HERO Thrown Weapons
George Novodvorsky
I have been trying to write up DareDevil and Captain America for
Champions, and I have run into a problem with their weapons. They can each
either throw their billy-club/shield, which almost always comes back to them
aftwerwards, or just hold it and strike with it, which sounds like a
multipower, EB and HA.
But, because HA is so much cheaper than EB, and allows strength to
add extra dice, either the hand-to-hand attack does ridiculously more damage
than the the thrown attack, which does not seem to simulate the comics very
well, or the power is ridiculously inefficient.
These are the three options as I see them:
1) Efficient, minimaxing option.
DareDevil (STR 20, say. Normal Human Max. A low power superhero.).
19: 30 active point Multipower (Half endurance + 1/4, OAF BillyClub -1)
2: ultra slot: (thrown club) 6d6 physical EB,
barely enough to have a chance of knocking out a normal.
2: ultra slot: (held club) +10d6!!! HA,
for a grand total of 14d6!!! damage, even before Martial Arts,
way too much.
2) Inefficient option.
19: 30 active point Multipower (Half endurance + 1/4, OAF BillyClub -1)
2: ultra slot: (thrown club) 6d6 physical EB,
ditto.
1: ultra slot: (held club) +3d6 HA,
for a grand total of 7d6 damage before MA, reasonable.
However, say any reasonable player is running this character, or even a
similar character. Where does the very first experience point go, which
will more than _double_ the power of this hero?
3) Even less efficient option. No Multipower at all.
19: 6d6 Physical EB (Thrown Club, +1/4 1/2 END, -1 OAF Club).
5: +3d6 HA (+1/4 half END, -1 OAF Club)
This guy won't be able to double his power for 1 point, but:
1) he costs _more_ than either option 1 or option 2; and
2) he can't actually _do_ any more than either option 1 or option 2, since
he can't make the 2 different attacks in one phase anyway, so they lose
nothing for taking the multipower.
I can't think of any reasonable solution within the rules, so here
is my suggestion of how to add a new rule (it seems to be necessary:
the returning-blunt-weapon-thrower seems to be a fairly common character
type, at least in the comics).
Advantage to HA (precedents for advantages only applicable to certain
powers: Transfer [Cumulative], Entangle [lots]): can be thrown to return (+1).
Superheroic campaigns only.
Generally this only applies to HA's taken through an OAF which is the
weapon itself. The user can "throw" the HA like a ranged attack, and have
some chance of it returning with sufficient skill. The range of the throw
is 2" per active point of HA: this does not go as far as an Energy Blast.
The weapon does it's normal HA damage, plus the user can add damage
from STR up to the normal HA damage again (so if the user does more damage
with STR than with HA, he will do more damage by striking with the weapon
than by throwing it). STR damage dice over the HA damage dice are only half
as effective (like STR adds to most thrown weapons) and reduce the chance
for the weapon to bounce back properly; every 2d6 STR damage more than the
HA damage adds 1d6 total damage but subtracts one from the number needed to
bounce back. There is also a maximum: the weapon may only do 3x its HA
dice in damage, any dice after that only go to damage the weapon.
[By the way, I am aware that this is different from the way STR
adds to normal thrown weapons, say in Fantasy Hero. This is because a 4d6 FH
club does _not_ correspond to a +4d6 HA in Champions. A STR 15 person
would do 4d6 with the 4d6 club, but would do 7d6 with the +4d6 HA.]
For the weapon to return, the user must spend at least one (and
probably at least two, but GM's judgement based on situation) skill level
on "bounce", to simulate reflecting off various walls on the way back.
These "bounces" won't affect surprising the target, since they happen after
the weapon has had its chance to hit. If the user hits by at least (Range
Penalty - Skill levels spent to bounce back), the weapon returns, and the
user is assumed to catch it. If the user hits, but by less than this, the
weapon doesn't return (GM's choice wher it ends up, but one suggestion is
2^n -1 hexes away from the target in the general direction of the thrower,
where n is the amount hit by. So if the user hits exactly, the weapon
lands in the target's hex, if he hits by 1, it is 1 hex away, by 2, 3 hexes
away, by 3, 7 hexes away, etc. You don't have to do this math if you don't
want to.)
So the farther away the target is, not only is it harder to hit (as
normal), but the harder it is to get the weapon back afterwards. In
theory, if the user spends more levels on bouncing than the range penalty,
the user could get the weapon back even if it missed by a little.
Skill Levels "only to bounce" are bought at -1, "only to bounce
back" at -1 1/2.
Missile Deflection is the bane of HA throwers. A succesful Missile
Deflection roll means that the weapon winds up wherever Missile Deflected
weapons normally wind up, which is very unlikely to be in the thrower's
hex.
Example: DareDevil (STR 20, DEX 23) throws his club (+3d6 HA, can
be thrown and return +1, 1/2 END + 1/4, OAF -1 for a total of 11 points) at
the Kingpin (low powered Brick (STR 35, DEX 15)), far enough away to get a -4
Range Mod. DD has 6 levels applicable to this (this is his main combat
style after all), and puts 3 on OCV, 3 on bounce back, so he needs a (11 +
8(OCV) +3(Skill levels) -4(Range) -5(DCV) = 14-). If he gets a (14
-4(Range) +3(Bounce levels) = 13-), his weapon comes back, so it is a good
throw even at this range. He is not using all 20 STR, but only 15, so as
not to screw up the bounce back, so he will do 3d6(HA)+3d6(STR) = 6d6 when
he hits.
Say he rolls a 15 and misses. The GM rules that the club is close
enough for the Kingpin to move to in a 1/2 move and throw it back all in one
action (DD's player is really having a bad day). Kingpin is using all 35
STR (he doesn't care about fancy tricks), but only 3d6 of those 7d6 are at
full, so he will do 3d6 + 3d6 + 4d6/2 = 8d6 if he hits. If he has any
skill levels to bounce with (with thrown clubs (3), thrown weapons (5), or
general combat (8)) and spends at least 2 of them to bounce back, he will
need to hit by at least (4(Range) + 2(using 4d6 extra strength over HA) = 6
- any bounce levels) to get the club back for another throw next phase.
Notice, this is not the way to build most "normal" thrown weapons,
like throwing knives or even clubs, since these don't usually return to
the thrower no matter how skilled he is. Even boomerangs only return when
they miss.
For those kinds of weapons that can be thrown once, I think the
advantage is given in the weapon construction rules. As a GM, I would let
anyone throw their OAF HA or HKA once anyway, even without any advantage,
just as a special effect. After all, that effectively means that they
can't use it for that combat, and it is very cinematic (villain throws
sword at hero...).
All things considered, the +1 might be a bit much, and +3/4 might
be more appropriate. But I prefer to err on the side of "making the new,
untested power cost _more_ rather than less".
What do all of you think? Sean Patrick Fannon? John H. Kim?
Bueller?
George Ruban (whatever it might say in the tag line).
P.S. Anyone even vaguely, remotely connected with the Net.Supers.Book
(such as anyone who has ever gotten _mail_ to anyone remotely connected
with the Net.Supers.Book), please write me (g...@cs.bu.edu) and tell me if
you saw the SpiderMan I posted ~2 months ago. I wrote several letters
asking the same thing, but got no response.
800 pounds of Apple Cinnamon Security
George> Hi. I have been trying to write up DareDevil and Captain
George> America for Champions, and I have run into a problem with
George> their weapons. They can each either throw their
George> billy-club/shield, which almost always comes back to them
George> aftwerwards, or just hold it and strike with it, which sounds
George> like a multipower, EB and HA. But, because HA is so much
George> cheaper than EB, and allows strength to add extra dice, either
George> the hand-to-hand attack does ridiculously more damage than the
George> the thrown attack, which does not seem to simulate the comics
George> very well, or the power is ridiculously inefficient. These
George> are the three options as I see them:
George> I can't think of any reasonable solution within the
George> rules, so here is my suggestion of how to add a new rule (it
George> seems to be necessary: the returning-blunt-weapon-thrower
George> seems to be a fairly common character type, at least in the
George> comics).
Well, before you go ahead and make a new power, how about altering
your interpretation of the power slightly. Why not use, Ranged
Killing Attack and Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack as the two base attacks
in the multi-power.
Both of these attacks cost the same (15 pts per D6), so you don't have
to worry about balancing it. If you don't want it to be too lethal,
you can always keep the number of dice low (1 or 2 should be enough).
This is what I did with a mentalist character I had. She had a
background as a circus performer and had a battleshield as a focus for
her multi-power that had a ranged killing attack, missile deflection,
and flight in it. (The special effect for the flight was that she
stood on the shield and lifted it with her telekinesis :). Worked
pretty well, and i didn't have to do too much juggling of points.
-lightnin
(Just a suggestion)
Lightnin, President/Founder Lots of Bogus Companies You Never Heard of
====================>Rent-A-Saviour, Incorporated<====================
"...and it hardly ever blows up anymore."
"I think I slept through my fifteen minutes of fame." - John Trussell
E. Bruce MacDougall
special power. I mean, every +1u in the MP gets you an extra three dice
of damage? I don't think so...
As for your problem, I see a very simple solution:
6 +3d6 HA, Ranged (+1/2), OAF: Club (-1)
Not bad, eh? And there is only one complication: How does your non-ranged
STR fit into this? Well, you can always buy Ranged on the STR though the
focus. For a 20 STR character the Ranged is an extra 10 active points,
or 5 character points thorugh the focus. The club is now 11 points, but
still a hell of a lot cheaper then before.
Keep in mind that your Martial Arts will *not* add to the damage (at range,
anyway).
As for the GMs who say you should buy TK and never Ranged on STR, point out
that this power is only letting you use STR dmage for the one attack. It
does not let you use any other fun TK tricks. Call it a -0 limit (ie the
SFX of the attack).
And if you have a more lenient GM, he or she will probably let you use your
normal STR, without advantages to add to the attack, but it would be +7.5
STR for every extra dice. (See notes on Damage Classes, etc.)
MacD
Keith Vaglienti
shield deleted for the sake of brevity.]
It seems to me you, and the followups I've seen to your article, are
missing the most logical, efficient, and sensible method of buying these
thrown weapons. No multipower or multiple powers needed.
Billy Club (6d6 EB, OAF: Club [-1]) 30 Active Points, 15 Points Real Cost.
There is no rule that says you can't use an Energy blast as a hand to hand
attack. If you want a more beef attack you can bump it to 8d6 for 5 more
points. Remember the number one rule of character creation, keep things
simple when you can. Sure, you could go through all sorts of complicated
maneuvers to simulate the power exactly in terms of mechanics but in the
end you should be getting the same effect I've gotten above for the same
cost.
Caps shield would use a similar mechanic but would be in a multipower
with Armor and Missile Deflection usable at range. Your problem of
players getting a tremendous increase in hand-to-hand damage with the
expenditure of one or two EP goes away as does the inefficiency.
--
-----
"I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable, and I'm not going."
Keith Vaglienti
bad...@sugar.NeoSoft.com
Steven Sharp
Ah, the HA in multipowers problem. In my opinion, 3 points for an HA is
really 5 active points of STR with the built in limit "Only for damage".
If you don't want to force the players to buy it that way, just recognize
that each d6 of HA is really 5 active points and make it use up the pool
points accordingly. I.e. a 30 point multipower can have a HA slot of at
most 6d6. If you are using a variable slot at 3d6, that is 15 points of
the pool. The 6d6 HA is still 18 base points for purposes of figuring
costs, though.
Keith Vaglienti
E. Bruce MacDougall <abh...@titan.ucs.umass.edu> wrote:
>The obscene cheapness of HAs inside multipowers is why I rule them a
>special power. I mean, every +1u in the MP gets you an extra three dice
>of damage? I don't think so...
Actually, there are two ways to keep this in check. Enforce the rule
that if you are using an HA you are limited to doing a max of 2x the DC
of the HA, just like an HKA. Also, set a limit on the maximum amount of
damage a character is allowed to do with an attack and enforce it.
In my campaign I've set a limit of 60 active points and 12d6 on attacks.
I have made exceptions to this rule but only when it is something really
integral to the character. So, for example, if a character is supposed to
be the strongest being in the world I might just allow them to have a
63-65 STR and I'd probably allow 1/2 END cost on that but to compensate,
I'd also limit the scope of the character's other powers.
William Robinson
otherwise reasonable multipower?
Laugh.
Make a 30p multipower w/6d6 EB for the thown weapon
then have an ultra slot of maybe +3d6 HtH.
If you are one of those people who cry whebn their wasting
points ( and who isnt) ask what ELSE you can stick into the
multipower. Cap would have missile deflec or +armor.
DD Swinging or something. Stick to the concept.
as for throwing HtH this is a big mistake.
1 it forces martial artists to buy even more skill levels
so they can bounce their attacks. But when they dont watch out!
a smart martial artist will get an astronomical ocv Enough to hit
my character!!
2 If the martial artists can buy this then so can the bricks.
Trust me, you expect 'The Blue Sheild' to throw his sheild at you
but when 'Granny Fanny' pulls back and hurls that titanium purse
at your butt, you will NOT be pleased.
We tried this at one point way back but sort of phased it out at
some point (before +HtH even) because even though it makes an
efficient way to spend points it just dont always work.
--
My first sigfile
Billy Robinson
bvsn...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu
dk...@cas.org
>There have been a whole lot of good suggestions to this questions, but let
>me suggest something different anyway.
>
>I've found that stretching is useful for this effect. By the HA's up to
>the level that you want and use stretching to simulate throwing the club
>(or shield or rock or chain or whatever) put the appropriate limitations
>on the stretching and viola.
>
>This can lead to some spiffy special effects for martial throw or martial
>disarm or almost any other martial attack.
>
>Plus depending on the limitations you choose, the hero might be able to do
>"trick shots" like throwing the club to turn off a light or unlatch a
>window.
>
>Of course you need to specific about how you define the limitation or it
>might lead to abuse.
>
>(Whaddya mean I can't grab him with my shield, I bought stretching!)
>
>Nate
This is the best idea I've seen for Hero in a long time. In fact I think
I'll buy all my thrown weapons this way (stretching-no grab). This also
neatly defines a short and long range catagory, stretching and non-combat
stretching. So you can figure out how far you want your short range to
be and buy that and your long range (1/2 OCV & DCV) is double that (and
you can even buy non-combat mult on the long range part).
Oooh Oooh I just thought of something else, consider the following:
13 Point Multipower (OIF Shield)
1u Missile Deflection (Thrown/Bullets/Energy Blasts)
2u +7 PD, +7 ED Armor
3u +5 Levels HA (0 End)
2u etc.
14 5" Stretching (OIF Shield, No Grab (+1/4))
Now with this multipower and the stretching bought seperatly you could,
while missile deflecting, deflect missiles for your friends (if they
where within 5 hexes of you) with the special effect that you throw
your shield blocking its path (or through several missile pathways if
you deflect multiple incoming missiles). Neat!
Also when you threw your shield at someone else, they couldn't missile
deflect/reflect it because its not a missile, but a hand to hand
attack. Excellent!
Dave.
Nathan Kurt Risk
ludator
"Hey, Vox, I just came up with this nifty power: 4d6 RKA, AVLD (Total
Defenses)!"
Why do HERO players insist on coming up with the most expensive,
roundabout ways to do a relatively simple concept? This reminds me of
the thread on Autofire M-Art attacks, where 100 different posts on pseudo
maneuvers were posted when a simple "Autofire on STR" would suffice.
Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as follows:
+2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
TADA! No one said you /had/ to throw it, so it still works, and it
balances out because (by the special effect) you can use the Range 0
attack as many times as you want, and add martial art bonuses too. BTW,
the Charge limitation is optional -- Cap didn't bother with it.
Stretching does not work for thrown weapons, as I was once dumb enough to
find out. See, a "stretched" focus /counts as your limb/. In other
words, throw the shield at Zxaxx, and you get fried by his Damage
Shield. Why go to the trouble of whipping up the limits to make
Stretching /look/ like the "Ranged" advantage? Just add Ranged(+1/2)!
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Stainless Steel Rat
ludator> Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as
ludator> follows:
ludator> +2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
useable at Range.
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John H Kim
Me again. This article regards returning thrown weapons in Hero,
in reply to George Novodvorsky. In the first section, I am trying to
interpret the (contradictory) Hero rules on the subject. In the second
section, I am reviewing George's suggestion, with some recommendations
of my own.
***************************************************************************
WHAT DO THE RULES SAY?
----------------------
OK - the precedent for thrown weapons in Hero is to build them
as HA's with "Can be thrown" which is supposedly identical to "Ranged".
This is how it is done in the basic rules for Heroic campaigns, but it
is done in _Ninja Hero_ for both Heroic and Superheroic campaigns.
This seems sensible to me, but the big question is - how
do you add in STR? The rules are _contradictory_ on this point.
In the basic rules, the section on thrown (melee) weapon building
in the basic rules suggests you add +1d6 per 5 STR, the same as for a
normal HA. This is backed up under the section on Damage Classes. There
it says that you reduce added damage classes _only_ for advantages which
directly affect how the damage is taken: thus for AP, NND, Penetrating,
and so forth, you reduce the added damage proportionately to the active
points; but for Zero END, Invisible Power Effects, and presumably Ranged,
you still get full DC adds.
This is perhaps contradicted in _Ninja Hero_, in the section on
Wild Martial Arts powers. There it appears that you cannot add STR to an
advantaged HA unless the STR is also bought with the advantage. That is,
you get _no_ STR adds to an Autofire HA, or an Area Effect HA. Under
an invisible HA, they specify that if you use STR, the effect is not
invisible.
BUT... in _Ninja Hero_ Superheroic thrown weapons are still
bought as HA with the "Ranged" advantage. Since presumably the user has
not bought his STR with "Ranged", this would mean that the user does
not get to add his STR - which is nowhere implied in that section.
The conclusion I draw is that you just add +1d6 per 5pts STR.
However, this is obviously unbalanced, as it lets bricks to their STR
damage at range for only
***************************************************************************
GEORGE'S SUGGESTION
-------------------
George Novodvorsky <g...@cs.bu.edu> wrote:
>Advantage to HA [...]: can be thrown to return (+1).
>Superheroic campaigns only.
>
>The user can "throw" the HA like a ranged attack, and have some chance of
>it returning with sufficient skill. The range of the throw is 2" per
>active point of HA: this does not go as far as an Energy Blast.
>
> The weapon does it's normal HA damage, plus the user can add damage
>from STR up to the normal HA damage again (so if the user does more damage
>with STR than with HA, he will do more damage by striking with the weapon
>than by throwing it). STR damage dice over the HA damage dice are only half
>as effective (like STR adds to most thrown weapons) and reduce the chance
>for the weapon to bounce back properly; every 2d6 STR damage more than the
>HA damage adds 1d6 total damage but subtracts one from the number needed to
>bounce back. There is also a maximum: the weapon may only do 3x its HA
>dice in damage, any dice after that only go to damage the weapon.
...
> All things considered, the +1 might be a bit much, and +3/4 might
>be more appropriate. But I prefer to err on the side of "making the new,
>untested power cost _more_ rather than less".
>
>What do all of you think? Sean Patrick Fannon? John H. Kim? Bueller?
Uh oh - am I a Champions guru now? Well, I better give a lousy
answer to correct that impression @-).
OK - overall it seems reasonable. (To the poster who complained
it was unbalanced for bricks to take this, note that George did include a
damage maximum in his advantage). Some details seem a little excessively
complicated, however (STR over twice adds half, Range is 2" per 5 actives,
STR penalty for the returning).
I think you can stick with the maximum of 3x the HA dice, and
then just make the returning and the slightly reduced range `special
effects' of the power.
+1 Ranged/Can be thrown (automatically returns or replaced)
Max damage = 3xHA
If it requires 1-2 allocated level to get the object to return, and
the object will not return if deflected/grabbed/whatever - then that is
perhaps a -1/4 limitation. If it is more difficult then perhaps you
should buy it as Burnout or Based on a Skill Roll. If you fail the
roll, the object does not return and you must recover it.
6pts 4d6 HA (-1 OAF)
5pts +1 Advantage: Thrown to return (-1 OAF)(-1/2 Based on a skill roll)
Then you can simulate a non-returning object by putting the
limitation: -1 1/4 "One recoverable Change". Similarly, you could
put "Based on a skill roll" on it to simulate it requiring a skill
roll for it to return. If it requires allocating a level, I would
call it special effects and ignore it.
6pts 4d6 HA (-1 OAF)
4pts +1 Advantage: Thrown (-1 OAF)(-1 1/4 One recoverable charge)
In all cases, the range should be based on STR - how far can you
throw the object? This is not enough of a limitation to warrant a -1/4,
IMO, so I would just leave it as a special effect.
Overall, I like it. Previously I had just been using the
usual +1/2 Ranged advantage, but I agree that this does not take
into account the STR adds, and could easily be unbalanced. Remember
that high-STR characters can always throw ordinary objects (i.e. cars,
shotputs, etc.), so letting them do damage at range is not _that_
much of a stretch.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "Whatever else is true, you - trust your little finger.
jh...@columbia.edu | Just a single little finger can... change the world."
Columbia University | - Stephen Sondheim, _Assassins_
Ron Levy
>Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
>there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
>multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
>useable at Range.
Not quite. Captain America is a character about whom stories; most
graphic, some animated, some text; are written.
The HERO system is a roleplaying game that attempts to model the genre
in which the Captain America stories are set for interactive roleplay.
While you can attempt to model Captain America's abilities in a useful
way for your game, it is casual for an author to write a valid Captain
America story within genre which will violate your model, for some
reason or another.
Obviously, it's your choice which subset of Captain America stories
you wish to model, and how faithfully, for your own purposes in the
interactive roleplaying game you wish to play.
As an example, Captain America and Hawkeye were once up against a team
of super-jugglers. Captain America threw his shield at one of the
jugglers, who, being good at catching thrown objects, caught it and
said, "Thanks. Nice shield." He proceeded to keep it through the
fight.
Under your model, it couldn't be caught in such a fashion.
So, it's up to you if you figure out how to change it, or if you don't
care, or if you claim that it was some special power of the
super-juggler who has the rather obsequious power of teleporting to
his hand any obvious, accessible focus physically thrown at him.
-Ron
John H Kim
>ludator <lud...@illuminati.io.com> writes:
>> Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as
>> +2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
>
>Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
>there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
>multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
>useable at Range.
Well, the Hand-to-Hand attack in general is fairly problematic,
and allowing it to be used at range just complicates things. As written,
a Ranged HA is cheaper than an EB, and allows you to add your STR as
well. Plus, the Ranged HA becomes *much* cheaper if you start adding
on advantages.
Even if you couldn't add STR damage, I would say a simple Ranged
HA is problematic, and if you can then it is definitely so.
Daniel Gottesman
I think stretching works fine for short range thrown weapons. Things
like immunity from damage shields are just handled under special
effects.
For longer range weapons, you want the ranged advantage, but I do
think it's badly balanced to buy this just on the HA. Here is how
I think you should do it:
Buy ranged (+1/2) on both STR and HA. The ranged on STR has a
limitation (which I would place at -1/2) so that it only works for
the thrown weapon. This makes the cost for buying ranged on an
HA with no frills roughly the same for a given total DC, no matter
what the actual STR/HA split. You will still pay more for the base
STR cost, of course.
Actually, once you take into account the likely OAF limitation, it
is cheaper to buy the ranged when the HA is bigger, so you might want
to up the limit on STR to -1 to compensate.
E.g.:
STR 30, +4d6 HA OAF (-1), with ranged on STR and HA combination costs
20 (base STR) + 6 (base HA) + 3 (ranged on HA) + 6 (ranged on STR) = 26 + 9
(assuming -1/2 limit)
STR 20, +6d6 HA OAF (-1), with ranged on STR and HA combination costs
10 (base STR) + 9 (base HA) + 4 (ranged on HA) + 4 (ranged on STR) = 19 + 8
(again with -1/2 limit)
If you use a -1 limit instead, the first example costs 5 for ranged on
STR, total cost 26 + 8, and the second costs 3 for ranged on STR, for
total cost 19 + 7.
The reason these cost more than similar EB is because you get the advantages
of a higher STR.
Daniel Gottesman
gott...@cco.caltech.edu
Steven E Barnes
>
>ludator> Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as
>ludator> follows:
>
>ludator> +2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
>
>Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
>there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
>multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
>useable at Range.
Someone on the list undoubtably reminded you that it would require your
STR to also be usable at range, and that in general, this is a questionable
rules trick. The prefered method (IMHO) is to purchase an Energy Blast.
-steve
dk...@cas.org
>(*sigh*)
>
>"Hey, Vox, I just came up with this nifty power: 4d6 RKA, AVLD (Total
>Defenses)!"
>
>Why do HERO players insist on coming up with the most expensive,
>roundabout ways to do a relatively simple concept? This reminds me of
>the thread on Autofire M-Art attacks, where 100 different posts on pseudo
>maneuvers were posted when a simple "Autofire on STR" would suffice.
>
>Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as follows:
>
>+2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
This is STR+2d6 in hand to hand and only 2d6 at range.
>TADA! No one said you /had/ to throw it, so it still works, and it
>balances out because (by the special effect) you can use the Range 0
>attack as many times as you want, and add martial art bonuses too. BTW,
>the Charge limitation is optional -- Cap didn't bother with it.
Your could not add the martial bonuses at range (unless you bought
your martial arts at range as well).
>Stretching does not work for thrown weapons, as I was once dumb enough to
>find out. See, a "stretched" focus /counts as your limb/. In other
>words, throw the shield at Zxaxx, and you get fried by his Damage Shield.
Whats wrong with that, if your shield adds HA damage in mele and you punch
Zxaxx with it you take damage even though you didn't touch him. Besides
it could be easily justified by when your weapon hits the damage shield
it is electrified/heated up/etc to the point when you catch it (in the
same second) you take the damage from the shield (which quickly
dissapates or discharges so that you don't take damage in successive
phases, unless they bought continuous: ouch).
>Why go to the trouble of whipping up the limits to make
>Stretching /look/ like the "Ranged" advantage? Just add Ranged(+1/2)!
Because ranged has a BIG set of problems associated with it which makes
your problem with stretching pale by comparison. Not only would you
have to buy ranged on your HA, but on your strength and or your martial
arts (all of your maneuvers, i.e., if you had 25 points of martial
maneuvers you would have to pay 37 to have your martial arts at range).
Now these would not normally be BIG problems except that Hero has stated
under telekinesis that you SHOULD never by strength at range, but by
telekinesis instead. Now this doesn't mean that you should strictly
adhere to this, but most people like to play TOTALY within the rules
so that if you take your character to another campaign the other GM
will have little problem with it. Plus buying telekinesis adds other
problems like: "My martial arts works with my strength and my
telekinesis". Stretching is by far the simplest most elegant method
I have seen for resolving these problems.
As always the opinions I have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
Douglas L. Vandenburgh
>Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
>there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
>multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
>useable at Range.
The only problem here is that the HA would have to be pretty hefty to make
it worth throwing the shield. If you have that sort of HA, it would get
pretty gross when not used at range.
I don't think it's that big a problem to make it a 40 pt. multi with
slots for Missle Deflection, an EB (which represents the shield that
always returns unless it's time for a plot hook), an HA with a GM
imposed limit, and a Hand Killing Attack, Takes a Full Phase. That
would pretty much cover the majority of the stuff Cap does. As far
as the fact that you *could* raise the HA slot and make it really
gross goes, that's why the GM is there to say 'No.' to players.
All the power frameworks are listed with a 'Watch me, I can be
easily abused' sign.
- Doug
--
Stainless Steel Rat
Steven> Someone on the list undoubtably reminded you that it would require
Steven> your STR to also be usable at range, and that in general, this is a
Steven> questionable rules trick. The prefered method (IMHO) is to
Steven> purchase an Energy Blast.
Unfortunately, the rules in Ninja Hero are contradictory on this topic.
It's further exacerbated by some common sense. I pick up a rock (call it a
3D6 HA, usable at range) and throw it. Why can't I add my [extra] strength
to the damage when I throw it when I, personally, don't have "usable at
range" on my strength?
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Stainless Steel Rat
John> Well, the Hand-to-Hand attack in general is fairly problematic, and
John> allowing it to be used at range just complicates things. As written,
John> a Ranged HA is cheaper than an EB, and allows you to add your STR as
John> well. Plus, the Ranged HA becomes *much* cheaper if you start adding
John> on advantages.
True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
John> Even if you couldn't add STR damage, I would say a simple Ranged HA
John> is problematic, and if you can then it is definitely so.
HA is problematic to begin with. The GM just has to be ready to say "no!"
when the abuses start.
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Kid Kibbitz
(Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
>True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
>to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
>adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
Problem with this is that STR itself costs 5 points per die, plus can be
used for a wide variety of other things as well. And, since as a general
rule it doesn't make sense to have the same cost for a power as for a
superset of that power,.....
Just MHO,
--KidKibbitz
je...@earlham.edu
ron...@sal-sun60.usc.edu (Ron Levy) writes:
>
>>Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
>>there. Cap's shield isn't a bunch of weird bullshit, it's a very simple
>>multipower with two slots: Missile Deflection and a Hand-to-Hand Attack,
>>useable at Range.
(stuff about HERO and Cap'n A deleted)
>As an example, Captain America and Hawkeye were once up against a team
>of super-jugglers. Captain America threw his shield at one of the
>jugglers, who, being good at catching thrown objects, caught it and
>said, "Thanks. Nice shield." He proceeded to keep it through the
>fight.
>
>Under your model, it couldn't be caught in such a fashion.
Depends. If he bought it as a focus, it could. (At least in my games.)
Part of the disad of having a Focus.
- Jeff
Stainless Steel Rat
Douglas> The only problem here is that the HA would have to be pretty hefty
Douglas> to make it worth throwing the shield. If you have that sort of HA,
Douglas> it would get pretty gross when not used at range.
I disagree. I'd put Cap's Strength around 25 or 30 (5 to 6 dice). Add a 6D6
HA, usable at Range for 30 more points gives him 9 to 12D6 at range (or
only 6D6, depending on which part of Ninja Hero you belive :).
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William Robinson
: >Which is what I said on the champions mailing list when this came around
: -Ron
actually this is simply missle deflection with the very
rare special effect catches objects cap's sheild is still
a focus no matter how it is bought and therefore it can be
taken away like this.
some will scream at this special effect however it has its
built in limits mainly you cant catch anything you cant lift
with causal strengh. so i cap's sheild wieghed two tons no
juggler in the world would be able to catch it.
This is contrasted to another missle deflection special FX
dodges objects, these people (ex spiderman) automatically
dodge bullets and thrown objects. They obviously would be
able to avoid incoming heavy objects.
Douglas MacDougall
>lud...@illuminati.io.com (ludator) writes:
>Why do HERO players insist on coming up with the most expensive,
>roundabout ways to do a relatively simple concept?
Good Point.
>Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as follows:
>+2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
Bad example.
How about, (say) 8d6 PB? No weird stuff at all.
Just state that some of the dice come from the person's strength. Special
Effect. *No* GM would have *any* hangups with this power. No invented
advantages, weird game dynamics or anything.
Or is it not cheap enough for you?
>>TADA! No one said you /had/ to throw it, so it still works, and it
>>balances out because (by the special effect) you can use the Range 0
>>attack as many times as you want, and add martial art bonuses too.
>Your could not add the martial bonuses at range (unless you bought
>your martial arts at range as well).
Just so you know, no GM I have ever talked to would *ever* allow Ranged
Martial Arts or Martial Arts with ranged attacks.
Doug
MacD
Badger
powers. Theoretically, he should be able to pick up any
round device and use it. The shield is just what he is skilled at.
The shield would have some incredible Armor rating(say 30 PD/30 RD resistant),
some combat skill levels, specifically for accuracy when thrown,
and some combat skill levels specifically to decrease range modifications.
That is it(all with the limitations Independent and OAF, or IAF - the shield).
Perhaps, if you wish, the shield would also have a couple dice of
HTH damage due to its toughness.
Cap. on the other hand, would have Combat Skills up the wazoo in using
the shield. Specific Combat Skill levels used for "bouncing"
the shield(and the ability to bounce it back to himself).
A special skill for catching the shield. Buy these skills as powers
and link them together(he has to successfully through the shield
before he can bounce it, he has to successfully bounce the shield
before he can catch it). His strenght should be bought with the
advantage, usable at range, and the disadvantage of focus(OAD or IAF)
-the shield). He would also have missile deflection, again with
the focus limitation. Lastly, Weapon Familiarity, his shield.
Now, his focus limitation on his powers(not the shields powers)
is not a limitation for THAT SPECIFIC SHIELD, its just a limitation
for some sort of shield. It should be noted however that the
shield takes damage whenever its used to block a weapon or thrown.
His shield is indestructible, but if he grabs a manhole cover to
perform the same tricks, it will take at most 1 die of damage before
crumpling(and sending the rest of the damage through to him).
also, don't forget to assign negative modifiers for using a weapon
he does not have weapon familiarity with.
--
-Badger
g...@panix.com
dk...@cas.org
Thats right, accessable foci can be targeted (at -2 OCV). This means that
the juggler could make his roll to catch it, but then he would have to win
a strength -vs- strength roll -vs- Captain America. You may say this does
not make sense since he no longer has contact with the shield, but remember
it was bought with stretching so he does (This is easily justified by saying
that the shield was thrown with Cap's force so the juggler must make the
Str -vs- Str roll or the shield rips out of his grasp and returns to Cap,
catching the shield is one thing holding on to it is another).
Stainless Steel Rat
>> True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
>> to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
>> adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
Kid> Problem with this is that STR itself costs 5 points per die, plus can
Kid> be used for a wide variety of other things as well. And, since as a
Kid> general rule it doesn't make sense to have the same cost for a power
Kid> as for a superset of that power,.....
Do you have a problem with HKA's cost? Or Energy Blast? Or RKA? All of
these cost 5 points per damage class, just like Strength.
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Stainless Steel Rat
Rat> Do you have a problem with HKA's cost? Or Energy Blast? Or RKA? All of
Rat> these cost 5 points per damage class, just like Strength.
Just to expand upon this, here's how I figure the 5-points per die HA:
ATTACK Cost/DC Add STR? Ranged?
Killing Attack (Ranged) 5 No Yes
Killing Attack (HTH) 5 Yes No
Energy Blast 5 No Yes
So extrapolating from that, HA would look like this:
Hand-to-hand Attack 5 Yes No
Thus it would fit in very nicely with the existing structure of the common
attack powers.
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Trevor Barrie
[Good stuff about Cap's shield deleted]
>Now, his focus limitation on his powers(not the shields powers)
>is not a limitation for THAT SPECIFIC SHIELD, its just a limitation
>for some sort of shield. It should be noted however that the
>shield takes damage whenever its used to block a weapon or thrown.
>His shield is indestructible, but if he grabs a manhole cover to
>perform the same tricks, it will take at most 1 die of damage before
>crumpling(and sending the rest of the damage through to him).
>also, don't forget to assign negative modifiers for using a weapon
>he does not have weapon familiarity with.
I agree with the main point of your post (sort of), but, just to nitpick ...
1 die of damage for a man-hole cover???? Common, when was the last time you
met an eight-year old kid (~5 STR) who could punch through a man-hole cover?
I mean, those things are steel, aren't they?
Trevor Barrie
Trevor Barrie
>Do you have a problem with HKA's cost? Or Energy Blast? Or RKA? All of
>these cost 5 points per damage class, just like Strength.
>
Yeah, but all of these powers give you something that strength doesn't. HKA
allows you to do killing damage; Energy Blast allows you to attack at range;
RKA allows you to do both of those things. But Strength does EVERYTHING a HA
does, and a whole lot else besides (such as the ability to manipulate
objects, and giving you 5.5 points of figured characteristics for every 5
points of Strength ... but don't get me started on that.:) )
Trevor Barrie
Kid Kibbitz
>>> True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
>>> to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
>>> adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
>Kid> Problem with this is that STR itself costs 5 points per die, plus can
>Kid> be used for a wide variety of other things as well. And, since as a
>Kid> general rule it doesn't make sense to have the same cost for a power
>Kid> as for a superset of that power,.....
>
>Do you have a problem with HKA's cost? Or Energy Blast? Or RKA? All of
>these cost 5 points per damage class, just like Strength.
Nope; each of these attacks has an advantage over straight STR.
HKA does killing damage.
EB is at range.
RKA is both.
STR has neither of those advantages.
(And pre-emptively: the reason that HKA is balanced vs. RKA is that STR can
add to the former but not the latter, which (more or less) offsets the
advantage of range.)
Note that I am NOT saying that all powers are perfectly balanced; not only
are they not, but they CANNOT be, because the utility of a given power is
highly dependent upon the scenario in which it is employed. Nonetheless,
one of the theories in Hero's design (and a good one, IMHO) is that a
subset of a power should be cheaper than the whole power; that is basically
what power limitations are all about.
All IMHO,
--KidKibbitz
John H Kim
on from a discussion of using HA's for thrown weapons. This is in reply to
Stainless Steel Rat, who suggested was that HA's should cost 5pts per die.
This could be fairly reasonable if you revised the cost of STR
to perhaps x3/2 rather than x1. However, as long as characters can buy
STR for the x1 cost, I think this mechanic is simply broken (As did
Kid Kibbitz).
Essentially, it means that you are directly penalizing characters
who take HA's as compared to those who take STR. For example, consider a
character with super-strong power armor and a character with a magic mace
(OIF). Both pay 5 actives (-1/2 OIF) for their power - but the power armor
character gets _alot_ more for that cost.
Stainless Steel Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>Just to expand upon this, here's how I figure the 5-points per die HA:
>
>ATTACK Cost/DC Add STR? Ranged?
>Killing Attack (Ranged) 5 No Yes
>Killing Attack (HTH) 5 Yes No
>Energy Blast 5 No Yes
>
>So extrapolating from that, HA would look like this:
>
>Hand-to-hand Attack 5 Yes No
>
>Thus it would fit in very nicely with the existing structure of the common
>attack powers.
You forgot about one:
Strength* 5 Yes Possibly
* Also adds to jumping distance, PD, REC, and STUN (total 6.5pts worth).
Further, increases lifting/carrying capacity, Grab/Escape rolls, and
bracing against KNB. The damage can be applied to throw objects, HKA's,
and almost all martial maneuvers.
>
> "JK" == John H Kim <jh...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu> writes:
>JK> Even if you couldn't add STR damage, I would say a simple Ranged HA
>JK> is problematic, and if you can then it is definitely so.
>
>HA is problematic to begin with. The GM just has to be ready to say "no!"
>when the abuses start.
Just because the GM can say "no" is not a reason to adopt abusive
mechanics. After all, why not just make EB 4pts per die? After all, the
GM can just say "no" when abuses start.
I'm not sure what I think the ideal solution should be. It would
probably include raising the cost of STR, and clearly defining the HA as
a limited version of STR. I think the cost of STR should perhaps be
x3/2, and HA should perhaps be 4pts per die.
ludator
Allston!
Ready? /Parts of NINJA HERO are utter bullsh*t/.
For example, Allston writes in NH that one cannot take a number of Wild
Martial Arts powers and put them into a Multipower, because (and I
paraphrase) the special effect "Martial Arts" is not tight enough. It is
obvious that Mr. Allston has confused Multipowers with Elemental Controls
-- you can put ANYTHING (except a special power) into a Multipower, as
long as you don't care that you can't use them all at the same time.
Similiarly, his views on adding STR dice to powers are plainly skewed. I
won't go into great detail here, except to say it is best to ignore them.
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MarkDoc582
Barrie) writes:
>agree with the main point of your post (sort of), but, just to nitpick ...
>1 die of damage for a man-hole cover???? Common, when was the last time you
>met an eight-year old kid (~5 STR) who could punch through a man-hole cover?
>I mean, those things are steel, aren't they?
Yeah - but this is the HERO universe and things there are real fragile - look
at the vehicles & walls... :)
Mark
Jose Garcia
All of the things you mention above have properties that don't come with
strength. HKA's do Killing Damage, and the other two are ranged.
--
Jose Garcia
Douglas L. Vandenburgh
>For example, Allston writes in NH that one cannot take a number of Wild
>Martial Arts powers and put them into a Multipower, because (and I
>paraphrase) the special effect "Martial Arts" is not tight enough. It is
>obvious that Mr. Allston has confused Multipowers with Elemental Controls
>-- you can put ANYTHING (except a special power) into a Multipower, as
>long as you don't care that you can't use them all at the same time.
Well, sure, if you're a ruthless powergamer with a wimpy GM. Most GM's
require there to be some relationship between the powers, simply because
they draw on a common reserve of points. After all, the GM could ask
"Well, why can't you use power X, which is totally unrelated in any
way, shape, or form to power Y, while you are running power Y?". If
the only answer you have is "Well, 'cause I bought it through a multipower
with ultraslots....", then you're probably only doing it that way to
Save Points and Have More Power. Neither reason carries a lot of weight
in good groups.
>Similiarly, his views on adding STR dice to powers are plainly skewed. I
>won't go into great detail here, except to say it is best to ignore them.
I've never met two Champs GMs who ever agreed on how STR should add to
advantaged HA's and HKA's. It's one of those problem issues that has
never been set down in stone anywhere and everyone has their own opinion
on the subject.
- Doug
--
Kid Kibbitz
>>> I won't go into great detail here, except to say it is best to ignore
>>> them.
>Douglas> add to advantaged HA's and HKA's.
>
>Most GMs I know tend toward the "you don't get nothin' for nothin'"
>argument. So you have to put the appropriate advantage on your STR in order
>to add it to attacks with advantages.
Well, I guess I'm not "most GM's" :), but I allow plain STR to add to an
advantaged attack. Of course, it doesn't go 5 STR/die, it goes 1
STR/active point, so that, e.g., on an attack with +3/4 worth of
advantages, each DC would "cost" 8.75 STR (rounded). As usual, the attack
can be no more than doubled.
Just MHO,
--KidKibbitz
Stainless Steel Rat
>> Similiarly, his views on adding STR dice to powers are plainly skewed.
>> I won't go into great detail here, except to say it is best to ignore
>> them.
Douglas> I've never met two Champs GMs who ever agreed on how STR should
Douglas> add to advantaged HA's and HKA's.
Most GMs I know tend toward the "you don't get nothin' for nothin'"
argument. So you have to put the appropriate advantage on your STR in order
to add it to attacks with advantages.
Douglas> It's one of those problem issues that has never been set down in
Douglas> stone anywhere and everyone has their own opinion on the subject.
It doesn't help that the errata in AC#17 (I think) doesn't mention this at
all.
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Trevor Barrie
>
>Yeah - but this is the HERO universe and things there are real fragile - look
>at the vehicles & walls... :)
>
Fragile?!?!? Are you kidding??? I haven't looked that closely at all the
stats, but I've noticed that tank stats in Champs are absurd. I keep
thinking back to those old issues of the Hulk where he's fighting the army,
and usually has a pretty easy time of it. A tank as described in Champions
could roll right over a half-dozen Hulks.
Trevor Barrie
Jose Garcia
In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
People aren't fragile though, I person with a Body of 15 or higher could
concievably survive a jump out of an airplane (without a parachute).
--
Jose Garcia
Marty Nix
>In article <2qeo2h$b...@bud.peinet.pe.ca>,
>Trevor Barrie <tba...@bud.peinet.pe.ca> wrote:
>>In article <2qck5r$k...@search01.news.aol.com> markd...@aol.com (MarkDoc582) writes:
[stuff about fragility of stuff in Hero deleted]
>>Fragile?!?!? Are you kidding??? I haven't looked that closely at all the
>>stats, but I've noticed that tank stats in Champs are absurd. I keep
>>thinking back to those old issues of the Hulk where he's fighting the army,
>>and usually has a pretty easy time of it. A tank as described in Champions
>>could roll right over a half-dozen Hulks.
The problem with STR in Hero is that lifting ability increases
geometrically while everything else increases linearly. This was Hero's
answer to the ultra-powerful lifting capability of heroes in DC-style
comics before the power-down, and it carried over into the current rules.
The way to mimic the Hulk is to do buy him with a 60 STR with an increase
when Enraged or Berserked. Also, there's a modified throwing chart in one
of the Adventurer's Clubs based on lifting power instead of that silly
linear system in the book. (It also makes a more realistic leaping
chart.) On top of all that, buy him about +8d6 HA and he'll be back to
full tank-smashing power in no time.
> In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
>Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
>
> People aren't fragile though, I person with a Body of 15 or higher could
>concievably survive a jump out of an airplane (without a parachute).
As far as the damage-dealing capabilities of normals go, I don't see them
as being too out of line. I've known people of moderate phyical abilities
who, with sufficient provocation, have taken out their anger on walls or
cars and done some damage. Anyone who wanted to put the effort into it
could probably dent a car door or rip it off its hinges through their own
strength.
As far as the damage-absorbing capabilities of normals go, you're right.
A little while ago we had a discussion of the classic Three-Story Normal
Drop. Take a straight Hero normal and a three story building and, well,
you get the idea. Where a real person would be street pizza, a Hero
normal is an outpatient at the local clinic. He _maybe_ breaks a leg.
The source of this is because Hero was originally designed as Champions,
the Super Role-Playing Game! (tm) Comic book normals, especially heroic
ones, are just more durable than your average joe. This is why I'm not
too fond of heroic-level games using Hero unless the genre calls for that
kind of super-survivability; all but the most lethal of weapons using the
special rules take two or three hits to take out even a weak opponent.
Oh, well. Enough rambling. The point is that Hero has its faults like
any other game system, but I find that the flexibility of the system makes
it easier to kludge a solution. (In the case of normals' durability, I
created an Everyman Vulnerability to Everything. Anyone who had no
business surviving, didn't.)
Later...
--
Marty Nix | "It should never be forgotten that without some foundation
gt1926b@ | of reality, science fiction would be impossible, and that
prism.gatech.edu | therefore exact knowledge is the friend, not the enemy, of
Georgia Tech | imagination and fantasy." -- Arthur C. Clarke
John Cooper
> Even if you couldn't add STR damage, I would say a simple Ranged
But what is the difference, mechanics-wise, between a brick who throws his
shield (let's call him Shield) and a brick who picks up a manhole cover (let's
call him Manhole) and throws it? Let's further assume that the shield and the
manhole cover have identical DEF/BODY.
Manhole gets to do up DEF+BODY in damage classes with the manhole, but the
damage delivered is simply STR damage. If he has 40 STR and the manhole
cover has DEF+BODY of at least 8, then throwing this object at someone
results in 8 dice being tossed for damage. This is the standard HERO way
of Throwing Objects for damage.
Why should the mechanics for what Shield does be any different? The fact
that he pays points for his Thrown Object only says to me that he always
has access to that object (unless Limitations allow for it to be taken
away or lost; i.e., focus). I would write up the shield as:
HA 8D6, Ranged (+1/2), OAF shield (-1), No STR adds (-1/4)
1 Recoverable Charge
All this does is provide a way for Shield to buy a more-or-less permanent
manhole cover to throw at people. The mechanics should be the same IMO.
HA damage classes normally add to STR damage. But a thrown object does not
add to STR. A thrown object does straight STR damage up to its DEF+BODY.
I see no point in making the mechanics for this more complicated just
because the object is someone's focus.
In the above example, I'm using HA to represent the character's inherent
STR, being applied to a thrown object. It shouldn't be adding its DCs to
the very STR is represents. That is silly.
-John
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| John R. Cooper | Internet: j...@vivitech.com, |
| Vivid Technologies, Inc. | jco...@world.std.com |
| Waltham, MA 02154 | AOL: JRCooper (jrco...@aol.com) |
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| "God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends." |
| This may not be true, but it sounds good and is no sillier than any |
| other theology. |
| -- Long's Notes -- |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Trevor Barrie
>
>The problem with STR in Hero is that lifting ability increases
>geometrically while everything else increases linearly. This was Hero's
>answer to the ultra-powerful lifting capability of heroes in DC-style
>comics before the power-down, and it carried over into the current rules.
>The way to mimic the Hulk is to do buy him with a 60 STR with an increase
>when Enraged or Berserked. Also, there's a modified throwing chart in one
>of the Adventurer's Clubs based on lifting power instead of that silly
>linear system in the book. (It also makes a more realistic leaping
>chart.) On top of all that, buy him about +8d6 HA and he'll be back to
>full tank-smashing power in no time.
>
something generally adds 1 BODY. But I do agree that Champions doesn't take
the geometric scale far enough.
By the way, a geometric scale is still necessary for simulating DC
characters. Superman's strength in the DC system is 25, which translates to
125 in Champions. If you used a linear scale for Strength, he would need a
Strength on the scale of 30 trillion.
As for the Hulk's STR, strictly according to his stats in the Marvel
Universe Handbook, he should have something like 48 STR + extra when he's
angry. But I agree most people would give him 60 STR. I'm not sure I see the
justification for the HA though; I don't see his punching power as being
that much greater than his lifting power.
Trevor Barrie
James J Davis
>True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
>to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
>adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
Gee, I always thought I'd said things like that too. :)
>HA is problematic to begin with. The GM just has to be ready to say "no!"
>when the abuses start.
Then why base concepts on it when you can just use something like EB with
SFX modifications? Remember, it is *still* an object that falls into the
standard throwing rules, so it's not like we're worried about a STR 80
brick doing really pathetic damage with it. He's still capable of up to
16d6, depending on the DEF of the object (all 16d6 for an indestructable
focus).
-james
James J Davis
>Steven> The prefered method (IMHO) is to purchase an Energy Blast.
>Unfortunately, the rules in Ninja Hero are contradictory on this topic.
And are more important than either common sense or the basic rulesbook?
I think not. Ninja Hero has some notably problematic rules, I don't find
it a very good piece of evidence in a discussion.
In this case, the effect of stronger people doing more damage is covered
by the throwing rules.
-james
Tim Spock Larson
>John> Well, the Hand-to-Hand attack in general is fairly problematic, and
>John> allowing it to be used at range just complicates things. As written,
>John> a Ranged HA is cheaper than an EB, and allows you to add your STR as
>John> well. Plus, the Ranged HA becomes *much* cheaper if you start adding
>John> on advantages.
>True, but then I already have a few problems with the 3-points per die HA
>to begin with. Personally I think it should be 5 points per die and STR
>adds to it just like STR adds to HKA, but that's me :).
>John> is problematic, and if you can then it is definitely so.
>HA is problematic to begin with. The GM just has to be ready to say "no!"
>when the abuses start.
I agree with this (been thinking about it myself recently). HA is a "normal"
attack, adding to STR. HKA is "killing" attack, STR adds DCs. EB is a
"normal" attack, RKA is a "killing attack".
All of these cost 5 pts per DC, _except_ HA. What is the reasoning behind
this? How is HA less useful than the others that it can be bought more
cheaply?
Hand attacks are not as good as ranged attacks, because they have no
range...oh, but you can add STR in so that makes up for it. This works
equally well for "normal" HAs or "killing" HAs (HKAs). So...why is HA
cheaper per DC?
Personally, I think it was another typo from our friends at ICE. I've
been SERIOUSLY contemplating changing the cost of HA to 5 points for my
game. (Not that it would make much difference, because my group seems
to have a fondness for killing attacks...) What do you folks out there
in netland think?
PS I've also been thinking about making the control cost of a VPP equal
to the pool cost, so that allowing them into my game won't rest so heavily
on my mind. I see too much potential for abuse in them, but I'd still like
to allow my players the flexibility they offer.
Alan Barclay
>In article <2q8nqe$o...@bud.peinet.pe.ca>, tba...@bud.peinet.pe.ca (Trevor
>Barrie) writes:
>>agree with the main point of your post (sort of), but, just to nitpick ...
>>1 die of damage for a man-hole cover???? Common, when was the last time you
>>met an eight-year old kid (~5 STR) who could punch through a man-hole cover?
>>I mean, those things are steel, aren't they?
As I calculate it from the rules a manhole cover has 6 def and 9 body. That's not a
1d6 pushover.
Alan
Marty Nix
>
>I agree with this (been thinking about it myself recently). HA is a "normal"
>attack, adding to STR. HKA is "killing" attack, STR adds DCs. EB is a
>"normal" attack, RKA is a "killing attack".
>All of these cost 5 pts per DC, _except_ HA. What is the reasoning behind
>this? How is HA less useful than the others that it can be bought more
>cheaply?
5 pts of STR = 1 DC, right? Except that STR does other stuff, like
lifting, throwing, leaping, adding to figured characteristics, right?
Therefore, any power that adds 1 DC of damage to a hand-to-hand attack but
doesn't give all those extra abilities should be worth less than 5 points,
right? I'll bet that if you give 5 points of STR a high enough limitation
to remove all but its damage-dealing abilities, you'll come up with a real
cost lower than 3 points per DC. (Keeping in mind that limited STR would
still add it's damage level before a Haymaker multiplier, instead of after
like HA.) If anything, the folks at HERO bumped up the price on this one,
for the sake of any game balance at all.
Look, I've been trying to avoid this insane thread, but this really tears
it. Here's how you keep the low cost of HA's in line: set a DC limit on
your campaign and enforce it. All the active points in the world don't
matter if the attack is illegal in the game.
As far as actually throwing anything goes, try this: buy your focus with
whatever ability it's supposed to have, like Missile Deflection, or HA.
Adjust the DEF if necessary to reflect the focus's toughness, if
the DEF figured from the Active Cost doesn't cut it (it's really just a
special effect, anyway). Then, without having to buy any other
complicated abilities, THROW THE DAMNED THING AT SOMEBODY. If you want it
to come back to you, use a skill level to bounce it off your target and
make it come back at you. How you catch the thing is between you and your
GM, but I'd recommend allocating another skill level. Or, assuming your
thingie doesn't weigh a ton, use casual STR. In any case, I guarantee you
that it will work just like a thrown object, because that's what it is.
je...@earlham.edu
Only problem here is that nobody would buy a Hand attack, they'd buy strength
instead. More useful for the same cost.
5 pts of strength gives you +1d6 damage, plus extra leaping, lifting etc, and
lets you add more to any HKAs you might have.
5 pts of HA (under your system gives you...+1d6 damage.
Has anybody thought that perhaps STR needs to be more expensive? Like 1.5 or 2
points per +1?
- Jeff
I've been having trouble with the news server here. If you see this at your
site, send me a note saying so. Thanks.
Terrence W Wright
: In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
: Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
So this is a problem? I have seen an *average* man run right through
a wall, and I have seen a crazed man singlehandedly batter a car to
pieces with his bare hands. (There is more to the story than this, but
it was a large man wearing nothing but a pair of jeans whose wife was trying
to leave him. She had made it to the car with her stuff before he woke from
a nap, but he disabled the car before she could drive away. It took seven
policemen to corral him, and I was told later that he had broken both his
hands, an arm, and a leg. I have no idea if he was on drugs or not, but
I would hazard a guess...)
Terry Wright | "After all, why should I go to bed every
Tww...@cs.usask.ca | night? Sleep is only a habit."
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Sir William Van Horne, 1913
her...@earlham.edu
>>>>>>> "John" == John H Kim <jh...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu> writes:
>been SERIOUSLY contemplating changing the cost of HA to 5 points for my
>game. (Not that it would make much difference, because my group seems
>to have a fondness for killing attacks...) What do you folks out there
>in netland think?
attacks, PLUS gives you figured stats (someone said 5.5 for each 5 pts of
STR.) No one would EVER buy it, just STR (only for doing damage) which
would cost less and give stats unless it were (No figured characteristics)
in which case the cost would only be about 2.5/die rather than the 3 you
have now...And they'd need (doesn't add to HKA/weapon damage) now we're
down to about 2pts/die...
>
>PS I've also been thinking about making the control cost of a VPP equal
>to the pool cost, so that allowing them into my game won't rest so heavily
>on my mind. I see too much potential for abuse in them, but I'd still like
>to allow my players the flexibility they offer.
>
Ah, here is a much better question. I think the VPP needs tampering...Er,
adjusting. As stated in the rules its power is kept down by artificial
restrictions (Powers cannot exceed base pool cost in active points). And,
even, cannot be a multipower slot is artificial... I don't like elemental
controls since there's no restriction, just advantage, but anyway...
I think that as it is stated now, the VPP is really just a pool of points
with the advantages (variable special effects(any)), (variable
advantages), (varible limitatations), and a different advantage, what
really makes a VPP, (variable power(any)), WITH the limitations on these
advantages (extra time), (skill roll), and (needs laboratory). The
variable advantages should probably just be worked into the variable power
advantage, since it works a little differently... But the point is by
letting players decide which of these advantages they want on their pool,
you would have a VPP which is more flexible. They could have a VPP with
limited variations on special effects, which would cost less, or a
limitation on what powers it could produce, or what advantages it could
use, rather than all of the advantages always bought to the level (any)
which many GMs won't want in their campaigns and players don't want to pay
for. Also by paying realistic costs for the advantages you get, players
could put in powers which have more active cost than the pools base. This
would allow their use in low level games, where most characters have many
limitations on their powers, although they can do powerful things (the
mage who can summon Old Ones in his basement given a year and a number of
sacrifices... )
Just some thoughts, I should try to work out the specifics, although I
also feel like forgetting the rules and playing diceless(few dice) since
the question has come up...
-seth
I am denial guilt and fear(and I control you)
Phantom of the Library
have to say that "they're stunts I pull with my deadly hands of kung fu"
counts in most areas of the English-speaking world as "some relationship."
Voxbat's point stands: Allston just kinda bonked this one.
L. G.
claff...@csusys.ctstateu.edu
> Fragile?!?!? Are you kidding??? I haven't looked that closely at all the
> stats, but I've noticed that tank stats in Champs are absurd. I keep
> thinking back to those old issues of the Hulk where he's fighting the army,
> and usually has a pretty easy time of it. A tank as described in Champions
> could roll right over a half-dozen Hulks.
Actually, one time I made up what I considered to be a "realistic" Huey Cobra,
using a copy of _Jane's All The World's Aircraft_. It came out to over 400 real
points. It's my guess that the vehicles from the book are severely
underpowered...
> Trevor Barrie
Joe Claffey
<claff...@ccsu.ctstateu.edu>
Stainless Steel Rat
jeffj> Has anybody thought that perhaps STR needs to be more expensive?
jeffj> Like 1.5 or 2 points per +1?
5 points of Strength gives you 5.5 "free" points (+1 PD, +1 REC, +2.5
STUN), in addition to the normal uses of STR. For any characterisitc, it is
the most cost-effective of all because it's cheap.
HA at 5 points per DC isn't too expensive, STR at 5 points per DC is way
too inexpensive :).
\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== I'd rather be a pig than a fascist. --Porco Rosso (The Crimson Pig) ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Chris Olson
|> Dave writes:
|> >lud...@illuminati.io.com (ludator) writes:
|>
|> >Why do HERO players insist on coming up with the most expensive,
|> >roundabout ways to do a relatively simple concept?
|>
|> Good Point.
|>
|> >Want to simulate a thrown weapon? Do this -- buy 1 power, as follows:
|> >+2d6 HA, Ranged, x1 recoverable charge on Ranged, OAF. (4 points)
|>
|> Bad example.
|>
|> How about, (say) 8d6 PB? No weird stuff at all.
|>
|> Just state that some of the dice come from the person's strength. Special
|> Effect. *No* GM would have *any* hangups with this power. No invented
|> advantages, weird game dynamics or anything.
|>
|> Or is it not cheap enough for you?
|>
|> >>TADA! No one said you /had/ to throw it, so it still works, and it
|> >>balances out because (by the special effect) you can use the Range 0
|> >>attack as many times as you want, and add martial art bonuses too.
|>
|> >Your could not add the martial bonuses at range (unless you bought
|> >your martial arts at range as well).
|>
|> Just so you know, no GM I have ever talked to would *ever* allow Ranged
|> Martial Arts or Martial Arts with ranged attacks.
|>
|>
|> Doug
|> MacD
Actually, IMHO :-) the best way to by a thrown axe in champions is to by
Hand-Killing-Attack, ranged, x1 recoverable charge, OAF. This let's you
do everything you wanted too, and it doesn't break any rules (add STR, etc).
I beleive the rules say you cannot by HA at range (it would be way too cheap).
The reason it is illegal is that HA adds to STR, and STR cannot be bought at
range (explicitly tells you to buy telkinesis instead).
Make the HKA 1d6 (no book, can't give you the points). This let's you buy it
as a power, but if you need an axe and are playing non-superheroic, why not
just get a throwing axe? Why worry about the points? If it's super-heroic,
just by an 8d6 Energy Blast (physical) and say the special effect is a thrown
axe...
just my two cents
Chris
--
// ch...@Sterling.COM | Send comp.sources.x submissions to:
\X/ Amiga: The only way to fly! | sour...@sterling.com
"It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer..."
GCS d++(--) -p+ c++ !l u++ e+ m+(-) s++/++ n h--- f+ g+++ w+ t++ r+ y+
marlin w frederick jr
|> As far as the damage-absorbing capabilities of normals go, you're right.
|> A little while ago we had a discussion of the classic Three-Story Normal
|> Drop. Take a straight Hero normal and a three story building and, well,
|> you get the idea. Where a real person would be street pizza, a Hero
|> normal is an outpatient at the local clinic. He _maybe_ breaks a leg.
I have had two experiences along these lines. First a friend of mine
jumped from a fourth floor window onto a solid concrete side-walk (long story).
The result was a broken blood vessel in both ankles and a bruised heel. He
obviously landed on his feet. I my self once fell from a tree about 40 feet up
and landed on my butt. I was about 12 years old and after the shock, I just
climbed back up the tree. It wasn't until a few years later that I measured the
height from were I fell and was surprised to say the least. I did fall on solid
packed earth not concrete.
My experience is a "normal" person would very likely survive a three
story fall, so why are you upset about the result the Hero system gives? A
possible broken leg sounds resonable.
Musings from a GURPS/HERO gamer.
--
_____ _____
( ___ )------------------------------------------------------------( ___ )
| | FROM: Marlin Frederick ADDRESS: mar...@crystal.cirrus.com | |
| | OBLIGATORY QUOTE: Ambition is a poor excuse for not | |
|___| having sense enough to be lazy. - Charlie McCarthy |___|
(_____)------------------------------------------------------------(_____)
Scott Sanford
> People aren't fragile though, I person with a Body of 15 or higher could
>concievably survive a jump out of an airplane (without a parachute).
Don't laugh. It's rare, but it has happened. I'm reminded of a pilot
(Russian, I think, might have been British; it's been a long time) who got
shot down at 30,000ft. He fell. Witnesses at the site saw him hit and
BOUNCE on grassy earth. The Germans who took him in wouldn't believe that
he didn't have a 'chute until they searched the area and came up empty.
Damage? He broke his leg.
Sometimes you roll really well... :-)
--
Scott Sanford, wyv...@agora.rain.com <<witty.quote not found>>
James J Davis
[on the idea of changing HA to 5 pts per die]
>You CAN'T do that. That would cost as much as STR, which adds to more
>attacks, PLUS gives you figured stats (someone said 5.5 for each 5 pts of
>STR.) No one would EVER buy it, just STR (only for doing damage) which
>would cost less and give stats unless it were (No figured characteristics)
>in which case the cost would only be about 2.5/die rather than the 3 you
>have now...And they'd need (doesn't add to HKA/weapon damage) now we're
>down to about 2pts/die...
The reason why 5 pts per die seems 'expensive' is becuase you are forgetting
all the little things that HA lets you do, like deliver full damage on move
bys, have a lower active cost, etc. I *DID* change HA to 5 pts per die,
and your prediction about nobody ever buying it didn't come true. Instead,
you didn't have people forcing it into their character so they could take
advantage of the rules abuse also. I found that change pleasing. In short,
this isn't the one-sided issue you are making it out to be.
-james
James J Davis
>Personally, I think it was another typo from our friends at ICE. I've
>been SERIOUSLY contemplating changing the cost of HA to 5 points for my
>game. (Not that it would make much difference, because my group seems
>to have a fondness for killing attacks...) What do you folks out there
>in netland think?
I doubt it was a typo. I like to call it a 'mistake'. Happens to everbody.
-james
James J Davis
>Look, I've been trying to avoid this insane thread, but this really tears
>it. Here's how you keep the low cost of HA's in line: set a DC limit on
>your campaign and enforce it. All the active points in the world don't
>matter if the attack is illegal in the game.
I hate to say it, but instead of artificially protecting it, why not just
fix it? Remember, rules rapists often get thier advantages by saving points
and applying the savings to other areas. So, the cost is *still* a problem,
no matter what the DC limit is.
-james
Alan Barclay
>> In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
>>Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
>in the old rules (pre 1984?), before vehicles had defense, yup. in a
>four color (and some others), where humans can haymaker & push at will,
>without any kind of blow-thru rules, yup. in just about all the games
>i see nowadays, nope. even those normals with martial arts will end up
>pupling their arms/feet if they are normal (most of the time; there is
>always an exception, including to this exception ;]).
What rules do you use for applying damage to people who punch walls?
Alan
--
Support Your Local Writer!
Buy volume ten of L. Ron Hubbard's Writers of the Future Anthology, June/94.
(Look for my name inside the front cover.)
Douglas L. Vandenburgh
In a previous article, da...@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) says:
>I hate to say it, but instead of artificially protecting it, why not just
>fix it?
Well, every DC limit is artificial. Almost every PC could find the points
to raise their main attack 2 or 3 damage classes. It's not a question of
cost. I think one of the things that annoys Marty and others is the
'The system should be altered so certain things cost more because these
things are often abused.' threads. They just seem silly because the
whole problem isn't that the system is crocked, it's that the GM doesn't
say 'No, that's a crock. Take it down.' to her players when they are
crockin something.
>Remember, rules rapists often get thier advantages by saving points
>and applying the savings to other areas. So, the cost is *still* a problem,
>no matter what the DC limit is.
The cost is not a problem, the rules rapist is. Either the GM can handle
the RR, in which case beating the Hero system all out of shape is needless,
or the GM can't handle the RR, in which case the system mangling will go on
and on and on as the GM struggles to stay one step ahead of the RR. Why not
just eject said RR and save yourself the work?
- Doug
--
Spam El - Last Spam of Krypton
>In article <1994May8.0...@dunix.drake.edu> tel...@dunix.drake.edu (Tim "Spock" Larson) writes:
>>
>>I agree with this (been thinking about it myself recently). HA is a "normal"
>>attack, adding to STR. HKA is "killing" attack, STR adds DCs. EB is a
>>"normal" attack, RKA is a "killing attack".
>>All of these cost 5 pts per DC, _except_ HA. What is the reasoning behind
>>this? How is HA less useful than the others that it can be bought more
>>cheaply?
>
>5 pts of STR = 1 DC, right? Except that STR does other stuff, like
>lifting, throwing, leaping, adding to figured characteristics, right?
>
>Therefore, any power that adds 1 DC of damage to a hand-to-hand attack but
>doesn't give all those extra abilities should be worth less than 5 points,
>right? I'll bet that if you give 5 points of STR a high enough limitation
>to remove all but its damage-dealing abilities, you'll come up with a real
>cost lower than 3 points per DC. (Keeping in mind that limited STR would
>still add it's damage level before a Haymaker multiplier, instead of after
>like HA.) If anything, the folks at HERO bumped up the price on this one,
>for the sake of any game balance at all.
well... yes, in theory. however, you really have to take into account
the math of the hero system. i agree with you that HA is sort of like
having "STR, only to do damage & not with fig chars & ..."; the value
would be somewhere between -1/2 & -3/4 to get the current value of HA.
the only problem is the base value under the rules now. HA with AP on
it doesn't work quite out like the same value of STR with AP bought on
it. its the same old "i'll buy a real small RKA, and then buy lots of
advantages on it, cuz they have such a small base to multiply".
i go back and forth on this, partially cuz my players are generally so
good. i don't have the kind of problems gms have, so my view may be
seen as biased.
>Look, I've been trying to avoid this insane thread, but this really tears
>it. Here's how you keep the low cost of HA's in line: set a DC limit on
>your campaign and enforce it. All the active points in the world don't
>matter if the attack is illegal in the game.
excellent suggestion; its what we use. we have characters varying all
over the point range (and i really mean all over) playing in the same game.
the only requirement is being in the right power level.
joe
--
Beware, else I'll use my Proper Noun's Adjective Noun of Adverbially Verbing!
Spam El - Last Spam of Krypton
>Trevor Barrie <tba...@bud.peinet.pe.ca> wrote:
>>In article <2qck5r$k...@search01.news.aol.com> markd...@aol.com (MarkDoc582) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Yeah - but this is the HERO universe and things there are real fragile - look
>>>at the vehicles & walls... :)
>>>
>>
>>Fragile?!?!? Are you kidding??? I haven't looked that closely at all the
>>stats, but I've noticed that tank stats in Champs are absurd. I keep
>>thinking back to those old issues of the Hulk where he's fighting the army,
>>and usually has a pretty easy time of it. A tank as described in Champions
>>could roll right over a half-dozen Hulks.
hmm... opinion here.
the old hulk was GDS (gosh durn strong). true, he would wipe out tanks
at will, but assuming we are even slightly generous, we can give him more
than a 60 strength, probably more like 90+ (grond?). now, looking thru
some old hulks, i see a lot of strikes that look a lot like haymakers.
with that in mind... 27 BODY per strike. wrecks most of the vehicles
in the hero book, heavily damages the rest. also assuming we give him
more than a normal speed ("how can anything that strong be that fast?"),
he should be able to take out a whole bunch of tanks, barring striking
only at mbts and hitting front on only. of course, not all of them were
completely wrecked, but most of those were vehicles he didn't turn his
full attention to, or get mad enough at.
oh, and if that doesn't convince you, i'll fall back on "its a comic book,
and writers don't have to follow character sheets". :)
> In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
>Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
in the old rules (pre 1984?), before vehicles had defense, yup. in a
four color (and some others), where humans can haymaker & push at will,
without any kind of blow-thru rules, yup. in just about all the games
i see nowadays, nope. even those normals with martial arts will end up
pupling their arms/feet if they are normal (most of the time; there is
always an exception, including to this exception ;]).
> People aren't fragile though, I person with a Body of 15 or higher could
>concievably survive a jump out of an airplane (without a parachute).
yup, again assuming a more four color world. even tho 15 BODY is pretty
tough, that person, assuming base human def, will take 28 BODY, not killing
him/her outright, but getting pretty close (~30 seconds to death). even a
max human pd (8) puts the person at -7 BODY, just over a minute from death.
don't even talk about STUN.
if you are in a normals game, you're probably maimed for life; there's
also the possibility that the GM rules the character dead outright (generally
reserved for NPCs, but...).
there are rules for dealing with normals; cuz of the genre that hero
does most often (supers), these are generally relegated to optional rules,
since one doesn't want to slow down the game more than they have to.
Lazarus Long
SSR> Unfortunately, the rules in Ninja Hero are contradictory on this
SSR> topic. It's further exacerbated by some common sense. I pick up a rock
SSR> (call it a 3D6 HA, usable at range) and throw it. Why can't I add my
SSR> [extra] strength to the damage when I throw it when I, personally,
SSR> don't have "usable at range" on my strength?
Actually, a normal rock isn't a "3d6 HA, usable at range" object.
The throwing rules say that It's an object with a certain def and
body that if thrown, will do damage based on the thrower's STR,
limited by it's ability to be broken.
* Origin: Meridian -*- Mesquite, Tx. (214) 682-0721 -*- (1:124/6008)
Christoph...@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com
>Look, I've been trying to avoid this insane thread, but this really tears
>it. Here's how you keep the low cost of HA's in line: set a DC limit on
>your campaign and enforce it. All the active points in the world don't
>matter if the attack is illegal in the game.
>>da...@cwis.unomaha.edu replies:
>>I hate to say it, but instead of artificially protecting it, why not just
>>fix it? Remember, rules rapists often get thier advantages by saving
points
>>and applying the savings to other areas. So, the cost is *still* a
problem,
>>no matter what the DC limit is.
>>
>>-james
I wouldn't call this artificially protecting it. It's the GM's job to set
a DC limit. The HA power almost demands a Focus, so the character will not
have this attack all the time. I don't feel the cost is too cheap for this
attack, but if you do, try increasing it to 4 or 5 pts/DC. You don't need
anyone's permission to make a house rule (and the various books of the HERO
system repeatedly encourage you to change anything you don't like.
I'll tell you this now. If you make the cost of HA 5 pts/DC, any character
I was building would put those 5 pts into STR, so I'd get the extra DC and
increase my secondary stats and be able to lift more.
Now. On to the Captain America debate:
I see two ways for the "throwing the shield" attack to be done. 1) (and my
personal favourite) an HA, Ranged, 1 Recoverable Charge. 2) (if you want
it to always come back) Stretching.
Trevor Barrie
>the old hulk was GDS (gosh durn strong). true, he would wipe out tanks
>at will, but assuming we are even slightly generous, we can give him more
>than a 60 strength, probably more like 90+ (grond?). now, looking thru
>some old hulks, i see a lot of strikes that look a lot like haymakers.
>with that in mind... 27 BODY per strike. wrecks most of the vehicles
Slightly generous? Joe, you make Santa Claus look stingy :). Looking up
Hulk's stats in the Offical Handbook of the Marvel Universe and comparing it
to the Champions Strength chart, you find the Hulk has about 48 STR, more
when he's mad. (How much more is a good question, but I don't think we can
reasonably say more than +10, maybe +15). Now, granted, most GMs will fudge
a little, but there's no way I can see going higher than 60 STR, 70 when he's
mad.
So we have a 21D6 Haymaker, which means he can completely destroy a tank with
38 hits to the front, or 10 hits to the back or sides. That ain't the Hulk
I know:) (Or, more accurately, those ain't the tanks i know).
Trevor Barrie
Alan Barclay
Remember that there's no mechanic which prevents a character from spending
100 points on STR, yet most GMs limit their PCs to the 50-70 pt max.
Are you suggesting the whole system be revamped to make high scores
more costly? Isn't that just as artifical a solution as just declaring
a cieling?
her...@earlham.edu
But, the trouble here is that Champs logarithmic progression for lifting
doesn't quite fit with their straight progression for damage. You might
expect that someone twice as strong(can lift twice as much) could punch
through twice as much armor. Not so in champs, for a high strengtch
character it's closer to +10% damage. 55 str lifts twice 50 str but does
only 11 dice compared to 10 at 50 str. If you want realism, changing
lifting multiples to x2 for 10 str might help. But you don't want that
tank any less sturdy. Most low DEF objects in champs aren't sturdy
enough. People routinely run through walls using those rules.
James J Davis
>>I hate to say it, but instead of artificially protecting it, why not just
>>fix it?
>Well, every DC limit is artificial. Almost every PC could find the points
>to raise their main attack 2 or 3 damage classes. It's not a question of
>cost.
It's entirely a matter of cost. Yes, anybody can buy a bigger attack.
However, to get a bigger attack without having to have paid an appropriate
amount of points is a problem, a crock. Now, when you see the same thing
being abused, over and over and over and over, doesn't this say something
to you? Also, when you see it being abused *accidentally* by non-rules
rapists, doesn't that say something to you? The problem with Hand Attack
is that it is so incredibly crocked that it's hard to use it in an equitable
way.
Now, the point being that you can take care of this problem without taking
from the ultimate flexibility of the Hero System. So, as I stated before,
why protect a broken mechanic. Why not just fix it? Or just delete it,
since it's one of the most pointless mechanics in the Hero System, ever
since 'no figured characteristics' came out, you can just buy limited STR.
-james
Stainless Steel Rat
>>>>> writes:
Lazarus> Actually, a normal rock isn't a "3d6 HA, usable at range" object.
Lazarus> The throwing rules say that It's an object with a certain def and
Lazarus> body that if thrown, will do damage based on the thrower's STR,
Lazarus> limited by it's ability to be broken.
Then how is it that I can pick up a rock and do something violent like
hitting someone with it, doing much more damage than I could do with my
fists?
\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== History shows again and again/How nature points up the folly of men ==
== --Blue Oyster Cult, "Godzilla" ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
James J Davis
>I wouldn't call this artificially protecting it. It's the GM's job to set
>a DC limit.
All DC limits are artificial protections. However, most of the time they
are protecting against the rather devestating effects of shifting points
around in unusual ways. In the case of Hand Attack, it is a protection
against the incredible abusability of the power itself. This should say
something.
>The HA power almost demands a Focus, so the character will not
>have this attack all the time.
I don't think so. You are looking at a power and saying it has only one
SFX. To be blunt, that rather defeats the point of the construction system.
As an example of HA without focus, what about a speedster with a fast (but
not strong, mind you) punch?
>I don't feel the cost is too cheap for this
>attack, but if you do, try increasing it to 4 or 5 pts/DC. You don't need
>anyone's permission to make a house rule (and the various books of the HERO
>system repeatedly encourage you to change anything you don't like.
Uh, this is a forum for discussing roleplaying games. It comes with the
understanding the reader can ultimately do whatever he wants.
>I'll tell you this now. If you make the cost of HA 5 pts/DC, any character
>I was building would put those 5 pts into STR, so I'd get the extra DC and
>increase my secondary stats and be able to lift more.
And you wouldn't be able to convert damage to another type. You wouldn't
be able to do full damage on a move by. Etc. You have figured stats
instead. A trade off. This is why characters built in my world still
have hand attack, even if you wouldn't but it.
>I see two ways for the "throwing the shield" attack to be done. 1) (and my
>personal favourite) an HA, Ranged, 1 Recoverable Charge. 2) (if you want
>it to always come back) Stretching.
Ranged HA is a clear and blatent rules abuse. You're getting 1d6 ranged
attack for 4.5 points per die (EB is 5 pts per die) *and* expecting to
get to add your STR to it? If you take it as a recoverable charge, then
you lose it for the rest of the fight, at the least. If you buy stretching,
then you have pathetically short range, and for some strange reason people
can attack you along the stretch path. I feel EB covers the situation
nicely.
-james
SluT
HAs. We have the real points still set at 3. However the active points
are 5... kinda. Essentially in our games HAs are 3 points unless they are
in a Multipower or variable powerpool... EC.. what have you. Then when you
try to determine how many Dice you can fit in your multipower, you have
to pretend that HAs cost 5... however when you pay for the slot itself
you use the actual number of 3. This prevents the....
OK.. I can throw my baton (multipower with EB) for 6d6...
or by swinging it with my str behind... (HA slot).. I get 10d6...
plus 4d6 for my str... 14d6... (a slight improvement over the EB...
In our game this baton would be a multipower with a 6d6 EB....
and just a 6d6 HA, even though the slot would cost a tad less.
Its kinda wierd... but we have found that the EC/Multi/VPP abuses
of the HA are the most abusive. So this is designed to stop that
SluT
SluT
Ok... about this Hulk debate.. I had to add something....
There is a difference in the scale of Marvel and Champs strengths.
In a way, it is more realistic in marvel since any being able
to lift 100 tons.... would be devestating.
Someone mentioned the article on changing throwing rules in Hero
and that is my basic point. Yes... in Champions having a brick
who can lift 100 tons is commonplace. 12 damage classes is out of
line for only the lowest level games. However, in Marvel people
who can lift 100 tons are among the strongest of Supers...
only a few, Hulk, Hercules types are that strong. And the damage
they can dish out seems rather more than what 60 str has on other
supers and objects. In our game the marvel conversion will give those
with 100 ton lifting in marvel in the 90+ range... (you tell me that
Grond wasnt at least slightly made to be a champions rampageing Hulk)
So if you convert the amount that the Hulk can lift you get his str
to be in the 50 range... it seriously changes the character, and
when converting, the character is the most neccessary thing to keep
the same... not exact numbers of what they can lift.
SluT
SSSSSS l TTTTTTT "What is best in life?
S l T To Crush your enemies, to se them driven before you.
SSSSSS l u u T And to have really great Beer, like Keystone."
S l u u T Nathan Kuncel
SSSSSS l uuuuu T email address: sl...@midway.uchicago.edu
James J Davis
>In <davis.768787060@cwis> da...@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) writes:
>>I hate to say it, but instead of artificially protecting it, why not just
>>fix it? Remember, rules rapists often get thier advantages by saving points
>>and applying the savings to other areas. So, the cost is *still* a problem,
>>no matter what the DC limit is.
>Remember that there's no mechanic which prevents a character from spending
>100 points on STR, yet most GMs limit their PCs to the 50-70 pt max.
>Are you suggesting the whole system be revamped to make high scores
>more costly? Isn't that just as artifical a solution as just declaring
>a cieling?
Doesn't look that way. I'm suggesting you get an appropriate amount of
power for your points, whether you label it 'Hand Attack' or 'Energy
Blast'. High end damage functions have nothing to do with this.
-james
Steven Sharp
>We have the real points still set at 3. However the active points
>are 5... kinda.
This is exactly what I came up with also.
Douglas L. Vandenburgh
In a previous article, da...@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) says:
>Doesn't look that way. I'm suggesting you get an appropriate amount of
>power for your points, whether you label it 'Hand Attack' or 'Energy
>Blast'. High end damage functions have nothing to do with this.
Well, given the inherent limitations of HA, I'd say you're getting 3 pts.
worth of power. I don't think I'm the only person out here who doesn't
see where the huge abuse is occurring that you seem *so* worried about.
If *you* are seeing a lot of abuse of HA, then just keep an eye on HA's
and tell the people who are abusing it "No, you can't do that, it's
abusive..". Every Champs character is subject to GM approval.
- Doug
--
James J Davis
I'd like to insert a reminder about STR in Champions when converting Marvel
Characters. Marvel Comics tends to run a lower 'upper end' than Hero, with
most big bricks in Marvel maxing out at around 60 Champs STR. Why? Marvel
is more or less on a linear scale of STR, while Hero is exponential. Now,
this makes direct conversion of many characters rather silly. You do it by
feel. Grond, being almost literally Hero's Hulk, makes a reasonable point
on what Hulk's Hero STR should be: 90. I don't think it's unfair to put
Hulk there, assuming you are using the same sort of scaling as appears in
the Champions Universe.
As for how much damage he does, a Haymaker will do 27d6, for an average
of 7 BODY through the faceplate of a tank, 11 BODY through the side. I
don't see too much of a problem, offhand.
-james
Trevor Barrie
>Then how is it that I can pick up a rock and do something violent like
>hitting someone with it, doing much more damage than I could do with my
>fists?
According to HERO rules, you can't. A thrown projectile can't do more damage
than your fists, and I don't think there's any rules for hitting somebody in
HTH with an object not built as a weapon (in this case, you probably would
treat it as a HA. It's only in the ranged situation that things change).
Now, if you want to argue that this is a flaw in the HERO throwing rules,
you'll get no argument from me :)...
Trevor Barrie
ludator
>Now, the point being that you can take care of this problem without taking
>from the ultimate flexibility of the Hero System. So, as I stated before,
>why protect a broken mechanic. Why not just fix it? Or just delete it,
>since it's one of the most pointless mechanics in the Hero System, ever
>since 'no figured characteristics' came out, you can just buy limited STR.
Hmmm....
10 STR, No Figured Characteristics, Only for Damage (-1/4): 6 points.
+2d6 HA: 6 points
Seems like it's fairly obvious that they based HA /off/ of STR w/ a
limitation. The problem is not that HA is crocked, it's that STR is
crocked against EB, HKA, etc.
Francis A Uy
>>j...@ghidora.santa-cruz.ca.us (Spam El - Last Spam of Krypton) writes:
>>>the old hulk was GDS (gosh durn strong). true, he would wipe out tanks
>>>at will, but assuming we are even slightly generous, we can give him more
>>>than a 60 strength, probably more like 90+ (grond?). now, looking thru
>>to the Champions Strength chart, you find the Hulk has about 48 STR, more
Comparing the Hero lifting chart to Marvel is inappropriate.
If you want to use Hero to simulate the Marvel universe, your
best bet is simply to scale down the lifting capability.
You need to compare punching capability instead. A full-out
berserk Hulk is the strongest there is -- we're talking 100 Str.
His base Str would be 50ish, with extra Str linked to anger.
>>So we have a 21D6 Haymaker [assuming Str 70]
BTW, which edition of Hero are you talking about? I thought the
Haymaker rule had been changed to Str+2d6 rather than Str*3/2.
Or is it just one of my house rules? I forget sometimes.
-F
.
Alan Barclay
What do you suggest? Maybe each power should list disallowed Advantages
and Limitations and double or half cost ones? This sounds like an added
complication the system doesn't need.
Do you have any suggestions?
Mark Ellis
I've just started reading Hero stuff so I may be missing something but I have a
question about this discussion on throwing things.
In the version I'm reading (4th) it says that strength can't be bought
with the ranged advantage and TK should be used instead.
Assuming that throwing with energy blast(physical does not suite your tastes)
then in a super level game surely someone like Cap America would buy TK to
throw his shield (as the rules state strength can not be used). The correct
limits added to the TK would simulate the shield and it's bouncing
around/returning as well give the same range as a EB but with range penalties.
This seems sensible as the example given in the TK power is for punching at
range. Thus the only difference is rather than using a punch he is hitting with
a weapon at range. This also allows the possiblity of a fast/strong target
catching the shield.
Also my reading of the rules is that as HA is based on strength and does not
work without strength then this again should not be bought with a ranged advantage.
Well have I missed something obvious ?
Also is there a heros/champs mailing list and if so where ?
Thanks Mark
Trevor Barrie
>You need to compare punching capability instead. A full-out
> berserk Hulk is the strongest there is -- we're talking 100 Str.
> His base Str would be 50ish, with extra Str linked to anger.
You're making an unwarranted assumption here. "The strongest there is" is
going to vary greatly from campaign to campaign; it doesn't have to be 100
STR. If you were doing the Marvel U, 70 STR would BE "the strongest there
is".
>BTW, which edition of Hero are you talking about? I thought the
> Haymaker rule had been changed to Str+2d6 rather than Str*3/2.
> Or is it just one of my house rules? I forget sometimes.
Nope. I like that house rule, but it definitely isn't HERO standard.
Trevor Barrie
Trevor Barrie
>
>I'd like to insert a reminder about STR in Champions when converting Marvel
>Characters. Marvel Comics tends to run a lower 'upper end' than Hero, with
>most big bricks in Marvel maxing out at around 60 Champs STR. Why? Marvel
>is more or less on a linear scale of STR, while Hero is exponential. Now,
>this makes direct conversion of many characters rather silly. You do it by
>feel. Grond, being almost literally Hero's Hulk, makes a reasonable point
>on what Hulk's Hero STR should be: 90. I don't think it's unfair to put
>Hulk there, assuming you are using the same sort of scaling as appears in
>the Champions Universe.
I think the Champions scale may have een chosen as a sort of middle ground
between the vastly disparate strength levels of the Marvel and DC Universes;
higher than Marvel, lower than DC.
But it's that "assuming" at the end of your statement that I have to quibble
with. If you were doing the Marvel U, you _wouldn't_ use the same scaling as
in the Champions Universe; you'd use a scaling more appropriate to the
setting you wanted to run.
Trevor Barrie
John Cooper
>>>>>> writes:
>
>Lazarus> Actually, a normal rock isn't a "3d6 HA, usable at range" object.
>Lazarus> The throwing rules say that It's an object with a certain def and
>Lazarus> body that if thrown, will do damage based on the thrower's STR,
>Lazarus> limited by it's ability to be broken.
>
>Then how is it that I can pick up a rock and do something violent like
>hitting someone with it, doing much more damage than I could do with my
>fists?
Well, for one thing, you are talking about Real Life<tm>. The Throwing
Things rules in Champs are not meant to simulate Real Life, they are
meant to simulate, in a simple manner, comic book action. Granted, the
throwing rules were designed with Bricks in mind, but I'd think long
and hard before complicating the throwing rules just to make them more
"realistic."
To enhance the throwing rules, I think two things are needed:
(1) Modified HA rules. STR should add to HA similar to the way
STR adds to HKA.
(2) A formula is needed for converting objects' DEF+BODY to a
HA equivalent.
Tweak to desired temperature and let cool for a dozen playtesting
sessions. :-)
-John
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| John R. Cooper | Internet: j...@vivitech.com, |
| Vivid Technologies, Inc. | jco...@world.std.com |
| Waltham, MA 02154 | AOL: JRCooper (jrco...@aol.com) |
+--------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| "God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends." |
| This may not be true, but it sounds good and is no sillier than any |
| other theology. |
| -- Long's Notes -- |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Francis A Uy
>> berserk Hulk is the strongest there is -- we're talking 100 Str.
>If you were doing the Marvel U, 70 STR would BE "the strongest there is"
The Hulk's full-out punch can damage adamantium, which can
survive anything short of a nuclear blast. I say 100 Str.
But in any case, you still have to rescale the lifting table.
Meanwhile, has everyone noticed the absurd amounts of power
inflation in the Marvel Universe? The average new character
there would cost ~350 points Hero. I'm still amazed at this
Morg fellow -- an ordinary space guy, who can take on Galactus.
What would that cost, 1000 points? More?
-F
.
Andrew Cullum
were two possibilities I came up with:
One is to use the damage chart for being hit by vehicles in the old
Champions II book. This chart listed base damage by the mass of a vehicle,
which you added damage from another chart based on the speed of the vehicle.
Unfortunately, I haven't looked at the chart in a while, so I don't know how
small of a mass the chart starts at. If it starts at 200kg or so, it won't
be all that realistic.
The other idea was to have a thrown object do a damage class equal to its
body, with strength being able to add a number of dc's up to its defense
(PD, presumably). The GM would have to decide whether the object would do
killing or normal damage. I don't have a champions book with me (or even
at home at the moment, a friend is borrowing it), so I can't check how
realistic this would be.
--
------------
Andrew Cullum "Whoo-oa! Don't go on the
el...@watserv.ucr.edu Wild Mouse Ride, its not
acu...@ucrac1.ucr.edu s-a-f-e!"
Nick Fortune
Someone once bounced a brick of my head & given a choice I'd sooner
have been hit. (given another I'd sooner have him him, but that's
neither here nor there)
Anyway, the extra damage probably comes from hard/sharp edges on the
projectile in question, so you could simulate this
by making the damage killing rather than normal.
Then again, if HERO has a flaw it is that it does not
work well scaled to "normals".
On another note:
Has anyone out there tried running a low-level superhero campaign?
I did one set up for 75+75 pts. The heroes were a
security firm specialising in Paranormal problems. No costumes as such
(tee-shirt and jeans for most) and the overall effect was a bit like
Hero Hotline scripted by Frank Miller. God, I mis that campaign.
Nick.
Trevor Barrie
>The Hulk's full-out punch can damage adamantium, which can
> survive anything short of a nuclear blast. I say 100 Str.
> But in any case, you still have to rescale the lifting table.
Secondary adamantium, maybe. But then, I expect secondary adamantium would
peel like wallpaper when hit by a nuclear blast. If the Hulk tried pounding
a wall of true adamantium, he'd destroy the bones of his hand long before he
damaged the wall.
Trevor Barrie
Alan Barclay
>I've just started reading Hero stuff so I may be missing something but I have a
>question about this discussion on throwing things.
>In the version I'm reading (4th) it says that strength can't be bought
>with the ranged advantage and TK should be used instead.
>Assuming that throwing with energy blast(physical does not suite your tastes)
>then in a super level game surely someone like Cap America would buy TK to
>throw his shield (as the rules state strength can not be used). The correct
>limits added to the TK would simulate the shield and it's bouncing
>around/returning as well give the same range as a EB but with range penalties.
You're right, in that at least some of the stuff Cap does with his
shield is TK. I would use a multipower that gives TK and an EB, because
EB is more cost efficient. I'd also look at an Autofire or Area of
Effect slot to simulate Cap's knack of hitting multiple targets.
>This seems sensible as the example given in the TK power is for punching at
>range. Thus the only difference is rather than using a punch he is hitting with
>a weapon at range. This also allows the possiblity of a fast/strong target
>catching the shield.
>Also my reading of the rules is that as HA is based on strength and does not
>work without strength then this again should not be bought with a ranged advantage.
>Well have I missed something obvious ?
Nope, though others have. :>
Robert S. Blasi
>Secondary adamantium, maybe. But then, I expect secondary adamantium would
>peel like wallpaper when hit by a nuclear blast. If the Hulk tried pounding
>a wall of true adamantium, he'd destroy the bones of his hand long before he
>damaged the wall.
I don't know about a direct punch, but in Hulk #300 Doc Samson (or was it
Thor?) hit the Hulk and he flew through the air and slammed headfirst into
the "Hulk" monument that Alicia Richards shaped out of True Adamantium.
He left a nice-sized dent and then proceeded to pick up the monument and
use it as a weapon.
VTY, Rob Blasi
>
--
Robert S. Blasi, II | *Robotics enthusiast
Electrical Engineering Undergrad | *Brother of Alpha Chi Rho
Drexel University (Phila., PA) | *Student journalist
joe di lellio
>In <1994May10.2...@ghidora.santa-cruz.ca.us> j...@ghidora.santa-cruz.ca.us (Spam El - Last Spam of Krypton) writes:
>>> In Hero its possible for a strong man to run right through a wall.
>>>Normal people can batter cars to peices with their bare hands.
>
>>in the old rules (pre 1984?), before vehicles had defense, yup. in a
>>four color (and some others), where humans can haymaker & push at will,
>>without any kind of blow-thru rules, yup. in just about all the games
>>i see nowadays, nope. even those normals with martial arts will end up
>>pupling their arms/feet if they are normal (most of the time; there is
>>always an exception, including to this exception ;]).
>
>What rules do you use for applying damage to people who punch walls?
>
>Alan
half damage of what they do if they make a hole, full damage otherwise.
i consider a hole to be 1-2 BODY, depending on the substance & striking
member. this is very similar to something mentioned in the old golden
age champs book (which i'd look up, except i can't _find_ the damned
thing).
as an example, if a normal person winds up & does the "champions" push
(ie +10 STR), s/he does 5d6 to whatever. if they don't blow thru, they
take 5d6 to whatever. a real normal in my worlds will have 1-3 pd, so
they will probably take 1-2 BODY and 7-9 (1/2 damage multiple for using
hands or feet for striking). i generally get rid of the 1/2 BODY/STUN
multiple when striking with hands & such for things like this, which would
have the person take 2-4 BODY and 15-18 STUN. and, of course, if they take
half their BODY or more, they have to worry about impairment.
martial artists in non-supers games have problems too if they haven't
trained up their PD; a 6d6 kick could stun a MA if they can't do sufficient
damage to what they hit, or haven't done the "stick your hands in this
hot sand here" schtick.
i know, this may not seem like much to some folks, but when you've got
8-10 BODY and CON, it keeps you from attacking bmws. also, i generally
play many npcs as folks who do _not_ want to take damage. PC's (generally)
and some NPCS are just plain weird to most everyone. "why, that man took
_three_ arrow shots, and kept fighting! wow....."
joe
--
Beware, else I'll use my Proper Noun's Adjective Noun of Adverbially Verbing!
Trevor Barrie
>I don't know about a direct punch, but in Hulk #300 Doc Samson (or was it
>Thor?) hit the Hulk and he flew through the air and slammed headfirst into
>the "Hulk" monument that Alicia Richards shaped out of True Adamantium.
>
>He left a nice-sized dent and then proceeded to pick up the monument and
>use it as a weapon.
Are you sure this was TRUE Adamantium? After all, secondary adamantium is
usually referred to as just "adamantium", which makes it hard to tell which
is which. To be honest, secondary adamantium is just a device that the
Marvel editorial staff uses to explain the fact that adamantium's toughness
seems to vary so much from story to story (eg., sometimes the Hulk can dent
it, sometimes it can stand up to a nuclear blast).
Trevor Barrie
ErolB1
(Alan Barclay) writes:
[...]
>You're right, in that at least some of the stuff Cap does with his
>shield is TK. I would use a multipower that gives TK and an EB,
because
>EB is more cost efficient. I'd also look at an Autofire or Area of
>Effect slot to simulate Cap's knack of hitting multiple targets.
Instead of TK, I'd just buy the EB - and remember that Cap has *lots*
of levels. Lots. (The running joke here is that he has levels with
his levels.) These levels can be used to bounce & spread the attack,
thus simulating Cap's knack of hitting multiple low-DCV targets with
a single fling of his shield: Cap flings shield at group of a
half-dozen goons. The shield bounces off the wall four times and off
the goons another six. Total levels used: 16.
(On using levels to spread an attack: Spreading an attack normally
costs damage classes. Levels can be used to raise damage classes (at
least in heroic games). Combining the two allows the use of levels to
spread an attack. And the Hero Games folk on AOL have given their
blessing to this use of levels in superhero games.)
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Alan Barclay
>Anyway, the extra damage probably comes from hard/sharp edges on the
>projectile in question, so you could simulate this
>by making the damage killing rather than normal.
And mass.
>Then again, if HERO has a flaw it is that it does not
>work well scaled to "normals".
I disagree. I find it works wonderfully at the 125 point level
in my Fantasy Hero campaign. There are several rules recommended
for use at this level (mentioned in the HSR). The only additon
I make on a regular basis is converting falling damage from
normal to killing.
Look again.
James J Davis
>>Now, the point being that you can take care of this problem without taking
>>from the ultimate flexibility of the Hero System. So, as I stated before,
>>why protect a broken mechanic. Why not just fix it? Or just delete it,
>>since it's one of the most pointless mechanics in the Hero System, ever
>>since 'no figured characteristics' came out, you can just buy limited STR.
>What do you suggest? Maybe each power should list disallowed Advantages
>and Limitations and double or half cost ones? This sounds like an added
>complication the system doesn't need.
>Do you have any suggestions?
You're right, that would be very complex. I say simply treat HKA as a
normal version of HA, costing 5 pts per die. It's simpler than HA *and*
harder to abuse. If you have a player insisting 'HA is just this, that,
and the other, bought with this advantage and these limitations', tell
them to buy it that way. When they refuse, they virtually prove themselves
the be the rules rapist they are.
-james
James J Davis
>>Doesn't look that way. I'm suggesting you get an appropriate amount of
>>power for your points, whether you label it 'Hand Attack' or 'Energy
>>Blast'. High end damage functions have nothing to do with this.
>Well, given the inherent limitations of HA, I'd say you're getting 3 pts.
>worth of power.
It's only 3 pts of power if you simply ignore the various advantages you
get also. Include them, and it's much more. Things like doing full damage
on move-bys, pushing for 3d6, getting a slightly reduced END cost overall,
being able to convert STR to fit any advantage of the HA, active point abuse,
multiple limitation abuse, foulability abuse, etc. The list goes on and on.
The problem with HA is that it's so crocked, it is abused more often than
used in a manner which makes the cost about right.
And, although I don't think you can accept it, I give you the standard HA
challenge: If you think it's priced right, prove it. 'Build' me your HA.
To date, every such attempt I have witnessed failed becuase it didn't come
in on cost (3 pts per die), it failed to do something HA does (as per HSR),
it made assumptions that were not valid, or any combination of the three.
>I don't think I'm the only person out here who doesn't
>see where the huge abuse is occurring that you seem *so* worried about.
>If *you* are seeing a lot of abuse of HA, then just keep an eye on HA's
>and tell the people who are abusing it "No, you can't do that, it's
>abusive..". Every Champs character is subject to GM approval.
And as I didn't start this thread, I'm obviously not the only one that is
worried about HA either, so your point about you not being alone is just
simply irrelevant. And since I have seen HA casually abused, I chose to
modify HA. Why artifically protect powers *so bad* that they get abused
by accident? Do you like games to not improve? Would you rather play
original D+D? Go ahead! I'm sure it makes a great game with a great GM!
However, that is *not* an arguement against those that want to improve
the game so *average* GMs can do well with them, too.
-james
Douglas L. Vandenburgh
In a previous article, da...@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) says:
>pig...@prairienet.org (Douglas L. Vandenburgh) writes:
>
>>>Doesn't look that way. I'm suggesting you get an appropriate amount of
>>>power for your points, whether you label it 'Hand Attack' or 'Energy
>>>Blast'. High end damage functions have nothing to do with this.
>
>>Well, given the inherent limitations of HA, I'd say you're getting 3 pts.
>>worth of power.
>
>It's only 3 pts of power if you simply ignore the various advantages you
>get also. Include them, and it's much more. Things like doing full damage
>on move-bys, pushing for 3d6, getting a slightly reduced END cost overall,
>being able to convert STR to fit any advantage of the HA, active point abuse,
>multiple limitation abuse, foulability abuse, etc. The list goes on and on.
>The problem with HA is that it's so crocked, it is abused more often than
>used in a manner which makes the cost about right.
And again I say, every character is subject to the GM's approval. If you
see it getting crocked when they hand you the character sheet, say 'This
is crocked. Redo it.'. Trying to adjust the system so you never have
to say no is just too much.
>And as I didn't start this thread, I'm obviously not the only one that is
>worried about HA either, so your point about you not being alone is just
>simply irrelevant. And since I have seen HA casually abused, I chose to
>modify HA. Why artifically protect powers *so bad* that they get abused
>by accident?
The idea that any player abuses something by accident is kind of stretching
it. "Oh, gosh, I took this HA multipower with 14 slots and I had no idea it
would be this powerful." Lots of powers get problematic. Do we increase all
their points? I think the problem can be adequately controlled through GM
approval of characters. If the GM is a spineless wimp who can't say No, the
game will suck no matter how much you cost HA at.
- Doug
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