Pesach Lattin And The Law
Hitch
Hello.
I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
courthouse. It may interest all of you to know that the enticingly absent
"Exhibit A" is *nothing* but a xerox copy of an alleged e-mail spam, which
does NOT indicate ANY origin with P. Lattin. In fact, all it shows is that
the allegedly offending spam bounced through Lattin's ISP; prior to that
bounce, it went through a known re-mailer server. There is NO return
address or path for Lattin; there is NO indication that he had *anything*
to do with this "spam." This, then, is the ENTIRE and ONLY "Exhibit A."
It should interest all of you to note that despite the claims made in the
press release shown on Stevens Miller's webpage, wherein it is stated that
evidence was procured via court order from Lattin's ISP, none of this -
repeat NO EVIDENCE - whatsoever was attached to the lawsuit.
Moreover, it fascinates me to note that this complaint, in its entirety,
has been posted to not less than 5 newsgroups, all on the 14th of August.
How convenient for the plaintiffs in the lawsuit! It is also peculiar that
at the same time that this lawsuit, utterly absent of any evidence, was
filed, Lattin himself wrote to various individuals and newsgroups when he
started receiving responses to e-mail that he had never sent. I find this
a rare coincidence. I mean, think about it - someone files a lawsuit
alleging that they have suffered nearly One Million Dollars in damages due
to "spamming" in their name(s) by P. Lattin - with no evidence attached,
and, voila, at the same time, numerous e-mail messages and posts, allegedly
from Lattin, start hitting mailboxes and the ngs, along with copies of the
lawsuit being posted to the newsgroups.
We all know how easy it is to arouse the ire of ng posters, and individuals
receiving spam. Myself, I refuse to be *used* by *someone* who is
deliberately attempting to stir up a hornet's nest of resentment against an
individual, when there is *no proof* whatsoever of the alleged activity;
and, worse, when the ngs are used as a public jury with which to hang said
person. If you all want to be used in this way, that is up to you; but all
of this "outrage" and "publicity" seems WAY too convenient for me.
One should also note that the complaint alleged "unfair competition," which
is *really* interesting, as the two sites (www.sff.net and
www.fantasylink.com) do NOT market the same services; sff.net is a
web-presence provider for authors, whereas fantasylink.com (Sphere On-Line
Publications) is free on-line magazines. Outside of the fact that they
appeal to the same readership, they are NOT in the same business; so the
competition allegation is particularly inane, as fantasylink.com does NOT
provide web-presence for authors.
And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
Hitch
Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote in article
<5t4isa$7...@panix2.panix.com>...
> In <5t2ree$5...@root.two14.lan> Cally Soukup <ma...@mcs.com> wrote:
> : Gary Farber (gfa...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> : : FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> : [press release and text of lawsuit]
>
> : I noticed that the lawsuit itself referenced "Exhibit A", the alleged
spam.
> : Neither your posting nor the URL had Exhibit A. Since I seem to be the
only
> : person online who didn't get it (thank Ghu for good spam filters) could
you
> : give me a pointer to it?
>
> It's not online at this time, as far as I know; Stevens?
> --
> -- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
> Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA
>
Tim Byrd
Whatever else may be the case, Lattin has no need of an external
conspiracy to ruin his reputation. He does that quite well all by
himself.
Best,
Tim
*********************************
"You must defend what you love or you will lose your soul."
--Jim Harrison
The Path of the Wolf: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/7792
P Nielsen Hayden
In <33f920d2...@news.demon.co.uk> edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) writes:
>The noble "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> spake on the day of 16 Aug 1997
>21:22:00 -0700:
>
>>Hello.
>>
>>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>>courthouse.
>>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>>
>>Hitch
>
>
>In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
>offense.
What? I'm no defender of Pesach Lattin, but this makes no sense. The
materials in question are in the public record.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
ed
The noble p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) spake on the day of 17 Aug
1997 13:47:07 -0400:
>In <33f920d2...@news.demon.co.uk> edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) writes:
>
>>The noble "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> spake on the day of 16 Aug 1997
>>21:22:00 -0700:
>>>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>>>courthouse.
>>>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>>In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
>>offense.
>
>What? I'm no defender of Pesach Lattin, but this makes no sense. The
>materials in question are in the public record.
Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic, but
I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have been
restricted until the case had been heard.
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
P Nielsen Hayden
>The noble p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) spake on the day of 17 Aug
>1997 13:47:07 -0400:
>
>>In <33f920d2...@news.demon.co.uk> edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) writes:
>>
>>>The noble "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> spake on the day of 16 Aug 1997
>>>21:22:00 -0700:
>
>>>>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>>>>courthouse.
>>>>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>>>In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
>>>offense.
>>
>>What? I'm no defender of Pesach Lattin, but this makes no sense. The
>>materials in question are in the public record.
>
>Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic
Perhaps you should do your supposing _before_ you post accusations like this
to be read by people all over the world.
Terry Austin
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>>What? I'm no defender of Pesach Lattin, but this makes no sense. The
>>materials in question are in the public record.
>
>Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic, but
>I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have been
>restricted until the case had been heard.
Only if the judge decides there is some very compelling reason to do
so, which is quite rare.
---------------------------------
-- Terry Austin, Grand Inquisitor, Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Back from vacation. Busy. Give me a couple of days.
ed
>>Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic
>
>Perhaps you should do your supposing _before_ you post accusations like this
>to be read by people all over the world.
>
>-----
>Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Umm, what you took as a statement was actually a question from which I
omitted the question mark, I was trying to REDUCE an area of ignorance,
not commit an act of one.
Richard Wells
Hitch wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
> "Exhibit A" is *nothing* but a xerox copy of an alleged e-mail spam, which
> does NOT indicate ANY origin with P. Lattin. In fact, all it shows is that
> the allegedly offending spam bounced through Lattin's ISP; prior to that
> bounce, it went through a known re-mailer server. There is NO return
> address or path for Lattin; there is NO indication that he had *anything*
> to do with this "spam." This, then, is the ENTIRE and ONLY "Exhibit A."
>
> It should interest all of you to note that despite the claims made in the
> press release shown on Stevens Miller's webpage, wherein it is stated that
> evidence was procured via court order from Lattin's ISP, none of this -
> repeat NO EVIDENCE - whatsoever was attached to the lawsuit.
>
> Moreover, it fascinates me to note that this complaint, in its entirety,
> has been posted to not less than 5 newsgroups, all on the 14th of August.
> How convenient for the plaintiffs in the lawsuit! It is also peculiar that
> at the same time that this lawsuit, utterly absent of any evidence, was
> filed, Lattin himself wrote to various individuals and newsgroups when he
> started receiving responses to e-mail that he had never sent. I find this
> a rare coincidence. I mean, think about it - someone files a lawsuit
> alleging that they have suffered nearly One Million Dollars in damages due
> to "spamming" in their name(s) by P. Lattin - with no evidence attached,
> and, voila, at the same time, numerous e-mail messages and posts, allegedly
> from Lattin, start hitting mailboxes and the ngs, along with copies of the
> lawsuit being posted to the newsgroups.
Checking through Dejanews, I can find multiple cases of different times
Mr. Lattin has claimed forged emails, even in some cases claiming email
replies to email sent to him was forged. The sheer scope of the
conspiracy Mr. Lattin faces is well most amazing.
>
> We all know how easy it is to arouse the ire of ng posters, and individuals
> receiving spam. Myself, I refuse to be *used* by *someone* who is
> deliberately attempting to stir up a hornet's nest of resentment against an
> individual, when there is *no proof* whatsoever of the alleged activity;
> and, worse, when the ngs are used as a public jury with which to hang said
> person. If you all want to be used in this way, that is up to you; but all
> of this "outrage" and "publicity" seems WAY too convenient for me.
Check out rec.games.frp.misc where Mr. Lattin has been involved in a
long running dispute with another indivual. After Mr. Lattin posted a
note declaring an end to his posting on that issue, Mr. Lattin started a
new thread declaring the other indivual was running a scam. Mr.
Jorgenson's great offense to start this thread: Mr. Jorgenson failed to
post for several weeks during convention season. Mr. Lattin seems no
stranger to the idea of drumming up controvesy for publicity.
>
> One should also note that the complaint alleged "unfair competition," which
> is *really* interesting, as the two sites (www.sff.net and
> www.fantasylink.com) do NOT market the same services; sff.net is a
> web-presence provider for authors, whereas fantasylink.com (Sphere On-Line
> Publications) is free on-line magazines. Outside of the fact that they
> appeal to the same readership, they are NOT in the same business; so the
> competition allegation is particularly inane, as fantasylink.com does NOT
> provide web-presence for authors.
Mr. Lattin did send me emails proclaiming the evils of a different
publisher of a paid fanzine competitor. Of course, Mr. Lattin claimed
that they were not really a competitor because of the difference in
sales volume. And fantasylink has advertised itself as the web presence
for a number of authors, including Allan Cole.
>
> And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>
> Hitch
>
ed
>Hello.
>
>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>courthouse.
>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>
>Hitch
In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
offense.
ed
Lizard
On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:21:43 GMT, edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>The noble "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> spake on the day of 16 Aug 1997
>21:22:00 -0700:
>
>>Hello.
>>
>>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>>courthouse.
>>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>>
>>Hitch
>
>
>In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
>offense.
I don't think so. Documents entered into evidence are usually
publically available, unless they've been sealed, which requires a
judges approval. Depositions, etc, are almost always available to
anyone who wants to view them, except in rare cases.
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice;
Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue:AuH20
http://www.mrlizard.com
Bob Webber
ed (edh...@equus.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: The noble p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden) spake on the day of 17 Aug
: 1997 13:47:07 -0400:
: >What? I'm no defender of Pesach Lattin, but this makes no sense. The
: >materials in question are in the public record.
: Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic, but
: I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have been
: restricted until the case had been heard.
Based on Scots Law you probably also would have thought that the
attorneys' habit of allowing themselves interviews, the press's
habit of disclosing evidence, and candid books by jurors about
their perceptions of the trial and verdict would be beyond
the pale. Not so in the US.
And in this case "Exhibit A" is the document purported to have
been sent, not evidence to be used in proving the document's
provenance. I think the equivalent thing would be refusal
to release the corpse until the case had been heard.
Bob
Podkayne Fries
On 17 Aug 1997 13:47:07 -0400, p...@panix.com (P Nielsen Hayden)
wrote:
>>21:22:00 -0700:
>>
>>>Hello.
>>>
>>>I sent a friend of mine to get a copy of the alleged "Exhibit A" from the
>>>courthouse.
>>>And, in case anyone is wondering, NO, I am NOT Mr. Lattin's attorney.
>>>
>>>Hitch
>>
>>
>>In that case surely your friend and you are committing some kind of
>>offense.
>
>materials in question are in the public record.
>
AFAIK, one can also get copies through the mail. I've done this
primarily on Ohio, but friends have requested and received copies
of Court documents in other states.
If you *really* want a copy of the lawsuit, write or call the
Clerk of Courts and ask how much they charge for copying the
documents. Many Courts charge a dollar a page. Send the Clerk a
money order and a 9 x 12 self-addressed stamped envelope and
you'll get your copy in a week or so.
Regards, Podkayne Fries
--
Every time you forward spam to Postmaster@host,
an angel gets its wings.
Lance Tracy
>AFAIK, one can also get copies through the mail. I've done this
>primarily on Ohio, but friends have requested and received copies
>of Court documents in other states.
>If you *really* want a copy of the lawsuit, write or call the
>Clerk of Courts and ask how much they charge for copying the
>documents. Many Courts charge a dollar a page. Send the Clerk a
>money order and a 9 x 12 self-addressed stamped envelope and
>you'll get your copy in a week or so.
Let's try something constructive. Let's reduce the tabloid fascination
rec.games.frp.misc. has with the antics of Pesach and Dana and do me a
favor. I have recently become Chief Editor of Sphere Online
Publications and I am, understandably concerned about the allegations
that have been posted across the USENET regarding the publisher of
Sphere Online Publications. In response, I would like suggest one
thing to the members of the newsgroups that have been blanketed with
this negative information. That one thing would be that there are a
number of hard-working individuals, such as the Editors that support
the individual zines and pages that comprise Sphere, who have little
contact or influence with or over the publisher, Pesach Lattin.
These guys have worked diligently to create a website that will
communicate their love of Fantasy and Gaming. The vision we have of
Sphere is to provide those who are interested with a place to go find
news, information, and discussion about the authors, games, and books
that they like.
I could be wrong, but I really don't think rec.games.frp.misc. is the
place to post a legal document that could damage the work these guys
have put into the site. Given, it might be relevant on an industry NG,
but not in a blanket post to every NG that has anything remotely to do
with fantasy or gaming.
My suggestion would be that, if you would like to trash Pesach, send
it to him directly and allow him to address your questions and/or
concerns. If you want to comment about the site, come to our page at
www.fantasylink.com (our temporary jumpsite), check out our setup and
address your comments and concerns to the editors of those
publications. This will allow the Sphere staff to address the specific
concerns you have about the content or presentation of our site in a
way that will make it more useful to our subscribers.
Thank you.
Lance Tracy
Chief Editor
Sphere Online Publications
Terry Austin
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>Umm, what you took as a statement was actually a question from which I
>omitted the question mark, I was trying to REDUCE an area of ignorance,
>not commit an act of one.
>
Um. ed, buddy, pal, chum...
"Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic,
but I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have
been restricted until the case had been heard?" doesn't really make
sense as a question. It's actually a fairly declarative statement.
ed
>edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>
>>Umm, what you took as a statement was actually a question from which I
>>omitted the question mark, I was trying to REDUCE an area of ignorance,
>>not commit an act of one.
>>
>Um. ed, buddy, pal, chum...
>
>"Well I suppose American Law may differ from Scots Law on this topic,
>but I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have
>been restricted until the case had been heard?" doesn't really make
>sense as a question. It's actually a fairly declarative statement.
It was a statement on a Orevious post which had been snipped. The
question started "Surely .." and I was under the, mistaken, impression
that evidence would have been kept confidential until the case was
heard except to both legal teams.
I am, however, incorrect in that, but I was asking a question.
ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
REMOVE "meatblock" from reply to address. Sorry, SPAMers got to me
J. McGuire
Richard Wells wrote:
>
> Check out rec.games.frp.misc where Mr. Lattin has been involved in a
> long running dispute with another indivual. After Mr. Lattin posted a
> note declaring an end to his posting on that issue, Mr. Lattin started a
> new thread declaring the other indivual was running a scam. Mr.
> Jorgenson's great offense to start this thread: Mr. Jorgenson failed to
> post for several weeks during convention season. Mr. Lattin seems no
> stranger to the idea of drumming up controvesy for publicity.
Something of perhaps more than minor interest involving Mr. Jorgenson:
Some time ago, I volunteered to review games for Sphere. Hey, I'm a
gamer, and I'll go to the usual lengths to score free game goodies. As a
result of this, I began receiving threats of criminal and civil action
from Mr. Jorgenson, apparently related to his accusation that Mr. Lattin
had copied some of the information from his (Mr. Jorgenson's) links page
on his website.
Various things that came out of that whole incident landed Mr. Lattin as
well as Mr. Jorgenson in my email bounce-file -- and I have no intention
of ever speaking to either of them ever again -- but I might point out
that Mr. Jorgenson is *not* anything like an innocent party in this
whole matter. You tell me: What kind of person would send baseless
threats of criminal prosecution to people connected only by volunteering
as a reviewer for someone that he claims lifted something from his web
page? Or claim FBI involvement in a case which, to the best of anyone's
knowledge, the FBI was not in any way connected with? Not an innocent
party to the whole matter, at least not in my eyes.
[followups set to the one newsgroup this might actually belong on]
-- Jean
"Quae narravi, nullo modo negabo!"
Wintertree Software | remember to remove the spambot-blocker
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft | from my address before replying via email
Fight back with your wallet: *PLEASE DON'T FEED THE SPAMMERS*
Seth Breidbart
In article <33faf9a8...@news.artnet.net>,
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>
>>Umm, what you took as a statement was actually a question from which I
>>omitted the question mark, I was trying to REDUCE an area of ignorance,
>>not commit an act of one.
>
>but I would have thought materials deposited with the Court would have
>been restricted until the case had been heard?" doesn't really make
>sense as a question. It's actually a fairly declarative statement.
This is Usenet. As is well-known, the best way to find out about
something is not to ask a question, but to post incorrect information.
Seth
Ed Dravecky III
ed (edh...@equus.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Umm, what you took as a statement was actually a question from
> which I omitted the question mark, I was trying to REDUCE an
> area of ignorance, not commit an act of one.
In that case, when you wrote...
> In that case surely your friend and you are committing some
> kind of offense.
...you were making a statement by saying "you are" instead of
asking "are you" (even with "surely" qualifying the whole mess).
I think you could see that stating "You are sober." is quite
different than asking "Are you sober?", even if you leave off
the punctuation. (And that about concludes our session.)
--
Ed Dravecky * Dallas Texas = This sigfile has been constructed
dsheldon(at)netcom(dot)com = of post-consumer recycled photons
David E Romm
> Every time you forward spam to Postmaster@host,
> an angel gets its wings.
Stolen for lino/.sig file.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
Saturday 8/23 6pm: The 1994 Minicon Opening Ceremonies
T Nielsen Hayden
In rec.arts.sf.fandom J. McGuire <jmcg...@wtsoft.REMOVE.ME.com> wrote:
> Richard Wells wrote:
> >
> > Check out rec.games.frp.misc where Mr. Lattin has been involved in a
> > long running dispute with another indivual. After Mr. Lattin posted a
> > note declaring an end to his posting on that issue, Mr. Lattin started a
> > new thread declaring the other indivual was running a scam. Mr.
> Something of perhaps more than minor interest involving Mr. Jorgenson:
> Some time ago, I volunteered to review games for Sphere. (...)
> I began receiving threats of criminal and civil action
> from Mr. Jorgenson, apparently related to his accusation that Mr. Lattin
> had copied some of the information from his (Mr. Jorgenson's) links page
> on his website.
> Various things that came out of that whole incident landed Mr. Lattin as
> well as Mr. Jorgenson in my email bounce-file -- and I have no intention
> of ever speaking to either of them ever again -- but I might point out
> that Mr. Jorgenson is *not* anything like an innocent party in this
> whole matter.
Even total jerks can be treated unjustly. (Not meaning you, Mr. McGuire.)
Though they do get a subnormal amount of sympathy when it happens, which
is a consolation.
::tnh::
::fwa::
Larry D. Hols
T Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> Even total jerks can be treated unjustly. (Not meaning you, Mr. McGuire.)
> Though they do get a subnormal amount of sympathy when it happens, which
> is a consolation.
Um, _Ms._ McGuire. She bakes wonderful cookies, too!
Larry
Terry Austin
I still think they're the same person. I can't tell 'em apart without
checking the From field.
Podkayne Fries
On 18 Aug 1997 14:57:07 GMT, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
>In article <33f755e5...@news3.ee.net>, ch...@magnacom.net wrote:
>
>> Every time you forward spam to Postmaster@host,
>> an angel gets its wings.
>
>Stolen for lino/.sig file.
>--
<LOL> Use it in good health. I wrote it and have happily given it
to several different people. I'm always tickled when I see that
someone has stolen it. All my other really good .sigs were swiped
from someone else.
Regards, Podkayne Fries
--
Born to count beans.
ed
On 18 Aug 1997 22:15:32 -0400, se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:
>This is Usenet. As is well-known, the best way to find out about
>something is not to ask a question, but to post incorrect information.
>
Thanks for the advice. If I ever have a rule query I may use this
principle eg "In GURPS you execute a contest of skills by hitting each
other with bladders on a stick, one bladder for each point of skill.
The last person with intact bladders wins."
And wait for the corrections that will solve mt problems.
Cheers
Tim Byrd
> Your misinformation has been corrected.
>
> Dana Jorgensen
> Alternate Realities Publications
>
Well, who better to correct it than a master of misinformation like
yourself?
--
DJorgen104
>Well, who better to correct it than a master of misinformation like
>yourself?
Oh, and what misinformation might that be?
Tim Byrd
DJorgen104 wrote:
Actually, never mind. Forget I was here. Forget I allowed myself to get
drawn even a bit into this petulant, immature, whining, bullshit flame
war that you seem to have dedicated yourself to.
One bit of advice, though: the more you try to make Lattin look bad
here, the worse you look. And vice versa, of course.
J. McGuire
Actually, just to totally complicate matters, it's my _husband_ who
bakes the chocolate chip cookies for conventions! 8-)
(though he's not Mr. McGuire either)
David E Romm
Thanks. The problem always remains: How much credit to give to you? Do
I just note the sentence down unattributed? Do I just use the line
unattributed but keep your name in my files, in case someone asks? Do I
quote the line and ascribe it to you?
Various people have asked for (and received) permission to use one of my
lines, and I usually ask for credit 'someplace'. Unless the line is from
Shockwave or otherwise needs to be attributed to me to make the line work,
a stand-alone line makes a better .sig and I'm loathe to disturb the flow
of discourse for mere egoboo.
But then again, how much is egoboo merely 'mere'?
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
"You are the audience. I am the writer. I OUTRANK you."
-- Kenneth Mars, The Producers
Incanus
ed <edh...@equus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >This is Usenet. As is well-known, the best way to find out about
> >something is not to ask a question, but to post incorrect information.
> >
>
> Thanks for the advice. If I ever have a rule query I may use this
> principle eg "In GURPS you execute a contest of skills by hitting each
> other with bladders on a stick, one bladder for each point of skill.
> The last person with intact bladders wins."
>
> And wait for the corrections that will solve mt problems.
Now *that* would be a fun way of gaming. But you should have to play in
bthing suits and use waterproof rulebooks. :)
--
Incanus: inc...@bigfoot.com
http://incanus.home.ml.org/
Xiphias Gladius
inc...@bigfoot.com (Incanus) writes:
>ed <edh...@equus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
And the other thing, is that this would avoid Rule Of Sixteen silliness,
and would work better for skills over 25. . .
- Ian
Tim Breen
> You are hereby ordered to remove any and all hypertext links to Alternate
> Realities Publications' online sites immediately. Failure to do so will
> result in formal legal action. You have 24 hours to comply.
We all realize that there is no basis for legal action here, right? That
anyone can freely put links on their own pages to ANYONE else's pages
without limit? Good, I thought so.
> You are not authorized
> to post any materials published by Alternate Realities Publications, nor are
> you authorized to reprint any articles appearing in their magazine.
This seems okay, to the extent that ARP actually owns the copyrights on
the material published. If they don't own the copyright (i.e., if they
had only "first publication" rights) then it's none of their business.
> Furthermore, any further contact with the online hosts of the websites
> maintained by Alternate Realities Publications, said hosts currently being
> RPGnet and America Online Inc., will be construed by both civil and criminal
> courts as attempts to eliminate the online presense and advertising
> capabilities of Alternate Realities Publications, thereby representing a
> willful act to cause financial harm to both Alternate Realities Publications
> and Mr. D. Jorgensen.
THIS is actually pretty amusing, if the person who wrote it actually
believed it. Imagine! If you have "any further contact" with America
Online, you could be subject to criminal penalties! Oh, how I'd like to
enforce THAT! <evil grin>
> This is your first and final notice in this matter. Disregard will result in
> prompt and swift legal action in both civil and criminal court.
That action, most likely, being listed as "complainant laughed out of
court." <g>
> This message will be posted once daily until we recieve response from you
> acknowledging receipt of this letter, and admission of your intention to
> adhere to it.
So much for "first and final notice," I suppose.
> By your involvement with www.fantasylink.com, you may be named as an
> co-defendant in the civil suits and as an accessory to Mr. lattin's crimes
> once formal federal charges have been filed by the FBI.
Now THIS sentence may itself be an actionable offense. That is, the
person who sent this letter may be held liable for any damages to
"www.fantasylink.com" or those who received the letter and acted on the
material it contained. I'm glad _I_ didn't write it! Whoever did ought
to see a competent attorney *at once* if the matter hasn't already blown
over.
-- Tim (not a lawyer but is fond of studying copyright and trademark
issues)
Personal: http://personalweb.lightside.com/Pfiles/breen1.html
Gaming: http://www.rpga.org/Home.html
To subscribe to the RPGA-Talk mailing list, send a blank message to
requ...@lists.consultantalliance.com with a subject of "subscribe
RPGA-Talk" (no quotes) or "subscribe digest RPGA-Talk" for the digest
version.
Paul Mason
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Paul Mason
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cGFudXJnZQ0KDQo=
Terry Austin
se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:
>This is Usenet. As is well-known, the best way to find out about
>something is not to ask a question, but to post incorrect information.
>
It's also a pretty good way to being on the creative namecalling,
although rAndom caPitaLization works better.
DJorgen104
>> Some time ago, I volunteered to review games for Sphere. (...)
>> I began receiving threats of criminal and civil action
>> from Mr. Jorgenson, apparently related to his accusation that Mr.
Lattin
>> had copied some of the information from his (Mr. Jorgenson's) links
page
>> on his website.
Ahem. The cease-and-desist notice simply stated that Sphere publications
was in no way permitted to publish anything involving my products. The cc:
to all the staff members was to inform them of that fact as well so that
they might know what there 'boss' was up to.
As for the links page, Lattin copied, word-for-word, right down to the
mistakes, various links pages from RPGnet, then slapped his own copyright
notice on them. he took someone else's work and research and put his own
name on it, like he spent the hours hunting down the information. He is a
thief of intellectual property, pure and simple. In fact, I have even
discovered where he stole his format and other links pages as well.
Your misinformation has been corrected.
Dana Jorgensen
Alternate Realities Publications
You were expecting something cute here?
Well, you're WRONG!
;P
J. McGuire
DJorgen104 wrote:
>
> >> Some time ago, I volunteered to review games for Sphere. (...)
> >> I began receiving threats of criminal and civil action
> >> from Mr. Jorgenson, apparently related to his accusation that Mr.
> Lattin
> >> had copied some of the information from his (Mr. Jorgenson's) links
> page
> >> on his website.
>
> Ahem. The cease-and-desist notice simply stated that Sphere publications
> was in no way permitted to publish anything involving my products. The cc:
> to all the staff members was to inform them of that fact as well so that
> they might know what there 'boss' was up to.
OKAY, this does it. I don't post personal email -- but I also don't
consider threats to be in the realm of 'personal email'. Here's the
whole thing, with some comments added at the end -- let's let people
judge for themselves:
> >Return-Path: <DJorg...@aol.com>
> From: <DJorg...@aol.com>
> Errors-To: <DJorg...@aol.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:24:17 -0400 (EDT)
> To: edi...@fantasylink.com, fante...@fantasylink.com, got...@fantasylink.com,
> alm...@usa.net, pub...@fantasylink.com, jwt...@gold.interlog.com,
> ck...@eagle.wbm.ca, Pow...@logica.com, lip...@atlantic.net,
> je...@ionet.net, kar...@crl.com, dha...@dhampir.com,
> jalm...@wco.com, tla...@magick.net, shsi...@hotmail.com,
> r...@fantasylink.com, night...@earthlink.net, edgi...@erinet.com,
> jmcg...@wtsoft.com, jfor...@wvu.edu, jl...@webtv.net,
> lan...@mindspring.com, Radi...@aol.com, rho...@mnsi.net,
> li...@fantasylink.com
> Subject: Cease and Desist Notice.
>
> The following notice was served to your publisher, who promptly refused any
> and all compliance with the notice. Please read through it carefully.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> This official message is being posted in accordance with Intsructions by my
> lawyer and the FBI:
>
>
> To: Sphere, Sphere Fantasy Resources, Sphere Fantasy, and all other
> entities, business or otherwise, associated with the web sites located at
> http://www.fantasylink.com
> ATTN: Mr., Ms., and/or Mrs. Pesach Lattin (assumption hereby being Mr. due to
> lack of evidence of gender)
>
> From: Alternate Realities Publications, Mr. D. Jorgensen, Owner
>
>
> Mr. Pesach Lattin,
>
> You are hereby ordered to remove any and all hypertext links to Alternate
> Realities Publications' online sites immediately. Failure to do so will
> result in formal legal action. You have 24 hours to comply.
>
> Furthermore, This is also a cease-and-desist notice. You are not authorized
> to post any materials published by Alternate Realities Publications, nor are
> you authorized to reprint any articles appearing in their magazine. This
> notice also covers derivative works. Failure to adhere to this notice will
> result in civil legal action, as well as possible pursuance of action for
> potentially criminal activity.
>
> We do acknowledge the rights of individual authors of the magazine articles
> to choose to republish their articles on your web site if they so wish, even
> if it may be against the Wishes of Alternate Realities Publications. They
> have ben notified to instruct us of such choices in order to prevent any
> unnecessary problems such choices would reult in if left unannounced.
>
> Properties held by Alternate Realities Publications include the World of
> Barador Roleplaying Game system and its attendant books, novels, short
> stories suppliments and all other companion material; The Legionnaire
> Campaign Card Game, including all card images, and rules; The Supernatural
> DemonSlayer graphic novel and its companion Fuzion-based Roleplaying Game
> material,as well as supporting future material , including the Soldier Gals
> and Law and Disorder graphic novels and supporting roleplaying suppliments.
> Additionally, covered also are any software developed around the concepts
> presented in these peoperties, be they of a mechanical nature such as that
> provide by the rules systems or descriptive in nature, such as the background
> setting information. This notice also includes any and all future
> publications of Alternate Realities Publications.
>
> Furthermore, any further contact with the online hosts of the websites
> maintained by Alternate Realities Publications, said hosts currently being
> RPGnet and America Online Inc., will be construed by both civil and criminal
> courts as attempts to eliminate the online presense and advertising
> capabilities of Alternate Realities Publications, thereby representing a
> willful act to cause financial harm to both Alternate Realities Publications
> and Mr. D. Jorgensen.
>
> This is your first and final notice in this matter. Disregard will result in
> prompt and swift legal action in both civil and criminal court.
>
> This message will be posted once daily until we recieve response from you
> acknowledging receipt of this letter, and admission of your intention to
> adhere to it. Failure to acknowledge and submit to this letter within 2 days
> will result in it being mailed to your entire staff to notify them of this
> order, thereby granting them the ability to limit their liability in any
> violations of this order.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> This notice has been posted to you to inform you of the situation so that you
> may take steps to limit your involvement and liability in this matter. Your
> continued association with this site may make you an accessory to not only
> the civil cases of copyright violation, but also to a pending criminal
> investigation for attempted corporate sabotage that Mr. Lattin has committed,
> by attempting to have my web sites shut down. He is a competitor of my
> magazine that has made a willful and hostile attempt to eliminate my online
> presense, which is a violation of various civil and criminal stautes of the
> Fedral corporate law codes and the Sherman anti-trust bill, as well as the
> possible commission of a computer crime and violation of an assortment of FCC
> regulations and local laws as well.
>
> By your involvement with www.fantasylink.com, you may be named as an
> co-defendant in the civil suits and as an accessory to Mr. lattin's crimes
> once formal federal charges have been filed by the FBI.
>
> I hope you consider these implications carefully and make a wise decision to
> remain amongst the innocent, rather than become one of the guilty.
>
> Please email a reply so that we know you have received this document.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dana Jorgensen
> Alternate Realities Publications.
>
I'm not going to go into all of the details, such as the mysteriously
missing FBI involvement (since they don't investigate copyright
violations...it's a civil matter...I suppose it's not so mysterious) or
exactly what the Sherman Anti-Trust Act is (it prohibits 'combinations
in restraint of trade' -- i.e., cartels). But some of the text above
directly contradicts Mr. Jorgenson's statements in the message to which
I am replying.
Please pay particular attention to the following two excerpts from the
above:
> Your
> continued association with this site may make you an accessory to not only
> the civil cases of copyright violation, but also to a pending criminal
> investigation for attempted corporate sabotage that Mr. Lattin has committed,
...and...
> By your involvement with www.fantasylink.com, you may be named as an
> co-defendant in the civil suits and as an accessory to Mr. lattin's crimes
> once formal federal charges have been filed by the FBI.
>
> I hope you consider these implications carefully and make a wise decision to
> remain amongst the innocent, rather than become one of the guilty.
Now, that seems to directly contradict "The cc: to all the staff members
was to inform them of that fact as well so that they might know what
there 'boss' was up to," as Mr. Jorgenson said in the very message that
I am replying to.
"...you may be named as a co-defendant...and as an accessory..." sure
looks like a legal threat from where I stand. (not to mention, of
course, that I wasn't a staff member, nor was Mr. Lattin my boss)
> As for the links page, Lattin copied, word-for-word, right down to the
> mistakes, various links pages from RPGnet, then slapped his own copyright
> notice on them. he took someone else's work and research and put his own
> name on it, like he spent the hours hunting down the information. He is a
> thief of intellectual property, pure and simple. In fact, I have even
> discovered where he stole his format and other links pages as well.
First of all, I couldn't give a flying whistle. I might have, before you
started threatening me, but I certainly don't now. "Hey, this guy lifted
stuff from my website!" would have been a lot more effective than
"You're going to be prosecuted for associating with him."
Second, I've seen both pages. They don't look even similar to me, at the
HTML level.
Third, a listing of URLs isn't copyrightable -- by you, or Mr. Lattin,
or anyone else. The phone company found this out when third-party
companies started selling phone books and they tried to stop it.
But, most importantly, that has NOTHING to do with the situation anyway.
Mr. Lattin could have stolen every single page of his website from you,
and I *still* would not be "among the guilty" for volunteering to review
games for him. In fact, NOBODY except Mr. Lattin would be guilty.
Period.
> Your misinformation has been corrected.
YOUR misinformation has been corrected.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Thanks for the advice. If I ever have a rule query I may use this
> principle eg "In GURPS you execute a contest of skills by hitting each
> other with bladders on a stick, one bladder for each point of skill.
> The last person with intact bladders wins."
Actually, that *is* how one resolves a contest of skills in GURPS...
--
To respond via email, remove non-licit characters to change my site to "cornell.edu".
Who is this goober, anyway? You can find out a little at:
Podkayne Fries
On 19 Aug 1997 15:02:41 GMT, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
>In article <33f8a04f...@news3.ee.net>, ch...@magnacom.net wrote:
>> On 18 Aug 1997 14:57:07 GMT, ro...@visi.com (David E Romm) wrote:
>> >In article <33f755e5...@news3.ee.net>, ch...@magnacom.net wrote:
>> >
>> >> Every time you forward spam to Postmaster@host,
>> >> an angel gets its wings.
>> >
>> >Stolen for lino/.sig file.
>> >--
>>
>> <LOL> Use it in good health. I wrote it and have happily given it
>> to several different people. I'm always tickled when I see that
>> someone has stolen it. All my other really good .sigs were swiped
>> from someone else.
>
>Thanks. The problem always remains: How much credit to give to you? Do
>I just note the sentence down unattributed? Do I just use the line
>unattributed but keep your name in my files, in case someone asks? Do I
>quote the line and ascribe it to you?
>
>Various people have asked for (and received) permission to use one of my
>lines, and I usually ask for credit 'someplace'. Unless the line is from
>Shockwave or otherwise needs to be attributed to me to make the line work,
>a stand-alone line makes a better .sig and I'm loathe to disturb the flow
>of discourse for mere egoboo.
>
>But then again, how much is egoboo merely 'mere'?
>--
Well, I'm awfully confused. I've never had this subject come up
before! Obviously, you can't credit me by nick or Heinlein fans
everywhere would clobber you. You can't use my True Name because
I'd rather keep it off Usenet.
How about this - use it as a standalone .sig, but keep my name in
your files. I would like to know if anyone else uses it, but
that's only because I wrote it and I think it's kind of cute.
Regards, Podkayne Fries
--
DJorgen104
>But, most importantly, that has NOTHING to do with the situation anyway.
>Mr. Lattin could have stolen every single page of his website from you,
>and I *still* would not be "among the guilty" for volunteering to review
>games for him. In fact, NOBODY except Mr. Lattin would be guilty.
Now, if you took the entire thing into context at once, instead of in
context paragraph-by-paragraph, it says :
You create a derivative of my work and publish it through Sphere
Publications, you become an accessory. You didn't do that, so there was no
threat of lawsuit against you specifically.
Now, as for the FBI, its still undecided if email falls under federal law
and their jurisdiction ( in my case, it was decided it was not, though
they'll damn well be hearing from me again if they decide in Samsung's
case that it is) As for violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust act, Lattin
willfully attempted to destroy a portion of my business, i.e. internet
commerce he called both RPGnet and AOL, claiming I was a spammer and they
had to shut down my accounts immediately. He also impersonated an AOL
employee to provide fraudulent information about my account. That is an
attempted restriction of trade by a direct competitor. You were working
for that competitor at that time and it was not known the depth of your,
or any other volunteer's, involvement in the decisions made to that end (
while I know you had nothing to do with it, there are several 'volunteers'
on the Sphere staff who can be assumed to have fair input into Lattin's
activities). That letter was entirely reasonable on my behalf in light of
Lattin's activities and the lack of details into the operation of his
'enterprise'.
Bruce Baugh
In article <01bcad56$daca1240$ec14a5ce@hitch>, Hitch wrote:
> *HOW,* exactly (according to the press release by Mr. Miller, Esq., counsel
> for plaintiffs), did Mr. Miller obtain a court order to open Lattin's ISP
> records *before* a lawsuit was filed? HELLOOO? Does this bother *anybody*
> out there? All of you who are familiar with privacy laws, and the Federal
No, it doesn't. And I'm a genuine anarchist, who believes in the
fundamental undesirability of all coercive institutions and the
desirability of minimizing the role of coercion in our lives.
_Someone_ forged the names of the (IMHO, very fine) folks who run
SFF.Net to e-mail spam. This did direct and demonstrable economic
harm, and also injury to their reputations on- and offline. Anyone
with experience reading headers could, and they did, trace it back to
a particular ISP. And previous exchanges provided good reason to
suspect a particular user at that site. Getting a court order at this
point was, I hope, a straightforward matter.
I'm a firm believer in privacy. But there should be no expectation of
privacy for the inflicting of harm on others. It is right and proper
that the ISP be required to provide information about, according to
Stevens' press release, the particular messages in question, and them
alone. Assuming that that info did in fact confirm Pesach's sending of
those messages, then a lawsuit is a right and proper next step.
> to answer. Period. Soooo...HOW did this alleged court order occur? Under
I assume that you're Pesach, since you've been unwilling or unable to
provide any evidence that you've got any independent existence. If
you're not, adjust pronouncs below to suit.
JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU?
This is a clear-cut allegation of forgery or other fraud in the
process. That's actionable. Do you EVER stop to think about the
consequences of such things? Ye gods, I hope you get nailed hard - the
world has enough problems without this sort of sleazoid conduct.
--
Bruce Baugh |
ari...@eyrie.org |
"I am what I know, a glacier made from layers of history's snow"
Marcus L. Rowland
In article <01bcad56$daca1240$ec14a5ce@hitch>, Hitch
>*HOW,* exactly (according to the press release by Mr. Miller, Esq., counsel
>for plaintiffs), did Mr. Miller obtain a court order to open Lattin's ISP
>records *before* a lawsuit was filed? HELLOOO? Does this bother *anybody*
>out there? All of you who are familiar with privacy laws, and the Federal
>serious bell-ringing in your heads?
This message, copied from r.a.sf.f may answer your question:
----------------------------------
Path: news.demon.co.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!feed1.news.erols.co
m!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!mrw
From: awnb...@panix.com (Michael R Weholt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Electronic Privacy...WAS Pesach...
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:50:57 GMT
Organization: Rookery Prawl
Message-ID: <5tei84$o...@news1.panix.com>
References: <5t9i8l$45v$1...@news1.atlantic.net> <19970819122501.IAA15822@l
adder02.news.aol.com> <01bcad50$75b7cce0$ec14a5ce@hitch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mrw.dialup.access.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01
X-No-Archive: Yes
Lines: 38
Xref: demon rec.arts.sf.fandom:59984
In article <01bcad50$75b7cce0$ec14a5ce@hitch>,
"Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
----8><---
>Actually, while we're at it, I have another question: without having
>*already* filed a suit against Lattin, how did Mr. Miller, Esq., obtain a
>court order to open the ISP's files, and look at Lattin's records, as
>alleged in the press release?
Actually, what the press release says is:
"When that ISP refused to reveal the name of the author of the forged
spam without a court order, Macdonald and Dwight hired an attorney. A
court order was obtained, and the ISP's records were released. Based
on those records, and upon related investigations, Macdonald and
Dwight have brought their suit against Lattin, naming him as the
sender of the spam transmission of April 13, 1997."
The only way to read this, in my view, is that the order was
obtained not to "look at Lattin's records", but rather to look at
those portions of the ISP's records which would indicate who sent the
spam transmission. I trust this crucial distinction is clear to you?
The order was not aimed at Lattin, it was aimed at the ISP. If
Lattin's name emerged as a result of that order, then I guess all of
that will have to be sorted out by the litigation.
----8><----
>Does the thought disturb *anyone* else that a lawyer - anyone's lawyer -
>and NOT a law-enforcement agency, could obtain a court order, *without you
>knowing about it*, to obtain your ISP's files on you? It damn sure
>disturbs me.
See above. The order apparently was directed at the ISP in
order to discover *who* sent the spam, not to let anybody paw through
a particular user's files.
--
mrw
----------------------------------
Hope this helps.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
Hitch
Dear Mr. Rowland:
As you are, it appears, located in the UK, you are probably not intimately
familiar with the legal process in the US. *Regardless* of whether or not
the intent was to obtain the ISP's records, or Lattin's records, there has
to be cause. Moreover, the *distinction* _must_ be made IN COURT. And, as
the alleged "Exhibit A" shows, the alleged spam passed through Lattin's
server, nothing more. US privacy laws regarding Electronic Communications
are *far* more stringent in protection of the entity AND the individual
than those in the UK (I have UK clients, so am *moderately* conversant with
your privacy laws.)
You conveniently <snipped> the portion wherein I discussed the distinction
between obtaining a court order against the ISP, versus an individual.
Again, I will ask a simple question: since Mr. Miller, Esq., has *already*
posted, to his website, (which has been posted far and wide to ngs) the
"complaint" and the "press release," why not post the Court Order? It,
too, is public record....that should resolve the matter.
Hitch
Marcus L. Rowland <mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<zG6NcHAU...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>...
Argent_...@rocketmail.com
In article <33fe8453...@news.demon.co.uk>,
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> On 18 Aug 1997 22:15:32 -0400, se...@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) wrote:
>
> >This is Usenet. As is well-known, the best way to find out about
> >something is not to ask a question, but to post incorrect information.
> >
>
> principle eg "In GURPS you execute a contest of skills by hitting each
> other with bladders on a stick, one bladder for each point of skill.
> The last person with intact bladders wins."
>
>
>
> ed
Sounds like an interesting set of house rules.
How about "Each person chug a brew. The last person with an intact
bladder wins.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Hitch
Dear Mr. Baugh:
For the last time...I am NOT Pesach Lattin. I am NOT CV Lattin. I am NOT
any incarnation of Mr. Lattin whatsoever....I have *already* posted, twice,
that I am well-familiar to the ng, alt.fan.dune; I have been posting there
for years; traditionally, it is the only ng to which I post. I am over 40;
I own my own business; it is not *remotely* connected with fantasy, sci-fi,
games, books, authors, etc.; it is connected to the law. Period. That I
choose NOT to "identify myself" to do naught more than satisfy your
curiousity is your problem, not mine. I *am*, however, known - as a *real*
person - to several best-selling authors; this is simply a matter of
coincidence. Moreover, as I said in a post last night, on this ng, it is
explicitly clear to anyone with an IQ above room temperature that *my*
writing style, syntax, grammar, spelling, etc., is *dramatically* different
than Lattin's; please, do not continue to be absurd.
As for the "meat" of your post, I have interspersed comments, below.
Hitch
Bruce Baugh <ari...@eyrie.org> wrote in article
<slrn5vmahf....@eyrie.org>...
> In article <01bcad56$daca1240$ec14a5ce@hitch>, Hitch wrote:
>
> > *HOW,* exactly (according to the press release by Mr. Miller, Esq.,
counsel
> > for plaintiffs), did Mr. Miller obtain a court order to open Lattin's
ISP
> > records *before* a lawsuit was filed? HELLOOO? Does this bother
*anybody*
> > out there? All of you who are familiar with privacy laws, and the
Federal
>
> No, it doesn't. And I'm a genuine anarchist, who believes in the
> fundamental undesirability of all coercive institutions and the
> desirability of minimizing the role of coercion in our lives.
Good for you, at least, so far.
>
> _Someone_ forged the names of the (IMHO, very fine) folks who run
> SFF.Net to e-mail spam. This did direct and demonstrable economic
> harm, and also injury to their reputations on- and offline. Anyone
> with experience reading headers could, and they did, trace it back to
> a particular ISP. And previous exchanges provided good reason to
> suspect a particular user at that site. Getting a court order at this
> point was, I hope, a straightforward matter.
No. Someone *allegedly* sent a spam which was attributable to
"y...@greyware.com." First: This is *not* the same, legally, as forging
someone's name, whether you like it or not. Misappropriation of a person's
name, likeness, or commercial "value" is only a tortious act IF AND WHEN
that person establishes IN COURT that that name, likeness, or whatever
*actually* had commercial value, and was well-known, OR *legally
trademarked." So far, under the law, e-mail addresses are *exempt* from
receiving copyright protections, in that they are considered "information,"
(like a phone number). Mr. Miller is attempting to establish, IMHO, a
"common-law" trademark for "y...@greyware.com." IMHO, again, this will be
an uphill legal battle. The Plaintiffs will have to PROVE that
"y...@greyware.com" IS a commonly-recognized "symbol" - and, should it be
that only a small group of posters/fans recognize it, well.....
Secondly, no, it is *not* a straightforward matter to simply march into
court with an "e-mail" that POINTS to a specific ISP and obtain a court
order without a lawsuit. Regardless of Lattin. This WAS the point of my
post; perhaps I did not make it adequately clear. I do believe I discussed
the possibility that the alleged "court order" *could* have been against
the ISP alone (which was <snipped> in your response); BUT, there are still
other issues at hand, which are entirely too lengthy to discuss here.
>
> I'm a firm believer in privacy. But there should be no expectation of
> privacy for the inflicting of harm on others. It is right and proper
> that the ISP be required to provide information about, according to
> Stevens' press release, the particular messages in question, and them
> alone. Assuming that that info did in fact confirm Pesach's sending of
> those messages, then a lawsuit is a right and proper next step.
"But there should be no expectation of privacy for the inflicting of harm
on others?" Mr. Baugh...where have you been all your life? First, this is
the *suspected* infliction of harm (the "harm" is yet to be proven);
secondly, in this country, we still have this antiquated notion of
"innocent until proven guilty," and a wide variety of privacy laws, not
only from state-to-state, but federally. If the ISP's records were,
somehow, opened for inspection (and I'm not saying they weren't), and
indicated that yes, the alleged spam *actually* bounced *through* the ISP,
then it *still* does NOT provide *access* to a specific individual's
account. I think you missed my point.
>
> > to answer. Period. Soooo...HOW did this alleged court order occur?
Under
>
> I assume that you're Pesach, since you've been unwilling or unable to
> provide any evidence that you've got any independent existence. If
> you're not, adjust pronouncs below to suit.
>
> JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU?
>
> This is a clear-cut allegation of forgery or other fraud in the
> process. That's actionable. Do you EVER stop to think about the
> consequences of such things? Ye gods, I hope you get nailed hard - the
> world has enough problems without this sort of sleazoid conduct.
Actually, Mr. Baugh, it isn't. Firstly: forgery is basically a criminal
count, not civil...be careful about what you say. Fraud can be either,
depending upon the nature thereof. Secondly: there is *no* indication at
this time that any of the plaintiffs' "names" (e-mail address, etc.), are
or were copyrighted; usually, in a complaint over TM infringement, the
plaintiff's counsel will identify the TM number of the trademarked "name,"
which was NOT done in this complaint - I do NOT know why, but it *is*
interesting; where's the trademark number?. If there IS no "trademark" on
any of the "names," then there is *nothing* clear-cut about it; and, as I
pointed out above, trademark protection and rights has generally not
extended to e-mail addresses. The "designation of origin" case, in NY, was
about a commonly-recognizable name: Planned Parenthood. Thirdly: for a
"misappropriation" claim to proceed, the plaintiffs must demonstrate that
a) as I said before, the names "used" are either legally protected by
copyright, or are "common-law," i.e., *household names*; that *actual*
economic harm occurred, and that it was done for a commercial purpose. You
have incorrectly inferred the meaning of the suit. IF a "forgery" had
occurred, why not simply take it to the appropriate law-enforcement agency?
Let them prosecute - at NO expense to the plaintiffs. But that is not the
case here...what exists is a lawsuit against a college student with a
homepage that, in April of this year, IIRC, was NOT remotely commercial;
just a collection of book reviews, reader comments, etc. As far as the
"libel" claim...as the e-mail content itself was not libelous, one must
assume that this is being extended to the alleged reaction from the
recipients. As I stated in one of my last posts, I find it extremely
curious that NONE of the alleged flaming responses were attached as
exhibits, to show cause for the complaint. Not one? Surely, if each of
the plaintiffs spent 100 hours, as claimed in the suit, answering all of
these "flaming responses," they must have ONE left around somewhere, that
could have been attached....the courts are rather fond of knowing that
lawsuits are not frivolous, (In fact, the NY State Bar *specifically*
provides for disciplinary action for any lawyer who knowingly brings a
frivolous case -it's called abuse of process) and a few examples of the
"damage" done to the plaintiffs would have assuaged any concern(s) that the
court might have had on this topic. Again...just curious as to the
omissions.
And, please...stop confusing me with Lattin. It's boring.
Hitch
Karen J. Cravens
In article <19970820042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
djorg...@aol.com (DJorgen104) wrote:
>they'll damn well be hearing from me again if they decide in Samsung's
>case that it is) As for violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust act, Lattin
Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you think "Samsung's case"
is?
-- Karen Cravens | Phoenyx PBeM RPG Listserver: majo...@phoenyx.net
sil...@phoenyx.net | http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/
| Home of free mailing lists for PBeM games
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Hitch
Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote in article
<5tg93g$g...@panix3.panix.com>...
> In article <01bcadc1$a79feaa0$b514a5ce@hitch>,
> Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > *Regardless* of whether or not
> >the intent was to obtain the ISP's records, or Lattin's records, there
has
> >to be cause. Moreover, the *distinction* _must_ be made IN COURT. And,
as
> >the alleged "Exhibit A" shows, the alleged spam passed through Lattin's
> >server, nothing more.
>
> particular port at that particular time?
Obviously, I haven't a clue; I do know some hackers, however, that can
*also* forge *that* information, as well, in addition to cloning return
paths. All they need to determine is that "x" has been logged onto port
1234567 for some number of hours....and away they go. It's their primary
mechanism for eluding detection.
>
> > US privacy laws regarding Electronic Communications
> >are *far* more stringent in protection of the entity AND the individual
> >than those in the UK (I have UK clients, so am *moderately* conversant
with
> >your privacy laws.)
>
> However, the privacy laws don't cover the question I referred to
> above. They cover the _contents_ of the email, but those contents
> were already known (since the recipient(s) had provided them).
Actually, most of them, including the federal ECPA, *do* cover that
question; it is not a matter, necessarily, of the "contents" of the mail,
but everything about an individual's account. It's not similar to
attorney-client privileged material, for instance, wherein if a third-party
"sees" it, the privilege is "broken" or rendered null and void.
>
> Seth
>
Hitch
No, Mr. Weholt, this is not some "rambling" conspiracy theory....although
I'm sure you would like for it to be such. I am simply pointing out the
numerous discrepancies between a) the recitations in the Complaint; b) the
allegations of the press release and c) the *actual* text and
*exhibit/evidence" of the Complaint itself.
Sorry if expecting you to actually *read* more than one paragraph is
construed as "rambling." I, too, am *perfectly* happy to have the courts
sort out the issue; and THEN, we shall see what we shall see, sir. I'm
also sorry if YOU don't find it odd that the "court order" is not mentioned
AT ALL in the Complaint; that NO "evidence" of Lattin's address or
participation deriving therefrom is attached to the Complaint; that a
press release posted yesterday on another ng states that the ISP was
"forced" to turn over the "data" by a NY court order (which is
*fascinating,* as the ISP is in New Jersey, NOT New York); and a few other
wee discrepancies that DO bother me. I do NOT think that there is some
court-based conspiracy; but I *do* think it is very, very easy to instigate
strong emotions and posts on any ng with a few carefully chosen words and
catch-phrases - especially when the alleged perpetrator is *not*
well-liked. And THAT is ONE of the points.
And why would you find it so offensive to request that, along with
EVERYTHING else, that the court order be posted here? A complaint such as
the one at hand is *nothing* more than a story from ONE side - that's it.
That, alone, is that to which the posters have been responding. It is NOT
canonical. And press releases, the last time *I* looked, were not
submitted upon penalty of perjury. So, a simple question: can we see the
court order, which is public record? Thank you.
Hitch
Michael R Weholt <awnb...@panix.com> wrote in article
<5tg85q$a...@news1.panix.com>...
> In article <01bcadc8$4b296600$b514a5ce@hitch>,
> "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >....the courts are rather fond of knowing that
> >lawsuits are not frivolous, (In fact, the NY State Bar *specifically*
> >provides for disciplinary action for any lawyer who knowingly brings a
> >frivolous case -it's called abuse of process) and a few examples of the
> >"damage" done to the plaintiffs would have assuaged any concern(s) that
the
> >court might have had on this topic. Again...just curious as to the
> >omissions.
>
> What is your point, exactly? I mean, your rambling seems to
> be on about something. What is it we are supposed to conclude? That
> the constitution has been raped? Look, there's nothing at all in what
> I've seen so far that seems in any way out of the ordinary. What are
> you saying? That the judge was somehow corrupt or incompetent for
> issuing the order? If it was an Order to Show Cause, the ISP had
> every right to come into court and Show Cause why the order should not
> be granted. Maybe it forgot. Maybe it didn't *want* to Show Cause why
> the order shouldn't be granted. Maybe the ISP couldn't come up with a
> Cause the judge would buy. Honestly, you make it sound like the Evil
> Plaintiffs somehow have bought and paid for the entire legal system.
>
> I'm perfectly satisfied to let the whole matter be sorted out
> before a judge and, if it comes to that, a jury. In fact, since
> courts in the U.S. are completely open (under normal circumstances), I
> may attend some hearings or pretrial conferences myself. Should be
> entertaining. The trial itself would be fascinating. If I end up
> attending, I'll surely let you and everybody else know if I see
> Mysterious Envelopes changing hands.
>
> --
> mrw
>
Gerry Saracco
Terry Austin wrote:
> Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if cyberMessiah *is* back.
He is Terry. He just hasn't bothered to post anything. He's too busy
going through the new Fuzion stuff, and looking for a job. I bet he's
waiting for everyone to think he's really gone, then deluge the ng with
his wonderful posts again
Terry Austin
djorg...@aol.com (DJorgen104) wrote:
>Now, if you took the entire thing into context at once, instead of in
>context paragraph-by-paragraph, it says :
Something other than what you claimed it said, which is what Jean
said.
You're a fucking idiot. Go away. At least be quite. Only a retard
discusses a lawsuit they're involved in on USENET. You're lawyer has
no doubt told you that, assuming you actually found one stupid enough
to take your case, but then, he's being paid by the hour.
Hitch
Dear Mr. Mason:
What a perfectly reasonable and sensible response.
And, at the end, what an *interesting* question.
I posted a note on r.a.s.f., pondering a specific item, which, I had noted,
no one else had questioned:
*HOW,* exactly (according to the press release by Mr. Miller, Esq., counsel
for plaintiffs), did Mr. Miller obtain a court order to open Lattin's ISP
records *before* a lawsuit was filed? HELLOOO? Does this bother *anybody*
out there? All of you who are familiar with privacy laws, and the Federal
ECPA (Electronic Communications Privacy Act), does this not start some
serious bell-ringing in your heads? Let's be explicit here: with the
exception of law-enforcement agencies, *who still have to show cause*, your
average everyday civil attorney cannot simply stroll into court and obtain
a court order, willy-nilly, without the other party having the opportunity
to answer. Period. Soooo...HOW did this alleged court order occur? Under
what premises? It doesn't make sense. The "Exhibit A" in question does
NOT show Lattin's account; merely his ISP, along with theta.pair.com, a
substantial re-mailer. So HOW did the "court order" get obtained? And, if
it was....where is the evidence that came therefrom that *caused* the suit
to be filed? If the plaintiffs were *successful* in obtaining a court
order to examine the ISP's records, and the ISP had a chance to respond,
that is one thing...but that still doesn't explain the when, where, whys
and hows of the subsequent *alleged* review of Lattin's files, if it
occurred. And, if it DIDN'T occur, and the only thing that was found was
this "Exhibit A," which shows *nothing....* well, I don't know about you,
but it frankly gives me the creepy-crawlies to think about *ANYBODY* with
enough money hiring an attorney to go rooting about in my ISP's records
(and mine) *without my knowledge*, or at least without a chance to argue
about it. Yessiree, *anybody* with enough money, versus a college
student...charming.
It doesn't matter whether or not you like or detest Lattin. You ought to
be looking FAR deeper into this suit...there are potentially far-reaching
issues at test here; and I, for one, am looking forward to seeing Lattin's
attorney's response to this (assuming that Lattin can afford legal counsel;
most college kids aren't rolling in it.....and lawsuits are bloody
expensive, sports fans. "Just" to get to the discovery phase is usually
around $50K...that's right, Fifty Thousand Dollars. And there is NO such
thing as a defense "contingency fee," because there is no $ in it.). I
hope all of you - especially college kids with homepages - are paying close
attention to this..some author, with money, doesn't like what you've done,
or what he/she *thinks* you *might* have done - are YOU going to have
$50-100K to defend yourselves? Are your parents going to happily kick in
the expense? Where are YOU going to get an attorney? Are YOU next, and
are all the ng's going to delight in it, just because YOU are not popular?
Wake up and smell the coffee....it's burning, and you're going to have to
drink it.
Hitch
Paul Mason <pan...@ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp> wrote in article
<5tbami$acj$1...@pixy.iq.nanzan-u.ac.jp>...
> Lance Tracy wrote in article <5t8o8q$v...@camel1.mindspring.com>...
> >My suggestion would be that, if you would like to trash Pesach, send
> >it to him directly and allow him to address your questions and/or
> >concerns. If you want to comment about the site, come to our page at
> >www.fantasylink.com (our temporary jumpsite), check out our setup and
> >address your comments and concerns to the editors of those
> >publications. This will allow the Sphere staff to address the specific
> >concerns you have about the content or presentation of our site in a
> >way that will make it more useful to our subscribers.
>
> This is a perfectly reasonable and sensible post.
>
> What a shame your boss isn't like that...
>
> Or maybe he really is the target of a conspiracy of mind-boggling
proportions. In which case we have to ask the question: why?
>
>
> Best wishes
> Paul Mason
>
> Outlaws/imazine http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge
>
>
DJorgen104
>Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you think "Samsung's case"
>is?
>
>
In light of the recent fake spam someone has posted in the name of Samsung
America, the FBI is supposedly trying to decide if there are any federal
laws apply which will allow them to investigate. In my case, they decided
it did not. If they decide that there are federal laws that allow them to
help Samsung, I'll be marching right into the local office to complain,
since they told me federal law didn't.
I did not mean case in a legal case.
Marcus L. Rowland
In article <01bcadc1$a79feaa0$b514a5ce@hitch>, Hitch
>You conveniently <snipped> the portion wherein I discussed the distinction
>between obtaining a court order against the ISP, versus an individual.
If you look closely, you will see that it is a comment FROM SOMEONE ELSE
on your original message, which for some reason wasn't cross-posted to
r.g.frp.m
Next time try reading the whole message.
Seth Breidbart
In article <01bcadee$b0d1ea60$7416a5ce@hitch>,
Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Seth Breidbart <se...@panix.com> wrote in article
><5tg93g$g...@panix3.panix.com>...
>> So the question then becomes, which user was logged on to that
>> particular port at that particular time?
>
>Obviously, I haven't a clue; I do know some hackers, however, that can
>*also* forge *that* information,
They need to seriously hack the provider's logs to do that.
> as well, in addition to cloning return
>paths. All they need to determine is that "x" has been logged onto port
>1234567 for some number of hours....and away they go. It's their primary
>mechanism for eluding detection.
>> However, the privacy laws don't cover the question I referred to
>> above. They cover the _contents_ of the email, but those contents
>> were already known (since the recipient(s) had provided them).
>Actually, most of them, including the federal ECPA, *do* cover that
>question; it is not a matter, necessarily, of the "contents" of the mail,
>but everything about an individual's account.
Really? Anybody on Panix can tell just when anybody else has been
logged in, using a few simple commands. (In fact, at many sites,
anybody on the entire Internet can learn if the person is logged in,
or when he last was, using "finger".)
> It's not similar to
>attorney-client privileged material, for instance, wherein if a third-party
>"sees" it, the privilege is "broken" or rendered null and void.
However, if I reveal the contents of your email to me, it's hard for
you to claim that you have any privacy rights remaining in it.
Seth
Terry Austin
Gerry Saracco <urbwa...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>He is Terry. He just hasn't bothered to post anything. He's too busy
>going through the new Fuzion stuff, and looking for a job. I bet he's
>waiting for everyone to think he's really gone, then deluge the ng with
>his wonderful posts again
Nah, he's already posting. He's just changed names and ISP (or
returned to an old account). It is left as an exercise in masochism
for the reader to figure out which of these clowns he is.
---------------------------------
-- Terry Austin, Grand Inquisitor, Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Fractal Mapper 95 now available!
Dreamtime, a CORPS supplement, coming soon in PDF!
Marilee J. Layman
In <01bcafb1$285a25c0$fb14a5ce@hitch>, "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>What disturbed me, again, was the "feeding frenzy" of the ng. If you will
>review my original postings, I was doing naught more than assuming,
>arguendo, the possible other side;
The thing is, I've seen Lattin do slimy things similar to the
accusation on the newsgroup and in mail. His history makes me believe
he is likely to have done what he's accused of doing. On the other
hand, I believe Stephens, the plaintiffs' attorney, is a truthful
competent person and I don't believe he would have filed a lawsuit if
he didn't believe he had the evidence to win the case. So you may
argue the other side all you want, it's unlikely to change my mind
before the trial when we can see all the evidence and witnesses.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
RELM Mu...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
**New** Web site: http://home.virtual-pc.com/outland/owc/index.html
AOL keyword: FR > Science Fiction > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)
Paul Mason
Hitch wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Mason:
>
> What a perfectly reasonable and sensible response.
>
> And, at the end, what an *interesting* question.
> It doesn't matter whether or not you like or detest Lattin. You ought
> to
> be looking FAR deeper into this suit...there are potentially
> far-reaching
> issues at test here;
> or what he/she *thinks* you *might* have done - are YOU going to have
> $50-100K to defend yourselves? Are your parents going to happily kick
> in
> the expense? Where are YOU going to get an attorney? Are YOU next,
> and
> are all the ng's going to delight in it, just because YOU are not
> popular?
> Wake up and smell the coffee....it's burning, and you're going to have
> to
> drink it.
I laughed like a drain at this pompous drivel.
'We are the world, we are the people...' they sang, and the idiots of
the world's most self-celebratory nation retreated further into the myth
that they were the only people on the planet.
In short, I couldn't give a toss what dumb litigation you choose to get
yourself involved in. I don't have an attorney, nor do I need one. Sure,
you can sue me, but I wish you the very best of luck either i)
prosecuting me through the Japanese courts (which are purpose designed
to discourage the sort of junk litigation that infests the US), or ii)
prosecuting me in absentia in the States and then trying to get an
extradition order for a civil case.
Coffee here tastes fine, by the way. I make a point of not reheating it,
as it spoils the flavour. Not that that matters for most American
coffee, of course, but I rather care for my French-Roast Mocha.
--
Best wishes
Paul Mason (http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge)
Ed Dravecky III
Hitch (hi...@primenet.com) wrote:
> Dear Ms. Geisler:
> I've interspersed comments, below:
> Hitch
<snip>
By the way, is there some reason you don't sign your messages
as "Robert J. Hitchens" when people ask who you are?
--
Ed Dravecky * Dallas Texas = This sigfile has been constructed
dsheldon(at)netcom(dot)com = of post-consumer recycled photons
Neale Davidson
>'We are the world, we are the people...' they sang, and the idiots of
>the world's most self-celebratory nation retreated further into the myth
>that they were the only people on the planet.
I am angered by this remark, as an 'American', and I ask for your
apology. Many Americans do not share the view that you have
so callously and incorrectly labeled onto 300 million people with
your insulting blanket statement.
Neale Davidson
Sphere Online Publications
Well, American been has a certain, hmm.. quality about it you don't get
anywhere else. Sometimes, I must admit it is the floating cockroaches in
the foam, but more than often it is that 'hard working' quality taste
that can only come from people who work so hard the sweat in the beer.
My original statement was some attempt at a joke -- I am trying to
lighten the conversation a little..
Pesach Lattin
Sphere Online Publications
Andy O'Neill wrote:
> In article <34004CF4...@fantasylink.com>, Sphere Online
> Publications <mas...@fantasylink.com> writes
> >Don't judge others until you have drunk beer from Milwaukee.
> >
>
> Beer? You call that beer?
>
> Don't write about beer until you've drunk Pedigree, Old Original and
> Directors'.
>
> Andy O'Neill
> Remove the x for email, similar to below
> Wargames site at www.l-25.demon.co.uk/index.htm
ed
Sphere Online Publications <mas...@fantasylink.com> spake on the day of
Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:02:12 -0400:
>Don't judge others until you have drunk beer from Milwaukee.
This won't help your argument. Many folk regard beer from Milwaukee as
not very good. If you want to taste good lager Czech or German or Dutch
beer (Budvar, Furstenburg or Grolsch as examples)
From my own country I can recommend Belhaven, Strathalbyn, Gillespies or
Caledonian breweries/beers.
Most American beers sold over here do so on a "Club" market, serious
alkies like me <joke> wouldn't touch them, viewing them as tasteless,
over gassy and bland.
ed
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marilee J. Layman
In <34005a44...@news.erols.com>, I wrote:
> I believe Stephens, the plaintiffs' attorney,
And I believe I spelled his name wrong. Sorry, Stevens. :)
James Wallis
In article <5tpgcl$lna$1...@news.iquest.net>, Neale Davidson
<nea...@iquest.net> wrote:
>
>>'We are the world, we are the people...' they sang, and the idiots of
>>the world's most self-celebratory nation retreated further into the myth
>>that they were the only people on the planet.
>
>I am angered by this remark, as an 'American', and I ask for your
>apology.
Only in America have I -- a product of one of the most upper-class
schools in Britain, and with an accent that most poeple describe as
"BBC", "cut-glass", "plum-up-arse" or "Stephen Fry" -- been mistaken for
an Australian. Repeatedly.
While Americans may not think they're the only people on the planet, a
lot of them seem to know buggerall about the rest of the planet. What
percentage of American teens was it that couldn't point out the USA on a
world map?
And while we're about it, can you name three non-American companies in
the RPG industry? Your starter for ten: one of them's in my sig.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Warhammer is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, used with permission
Terry Austin
Andy O'Neill <An...@l-25x.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <34004CF4...@fantasylink.com>, Sphere Online
>Publications <mas...@fantasylink.com> writes
>>Don't judge others until you have drunk beer from Milwaukee.
>>
>
>Beer? You call that beer?
>
>Don't write about beer until you've drunk Pedigree, Old Original and
>Directors'.
Hell, what's the big deal? It all comes from the same end of the
moose.
Doug Berry
>Only in America have I -- a product of one of the most upper-class
>schools in Britain, and with an accent that most poeple describe as
>"BBC", "cut-glass", "plum-up-arse" or "Stephen Fry" -- been mistaken for
>an Australian. Repeatedly.
We get a lot of Austrailian tourist these days. honestly, we see more
Aussies than Brits. To a lot of us, the accents are almost the same.
Since my father is English, and I was raised on British Television,
I'm better than most at seperating the accents, but even I slip up
sometimes.
>While Americans may not think they're the only people on the planet, a
>lot of them seem to know buggerall about the rest of the planet. What
>percentage of American teens was it that couldn't point out the USA on a
>world map?
Mind if I tell you the number of Brits I've had on my van who asked
about going to Disneyland "for the afternoon"? Disneyland is 450
miles from San Francisco. I see that kind of severe underestimating
of the size of the US all the time.
As for our educational system, I admit the UK has us beat cold.
>And while we're about it, can you name three non-American companies in
>the RPG industry? Your starter for ten: one of them's in my sig.
Games Workshop
Columbia Games
Ground Zero Games
CORE
By the way, you're welcome for all the equipment we gave you back in
1940 when you left your Army's equipment in France. And don't mention
the 60,000 American soldiers, sailors, and airmen who died defending
your island, and helping to liberate Europe.
--
+-------------------------------------------+
| Doug Berry dbe...@nospam.hooked.net |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html |
| (remove "nospam" to reply by mail) |
|-------------------------------------------|
| Gamer, Filker, Costumer.. I'm not a fan, |
| I'm just a pile of Fringe... |
+-------------------------------------------+
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
From: dbe...@nospam.hooked.net (Doug Berry)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons,rec.games.frp.industry,rec.games.frp.misc
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:51:24 GMT
Matthew R Blackwell
In <eVzwRVAF...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>In article <5tpgcl$lna$1...@news.iquest.net>, Neale Davidson
><nea...@iquest.net> wrote:
>>
>>>'We are the world, we are the people...' they sang, and the idiots
of
>>>the world's most self-celebratory nation retreated further into the
myth
>>>that they were the only people on the planet.
>>
>>I am angered by this remark, as an 'American', and I ask for your
>>apology.
>
>schools in Britain, and with an accent that most poeple describe as
>"BBC", "cut-glass", "plum-up-arse" or "Stephen Fry" -- been mistaken
>for an Australian. Repeatedly.
>
Australian, you need to keep that kangaroo from following you.
And put down the boomerang, too.
ed
The noble tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry Austin) spake on the day of Sun,
24 Aug 1997 23:07:35 GMT:
>Andy O'Neill <An...@l-25x.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <34004CF4...@fantasylink.com>, Sphere Online
>>Publications <mas...@fantasylink.com> writes
>>>Don't judge others until you have drunk beer from Milwaukee.
>>>
>>
>>Beer? You call that beer?
>>
>>Don't write about beer until you've drunk Pedigree, Old Original and
>>Directors'.
>
>Hell, what's the big deal? It all comes from the same end of the
>moose.
Considering that you have no use for beer, let us get on with our own
petty distinctions, and we'll leave you to drink Moose Urine.
Why DO you do that Terry ;)
James Wallis
In article <34022312...@news.interplay.com>, C...@Nospam.com wrote:
>Say, Jim,
That's 'James'.
>can you tell the difference between a Texan's accent from
>that of someone from Virginia?
I hate to break this to you, but Texas and Virginia are part of the same
country -- a place called America, where I believe you live. The UK and
Australia are on opposite sides of the globe, separated by everything
except a common language.
And incidentally, yes, I can recognise the difference. It's not hard.
>How about a British Colombians from a
>Californian's?
Again, they're part of the same landmass. And again, yes, I can tell the
difference, because it's a pretty obvious difference.
>We all speak the same language, but I'm sure you'll
>agree that no one can identify all the accents.
Round objects.
>So what if someone
>couldn't tell if you were Australian or English? Guess what? The guy
>probably didn't bother to think it through.
"The guy" in this case being an American. Actually many different
Americans. And your assertion that they "probably didn't bother to think
it through" surely proves my case.
>By the way, how many "native languages"
>are there in the UK? English, Welsh, Gaelic...
I think you'll find there's are a few native languages in the USA,
Canada and Mexico too: Spanish, French, and quite a few Native American
languages as well.
>Oh, and one last thing. So far as I've seen, the only non-american
>game company I can think of (RPG-wise - I won't go into Belgium or
>Austria's card market) that is successful here in the States is Games
>Workshop.
Which hasn't produced a RPG product in over five years.
>TSR had (has?) a UK division,
It's a distribution arm. Hasn't produced an RPG product in close on ten
years.
>and many great Boardgames and
>Railroad games come out of Germany.
As well as a number of fine RPGs. Which you can't name, evidently.
James Wallis
In article <3400d56d...@news.wenet.net>, Doug Berry
<dbe...@nospam.hooked.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:10:29 +0100, James Wallis
><Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>While Americans may not think they're the only people on the planet, a
>>lot of them seem to know buggerall about the rest of the planet. What
>>percentage of American teens was it that couldn't point out the USA on a
>>world map?
>
>Mind if I tell you the number of Brits I've had on my van who asked
>about going to Disneyland "for the afternoon"? Disneyland is 450
>miles from San Francisco. I see that kind of severe underestimating
>of the size of the US all the time.
I'd say that not being able to identify your own country on a map is, in
my humble opinion, rather different to not knowing the precise location
of a theme park in a foreign land.
>As for our educational system, I admit the UK has us beat cold.
>
>>And while we're about it, can you name three non-American companies in
>>the RPG industry? Your starter for ten: one of them's in my sig.
>
>Games Workshop
Doesn't do RPGs.
>Columbia Games
>Ground Zero Games
Doesn't do RPGs.
>By the way, you're welcome for all the equipment we gave you back in
>1940 when you left your Army's equipment in France. And don't mention
>the 60,000 American soldiers, sailors, and airmen who died defending
>your island, and helping to liberate Europe.
Fee fi, fo, fum. I smell a troll of an Englishman.
If you're going to start boasting about the US winning other people's
wars, how about acknowledging the fact that the countries that won the
American War of Independence for you were France, Spain, the Netherlands
and Russia? America's involvement in the liberation of Europe during
WWII can be seen as nothing more than payback for that.
Paul Mason
Neale Davidson wrote:
>
> >'We are the world, we are the people...' they sang, and the idiots of
> >the world's most self-celebratory nation retreated further into the
> myth
> >that they were the only people on the planet.
>
> I am angered by this remark, as an 'American', and I ask for your
> so callously and incorrectly labeled onto 300 million people with
> your insulting blanket statement.
I apologise to you, and all the other non-idiot Americans who were so
idiotic as not to notice that I specifically labelled such people as
idiots. On second thoughts, maybe I don't apologise to you, since you
failed to notice that.
But I do apologise to any non-idiot Americans for any offence caused.
Incidentally, if you are going to ask someone to apologise, it is
customary, even in America, to use their name. I only came upon your
complaint by accident.
Paul Mason
Sphere Online Publications wrote:
>
> I agree totally with Neale. Yes, we are Americans, who often believe
> that the whole world follows us, and that the whole world is us.
> However, we are a proud country because we have a proud history. We
> may
> have had some not so great times, some atrocious times, and some just
> plain boring times. However, all in all we are a hard working people,
> from all walks of life that tend to treat everyone as they come. We
> may
> not always be the most couth, but it is one of the few countries that
> the uncooth of all backgrounds, all religions and all beliefs can sit
> down, have a beer and watch the superbowl.
>
> Don't judge others until you have drunk beer from Milwaukee.
I have drunk beer from Milwaukee. It was crap.
I don't need to hear your witless testimony to the majesty of your
nation, either. I am well aware of the importance of the US. Most of my
friends in this country are from the US. I wouldn't dream of insulting
them. Nor would I dream of insulting the large number of Americans, who
are not idiots, and who have a sense of perspective. I would certainly
insult the attitude I referred to in the original post in Australians,
Britons, Chinese, Japanese, Peruvians or people of any other country. So
don't feel I'm being specially anti-American or anything.
I'm just calling idiots idiots.
And who wrote 'America Sucks'?
Wasn't me. Must have been one of the aforementioned idiots.
Gerry Saracco
James Wallis wrote:
> If you're going to start boasting about the US winning other people's
> wars, how about acknowledging the fact that the countries that won the
> American War of Independence for you were France, Spain, the Netherlands
> and Russia? America's involvement in the liberation of Europe during
> WWII can be seen as nothing more than payback for that.
Which would actually have started in WWI, although you could say Teddy
Roosevelt and others paid Spain back by 'liberating' Cuba before then :)
T Nielsen Hayden
In rec.arts.sf.fandom Hitch <hi...@primenet.com> wrote:
> Sorry if expecting you to actually *read* more than one paragraph is
> construed as "rambling." I, too, am *perfectly* happy to have the courts
> sort out the issue; and THEN, we shall see what we shall see, sir. I'm
> also sorry if YOU don't find it odd that the "court order" is not mentioned
> AT ALL in the Complaint; that NO "evidence" of Lattin's address or
> participation deriving therefrom is attached to the Complaint; that a
> press release posted yesterday on another ng states that the ISP was
> "forced" to turn over the "data" by a NY court order (which is
> *fascinating,* as the ISP is in New Jersey, NOT New York); and a few other
> wee discrepancies that DO bother me. I do NOT think that there is some
> court-based conspiracy; but I *do* think it is very, very easy to instigate
> strong emotions and posts on any ng with a few carefully chosen words and
> catch-phrases - especially when the alleged perpetrator is *not*
> well-liked. And THAT is ONE of the points.
Cripes, look at that! I haven't seen such a perfect specimen of
cranky *emphasis* and HIGH DUDGEON in ages!
Who says Formalism is dead?
:: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::
:: t...@panix.com ::: fwa ::
Paul Mason
Doug Berry wrote:
> Mind if I tell you the number of Brits I've had on my van who asked
> about going to Disneyland "for the afternoon"? Disneyland is 450
> miles from San Francisco. I see that kind of severe underestimating
> of the size of the US all the time.
People from small countries are not used to big countries. People from
big countries are not used to small countries. So what? I'm sure you'd
find a similar reaction in Japanese tourists, who come from a small
country with rapid, efficient public transport.
The point was about those Americans who assume that everyone else on the
Internet is American. To which James added the point of those Americans
who assume that because he speaks English with a non-American accent, he
must be Australian.
Robert Sneddon
In article <dsheldonE...@netcom.com>
dshe...@netcom.com "Ed Dravecky III" writes:
> Which part of "lease" did you folks not understand? :>
We paid you back, don't worry. We also gave you some bits of the
British Empire you're still holding on to...
--
To reply via email, remove the string "_nospam_" from my address.
Robert (nojay) Sneddon
Mathew A. Hennessy
In article <340387FA...@tcp-ip.or.jp>,
Paul Mason <pan...@tcp-ip.or.jp> wrote:
>
>People from small countries are not used to big countries. People from
>big countries are not used to small countries. So what? I'm sure you'd
This reminds me of a favorite joke:
'What's the difference between an Englishman and and American?'
'The Englishman thinks that 100 miles is a long way, and
the American thinks that 100 years is a long time.'
>Paul Mason (http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge)
Share and enjoy,
--
- Matt (henn...@thoughtcrime.com)
<em><a href="http://www.cloud9.net/~hennessy">My mildly useful page</a></em>
unix slave.
ed
The noble deat...@stic.net (Deathdog) spake on the day of Wed, 27 Aug
1997 11:20:33 -0500:
>C...@Nospam.com wrote:
>
>>How about a British Colombians from a
>>Californian's?
>
>British Colombian? Is that a Brit stuck in a
>3rd world South American Nation?
See you, Mr so-called Deathdog, if you ever make it over this side of
the Atlantic we must all of us in Europe move Heaven and Earth to ensure
you are sent home forthwith.
ed
Besides, I am led to believe that that country has a byrgeoning economy.
Of Sorts
James Wallis
In article <dsheldonE...@netcom.com>, Ed Dravecky III
<dshe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Paul Mason (pan...@tcp-ip.or.jp) wrote:
>> You aren't aware that we had to pay for it, then?
>> Britain was on rationing for years after the war, and part of the
>> parlous economic state was thanks to your wonderful country's insistence
>> on paying for the 'lend lease' material that you send us before you
>> summoned up the balls to get stuck in.
>
>Which part of "lease" did you folks not understand? :>
We understood "lease" perfectly, thanks. Every American who has
subsequently crowed about all the equipment that was "given" to the
Yurrupeens (and, as people tend to forget, Iran and Iraq as well), such
as the previous poster, seems to have a shakier grasp on the idea.
Gerry Saracco
Paul Mason wrote:
> As James pointed out. ONLY IN AMERICA. The rest of the planet can make a
> distinction; the US so often doesn't bother. And as is well known,
> despite having a population five times greater than the UK, the USA has
> far less variation in accent than the UK.
Don't lump us all in a broad category Paul. Not all of us are ignorant.
Also, are you so sure that the UK has more accent variation thatn the US?
> I may not be confident that I am able to distinguish a Texan from a
> Virginian, but I could distinguish them from a New Yorker, a Californian
> (most of the time) and certainly from a Canadian-influenced Northerner
> such as the north of Minnesota. If I can do it, having never been to the
> States, I'm sure James can.
What type of New Yorker? There is New York City, where I live [which has
more than one 'accent' in itself], Long Island [yes, there are long
islanders who speak different than us], and upstate New York [I have
friends who live up in Rochester, and some of their speech differs from
mine]
There is alot more variation to american speech patterns than you think.
Doug Berry
On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:43:52 +0100, James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <34022312...@news.interplay.com>, C...@Nospam.com wrote:
>>can you tell the difference between a Texan's accent from
>>that of someone from Virginia?
>
>I hate to break this to you, but Texas and Virginia are part of the same
>country -- a place called America, where I believe you live. The UK and
>Australia are on opposite sides of the globe, separated by everything
>except a common language.
Shows what you know; many Texans and Virginians will barely
acknowledge that they are members of the same country.
>And incidentally, yes, I can recognise the difference. It's not hard.
How about a Georgian from a Floridian? Northern Claifornia from
Southern? This differences are very important to us.
>>How about a British Colombians from a
>>Californian's?
>
>Again, they're part of the same landmass. And again, yes, I can tell the
>difference, because it's a pretty obvious difference.
But very different countries. Since The highlands of Scotland and
London are on the same landmass, I should just assume that highlanders
and London dwellers are just the same? Sorry, James, but you are
talking about 9.4 million square miles of territory.
Please explain the difference between a Claifornia accent and a
British Columbian's.
>>So what if someone
>>couldn't tell if you were Australian or English? Guess what? The guy
>>probably didn't bother to think it through.
>
>"The guy" in this case being an American. Actually many different
>Americans. And your assertion that they "probably didn't bother to think
>it through" surely proves my case.
So I should be extremely upset that when I visited England nobody
bothered to figure out where I was from? I was called "Yank"
repeatedly. To someone who isn't from the Atlantic Northeast, that is
incorrect. To someone living in the South (as I was at the time) it
is an incredible insult.
You couldn't politely say "Actually, I'm British."
>>By the way, how many "native languages"
>>are there in the UK? English, Welsh, Gaelic...
>
>I think you'll find there's are a few native languages in the USA,
>Canada and Mexico too: Spanish, French, and quite a few Native American
>languages as well.
The only native French speakers in North America live over 2000 miles
from me. In San Francisco, I hear Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, and
Russian on a regular basis. Makes life interesting.
BTW: Still waiting for a thank-you for the lend-lease program. We
didn't have to bail you out. We didn't have to sell you oil and gas
at a loss. We didn't have to commit troops to your defense. But we
did.
Kirsten M. Berry
Didja hear what dbe...@nospam.hooked.net (Doug Berry) said?
}On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:43:52 +0100, James Wallis
}<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<chop>
}>I think you'll find there's are a few native languages in the USA,
}>Canada and Mexico too: Spanish, French, and quite a few Native American
}>languages as well.
}
}The only native French speakers in North America live over 2000 miles
}from me. In San Francisco, I hear Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, and
}Russian on a regular basis. Makes life interesting.
You forgot Tagalog, husband mine....
--
Kirsten M Berry -- square peg in a round planet -- ki...@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~kirib/ Home of the Samurai Webmistress
<*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*>
"Don't you dare call me irrational - you KNOW that makes me crazy!"
-Dr. Niles Crane, "Frasier"
Kevin J. Brennan
Michael R Weholt wrote:
> Yes, Texas is the Lone Star State, but there is no "clause"
> permitting it to secede from the Union at will. No state can do so
> without the consent of the U.S. Congress, assuming they can do it at
> all -- legally, that is. Apart from the dislikelihood of such a
> clause, all states are subject to the U.S. Constitution. The 14th
> Amendment reads, in part, "No State shall make or enforce any law
> which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
> United States." Inasmuch as Texans are citizens of the U.S., it seems
> to me withdrawing from the U.S. would constitute an abridgement of the
> privileges or immunities of those U.S. citizens and this would
> therefore preclude any secession. I'm sure there are Constitutional
> Scholars out there who can give you the Real Argument, or at least
> a more direct one, but I think I can assure you that no state has a
> weasel-out clause -- only the U.S. Congress can make such decisions --
> in spite of what the "Republic of Texas" folks would like you to
> believe.
>
> --
> mrw
I think the original poster was confused. You're right, Texas doesn't
have any special right to secede. It has the right to break itself into
up to five states WITHIN the U.S. without the consent of Congress.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Help defend Humanity against the greatest threat of all:
Absorption. Assimilation. Transformation.
Change.
Enter the Fourth Millennium at:
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David E Romm
In article <5u1pv1$b34$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, ddda...@lpl.arizona.edu wrote:
> Tor Iver Wilhelmsen (to...@online.no) wrote:
> : IIRC, Texas is "The Lone Star State", and is the only state that has a
> : clause in its agreement to join the Union that it can secede at will.
> : This is a different relationship than Virginia (one of the "13") has.
>
> Back when I lived in Texas for a few years, this was a favorite fact of
> the natives. No one was clear on just where this clause was, but the
> usual consensus was that a special treaty of some sort accompanied the
> admission into the Union.
Correct. The first 'treaty' had this clause in it. But subsequent
documents dropped it. The matter wasn't in doubt even by the Civil War.
--
Shockwave radio: Science Fiction/Science Fact/Weirdness Unbound
http://www.visi.com/~romm
Saturday 8/30 6pm: The 1995 Minicon Opening Ceremonies
Ray Radlein
Neil Ira Belsky wrote:
>
> ed wrote:
> >
> > tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry Austin) spake:
> > >
> > >That's the whole point, ed. I *don't* drink it. Why do you?
> >
> > Because it's finest Moose Urine, chosen from the selected Mooses
> > of 5 continents, (or 5 in continents - ed's wife), filtered
> > through only the cleanest underpants and chilled to perfection.
> >
> I'll stick to "Bear Whiz" beer.
> "It's in the water. That's why it's yellow."
And unlike that fancy foreign Moose Urine, Bear Whiz Beer is made right
here in the good old United Snakes of America, in the heartland hamlet
of Animal, Missouri.
- Ray R.
--
*********************************************************************
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?"
"The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to RULE THE SEVAGRAM!"
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
*********************************************************************
Terry Austin
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <34022312...@news.interplay.com>, C...@Nospam.com wrote:
>>Say, Jim,
>
>That's 'James'.
OK, Jimbo.
>
>>can you tell the difference between a Texan's accent from
>>that of someone from Virginia?
>
>I hate to break this to you, but Texas and Virginia are part of the same
>country -- a place called America, where I believe you live. The UK and
>Australia are on opposite sides of the globe, separated by everything
>except a common language.
Well, now, Mr. Education and Travel, in point of fact, Texas and
Virginia are rather more different from each other than Brit and
Aussie (and yes, I *can* tell the difference - can you tell Aussie
from Kiwi? I used to be able to, when I worked with guys from both
countries in the same shop). To present a more accurate question, can
you tell the difference between the Great Midwest (say, Nebraska) and
(southern - north is different) California? Most natives of either
can't. I can.
>
>And incidentally, yes, I can recognise the difference. It's not hard.
>
The hard part is understanding what they're saying, since it's
practically a different language.
>>So what if someone
>>couldn't tell if you were Australian or English? Guess what? The guy
>>probably didn't bother to think it through.
>
>"The guy" in this case being an American. Actually many different
>Americans. And your assertion that they "probably didn't bother to think
>it through" surely proves my case.
You're case being that alt.peeves is full? Somebody pee in your
cheerios this morning?
NowImagine
Actually you cannot link to any site you wish. If such a link constitutes
an implied endorsement of your site, the site owner's permission is
required. And if such a link involves a trademark/copyright such as the
linked company's industry name and product names a violation can occur
wherein the plantiff can assert that use of their trademarks by a
disreputable site damages their reputation, a tangible property whose
diminishment provides grounds whereupon compensation can be pursued.
Suffice-to-say, be on good terms with the site owners you link to.
ed
>Well, now, Mr. Education and Travel, in point of fact, Texas and
>Virginia are rather more different from each other than Brit and
>Aussie (and yes, I *can* tell the difference - can you tell Aussie
>from Kiwi?
Comparing who with who A Brit from Doric Aberdeenshire ain't going to
have that much in common with an Asian Aussie.
It's just a big diverse place.
ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
edh...@equus.demon.meatblock.co.uk | EAT AT | __/ / / / /
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk | JANGIR'S | @____/ o / / / /
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, C&S, | 5 Mins From | \ __/ / / / / /
Conspiring Rodents and other stuff | This .Sig | \ / / / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------------
REMOVE "meatblock" from reply to address. Sorry, SPAMers got to me
Deathdog
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk wrote:
> See you, Mr so-called Deathdog, if you ever make it over this side of
> the Atlantic we must all of us in Europe move Heaven and Earth to ensure
> you are sent home forthwith.
>
> ed
> Besides, I am led to believe that that country has a byrgeoning economy.
> Of Sorts
Hey, I did go over to that side of the Atlantic and they sent me back.
Fucking Euro-trash. Just when I was finally getting some good beer.
--
***********************************************************
Brad Everman aka Deathdog, Mac programmer & Grammy-Winning Rap Artist
"To make it as a basketball player you have to have eyes."
---Hubie Brown
Spike
Terry Austin (tau...@hyperbooks.com) wrote:
: Paul Mason <pan...@tcp-ip.or.jp> wrote:
:
: >As James pointed out. ONLY IN AMERICA. The rest of the planet can make a
: >distinction; the US so often doesn't bother. And as is well known,
: >despite having a population five times greater than the UK, the USA has
: >far less variation in accent than the UK.
: Bullshit. I've met people from Georgia I damn near couldn't even
: communicate with. Funniest thing I ever heard was a Georgian and a
: Brit try to talk to each other. They literally had to have an
: interpreter.
The same thing could be said for a Cockney, and Lancastrian, a Yorkshiremen,
a Glaswegian and a Geordie trying to talk to each other. And the distance
between London and Glasgow is only about 700 Miles....
Throw in a cornishman and a welshman for even more variation in accents and
confusion in the conversation.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5...@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5...@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "I'm alive!!! I can touch! I can taste! |
|Andrew Halliwell | I can SMELL!!! KRYTEN!!! Unpack Rachel and |
|Principal subjects in:- | get out the puncture repair kit!" |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | Arnold Judas Rimmer- Red Dwarf |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sally Aaron
Ray Radlein wrote:
> >
> > British Empire you're still holding on to...
>
>
> - Ray R.
No, Ray, you can't do that! Send him to Columbia, yes, send him back to
the UK, no! Otherwise, just put up with him, it's not like he spends
all THAT much time in Atlanta, is it?
--
*********************************************************************
Everything in the world is controlled by a small evil group to which,
unfortunately, no one we know belongs.
*********************************************************************
Lance Tracy
to...@online.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen) wrote:
>It's funny: The Soviet Union apparently _had_ a clause that allowed
>any of its states to secede - of course, any state that did would
>probably promptly be "recommended" to reconsider. :-) When the states
>_did_ start to secede (in 1989) the political climate was a tad
>different than under Stalin/Brezhnev...
That whole thing must be a policy left over from the guy who advised
the Polish Diet to require 100% agreement for ratification of any
changes, policies, or activities.
(Before some history nut grabs the Flame gun...I know it would be
impossible, due to the amount of time the elapsed between the
establishment of the Polish Diet and the organization of the Soviet
states...maybe it was a great, great grandson...or just a genetic
quirk in the works...It just seems funny that those two facts *could*
be related.)
Lance Tracy
Chief Editor
Sphere Online Publications
>What is the status for the "bought" state (Alaska), and for the "State
>Formerly Known As A Sovereign Kingdom" (Hawaii)?
>--
>Becky!, Agent and Opera - now what was it I needed Netscape for?
ed
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:38:23 -0500, deat...@stic.net (Deathdog)
wrote:
>edh...@equus.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> See you, Mr so-called Deathdog, if you ever make it over this side of
>> the Atlantic we must all of us in Europe move Heaven and Earth to ensure
>> you are sent home forthwith.
>Hey, I did go over to that side of the Atlantic and they sent me back.
>Fucking Euro-trash. Just when I was finally getting some good beer.
Aha !! Our secret society is even more efficient than I had dared
hope.
Seriously, major bummer. Deutsche Bier is bloody marvellous. Terry
they have purity laws that INSIST that only the finest, organic,
"untainted by chemicals" Mooses are used in it's production
Rhodri James
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <3400d56d...@news.wenet.net>, Doug Berry
> <dbe...@nospam.hooked.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:10:29 +0100, James Wallis
>> <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> While Americans may not think they're the only people on the planet, a
>>> lot of them seem to know buggerall about the rest of the planet. What
>>> percentage of American teens was it that couldn't point out the USA on
>>> a world map?
>> Mind if I tell you the number of Brits I've had on my van who asked
>> about going to Disneyland "for the afternoon"? Disneyland is 450 miles
>> from San Francisco. I see that kind of severe underestimating of the
>> size of the US all the time.
> I'd say that not being able to identify your own country on a map is, in
> my humble opinion, rather different to not knowing the precise location
> of a theme park in a foreign land.
On the other hand it is true that to most British folk, distances greater
than 100 miles tend to be rather vaguely thought of as "far". On the third
hand, Statesiders seem to find spans of time longer than 100 years
similarly hard to grasp.
>> As for our educational system, I admit the UK has us beat cold.
Regrettably the word is "had", not "has".
[Troll and response snipped.]
--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses
If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them
... The trick is to remember which way is up
Marilee J. Layman
In <3405C0...@spinach.xylogics.com>, Roger Christie
<rchr...@spinach.xylogics.com> wrote:
>Paul Mason wrote:
>> And who wrote 'America Sucks'?
>>
>> Wasn't me. Must have been one of the aforementioned idiots.
>>
>
>Well gee. You're a right charmer, aren't you?
The person who changed the thread title was "Sphere Online," so I
think it's likely many of us might consider "idiot" appropriate.
--
Marilee J. Layman Co-Leader, The Other*Worlds*Cafe
RELM Mu...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group
**New** Web site: http://home.virtual-pc.com/outland/owc/index.html
AOL keyword: FR > Science Fiction > The Other*Worlds*Cafe (listbox)
BlackIce
Rhodri James wrote:
> On the third hand, Statesiders seem to find spans of time longer than 100 years
> similarly hard to grasp.
I agree Rhodri.
I was in the US 3 weeks ago, in a place called Baton Rouge, on the
Mississippi in Louisana (sp?).
Halo and I were on our way to see a "Colonial Home" with a coachload of
other folk (mostly Americans).
As we rolled up to the gates of the mansion, our guide said :
"Now the home we are going to see now, is 200, yes folks, 200 years
old."
<Many goshes, gasps and whoops of gee whizz etc from the yankee folks>
<I rolled my eyes at Halo and unfortunately the guide saw that we
weren't really all that impressed.>
Getting off the coach, the guide pulled us aside for a little "chat".
"I know you folks in the UK have chamber-pots under your beds (we do?)
older than this house or indeed the USA, but you've got to remember that
200 years is a BIG DEAL to a country only colonised 500 years ago. Just
try and look interested ok ?"
"Sure, no problems", said we.
"Besides I'm half Arab and we had Reading / Writing and Counting long
before you", he said with a mischevious wink".
So, I guess, it's just a case of perspective. His comment certainly made
me think.
I guess we should all be thankful for what we've got (historically
architectually speaking).
--
Warmest Regards,
BlackIce
*********************************************************************
* I'm waiting for the night to fall................................ *
*********************************************************************
Rhodri James
Nathan Keir Edel <ed...@best.com_SPAMBLOCK> wrote:
> In rec.games.frp.misc Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <to...@online.no> wrote: TIW%
> IIRC, Texas is "The Lone Star State", and is the only state that has a
> TIW% clause in its agreement to join the Union that it can secede at
> will. TIW% This is a different relationship than Virginia (one of the
> "13") has.
> May have originally, hadn't mattered since 1865. We settled this one
> then, to the cost of many tens of thousands of lives.
In practice this is true. In theory, I believe Texas' right of seccession
still exists. No one wants to put this, though.
> One Nation, Indivisible.
Oh, the temptation to treat it as such!
--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses
If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them
... Lucy and Ethel?
Paul MacDonald
BlackIce wrote:
> Halo and I were on our way to see a "Colonial Home" with a coachload of
> other folk (mostly Americans).
>
> As we rolled up to the gates of the mansion, our guide said :
>
> "Now the home we are going to see now, is 200, yes folks, 200 years
> old."
You're lucky they didn't drag you on a tour of one of the "Colonial"
homes in the subdivisions around here. Some are less than 1 year old.
Don't you hate it when architectural styles get named after historical
periods? I wonder how many Colonial Tudors there are?
Paul
Ray Radlein
Terry Austin wrote:
>
> Ray Radlein <r...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:
>
> >And unlike that fancy foreign Moose Urine, Bear Whiz Beer is made right
> >here in the good old United Snakes of America, in the heartland hamlet
> >of Animal, Missouri.
> >
> reason why all those hillbillies smile all the time.
Perhaps because *they* caught all of the Firesign Theatre references in
the last two messages?
Ray Radlein
Sally Aaron wrote:
>
> Ray Radlein wrote:
> >
> > Robert Sneddon wrote:
> > >
> > > We paid you back, don't worry. We also gave you some bits of the
> > > British Empire you're still holding on to...
> >
> > We'd be happy to send Elton John back, if you insist.
>
> to the UK, no! Otherwise, just put up with him, it's not like he
> spends all THAT much time in Atlanta, is it?
Actually, he does spend a fair amount of time here. He lives not too far
from Lennox Mall and Phipps Plaza (he also spends a lot of time abroad,
as well).
If I could have been certain that Mick Jagger still lived over here, I
would have used him as an example instead.