SPELLESS MAGIC????
Paul Adams
I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
To me this seems a little stupid and stereotypical. Why have
practically all systems (at least the ones I know of) accepted this as
their basic model for how magic works. Still I thought about it and
had some difficulty thinking of an alternative system which could work
without a helluva of a lot of subjective calls by the GM.
SO......
I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
resort to spells?
I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
Paul.
'Spaceman' WD Lee
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Paul Adams wrote:
# SO......
#
# I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
# resort to spells?
#
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't _Duel_ have a spell-free magic
system. IIRC the system involved how well a wizard could affect the
opponent's attributes and the world in general. The effect of any
casting was up to the caster. But I never actually had a copy or played.
Can someone verify this impression?
The Spaceman |God said, "Let there be light." And God
spa...@u.washington.edu |separated the light from the dark. And
Check out the Bill Page! |did two loads of laundry. -Genesis 1:2.5
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Lance Berg
>
> I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>
> I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
>
> Paul.
alternative magic systems based on improvisation or rune magic?
Come up with a few examples of the sort of magic you _are_ looking for
and I'll delve a little farther into the issue with you!
Intriqued
Lance
Bridget Farace
Paul Adams wrote:
>
> I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
> came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
> magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
> being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
> same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
>
> To me this seems a little stupid and stereotypical. Why have
> practically all systems (at least the ones I know of) accepted this as
> their basic model for how magic works. Still I thought about it and
> had some difficulty thinking of an alternative system which could work
> without a helluva of a lot of subjective calls by the GM.
>
> SO......
>
> resort to spells?
It has an elaborate magic system that has no spells.
Of course, there are no levels either, as it's a skill-based system.
You don't have to memorize anything, you don't have to sleep between
castings,
you don't have spell points, it's quite unique! You have to roll to see
if the
magical effect you're trying to do actually works or not. Magic in M:tA
isn't
a sure thing like it is in some systems. In AD&D, if you cast it, it
goes off.
Whether the enemy saves is another issue entirely. In Mage, if you cast
it,
it might work, and it might not, depending on the difficulty of what
you're
trying to do. And depending on the circumstances, it might or might not
have
nasty effects on the caster as well. And then there's always the chance
that the
victim of the spell may be able to counter the effects. This all
offsets the fact
that Mage magic can be extremely powerful. Like teleporting your
enemy's army
directly into the sun. Or looking at them funny and turning them to
dung beetles.
Or even simply making them firmly believe that they're dung beetles.
The more powerful though, the more difficult. :) Trouble is, unlike
spell systems,
where the range and the strength of the effects and duration of the
effects are
all clearly defined in the spells, the Mage system relies directly on
the Storyteller
(the GM) to decide these things, in many cases. More work for him.
As Mages gain in power, the more horrific effects become easier to do.
Even then,
they still have to worry about Paradox. When Mages use magic, they're
basically
changing reality around to suit them. Paradox is Reality's way of
telling the Mage,
"Right back atcha Baybeee!!"
The idea in Mage is to make magic look coincidental, so Reality doesn't
notice it
quite so much when you change it around :)
It would probably be easier, however, to convert your AD&D campaign over
to the
Mage rules than to convert Mage magic over to AD&D.
>
> I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
>
> Paul.
Travis Casey
Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote
> I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
> came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
> magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
> being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
> same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
[a little bit cut]
> I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
> resort to spells?
It's certainly possible; in fact, several game systems already have rules
for it. GURPS' "Improvised Magic" and Marvel Super Heroes original magic
system are both examples.
Many games have rules for improvised magic which could be used for a spell-
less system. There are also many games which have spell design systems which
could be converted to the purpose.
The main reason that most systems have spells is simplicity; it's usually
easier on the GM to have a standardized list of spells which people can use
instead of having people come up with their spells on the fly -- especially
for beginning GMs. I've run campaigns in settings in which no standardized
spells exists, though, so it's definitely workable.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <ca...@cs.fsu.edu>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ System Manager, FSU CS department
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Keith Graham
"Travis Casey" <ca...@cs.fsu.edu> writes:
>Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote
>> I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>> came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>> magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells [...]
I've not used the "Mage" system from White Wolf, but I've been
told that it's totally improvised.
And EarthDawn, which does have a spell system, also has a
number of magical talents that are not spells but have
highly magical effects.
Keith Graham
s...@sadr.com
Dave Nalle
In article <32B0A7...@xtra.co.nz>, Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:
> I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
> came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
> magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
> being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
> same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
>
> To me this seems a little stupid and stereotypical. Why have
> practically all systems (at least the ones I know of) accepted this as
> their basic model for how magic works. Still I thought about it and
> had some difficulty thinking of an alternative system which could work
> without a helluva of a lot of subjective calls by the GM.
>
> SO......
>
> I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
> resort to spells?
It certainly is possible to have such a system. In the 6th edition of
Ysgarth there were some basic guidelines on spell-free magic, and they are
being considerably expanded on in the forthcoming 7th edition.
The idea of 'free-form' magic originated in an old Ragnarok game called
EsperAgents which used such a system for psychic abilities. It was
further developed in By the Gods, and is going to reach its ultimate form
with the new edition of Ysgarth.
It has taken a while to work all of the bugs out. The problem for us with
this sort of system has been that in making it free form we lost a lot of
the limits that you have in a spell system and that required a lot of
careful playtesting to make sure that the system wasn't open to massive
abuse.
The basic concept behind the free-form magic system in Ysgarth is that
characters learn various skills which give them an understanding of both
the basic elements of magic and the forms and effects which can be
expressed with those magical elements. By combining the elements and the
effects they produce a result. If they throw more Mana in they increase
the magnitude of the result they produce.
It's really a pretty simple system...for example.
Blindrado the Pyromancer has a 85% ability with the element of Fire and a
65% ability with the Creation effect skill. He rolls against both
skills. If he makes both rolls he determines the amount of Mana he is
devoting to the effect and defines exactly how the magic will be
manifested -- with these skills it might be a wall of flame, for example.
If he takes more time he can increase his chance of success. The more
Mana he spends the more damage or volume or intensity he can give to the
flame he creates.
It's a very flexible approach to magic, but you do tend to see players
setting up certain combinations of skills and power in advance rather than
doing it on the fly, which makes it resemble a spell-based system much
more.
Dave
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Dan Davenport
Paul Adams wrote:
>
> I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
> came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
> magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
> being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
> same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
>
> To me this seems a little stupid and stereotypical. Why have
> practically all systems (at least the ones I know of) accepted this as
> their basic model for how magic works. Still I thought about it and
> had some difficulty thinking of an alternative system which could work
> without a helluva of a lot of subjective calls by the GM.
>
> SO......
>
> I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
> resort to spells?
>
>
> Paul.
I haven't read much of it, but from what I've seen, _Pendragon's_ magic
system does not involve spells. Instead, mages have general abilities
like Glamour and Divination and they determine what they want to use the
ability for.
Feng Shui uses a similar system.
And, of course, Over the Edge lets you do whatever the Hell you want
with regards to magic and everything else.
John C. Stephens III
In <32B0A7...@xtra.co.nz> Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz>
writes:
>I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
>being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
>same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
>
>To me this seems a little stupid and stereotypical. Why have
>practically all systems (at least the ones I know of) accepted this as
>their basic model for how magic works. Still I thought about it and
>had some difficulty thinking of an alternative system which could work
>without a helluva of a lot of subjective calls by the GM.
>
>SO......
>
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
>
>I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
>
>Paul.
A while back I saw a Wizards RPG, based on the Ralph Bakshi animated
movie. One of the magic powers availible was Invocation, which if
successfuly used "made something happen". The exact effect and it's
usefulness was completely up to the GM. I suppose you could adapt this
to any other magic using RPG, but it places an extra burden on the GM,
and could cause problems if the players don't think they're being
treated fairly. Codifed spells don't have this problem.
John
David Bolack
In article <32B0A7...@xtra.co.nz>, xtr17...@xtra.co.nz says...
>I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
>being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
>same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
One of the Better Games Games.. Rogue Swords of the Empire based magic on
reality contradictions.. Also had a subsystem for "pure" magical Duels..
James Wallis
In article <32B0A7...@xtra.co.nz>, Paul Adams
<xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> writes
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
>
>I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
MAELSTROM, by Alex Scott (Penguin Books, 1984) did exactly that: its
magic system had no spells. The amount of energy needed to cast a spell
and the chance of success was based on how much the magician was trying
to bend or break the laws of probability and/or reality. Therefore one
could make people trip up, drop weapons and so on with little
difficulty, and summoning a lightning bolt was possible but very tricky,
but levitating a few feet was about as hard as transporting a mountain
half-way across the world.
Maelstrom has long been one of my favourite RPGs (my very first
professionally published article was a rules expansion for it), and the
magic system is one of the main reasons I think it's so good.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
(Warhammer is a trademark of Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
Neither Hogshead Publishing nor anyone employed by it will
ever buy anything from any spammed email or Usenet message
bruce...@aol.com
>
>I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
>being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
>same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
Try Ars Magica, and simply use the freeform part of the system without the
standardized spells. Great system for it.
--
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http://www.kenosis.com/ - new work by Steve Stirling & George Effing-
er, Christian/libertarian ideas, and more
You need a Snack Satchel Slapping Stick!
Kenneth Smith
Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> writes:
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
The original edition of Chaosium's Stormbringer game had a system based
solely upon the sorceror's ability to summon various types of demons and
elementals, who could then be coerced into doing the summoner's bidding
(basically accessing the innate powers of the summoned being). I don't
know if they've kept the system intact for the current edition, since I
haven't kept up. But it was pretty cool.
Ken
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Jeff Boes
At some point in time, Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
>being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
>same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
[SNIP]
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
Have you checked out the "improvised magic" rules in GURPS Magic?
(Not the basic game, but the Magic supplement.)
In a nutshell: there are 11 verbs and 14 nouns in the magical
"language", such as:
Communicate Air
Heal Animal
Sense Food
Weaken Light & Darkness
... ...
and you can essentially take "one from Column A, and one from Column
B" to create a spell on the fly.
In addition to improvised magic, there's rules for rune magic,
"aspected" magic (sensitive to time and place and mood), Knacks
(inherent magic), alchemy, ceremonial and group magic, and much more.
Anyone interested in alternative magic rules for FRP really ought to
pick this up, even if you don't care for GURPS as a system.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|Lost my job: Packard Bell shut down Zenith Data
Jeffery Boes |Systems facilities in St. Joe, MI. Hire me!
Database Analyst|Oracle, Forms 3.0, SQL, C, HTML, Perl, Unix, Java;
jb...@qtm.net |SW Michigan/NW Indiana preferred. 616-428-2342
Sean K 'Veggie Boy' Reynolds
Paul Adams (xtr17...@xtra.co.nz) wrote:
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
Try my spell-less generic magic system, available from my web page:
--
Sean K Reynolds a.k.a. Veggie Boy skr...@netcom.com skr...@aol.com
"There's a picture opposite me/Of my primitive ancestry
Which stood on rocky shores and kept the beaches shipwrech free!
Though I respect that a lot/I'd be fired if that were my job
After killing Jason off and countless screaming Argonauts!"
- They Might Be Giants, 'Birdhouse In Your Soul'
D B Martland1
Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
> resort to spells?
> I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
Ars Magica has the best of both worlds (IMO). There are spells in the book,
and GMs and players may invent new spells based on the guidelines provided.
But it is also possible to do spontaneous spells which can be used to
achieve pretty much anything.
The in-game rational for this is that is easier to channel magic via set
patterns (ie spells) than it is to do it on the fly (is improvisation), and
a lot safer too. The mechanics are designed with this concept in mind, and
it works very well in my experience.
I can heartily recommend it.
Dan
John Rudd
> Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
> > resort to spells?
> > I'd be really interested in anyone's ideas.
>
Take a look at "Mage: The Ascention". Spells are viewed sort of a
simple/unimaginative/static versions of a "dynamic reality".. and _real_
magic is working directly with that dynamic reality.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jr...@cygnus.com (ex- kz...@email.sjsu.edu)
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Spammers: I charge you for my time, disk, and bandwidth if you post off-
topic solicitations for money in the groups I read. $500/post/group.
Alex Williams
Er, not to be unduly cynical, but you /do/ realize that the system you
describe reads /exactly/ like a rip off of the ARS MAGICA system save
that the ratings are in percent rather than "points"?
--
Alexander Williams {tha...@alf.dec.com / zan...@photobooks.com}
Prefect of the 8,000,000th Terran Overlord Government Experimental
Strike Legion, Primary Transport TOG "Bellatores Inquieti"
======================================================================
Spiro Harvey
> >
> >I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
> >came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
> >magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
> >being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
> >same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
you have to meet some sort of criteria.
even in my system. I have written a system of magic that does NOT use
spells. kinda. well, no it doesn't. it uses the power of one's mind, the
power of summoned spirits, and alchemy.
there are magicks, which are more like incantations over herbs and stuff.
maybe they are spells by this definition, but I like to think they are
not spells. am I blind or a fool?
Kataman
Another good example of spellless magic is Dark Sword Adventures, a RPG
based on the Dark Sword Trilogy. Here there are not set spells, when a
magic user decides to use magic, he [or she] thinks up the effect, choosing
an area of effect [Fire spells are combat based, water are spells that
affect living organism, air magic moves things.] Using the formulae
included the game moderator determins how much mana is needed to cast the
magic. Works very well, but is specific to the game system, would need work
to make it generic or useful in any other game. Personally I am thinking of
adaptating it to Ars Magica or Witchcraft, both of which are excellent
systems, but have shitty, or no, respectively, rules for spell creation.
--
Kataman
Silver Fox Proto-grove
Montreal Canada
http://www.generation.net/~wildkat
mailto:kat...@inorbit.com
Jeff Boes <jb...@qtm.net> wrote in article
<32d5cc86...@news.qtm.net>...
At some point in time, Paul Adams <xtr17...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>I was musing about the nature of magic in RPG's the other day when I
>came to the conclusion that I didn't know of any RPG's systems whose
>magic systems are not underpinned by the concept of spells - spells
>being defined as a standardised unit of energy which will produce the
>same or similar results when certain conditions are met.
[SNIP]
>I put to anyone: is it possible to have a magic system which does not
>resort to spells?
Have you checked out the "improvised magic" rules in GURPS Magic?
NIC...@news.delphi.com
Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> writes:
>I haven't read much of it, but from what I've seen, _Pendragon's_ magic
>system does not involve spells. Instead, mages have general abilities
>like Glamour and Divination and they determine what they want to use the
>ability for.
I've got to get Pendragon. This sounds similar to something I've been
working on. I'm creating a system with nine pillars of magic and five
levels of mastery within each pillar. It works like this: player tells
ref what he wants his magic to do. Ref decides what if desired magical
effect is possible given his mastery of that pillar and assigns a difficulty
modifier, roll for chance of success. Pillars include: Transformation,
Binding, The Sensible Realm, Elements, Splitting, Anima, Negation, plus
a couple of others I havn't figured out completely. There are also Krasis
effects which draw on two pillars. If a mage wanted to do SHC, he would
combine his knowledge of Life Mastery and Elements. Characters will be
able to reduce their difficulty modifiers by creating their own custom
spells, or learning the characteristic spells of their schools. The best
thing is that no two wizards will be alike. There will be many opportunities
for role playing as competing schools will be locked in an arms race.
I'm planning on a skill-based system with a twist. Access to higher levels
of mastery will come from both applied experience and initiaion rites
given by the masters of the schools. Communing with supernatural guides
may also be a possibility.
Instead of the player saying something like "I cast Spider Climb on Barto,"
he'll say "I instill the power of Binding in Barto so he can climb that
wall." Instead of "I cast Wizard Lock" we have "O power of Binding, seal that
door." Binding is flexible and can be applied in many ways, unlike the
fixed spells of most games.
-N
Thomas Andre Hepsoe
This sounds highly interesting. What system do you use?
In article <59dl2n$3...@news2.delphi.com>, NIC...@news.delphi.com
(NIC...@DELPHI.COM) wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fredrik Sellevold
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
frj
tha...@uxtlaser.alf.dec.com (Alex Williams) wrote:
>Er, not to be unduly cynical, but you /do/ realize that the system you
>describe reads /exactly/ like a rip off of the ARS MAGICA system save
>that the ratings are in percent rather than "points"?
Alex, were you replying to me or to someone else? You broke off from
the main thread and failed to mention who you were replying to.
Side note: I've never actually seen a copy of ARS Magica, though now
that the 4th edition is out I am considering it to see what its about.
Since I've never seen, never mind owned a copy, I can assure you I am
not 'ripping' anyone off, if the comment was intended towards me.
Staff Of The Fantasy Realms Roleplaying Game
_________________________________________
Joseph Teller * Kiralee McCauley * Cynthia Shettle
f...@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/frj
___________________________________________
skar...@sprynet.com
> fre...@stud.ntnu.no (Thomas Andre Hepsoe) writes:
> This sounds highly interesting. What system do you use?
>
> In article <59dl2n$3...@news2.delphi.com>, NIC...@news.delphi.com
> (NIC...@DELPHI.COM) wrote:
> >Dan Davenport <dan...@flash.net> writes:
> >
> >Instead of the player saying something like "I cast Spider Climb on Barto,"
> >he'll say "I instill the power of Binding in Barto so he can climb that
> >wall." Instead of "I cast Wizard Lock" we have "O power of Binding, seal that
> >door." Binding is flexible and can be applied in many ways, unlike the
> >fixed spells of most games.
> >-N
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fredrik Sellevold
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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