments on the internet are bloody awful. Witness the
recent hysteria that you can find anarchist materials on the internet--if
you know where to look. (No mention that you can find them in the library
if you can use their computers or card catalog or ask a librarian.) Or
the big news story on the front page of USA Today a couple of weeks
ago--there are dirty pictures you can download (everyone who had the old
CGA strip poker games, raise your hand).
People seem to have this strange idea that the internet is just
going to leak stuff into their homes...
Tom Grant
than...@psycfrnd.interaccess.com writes:
>Not entirely true...well, at least, not anymore. The circumstances of
>that _case_ have little if anything to do with GURPS Cyberpunk. However,
>recently, the Secret Service has received a shot in the arm when it comes
>to "on line fear and loathing," so they can spew more puerile falsehoods
>in the name of national security and Senator Exon. In particuar, about
>2 months back, 60 Minutes had a piece about the InterNet and privacy
issues,
>and went straight to the Secret Service for the skinny. The SS proudly
>displayed their "hacker Handbooks," and in a tape that was filmed AFTER
>the decision, GURPS Cyberpunk was right there.
>
they're still toting around GURPS Cyberpunk as "a manual on computer
crime"? SJ, if you're listening, I hope there's some way to sue them
about this.
=================================================
"I've got to follow them. I'm their leader."
--Ledru-Rollin,
watching the mob, 1848
-------------------------------------------------
Tom Grant Senior Tech Writer
CSSD
Oracle Corporation
tgr...@us.oracle.com
415-506-8481
=================================================
Paul F. Glenn
Cyberpunk--that's what SJ himself wrote in the intro to that book. The
only files that were seized from the company were the ones involving
Cyberpunk. Unless SJ himmself doesn't know what's going on (which I
seriously doubt), then the raid did involve GURPS Cyberpunk.
Mike Swaim
: The SJG vs Secret Service incident had nothing to do with GURPS Cyberpunk.
: For an excellently written account of the whole story, read Bruce
: Sterling's THE HACKER CRACKDOWN.
Actually, it does. Among the things that the SS took were all existant
copies of Gurps Cyberpunk (both on disk and on paper). I remember logging
onto the BBS shortly afterward, and seeing a plea for beta testers to
send in their copies, because SJG didn't have the final draft anymore.
--
Mike "Agent of Chaos" Swaim | sw...@phoenix.net | disclamer: I lie.
Considering today's congress, I'm suprised that a witch hasn't decided
that she needs an "eye of Newt."
Matt Korth
_GURPS Cyberpunk_ was involved, but only peripherally. It was used as a
sort of smokescreen to give the SS justification for the raid.
If I remember correctly, the whole thing was started off by a hacker making
off with the "E911 document" from a BellSouth computer system. He posted it
to a BBS in Illinois, and the document eventually made its way to the
Phoenix BBS in Austin. Phoenix was run by Loyd Blankenship; Blankenship
worked at SJG.
In addition, the hacker who stole the E911 document in the first place had
his GURPS notes mixed in with his hacking notes.
Dontcha just love governmental logic?
Of course, since Blankenship ran Phoenix and was a sysop on the Illuminati
BBS at SJG, naturally SJG must be involved somehow. And since the original
hacker played GURPS (but--and here's a shocker--wasn't *organized*), that
sorta sealed SJG's fate.
From what I could tell, the computers and other material were seized simply
to cover the fact that the agents involved made a sloppy investigation--the
case in point being the patently ridiculous claim that _GURPS Cyberpunk_ was
"a manual for computer crime."
Someone else has suggested it, but I'll say it again: read _The Hacker
Crackdown_ by Bruce Sterling. It concerns itself with more than the SJG
case, but it has a fairly substantial section on SJG. You might also read
the actual decision (which can be found at
ftp://ftp.eff.org/pub/SJG/SJG-decision, unless they've moved it).
WinningerR
Cyberpunk--that's what SJ himself wrote in the intro to that book. The
only files that were seized from the company were the ones involving
Cyberpunk.<<<
Entire computers were seized containing hundreds of files. Only a small
fraction of the seized files pertained to GURPS Cyberpunk and these were
not the files the Secret Service was looking for.
What exactly did Steve Jackson write in that intro?
WinningerR
Illuminati
BBS at SJG, naturally SJG must be involved somehow. And since the
original
hacker played GURPS (but--and here's a shocker--wasn't *organized*), that
sorta sealed SJG's fate.<<<
Actually, at the time they broke into SJG HQ, there's little evidence that
the Secret Service had any idea what GURPS was.
While the Secret Service certainly went well beyond its constitutional
bounds in the case, this was a situation in which nearly everyone involved
(except Steve Jackson himself and SJG) must share some of the
responsibility for this fiasco -- the "hackers" who recklessly violated
the law and dared the authorities to stop them, the Secret Service,
various law enforcement agencies, and especially the telcos.
After all, you can almost understand why the Secret Service reacted as
they did. Telephone company security personnel told them that hackers had
stolen important documents describing the operation of the 911 nationwide
emergency phone system (actually, the stolen documents were totally
unimportant and contained no information of real value). The telcos also
told the government that "hackers" had already interrupted phone service
on a national level (it was later discovered that buggy computer software
was the real culprit in this case) and that the hackers were threatening
to do the same thing to the 911 service (this part was apparently true).
If I'm your average fed, I hear this tale, and I'm inclined to believe
the phone company specialists (and if I'm a fed, I am probably so
inclined), I hit the roof and drop on the suspects like a ton of bricks.
Alexander Shearer
: I have heard Steve Jackson Games got into a legal dispute with the Secret
: R.B. Franklin
: rand...@netcom.com
Okay, since people who've followed-up don't have it quite right, here
it is:
Yes, it does have to do with GURPS: Cyberpunk, and here's why:
In writing GURPS: Cyberpunk, Loyd Blankenship (the author - not SJ)
accessed info from various people, including security experts and people
who called themselves hackers - he also ran a BBS which discussed the
hacking community. Boom. Instant blacklist (so to speak). The
affidavit for the raid on the SJG offices was based on the following:
Loyd Blankenship ran a BBS that discussed hacking, and reposted one
hacker newsletter.
Loyd Blankenship was working at SJG, and writing a book for them.
Obviously, SJG had to have their computers taken to stop this evil
from coming to print - and lo, it came to be (did I mention the warrant
was sealed?). The GURPS: Cyberpunk you can now buy was recreated from
various early manuscript segments and playtest notes.
Regardless, SJG sued the SS, and won. The actual "victory" money was
a scant $4,000...but an additional couple of hundred thousand was awarded
to pay for damages and legal fees. Woo woo.
Alex Shearer
ga...@netcom.com
(BTW: I often like government...but the SS is on the goon list, right
there with the ATF and a big chunk of the Ministry of the Interior. For
god's sake, can't the SS just hire one $#&*ing CS major and stop being
clueless?)
Deird'Re M. Brooks
> I thought that the SS raid on SJ Games did involve GURPS
>Cyberpunk--that's what SJ himself wrote in the intro to that book. The
>only files that were seized from the company were the ones involving
>Cyberpunk. Unless SJ himmself doesn't know what's going on (which I
>seriously doubt), then the raid did involve GURPS Cyberpunk.
They seized everything they could grab...including Fearless Leader's
orange slices.
Yes, this was the older version of Illuminati Online when they had that
multi-node thing running, every other computer in the building, and
several manuscripts.
Somewhere, a copy of SJG's original letter to the gaming community may
still be floating around. I remember when I first read it...it was
surreal. At first, I thought it was a joke.
Deird'Re
Mike Swaim
: Entire computers were seized containing hundreds of files. Only a small
: fraction of the seized files pertained to GURPS Cyberpunk and these were
: not the files the Secret Service was looking for.
They also siezed all the paper copies of GURPS Cyberpunk. Since it was
a work in progress, it required a seperate, special warrent, which the SS
also failed to get.
WinningerR
copies of Gurps Cyberpunk (both on disk and on paper). I remember logging
onto the BBS shortly afterward, and seeing a plea for beta testers to
send in their copies, because SJG didn't have the final draft anymore.<<<
Tons of materials were seized. The GURPS material was not the target of
the raid.
WinningerR
accessed info from various people, including security experts and people
who called themselves hackers - he also ran a BBS which discussed the
hacking community. Boom. Instant blacklist (so to speak). The
affidavit for the raid on the SJG offices was based on the following:<<<
No. Blankenship's activities in the "hacker community" began long before
his involvement with GURPS Cyberpunk, and the BBS he ran (Austin's Phoenix
Project) was not established for the purpose of assisting in GURPS
Cyberpunk (though it may have been used in that regard at some point).
>>>Obviously, SJG had to have their computers taken to stop this evil
from coming to print.<<<
Again, not true. At the time they broke into SJG's office, the Secret
Service had never heard of GURPS Cyberpunk. They were after copies of the
E911 document that had been lifted from a Bell South computer and
transmitted electronically all over creation. Portions of the document
were being distributed on the Phoenix Project BBS. As Blankenship was a
sysop on another BBS (SJG's Illuminati) and a "known hacker" (whatever
that means), the Secret Service seized Illuminati along with practically
every computer in the SJG offices.
Again, read THE HACKER CRACKDOWN. Somebody compile a FAQ!
William Reed
: Deird'Re
--
WM Reed
wmr...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
"You may be big, but I'm small!" - Daffy Duck to the Shropshire Slasher
Mike Patterson
[thread deleted]
>Entire computers were seized containing hundreds of files. Only a small
>fraction of the seized files pertained to GURPS Cyberpunk and these were
>not the files the Secret Service was looking for.
>
>What exactly did Steve Jackson write in that intro?
I just happen to have my copy of GURPS Cyberpunk right here, so...
On the front cover, in an Illuminati-style pyramid with eye:
"The book that was seized by the U.S. Secret Service! (See p. 4)"
Turning to p. 4, one sees:
". . . On March 1, the SJ Games office, and the home of the GURPS
Cyberpunk writer, were raided by the U.S. Secret Service as a part of a
nationwide investigation of data piracy. A large amount of equipment was
seized, including four computers, two laser printers, some loose hard
disks and a great deal of assorted hardware. One of the computers was
the one running the Illuminati BBS.
The _only computers taken were those with the GURPS Cyberpunk files_
[emphasis mine]; other systems were left in place. In their diligent
search for evidence, the agents also cut off locks, forced open
footlockers, tore up dozens of boxes in the warehouse, and bent two of
out letter openers in an attempt to pick the lock on a file cabinet.
. . . In the course of that visit, it became clear that the
investigating agents considered GURPS Cyberpunk to be 'a handbook for
computer crime'. . . A repeated comment by the agents was 'this is real'."
It goes on to describe how Lloyd Blankenship had done research for the
book, including talking to members of the digital underground on his BBS,
and reposting a copy of Phrack.
This introduction was written by Steve Jackson, and thus is likely
somewhat biased (tongue in cheek mode ;) ), but nevertheless, is most
probably fairly accurate.
In readings on related government raids, I found that the US SS grabbed
such electronic items as answering machines (OK, maybe hackers are
leaving messages to each other and are stupid enough to keep them
around), microwave ovens (they're microwaving hacker pizza?), cordless
phones (umm, I know you want the gun as evidence in a murder case, but
the phone as evidence in a phreak case? Please... ;) ), etc.
With all this said, perhaps the discussion should be taken to email, or,
better, dropped.
I return you to your regular rec.games.frp.misc discussion.
--
Mike Patterson - q8...@unb.ca / mp...@nbnet.nb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Robbie Westmoreland
Deird'Re M. Brooks <mar...@netcom.com> wrote:
>pgl...@orion.it.luc.edu (Paul F. Glenn) writes:
>
>> I thought that the SS raid on SJ Games did involve GURPS
>>Cyberpunk--that's what SJ himself wrote in the intro to that book. The
>>only files that were seized from the company were the ones involving
>>Cyberpunk. Unless SJ himmself doesn't know what's going on (which I
>>seriously doubt), then the raid did involve GURPS Cyberpunk.
>
>They seized everything they could grab...including Fearless Leader's
>orange slices.
Actually, what was taken was the key to the captain's locker, where
he kept his orange slices. They were conspiring against him from
the beginning, you know. All of them.
I understand that Steve Jackson had personally hacked into secret
government computers and taken the top secret plans for the assassination
of George Bush. The FBI was going to use Dan Quayle as a puppet president,
because we all know that blonde presidents are much easier to control.
Unfortunately for them, Lloyd Blankenship is a member of the super-secret
control arm of the U.N., known only as the LoD (some claim that this
stands for Legion of Doom, but the truth is only known to four people
worldwide since the death of Roger Zelazny). Lloyd caught wind of the
FBI plot and with subtle hints maneuvered Steve Jackson into blowing
the whole thing wide open.
Now, the FBI couldn't just come out and admit to something like this,
so they cooked up the whole "E911" thing with some insiders at BellSouth.
The poor dupes who were arrested in Atlanta weren't actually associated
with the LoD at all. The Secret Service was thus just another pawn, one
not completely under the control of any of the players in the game.
The upshot of this all was that Steve Jackson's company was in dire
financial straits for a while. Secret operatives for White Wolf were
controlling Steve Jackson's financial advisor, I.M. Wyrm, and the company
was relying on GURPS: Cyberpunk to provide a much-needed infusion of cash.
Looks like the Wieck plot worked out better than originally hoped. Of
course, there was also a THIRD computer company on the grassy knoll (and
one lurking in the underpass), in case the first two plots failed.
All of this will be fully documented in the upcoming Over the Edge
supplement _Steve Jackson and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad
Day_.
--
Robbie Westmoreland, Dilletante | I am not humble. There, I said it.
rob...@phoenix.net | They're MY opinions, dammit, and I
rob...@txs.uscourts.gov | mean them. They may be wrong, and
http://www.phoenix.net/~robbiew/ | they may change, but they're mine!
WinningerR
somewhat biased (tongue in cheek mode ;) ), but nevertheless, is most
probably fairly accurate.<<<
Seems accurate to me (at least, as far as Bruce Sterling's account is
concerned), though it does tend to falsely imply that GURPS Cyberpunk was
Mike Patterson
Falsely by who's account? Sterling's? Where did he get his information
from? By the SS's account? I think it has been safely established that
the United States Secret Service does not always tell the truth. I
should think that Jackson and those SS agents involved would know best...
and the SS wouldn't say anything that would make them look bad and/or
stupid. (Just playing the devil's advocate here, I don't really know
myself what is the truth... I'm inclined to believe the SS got excited,
grabbed too much, and can't find any way to back out and 'save face'.)
Ross Smith
>>>>This introduction was written by Steve Jackson, and thus is likely
>somewhat biased (tongue in cheek mode ;) ), but nevertheless, is most
>probably fairly accurate.<<<
>
>Seems accurate to me (at least, as far as Bruce Sterling's account is
>concerned), though it does tend to falsely imply that GURPS Cyberpunk was
>the target of the raid.
Ah ... I don't want to sound rude here, Mr Winninger sir, but surely
Steve Jackson is in a better position to know than either Bruce
Sterling or you?
--
..... Ross Smith (Wellington, NZ) ..... al...@meanmach.actrix.gen.nz .....
"Look -- there must be an easier way to world conquest than
dealing with actors and marketing people." -- Neil Gaiman
shalon dale wood
: Regardless, SJG sued the SS, and won. The actual "victory" money was
: a scant $4,000...but an additional couple of hundred thousand was awarded
: to pay for damages and legal fees. Woo woo.
Um, no. The victory money was $52,xxx. (I worked in a law firm for
about a year, and got curious. I looked it up.)
WinningerR
information
from?<<<
Hundreds of interviews, declassified documents, and the transcripts of
various court cases. His account was quite thorough.
Another poster:
>>>Ah ... I don't want to sound rude here, Mr Winninger sir, but surely
Steve Jackson is in a better position to know than either Bruce
Sterling or you?<<<
See my reply above. A large part of Sterling's information comes from
Steve Jackson (while he wasn't wearing his marketing hat) -- the two are
said to be friends.
Again, the idea that federal government mobilized enormous resources
simply to prevent the publication of a role playing supplement may make a
good "net.story" but it's a long way from the truth.
Curtis Shenton
>>>>Falsely by who's account? Sterling's? Where did he get his
>information
>from?<<<
>
>Hundreds of interviews, declassified documents, and the transcripts of
>various court cases. His account was quite thorough.
>
>Another poster:
>>>>Ah ... I don't want to sound rude here, Mr Winninger sir, but surely
>Steve Jackson is in a better position to know than either Bruce
>Sterling or you?<<<
>
>See my reply above. A large part of Sterling's information comes from
>Steve Jackson (while he wasn't wearing his marketing hat) -- the two are
>said to be friends.
I'm pretty sure this discussion is based around the fact that in the
intro to GURPS Cyberpunk SJ said that this book was the reason for the
raid. As I recall at that point in time the SS had not explained the
nature of the raid but had pointed to the Cyberpunk manuscript as a
"manual for hackers" Later in court the reason for the raid was made
clear. So at the time when the book was published the best theory as to
the nature of the raid was that they had been after GURPS Cyberpunk.
>
--
Curtis Shenton cur...@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
Journalists are the roadkill of the Information Superhighway.
Robbie Westmoreland
Ross Smith <AL...@meanmach.actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>R Winninger writes:
>>>>>This introduction was written by Steve Jackson, and thus is likely
>>somewhat biased (tongue in cheek mode ;) ), but nevertheless, is most
>>probably fairly accurate.<<<
>>
>>Seems accurate to me (at least, as far as Bruce Sterling's account is
>>concerned), though it does tend to falsely imply that GURPS Cyberpunk was
>>the target of the raid.
>
>Steve Jackson is in a better position to know than either Bruce
>Sterling or you?
Well, considering that Bruce and Steve are fairly close associates (I'd
say friends, but I don't actually know that for a fact - I do know that
they're both on the board of EFF-Austin...), it seems likely that Bruce
and Steve know very similar things about the whole mess. I know several
of the attorneys who participated in the case, and at least one of the
other parties in the complaint is a sometime participant of this newsgroup,
and I've never heard any of them claim that the raid was about GURPS
Cyberpunk. Rather, the raid happened upon GURPS Cyberpunk, and the people
in the raid decided that it must be important (the target of the raid was,
specifically, the Illuminati BBS and related files).
If people here are interested in the FACTS, the whole schmeer is described
in excruciating detail on the EFF web site:
http://www.eff.org/
WinningerR
intro to GURPS Cyberpunk SJ said that this book was the reason for the
raid.<<<
It doesn't quite say that, but it certainly implies it. I put this down to
marketing.
>>>As I recall at that point in time the SS had not explained the
nature of the raid but had pointed to the Cyberpunk manuscript as a
"manual for hackers"<<<
This is one of the mysteries surrounding the case that I've never figured
out. Sterling says in his book that Jackson had no idea why he was raided
for several months. Yet I know that the day after it happened, when I
heard about it through the game industry grapevine, I already heard that
"it had something to do with computer hackers, a BBS run by a SJG
employee, and the 911 phone system." I'm asuming that this information
must have come from somebody at SJG (though it was obviously degraded by
the "telephone game" played between the time it left SJG and the time it
reached me). Basically, the possibilities are:
1) An SJG employee knew something about why the company was raided and
never communicated this to Jackson. (Not very likely).
2) The information floating through the game industry grapevine actually
came from a source inside the Secret Service (also not very likely).
3) When Sterling says Jackson didn't know what the raid was about, he
means that Jackson had no official confirmation of the raid's target,
though Jackson had heard rumors of the 911 document, et al as early as the
first day.
George W Harris
>>
>>They seized everything they could grab...including Fearless Leader's
>>orange slices.
>
>Actually, what was taken was the key to the captain's locker, where
>he kept his orange slices. They were conspiring against him from
>the beginning, you know. All of them.
Strawberries! It was strawberries!
>Robbie Westmoreland, Dilletante | I am not humble. There, I said it.
>rob...@phoenix.net | They're MY opinions, dammit, and I
--
George W. Harris gha...@emerald.tufts.edu
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
Tim and Stacey Dunn
> They also siezed all the paper copies of GURPS Cyberpunk. Since it was
>a work in progress, it required a seperate, special warrent,
Was the "works in progress" protection enacted prior to the raid? I
was under the impression that it was percipitated by this action.
Tim
--
Laws of Japanese Animation: [by rshellit|dbr...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu]
#11 - Law of Inherent Combustability
Everything explodes. Everything.
Tracy Ratcliff
Tim and Stacey Dunn <td...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Mike Swaim <sw...@phoenix.net> wrote:
>> They also siezed all the paper copies of GURPS Cyberpunk. Since it was
>>a work in progress, it required a seperate, special warrent,
>
>Was the "works in progress" protection enacted prior to the raid? I
>was under the impression that it was percipitated by this action.
>
dated back two centuries. As I remember, the judge's statement talked
about, as an example, things set up in type but not printed and extended
the principle to works on a disk not yet sent to the printer.
Robbie Westmoreland
Tim Dunn <td...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Mike Swaim <sw...@phoenix.net> wrote:
>> They also siezed all the paper copies of GURPS Cyberpunk. Since it was
>>a work in progress, it required a seperate, special warrent,
>
>Was the "works in progress" protection enacted prior to the raid? I
>was under the impression that it was percipitated by this action.
It was enacted prior to the raid. It was _invoked_ AFTER the raid, when
lawyers went over things to determine the propriety of the seizures.
The act is the Publisher Protection Act of 197x, if I'm not mistaken.
Mike is a bit incorrect. Publisher's works don't require a special
warrant; they require a subpoena, and even then can only be copied,
not confiscated. The government was clearly in the wrong there. The
other issue in the trial was protection of email on the BBS under the
Eletronic Communications Privacy Act of 198x.
However, it was clear in the trial that no one on the government team
that was involved in the case had any idea that Steve Jackson Games
was a publisher. Evidently, they thought SJG made computer games.
Therefore, the raid could NOT have been targetting GURPS Cyberpunk
until AFTER the officials entered the building and began looking at
what was lying around.
There are many answers to these questions available on the EFF web
site: http://www.eff.org
--
Robbie Westmoreland, Dilletante | I am not humble. There, I said it.
rob...@phoenix.net | They're MY opinions, dammit, and I
Tim and Stacey Dunn
So this was perhaps the first interpertation of that law into a computer
"crime"? I'm not disagreeing, I"m trying to reconstruct why I was
under that mistaken impression.
Mike Swaim
: Mike Swaim <sw...@phoenix.net> wrote:
: > They also siezed all the paper copies of GURPS Cyberpunk. Since it was
: >a work in progress, it required a seperate, special warrent,
: Was the "works in progress" protection enacted prior to the raid? I
: was under the impression that it was percipitated by this action.
It's been around since the '70's at least. The origonal
intent was to protect newspapers and magazines.
--
Mike "Agent of Chaos" Swaim | sw...@phoenix.net | disclamer: I lie.
"I can see clearly now my brain is gone.
I can see all the bicycles in my way."
Mike Swaim
: >Tim and Stacey Dunn <td...@netcom.com> wrote:
: So this was perhaps the first interpertation of that law into a computer
: "crime"? I'm not disagreeing, I"m trying to reconstruct why I was
: under that mistaken impression.
I don't think that SJG did anything about that. They did file a suit
against the SS based on the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (think
that's the name) because the SS took their BBS. They won on most counts,
and the judge scolded everybody on the SS side of the raid. That's
probably what you've heard about. Last I heard, SJG is appealing the part
of the ruling that they lost. The Secret Service did not file an appeal.
Robbie might know more.
Matt Korth
> I don't think that SJG did anything about that. They did file a suit
>against the SS based on the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (think
>that's the name) because the SS took their BBS. They won on most counts,
>and the judge scolded everybody on the SS side of the raid. That's
>probably what you've heard about. Last I heard, SJG is appealing the part
>of the ruling that they lost. The Secret Service did not file an appeal.
>Robbie might know more.
SJG accused the SS of having made a search and seizure based on an
improperly issued warrant. They lost on that count. If memory serves (it's
been a while since I read the decision), the judge ruled that even though
Foley & Crew's investigation work had been sloppy, the warrant had still
been applied in "good faith".
--
mko...@mail.alliance.net
"We are we,/We are we,/Resistance is futility!
Even though I'm the dinosaur you hate,/You will still ASSIMILATE!"
--Eric Oppen from ab4d, on what happens when the Borg assimilate Barney