16-sided Dice?
celtict
the new Button Men from Cheapass Games show a 16 in their composition.
Am I missing something?
Anthony R.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dave Van Domelen
celtict <webguyN...@roleplaynews.com.invalid> wrote:
>Does anybody know where to get 16-sided dice or if they exist. Some of
>the new Button Men from Cheapass Games show a 16 in their composition.
>Am I missing something?
Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
and don't count anything over 16.
Dave Van Domelen, likes the d7....
David R. Henry
>>Does anybody know where to get 16-sided dice or if they exist. Some of
>>the new Button Men from Cheapass Games show a 16 in their composition.
>>Am I missing something?
>
> Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
>at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
>and don't count anything over 16.
Or roll a d8 and a d6 (or any other die). Low on the d6 means a normal
d8, high on the d6 means you add 8 to what the d8 rolled.
--
dhe...@plains.nodak.edu * Lion Clan Nezumi * Rogue Fan Club * Fallen Writer
*** Now in scientifically perfected, eye-resting, full sepia Monocolor! ***
What was the question? --Kate Bush /// All you of Earth are IDIOTS! --P9fOS
Dave Van Domelen
Steffan O'Sullivan <s...@katie.vnet.net> wrote:
>Dave Van Domelen <dva...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
>>at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
>>and don't count anything over 16.
>
>it's far better to throw a d8 with another die: if the other die is
>odd, read the d8 1-8; if the other die is even, add +8 to the d8. You
>don't have to reroll 20% of the time that way.
In general, yeah...but for Button Men, it's easier to just say "this die
is a d16" for scoring purposes. }->
Dave Van Domelen, also has a d50 and a d34....
Steffan O'Sullivan
>
> Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
>at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
>and don't count anything over 16.
I have a d16 from Zocchi, indeed. But if you want to simulate a d16,
it's far better to throw a d8 with another die: if the other die is
odd, read the d8 1-8; if the other die is even, add +8 to the d8. You
don't have to reroll 20% of the time that way.
--
-Steffan O'Sullivan | "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and
s...@vnet.net | narrow-mindedness, and many of our people
Plymouth, NH, USA | need it sorely on these accounts."
www.io.com/~sos | -Mark Twain
celtict
I wanted to have my facts straight.
Douglas Bailey
> Dave Van Domelen, also has a d50 and a d34....
One of my players has a golf ball on which -- using an *extremely*
fine-tipped permanent marker and a lot of patience -- he's numbered
every dimple. So he now has, I believe, the only d336 in existence.
(Of course, if rolled, it'll *never* stop, but that's a triviality
compared to the difficulties involved with finding a practical use for
a d336.)
doug
--
--------------douglas bailey (trys...@ne.mediaone.net)--------------
this week dragged past me so slowly; the days fell on their knees...
--david bowie
Steffan O'Sullivan
>is a d16" for scoring purposes. }->
I suppose so, though I don't like Button Men, so I guess it didn't
occur to me.
> Dave Van Domelen, also has a d50 and a d34....
I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made to roll
3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
even spread, of course ...
I haven't seen a d50, though - who made that and why?
David R. Henry
>I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made to roll
>3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
>a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
>reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
>even spread, of course ...
I had always heard that the d34 was made because 1st edition AD&D
had 34 first level magic user spells, and thus you could roll this
to easily randomize them. Hmm.
Flex Mentallo
<83bni4$m...@plains.nodak.edu>:
>Steffan O'Sullivan writes:
>
>>I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made to roll
>>3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
>>a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
>>reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
>>even spread, of course ...
>
>I had always heard that the d34 was made because 1st edition AD&D
>had 34 first level magic user spells, and thus you could roll this
>to easily randomize them. Hmm.
>
And for more "Hmm" action, I understood that they were originally
manufactured for bettors in a European country's national lottery, in which
you needed to match numbers between 1 and 34. My memory says the
Netherlands or Denmark...
--
Flex Mentallo
Man of Muscle Mystery
"He can cloud men's minds with his biceps."
Ed Chauvin IV
rec.games.frp.misc, Steffan O'Sullivan used a less than adequate
newsreader trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
to describe Re: 16-sided Dice?
>Dave Van Domelen <dva...@eyrie.org> wrote:
>> In general, yeah...but for Button Men, it's easier to just say "this die
>>is a d16" for scoring purposes. }->
>
>I suppose so, though I don't like Button Men, so I guess it didn't
>occur to me.
>
>> Dave Van Domelen, also has a d50 and a d34....
>
>I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made to roll
>3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
>a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
>reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
>even spread, of course ...
For generating (N)PC stats based on %. You'd get most of your results
near the middle, and could add points for PCs.
>I haven't seen a d50, though - who made that and why?
Got me.
Ed Chauvin IV
--
As our bodies are armoured with adamantium, our souls are protected
with our loyalty. As our bolters are charged with death for the
Emperor's enemies, our thoughts are charged with his wisdom. As our
ranks advance, so does our devotion, for are we not Marines? Are we
not the chosen of the Emperor, his loyal servants unto death?
-Chaplain Fergus Nils
An address to the defenders of Portrein.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made
>to roll 3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100.
When I saw a d34 (I still regret not buying it), it was advertized as
good for rolling Lotto numbers -- at the time, Lotto numbers in
Denmark were in the 1-34 range.
>I haven't seen a d50, though - who made that and why?
I haven't seen it, but unless it is made using the same method as the
d34 (and a d10), all the faces can't be equivalent, and thus the
probability of landing on different types of faces may depend on how
you roll it (this goes for the d7 too, unless it is made as a roll
with 7 curved, lozenge-shaped faces).
The following link is to an article that shows what dice are possible
that are provably fair, with pictures. I'd like to see one of the d24s
produced.
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dice.htm
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
klau...@get2net.dk
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius
The Moving Finger writes, and having writ, Moves on
Dave Van Domelen
Zocchi (of course) and "because." Essentially it's two cones joined
together. Then there's almost invisible little nubs along the circular edge
that will cause it to settle on a single number as long as you don't shake
the table. Because it's based on the joined cones shape rather than a
truncated sphere (like the golfball mentioned earlier, or the d100), it will
stop without going off the table. Zocchi said he made the d34 more for
d100/3-style stuff, or rolling days of the month (roll d12 and d34, instant
calendar date).
The "Crystal Dice" introduced at Origins can theoretically handle any
even number, since they're basically cylindrical in plan. Zocchi prefers the
joined cones plan to the cylinder, as he considers the cylinder to be
cheating. }->
Zocchi's d7 is basically a pentagonal prism. Pips for 1-5 are placed on
the edges rather than the sides, since you'll get a point facing up. The
numbers are each a different color, so you can tell them apart. Then 6 and 7
are written as numbers on the pentagonal faces. I've done some statistical
testing, and they're fair out to P<.001, although I'd have designed them with
1 and 7 on the pentagonal faces, just in case there was some small bias
either towards or against landing on the pentagonal faces.
Dave Van Domelen, also has a d4 that lands face up, it's a game piece
from the 4-player Othello-variant "Rolit"
Steve Saunders
: (Of course, if rolled, it'll *never* stop, but that's a triviality
: compared to the difficulties involved with finding a practical use for
: a d336.)
I used to be a mathematical purist... but I've mellowed, an can compromise
for this one. With the d336, roll a d6 read as a d3:
1-2 add 0
3-4 add 332
5-6 add 664
Of course, 3d10 makes a "better" d1000, but...
- Steve S.
Tenzhi the Ti Hsien
Here's a question, where can a person obtain Zocchi dice?
john v verkuilen
>>3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
>>a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
>>reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
>>even spread, of course ...
>For generating (N)PC stats based on %. You'd get most of your results
>near the middle, and could add points for PCs.
True, but 5d20 is probably about as good. The means are close (52.5 for 5d20
vs. 50.5 for 3d34-2). 5d20 has less variation though (sd 9.74 vs 17.0).
I think people own these sorts of dice for the same reason they own desk
toys.
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
There is no such thing as the Law of Small Numbers.--Kahneman & Tversky
Alan Kellogg
<webguyN...@roleplaynews.com.invalid> wrote:
> Does anybody know where to get 16-sided dice or if they exist. Some of
> the new Button Men from Cheapass Games show a 16 in their composition.
> Am I missing something?
>
> Anthony R.
>
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Game Science once made a d16. Don't know if anybody still has them, but
look around on the net.
Alan
--
You can't be a figment of my imagination,
I would've done a better job. A Nonny Mouse
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>Zocchi's d7 is basically a pentagonal prism. Pips for 1-5 are placed
on
>the edges rather than the sides, since you'll get a point facing up.
The
>numbers are each a different color, so you can tell them apart. Then
6 and 7
>are written as numbers on the pentagonal faces. I've done some
statistical
>testing, and they're fair out to P<.001, although I'd have designed
them with
>1 and 7 on the pentagonal faces, just in case there was some small
bias
>either towards or against landing on the pentagonal faces.
Did you test them using a cup, or rolling them by hand? I expect that
in the latter case, the edges will come up a lot more often than the
pentagonal faces, since the die will tend to roll as a wheel.
That is the problem with dice where the faces aren't totally
equivalent: How you roll them may affect the statistical outcome.
Torben AEgidius Mogensen
>And for more "Hmm" action, I understood that they [d34] were originally
>manufactured for bettors in a European country's national lottery, in which
>you needed to match numbers between 1 and 34. My memory says the
>Netherlands or Denmark...
Denmark is it. The dice were made by Dan-tern, which IIRC supplied TSR
with dice after TSR dropped the soft plastic dice.
Anyway, now Denmark uses 36 numbers in the lottery, so the d34's
aren't useful for this anymore. I don't believe a d36 has been made
for use with the new lottery.
Torben Mogensen (tor...@diku.dk)
Ross W. Maker
>
> Who is Zocchi? I'd be interested in getting some of those d7's for
> GURPS. Then I won't have dumb aholes telling me that what I really
> mean is 1d8 -1...
Lou Zocchi, prsident of Gamescience, is the man who first manufactured
polyhedral dice in the US. He is also a long time gaming personality
and game designer.
And Tenzhi the Ti Hsien wrote:
>
> Here's a question, where can a person obtain Zocchi dice?
Gamescience
7604 Newton Dr.
Biloxi, MS
39532-2830
RWM
James Mcadams
Douglas Bailey <trys...@ne.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>One of my players has a golf ball on which -- using an *extremely*
>fine-tipped permanent marker and a lot of patience -- he's numbered
>every dimple. So he now has, I believe, the only d336 in existence.
Hmmm - I recall hearing years ago that different golf balls
have a different number of dimples (design differences from various
brands). I wonder if there's a 365+ dimple golf ball out there.
Julian date generator, anyone? *grin*
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim McAdams | Do,
jmca...@interaccess.com | or Do Not.
630-859-6902 | There is no "Try". - Yoda
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Van Domelen
Klaus Æ. Mogensen <klau...@get2net.dk> wrote:
>Did you test them using a cup, or rolling them by hand? I expect that
>in the latter case, the edges will come up a lot more often than the
>pentagonal faces, since the die will tend to roll as a wheel.
>
>That is the problem with dice where the faces aren't totally
>equivalent: How you roll them may affect the statistical outcome.
By hand, with a toss as likely to generate an "edge" result as I could
manage. I was trying to break the curve, basically. The wheel-like rolling
is rather unstable...unless it hits the table completely flat, it'll start
bouncing around sideways and stuff.
In any case, the sides are equivalent (same surface area), my main
concern was that the face-flat position would be energetically favorable and
therefore more likely. This would have resulted in a statistical deviation
from 4, in the high direction. I did not get a significant deviation. It
may be that the "wheel" effect cancels the "lower center of mass" effect well
enough to eliminate bias.
Dave Van Domelen, did trials of 100 throws each...he had nothing better
to do that night and was playing with a new statistical analysis program he'd
gotten for a class....
Ed Chauvin IV
newsreader Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>Steffan O'Sullivan wrote:
>>I have a d34, too - weirdest die made, IMO. It was made
>>to roll 3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100.
>
>When I saw a d34 (I still regret not buying it), it was advertized as
>good for rolling Lotto numbers -- at the time, Lotto numbers in
>Denmark were in the 1-34 range.
>
>>I haven't seen a d50, though - who made that and why?
>
>
>I haven't seen it, but unless it is made using the same method as the
>d34 (and a d10), all the faces can't be equivalent, and thus the
>probability of landing on different types of faces may depend on how
>you roll it (this goes for the d7 too, unless it is made as a roll
>with 7 curved, lozenge-shaped faces).
Or you could make it with nine sides, two of which are (essentially)
impossible results.
>The following link is to an article that shows what dice are possible
>that are provably fair, with pictures. I'd like to see one of the d24s
>produced.
>
>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dice.htm
Um... Isn't the Triakis Icosahedron unusable as a die, since the
faces form hills and valleys on it's surface, making it difficult
(impossible?) to have a single face topmost?
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dicepics/triaicos.gif
Ed Chauvin IV
--
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the Beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Dan Eveland
--
Dan Eveland
deve...@no.spam.mpinet.net
Take out the no.spam to e-mail me!
http://www.daneveland.com/
"Douglas Bailey" <trys...@ne.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.12c324a72...@nntp.ne.mediaone.net...
> One of my players has a golf ball on which -- using an *extremely*
> fine-tipped permanent marker and a lot of patience -- he's numbered
> every dimple. So he now has, I believe, the only d336 in existence.
>
> (Of course, if rolled, it'll *never* stop, but that's a triviality
> compared to the difficulties involved with finding a practical use for
> a d336.)
>
Ed Chauvin IV
rec.games.frp.misc, Klaus Ę. Mogensen used a less than adequate
newsreader Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
to describe Re: 16-sided Dice?
>Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>
>>Klaus Ę. Mogensen wrote:
>>>(this goes for the d7 too, unless it is made as a roll
>>>with 7 curved, lozenge-shaped faces).
>>
>>Or you could make it with nine sides, two of which are (essentially)
>>impossible results.
>
>Do you mean like a cylinder with rounded ends?
But of course! ;-)
Actually, rounding isn't entirely necessary, if die is long enough
relative to the size of the ends. But, it's a nice touch, and I admit
I hadn't actually thought of rounding.
>>>The following link is to an article that shows what dice are
>possible
>>>that are provably fair, with pictures. I'd like to see one of the
>d24s
>>>produced.
>>>
>>>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dice.htm
>>
>>Um... Isn't the Triakis Icosahedron unusable as a die, since the
>>faces form hills and valleys on it's surface, making it difficult
>>(impossible?) to have a single face topmost?
>>
>>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dicepics/triaicos.gif
>
>
>No, though I admit it could look that way from the picture. Take a
>icosahedron (d20) and place very flat triangular pyramids on each
>face, then you get a triakis icosahedron. You can make the pyramids as
>flat as you like, and at one point they will be flat enough to make
>the polyhedron entirely convex. I think the optimum would be to have
>all vertices touch the inside of an enclosing sphere -- something I
>think (but can't prove) is possible for all the polyhedra in the list.
OK, the picture does fool the eye somewhat.
And, why couldn't you prove the thing about the sphere? I'm no
math(s) geek, but all you'd have to do is prove that each can be
assembled from regular pyramids which would all have their rising
edges the same length, namely the radius of said sphere.
But, like I said, I'm no math(s) geek so I don't know offhand how to
take it any further than that. Good luck to you if you do.
>The pentagonal icositetrahedron and pentagonal hexecontahedron have
>the problem that when they rest on a face, neither a face, a vertex,
>or a side is up, so if you want to use them as dice, you'd have to
>read the face they stand on (like some d4s). Luckily, there are other
>ways to make d24 and d60.
The other problem they have is the difficulty of fitting them into
cocktail party small talk. Or even pronouncing them correctly without
your tongue tripping over your teeth.
Altaron Natherill
> Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
> at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
> and don't count anything over 16.
>
> Dave Van Domelen, likes the d7....
Who is Zocchi? I'd be interested in getting some of those d7's for GURPS.
Then I won't have dumb aholes telling me that what I really mean is 1d8 -1...
N.
--
SD Anderson
In as much as GURPS uses d6s and not d8s, I'm curious as to why
they'd tell you that.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
>
>Klaus Ę. Mogensen wrote:
>>(this goes for the d7 too, unless it is made as a roll
>>with 7 curved, lozenge-shaped faces).
>
>Or you could make it with nine sides, two of which are (essentially)
>impossible results.
Do you mean like a cylinder with rounded ends?
>>The following link is to an article that shows what dice are
possible
>>that are provably fair, with pictures. I'd like to see one of the
d24s
>>produced.
>>
>>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dice.htm
>
>Um... Isn't the Triakis Icosahedron unusable as a die, since the
>faces form hills and valleys on it's surface, making it difficult
>(impossible?) to have a single face topmost?
>
>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Dicepics/triaicos.gif
No, though I admit it could look that way from the picture. Take a
icosahedron (d20) and place very flat triangular pyramids on each
face, then you get a triakis icosahedron. You can make the pyramids as
flat as you like, and at one point they will be flat enough to make
the polyhedron entirely convex. I think the optimum would be to have
all vertices touch the inside of an enclosing sphere -- something I
think (but can't prove) is possible for all the polyhedra in the list.
The pentagonal icositetrahedron and pentagonal hexecontahedron have
the problem that when they rest on a face, neither a face, a vertex,
or a side is up, so if you want to use them as dice, you'd have to
read the face they stand on (like some d4s). Luckily, there are other
ways to make d24 and d60.
Klaus Ę. Mogensen
Tenzhi the Ti Hsien
>
>> Zocchi makes some nice d16s. And d7s, which I think becomes relevant on
>> at least one button man. Of course, if you can't find d16s, just use a d20
>> and don't count anything over 16.
>>
>> Dave Van Domelen, likes the d7....
>
>Who is Zocchi? I'd be interested in getting some of those d7's for GURPS.
>Then I won't have dumb aholes telling me that what I really mean is 1d8 -1...
And they could help for determining Potential stats in Rolemaster :P
George W. Harris
thusly:
=Ed Chauvin IV <edc...@newsguy.com> writes:
=
=>>3d34-2, giving a bell-curve spread from 1-100. Why on earth you'd want
=>>a bell-curve spread from 1-100, I can't figure out, though. The only
=>>reason I can even see wanting a 1-100 spread is as a d%, which is an
=>>even spread, of course ...
=
=>For generating (N)PC stats based on %. You'd get most of your results
=>near the middle, and could add points for PCs.
=
=True, but 5d20 is probably about as good. The means are close (52.5 for 5d20
=vs. 50.5 for 3d34-2). 5d20 has less variation though (sd 9.74 vs 17.0).
9d12-8 gives you 1-100 with a mean of 50.5. Might
be too narrow a distribution for most folks, though.
Does anyone know of anywhere that has any types
of d24s, or any d12s other than the regular dodecahedron?
=Jay
--
"Duke is the dominant power in men's college basketball."
-Greg Perry
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Torben AEgidius Mogensen
>In the presence of other members of the ill reputed
>rec.games.frp.misc, Klaus Æ. Mogensen used a less than adequate
>newsreader Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>to describe Re: 16-sided Dice?
>>I think the optimum would be to have
>>all vertices touch the inside of an enclosing sphere -- something I
>>think (but can't prove) is possible for all the polyhedra in the list.
>why couldn't you prove the thing about the sphere? I'm no
>math(s) geek, but all you'd have to do is prove that each can be
>assembled from regular pyramids which would all have their rising
>edges the same length, namely the radius of said sphere.
It is trivial if the faces are triangular: Just project the vertices
radially onto the enclosing sphere. However, if your faces are four-
or five-sided, projecting the vertices radially to a sphere may give
you non-planar faces.
Torben Mogensen (tor...@diku.dk)