Shadowrun 6th

[Zebulin M]

Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?

I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
presumably higher) prices, anyway...

>On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 11:59, Peter Steen Kristiansen < s...@spear.dk> wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>As most of you probably already saw Shadowrun 6th edition has been announced.
>See Dumpshock http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=42156 or
>https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29147.0
>
>Regards
>Sds
>
>______________________________?_________________
>ShadowRN mailing list
>Shad...@firedrake.org
>https://mailman.firedrake.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/shadowrn

--

"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we
can do nothing to change it, look both ways before crossing the road."
- Stephen Hawking

[Ubiquitous]

zebul...@gmail.com wrote:

>Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>
>I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>presumably higher) prices, anyway...

Oh no! We just switched to SR5!

--
Democrats (2016): We must believe the results of the Mueller investigation!
Democrats (2019): We don't believe the results of the Mueller investigation!

[Brett Ritter]

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 12:02 PM Zebulin M < zebul...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>
>I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>presumably higher) prices, anyway...

Whether you like 5th or not, Catalyst honestly hasn't given 5th great support,
nor Anarchy.

I'm curious but not excited about 6th, at least until I hear more.



--
Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
swif...@swiftone.org

[Gurth]

Op 1 mei 2019, om 20:58 heeft Peter Steen Kristiansen <s...@spear.dk> het
volgende geschreven:

>As most of you probably already saw Shadowrun 6th edition has been announced.
See Dumpshock
>http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=42156 or
>https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29147.0

Got an email about that from Catalyst. On the one hand it doesn’t surprise me,
but on the other, it doesn’t interest me either :) At least, not to play — I
might get the main rules PDF just to see the basics of it, but that’ll
probably be it, really.

--
Gu...@xs4all.nl - http://www.understairs.nl | www.plasticwarriors.org
Dat is zoveel beter dan domweg gelukkig zijn
-> Fearless Leader of shadowrn.understairs.nl * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998 <-

[Derek]

On May 1, 2019, at 14:02, Zebulin M < zebul...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>
>I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>presumably higher) prices, anyway...
>
>>On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 11:59, Peter Steen Kristiansen < s...@spear.dk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> As most of you probably already saw Shadowrun 6th edition has been announced. See Dumpshock
>> http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=42156 or
>> https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29147.0
>>
>>Regards
>>Sds

Y’know, I’m inclined to agree on the prices angle. I was far less than pleased to be paying more for PDF only copies of books for 5th than I did my print copies for SR3

[Mad Hamish]

On Wed, 1 May 2019 14:39:51 -0500, Derek <de...@shadowrungamers.com>
wrote:

>On May 1, 2019, at 14:02, Zebulin M < zebul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>>
>>I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>>especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>>presumably higher) prices, anyway...
>>
>>>On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 11:59, Peter Steen Kristiansen < s...@spear.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> As most of you probably already saw Shadowrun 6th edition has been announced. See Dumpshock
>>> http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=42156 or
>>> https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29147.0
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Sds
>
>Y’know, I’m inclined to agree on the prices angle. I was far less than pleased to be paying more for PDF only copies of books for 5th than I did my print copies for SR3

20 years of inflation will do that...

[John Geoffrey]

On 01/05/2019 21:20, Ubiquitous wrote:
> zebul...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>>
>> I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>> especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>> presumably higher) prices, anyway...
>
> Oh no! We just switched to SR5!
>

might be better to wait with the switch until the worst kinks have been
ironed out.I most likely will buy both the English and the German
version. In SR5 the German version was more understandable.

[John Geoffrey]

everything is more expensive. I still haven't bought the D&D 5th ed.
manuals because why would I spend so much money for a game just so it
can look pretty in my shelf.

3rd ed. was something I bought with money from my side job when I was a
student.

looking at my 1st ed. books has prices on them that seem insanely cheap.
I know it wasn't really that cheap back then, but still.

sr3 also was stuff that I bought with side job money, nowadays I really
have to calculate if I can afford a new book or not. most often I can't.
I earn more money now, but I also have to spend more on necessities.

[Ubiquitous]

Yeah, we were previously playing 2nd edition and only switched b/c the new
players would have no clue about managing their pool dice on anything but a
mobile device.

--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.

[Brett Ritter]

zebul...@gmail.com wrote:

>Blatant cash grab? New line editor? Did they just decide 5th wasn’t worth it?
>
>I have to say, I didn’t bother buying all the 5th Ed books, and I’m not
>especially looking forward to buying 6th Ed, either. Not at the current (or
>presumably higher) prices, anyway...

Not to kick off a new round of edition wars, but I've not heard generally good
things about SR6, (from fans of any edition) - at best it's a mixed bag
combined with terrible editing, so even as a matter of being a completionist
I'm waiting for a reporting with errata. (I still recall the insert with
errata for the 2nd Ed GM screen - it had the in-character-style quote "Hey,
better this than a third edition" - FASA )

Has anyone heard otherwise?

[Ubiquitous]

swif...@swiftone.org wrote:

>Not to kick off a new round of edition wars, but I've not heard generally
>good things about SR6, (from fans of any edition) - at best it's a mixed bag
>combined with terrible editing, so even as a matter of being a completionist
>I'm waiting for a reporting with errata. (I still recall the insert with
>errata for the 2nd Ed GM screen - it had the in-character-style quote "Hey,
>better this than a third edition" - FASA )
>
>Has anyone heard otherwise?

I haven't heard anything specific about SR6, but what I've seen seems to be a
further dilution of what makes this ShadowRun, especially WRT spellcasting.


--
Watching Democrats come up with schemes to "catch Trump" is like
watching Wile E. Coyote trying to catch Road Runner.

[Peter Steen Kristiansen]

swif...@swiftone.org wrote:

>Not to kick off a new round of edition wars, but I've not heard generally good
>things about SR6, (from fans of any edition) - at best it's a mixed bag
>combined with terrible editing, so even as a matter of being a completionist
>I'm waiting for a reporting with errata. (I still recall the insert with
>errata for the 2nd Ed GM screen - it had the in-character-style quote "Hey,
>better this than a third edition" - FASA )
>
>Has anyone heard otherwise?

I've read through the pdf and SR6 is not for me - though that is not surprising
as it is a continuation of SR4 and SR5 which weren't for me either.

From my own reading through the book, the errata thread growing and the thread
of oversight stemming from some of the authors having implicit knowledge, such
as the starting Essence value is not stated anywhere in the book, I wouldn't
consider pitching it to my group.

No, stay with SR3 or try out my Savage World / Shadowrun hack is the way for
me.

I do have read statements from quite a few people that they find the book
workable and when the Errata is finalized it will be a good product.

Have fun!
Peter

[Derek]

That’s half of the angry contention against it. There were 10+ pages of errata
released before gencon where the physical copies were unveiled, long before the
PDF was released (still unfixed) and before general public could buy the book in
physical format either.

[VanRossum, Allegra]

de...@shadowrungamers.com wrote:

>That’s half of the angry contention against it. There were 10+ pages of
>errata released before gencon where the physical copies were unveiled,
>long before the PDF was released (still unfixed) and before general public
>could buy the book in physical format either.

The current PDF is fixed, they made most of the changes in-line but had to
put some of the tables in odd locations. I'm hopeful about it if they
continue to fix things.

Up until a few weeks ago, I was on-board with 6E, because I felt it was
better than 5E for a few reasons: 1. The rules were set up in a way that was
much easier to understand. 2. The edge system was fun. 3. It's not 5e. No
limits, a bit more playable out of the CRB without hunting down half a dozen
sourcebooks.

However, then I read the 2e book, which does a lot better job at both of
these... Dice pools are superior to the edge pool in terms of fun, and so far
2e's rules seem more straightforward. I don't mind complex, but
incomprehensible is a problem. If the choice is between 6e and 5e, then 6e is
my choice. If I get to choose from any SR edition, then 2e still takes the
cake. I still need to read through 1e, 3e, and 4eA, though, since someone on
the SR old-school discord I'm on swears by 1e and I've heard good things
about the other editions as well...

[Derek]

Good to hear they’ve semi-patched it...

As for editions, I never played 1st but it’s damage codes mildly confuse me.
2nd I played for a total of 3 runs right after SR3 dropped while my GM at the
time was buying books. I absolutely LOVE SR3, you’re right, dice pools were a
blast. If I could get searchable digital copies of the SR3 books like my
SR4/5 ones, I’d be in heaven and we’d go back to that in a heartbeat. SR4 I
disliked, SR5 I’m mostly ok with because I axed limits and that stupidity
right away. SR6 I haven’t gotten yet, so, no opinion yet.

[Brett Ritter]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 9:47 AM M Weber < web...@polaris.net> wrote:

> what I've seen seems to be a further dilution of what makes this
> ShadowRun, especially WRT spellcasting.

This raises the very interesting (to me, at least) question of what MAKES
Shadowrun?

For me:

- mix of cyber and magic
- the gritiness I associate with SR (I like the SR3 mechanics, wasn't a fan
of the shift to the more "anime" portrayal - that's a terrible description
and I don't want to malign anime, but it was a mismatch to me)
- a level of detail to the character sheet choices

My normal pool of runners might add: no moral requirements, but I dont' see
that as a particular requirement

[Stephen Rodgers]

Since we're sharing...

I'm actually discouraged after seeing SR6, (I had the same reaction to SR5), and
unlike a lot of folks on this list, I consider SR4 to be the high-water mark
(and it's far from perfect, I think it's just demonstrably true that it runs on
the most robust mathematical chassis overall...and I spend a lot of time
thinking about math).

But yeah: fan of SR4; not a fan of SR6. So they're not necessarily correlated.

[Gurth]

Op 25 sep. 2019, om 02:11 heeft Derek <de...@shadowrungamers.com> het
volgende geschreven:

> I absolutely LOVE SR3, you’re right, dice pools were a blast.

That was one of my major complaints about the simplifications of SR4: dice
pools give you, as player, a lot of flexibility that the new system took
away.

> If I could get searchable digital copies of the SR3 books like my SR4/5
> ones, I’d be in heaven and we’d go back to that in a heartbeat.

I’ve got 44 PDF’s of SR3 books (some are doubles) and the official ones at
least are searchable. I think I need to pull the others through Acrobat’s OCR
sometime — I’m kind of surprised I haven’t yet, actually.

[Derek]

I love the fixed TN shift, but seriously miss the various pools. SR4 was too
"forced low level" for me, I don't mind starting low, but, if you make a well
rounded character, you quickly break SR4s rules. But, that was my impression.
I heavily houseruled it, went to 5 and houseruled it even harder (the whole
"marks" thing pissed me off beyond all recognition and becomes insanely
illogical if you're remotely IT savvy.) so, while I am hoping SR6 regains some
of SR3s fun for me with varying pools as wanted by the players, I'm not super
hopeful.

[VanRossum, Allegra]

Oddly enough, I still prefer Anarchy to 5e... There may be a pattern here.

At the very least, Anarchy requires less tweaks to get it to work than 5e.
There's also a 2e/Anarchy fanmade homebrew WIP floating around.

I guess the moral of the story is that anyone can come up with good ideas, but
the execution is the part that needs work. It's true that It's hard to pick out
every typo from a 500 page book, and that using playtester feedback effectively
is an art. Any problems or issues identified by playtesters are indeed problems
99% of the time. However, playtester solutions are usually going to be wrong
(Even more so from other game developers or long time gamers). Advice from
playtesters on methodologies to fix is usually good advice.

However, CGL doesn't really have the excuse of being new to the brand anymore,
either. And I don't blame freelancers who don't get paid more than 3 cents a
word. The RPG industry gets what they pay for.

[Gurth]

Op 25 sep. 2019, om 16:16 heeft Brett Ritter <swif...@swiftone.org> het
volgende geschreven:

> This raises the very interesting (to me, at least) question of what MAKES
> Shadowrun?

Technically, you’d probably have to say the setting as a whole :)

> - mix of cyber and magic

But mainly this. There are other games that do this, but none as well as SR,
I think.

For me, a major part of a game is also its rules system — or lack thereof. I
much prefer AD&D 2nd edition over D&D3 (I never played 4+), for example,
because I find the D&D3 system to be too sterile and not “fantasy” enough.
SR4’s system has similar issues for me: I don’t much like it partly because I
associate the SR1/II/3 game mechanics with the Shadowrun setting, so the
major changes they made for SR4 mean it doesn’t _feel_ like SR to me.

[Max Noel]

In article <CAMb349xoFJ8kDneGYi9rT_7e7YHTy=

+2+VzPW0P0...@mail.gmail.com>, swif...@swiftone.org wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 9:47 AM M Weber < web...@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>> what I've seen seems to be a further dilution of what makes this
>> ShadowRun, especially WRT spellcasting.
>
>This raises the very interesting (to me, at least) question of what MAKES
>Shadowrun?

To me, the "essence" of Shadowrun is this:

- 1980s-flavored cyberpunk, or at least mid-90s post-cyberpunk. The
aesthetics are what matters here. Neon and longcoats, occasional big hair,
the looming specter of ~Virtual Reality~ with quasi-magic computer tech that
makes no sense whatsoever because William Gibson wasn't a software engineer.
When the game originally came out it was edgy and prescient, nowadays it's
charmingly retrofuturistic. The attempts of 4th edition and up to update this
in an attempt to remain current and edgy were, IMO, a mistake (even though it
turns out that the 2018-2019 Internet Of Things craze is just as dumb as the
4th ed Matrix makes it out to be -- who would have thought). The logical
conclusion of those updates are Eclipse Phase, not Shadowrun. Tellingly --
and smartly -- the HBS video games take place in the 2nd-3rd edition era.

- Magic and associated social issues. The way ancient mystical powers clash
with corporate dystopia, and sometimes even *blend* with it (hello,
Aztechnology). I would argue that Lofwyr-headed Saeder-Krupp is the most
Shadowrun thing in all of Shadowrun.

- Possibly the best idea of them all: the fact that it's *our world* that
ended up here. There's a sense of familiarity, and a wealth of existing
culture, that players can readily use to make their characters and the world
feel more real; with just enough uncanny valley where it diverges to make it
unsettling where needed. In a way, they took what was smart and obvious in
urban fantasy games (e.g. World of Darkness) and made it work in a futuristic
cyberpunk setting.

You'll note that I only talked about setting here. There's a certain expected
feeling to the Shadowrun *game mechanics*, but I find them to be general
principles rather than concrete implementations: deadly combat, magic cast
from hit points, non-linear probability curves. For example, the L5R game
system (at least 3rd edition, which is the last I played) feels more like
Shadowrun to me than Shadowrun 4+ does.


-- Max

[VanRossum, Allegra]

stephen....@gmail.com wrote:

>The longer answer is that I have no more trust and faith in the folks
>currently managing the property. Evidence of both their awareness and their
>competency has been on a steady decline for the last 2.5 editions (starting
>partway through SR4, into SR5, and now into SR6). I started to write a much
>longer response, but figured folks didn't want to wade through an analysis of
>game design that reads like a deposition. :)


Isn’t that the entire time CGL’s been running SR? I see a strong correlation
there

I guess that’s what happens when the bulk of your writers jump ship on account
of embezzlement/not being paid, at least back in 4e. I dunno if anyone here
reads Russel Zimmerman’s Patreon, but apparently they didn’t contact a lot of
their usual freelancers for this edition, either. There’s less writers,
developers, and significantly less playtesters credited than in 5e.
(Supposedly, there’s more playtesters than the ones credited, but IMO that’s
kind of worse?)

I always think that “you get what you pay for,” and considering the budget cut
(most likely) and lack of care/playtesting that this edition received, the end
result makes sense. I’m pretty sure the only editing that’s being done on it
is by the unpaid errata team.

If you got a deposition, def send it to me, I’m curious now