RQ: Getting Spells, Pavis Temples
Clay Luther
Thanks for all the very helpful replies about helping my Storm Bull purchase
magic. I especially liked Loren's suggestion of the
testproof/scars/devoutness. Also, George Harris reminded me of the simple
factors such as the chance to cast spirit magic spells and the effects of ENC
on magic.
Now, in a like vein, I have *several* more questions (generated from my own
research into this situation).
1) The SB initiate/player in question decided that Flameblade was a
"must-have" after seeing a troop of Humakti use it in battle. However,
Humakt and SB are not associated cults, nor does SB teach Flameblade to his
initiates. I am inferring two things: cults will not teach cult spirit magic
spells to anyone not in the cult or an associated cult (as inferred but never
explicityly stated in GoG). Therefore, the SB initiate cannot wander into
the nearest Humakt temple and ask for Flameblade. 2) Flameblade is not
specifically forbidden spirit magic (it is just not SB cult spirit magic) -
therefore, the SB initiate could track down a shaman, perform the necessary
duties, and learn it from him.
2) What are the temple sizes in Pavis? In what seems to be a serious
oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
Assumptions:
Pavis is a medium city (pop. 4500, GM Book, p. 24)
P-4 Lokarnos, Minor (from GoG entry)
P-14 Seven Mothers, Major w/ shrines (from GoG entry, largest in Prax?)
P-15 Issaries/Etryies, shrines (from Pavis entry)
P-16 Argan Argar, Minor with assoc. shrines (from GoG)
P-19 Chalana Arroy, Minor (from RoC)
P-20 Ernalda, Minor
P-21 Orlanth, Shrine (from Pavis entry)
P-22 Lankhor Mhy, Minor (from RoC entry)
P-23 Inrippi Ontor, Minor
P-31 Pavis, Major with Flintnail shrine (Pavis entry)
S-31 Yelmalio, Minor
S-40 Uleria, Shrine (from GoG entry)
F-1 Eiritha and Waha, Minor (from GoG entries)
F-12 Storm Bull, Minor (from RoC entry)
F-72 Humakt, any, prob. Minor, perhaps Major (from GoG entry)
Temple Barge, Zola Fel, Major (from RoC entry)
Rubble probably contains various minor temples and shrines.
Implications of the above (bear with me here):
I checked the population of Pavis vs. the expected number of initiates:
Shrine (75-225, 150)
Minor Temple (150-500, 325)
Major Temple (400-2000, 1200)
Expected Initiates in Pavis
#/Size Min. Max. Avg.
5 shrines 375 1125 750
10 Minor 1500 5000 3250
3 Major 1200 6000 3600
TOTAL 3075 12125 7600
While the minimum number of expected initiates is within tolerance for Pavis,
the maximum and average are not. I would expect the average expected
initiates (AEI) to be supported by the population of the city. Therefore, I
assume that my original guesses on the sizes of the temples are wrong.
The difference between the average expected initiates and the population of
Pavis is 3100. I know that the ZF temple barge is major, I assume Pavis
Temple is in all likelihood major, so I'll make the Seven Mothers a minor
temple.
Picking more targets for reductions: Lokarnos, Humakt, Ernalda, Eiritha and
Waha. I originally counted E&W as two temples; count them as one.
Convert Ernalda, Humakt and Lokarnos to shrines.
One final cut: since Inrippi Ontor is subsuming Lankhor Mhy, we can combine
their temples.
Shrines: Lokarnos, Issaries/Etryies, Ernalda, Orlanth, Uleria, Eiritha/Waha,
Humakt
Minor Temples: Seven Mothers, Argan Argar, Chalana Arroy, Lankhor Mhy/Inrippi
Ontor, Yelmalio, Storm Bull
Major Temples: Pavis, Zola Fel
Revised Expected Initiates
#/Size Min. Max. Avg.
7 shrines 525 1575 1050
7 Minor 1050 3500 2275
2 Major 800 4000 2400
TOTAL 2375 9075 5725
These numbers look fairly *ok*. The minimum is almost 1/2 of Pavis'
population while the maximum is almost double. Allowing for vaguries, and
assuming that 95% of Pavis' adult population is initiated (2500 adults) the
minimum number just *barely* supports the temples in Pavis as listed.
I remember reading somewhere that the temple-per-capita ratio in Pavis was
higher than normal, which would explain this.
Other implications!!!
Minor temples only provide special divine magics. Going back to the Storm
Bull initiate wanting spells question, it is impossible for him to get any
cult spirit magic in Pavis. For that matter, it is impossible for any of
my players' characters, except the initiate of Zola Fel, to get any cult
spirit magic in Pavis.
Which brings me to another question!
Why precisely can't a minor temple teach cult spirit magic? Reading the
description of the Spellteaching ritual it says "must be cast in a temple."
A minor temple is a *temple*, but previously declared null and
void as a cult spirit magic source by the rules. Harumph.
So, on Saturday, I've got to face my players (all of them save one) and
explain that in the only resonably large (human) city for a thousand
kilometers in any direction they cannot learn any cult spirit magic. I can
hear the groans and shouts of disbelief now. So, before I get verbally and
physically abused tomorrow, I'd like to have some good answers.
Save a GM today!
THANKS!
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Loren Miller
>Why precisely can't a minor temple teach cult spirit magic? Reading the
>description of the Spellteaching ritual it says "must be cast in a temple."
>A minor temple is a *temple*, but previously declared null and
>void as a cult spirit magic source by the rules. Harumph.
Harumph indeed! I think there's an inconsistency in the rules. The reason
why the spellteaching divine ritual must be cast in a temple is because
that's where the cult magic spirits stay. I see no reason why a minor temple
couldn't have some magic spirits bound to it. However, since Pavis is a
city under hostile military control you are perfectly justified in saying
that the minor temple to Storm Bull doesn't have all the spells but that
truly devout initiates need to go to the Paps or some other place to learn
all the spirit magic they want. They can probably learn Heal 4, for
instance, but teaching an offensive spell would probably fit under some
Lunar anti-terrorism statute and bring trouble to the temple.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller LO...@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
There's a thin line between TQM and Mutiny
Graeme Lindsell
(Clay Luther) wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for all the very helpful replies about helping my Storm Bull purchase
> magic. I especially liked Loren's suggestion of the
> testproof/scars/devoutness. Also, George Harris reminded me of the simple
> factors such as the chance to cast spirit magic spells and the effects of ENC
> on magic.
>
> Now, in a like vein, I have *several* more questions (generated from my own
> research into this situation).
>
> 1) The SB initiate/player in question decided that Flameblade was a
> "must-have" after seeing a troop of Humakti use it in battle. However,
> Humakt and SB are not associated cults, nor does SB teach Flameblade to his
> initiates. I am inferring two things: cults will not teach cult spirit magic
> spells to anyone not in the cult or an associated cult (as inferred but never
> explicityly stated in GoG). Therefore, the SB initiate cannot wander into
> the nearest Humakt temple and ask for Flameblade. 2) Flameblade is not
> specifically forbidden spirit magic (it is just not SB cult spirit magic) -
> therefore, the SB initiate could track down a shaman, perform the necessary
> duties, and learn it from him.
Which would usually be very hard indeed. Shamans hardly give away spirit
magic
either, as they are usually priests of cults as well, typically Daka Fal.
Is
the Storm Bull initiate a Praxian? Almost all of them are. He could go back
to
his tribe and ask his tribal shaman for the spell (unless of course, they
kicked
him out for being a pushy, overbearing linebacker wearing a buffalo head,
as
Loren Miller would say). Of course, the shaman might have a problem or
three
(with some broos, say) that are right up a Storm Bulls alley... If the
player wants the spell that bad, make getting it into a mini-adventure.
>
> 2) What are the temple sizes in Pavis? In what seems to be a serious
> oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
> say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
No idea. Does anyone have the Pavis pack and The Big Rubble from RQII.
> Other implications!!!
>
> Minor temples only provide special divine magics. Going back to the Storm
> Bull initiate wanting spells question, it is impossible for him to get any
> cult spirit magic in Pavis. For that matter, it is impossible for any of
> my players' characters, except the initiate of Zola Fel, to get any cult
> spirit magic in Pavis.
Why would a storm bull go to Pavis to learn spells? Praxians HATE Pavis!
He would go to the Block, which is, I think, the cult's major temple, to
learn from the leaders of the cult.
>
> Which brings me to another question!
>
> Why precisely can't a minor temple teach cult spirit magic? Reading the
> description of the Spellteaching ritual it says "must be cast in a temple."
> A minor temple is a *temple*, but previously declared null and
> void as a cult spirit magic source by the rules. Harumph.
I think you've mixed up divine magic and spirit magic. Where it says
that minor temples only teach special divine magics is in the section
talking about _divine magic_, not spirit magic. Divine magic is taught
by a god - you have to get it from a temple, which is where most people
talk to gods. Spirit magic, even cult spirit magic, comes from spirits,
which most people need a summoner ie a priest. When it says "must be cast
in a temple", I would take it to mean "the priest must be in a temple,
OF ANY SIZE, to cast this spell". As long as you have a priest who
knows spellteaching, you can learn a spirit magic spell from him.
Which takes me to another way of limiting spirit magic. Any temple
would have a limited number of priests and rune lords, who would
each have a limited number of spellteaching spells. The cults
has a requirement of teaching one free point of spirit magic
per initiate per five years. In a minor temple with say 200
initiates, thats 40 a year. A Gloranthan year is what, 294 days?
That's 1 casting of spellteaching the priest has to do every week,as
a cult obligation. Given the priest has to go to a major temple to
learn more spelltaechings, he/she probably won't have too many castings.
When the character comes, asking to buy new spells, the priest could
whip out a scroll, peer at the dates, and say " Could you come back
in Dark season, I might be able to fit you in then?".
Of course, if you want the players to learn spells, you could just
have more priests, or the priest could have multiple castings. After
all, spellteaching can be a nice little boost to income for a priest
and the temple.
And of course, if your not interested in this, just ignore and/or
make up any rules you want. You are the GM, after all. You are
not obliged to use any rules you don't want.
> So, on Saturday, I've got to face my players (all of them save one) and
> explain that in the only resonably large (human) city for a thousand
> kilometers in any direction they cannot learn any cult spirit magic. I can
> hear the groans and shouts of disbelief now. So, before I get verbally and
> physically abused tomorrow, I'd like to have some good answers.
>
> Save a GM today!
>
> THANKS!
>
>
>
> --
> Clay Luther
> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal...@huxley.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry,
Australian National University
Clay Luther
>In article <cluther.728331088@morticia>, clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
>(Clay Luther) wrote:
>> Other implications!!!
>>
>> Minor temples only provide special divine magics. Going back to the Storm
>> Bull initiate wanting spells question, it is impossible for him to get any
>> cult spirit magic in Pavis. For that matter, it is impossible for any of
>> my players' characters, except the initiate of Zola Fel, to get any cult
>> spirit magic in Pavis.
> Why would a storm bull go to Pavis to learn spells? Praxians HATE Pavis!
>He would go to the Block, which is, I think, the cult's major temple, to
>learn from the leaders of the cult.
As a matter of fact, the Storm Bull initiate is Sartarite. His father was
killed in the Sack of Boldhome. His mother fled with the then 2-year old baby
to Pavis. We assumed that he is specifically affiliated with the SB temple in
Pavis.
>>
>> Which brings me to another question!
>>
>> Why precisely can't a minor temple teach cult spirit magic? Reading the
>> description of the Spellteaching ritual it says "must be cast in a temple."
>> A minor temple is a *temple*, but previously declared null and
>> void as a cult spirit magic source by the rules. Harumph.
>
>I think you've mixed up divine magic and spirit magic. Where it says
No, I was looking at the MB here and merely quoting.
I have to agree with Loren here; the rules moderately broken on the point
of what can be taught at a minor temple.
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Rob Mace
In article <cluther.728331088@morticia>, clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>
> Now, in a like vein, I have *several* more questions (generated from my own
> research into this situation).
>
> 2) What are the temple sizes in Pavis? In what seems to be a serious
> oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
> say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
Chaosiums numbers often don't add up. It seems they sometimes don't even
apply a simple logic test to the numbers. Look at the average rainfall
that Prax gets. That is a lot of rain for the type of desert that Prax
is described to be. The RQ3 wind tables were another great example.
We had lots of fun with the image of dogs, cats, and children being blown
down the street on a moderately windy day.
> Assumptions:
> Pavis is a medium city (pop. 4500, GM Book, p. 24)
>
> (Stuff about temple sizes deleted)
>
> Expected Initiates in Pavis
> #/Size Min. Max. Avg.
> TOTAL 3075 12125 7600
>
> While the minimum number of expected initiates is within tolerance for Pavis,
> the maximum and average are not. I would expect the average expected
> initiates (AEI) to be supported by the population of the city. Therefore, I
> assume that my original guesses on the sizes of the temples are wrong.
Not all initiates of these temples have to live in Pavis. Many can live
in the surrounding area.
> (Stuff about deciding temple sizes deleted)
>
> Shrines: Lokarnos, Issaries/Etryies, Ernalda, Orlanth, Uleria, Eiritha/Waha,
> Humakt
> Minor Temples: Seven Mothers, Argan Argar, Chalana Arroy, Lankhor Mhy/Inrippi
> Ontor, Yelmalio, Storm Bull
> Major Temples: Pavis, Zola Fel
I would disagree with a number of these choices. You should think about
where the worshipers of a cult are more likely to base there temples.
Some have reasons to be based in cities others don't. Some of the temples
in Pavis act basically as a way station for the worshipers while they are
in town. These are more likely to a shrine plus some rooms for worshipers
to stay in.
> (stuff deleted)
>
> So, on Saturday, I've got to face my players (all of them save one) and
> explain that in the only resonably large (human) city for a thousand
> kilometers in any direction they cannot learn any cult spirit magic. I can
> hear the groans and shouts of disbelief now. So, before I get verbally and
> physically abused tomorrow, I'd like to have some good answers.
Not all temples are located in cities. I would say that most in Prax are
not. In my groups campaign the largest Storm Bull Temple is at the base
of the Block. A several of tribes also have mobile Storm Bull Temples.
Given the wandering nature of the tribes a lot of mobile temples exist.
A number of Temples exist at other fixed sites in Prax. The Paps has a
number. Turney Alter has a Humakt Temple. Yelmalio has the Sun Dome
Temple in Sun County.
In our campaign the largest Chalana Arroy Temple is at the Block. The
CAs there have huge numbers of Resurrection spells and huge True Stones
filled with Resurrection. Here is how the system works:
1) There is a temple/fort/city/camp thing at the base of the
Block that contains the SB and CA Temples and a few
shrines. It also has a market where Issaries trade
with the SB for True Stones they have found in the swamps.
The SBs also charge the Issaries(which they call "Marks")
large amounts for escort through the swamp to and from
the camp
2) In the morning Storm Bulls go out into the swamps to
fight chaos.
3) The SBs fight chaos and some get killed. The group returns
with the dead SBs if they have not been eaten, dissolved, etc.
4) The CAs resurrect the SBs that were killed and get a power check.
5) The SBs get drunk.
6) Repeat steps 2-5.
Also in our campaign being near such a large piece of True Stone(The Block)
has some special effects.
- Touching the block removes all active magic.
- Being near the block causes Power Checks to be rolled once a
day, not once a week.
Also we use rules that are closer to the RQ2 True Stone Rules. Not the
RQ3 (Sandy Peterson, Call of RuneQuest) rules.
Rob Mace
Graeme Lindsell
(Clay Luther) wrote:
>
> gal...@huxley.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) writes:
>
> >In article <cluther.728331088@morticia>, clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
> >(Clay Luther) wrote:
> >> Which brings me to another question!
> >>
> >> Why precisely can't a minor temple teach cult spirit magic? Reading the
> >> description of the Spellteaching ritual it says "must be cast in a temple."
> >> A minor temple is a *temple*, but previously declared null and
> >> void as a cult spirit magic source by the rules. Harumph.
> >
> >I think you've mixed up divine magic and spirit magic. Where it says
>
> No, I was looking at the MB here and merely quoting.
Hmm you're right. First time for everything I suppose :-).
However, under Spellteaching, it says the spell can only be
cast "within a temple or other holy place". I would say that
other holy place includes shrines or sites, personally. My
feeling is that cult spirit magic is available where there
are priests who know the spell.
How difficult getting spirit magic is really up to you as
the GM. Your not obliged to stick by any rules quoted in the
magic book about major or minor temples. Check the enemies
provided for the players in the scenario: do they tend to have
their full INT worth of spirit magic? (NB: I don't have
River of Cradles and will probably be playing in Troubled
Waters soon, so please don't mention any specifics). Most games
I've played, and in my opinion almost everything written
about Glorantha, suggests that spirit magic is commonly
available to every initiate. As I've said above, I
would allow players to learn spirit magic everywhere there
was at least a shrine and a priest who knew the spell. I
might even change the spellteaching spell so it could be
cast anywhere. IMHO, spirit magic should be common.
>
> I have to agree with Loren here; the rules moderately broken on the point
> of what can be taught at a minor temple.
I'd say they were ambiguous more than broken. Look
at sorcery, now that's broken!
Brian J. Kondalski
>oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
>say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
Well the original Pavis supplement gave a breakdown of cults and how many rune
level (priests, lords, lord/priests) people were in them. I don't know if it
would still apply to the Sun Country supplement, but I'd be glad to send you
the information on it. This won't give you the # of initiates and such, however
Pavis had a breakdown of the population of the rubble and pavis by race. Any
think this info still usable in RQ3? I can't see where this would have changed.
--
Brian J. Kondalski b_kon...@vssi.trw.com
TRW V.S.S.I. Voice: (313) 781-7382 "The guaranteed eternal
4505 West 26 Mile Road Fax: (313) 786-7702 sanctuary man."
Washington, MI 48094 Views expressed here are MINE!
Jeff Freymueller
>First of all I play RQ2 so my answers are biased in that way.
>
>In article <cluther.728331088@morticia>, clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>>
>> Now, in a like vein, I have *several* more questions (generated from my own
>> research into this situation).
>>
>> 2) What are the temple sizes in Pavis? In what seems to be a serious
>> oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
>> say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
>
>Chaosiums numbers often don't add up. It seems they sometimes don't even
>apply a simple logic test to the numbers. Look at the average rainfall
>that Prax gets. That is a lot of rain for the type of desert that Prax
>is described to be. The RQ3 wind tables were another great example.
>We had lots of fun with the image of dogs, cats, and children being blown
>down the street on a moderately windy day.
>
sizes discussion once I've had more time to look over the numbers and think
about it.
As far as rainfall in Prax is concerned, Prax is a desert for magical
reasons, because the earth itself is almost dead there. In the Dead Place,
it is dead, so almost nothing grows there but stray scrub, and magic can't
be replenished. So Prax would be a desert no matter how much rain fell.
The same is true of the Wastes to the east, although I get the impression
that even less rain falls there.
Jeff
Alex Ferguson
>Harumph indeed! I think there's an inconsistency in the rules. The reason
>why the spellteaching divine ritual must be cast in a temple is because
>that's where the cult magic spirits stay. I see no reason why a minor temple
>couldn't have some magic spirits bound to it.
Before we roast Chaosium alive, notice that:
i) Spellteaching is a common spell;
ii) Minor temples don't get any common spells;
iii) Hence, priests at minor temples won't usually be able to cast it, whether
the spirits exists or not.
This merely means that you'd have to have a priest from a major/great
temple on hand, plus the appropriate spirits, so it's not impossible.
Clay:
>1) The SB initiate/player in question decided that Flameblade was a
>"must-have" after seeing a troop of Humakti use it in battle. However,
>Humakt and SB are not associated cults, nor does SB teach Flameblade to his
>initiates. I am inferring two things: cults will not teach cult spirit magic
>spells to anyone not in the cult or an associated cult (as inferred but never
>explicityly stated in GoG).
Yes, I would say, although Apple Lane talks about Humakti selling magic to
"friendly" cultists.
Exercise for the student: spot which Storm Bull associate _does_ teach
Flameblade. Further exercise: calculate SB cultist's chances of obtaining
spell by this route. Answers at bottom of page. :-)
> 2) Flameblade is not
>specifically forbidden spirit magic (it is just not SB cult spirit magic) -
>therefore, the SB initiate could track down a shaman, perform the necessary
>duties, and learn it from him.
If he were a Praxian SBer, this would be feasible, I would say, though
it might take some looking. But a Sartarite has no likely source, unless
he does some _serious_ buttering up.
>So, on Saturday, I've got to face my players (all of them save one) and
>explain that in the only resonably large (human) city for a thousand
>kilometers in any direction they cannot learn any cult spirit magic. I can
>hear the groans and shouts of disbelief now. So, before I get verbally and
>physically abused tomorrow, I'd like to have some good answers.
You could choose to rule that in some cases Spellteaching priest and spell
spirit are available anyway, by happy coincidence, even at minor temples,
if you believe the explanation above. You could be more optimistic, in
some cases, about likely temple size. You could point out that Prax is a
bit of a hole. You could invest in a set of body armour.
[naroZ karoZ. 0.]
--
Alex Ferguson.
ARPA: alex%dcs.glas...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: al...@glasgow.uucp
BANGNET: ...!mcvax!ukc!dcs.glasgow.ac.uk!alex JANET: al...@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs
"You mean you could have walked the galaxy and you simply never bothered?"
mil...@wharton.upenn.edu
> Before we roast Chaosium alive, notice that:
> i) Spellteaching is a common spell;
> ii) Minor temples don't get any common spells;
> iii) Hence, priests at minor temples won't usually be able to cast it, whether
> the spirits exists or not.
>
> This merely means that you'd have to have a priest from a major/great
> temple on hand, plus the appropriate spirits, so it's not impossible.
Actually, it only means that the priests learn spellteaching from major
temples. They can pray at any minor temple to get *all* their divine
spells back, not just the ones they can learn there. Thus they could
teach any spirit magic they have a pet spell spirit for.
> Exercise for the student: spot which Storm Bull associate _does_ teach
> Flameblade. Further exercise: calculate SB cultist's chances of obtaining
> spell by this route. Answers at bottom of page. :-)
Alex brings up an interesting point. Given the location and task of the
party, I'd think the least one of the ZZ priests in the Rubble could do
to oppose chaos is to teach Fireblade to the Stormbull. The problem is
how to approach the DeathLords without ending up gutted and on a spit
over a slow fire. Maybe Griselda can give the characters a lead...
--
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MIL...@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail. -- Baron de Montesquieu
Tim Leask
>2) What are the temple sizes in Pavis? In what seems to be a serious
>oversight on the part of the authors. Temple entries in the overview simply
>say "Temple." Here are my best guesses and reasons why:
>Assumptions:
>Pavis is a medium city (pop. 4500, GM Book, p. 24)
>I checked the population of Pavis vs. the expected number of initiates:
>Shrine (75-225, 150)
>Minor Temple (150-500, 325)
>Major Temple (400-2000, 1200)
> Expected Initiates in Pavis
>#/Size Min. Max. Avg.
>5 shrines 375 1125 750
>10 Minor 1500 5000 3250
>3 Major 1200 6000 3600
>TOTAL 3075 12125 7600
>While the minimum number of expected initiates is within tolerance for Pavis,
>the maximum and average are not. I would expect the average expected
>initiates (AEI) to be supported by the population of the city. Therefore, I
>assume that my original guesses on the sizes of the temples are wrong.
As others have mentioned the intiates would come from the surrounding area
as well as Pavis. In addition you should consider the following points also
- People may be initiates of more than one cult particularly in the case
of Pavis.
- The Zola Fel temple includes many aquatic species from along the Zola Fel
including intelligent fish (which make up about 1% of the fish population).
- Cult Spirits are initates of the cult as well and wouldn't be included
in any population figures that you have cited.
- IMO the numbers required for Glorathan Temples are at the low end of the
scale the higher figures are for the soon to be defunct Alternate Earth.
Afterall these figures come from the MB so must cover both universes.
When all is said and done you the GM must decide what is fair and reasonable.
I would never let the numbers tell me to do something that didn't feel
right.
Just my $0.02
Tim
Clay Luther
>[naroZ karoZ. 0.]
Bzzzt.
Zorak Zoran teaches Storm Bull Fear, not Fireblade Storm Bulls do not have
access to this magic.
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Andrew Bell
>al...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) writes:
>>[naroZ karoZ. 0.]
>Bzzzt.
Counter Bzzzt.
>Zorak Zoran teaches Storm Bull Fear, not Fireblade Storm Bulls do not have
>access to this magic.
Fireblade is spirit magic. You can usually get spirit magic from associated
cults.
-Andrew Bell
be...@cs.unc.edu
Graeme A Lindsell
>al...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) writes:
>>[naroZ karoZ. 0.]
>Zorak Zoran teaches Storm Bull Fear, not Fireblade Storm Bulls do not have
>access to this magic.
Don't associate cults teach one another their spirit magic? I recall
the cost is much higher... something like 100 + 50 per point of spell.
I think this is described at the start of Gods of Glorantha. Of course
I could just be thinking about the cost of the associate Rune spells,
which, as you pointed out, is Fear for Storm Bulls.
This gives those cults with a lot of associates (Orlanth, Yelm etc)
access to a lot of spells. Note that you still can't learn spells
forbidden by your cult even if an associate knows them, and Chalana
Arroy won't teach anyone Sleep (Damn!).
>--
>Clay Luther
>clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
--
George W. Harris
>
>>[naroZ karoZ. 0.]
>
>Bzzzt.
>
>Zorak Zoran teaches Storm Bull Fear, not Fireblade Storm Bulls do not have
>access to this magic.
Bzzzt bzzzt. Fireblade is a spirit magic spell. One may learn spirit
magic spells taught by associate cults. Zorak Zoran is an associate cult to
Storm Bull. Therefore, Storm Bull worshipers can learn Fireblade from Zorak
Zoran priests (theoretically).
Actually, since a significant proportion of human Praxian nomads
worship Zorak Zoran, I would say it wouldn't be impossible for a Praxian
Storm Bull initiate to learn the Fireblade spell from a ZZ temple if he
accompanied his ZZ friend there, to prevent being eaten (or if it were a
nomad-oriented temple).
>Clay Luther
>clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
--
gha...@jade.tufts.edu
George W. Harris "He'd kill us if he had the chance."
Dept. of Mathematics
Tufts University The Conversation
Clay Luther
>In article <cluther.728675329@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
> Bzzzt bzzzt. Fireblade is a spirit magic spell. One may learn spirit
>magic spells taught by associate cults. Zorak Zoran is an associate cult to
>Storm Bull. Therefore, Storm Bull worshipers can learn Fireblade from Zorak
>Zoran priests (theoretically).
Ouch. I concede the point, G 2, C 0.
> Actually, since a significant proportion of human Praxian nomads
>worship Zorak Zoran, I would say it wouldn't be impossible for a Praxian
>Storm Bull initiate to learn the Fireblade spell from a ZZ temple if he
>accompanied his ZZ friend there, to prevent being eaten (or if it were a
>nomad-oriented temple).
Then again, the SB in question is of Sartar descent, raised in Pavis by his
Sartar mother.
>>Clay Luther
>>clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
>--
>gha...@jade.tufts.edu
>George W. Harris "He'd kill us if he had the chance."
>Dept. of Mathematics
>Tufts University The Conversation
--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
Alex Ferguson
>Actually, it only means that the priests learn spellteaching from major
>temples. They can pray at any minor temple to get *all* their divine
>spells back, not just the ones they can learn there.
I'd have no problem with such an interpretation, but my reading of the
Magic Book is otherwise. There is a clear statement that only the "taught"
spell may be regained at shrines, and no explicit mention of any other case
that I can find. What is the official/usual interpretation of this? Am
I missing something obvious?
> Thus they could
>teach any spirit magic they have a pet spell spirit for.
The Spellteaching description isn't clear about this: must the Spell Spirit
be on hand, or does the ritual summon it? At any rate, it could be
Summoned beforehand, since that's a Common spell too, for Spell Spirits.
>Alex brings up an interesting point. Given the location and task of the
>party, I'd think the least one of the ZZ priests in the Rubble could do
>to oppose chaos is to teach Fireblade to the Stormbull. The problem is
>how to approach the DeathLords without ending up gutted and on a spit
>over a slow fire. Maybe Griselda can give the characters a lead...
Well, that's problem 1. The next is presuading them to cough up their
"Holy of holies" to a bunch of no-account Sartar Exiles... I would
expect ZZ cultists to be _very_ reluctant to trade fire magic, even to
the friendliest (associatedest?) cultists.
mil...@wharton.upenn.edu
> I'd have no problem with such an interpretation, but my reading of the
> Magic Book is otherwise. There is a clear statement that only the "taught"
> spell may be regained at shrines, and no explicit mention of any other case
> that I can find. What is the official/usual interpretation of this? Am
> I missing something obvious?
You're confusing shrines and minor temples. I originally thought that
any holy spot, including a shrine, should allow for regaining divine
magic. This was based on RQ2, which said that any altar was sufficient,
and since I assume that shrines have altars... However, we're playing
RQ3 now. The magic book says that shrines are limited in the spells a
priest can regain but it doesn't say that about minor temples. If the
book doesn't limit something, it must be possible.
>> Thus they could
>>teach any spirit magic they have a pet spell spirit for.
>
> The Spellteaching description isn't clear about this: must the Spell Spirit
> be on hand, or does the ritual summon it? At any rate, it could be
> Summoned beforehand, since that's a Common spell too, for Spell Spirits.
The description isn't clear. I think that most temples of any size have
a bunch of cult spirits that know cult magic and will teach it to
initiates without possessing the losers. However, if a temple didn't
have such a pet spirit around, or if the cult magic spirits had all been
defeated this week, it should be possible to get more, though they might
not be as friendly.
>>to oppose chaos is to teach Fireblade to the Stormbull. The problem is
>>how to approach the DeathLords without ending up gutted and on a spit
>>over a slow fire. Maybe Griselda can give the characters a lead...
>
> Well, that's problem 1. The next is presuading them to cough up their
> "Holy of holies" to a bunch of no-account Sartar Exiles... I would
> expect ZZ cultists to be _very_ reluctant to trade fire magic, even to
> the friendliest (associatedest?) cultists.
It's only spirit magic. It's powered by the individual, not by the god,
and besides, he is a bull brother who wants to fight chaos with fire. As
long as the stormbull doesn't kill somebody when the trolls put a bag
over his head before escorting him into the temple they might let him
near the holy spot. They probably won't let him see it, though. They
might even bind his hands and feet so he doesn't get any odd ideas.
Alex Ferguson
>In article <C21FC...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, al...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) writes:
>> There is a clear statement that only the "taught"
>> spell may be regained at shrines, and no explicit mention of any other case
>> that I can find.
>You're confusing shrines and minor temples.
No, I was just pointing out that Minor Temples weren't handled explicitly, and
the only given case worked differently, and so, by extrapolation...
I hesitate to try to drag RQ2 into it, since it had no notion of temple
size, and a much broader set of "common" spells, so it's hard to compare.
>The magic book says that shrines are limited in the spells a
>priest can regain but it doesn't say that about minor temples. If the
>book doesn't limit something, it must be possible.
Trouble is, it doesn't have any general statement on how to regain spells
that I could find, and was inclined to think this must be lumped in under
"learning". Very possibly this isn't the intended reading. Votes?
Divinations to the Creator Gods?
> However, if a temple didn't
>have such a pet spirit around, or if the cult magic spirits had all been
>defeated this week, it should be possible to get more, though they might
>not be as friendly.
By a Summon, or popping up automatically when Spellteaching is cast?
>> I would
>> expect ZZ cultists to be _very_ reluctant to trade fire magic, even to
>> the friendliest (associatedest?) cultists.
>It's only spirit magic. It's powered by the individual, not by the god,
>and besides, he is a bull brother who wants to fight chaos with fire.
Zorak Zoran worshippers, and trolls in general, have a very superstitious
attitude to any kind of fire, or even heat, and hence, I'd reckon, would
be much less casual about trading such magic. Note that GoG only says
that associated cults _normally_ (or words to that effect) trade spirit
magic, no copper-bottomed guarantees.
Human ZZ cultists would probably swap Fireblade in a trice, mind you.
mcki...@vnet.ibm.com
>
>No, I was just pointing out that Minor Temples weren't handled explicitly, and
>the only given case worked differently, and so, by extrapolation...
>
temple (shrine to great). I don't remember exactly what they say (I think major temple
or greater to get non-cult specific spells, great to get spells of associated cults) but
I'll look it up.
>
>>> I would
>>> expect ZZ cultists to be _very_ reluctant to trade fire magic, even to
>>> the friendliest (associatedest?) cultists.
>
>
I've always had a bit of a problem imagining non-uz in Zorak Zoran. All of the
troll cults are so tied up in the troll culture. I would tell a storm bull who wanted to
try this tactic "well, officially they have a cult obligation to you but storm bulls in the
past who have tried this have had unfortunate "accidents" on the way to or from the
temple -- then leave it up to him.
Ken
Haavard Fosseng
>Human ZZ cultists would probably swap Fireblade in a trice, mind you.
I've always had a bit of a problem imagining non-uz in Zorak Zoran. All of
the troll cults are so tied up in the troll culture. I would tell a storm
bull who wanted to try this tactic "well, officially they have a cult
obligation to you but storm bulls in the past who have tried this have had
unfortunate "accidents" on the way to or from the temple -- then leave it
up to him.
Ken
I remember reading in RQ II that xenophobia as such was unknown in Glorantha,
and that relations were based purely on cult affiliation. A human who became
a member of an uz cult would be thought of and related to as uzko by uz and
non-uz alike.
H}vard Fosseng
Alex Ferguson
> >Human ZZ cultists would probably swap Fireblade in a trice, mind you.
>In article <C2Ayx...@austin.ibm.com> mcki...@vnet.ibm.com writes:
> I've always had a bit of a problem imagining non-uz in Zorak Zoran.
Zoran Zoran isn't a troll cult as such, just a darkness god very popular
among trolls. Allegedly, all human temples to ZZ exist. Morokanth also
worship him.
> I would tell a storm
> bull who wanted to try this tactic "well, officially they have a cult
> obligation to you but storm bulls in the past who have tried this have had
> unfortunate "accidents" on the way to or from the temple -- then leave it
> up to him.
They don't have an obligation to each spirit magic as such. They do have
an obligation wrt to divine magic, of course, and would be skating on thin
ice to interfere with someone trying to worship at a Storm Bull shrine
in a Zorak Zoran temple (or anywhere!).
In article <HAAVARDF.93...@elektron.uio.no> haav...@elektron.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng) writes:
>I remember reading in RQ II that xenophobia as such was unknown in Glorantha,
Well, apart from the fact that the Aldryami hate the Mostali (and vice-versa),
the Doraddi hate the Artmali (and vice-versa), the Praxians all hate each
other (and the Pentans (and vice versa)), the Wind Children hate the
Maidstone Archers (and vice versa), the Teshnans all hate each other
(and the Dragonewts), and that everybody hates the Uz (and yes, vice-versa),
I'd agree entirely.
:-)
> A human who became
>a member of an uz cult would be thought of and related to as uzko by uz and
>non-uz alike.
For being initiated into Kyger Litor, this is true. But it may hurt a
little... see "Troll Adoption Rites", in one of the (many) KL RQ3 writeups.
Alex Ferguson
al...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson (yes, that's me) writes:
>Well, apart from the fact that the Aldryami hate the Mostali (and vice-versa),
That should of course be the Veldang, rather than the Artmali, or rather
either: Agimori & Veldang; or Doraddi & <whatever Veldang culture there is
to speak of>.
And talking of the Agimori: is the Agimori material in _River_of_Cradles_
a) much the same as the RQ2 material; and/or b) intended to be cover _all_
Agimor, and not just the Praxian ones, to sone degree or another? I ask
because in discussing them from the standpoint of the [Gods of] Glorantha
[Book in _Genertela_], with someone (only) familiar with the Borderlands (?)
material on them, we quickly ended talking at cross purposes.
Clearly the Pamaltelan guys have a different religion and culture, but how
similar are they otherwise? (Said RQ2 dude swore blind that the Praxian
Agimor weren't even _black_...) Are the 2-point armour/maxed stats
standard issue?
Haavard Fosseng
In article <HAAVARDF.93...@elektron.uio.no> haav...@elektron.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng) writes:
>I remember reading in RQ II that xenophobia as such was unknown in Glorantha,
Well, apart from the fact that the Aldryami hate the Mostali (and vice-versa),
the Doraddi hate the Artmali (and vice-versa), the Praxians all hate each
other (and the Pentans (and vice versa)), the Wind Children hate the
Maidstone Archers (and vice versa), the Teshnans all hate each other
(and the Dragonewts), and that everybody hates the Uz (and yes, vice-versa),
I'd agree entirely.
The reference I mentioned specifically mentioned Aldryami/Mostali/Uz "problems"
as being cult- rather than race-based.
H}vard Fosseng
David Cake
>similar are they otherwise? (Said RQ2 dude swore blind that the Praxian
>Agimor weren't even _black_...) Are the 2-point armour/maxed stats
>standard issue?
The ROC Agimori are the same as the RQ2 Agimori. I have always assumed that
they are black (though it might not have been clear in RQ2). Whether they are
intended to cover all Agimori is another question. I have a letter in which
Sandy Peterson states that Agimori are just normal humans with dark skin, so
I would assume that this is how things work, and that the ROC Agimori are just
one particular cult, with a particularly nifty initiation ritual (that adds
vastly to their stats and makes them creatures of fire (or heat at least)).
They must be pretty tough compared to everyone else, but maybe there aren't as
many of them (and Basmoli berserkers are pretty tough too, and more so in
Pamaltela where they hang out with lions).
Oh, I think that Basmoli tribes are black too (of the Agimori race).
Dave Cake
>--
>Alex Ferguson.
>ARPA: alex%dcs.glas...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk UUCP: al...@glasgow.uucp
>BANGNET: ...!mcvax!ukc!dcs.glasgow.ac.uk!alex JANET: al...@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs
>"You mean you could have walked the galaxy and you simply never bothered?"
--
David Cake |life is easily understood as bit strings with logical
[WLM] Weird Little Man |depth greater than their length - Rebis, Doom Patrol
Cognitive science, UWA |..think about a government entirely of fish - JBC