Which World Is Best?
Tidrec Nopac
I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
Thanks in advance for the advice.
--
Tidrec Nopac
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
--- Hunter S. Thompson, PhD
Christopher S Macomber
In article <01bb8674$b6e96ce0$bb29e5cd@rbsealey>,
Tidrec Nopac <TID...@aol.com> wrote:
>I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
>away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
>world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
>currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
>Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
None of them really, but that's a different story ;)
--
Night Star
Christopher Macomber
maco...@u.arizona.edu
"Don't take life too seriously...
After all, you'll never get out of it alive."
Hierophant
Tidrec Nopac wrote:
>
> I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
> away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
> world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
> currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
> Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
To bad they kicked Greyhawk, it's the only setting I've ever found it worth purchasing.
--
-Hierophant
The demons rushed forth to fall upon a force many times larger than their own.
Why not? Before them was Graz'zt, invincible and triumphant.
"We are undone..." the right head of Demogorgon yammered,
and the left was too terrified to speak.
-Gary Gygax in Come Endless Darkness
Enigma
Hierophant wrote:
>
> Tidrec Nopac wrote:
> >
> > I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
> > away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
> > world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
> > currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
> > Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
I have played most of these games, Planescape is a good setting if you like
traveling the planes of existance, and you LIKE high level campiagns (most of the
monsters will so-to say (KIck the asses of most players). Forgotten realms is a very
nice setting, it goes into great detail of the whole realm PLUS there are so many
expansions out for forgotten realms there is no way you or yourplayer could get bored. I
Dm's forgotten realms (but i got sick of the elves) so i have my players go on a suicde
mission and try to stop the end of the world. when the world was distroyed i took them
into dragonlance. Very nice setting too. BUT if you want dragonlance. WAIT till the
revised editions comes out....they are working on the cont. of "dragons of summer flame"
(the end of the world)
Hope this helps..
--
Enigma, The Master Of Mystery
"We are all travelers lost, Our tickets arranged at a cost. Unknown but beyond our
means, this odd itinerary of scenes. -Enigmatic, Strange, and unreal - leaves us unsure
of how to feel. No postmortem journey is rife, holding more mystery than life" From the
Book Of Counted Sorrows
cow...@mail.telis.org
For long term campaigns, Forgotten Relms is your best bet. It has
connections to: Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and PlaneScape. You can take
your PC to these places at higher levels. Thats what I do. But
Ravenloft makes good for 1 time adventures, but in the long run it is a
poor choice.
You might consider Dragonlance 5th age. Comming Soon.
NIGHTSHADOW
Mark Nockleby
I think my world is the best.
-mark.
--
"Maybe we are the kind of people who need to have what we don't want."
-- Steven Jesse Bernstein.
For PGP key, finger n...@noether.ucsc.edu.
Yoav Yerushalmi
That really depends on what kind of campaign
you plan on running.
(btw.. you left out Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Dragonlance,
and a few others -- was this on purpose? or did you
just not bother reading about them?)
Forgotten Realms is big and expensive. If you plan on doing
that, pick a small area (probably Waterdeep or Shadowdale
or one of those) and stick to that for a while. There are
far too many detailed areas in that world for you to
purchase the entire thing. However, it is fairly
well detailed, with just about anything you're looking
for in a classical fantasy setting.
Planescape is nothing like that. I'm personally very fond
of Planescape, mostly because it's nothing like what
one expects. If the DM is good (and yes, Planescape and
Ravenloft both require a good DM to make the world work)
you can have plenty of fun. However, it is not the
sword+sorcery, dragons etc. world that most people want
from a fantasy game.
Mystara is the old D&D world mapped to AD&D. I haven't
seen or heard much about it, so I won't comment much,
though from the TSR schedules, it does seem like the
world isn't going to have much more published.
Red steel is not that well detailed, but that also leaves a
lot for the DM to make up. IT is my understanding that
you can also take this world and map it into your
'current' world. Though since you have none, that's not
a major concern.
Of the above four, I would suggest starting with FR, and then,
if your characters really feel like doing some plane-hopping,
or you want to throw a major challenge at them later, you
can move onto Planescape.
-----
there are also other worlds I would suggest you consider:
Ravenloft -- several settings, Gothic horror and the like.
Get players that like this sort of thing, and you'll have
lots of fun. If you or your players don't like this kind
of thing.. avoid it.
Birthright -- Large scale battles between warring factions,
grandiose, and high in magic. I haven't tried it, but
I've heard good reviews. Don't expect players to run
around into dungeons and defeat dragons all day, but do exepct
more role-playing requirements for the game to be
fun. Also expect to have to learn new rules specific to
this world.
Dark Sun -- Psionics is right now a mess. The world has
appealing qualities, but it relies on psionics heavily.
They just revamped the entire system to fix a lot of complaints,
but so far, haven't given out much more than new rules.
Until they put out an updated Psionics handbook, Will+Way,
and other related sources, I would avoid it.
Dragonlance -- initially, it looked like the next world to
go away. If you are considering FR heavily, you might want to
also look at this world, which is also fairly
well detailed, has many books you can read, and is likely to
cost you less in the long run.
problems: they're launching a fifth age thing, and nobody seems
to know whether they will like it or not. I would personally
reccomend FR over it, but some of my friends would disagree.
there are yet others, like Spelljammer, Lankhmar, Greyhawk, and
the like, most of which have little or no material left around to
use, so I would suggest avoiding them.
In all honesty, decide what kind of world you want to run,
and then the rest is all up to the quality of your DM'ing.
All worlds will work if you are a good DM with good players,
and will fail if you aren't.
P.S., if you do go with FR, I suggest getting the following stuff
(the higher up on the list, the more you should get it.. so stop
buying when you've hit your budget):
Players Handbook
DMG
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Monstrous Manual
Skills and Powers (Player's Option)
City of Splendours (detailing Waterdeep and surrounding areas)
then, if you still have more to spend (I wouldn't) and want
to buy a large module/dungeon, try one of
Ruins of Undermountain (I or II).
Which is basically a large dungeon-crawl. Easy to DM, usually
fun to play. If you want something more role-playing
intensive, and tougher on the DM, I would suggest making something
up yourself. The Waterdeep box set and the FR campaign setting
will have more than enough things to give you ideas and to
tailor your campaign best for your players.
Anyway, I've typed far too much. Pick a world, and play it...
--
------------------------------------------------------------
| Yoav Yerushalmi | My opinions are mine.. |
| M.I.T student at large | (I hope.. don't sue) |
| http://www.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/yoav/html/homepage.html |
------------------------------------------------------------
MadGamer
Yoav Yerushalmi <yo...@mit.edu> wrote:
Hi there. You seem to know quite a bit about the AD&D worlds.
The only world I've ever played or DM'd is Ravenloft. My whole group
is farily inexperienced and have yet to totally get into the actuall
Gothic Horror part of this world.
Anyways, I was wondering if you could expand a bit on your thoughts of
Ravenloft compared to the other worlds.
Thanks.
-end transmission-
<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
MadGamer | "You're gonna die for that."
(a.k.a. Geoff Hague) <>
gha...@direct.ca | -Duke Nukem
<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
Cymbelline
>> > I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
>> > away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new
TSR
>> > world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
>> > currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
>> > Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
What worlds do I prefer?
Well, the ones that I have either played or DMed in are Greyhawk, Mystara,
Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Ravenloft. As for the other worlds, I am
not at liberty to give expert opinions, but I will give my view on what I
know.
GREYHAWK - A sentimental favourite, for it is the world I have spent the most
time with/in. A fairly standard AD&D world, material now out of print, and
a world which the DM can pretty much do what he wishes to with.
BIRTHRIGHT - I am yet to DM or play in this game, but I have purchased much
of the material for it, and am highly impressed with it. For years Greyhawk
used to be my favourite world, but now Birthright is. A gritty, dark
medieval feel to it, with kings and chivalry playing a big part. Magic is
not as prevalent as in other TSR worlds.
FORGOTTEN REALMS - A highly magical world, with powerful mages, and a product
line stretching back ten years and hundreds of products. Too magic-rich for
my tastes.
DARK SUN - The world of psionics. Brutal, very different, but if you are
after a typical fantasy setting, this is not for you.
RAVENLOFT - The world of the undead. If traversing through ghost-filled
graveyards and vampie-run towns is your preferences, then this is for you. A
world I am fond of, but more as something to visit from time to time.
MYSTARA - The oldest world of them all - very typical AD&D flavour (unless,
of course, the DM changes this), well-created history, and the chance to do
pretty much whatever you wish to do. The inside of the world is hollow.
DRAGONLANCE - Epic fantasy, this one, with dragons, knights, sorcerers, etc.
Each class plays a certain part in this world, and it has one of the best
atmospheres of all the worlds. Very distinctive.
RED STEEL (SAVAGE COAST) - Officially this is part of the Mystara world, but
is easily adaptable to any world. As something to start with, I DO recommend
this, for it has enough rules and material in the basic Boxed Set to get any
group started, before deciding whether or not they wish to continue with more
products. Good atmosphere, as well, this world.
AL-QADIM - Out of print Arabian-style world, officially part of the FR world.
SPELLJAMMER - Out of print campaign setting that links most TSR worlds to
other, via the use of flying ships. Some of the material printed for this
game is worth getting hold of.
PLANESCAPE - This is possibly what TSR wished to do with Spelljammer in the
firts place, who knows? A setting that uses the City of Doors, Sigil, as its
focal point, and is easy to access other worlds via the use of 'portals'. A
very distinctive flavour, the emphasis on role-playing and in-depth character
creation. Hunting dragons and saving maidens is not a common occurence in
this campaign. Highly recommended!
Regards,
Cymbelline.
Christen Yum Yuen
Tidrec Nopac (TID...@aol.com) wrote:
: I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
: away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
: world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
: currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
: Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
Well, it kind of depends on what you're style is. I've either
played or DMed in several campaign worlds, and am most comfortable with
Ravenloft. Since that's not one of your listed choices, here's what I
think about the rest.
*Planescape*
I DM'ed this for all of two weeks before deciding to suck up all
the PCs into Ravenloft and killing them off in the most silliest and
cliched campaign ever (in which Strahd revealed himself as one of the PC's
father, another PC had an evil clone named "Bob", and the Lady of Pain was
revealed to be the reincarnation of Tatyana and madly in love with
Strahd's PC son... truly a disasterous end to a disasterous campaign).
Oh, sorry, I'm digressing...
The Planescape setting has some of the most lavish accessories out
there, with colorful artwork (which gives me a headache after a while) and
a definite attitude. If you're into a more abstract campaign, this may be
for you. I, quite frankly, got tired of using the word "berk" and having
all the PCs fight over what to do due to conflicting factional
allegiences, and gave up before even giving the setting much of a chance.
Certainly, if you want to play Planescape right, you can't play it like
an Outer Planes version of the Forgotten Realms. The modules are very
well thought out.
*Red Steel*
This is Savage Coast, no? Well, if it's free, you can't go wrong.
You might as well download it and see if you like it; I did, and it seems
to be a pretty solid setting. New races, new gimmicks (fencing,
legacies, etc.), and a new frontier. Worth a shot (anything free is).
*Forgotten Realms*
Well, ya' either like the Realms or you hate it. It offers a
large amount of diversity, but has no real gimmick which separates it from
a generic campaign. The boxed sets usually have one or two goodies which
make it seem more of a value than an equally priced Ravenloft box (more
maps usually). Unfortunately, I don't find the world to be all that
interesting. And there's far too many high level NPCs running around in
the world for my taste. Accessories are either good (Faiths and Avatars),
bland but decent (the North), or downright awful (the Moonsea). Not my
cup of tea.
*Mystara*
Never played it. I think Red Steel/Savage Coast is supposed to be
set in Mystara (similar to Al Qadim being set in FR... you probably won't
need one to play the other).
_______________________________________________________________________
Chris Yuen | "Shedding off one more layer of skin.
Lab Assistant | Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within."
TGRC, UC Davis | - Bob, "Jokerman"
_______________________________________________________________________
Joe Feyas
Mark Nockleby wrote:
>
> I think my world is the best.
>
> -mark.
Pscion
Enigma <chris.g...@the-spa.com> wrote:
>Hierophant wrote:
>> Tidrec Nopac wrote:
>> > I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
>> > away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
>> > world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
>> > currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
>> > Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
>
>traveling the planes of existance, and you LIKE high level campiagns (most of the
>monsters will so-to say (KIck the asses of most players). Forgotten realms is a very
>nice setting, it goes into great detail of the whole realm PLUS there are so many
>expansions out for forgotten realms there is no way you or yourplayer could get bored. I
>Dm's forgotten realms (but i got sick of the elves) so i have my players go on a suicde
>mission and try to stop the end of the world. when the world was distroyed i took them
>into dragonlance. Very nice setting too. BUT if you want dragonlance. WAIT till the
>revised editions comes out....they are working on the cont. of "dragons of summer flame"
>(the end of the world)
I agree. Planescape is very good, and unique. Besides, given
Planescape's
portals, you can dump the PCs through a portal at nearly any time to
explore another campaign world for a time (such as Realms or DLance...
or Magincia...)
;) Yes, that was a shameless plug...
~~~Pscion~~~
Campaign World Magincia at
http://www.ldd.net/scribers/pscion/magincia.htm
..the psychic wind blows...
Tom Grant
As others have said, it really depends on what you want:
FORGOTTEN REALMS--A good generic setting, full of familiar elements. For
beginning players, I think that this is the best place to start. The new
material is not quite as great as the old stuff (with the exception of
Faiths and Avatars), but it's still good. My major complaint is that the
designers have blown up all the interesting lairs of evil folks (Hellgate
Keep, Zhentil Keep), but hey, you can always ignore whatever elements of
the official setting don't work for you. (However, TSR did come out with
an interesting Zhentil Keep supplement.) This is probably the easiest
setting to run. If you get bored with it, you can always have the
characters wander into a Planescape campaign, or get kidnapped into
Ravenloft.
PLANESCAPE--Although many have said that it's really for high level
characters, Planescape seems just as good for lower-level ones as well. Do
more than fight every demon you meet--talk to them, deal with them, or run
from them, as appropriate. If you're interested in maximum magic and other
bizarreness, this is the setting for you.
RAVENLOFT--Harder to run as a campaign, Ravenloft is nonetheless good for
a mini-campaign, if you want to run some established characters through a
few Ravenloft adventures. The mix of gothic horror and traditional fantasy
elements can work, but only if the GM is careful. There are a few very
memorable adventures in this setting and some very cool game mechanics.
DARK SUN--If you want originality in your fantasy setting, this is it.
Sorcerors have sucked the life force out of the world, leaving most of it
a barely habitable desert. There is NOTHING in this world that matches a
traditional AD&D setting, which is one of the chief attractions for me. If
you aren't careful, however, your players can get way too powerful in this
setting. If you are careful, however, Dark Sun can be one of the most
challenging and exciting settings around.
BIRTHRIGHT--This, too, is a real diversion from the normal AD&D campaign.
Instead of playing a party of roving adventurers, you play the monarch of
a kingdom, or members of the court. Half the game is managing the kingdom,
and the other half is playing adventures related to the challenges of
rulership. As you might expect, the games are very political, while random
magical and monstrous story points are downplayed. I like the idea behind
this setting a lot!
LANKHMAR--If you haven't read Fritz Leiber's seminal fantasy series, do so
now. It's one of the best set of fantasy stories ever, and it's had a
subtle influence on the genre (where do you think AD&D got the model for
thieves, except from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser?). I'm not convinced that
the AD&D system works well in this world, but to be honest, I haven't
tried. The just-released revision of this campaign setting is designed for
new players, and has some interesting aids for GMs (game nuggets that give
you instant adventures).
> "Tidrec Nopac" <TID...@aol.com> wrote in article
<01bb8674$b6e96ce0$bb29e5cd@rbsealey>...
> I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
> away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new
TSR
> world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
> currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
> Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
>
Joshua Jarvis
Joe Feyas wrote:
>
> Mark Nockleby wrote:
> >
> > I think my world is the best.
On the newsgroups it seems that everyone is off in their own little world.
But seriously did you make a gameworld? what is it like?
The Beast
Tidrec Nopac wrote:
>
> I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
> away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
> world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
> currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
> Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
>
> Thanks in advance for the advice.
One world not mentioned so far that is only a one-shot deal it seems (a pity)
is the Council of Wyrms setting. It can be easily mapped to an ancient setting
of any of the other worlds such as when Elves and Giants had huge empires sprawling
across continents or the Human Lands being the ancient Suloise and Baklunish Empires.
The characters are dragons and they each have a kindred demi-human (Elf, Gnome or
Dwarf) that serves as their rider or henchman. A very cool feel to the game world,
a feeling of primaeval ancient lands abounding with powerful and strange creatures.
--
Michael "The Beast" Bastian
Image Understanding Laboratory
Brigham Young University
Web: http://iul.cs.byu.edu/bastian/mike.html
Joe Feyas
The Beast wrote:
>
> Tidrec Nopac wrote:
> >
> > I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
> > away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
> > world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
> > currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
> > Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the advice.
>
> One world not mentioned so far that is only a one-shot deal it seems (a pity)
Speaking of worlds not mentioned...
I know the original poster asked for "currently supported worlds" but I am curious
about non-TSR worlds. One in particular that I have been curious about for a long
time is Harn. It looks very detailed, any comments from DMs who've used this setting?
On another note Middle Earth campaign setting seems very good and very detailed. Even
thought it is not designed for AD&D I don't see a problem converting it. (Actually I
am of the believe the campaign source books should always be generic rather than game
specific) I haven't DMed it but was a player in a campaign that was set in the 5th
Age of Middle Earth - it was great. Very _epic_ flavor to this world...
Joe
DAn
For my money, Birthright is the best world, followed by
Ravenloft. DAn
joseph oberlander
> On the newsgroups it seems that everyone is off in their own little world.
> But seriously did you make a gameworld? what is it like?
I made one, with some help from a couple of friends(they did the goundwork
and maps and such years ago and shelved it, and I completed it(about 50%
of the work was done by me))
It is very much like Middle Earth(was put together before Greyhawk was
even made) and Greyhawk. It has different dieties, planets, gateways,
demons, flora and fauna, special magical properties and such. - VERY
complete, down to timelines and weather patterns and such.
It is high technology, though - somewhat comparable to Rennaissance Era,
so it moves fairly fast(there is even a little bit of SpellJammer - type
of play, completely homemade)
I set it up to be playable with either first or second edition D&D and it
is a favorite of mine due to its completeness(imagine making and leshing
out a planet with a 20K mile circumference).
I tend to like Greyhawk due to its classic "feel". This is a good sarting
point to run a game in as it is the oldest and most complete world T$R has
made.
I suggest you take whatever system you like and modify it. My curent
magic system works very much like first edition, but with all the included
spells from second edition as well(and a slew we made for the world).
Races and classes have different priorities in my world as well as
different abilities and such.
JUERGEN HUBERT
Joe Feyas writes:
> On another note Middle Earth campaign setting seems very good and very
>detailed. Even
> thought it is not designed for AD&D I don't see a problem converting it.
>(Actually I
> am of the believe the campaign source books should always be generic rather
>than game
> specific) I haven't DMed it but was a player in a campaign that was set in
>the 5th
> Age of Middle Earth - it was great. Very _epic_ flavor to this world...
The _5th_ age of Middle Earth? Wow. How many centuries after 'Lord of the Rings'
did this campaign start?
--
Juergen Hubert
HUB...@gawein.physik.uni-erlangen.de
"Sometimes I do stupid stuff, and I don't even know why...
..as if my body were controlled by some demented, sadistic puppet-master..."
-- Bernard Bernoulli
"Well, we all feel that way sometimes."
-- Weird Ed Edison
in: "Day of the Tentacle"
Joe Feyas
JUERGEN HUBERT wrote:
>
> Joe Feyas writes:
>
> > On another note Middle Earth campaign setting seems very good and very
> >detailed. Even
> > thought it is not designed for AD&D I don't see a problem converting it.
> >(Actually I
> > am of the believe the campaign source books should always be generic rather
> >than game
> > specific) I haven't DMed it but was a player in a campaign that was set in
> >the 5th
> > Age of Middle Earth - it was great. Very _epic_ flavor to this world...
>
> The _5th_ age of Middle Earth? Wow. How many centuries after 'Lord of the Rings'
> did this campaign start?
Something like 400 to 500 years. It was very epic, including the return
of the Nagul to power. There was a decline in humans and an increase in
all non-human populations.
This is all from memory the campaign was about 8 years ago...
Joe
Admiral
Of all the worlds I've used (published stuff), I prefer Shadow World the
best. It was created for Table ... er ... Rolemaster and Fantasy Hero, but
it can be easily adapted.
---
*
* *
* * Admiral ... A job is nice but it interferes with my life.
Douglas E. Berry
In article <01bb8674$b6e96ce0$bb29e5cd@rbsealey>,
"Tidrec Nopac" <TID...@aol.com> wrote:
>I've been on gaming "hiatus" for about a year and a half. Having given
>away my extensive Realms collection, I'm considering purchasing a new TSR
>world to DM. So, learned colleagues, I'd like to find out which of the
>currently supported worlds you consider to be the best: Planescape, Red
>Steel, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara.
Glorantha or Harn.
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dbe...@hooked.net |
| Professional Driver - Traveller Guru |
| Third Shift Kramer Krony |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm |
|********************************************|
| "A mountain is something you don't want |
| to fuck with" -Frank Zappa |
+--------------------------------------------+
Magnus Lycka
> On the newsgroups it seems that everyone is off in their own little
> world. But seriously did you make a gameworld? what is it like?
perhaps ten years ago. What could I do? I had to realize that I
could never do anything like that.
It's still my favourite world, without any doubt. It's more realistic
and consistent than any other fantasy product that I have ever seen
before or after. There are just two disadvantages in my opinion.
1. All other stuff, from other companies, that I found after Harn
seems so bad. It sounds like a gross overstatement, but it is true.
I've never seen any other material where I didn't have this "Don't
look behinf that curtain, Dorothy" feeling. Sure, there are little
mistakes here and there in the vast descriptions of Harn, but it's
more complete and consistent than any other fantasy setting I've
seen.I guess I'm rather pedantic with logic and consistency though.
2. Columbia Games are really slow at releasing stuff. Right now they
have just released the second edition of HarnMaster though. (They
sold the first copies at GenCon and after what I heard, people
really like it.) There also seems to be problems getting Harn
stuff in games shops in USA. It seems much better in the shops here
in Sweden for some strange reason. Columbia Games sell on mail
order though. You can find them at <http://www.columbiagames.com>
Some modules are out of stock, but you can get photo copies from
CG. Besides, I hope good HarnMaster 2 sales will make them reprint
some old modules.
For anybody looking for a new FRP world, I would reccomend buying
HarnWorld, and some kingdom module. To describe it, Harn is a lot
like medieval Great Britain, but still very different. There are
elves, dwarves, orcs and other 'friends', but compared to the average
D&D setting it's much more 'normal'. Things manage to make sense.
The elder races, society, magic etc. It is all woven together in a
more believable way than I've seen before. You can really just compare
Robin Crossby's achievements with Tolkien's.
If you just want to complement your own world (or someone elses) with
stuff, I could recommend Cities of Harn. I think it's out of stock
now, but it might be in some shops, and I think it's scheduled for
reprint soon.
It's very much like a drug actually. Don't buy it if you don't want
to get addicted. There are long descriptions of history, dating back
from long before the civilizations of man. There are maps showing
ocean currents, prevailing winds, tectonics, language families,
cultures and trade for the whole continent. The illustrations by Eric
Hotz are great. You will learn things from royal intrigue to the name,
skill level and likings of each merchant, smith, inn keeper etc in all
major city.
The strength of Harn is the world descriptions. 100 bushels of Rye is
in my opinion a great adventure, and the other ones they have made are
good too, but they are fairly few. The world descriptions are very
inspiring though. There are thousands of hints for adventures in the
material. Three regions are developed: Harn, Ivinia (vikingish lands in
the north) and Shorkyne (east of Harn and south of Ivinia). There is
no additional material on Shorkyne yet though, and just one kingdom
module for Ivinia. The second Ivinain kingdom module should be in print
within a year from now though.
For Harn there are nine kingdom modules (I think). There are also
modules describing cities and castles as well as modules on sea travel
and religions.
If you are interested in the religions of Harn, you can take a look
at the Harn Religion Team home page at:
<http://www.tripnet.se/home/mly/hrt/hrt.htm>
A lot about Harn can also be found at HarnPage:
<http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~jamie/harn/HarnPage.html>
At last I have to make a confession:
I'm very biased, since I've been addicted to Harn for more
than a decade. I'm in no way affiliated with Columbia Games
though.
Magnus
P.S. Their FRP rules HarnMaster are very good too, and can also be
recommended. Some thought the very realistic, graphic and hit point
less combat system was to complicated, but that should have been fixed
with the new edition. This is really another subject though.
David Caudill
IMHO Harn IS the BEST RPG world & system I have ever come across! I
have played (and enjoyed) other systems, but I always come back to
Harn. I like the detailed combat system (still simple compared to a
lot of systems) and it is realistic. The "boring" creatures are not at
all boring. There is the Aklash who regerates and whos breath can
disble the hartiest of warriors. There is the Vlasta - the Eater of
Eyes. Like the name says, they enjoy attacking the eyes. And, there is
a logical reason for the monsters! (Novel concept!) There is a god
(called Ilvir) dwelling on Harn who enjoyes experimenting with
different types of life-forms. He constructs all sorts of monsters for
his own amusement. This means that, should you need a new monster, you
have a ready-made excuse as to why it exists, and why people may have
never seen its like before. Instead of most worlds where you just say,
"Cuz I said so."
This is not a flame either. I just wanted to point out some of my
reasons for prefering the Harn world. It is *definately* worth a
look-see!
Dave Brohman wrote:
>
> Magnus Lycka (magnus...@gbg.frontec.se) wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > It's still my favourite world, without any doubt. It's more realistic
> > and consistent than any other fantasy product that I have ever seen
> > before or after. There are just two disadvantages in my opinion.
>
> Actually, you forgot problem number three: Harn bites.
>
> <UNPAID ADD FOR HARN SNIPPED>
>
> There is very little worthwile in Harn IMNSHO. The equipment lists are
> excellent and the idea of graphical representations of injuries (instead
> of abstract hit points) is a good one, but on the whole, the system is not
> worth it. The creatures are boring, the system is cumbersome and the book
> itself looks very unprofessional.
>
> In short, unless your are an avid games collector who wants a rare piece
> for your collection, avoid Harn.
>
> PS - This is not a flame of the original post, it is simply an alternative
> opinion.
Nameless
cow...@mail.telis.org wrote:
>NIGHTSHADOW
What about this world ???
You can pay with VISA after all... ;)
Nameless
--
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to hide
the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off...
Dave Brohman
Magnus Lycka (magnus...@gbg.frontec.se) wrote:
<SNIP>
> It's still my favourite world, without any doubt. It's more realistic
> and consistent than any other fantasy product that I have ever seen
> before or after. There are just two disadvantages in my opinion.
Actually, you forgot problem number three: Harn bites.
<UNPAID ADD FOR HARN SNIPPED>
There is very little worthwile in Harn IMNSHO. The equipment lists are
excellent and the idea of graphical representations of injuries (instead
of abstract hit points) is a good one, but on the whole, the system is not
worth it. The creatures are boring, the system is cumbersome and the book
itself looks very unprofessional.
In short, unless your are an avid games collector who wants a rare piece
for your collection, avoid Harn.
PS - This is not a flame of the original post, it is simply an alternative
opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Brohman E-Mail : dbro...@chat.carleton.ca
Carleton University
Featuring Alexi Sayle as the Balowski Family.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
JL
<Two posts snipped>
I cast my vote FOR Harn here.
I think it is one of the BEST gaming worlds around. The level of
detail is awe-inspiring and nothing I've ever seen comes close!
(Of course, I'm a writer, so I'm a sucker for details)
The actual RPG system itself--specifically combat--is rather
cumbersome (but nowhere near as complicated as Rolemaster). Of
course, I have the first edition of it, so it may have changed.
It was, IMO, very realistic however.
Columbia Games is a small company with only a mediocre number of
sales, so don't expect the high-quality $400 books that TSR produces
nowadays. Expect the quality to be about the same as TSR's when
things first started coming out for D&D.
Heck, I HAVE the first boxed set they ever printed, and you want to
talk about unprofessional...
But, who cares, it was the ideas IN the box that counted, not it's
presentation!!
-Oarim
**********************
Fate leads
the willing,
the unwilling--
she drags.
Dave Weinstein
Harnmaster I is my preference for a fantasy RPG, I really like the way
the rules work, and haven't found them clunky at all.
I took a rather cursory look at Harnmaster II at GenCon, and decided to
stick with Harnmaster I, at least for the forseable future.
--Dave
--
Dave Weinstein olo...@kesmai.com
Kesmai Corporation http://www.kesmai.com
Recommended: Brian McNeill - Back o' the North Wind, Ed Miller - Scottish Voice
Disclaimo, Disclaimas, Disclaimat
David Caudill
Dave Weinstein wrote:
>
> Harnmaster I is my preference for a fantasy RPG, I really like the way
> the rules work, and haven't found them clunky at all.
>
> I took a rather cursory look at Harnmaster II at GenCon, and decided to
> stick with Harnmaster I, at least for the forseable future.
If you are not a member of the Harn Mailing List, then you may not
know this.... N. Robin Crosby is coming out with Harnmaster Gold
sometime in the next few months. It is his prefered version of
Harnmaster II. It will be much more like HM I than Columbia Games'
version.
*****************************************************************
* David Caudill ---- Pan...@primenet.com *
*F.A.N.G. - Ferret Association of Neverending Glee Shelter/Club *
* Vice President and Co-Founder *
* Ste 778 3929 Overland *
* Boise, Idaho 83705 *
*****************************************************************
Famous Last Words in Role Playing Games's: #072
"Don't be silly. If this was really the ship's "Self-Destruct
Button", do you think they'd leave it lying around where anyone could
press it?"
Mr. Mad
Nameless wrote:
>
> What about this world ???
>
> You can pay with VISA after all... ;)
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!
Why didn't I see that one coming?
(Sorry for the me too!)
--
_
/ \//\ Mr. Mad http://sac.uky.edu/~mlmorr0 mailto:mlm...@pop.uky.edu
\ ////
\M / "The Poor have little, Beggers none, the Rich too much, enough not one."
\/ -Benjamin Franklin
Don Mappin
(I'm also a writer and also a sucker for detail so with that in mind...)
I am a HUGE RoleMaster fan and love the system for the flexibility it
gives myself and other players/GMs. Another friend was familiar and quite
addicted to Harn, a world he could say no evil about!
He eventually convinced me to play in a hybrid RoleMaster/Harn campaign,
using full RoleMaster rules but set in the Harn world (the official
RoleMaster world at the time, Shadow World, although good, was weak in
detail).
What a spectacular marriage! Harn is quite wonderful and I must say I now
find myself very addicted to it as well. The detail, bredth and
painstaking love that has gone into it is amazing. Best of all Harn works
incredibly well in the RoleMaster framework. The best game system merged
with the best world system (IMHO of course).
Sadly getting ahold of Harn material is a daunting task. Nearly no one
stocks Columbia Games products so you are left with mailorder.
Considering the volume of information that is out for Harn getting it
all would be a lengthy and expensive task.
So I eagerly cast my vote in Harn's favor.
(Am I to take by an earlier post that N. Robin Crosby has split from
Columbia to produce his own Harn supplements?)
Don Mappin
dma...@xmission.com
Magnus Lycka
Don Mappin wrote:
> (Am I to take by an earlier post that N. Robin Crosby has split from
> Columbia to produce his own Harn supplements?)
Crossby has never been 'employed' by Columbia Games. They publish things
he write, and he gets licence money. Recently he has decided to
privately publish things that Columbia won't bother to sell. This is not
any exclusive shiny colour booklets, but rather low budget laser
printouts or e-mailed files from Word. Nothing to consider unless you
find content much more important than looks.
So far he has produced descriptions of 'the Harnic Tarot', which is
available at <http://www.well.com/user/taustin/>. It doesn't include any
actual deck of cards though. The descriptions of the cards are very
nice, and it's really a pity that CG (who actually makes card games)
didn't print this. In my opinion Tarot is very useful in role playing,
so it's a good idea. (There is a useful text on tarot in frp in the
GRASS archives at ???.whaton.upenn.edu).
Concerning HarnMaster 2, Robin has let the Harn Mailing list preview and
comment some parts. We have given some comments and he has modified
things based on that. In parallel it seems that Columbia Games has
edited the game as well, and mainly with the aim of making it suit a
'broader audience'. While this seems to have turned out well, it's not
quite what Robin had in mind, and he is something of a perfectionist.
Since HM has been out of print for long I can understand that CG didn't
want to wait any longer. Because of this Robin has decided to finish his
own design of the game, which will (as far as I understand) be closer in
spirit to the first edition, and publish it on the net. This will most
likely not be in the shops.
Magnus
Iron Czar
dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:
>Magnus Lycka (magnus...@gbg.frontec.se) wrote:
><SNIP>
>> It's still my favourite world, without any doubt. It's more realistic
>> and consistent than any other fantasy product that I have ever seen
>> before or after. There are just two disadvantages in my opinion.
>Actually, you forgot problem number three: Harn bites.
Whatever.
><UNPAID ADD FOR HARN SNIPPED>
>There is very little worthwile in Harn IMNSHO. The equipment lists are
>excellent and the idea of graphical representations of injuries (instead
>of abstract hit points) is a good one, but on the whole, the system is not
>worth it. The creatures are boring, the system is cumbersome and the book
>itself looks very unprofessional.
These comments do *not* apply to the world of Harn. They apply to the
*RPG*, Harnmaster, which is *not* required to admire and enjoy Harn.
HarnWorld is an entirely separate product from the HarnMaster rules
system.
IMO, Harn is one of the two best settings ever devised for roleplaying
(the other being M.A.R. barker's Tekumel.) I feel compelled to defend
it against what I see as an obviously ininformed attack. The level of
detail in Harn is astounding. Virtually evey settlement of note has
been mapped out and detailed.
>In short, unless your are an avid games collector who wants a rare piece
>for your collection, avoid Harn.
My reccommendation would be, if you want a the most detailed and
consistent setting available, check Harn out.
>PS - This is not a flame of the original post, it is simply an alternative
>opinion.
"Harn is crap" hardly qualifies as a well-presented opinion.
I suggest you take a look at the Harn material again. (The setting,
*not* the mechanics.)
I am,
Iron Czar
Magnus Lycka
Dave Brohman wrote:
> There is very little worthwile in Harn IMNSHO. The equipment lists are
> excellent and the idea of graphical representations of injuries (instead
> of abstract hit points) is a good one, but on the whole, the system is not
> worth it. The creatures are boring, the system is cumbersome and the book
> itself looks very unprofessional.
Dave is obvioulsy talking about first edition HarnMaster. That's what I
use, and _I_ like it. It's been out of print for a long time though, so
that's a moot point. The new rules where released at GenCon. As far as I
understand, combat is quicker there, and I have not heard anyone
complain about the way it looked - rather the other way around. I really
hope the shops will carry it so that people get a chance to see for
themselves.
The really strong side of N. Robin Crossby's production is the World
Harn, not the rules system. I like those rules, but the world is really
awesome.
OK, it's not the most exotic fantasy world out there. It's probably much
more 'ordinary' than other fantasy worlds, but it's probably the most
coherent and believable world in fantasy role playing. If you want to
bash dragons and halfgods you are probably better off with a different
world, but if you like intrigue, subtle mysteries or simply a fantasy
setting which is logically more coherent - then Harn is really something
to take a look at.
I guess Harn requires a little more from the GM though. There is less of
colourful effects and extreme monsters there, and rather few prepared
adventures. I think most Harn GM's and PC's are older and more
experienced than the average gamer - bored with ever escalating
super-monster-hero-
save-the-universe campaigns where the aim seems to be to collect some
abstract experience points.
David Dunham
In article <4uu15g$g...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
dbro...@chat.carleton.ca (Dave Brohman) wrote:
> > It's still my favourite world, without any doubt. It's more realistic
> > and consistent than any other fantasy product that I have ever seen
> > before or after.
> There is very little worthwile in Harn IMNSHO. The equipment lists are
> excellent and the idea of graphical representations of injuries (instead
> of abstract hit points) is a good one, but on the whole, the system is not
> worth it. The creatures are boring, the system is cumbersome and the book
> itself looks very unprofessional.
You seem to be commenting on the rules, not the world.
David Dunham Pensee Corporation dun...@pensee.com
Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404 http://www.pensee.com/dunham/
"I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want."
"What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams
Mr. Tines
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On 14 Aug 1996 22:32:04 -0700, in <321254...@primenet.com>
David Caudill <pan...@primenet.com> wrote.....
> all boring. There is the Aklash who regerates and whos breath can
> disble the hartiest of warriors. There is the Vlasta - the Eater of
> Eyes. Like the name says, they enjoy attacking the eyes. And, there is
> a logical reason for the monsters! (Novel concept!) There is a god
> (called Ilvir) dwelling on Harn who enjoyes experimenting with
> different types of life-forms. He constructs all sorts of monsters for
> his own amusement. This means that, should you need a new monster, you
> have a ready-made excuse as to why it exists, and why people may have
> never seen its like before. Instead of most worlds where you just say,
> "Cuz I said so."
So "Cuz I said Ilvir said so" is that much better? I must humbly beg to
differ on that. Indeed to my mind the <highly magical agency be it god,
priest or wizard> churning out random horrors has somewhat less integrity,
by trying to offload the GM's desire to try yet another monster onto one of
his game-level constructs.
- --
_______ Roger Penrose cannot consistently
/_ __(_)__ ___ ___ assert this statement.
/ / / / _ \/ -_|_-<
/_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@windsong.demon.co.uk
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Marc KTW Mielke
David Caudill <pan...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<321254...@primenet.com>...
> And, there is
> a logical reason for the monsters! (Novel concept!) There is a god
> (called Ilvir) dwelling on Harn who enjoyes experimenting with
> different types of life-forms. He constructs all sorts of monsters for
> his own amusement. This means that, should you need a new monster, you
> have a ready-made excuse as to why it exists, and why people may have
> never seen its like before. Instead of most worlds where you just say,
> "Cuz I said so."
>
THAT'S a logical reason for bizarre creatures? Sound more like the
designer's in-game way of saying "Cuz I said so".
-Marc
Douglas E. Berry
In article <01bb8c76$6d66bde0$7949...@DemeterIII.hula.net>,
"Marc KTW Mielke" <syk...@hula.net> wrote:
>THAT'S a logical reason for bizarre creatures? Sound more like the
>designer's in-game way of saying "Cuz I said so".
You haven't heard the whole story... The Ivashu are rare, and Father Ilvir is
worshiped by many on Harn, especially in Jarin lands (never say Orbaal!!!)
Any adventure involving Ivashu will be more than a monster hunt, it will be an
encounter with a species of one, twisted by Ivashu's humor.
You want mass-killing, ala AD&D? Fine. I'll group you in front of a Gargun
complex about two mintues before a Horde starts.
William Dalton
slei...@northernnet.com (JL) wrote:
><three posts snipped>
>I cast my vote FOR Harn here.
>I think it is one of the BEST gaming worlds around. The level of
...
I agree Harn is an excellent gaming world. I have used the Harn maps
for years in my own homebrew campaigns, but there is one _pre-fab_
gaming world that perhaps even surpasses Harn in its level of detail.
Tekumel.
-William
Jason salem
d...@kesmai.com (Dave Weinstein) wrote:
>I took a rather cursory look at Harnmaster II at GenCon, and decided to
>stick with Harnmaster I, at least for the forseable future.
How would you summarize the differences? This is the first I've heard
even about the existance of HM 2, so have no basis of my own on which
to make such a decision.
Jason Salem
Database Administrator
DATASTORM Technologies Inc/Quarterdeck Communications Division
Dave Weinstein
Jason salem (jas...@computerland.net) wrote:
: How would you summarize the differences? This is the first I've heard
: even about the existance of HM 2, so have no basis of my own on which
: to make such a decision.
There was a simplification of the mechanics (especially the combat mechanics)
in the interest of speed. Frankly, I think the Harnmastr I mechanics walk
the line between verisimilitude and speed of play perfectly. Moreover, the
driving reason behind it (you cannot really use Harnmaster I in convention
tournaments, according to Columbia) does not apply to my usage anyway.
A cursory look was enough to convince me that it wasn't worth the $30 right
now; I'll stick with Harnmaster I and the Shek Pvar magic expansion. I can't
necessarily fault Columbia's logic (if you can't hook people at conventions,
you have trouble hooking them period), but that's also rather emphatically
not my problem.
So I picked up Traveller 4th Edition instead...
[And a *whole* lot of Flashpoint]
Allan Goodall
Jason salem wrote:
>
> d...@kesmai.com (Dave Weinstein) wrote:
>
> >I took a rather cursory look at Harnmaster II at GenCon, and decided to
> >stick with Harnmaster I, at least for the forseable future.
>
> even about the existance of HM 2, so have no basis of my own on which
> to make such a decision.
I, too, saw it at GenCon. I got into a little bit of a debate with one of the company's
owners over it, too.
Harnmaster 2 comes as individual 8.5 x 11 sheets punched for a binder. They were selling
it with a binder for US$35 or without a binder for US$30; the "non-binder" edition was
stuffed into one of their vinyl slipcase thingies. The rules came with a pad of
character sheets.
Graphically, it is one of the most attractive rulebooks I've ever seen. The rules are
printed on good quality paper stock. The sections are colour coded so that rules are
very easy to find. In fact, colour is used extensively throughout the book. If you refer
to Harnmaster 1, for instance, you will see a number of line drawings (usually of people
or monsters). These drawings are in full colour in HM2. The combat tables are, of
course, in full colour.
The book seems to be organized a bit better than in HM1. Of course being in a binder it
is easier to add pages to the rules (you could do this in HM1, but it was a pain to cut
out all of the rules). Otherwise, the organization isn't much different from HM1. Having
dropped binders and had them break open, I'm not too crazy about the binder approach. I
admit that it's the best method for handling rulebooks that change a lot, but I've found
Harnmaster's rules to be reasonably static versus other game systems.
There are some rules changes, but not a lot of them. Combat has been simplified. I
didn't read through it too carefully, but it seems to be a little simpler than HM1 but
not as simplified as BattleLust. A welcome addition is the "combined armour" table,
which indicates the armour values when you add a bunch of different types of armour
together. I didn't see much difference in the magic rules (though I may have just missed
it). I forgot to check to see if they included most of the Shek-Pvar supplement with
HM2. For the most part the rules seem to be cleared up instead of altered. The character
generation portion, for example, has a number of examples and some good explanations of
the various character types.
All in all, HM2 looks different from HM1 and is probably easier to use, but there aren't
very many rules changes. And this is where the debate came in. When I finished looking
through the book, the Columbia Games person asked me what I thought of it. I said I
liked the book but thought it was a bit expensive. He said to me that it was actually a
loss leader for the company and it should really sell for around US$50. Personally, I
don't doubt this, but I said that I still thought it was too expensive and that colour
was the culprit. He got defensive and said that the colour is what made it so much
easier to use. I said that I agreed, but that I personally would have preferred very
little colour and a cheaper price. The CG guy seemed a little peeved at my attitude.
Unless you found the old rulebook hard to use and would really welcome the colour, I
don't recommend buying HM2. The next time I play the game, I'll probably use BattleLust
for combat as it is even simpler and faster paced than HM2 while giving a similar feel.
The rest of the changes don't justify the cost, IMHO. I wish that Columbia had released
an "upgrade" pack for those of us who have supported the company over the years. I'd
like to have the new combat rules, but not for US$30 - US$35 (which is about Canadian
$50). If the game was US$20 (C$30), I'd probably pick it up as I'm a completist.
--
Allan Goodall, Sales and Marketing Systems, Kodak Canada, Inc.
INTERNET: WORK: all...@kodak.com HOME: agoo...@sympatico.ca
VOICE: (416) 766-8233 ext 35473 FAX: (416) 760-4597
Visit the Kodak Web site at: http://www.kodak.com
Robert A. Uhl
Joe Feyas <joef...@ix.netcom.com> spake thusly:
[5th Age of Middle Earth]
>Something like 400 to 500 years. It was very epic, including the return
>of the Nagul to power. There was a decline in humans and an increase in
>all non-human populations.
I hate to be rude, but how the heck did the Nazgul return? They
_died_. Not temporarily. Only one man has ever returned from death
(Beren, I think), and he didn't talk about. He returned because he
was good. No way Eru would allow the return of the Ringwraiths.
--
Robert Uhl | Save the Ales! Homebrewer Since 1995
Orthodox Christian | If you like the Macintosh, send mail to
Macintosh Programmer | evang...@macway.com for information about the
Bolo Player (Spectre) | EvangeList, Guy Kawasaki's list for Mac advocates.
DAn
Robert Uhl wrote:
> I hate to be rude, but how the heck did the Nazgul return? They
> _died_. Not temporarily. Only one man has ever returned from death
> (Beren, I think), and he didn't talk about. He returned because he
> was good. No way Eru would allow the return of the Ringwraiths.
The Nazgul were not dead, they were just in hiding (at least, if
I'm thinking about the right Age). The first to return was the Nazgul
at Dol Gulder in the southern end of Mirkwood. That's where Gandalf
disappeared to in the Hobbit, leaving Bilbo and company to deal
with the spiders and wood elves. Later, they returned in full force
when Sauron attempted to destroy Gondor. DAn
David Dunham
In article <4uvtov$7...@news.xmission.com>, dma...@xmission.com (Don
Mappin) wrote:
> Sadly getting ahold of Harn material is a daunting task. Nearly no one
> stocks Columbia Games products so you are left with mailorder.
Last time I was at American Eagles in Seattle, they had several Harn
products. And Gary's Games (also Seattle) had some Harn stuff in their
used section (I bought the one with the Manor economics article).
William Geiger
I say Talislanta. it's an excellent High magic world. There are an
excellent
amount of different races(none of the typical elfs/dwarves/hobbits) The
system looks good, and with the newest edition detailing the gathering
of the beastmen, theres loads of adventure oppertunities.
JUERGEN HUBERT
DAn writes:
> Robert Uhl wrote:
> > I hate to be rude, but how the heck did the Nazgul return? They
> > _died_. Not temporarily. Only one man has ever returned from death
> > (Beren, I think), and he didn't talk about. He returned because he
> > was good. No way Eru would allow the return of the Ringwraiths.
>
> The Nazgul were not dead, they were just in hiding (at least, if
> I'm thinking about the right Age).
> [...]
You aren't...we were talking about the _fifth_ age. And I would say that, if in
doubt, the GM overrules Eru, though I surely would be interested in a more
detailed explaination...
--
Juergen Hubert
HUB...@gawein.physik.uni-erlangen.de
"Sometimes I do stupid stuff, and I don't even know why...
..as if my body were controlled by some demented, sadistic puppet-master..."
-- Bernard Bernoulli
"Well, we all feel that way sometimes."
-- Weird Ed Edison
in: "Day of the Tentacle"
Iron Czar
PHP...@prodigy.com (William Geiger) wrote:
I like Talislanta (particularly the older edition before WotC got
their hand upon it.)
Talislanta does not, however, rival the depth of Harn. Nor do I think
is it supposed to. Rather, Talislanta is a very broad setting, with
great of diversity.
If I had to rank what I think are the three best fantasy worlds, in
order, they would be:
First> Tekumel
Close Second> Harn
Third> Talislanta
I am,
Iron Czar
David Caudill
Marc KTW Mielke wrote:
<SNIP>
> THAT'S a logical reason for bizarre creatures? Sound more like the
> designer's in-game way of saying "Cuz I said so".
Well, not really. You see, in Harn Ilavshu (monsters) are
*extremely* rare! They aren't encountered every day by the avarage
people. Nor are there wizards out there creating tons of mistakes and
letting them loose on the world. Ilvir adds some variety and
excitement to the world. Unlike, say, AD&D where monsters are found
*everywhere*!
*****************************************************************
* David Caudill ---- Pan...@primenet.com *
*F.A.N.G. - Ferret Association of Neverending Glee Shelter/Club *
* Vice President and Co-Founder *
* Ste 778 3929 Overland *
* Boise, Idaho 83705 *
*****************************************************************
Famous Last Words in Role Playing Games's: #081
"OK, O Mighty Odin, as long as you're not gonna answer my prayers, I'm
gonna tell ya what I REALLY think of ya!"
David Caudill
Allan Goodall wrote:
<SNIP>
> Unless you found the old rulebook hard to use and would really >welcome the colour, I
> don't recommend buying HM2. The next time I play the game, I'll >probably use BattleLust
> for combat as it is even simpler and faster paced than HM2 while >giving a similar feel.
> The rest of the changes don't justify the cost, IMHO. I wish that >Columbia had released
> an "upgrade" pack for those of us who have supported the company >over the years. I'd
> like to have the new combat rules, but not for US$30 - US$35 (which >is about Canadian
> $50). If the game was US$20 (C$30), I'd probably pick it up as I'm a >completist.
Columbia Games has made it evident that this is the "last, best
hope" for Harn. If sales of HM II are poor, Harn will most likely
become a dead project for Columbia. So, I encourage all Harn fans (and
those looking for a great game), to purchase the new HM II.
David Caudill
David Dunham wrote:
>
> In article <4uvtov$7...@news.xmission.com>, dma...@xmission.com (Don
> Mappin) wrote:
>
> > Sadly getting ahold of Harn material is a daunting task. Nearly no > >one
> > stocks Columbia Games products so you are left with mailorder.
>
> Last time I was at American Eagles in Seattle, they had several Harn
> products. And Gary's Games (also Seattle) had some Harn stuff in their
> used section (I bought the one with the Manor economics article).
Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
Sergey Drabkin
JUERGEN HUBERT <HUB...@gawein.physik> wrote:
>DAn writes:
>
>> Robert Uhl wrote:
>> > I hate to be rude, but how the heck did the Nazgul return? They
>> > _died_. Not temporarily. Only one man has ever returned from death
>> > (Beren, I think), and he didn't talk about. He returned because he
>> > was good. No way Eru would allow the return of the Ringwraiths.
>>
>> The Nazgul were not dead, they were just in hiding (at least, if
>> I'm thinking about the right Age).
>> [...]
>
>You aren't...we were talking about the _fifth_ age. And I would say that, if in
>doubt, the GM overrules Eru, though I surely would be interested in a more
>detailed explaination...
If memory serves, they didn't actually die. Only the Witch-King of Angmar
was said to actually die (Merry killed him). As for the other eight --- I
would say that when the Ring was destroyed, they were made into formless
shadows. But as time went on, they began to rise back to power and came
to haunt the Kingdoms of Men in Arda . . .
JL
David Caudill <pan...@primenet.com> is rumored to have spoken thusly:
>Marc KTW Mielke wrote:
><SNIP>
>> THAT'S a logical reason for bizarre creatures? Sound more like the
>> designer's in-game way of saying "Cuz I said so".
>> -Marc
> Well, not really. You see, in Harn Ilavshu (monsters) are
>*extremely* rare! They aren't encountered every day by the avarage
>people. Nor are there wizards out there creating tons of mistakes and
>letting them loose on the world. Ilvir adds some variety and
>excitement to the world. Unlike, say, AD&D where monsters are found
>*everywhere*!
I've always hated that.
There are more monsters in AD&D, that if these things existed in a
real ecology, everything would be all screwed up.
As is, you can't walk down the street without bumping into some sort
of beastie.
One of the other DMs I play with has one gripe about Dark Sun, the
fact that you cannot find the stats for the major beasties of the
world (Mekillots, etc) anywhere except out of print books (well, he
has one more, but that's another post).
With all the thousands (by now) of different monsters, your characters
will never (and SHOULD never) run into all of them. Only a select few
are needed for a well-run campaign. Who wants to fight a new creature
each week?
Having old foes is better, with new ones introduced occasionally.
I'm rambling, but hey, don't I always?
-Oarim
******************************************************
"I stopped playing Magic: The Gathering(tm) when
a booster pack started costing more than a good book."
Wayne J. Rasmussen
David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
: David Dunham wrote:
: >
: > In article <4uvtov$7...@news.xmission.com>, dma...@xmission.com (Don
: > Mappin) wrote:
: >
: > > Sadly getting ahold of Harn material is a daunting task. Nearly no
: > >one
: > > stocks Columbia Games products so you are left with mailorder.
: >
: > Last time I was at American Eagles in Seattle, they had several Harn
: > products. And Gary's Games (also Seattle) had some Harn stuff in their
: > used section (I bought the one with the Manor economics article).
: Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
: be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
(perhaps big ocean?).
wayne
David Caudill
Wayne J. Rasmussen wrote:
>
> David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
<SNIP>
> : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
> : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
>
> Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
> system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
> detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
> of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
> few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
> (perhaps big ocean?).
Huh? That doesn't make sense. If HarnMaster II fails, there will be
*NO* more Harn World products! No more "highly detailed maps" or
"political details". Harn will end as it is. I, for one, would like to
see the development of mainland Lythia. Also, I would like to see more
city maps, more adventures (they are generic enough for any system),
as well as more HarnMaster development.
*****************************************************************
* David Caudill ---- Pan...@primenet.com *
*F.A.N.G. - Ferret Association of Neverending Glee Shelter/Club *
* Vice President and Co-Founder *
* Ste 778 3929 Overland *
* Boise, Idaho 83705 *
*****************************************************************
Famous Last Words in Role Playing Games's: #084
"No, I'm sure there's some stipulation that says a disintegrate spell
won't work if the spellcaster casts it on himself. Here, I'll prove
it."
Wayne J. Rasmussen
David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Wayne J. Rasmussen wrote:
: >
: > David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
: <SNIP>
: > : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
: > : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
: >
: > Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
: > system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
: > detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
: > of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
: > few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
: > (perhaps big ocean?).
: Huh? That doesn't make sense. If HarnMaster II fails, there will be
: *NO* more Harn World products! No more "highly detailed maps" or
: "political details". Harn will end as it is. I, for one, would like to
: see the development of mainland Lythia. Also, I would like to see more
: city maps, more adventures (they are generic enough for any system),
: as well as more HarnMaster development.
I don't care for yet another role-playing system. The ONLY value Harn
has for me is a GREAT setting for role-playing. Other than a few people
on rec.games.frp.* who claim to like the rules, I haven't talked to
anyone who wants their rules. These people want the Harn setting. If
Columbia Games is ignorant of their customers they deserve to die. I
will NOT support ($$$) a RPG rules system just to keep a great setting in
print.
Lets face it. In this day of CCGs, companies seem to be taking the quick
and easy road to game design. They seem to be rapidly producing
quantity rather than slowly producing quality. I am sure Columbia Games can
write tons of pages of rules in the time it takes to create just one of
their maps. Perhaps I am wrong, but, I prefer quality.
wayne
Anthony Ragan
David Caudill <pan...@primenet.com> screamed into the Void:
> Huh? That doesn't make sense. If HarnMaster II fails, there will be
>*NO* more Harn World products! No more "highly detailed maps" or
>"political details". Harn will end as it is. I, for one, would like to
>see the development of mainland Lythia. Also, I would like to see more
>city maps, more adventures (they are generic enough for any system),
>as well as more HarnMaster development.
If HM2 is the make or break product for the rest of the Harn
line, then I think the future looks very grim for Harn. The book is
beautiful, but $38 for _just_ character creation and combat? Not even
the basic rules for magic? Like I told the CG rep at GenCon, for $38
I'd prefer more moderate production values and more information.
*****
--Anthony Ragan
Snotling in Chief, Staadtholder van Marienburg
Iris...@worldnet.att.net (primary) & Iris...@aol.com (secondary)
The Warhammer FRP FAQ is at:
ftp://ftp.pvv.unit/no/pub/warhammer/FAQ3.2
Neil Mackie
Wayne J. Rasmussen (w...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : David Dunham wrote:
: : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
: : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
: Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
: system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
: detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
: of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
: few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
: (perhaps big ocean?).
: wayne
I must say that's a foolish answer, I hope that Harnmaster II succeeds so
that Columbia Games can get enough revenue to finance reprinting older
regional modules and developing newer ones. If Harnmaster II fails to sell,
Columbia Games would probably drop the entire Harn line in order to
concentrate on their more lucrative wargames and card games.
From discussion on the Harn mailing list, there are plenty of modules ready
to go...all that is needed is money to print them! So hoping that HM II fails
will be detrimental to anyone who plays in the Harn universe, whether they
use the RPG or not
Neil
--
+-------------...@lamar.colostate.edu-----------------------+
| Neil M. Mackie Colorado State University |
| Chemistry Department Fort Collins |
+----------------http://www.chm.colostate.edu/erf/---------------------+
Wayne J. Rasmussen
Neil Mackie (nm...@lamar.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
: : : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
: : : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
: : Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
: : system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
: : detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
: : of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
: : few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
: : (perhaps big ocean?).
: : wayne
: I must say that's a foolish answer, I hope that Harnmaster II succeeds so
: that Columbia Games can get enough revenue to finance reprinting older
: regional modules and developing newer ones.
Well if you I am wrong in thinking that Columbia should concentrate their
RPG business efforts on the very popular campaign setting rather than a
very non-popular set of rules then perhaps I am foolish.
: If Harnmaster II fails to sell,
: Columbia Games would probably drop the entire Harn line in order to
: concentrate on their more lucrative wargames and card games.
I feel that anyone who thinks Harn II will be well received is fooling
themselves.
I know someone who manages a game store in LA and when I told him what
was reported here he felt it was the death of Harn.
: From discussion on the Harn mailing list, there are plenty of modules ready
: to go...all that is needed is money to print them!
I wish they would have just started producing those instead of new rules
system.
: So hoping that HM II fails will be detrimental to anyone who plays in
: the Harn universe, whether they use the RPG or not.
I don't wish them to fail. They produce perhaps the greatest campaign
setting in history. I feel it is almost a fact that Harn II will fail.
If they will only continue to produce new harn material if Harn II
sells well seems like a 99.9999999999% chance of failure to me.
wayne
Terry Austin
w...@netcom.com (Wayne J. Rasmussen) wrote:
>Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
>system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
>detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
>of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
>few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
>(perhaps big ocean?).
Unfortunately, their distributors don't want to support a product line
that doesn't include a game system. Normally, the game system
outsells any campaign by quite a bit. Never mind that (according to
Columba) HarnWorld outsold HarnMaster consistently (when both were in
print at the same time) by 2 to 1. Distributors can be a bit dense,
sometimes.
It leaves Columia between a rock and a hard place, and Robin Crossby
even worse off. I'd really hate to see that much talent lost to the
gaming industry because the distributors are demanding something the
consumer won't buy.
---------------------------------
Terry Austin
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
New at Hyperbooks:
Character Constructor for CORPS, by Bruce Kvam
http://www.well.com/user/taustin
---------------------------------
J. Patrick McDonald
iris...@worldnet.att.net (Anthony Ragan) writes:
> If HM2 is the make or break product for the rest of the Harn
>line, then I think the future looks very grim for Harn. The book is
>beautiful, but $38 for _just_ character creation and combat? Not even
>the basic rules for magic? Like I told the CG rep at GenCon, for $38
>I'd prefer more moderate production values and more information.
Character generation and combat only?
Hmm, apparently you missed the other 86 pages of this 134 page product.
HM2 is a much more sophisticated game than any on the market today, and I
really like the new product. The psionics rules have some interesting
notes on "latent talents" that will make campaigns interesting, and the
skills section is very complete, allowing you to play a variety of
character types that all work well in the world of Harn. Harper, Herald,
Mercantyler, Pilot, Seaman, Thief, & Weaponcrafter are all very viable
character occupations and are recommended in addition to the more combat
oriented varieties: (Gladiator, Hunter, Huscarl, Legionnaire, Mercenary,
Ranger, Viking, Yeoman, & Knight)--Granted, Mage & Cleric will be detailed
in separate books; and more detail will be given on military careers in a
future expansion--but HarnWorld is set up in a way that there is plenty of
opportunity for adventure without resorting to "power-gaming".
Oh, and if you care to delve into character concepts beyond those
recommended for novice gamers, or simply wish to create detailed NPCs,
the following are also possible:
Farmer, Herdsman, Cook, Animal Trainer, Beggar, Cartographer, Fisherman,
Herdsman, Laborer, Longshoremen, Prostitute/Pimp, Ratter, Sage/Tutor,
Scribe, Teamster, Thatcher, Toymaker, Alchemist, Astrologyer, Apothecary,
Chandler, Clothier, Courtesan, Embalmer, Glassworker, Hideworker,
Innkeeper, Jeweler, Lexigrapher, Litigant, Locksmith, Mason, Metalsmith,
Miller, Miner, Ostler, Perfumer, Physician, Potter, Salter, Shipwright,
Tentmaker, Thespian, Timberwright, & Woodcrafter.
While some of these are obviously more fun than others, there _are_ a lot
of possibilities. Herdsman & Animal Trainers can find adventure and a
lucrative income obtaining "wild beasts" for the Gladatorial games,
Ostlers and Mercantylers will find challenges trading with the barbarian
tribes for wild horses and hides. Cartographer's will find plenty of
"uncharted" territory to map. Courtesans, Innkeepers, Thespians, & Sages
will find plenty of court intrigue to keep them busy, and any guildsman
could find his way (with enough money) into the Thardic Senate where the
opportunities are endless.
The detailed HarnWorld setting makes playing such characters fun and
rewarding. Something you cant really get from other rules and backgrounds.
On the HarnList recently, one member recounted some of the exploits of "a
humble glassblower" that were legendary.
But if you really need "Magic" to expand your imagination, there will be
plenty of that in the Magic supplement.
--
J. Patrick McDonald |HOBBES: (reading book report): "The Dynamics of
Extension Assistant |Interbeing and Monological Imperatives in DICK & JANE
Kansas State University |A Study in Psychic Transrelational Gender Modes."
ea...@ksu.edu |CALVIN: "Academia here I come!" <Bill Watterson>
J. Patrick McDonald
w...@netcom.com (Wayne J. Rasmussen) writes:
>I don't care for yet another role-playing system. The ONLY value Harn
>has for me is a GREAT setting for role-playing. Other than a few people
>on rec.games.frp.* who claim to like the rules, I haven't talked to
>anyone who wants their rules. These people want the Harn setting. If
>Columbia Games is ignorant of their customers they deserve to die. I
>will NOT support ($$$) a RPG rules system just to keep a great setting in
>print.
Well I attended the HarnMaster II Q&A session at GenCon, so I (& a few
others) got a chance to chat with CG's owner and the HMII editor. CG is
_not_ ignorant of what their customers want. Their problem is that
distributors have refused to stock HarnWorld Products while HM was out of
print, and HMII is an attempt to improve the poor sales of HMI. The
impression I got was that if HMII fails, HarnWorld is dead at CG.
What amazes me is the number of people who claim to be experts on HMII
who have never seen the system, let alone played it. I've done both, and
like it a great deal. I would encourage anyone looking for a challenging
RPG that stimulates your brain to check out HarnWorld and HMII. Even if
it doesn't look interesting in the store, I'd encourage you to
participate in a demo at a con.
>Lets face it. In this day of CCGs, companies seem to be taking the quick
>and easy road to game design. They seem to be rapidly producing
>quantity rather than slowly producing quality. I am sure Columbia Games can
>write tons of pages of rules in the time it takes to create just one of
>their maps. Perhaps I am wrong, but, I prefer quality.
Interesting that you would attack the "quality" of the rules. You've
obviously not seen them. Production values are higher than any product on
the market today--with the exception perhaps of those CCGs. The design is
consistent and well thought out. It is also a lot simpler than most
people believe without sacrificing detail and realism to abstraction.
"rapidly producing quantity rather than slowly producing quality" ???
I'll have to forward this to CG. I'm certain its the _first_ time they've
ever been accused of this.
Oh, and about those CCG's. Its amazing to me that gamers will decry the
$38 price tag for a product like HarnMaster, but think nothing of
dropping $80 to $100, on a "partial rule set" in the form of a box of CCG
booster packs. Let alone shell out $150+ for a black lotus. Perhaps
HarnMaster should have been printed one rule at a time on playing cards.
Dave Weinstein
J. Patrick McDonald (ea...@ksu.ksu.edu) wrote:
: Character generation and combat only?
[Deletia]
: But if you really need "Magic" to expand your imagination, there will be
: plenty of that in the Magic supplement.
Which, unfortunately, means that the HMII core set is *less* complete than
the HMI rule book, which did contain the magic and religion sections. Frankly,
I think releasing the game without the basic magic rules was a big mistake.
Starman
In article <4vqqgc$a...@dot.cstone.net>, d...@kesmai.com says...
>Which, unfortunately, means that the HMII core set is *less* complete than
>the HMI rule book, which did contain the magic and religion sections.
Frankly,
>I think releasing the game without the basic magic rules was a big mistake.
>
>--Dave
For the Harn gamer if playing in the Harn world, this is not a huge problem.
Harn is by its very nature a fairly low magic world.
Terry Austin
ea...@ksu.ksu.edu (J. Patrick McDonald) wrote:
>Oh, and about those CCG's. Its amazing to me that gamers will decry the
>$38 price tag for a product like HarnMaster, but think nothing of
>dropping $80 to $100, on a "partial rule set" in the form of a box of CCG
>booster packs. Let alone shell out $150+ for a black lotus.
I was amazed, too. Laughed about it all the way to the bank. Maybe
I'll use the money to buy HMII. Between the Black Lotus and the
complete set of Mox's, I could buy about 15 copies.
>Perhaps
>HarnMaster should have been printed one rule at a time on playing cards.
It might have sold better.
Terry Austin
w...@netcom.com (Wayne J. Rasmussen) wrote:
>Well if you I am wrong in thinking that Columbia should concentrate their
>RPG business efforts on the very popular campaign setting rather than a
>very non-popular set of rules then perhaps I am foolish.
That would be pretty pointless if the distributors won't stock it
without the rules set. I think the distributors are pretty out of
touch on this, but that's how they feel.
>I know someone who manages a game store in LA and when I told him what
>was reported here he felt it was the death of Harn.
At Columbia, perhaps, but keep in mind Columbia does *not* own Harn.
Robin Crossby does. If Columbia drops Harn, Robin is free to do with
it as he pleases, including taking it to another company or publishing
it himself. Not necessarily the best options available, but Harn is
far from dead.
Robert A. Uhl
Sergey Drabkin <Sergey...@worldnet.att.net> spake thusly:
>
>If memory serves, they didn't actually die. Only the Witch-King of Angmar
>was said to actually die (Merry killed him). As for the other eight --- I
>would say that when the Ring was destroyed, they were made into formless
>shadows. But as time went on, they began to rise back to power and came
>to haunt the Kingdoms of Men in Arda . . .
They died. As the Ring (from which they derived their amazing
staying power via their rings) was destroyed, so were they. They
burnt up, much like the Witch King. Recall that they were merely men,
albeit men who were extraordinarily evil and long-lived. When the
power that sustained them was eliminated, they died. And but one man
returned from death (Beren). Read the Silmarillion. Read TlotR. It
is, IIRC, all in there.
Kbratager
Recently, the following was stated on this newsgroup:
>>I know someone who manages a game store in LA and when I told him what
>>was reported here he felt it was the death of Harn.
>
>At Columbia, perhaps, but keep in mind Columbia does *not* own Harn.
>Robin Crossby does. If Columbia drops Harn, Robin is free to do with
>it as he pleases, including taking it to another company or publishing
>it himself. Not necessarily the best options available, but Harn is
>far from dead.
Just for the record, Columbia Games *does* own Harn. Robin Crossby (or
somebody acting on his behalf) would have to buy the publishing rights
from Columbia Games in order to produce the product elsewhere.
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but somebody has to keep our lawyer happy.
And by the way, I can certainly verify that there's almost no distributor
out there that will buy Harn-related material if a Harn-related Rules
System is not available. We have always wanted to do just generic
world-related modules, but the reality is that this approach is no longer
possible in today's marketplace. Thus, whether you want it or not, Second
Edition HarnMaster is on its way!
--Kevin
Kevin Bratager
Assistant Editor
Columbia Games, Inc.
e-mail: Kbratager @ aol.com
http://www.columbiagames.com/
Kbratager
Recently, the following exchange occurred between two learned individuals
who frequent this newsgroup and who are familiar with HarnMaster Second
Edition:
>> But if you really need "Magic" to expand your imagination, there will
be
>> plenty of that in the Magic supplement.
>
>Which, unfortunately, means that the HMII core set is *less* complete
than
>the HMI rule book, which did contain the magic and religion sections.
Frankly,
>I think releasing the game without the basic magic rules was a big
mistake.
It turns out that the merits and flaws of releasing the magic rules
separately from the core rules was recently discussed on the Harn-L
mailing list. If you'll forgive me, I'll post here the relevant part of a
message which appeared on the mailing list:
---------------------------------------
Date: Wed, Aug 21, 1996 03:08 PM EDT
From: Kbratager
Subj: Re: What?! No magic?!
To: HAR...@mitvma.mit.edu
Recently, Edwin Gantt <EdG...@MSN.COM> took out his magic markers and
wrote:
>Is it just me, or does it seem strange to be release a 38$ "fantasy"
>role-playing game system and NOT include magic rules (or religion rules,
for
>that matter)?
Well, let's deal with the magic rules first:
I can assure you that the decision to release the magic information
separately from the core rules was not something we did off the cuff. Tom
and I agonized over the decision a great deal.
Things basically boil down to three options: (a) release a HarnMaster II
with detailed information about magic and the spell lists, (b) release a
HarnMaster II with very basic information about magic and a couple of
spells for each convocation, or (c) release a separate book about magic
which corrects the typos, etc. in the spell tomes, presents the material
in a manner designed to be easy to learn but without being less rich, etc.
Option (a) is not comercially viable because we would have a book that is
over 144 pages long. The printing costs would be astronomical.
Option (b) certainly has appeal, and we were intending to do things this
way for most of the design process. The problem was that we couldn't find
any way to do justice to the material in 20 pages. Explaining the basic
information about magic takes about half the pages. Then you have spell
reasearch: the essence of the magic system. In order for a player to know
how to do original research, they need to know the metaphysics of their
convocation. In order to present the metaphysics, we need to present
examples of spells. Having only a couple of examples for each convocation
does not provide enough information for the player and GM to assess the
complexity of the spell (this was one of the biggest complaints about
HarnMaster I). In the end, we knew customers would complain if we took
this approach, so we decided it would be best to not repeat the mistake we
had made in HarnMaster I.
This leaves us with Option (c).
--------------------------------
Of course, people are complaining about the approach we took this time.
(Sigh.) The sad fact is that no matter which of the three options we
chose, we knew some of our customers would be disappointed. We tried to
take the option which would disappoint the fewest number of customers.
Time will determine if we succeeded at this.
In any event, the good news about all this is that the Magic supplement
was close to being completed at the time the Second Edition rules were
released. We had, in fact, wanted to release the two books together, but
it didn't prove possible to finish both of them in time for Gencon.
Getting HarnMaster Magic finished is our top priority right now. After it
is released, I hope the question of whether we made a mistake releasing
the magic rules separately from the core rules will become a moot point.
:-)
Grant Kinsley
w...@netcom.com (Wayne J. Rasmussen) wrote:
>David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: Wayne J. Rasmussen wrote:
>: >
>: > David Caudill (pan...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: <SNIP>
>: > : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
>: > : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
>: >
>: > Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
>: > system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
>: > detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
>: > of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
>: > few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
>: > (perhaps big ocean?).
>: Huh? That doesn't make sense. If HarnMaster II fails, there will be
>: *NO* more Harn World products! No more "highly detailed maps" or
>: "political details". Harn will end as it is. I, for one, would like to
>: see the development of mainland Lythia. Also, I would like to see more
>: city maps, more adventures (they are generic enough for any system),
>: as well as more HarnMaster development.
>I don't care for yet another role-playing system. The ONLY value Harn
>has for me is a GREAT setting for role-playing. Other than a few people
>on rec.games.frp.* who claim to like the rules, I haven't talked to
>anyone who wants their rules. These people want the Harn setting. If
>Columbia Games is ignorant of their customers they deserve to die. I
>will NOT support ($$$) a RPG rules system just to keep a great setting in
>print.
>Lets face it. In this day of CCGs, companies seem to be taking the quick
>and easy road to game design. They seem to be rapidly producing
>quantity rather than slowly producing quality. I am sure Columbia Games can
>write tons of pages of rules in the time it takes to create just one of
>their maps. Perhaps I am wrong, but, I prefer quality.
>wayne
Methinks you miss the point Wayne. Columbia Games can only continue to
make their quality products (and they do make quality not quantity,
trust me on this one.) if they are supported by gamer's dollars. If
HarnMaster II fails because it isn't supported by GM's and players
they will simply not be able to afford to produce those expensive to
produce support products with beautiful maps that only the GM will
buy. Following that I guess you will be stuck making your own world.
I suppose the other option is CG could just make the really cool
supplements and sell them for a couple o' hundred bucks a piece to
cover production costs.
Grant Kinsley M.D.
Mission Games
Grant Kinsley
w...@netcom.com (Wayne J. Rasmussen) wrote:
>Neil Mackie (nm...@lamar.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
>: Wayne J. Rasmussen (w...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: : : David Dunham wrote:
>: : : Columbia has said that the release of new Harn products will partly
>: : : be determined by the success (or failure) of HarnMaster II.
>: : Well then I hope it fails. Why? Well I am not interested in their RPG
>: : system. What makes HARN great is the world. Everything from the highly
>: : detailed maps to the political details. Lets face it, the world is full
>: : of RPGs and so their RPG is a small fish in a big ocean. There are very
>: : few GREAT campaign settings which makes Harn a big fish in a small ocean
>: : (perhaps big ocean?).
>: : wayne
>: I must say that's a foolish answer, I hope that Harnmaster II succeeds so
>: that Columbia Games can get enough revenue to finance reprinting older
>: regional modules and developing newer ones.
>Well if you I am wrong in thinking that Columbia should concentrate their
>RPG business efforts on the very popular campaign setting rather than a
>very non-popular set of rules then perhaps I am foolish.
>: If Harnmaster II fails to sell,
>: Columbia Games would probably drop the entire Harn line in order to
>: concentrate on their more lucrative wargames and card games.
>I feel that anyone who thinks Harn II will be well received is fooling
>themselves.
Actually as a retailer I see quite a lot of excitement over Harn II,
and since i have to put my money where my mouth is I will be carrying
and supporting Harn II and the Harnworld capaign setting.
>I know someone who manages a game store in LA and when I told him what
>was reported here he felt it was the death of Harn.
Bluntly, this guy is an idiot and should open a card shop as it is
quite obvious he has no inclination towards supporting the small
gaming companies which is why the RPG market had such a tough time in
the past two years (while my GAME store remained faithful and supplied
many gamers with their favorite small press games while the
competition dropped RPG's in favor of cards.)
>: From discussion on the Harn mailing list, there are plenty of modules ready
>: to go...all that is needed is money to print them!
>I wish they would have just started producing those instead of new rules
>system.
Wish all you like, they are expensive to print and need a financial
influx with a cheaper to produce paper product that bluntly will sell
to a wider audience at a cheaper price point
Grant Kinsley
kbra...@aol.com (Kbratager) wrote:
>Recently, the following was stated on this newsgroup:
>>>I know someone who manages a game store in LA and when I told him what
>>>was reported here he felt it was the death of Harn.
>>
>>At Columbia, perhaps, but keep in mind Columbia does *not* own Harn.
>>Robin Crossby does. If Columbia drops Harn, Robin is free to do with
>>it as he pleases, including taking it to another company or publishing
>>it himself. Not necessarily the best options available, but Harn is
>>far from dead.
>Just for the record, Columbia Games *does* own Harn. Robin Crossby (or
>somebody acting on his behalf) would have to buy the publishing rights
>from Columbia Games in order to produce the product elsewhere.
>Sorry to be a wet blanket, but somebody has to keep our lawyer happy.
>And by the way, I can certainly verify that there's almost no distributor
>out there that will buy Harn-related material if a Harn-related Rules
>System is not available. We have always wanted to do just generic
>world-related modules, but the reality is that this approach is no longer
>possible in today's marketplace. Thus, whether you want it or not, Second
>Edition HarnMaster is on its way!
>--Kevin
And it will sell well at my store Kevin, Thank you very much
Grant Kinsley
Mission Games
Mission B.C.
Grant Kinsley
ru...@odin.cair.du.edu (Robert A. Uhl) wrote:
>Sergey Drabkin <Sergey...@worldnet.att.net> spake thusly:
>>
>>If memory serves, they didn't actually die. Only the Witch-King of Angmar
>>was said to actually die (Merry killed him).
Actually Eowyn killed the Witch King as he was fated to not die at the
hands of a man (but Eowyn was a woman.)
ler...@classic26.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
Saluton!
JUERGEN HUBERT (HUB...@gawein.physik) wrote:
[Nazguls' return]
: You aren't...we were talking about the _fifth_ age. And I would say that, if in
: doubt, the GM overrules Eru, though I surely would be interested in a more
: detailed explaination...
What the heck is *fifth* age on Middle-Earth? (At least, Nazguls
do belong to Middle-Earth; and last time I looked they only got
to number four??)
Ad Astra!
JuL
ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Realit"at ist eine Kr"ucke f"ur
J"urgen "JuL" Lerch / diejenigen, die mit der Fantasie
/ nicht zurechtkommen
Robert Trifts
sawb...@uniserve.coom (Grant Kinsley) wrote:
>ru...@odin.cair.du.edu (Robert A. Uhl) wrote:
>>Sergey Drabkin <Sergey...@worldnet.att.net> spake thusly:
>>>
>>>If memory serves, they didn't actually die. Only the Witch-King of Angmar
>>>was said to actually die (Merry killed him).
>Actually Eowyn killed the Witch King as he was fated to not die at the
>hands of a man (but Eowyn was a woman.)
Actually - you are, in a sense, both wrong. The Witch King was already
dead. He was an undead wraith - incorporeal and without substance
other than that given by his clothing, weapons, crown and steed. As
for his destruction, Tolkien wrote, when the Witch King was struck
down by Eowyn, that he "was never seen again in that age of
Middle-Earth", opening up the possibility that the Witch-King might
arise again in the Fourth age - for the Witch-King was also a powerful
Numenorean sorceror of the Royal Line and of the blood of Luthien
herself and VERY undead.
> As for the other eight --- I
>>>would say that when the Ring was destroyed, they were made into formless
>>>shadows. But as time went on, they began to rise back to power and came
>>>to haunt the Kingdoms of Men in Arda . . .
>>They died. As the Ring (from which they derived their amazing
>>staying power via their rings) was destroyed, so were they. They
>>burnt up, much like the Witch King. Recall that they were merely men,
>>albeit men who were extraordinarily evil and long-lived. When the
>>power that sustained them was eliminated, they died. And but one man
>>returned from death (Beren). Read the Silmarillion. Read TlotR. It
>>is, IIRC, all in there.
It is not so easy. The Remaining Eight did not necessarily die - for
in truth they were no longer merely men - ALL of them were already
dead. They flew back to Orodruin and on the way back dropped from the
sky burning to dwindle to a fiery speck on the plains of Gorgoroth
when Gollum fell in to the Crack of Doom. The Nine had long since
lost their rings which were held by Sauron. They *may* have the
capability to return as more than mere shadows after a very long time
- much in the way that Sauron did. The Nine did not have to come back
from the Dead as Beren did - they were already dead and remained so,
yet were tied to the Earth.
In a Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign I ran long ago, Saruman, who you
will remember in LoTR, had already crafted himself a Ring of Power
(and WOULD have learned the art of making a Great Ring of Power to
challenge the One Ring amidst the ruins of Barad-Dur according to
Tolkien himself in the forward to LoTR), rose as a power in the East
and called to himself the shades of the Ringwraiths to be bound as his
servants. It was from the crafting of his own Ring that Saruman's
innate abilties of sorcery dwindled. But this Ring contained much of
his power that was not undone when Gandalf broke his staff in the
judgment of the Valar.
And you will remember that Saruman's Ring of Power, too, surely found
its way in to the hands of a humble hobbit when they buried what was
left of Saruman's remains by New Bagshot Row (Sharkey's End in
Bywater!). Perhaps the Fairbarns of the Tower, long the keepers of
all old lore in the Shire during the Fourth Age, could tell you what
might have become of such a Ring...
Lastly - you will also remember that the Mouth of Sauron was a Black
Numenorean Sorceror who was NOT undead or a wraith - yet he was so
ancient he had forgotten his name. The Mouth did not perish at the
Morannon before the Lords of the West at the Final Battle either. It
may have been that the Mouth held one of Sauron's three Dwarven Rings
of Power to gain long life - but that is mere speculation. Perhaps
his long life was simply by sorcery?
The Orcs and half-orcs of Middle Earth were scattered when Sauron fell
- but again, lived still.
LOTS of life left in that old World - if you decide ICE's 1640 T.A.
post Great Plague setting is not to your liking...Spin the clock ahead
2000 years or so into the Fourth Age and start fresh - "everything old
is new again" and you can do pretty much whatever you want to its old
skeleton.
.Robert
Mark Hughes
Robert Trifts <rtr...@idirect.com> spake:
[many good ideas for extension of ME]
>LOTS of life left in that old World - if you decide ICE's 1640 T.A.
>post Great Plague setting is not to your liking...Spin the clock ahead
>2000 years or so into the Fourth Age and start fresh - "everything old
>is new again" and you can do pretty much whatever you want to its old
>skeleton.
When I ran a 4th Age campaign, I looked back to the Silmarillion - Morgoth.
He was bound with his iron crown and cast into the Void, where he was
supposedly powerless. But what if there were other forces out there? Things
like Shelob? I gave Morgoth some rather disturbing allies, and brought him
back, though he had to move very subtly to keep the Valar from moving on him.
At first, just harsh winters, Orcs organizing into a nation in the north, and
the western splinter of a broken-up Gondor trying to expand, while I sent the
PCs off in search of the lost Palantir... One of the players, a ME "scholar",
had a pretty good idea what they were facing by the time we broke up.
I limited magic use even more than usual (doubled all spell levels, and made
lists other than prosaic lists from RM's Spell-User's Companion very hard to
acquire, and unknown to the players magic use attracted Morgoth's attention),
allowed only humans, hobbits, mortal half-elves, and half-orcs as PCs, and had
very few magic items (had to rewrite the special equipment section)...
-<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"In headlines today, the dreaded killfile virus spread across the country
adding aol.com to people's usenet kill files everywhere. The programmer of
the virus still remains anonymous, but has been nominated several times for
a Nobel peace prize." -Mark Atkinson
William Geiger
>
>JUERGEN HUBERT (HUB...@gawein.physik) wrote:
>[Nazguls' return]
>: You aren't...we were talking about the _fifth_ age. And I would say
that, if in
>: doubt, the GM overrules Eru, though I surely would be interested in a
more
>: detailed explaination...
>
>What the heck is *fifth* age on Middle-Earth? (At least, Nazguls
>do belong to Middle-Earth; and last time I looked they only got
>to number four??)
>
> Ad Astra!
> JuL
>
In the grand tradition of many fantasy worlds. They eventually lose
their
magic and become the Earth as we now it(Continents move apart etc..)
Annoys the heck out of me.
Sea Wasp
In my current campaign, I started with the assumption that our
heroes essentially LOST the War of the Ring... The Ring was
destroyed, but instead of sending the Nazgul in that last-ditch
effort to grab it back, Sauron went himself. As a result, he
was close enough to the Ring when it went up in flames to be
able to grab back some of the power that he'd originally put into
the thing when he forged it. While this temporarily weakened Sauron
(knocking the Nazgul out for a bit, toppling Barad-Dur), in the
end he was better off and much closer to his old level in the
earlier ages. Subsequently he rebuilt and started kicking butts
across the continent. In a rather ironic twist, it was the
rising of several other nasty forces that has permitted any
good guys to continue to exist on the continent at all; Sauron and
these other villains have perforce had to spend much of their
energies dealing with each other, leaving much less to use to
finish off the good guys. Nonetheless, this disaster has led
to a short "dark ages" in which most people lost track of time
and so the campaign begins about 400 - 500 years after the
War of the Ring.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
verkuilen john v
[snipped Alternate ME plot]
One question: one of the main themes present in the books is the gradual
"descent" into normalcy and away from the fantastic. So the First Age,
the age of elves, has lots of really powerful and glorious elves and men,
the Second Age is significantly less glorious--Numenoreans are pretty
impressive but not up to the lofty standards of the First Age, certainly
not to the Noldor exiles, and the Third Age is even less. Evil also becomes
more and more banal, with Melkor/Morgoth "inventing" it but finally being
defeated. Sauron in the Second Age is still a mover and shaker among the
Noldor elves still in exile, but one who basically copied all his moves from
his former boss. By the Third Age, Sauron has, while still amazingly powerful,
pretty much descended into petty copying and doesn't even appear in the book.
Most of the fantastic elements seem to have been bled away by then with
the departure of the elves. Sure the orcs are still around (in much smaller
quantities now that no one is breeding them), as are the dwarves, already
a dwindling race who can never restore their glory in Moria, but much of the
really fantastic/powerful is gone. The dragons are dead, Tom Bombadil and
other forest spirits are confined more and more to small places, the elven
forests are empty and no longer maintained by the power of the Three, etc.
Now I'm not saying that one must consider this theme, but it would seem to
imply that the Fourth Age--the age of men--should be pretty tame as far as the
transcendent evils go.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
idiocy." --John Stuart Mill